Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
Totally agree about 6 seconds for speed to build up but disagree about radio reliability. In this day and age there is zero reason a radio in the glider should not be as reliable as the home TV, the car radio of the wifi in the house. I often operate in controlled airspace (D and C) and never a problem - almost always 5 occasionally 4. If you have a Microair playing up then I can tell you how to fix up 95% of the microair problems over the phone and job will take 10 minutes and you need no skills. It is a matter of winding the little pots on the side of radio back and forward many times and return to original spot and bingo the radio bursts into life for the next 9 months. It is 7 years since I sold a Microair having chosen to sell Xcom which have no such pots - it is done in software on the front face. This method also works with Becker 3201 intercoms. Ian McPhee PS If you have one of those early boom mics of mine (9mmdia and goes floppy) I will sort you out with a new one at a real good price. Have made over 2300mics so far and I do not want to hear of bad reports on those first 350 boom mics. On 28 May 2010 12:57, Texler, Michael michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.auwrote: Isn't radio just the least unreliable method? Radios are more likely to fail than controls, I would trust my control linkages more than the radio. Wing waggling at speeds close to the stall is likely to cause more exciting problems than a dud radio. I certainly hope no-one has let their speed drop that far and remained on the wire. If speed is slow on the launch, you should lower the nose prior to signalling. The thing that kills people on wire launching is spinning off the wire (i.e. not having enough airspeed prior to turning after a cable break). It takes up to six seconds from when the cable breaks to gaining safe speed after nosing over. __ _ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
Opps I think it was Sir Charles Kingsford Smith said the only hard thing about flying is the ground and there is another good one straight ahead to the hospital, left or right to the cemetery Keep those in mind when faced with quick difficult flying decisions IM ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
I rather like takeoffs are optional - landings are compulsory. From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ian Mc Phee Sent: Saturday, 29 May 2010 23:22 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals Opps I think it was Sir Charles Kingsford Smith said the only hard thing about flying is the ground and there is another good one straight ahead to the hospital, left or right to the cemetery Keep those in mind when faced with quick difficult flying decisions IM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2890 - Release Date: 05/29/10 06:17:00 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
Michael Shirley wrote: And according to BGA winching in the UK is 7 times more dangerous than aerotow - from memory that's 7 times as many deaths as from aero towing. Michael As a innocent bystander, whose club uses winch launching, I think both of these statements really require further development and factual support before they can be beneficial to the discussion. It is helpful, indeed essential to know the ratio of winch to aerotow launches for the above figures to be worthy of serious consideration. I'm surprised that they've been omitted. Terry ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
On Fri, 2010-05-28 at 14:22 +1000, Mike Borgelt wrote: snip Stalling has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with angle of attack which is controlled by the pilot by where he puts the stick in the fore and aft sense. When that sinks in to everyone including instructors we might get somewhere. Unfortunately we do not usually equip our gliders with a means to indicate to the pilot the angle of attack. In free flight at a particular (fore aft) CG the stalling angle of attack will correspond to a particular stick position but during a winch launch the tension in the cable causes a pitch up moment early on and a pitch down moment later in the launch so the position of the stick at the stall would vary. It takes very little time to go from a non stalling AoA to a stalled AoA as the glider doesn't have a high moment of inertia about the spanwise axis and the elevator control is usually quite powerful. Having the trim jump out of the full forward detent to full aft or close to it while holding back pressure on the stick will probably do nicely to initiate a flick roll, particularly for the inexperienced. It might be appropriate to re consider the common teaching of forward trim for winch launching. I have heard two justifications for this the first is that it helps get the nose down in the event of a cable break and the second that it makes the pilot aware of the load on the wings during the launch. I don't think either of these reasons is valid. Logically the trim should be set at about where we would put it when on downwind. My personal opinion on winching is that it is a cheap and nasty way to get airborne with emphasis on the nasty. The only reason it is tolerated is because it is cheap. From the BGA statistics winch launching has been much more dangerous than aero tow but it ought to be possible to improve on the past performances. Ken ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
May I refer you to Soaring Australia, November 2007, for the full article and correct my error it states the .the fatal and serious injury rate is eight times that on aerotow launches. Michael _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Terry Neumann Sent: Friday, 28 May 2010 3:56 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals Michael Shirley wrote: And according to BGA winching in the UK is 7 times more dangerous than aerotow - from memory that's 7 times as many deaths as from aero towing. Michael As a innocent bystander, whose club uses winch launching, I think both of these statements really require further development and factual support before they can be beneficial to the discussion. It is helpful, indeed essential to know the ratio of winch to aerotow launches for the above figures to be worthy of serious consideration. I'm surprised that they've been omitted. Terry ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
On Fri, 2010-05-28 at 15:26 +0930, Terry Neumann wrote: Michael Shirley wrote: And according to BGA winching in the UK is 7 times more dangerous than aerotow - from memory that's 7 times as many deaths as from aero towing. Michael As a innocent bystander, whose club uses winch launching, I think both of these statements really require further development and factual support before they can be beneficial to the discussion. It is helpful, indeed essential to know the ratio of winch to aerotow launches for the above figures to be worthy of serious consideration. I'm surprised that they've been omitted. The following excerpts are from a BGA document from 2008 entitled safewinchguidance.pdf. All UK winch accidents since 1974 have been surveyed. The average frequency of winch accidents is 1 in every 13000 launches. The volume of winch launching is such, however, that there were 731 winch accidents from 1974 to 2006. These accidents included 35 deaths and 72 serious injuries for an average of one death and two serious injuries per year. In that period winch accidents accounted for 273 written off or substantially damaged gliders. Although the glider fleet has changed materially and powerful winches have become commonplace the rates and the severity of wire launch accidents have stayed the same throughout the period 1974-2005. The glider crash rate on winch launches is 50% higher than on aerotow launches but the fatal and serious injury rate on winch launches is eight times that on aerotow launches. Inadvertent stalling and spinning, winch launches, and collisions are the three main contributors to fatal and serious injury gliding accidents. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
Thanks Kenneth That doc makes for pretty salutary reading. On 28/05/2010, at 16:56 , Kenneth Jason Caldwell wrote: On Fri, 2010-05-28 at 15:26 +0930, Terry Neumann wrote: Michael Shirley wrote: And according to BGA winching in the UK is 7 times more dangerous than aerotow - from memory that's 7 times as many deaths as from aero towing. Michael As a innocent bystander, whose club uses winch launching, I think both of these statements really require further development and factual support before they can be beneficial to the discussion. It is helpful, indeed essential to know the ratio of winch to aerotow launches for the above figures to be worthy of serious consideration. I'm surprised that they've been omitted. The following excerpts are from a BGA document from 2008 entitled safewinchguidance.pdf. All UK winch accidents since 1974 have been surveyed. The average frequency of winch accidents is 1 in every 13000 launches. The volume of winch launching is such, however, that there were 731 winch accidents from 1974 to 2006. These accidents included 35 deaths and 72 serious injuries for an average of one death and two serious injuries per year. In that period winch accidents accounted for 273 written off or substantially damaged gliders. Although the glider fleet has changed materially and powerful winches have become commonplace the rates and the severity of wire launch accidents have stayed the same throughout the period 1974-2005. The glider crash rate on winch launches is 50% higher than on aerotow launches but the fatal and serious injury rate on winch launches is eight times that on aerotow launches. Inadvertent stalling and spinning, winch launches, and collisions are the three main contributors to fatal and serious injury gliding accidents. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering the nose. If only ever this lesson was learned, then accidents/incidents would drop dramatically. At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked at the simulations http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would definitely feature in our accident stats. Dave From: Texler, Michael michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Fri, 28 May, 2010 12:57:55 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals Isn't radio just the least unreliable method? Radios are more likely to fail than controls, I would trust my control linkages more than the radio. Wing waggling at speeds close to the stall is likely to cause more exciting problems than a dud radio. I certainly hope no-one has let their speed drop that far and remained on the wire. If speed is slow on the launch, you should lower the nose prior to signalling. The thing that kills people on wire launching is spinning off the wire (i.e. not having enough airspeed prior to turning after a cable break). It takes up to six seconds from when the cable breaks to gaining safe speed after nosing over. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
At 01:29 PM 28/05/2010, you wrote: Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering the nose. If only ever this lesson was learned, then accidents/incidents would drop dramatically. At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked at the simulations http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htmhttp://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would definitely feature in our accident stats. Dave Stalling has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with angle of attack which is controlled by the pilot by where he puts the stick in the fore and aft sense. When that sinks in to everyone including instructors we might get somewhere. Next time you are at a safe altitude while local soaring get yourself a little extra speed, nose up and when stabilised at 45 degrees nose up hold the stick in that position and see what happens. Report back on your findings. You won't stall. The glider may go over the top of the parabola at lower than the 1g stalling speed but won't stall unless you pull the stick back. It takes very little time to go from a non stalling AoA to a stalled AoA as the glider doesn't have a high moment of inertia about the spanwise axis and the elevator control is usually quite powerful. Having the trim jump out of the full forward detent to full aft or close to it while holding back pressure on the stick will probably do nicely to initiate a flick roll, particularly for the inexperienced. My personal opinion on winching is that it is a cheap and nasty way to get airborne with emphasis on the nasty. The only reason it is tolerated is because it is cheap. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
And according to BGA winching in the UK is 7 times more dangerous than aerotow - from memory that's 7 times as many deaths as from aero towing. Michael -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Friday, 28 May 2010 2:22 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals At 01:29 PM 28/05/2010, you wrote: Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering the nose. If only ever this lesson was learned, then accidents/incidents would drop dramatically. At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked at the simulations http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htmhttp://www.glidin g.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would definitely feature in our accident stats. Dave Stalling has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with angle of attack which is controlled by the pilot by where he puts the stick in the fore and aft sense. When that sinks in to everyone including instructors we might get somewhere. Next time you are at a safe altitude while local soaring get yourself a little extra speed, nose up and when stabilised at 45 degrees nose up hold the stick in that position and see what happens. Report back on your findings. You won't stall. The glider may go over the top of the parabola at lower than the 1g stalling speed but won't stall unless you pull the stick back. It takes very little time to go from a non stalling AoA to a stalled AoA as the glider doesn't have a high moment of inertia about the spanwise axis and the elevator control is usually quite powerful. Having the trim jump out of the full forward detent to full aft or close to it while holding back pressure on the stick will probably do nicely to initiate a flick roll, particularly for the inexperienced. My personal opinion on winching is that it is a cheap and nasty way to get airborne with emphasis on the nasty. The only reason it is tolerated is because it is cheap. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals
I certainly hope no-one has let their speed drop that far and remained on the wire. They probably didn't remain on the wire. They probably stall/spinned off it :-( The BGA says this: A glider with a 1g stalling speed of 34kt is likely to stall during rotation at about 50kt if the rotation rate is 20º per second. The suggested 5 seconds for rotation to a 35º climb angle implies an average of around 7º per second and a maximum of perhaps 10º per second. At this rotation rate the stall speed will be about 44kt. I assume these numbers are done for a K13. If you do the same things for many more modern gliders with stall speeds of 38 - 42 knots where some have a max winch speed of 65 or so knots, they are very close to stalling on any fast rotated take-off. This is why the BGA state: There is no case of an airworthy glider being damaged by excessive airspeed on a winch launch which is why it is not listed as a hazard. The placarded maximum winch launch speed may safely be exceeded during the early part of the launch. However, that contradicts the placarded speed on the glider, so we are not allowed to talk about it in Australia. For once, I agree with Mike B. There's no belly hook on my glider. D On 28/05/2010, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 01:29 PM 28/05/2010, you wrote: Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering the nose. If only ever this lesson was learned, then accidents/incidents would drop dramatically. At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked at the simulations http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htmhttp://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would definitely feature in our accident stats. Dave Stalling has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with angle of attack which is controlled by the pilot by where he puts the stick in the fore and aft sense. When that sinks in to everyone including instructors we might get somewhere. Next time you are at a safe altitude while local soaring get yourself a little extra speed, nose up and when stabilised at 45 degrees nose up hold the stick in that position and see what happens. Report back on your findings. You won't stall. The glider may go over the top of the parabola at lower than the 1g stalling speed but won't stall unless you pull the stick back. It takes very little time to go from a non stalling AoA to a stalled AoA as the glider doesn't have a high moment of inertia about the spanwise axis and the elevator control is usually quite powerful. Having the trim jump out of the full forward detent to full aft or close to it while holding back pressure on the stick will probably do nicely to initiate a flick roll, particularly for the inexperienced. My personal opinion on winching is that it is a cheap and nasty way to get airborne with emphasis on the nasty. The only reason it is tolerated is because it is cheap. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
