subject:"\[AusNOG\] Telstra Wi\-Fi calling on our network."

Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-15 Thread Narelle Clark

On Wed, 16 Oct. 2019, 2:17 pm Paul Brooks, 
wrote:

> On 15/10/2019 5:09 pm, Paul Wilkins wrote:
>
> Well that is interesting Narelle, however, if it's anticompetitive to
> discriminately treat packet based VOIP traffic, then it is likewise
> anticompetetive to cross subsidise your circuit based business by shunting
> traffic over a competitors' packet based network. What's sauce for the
> goose etc.
>
> 

> b) Its not your competitors traffic. Its your customers' traffic,
> requested by your customers' devices attached to your customers' WiFi
> networks.
>
> c) there was a time when it would be a cold day in hell before a telephone
> network engineer would consider pushing a well-managed high-quality voice
> call over an unmanaged, flaky, unknown, uncontrolled medium such as a
> best-efforts Internet network, let alone a not-mine ISP network, let alone
> a (shudder) end-user WiFi segment. That this is even a thing should be
> regarded as a testament to the high-enough quality of Internet data
> networks no longer being considered a poor cousin to an on-net
> end-to-end-managed carrier backbone network. Its not anti-competitive, its
> pro-competitive admiration that your network is better than theirs in some
> places.  Blocking it would indeed be anticompetitive.
>

Exactly.

An probably also a good case of product misrepresentation.

Are you advertising an "Internet service"? Or something that would
reasonably be construed by the average customer as such?

Then blocking ports and services is plainly not part of an any to any
Internet service.

If you are selling some cut down nobbled access thingy then you need to
clearly represent that to your customers.

By all means package up an "information service" or a "dedicated video
streaming service". I wish you all success with that, but it ain't the
Internet so please don't pretend it is.

My apologies for flogging this topic folks as it is near and dear to my
heart and an important foundational principle of the  Internet.

It also really *annoys* [1] me when my customers can't use SIP reliably on
their home broadband or other "Internet access" services. Telework is a
reality and people must be able to use their business telephony.

The ACCC is aware this goes on and I believe they are ready to enforce too.

Narelle
[1] Insert expletives

>
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-15 Thread Chris Knight

Hi Paul,

That page is only accurate when the device firmware is up-to-date and
Telstra have deployed the correct preference to the device.
I've got to the point of disabling this feature due to too many calls
being routed over WiFi in the presence of maximum or near-maximum
signal strength + active 4G data connections and abrupt call
disconnection due to loss of WiFi.
Nice idea, shame about the implementation though.

On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 at 13:13, Paul Wilkins  wrote:
>
> So I checked the Telstra terms, which states that Wi-Fi Calling uses WiFi as 
> a network of last resort:
>
> https://www.telstra.com.au/support/category/mobiles-tablets/telstra-wi-fi-calling/what-is-telstra-wi-fi-calling
>
> Wi-Fi Calling enables you to make voice calls using a Fixed Broadband Wi-Fi 
> connection from your compatible Telstra mobile when you can’t connect to the 
> mobile network.
>
> If the OP can establish their case, "to revert to using Wifi calling even in 
> the presence of decent signal strength" then either Telstra needs to fix the 
> misrepresentation in their T (for which the OP should follow up with Fair 
> Trading), or, this is deliberate policy to prefer WiFi over cellular, and the 
> OP should follow up with the ACCC.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Paul Wilkins
>
> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 19:54, Jamie Lovick  wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> WiFi calling is a user configurable option. It's available on Optus, 
>> Vodafone, and Tesltra. The OP's customer is paying the OP for Internet. 
>> They've entered into a contract for provision of service. They should be 
>> able to use that service within the terms and conditions.
>>
>> I don't see why the OP would bother blocking something that a customer using 
>> their network is paying for.
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 5:09 pm, Paul Wilkins  
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well that is interesting Narelle, however, if it's anticompetitive to 
>>> discriminately treat packet based VOIP traffic, then it is likewise 
>>> anticompetetive to cross subsidise your circuit based business by shunting 
>>> traffic over a competitors' packet based network. What's sauce for the 
>>> goose etc.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul Wilkins
>>>
>>> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 14:45, Narelle Clark  wrote:

 On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:14,  wrote:
 >
 > Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
 > to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?

 The last time I had a conversation with the Chair of the ACCC about
 deliberately degraded (poor or no performance of) VoIP on other
 networks, he wasn't impressed...

 The phrase anti-competitive behaviour was used... an eyebrow was raised...

 People do notice when SIP, RTP etc stop working on networks, so it
 really isn't a good idea.

 That applies to the big players as much as it does to the smaller
 ones, btw. If you want to release a new product or service, surely you
 *want* to reach their customers too? And you want your customers
 happy?

 --


 Narelle Clark
 ___
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>> -> US <-> +1-8018-4-52643 (JAMIE)
>> -> FR <-> +33-9-7073-0340
>> Doof.org-> Em <-> jalov...@doof.org
>>
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-15 Thread Paul Brooks

On 15/10/2019 5:09 pm, Paul Wilkins wrote:
> Well that is interesting Narelle, however, if it's anticompetitive to 
> discriminately
> treat packet based VOIP traffic, then it is likewise anticompetetive to cross
> subsidise your circuit based business by shunting traffic over a competitors' 
> packet
> based network. What's sauce for the goose etc.

a) Hot-Potato routing, a staple for Internet traffic-flows since forever, is 
all about
shunting traffic onto other people's networks as early as possible - this is 
basically
that - if there are two paths to get a packet to the handset - choose the best 
quality
path. Hot-Potato routing is hardly anti-competitive.

b) Its not your competitors traffic. Its your customers' traffic, requested by 
your
customers' devices attached to your customers' WiFi networks.

c) there was a time when it would be a cold day in hell before a telephone 
network
engineer would consider pushing a well-managed high-quality voice call over an
unmanaged, flaky, unknown, uncontrolled medium such as a best-efforts Internet
network, let alone a not-mine ISP network, let alone a (shudder) end-user WiFi
segment. That this is even a thing should be regarded as a testament to the
high-enough quality of Internet data networks no longer being considered a poor 
cousin
to an on-net end-to-end-managed carrier backbone network. Its not 
anti-competitive,
its pro-competitive admiration that your network is better than theirs in some
places.  Blocking it would indeed be anti-competitive.

Paul.

>    
> Kind regards
>    
> Paul Wilkins
>
> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 14:45, Narelle Clark  > wrote:
>
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:14,  > wrote:
> >
> > Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
> > to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>
> The last time I had a conversation with the Chair of the ACCC about
> deliberately degraded (poor or no performance of) VoIP on other
> networks, he wasn't impressed...
>
> The phrase anti-competitive behaviour was used... an eyebrow was raised...
>
> People do notice when SIP, RTP etc stop working on networks, so it
> really isn't a good idea.
>
> That applies to the big players as much as it does to the smaller
> ones, btw. If you want to release a new product or service, surely you
> *want* to reach their customers too? And you want your customers
> happy?
>
> -- 
>
>
> Narelle Clark
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>
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-15 Thread Matthew Young

My wife is on Telstra with the latest model iPhone and it most definitely
is not last resort.

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 12:14 PM Paul Wilkins 
wrote:

> So I checked the Telstra terms, which states that Wi-Fi Calling *uses
> WiFi as a network of last resort*:
>
>
> https://www.telstra.com.au/support/category/mobiles-tablets/telstra-wi-fi-calling/what-is-telstra-wi-fi-calling
>
> Wi-Fi Calling enables you to make voice calls using a Fixed Broadband
> Wi-Fi connection from your compatible Telstra mobile *when you can’t
> connect to the mobile network*.
>
> If the OP can establish their case, "*to revert to using Wifi calling
> even in the presence of decent signal strength*" then either Telstra
> needs to fix the misrepresentation in their T (for which the OP should
> follow up with Fair Trading), or, this is deliberate policy to prefer WiFi
> over cellular, and the OP should follow up with the ACCC.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Paul Wilkins
>
> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 19:54, Jamie Lovick  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> WiFi calling is a user configurable option. It's available on Optus,
>> Vodafone, and Tesltra. The OP's customer is paying the OP for Internet.
>> They've entered into a contract for provision of service. They should be
>> able to use that service within the terms and conditions.
>>
>> I don't see why the OP would bother blocking something that a customer
>> using their network is paying for.
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 5:09 pm, Paul Wilkins 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Well that is interesting Narelle, however, if it's anticompetitive to
>>> discriminately treat packet based VOIP traffic, then it is likewise
>>> anticompetetive to cross subsidise your circuit based business by shunting
>>> traffic over a competitors' packet based network. What's sauce for the
>>> goose etc.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul Wilkins
>>>
>>> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 14:45, Narelle Clark  wrote:
>>>
 On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:14,  wrote:
 >
 > Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
 > to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?

 The last time I had a conversation with the Chair of the ACCC about
 deliberately degraded (poor or no performance of) VoIP on other
 networks, he wasn't impressed...

 The phrase anti-competitive behaviour was used... an eyebrow was
 raised...

 People do notice when SIP, RTP etc stop working on networks, so it
 really isn't a good idea.

 That applies to the big players as much as it does to the smaller
 ones, btw. If you want to release a new product or service, surely you
 *want* to reach their customers too? And you want your customers
 happy?

 --


 Narelle Clark
 ___
 AusNOG mailing list
 AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net
 http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog

>>> ___
>>> AusNOG mailing list
>>> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net
>>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>>
>> --
>> Jamie Lovick <-> IT Consultant <-> AU <-> +61-4-1479-1681
>> -> US <-> +1-8018-4-52643 (JAMIE)
>> -> FR <-> +33-9-7073-0340
>> Doof.org-> Em <-> jalov...@doof.org
>>
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-- 
---

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0452 209 220
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-15 Thread Noel Butler

Interesting, my take on how wifi calling works is like most things RF,
strongest signal wins, certainly not a last resort, but, thats just my
understanding of it 

On 16/10/2019 12:12, Paul Wilkins wrote:

> So I checked the Telstra terms, which states that Wi-Fi Calling USES WIFI AS 
> A NETWORK OF LAST RESORT:
> 
> https://www.telstra.com.au/support/category/mobiles-tablets/telstra-wi-fi-calling/what-is-telstra-wi-fi-calling
> 
> Wi-Fi Calling enables you to make voice calls using a Fixed Broadband Wi-Fi 
> connection from your compatible Telstra mobile WHEN YOU CAN'T CONNECT TO THE 
> MOBILE NETWORK.

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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-15 Thread Narelle Clark

Err - since when have we not wanted to divert traffic across lower cost
networks?

Geeze I remember being sternly told by a certain Geoff H in the early 90s
that we couldn't make our international links too cheap as "PEOPLE WILL PUT
VOICE ON IT!!"

Exactly. What's good for the goose...


N

On Tue, 15 Oct. 2019, 5:09 pm Paul Wilkins, 
wrote:

> Well that is interesting Narelle, however, if it's anticompetitive to
> discriminately treat packet based VOIP traffic, then it is likewise
> anticompetetive to cross subsidise your circuit based business by shunting
> traffic over a competitors' packet based network. What's sauce for the
> goose etc.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Paul Wilkins
>
> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 14:45, Narelle Clark  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:14,  wrote:
>> >
>> > Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
>> > to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>>
>> The last time I had a conversation with the Chair of the ACCC about
>> deliberately degraded (poor or no performance of) VoIP on other
>> networks, he wasn't impressed...
>>
>> The phrase anti-competitive behaviour was used... an eyebrow was raised...
>>
>> People do notice when SIP, RTP etc stop working on networks, so it
>> really isn't a good idea.
>>
>> That applies to the big players as much as it does to the smaller
>> ones, btw. If you want to release a new product or service, surely you
>> *want* to reach their customers too? And you want your customers
>> happy?
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Narelle Clark
>> ___
>> AusNOG mailing list
>> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net
>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-15 Thread Paul Wilkins

So I checked the Telstra terms, which states that Wi-Fi Calling *uses WiFi
as a network of last resort*:

https://www.telstra.com.au/support/category/mobiles-tablets/telstra-wi-fi-calling/what-is-telstra-wi-fi-calling

Wi-Fi Calling enables you to make voice calls using a Fixed Broadband Wi-Fi
connection from your compatible Telstra mobile *when you can’t connect to
the mobile network*.

If the OP can establish their case, "*to revert to using Wifi calling even
in the presence of decent signal strength*" then either Telstra needs to
fix the misrepresentation in their T (for which the OP should follow up
with Fair Trading), or, this is deliberate policy to prefer WiFi over
cellular, and the OP should follow up with the ACCC.

Kind regards

Paul Wilkins

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 19:54, Jamie Lovick  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> WiFi calling is a user configurable option. It's available on Optus,
> Vodafone, and Tesltra. The OP's customer is paying the OP for Internet.
> They've entered into a contract for provision of service. They should be
> able to use that service within the terms and conditions.
>
> I don't see why the OP would bother blocking something that a customer
> using their network is paying for.
>
> Jamie
>
> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 5:09 pm, Paul Wilkins 
> wrote:
>
>> Well that is interesting Narelle, however, if it's anticompetitive to
>> discriminately treat packet based VOIP traffic, then it is likewise
>> anticompetetive to cross subsidise your circuit based business by shunting
>> traffic over a competitors' packet based network. What's sauce for the
>> goose etc.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>>
>> Paul Wilkins
>>
>> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 14:45, Narelle Clark  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:14,  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
>>> > to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>>>
>>> The last time I had a conversation with the Chair of the ACCC about
>>> deliberately degraded (poor or no performance of) VoIP on other
>>> networks, he wasn't impressed...
>>>
>>> The phrase anti-competitive behaviour was used... an eyebrow was
>>> raised...
>>>
>>> People do notice when SIP, RTP etc stop working on networks, so it
>>> really isn't a good idea.
>>>
>>> That applies to the big players as much as it does to the smaller
>>> ones, btw. If you want to release a new product or service, surely you
>>> *want* to reach their customers too? And you want your customers
>>> happy?
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Narelle Clark
>>> ___
>>> AusNOG mailing list
>>> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net
>>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>>
>> ___
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> --
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> -> US <-> +1-8018-4-52643 (JAMIE)
> -> FR <-> +33-9-7073-0340
> Doof.org-> Em <-> jalov...@doof.org
>
>
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-15 Thread Jamie Lovick

Hi,

WiFi calling is a user configurable option. It's available on Optus,
Vodafone, and Tesltra. The OP's customer is paying the OP for Internet.
They've entered into a contract for provision of service. They should be
able to use that service within the terms and conditions.

I don't see why the OP would bother blocking something that a customer
using their network is paying for.

Jamie

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 5:09 pm, Paul Wilkins 
wrote:

> Well that is interesting Narelle, however, if it's anticompetitive to
> discriminately treat packet based VOIP traffic, then it is likewise
> anticompetetive to cross subsidise your circuit based business by shunting
> traffic over a competitors' packet based network. What's sauce for the
> goose etc.
>
> Kind regards
>
>
> Paul Wilkins
>
> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 14:45, Narelle Clark  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:14,  wrote:
>> >
>> > Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
>> > to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>>
>> The last time I had a conversation with the Chair of the ACCC about
>> deliberately degraded (poor or no performance of) VoIP on other
>> networks, he wasn't impressed...
>>
>> The phrase anti-competitive behaviour was used... an eyebrow was raised...
>>
>> People do notice when SIP, RTP etc stop working on networks, so it
>> really isn't a good idea.
>>
>> That applies to the big players as much as it does to the smaller
>> ones, btw. If you want to release a new product or service, surely you
>> *want* to reach their customers too? And you want your customers
>> happy?
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Narelle Clark
>> ___
>> AusNOG mailing list
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>>
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-15 Thread Paul Wilkins

Well that is interesting Narelle, however, if it's anticompetitive to
discriminately treat packet based VOIP traffic, then it is likewise
anticompetetive to cross subsidise your circuit based business by shunting
traffic over a competitors' packet based network. What's sauce for the
goose etc.

Kind regards

Paul Wilkins

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 14:45, Narelle Clark  wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:14,  wrote:
> >
> > Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
> > to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>
> The last time I had a conversation with the Chair of the ACCC about
> deliberately degraded (poor or no performance of) VoIP on other
> networks, he wasn't impressed...
>
> The phrase anti-competitive behaviour was used... an eyebrow was raised...
>
> People do notice when SIP, RTP etc stop working on networks, so it
> really isn't a good idea.
>
> That applies to the big players as much as it does to the smaller
> ones, btw. If you want to release a new product or service, surely you
> *want* to reach their customers too? And you want your customers
> happy?
>
> --
>
>
> Narelle Clark
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-14 Thread Mark Smith

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019, 14:45 Narelle Clark,  wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:14,  wrote:
> >
> > Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
> > to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>
> The last time I had a conversation with the Chair of the ACCC about
> deliberately degraded (poor or no performance of) VoIP on other
> networks, he wasn't impressed...
>
> The phrase anti-competitive behaviour was used... an eyebrow was raised...
>
> People do notice when SIP, RTP etc stop working on networks, so it
> really isn't a good idea.
>
> That applies to the big players as much as it does to the smaller
> ones, btw. If you want to release a new product or service, surely you
> *want* to reach their customers too? And you want your customers
> happy?
>

I wonder if Gordon Ramsay would be interested in hosting "ISP Nightmares".




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>
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-14 Thread Narelle Clark

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:14,  wrote:
>
> Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
> to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?

The last time I had a conversation with the Chair of the ACCC about
deliberately degraded (poor or no performance of) VoIP on other
networks, he wasn't impressed...

The phrase anti-competitive behaviour was used... an eyebrow was raised...

People do notice when SIP, RTP etc stop working on networks, so it
really isn't a good idea.

That applies to the big players as much as it does to the smaller
ones, btw. If you want to release a new product or service, surely you
*want* to reach their customers too? And you want your customers
happy?

-- 

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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-13 Thread Jim Woodward


There is a little bit o irony that the OP is Australia Online, and that
Telstra Bigpond was originally launched under the name of Australia
OnLine - did make me smile a little :)  

Kind Regards, 

Jim. 


On 13-10-2019 20:10, Jared Hirst wrote:

Or just block all traffic from the OP's network ;) 

Jared Hirst 


On October 13, 2019, 8:00 PM GMT+11 nathan.brookfi...@simtronic.com.au wrote:

I was thinking, just blackhole all traffic for prefixes originated from AS1221, 
that would solve the issue!

Kindest Regards, 

Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB) 


On 13 Oct 2019, at 19:52, Bradley Amm  wrote:

Based on the tone of the thread he may as well block Netflix as they are using the network to get videos, smtp to non Aussie online customers and sip to non Aussie online servers. While at it block calls from those sip servers to non customers. 


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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-13 Thread Jared Hirst

Or just block all traffic from the OP's network ;)

Jared Hirst

[https://app.frontapp.com/api/1/noauth/companies/servers_australia_pty_ltd/seen/msg_5zbvc1x/0/b6c9cfae.gif]
On October 13, 2019, 8:00 PM GMT+11 
nathan.brookfi...@simtronic.com.au<mailto:nathan.brookfi...@simtronic.com.au> 
wrote:

I was thinking, just blackhole all traffic for prefixes originated from AS1221, 
that would solve the issue!

Kindest Regards,

Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB)

On 13 Oct 2019, at 19:52, Bradley Amm 
mailto:b...@bradleyamm.com>> wrote:

Based on the tone of the thread he may as well block Netflix as they are using 
the network to get videos, smtp to non Aussie online customers and sip to non 
Aussie online servers. While at it block calls from those sip servers to non 
customers.

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AusNOG 
mailto:ausnog-boun...@lists.ausnog.net>> on 
behalf of Mark Delany mailto:g...@juliet.emu.st>>
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2019 3:15 pm
To: ausnog@lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

On 13Oct19, Jonathan Brewer allegedly wrote:

> Calls will still work, but it might make Telstra uncomfortable
> enough that they want to negotiate.

There are four assumptions here that I'm not sure are valid.

The first is that the affected customers will blame Telstra. How do
you know this will occur? The affected customers may well determine
that they only get crappy performance with Ozonline and they get great
performance on their mate's wifi which is connected to a competitor
ISP. If I were confronted with such evidence I might first suspect
Ozonline of running a second-rate network.

The second assumption is that Telstra will notice. How do you know
this will occur? Do you think they have AI-driven support systems
which can correlate a few random complaints about wifi calling with a
particular ISP? If multiple ISPs adopt the same degradation approach
even real AI would find correlation difficult yet alone the fake AI we
have today.

The third assumption is that based on the strange traffic flow Telstra
will deduce that it is a subtle signal from an ISP wishing to initiate
a back-door peering agreement rather than just a poorly run ISP
network. What makes you think Telstra will make such a deduction?

The final assumption is that on making all these correlations and
deductions, Telstra will care enough about a few of their customers
suffering such that they will drop their decades-long staunch
opposition to peering with anyone inside Australia. Good luck with
that one my little flower.

Mark.
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-13 Thread Nathan Brookfield

I was thinking, just blackhole all traffic for prefixes originated from AS1221, 
that would solve the issue!

Kindest Regards,
Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB)

On 13 Oct 2019, at 19:52, Bradley Amm  wrote:

Based on the tone of the thread he may as well block Netflix as they are using 
the network to get videos, smtp to non Aussie online customers and sip to non 
Aussie online servers. While at it block calls from those sip servers to non 
customers.

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AusNOG  on behalf of Mark Delany 

Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2019 3:15 pm
To: ausnog@lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

On 13Oct19, Jonathan Brewer allegedly wrote:

> Calls will still work, but it might make Telstra uncomfortable
> enough that they want to negotiate.

There are four assumptions here that I'm not sure are valid.

The first is that the affected customers will blame Telstra. How do
you know this will occur? The affected customers may well determine
that they only get crappy performance with Ozonline and they get great
performance on their mate's wifi which is connected to a competitor
ISP. If I were confronted with such evidence I might first suspect
Ozonline of running a second-rate network.

The second assumption is that Telstra will notice. How do you know
this will occur? Do you think they have AI-driven support systems
which can correlate a few random complaints about wifi calling with a
particular ISP? If multiple ISPs adopt the same degradation approach
even real AI would find correlation difficult yet alone the fake AI we
have today.

The third assumption is that based on the strange traffic flow Telstra
will deduce that it is a subtle signal from an ISP wishing to initiate
a back-door peering agreement rather than just a poorly run ISP
network. What makes you think Telstra will make such a deduction?

The final assumption is that on making all these correlations and
deductions, Telstra will care enough about a few of their customers
suffering such that they will drop their decades-long staunch
opposition to peering with anyone inside Australia. Good luck with
that one my little flower.

Mark.
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-13 Thread Bradley Amm

Based on the tone of the thread he may as well block Netflix as they are using 
the network to get videos, smtp to non Aussie online customers and sip to non 
Aussie online servers. While at it block calls from those sip servers to non 
customers.

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AusNOG  on behalf of Mark Delany 

Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2019 3:15 pm
To: ausnog@lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

On 13Oct19, Jonathan Brewer allegedly wrote:

> Calls will still work, but it might make Telstra uncomfortable
> enough that they want to negotiate.

There are four assumptions here that I'm not sure are valid.

The first is that the affected customers will blame Telstra. How do
you know this will occur? The affected customers may well determine
that they only get crappy performance with Ozonline and they get great
performance on their mate's wifi which is connected to a competitor
ISP. If I were confronted with such evidence I might first suspect
Ozonline of running a second-rate network.

The second assumption is that Telstra will notice. How do you know
this will occur? Do you think they have AI-driven support systems
which can correlate a few random complaints about wifi calling with a
particular ISP? If multiple ISPs adopt the same degradation approach
even real AI would find correlation difficult yet alone the fake AI we
have today.

The third assumption is that based on the strange traffic flow Telstra
will deduce that it is a subtle signal from an ISP wishing to initiate
a back-door peering agreement rather than just a poorly run ISP
network. What makes you think Telstra will make such a deduction?

The final assumption is that on making all these correlations and
deductions, Telstra will care enough about a few of their customers
suffering such that they will drop their decades-long staunch
opposition to peering with anyone inside Australia. Good luck with
that one my little flower.

Mark.
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-13 Thread Mark Delany

On 13Oct19, Jonathan Brewer allegedly wrote:

> Calls will still work, but it might make Telstra uncomfortable
> enough that they want to negotiate.

There are four assumptions here that I'm not sure are valid.

The first is that the affected customers will blame Telstra. How do
you know this will occur? The affected customers may well determine
that they only get crappy performance with Ozonline and they get great
performance on their mate's wifi which is connected to a competitor
ISP. If I were confronted with such evidence I might first suspect
Ozonline of running a second-rate network.

The second assumption is that Telstra will notice. How do you know
this will occur?  Do you think they have AI-driven support systems
which can correlate a few random complaints about wifi calling with a
particular ISP? If multiple ISPs adopt the same degradation approach
even real AI would find correlation difficult yet alone the fake AI we
have today.

The third assumption is that based on the strange traffic flow Telstra
will deduce that it is a subtle signal from an ISP wishing to initiate
a back-door peering agreement rather than just a poorly run ISP
network. What makes you think Telstra will make such a deduction?

The final assumption is that on making all these correlations and
deductions, Telstra will care enough about a few of their customers
suffering such that they will drop their decades-long staunch
opposition to peering with anyone inside Australia. Good luck with
that one my little flower.

Mark.
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-13 Thread Jonathan Brewer

t distinction between voice and internet
>>> traffic may become less distinct. Which turns on questions of net
>>> neutrality, which is still very much an emerging debate, and realistically
>>> will be resolved in the US, and Australia will have little option but to
>>> follow suit. It's the consequence of being a branch economy, that policy
>>> and technical outcomes are put beyond the reach of national sovereignty.
>>> >
>>> > Kind regards
>>> >
>>> > Paul Wilkins
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 16:42, Bradley Amm  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Well if you have your IPWAN in NZ and the internet endpoint in
>>> Australia you can ;)
>>> >>
>>> >> Get Outlook for iOS
>>> >>
>>> >> 
>>> >> From: AusNOG  on behalf of Matthew
>>> Moyle-Croft 
>>> >> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:29 pm
>>> >> To: John Edwards; m...@ozonline.com.au
>>> >> Cc: AusNOG
>>> >> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.
>>> >>
>>> >> FYI:
>>> >>
>>> >> Telstra and Optus do NOT allow WIFI calling while overseas. Which
>>> sucks.  I have US sim that does and it works fine so it’s a business not
>>> technical decision.
>>> >>
>>> >> WIFI calling is such a tiny amount of data compared to almost all
>>> other uses it seems dumb to think about blocking it. Especially when people
>>> rely so much on mobile and a lot of in-building calling can suck pretty
>>> hard. (Heck, my multi-AP, Ubiquiti wifi at home gives me better in-home
>>> coverage than any of the telcos).
>>> >>
>>> >> MMC
>>> >>
>>> >> On 12 Oct 2019, at 1:54 pm, John Edwards  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Every bit of territory that your "sworn competitor" gives up by
>>> putting call data on your network instead of their private mobile network
>>> is territory that it may never get back.
>>> >>
>>> >> Imagine what WiFi calling is doing for International roaming revenue
>>> if every call now looks like a local origination.
>>> >>
>>> >> Rejoice in this scenario and encourage a world where a 20 billion
>>> dollar LTE network or 100 year monopoly are not prerequisites to making
>>> mobile calls - it's one of the few places where you might get a level
>>> playing field for telecommunications services.
>>> >>
>>> >> John
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 09:44,  wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hi All,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
>>> >>> Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
>>> >>> they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for
>>> transit,
>>> >>> and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry
>>> >>> some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not
>>> >>> for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering
>>> >>> content
>>> >>> to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are
>>> presumably
>>> >>> already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good
>>> for the
>>> >>> goose is not always good for the gander.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our
>>> >>> network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network.
>>> Presumably
>>> >>> this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital
>>> investment
>>> >>> requirement and supports their revenue stream by raising the
>>> >>> quality of their coverage. Hence Telstra's use of their competitor's
>>> networks
>>> >>> enhances their ability to dominate the industry, again without
>>> >>> any kind of settlement to their competitor ISPs.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thoughts?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
>>> >>> to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Michael
>>> >>> Australia On Line.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ___
>>> >>> AusNOG mailing list
>>> >>> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net
>>> >>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>> >>
>>> >> ___
>>> >> AusNOG mailing list
>>> >> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net
>>> >> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ___
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>>> >
>>> > ___
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-12 Thread Mark Smith

On Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 15:18 Jonathan Brewer,  wrote:

> Hi Mark,
>
> In every market I work in, Internet, fixed line telephony, and mobile
> telephony are regulated differently. Australia is no different. Peering may
> not be regulated in Australia, but call termination sure is. And that's
> what Telstra mobile is doing here - terminating calls on the OzOnline
> network.
>

This is really misunderstanding the Internet model. The network is
application agnostic and transparent.

These calls are not being terminated on the OzOnline network - they're
terminated at the application end-points - the customers' handsets and the
Telstra SIP servers (or SBCs).

These are just packets that customer are asking and paying OzOnline to try
to deliver to somewhere on the Internet. They could just as easily be
carrying HTTP, game etc. application traffic.



> Agreeing entirely with Paul, this is a super complex issue.
>
> With my grey hat on, I'd suggest OzOnline just drop all voice traffic
> bound for Telstra off at some European IX & let Telstra haul it back to
> their network. It's not a lot of bandwidth to ship elsewhere, the traffic
> will still get to Telstra, and when Telstra wants lower latency, they can
> negotiate a peering agreement.
>

If I have a paying customer who says "here's a packet, please try to
deliver it for me", then that's what I'm going to try to do, because that's
what they're paying me to do.

You know those annoying suppliers who engage in a contract and then after
the contract is agreed, start imposing conditions, or manipulating the
service to make it worse ? A bait-and-switch if you will?

Purposely giving your customers a bad experience is never a good idea.

Telstra won't peer, they'll just say "switch to our Wifi network, it's much
better the OzOnline's".

Own goal.



> Cheers,
>
> Jon
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 09:55, Mark Smith  wrote:
>
>> It's not truly complex.
>>
>> It's as simple as asking what the OP's customers are paying for.
>>
>> Are they paying for Internet access, or are they paying for Internet
>> access excluding the over-the-top services that Telstra are providing?
>>
>> If it is the latter, then it needs to be explicitly called out in the
>> ISP's T/SFOA. If it is not in the latter, the OP is in trouble with
>> the ACCC.
>>
>> https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 11:51, Paul Wilkins 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think this is a truly complex issue, which as it would require the
>> wisdom of Solomon  to resolve, probably puts it beyond most people's caring
>> or the actual extent of the problem. Because it's available to the telcos
>> to argue it's done to improve service quality, you'd really need to prove
>> that there existed systematic cost shifting.
>> >
>> > But it does raise salient questions of monopoly power. For one thing,
>> it's not the user that opts for these alternate routes, it's the telco, and
>> their ability to dictate firmware. This is probably not the kind of
>> behaviour government policy makers and the ACCC envisage in the role of the
>> national carrier.
>> >
>> > Not only do I think policy makers and the ACCC have bigger fish to fry,
>> but over time the current distinction between voice and internet traffic
>> may become less distinct. Which turns on questions of net neutrality, which
>> is still very much an emerging debate, and realistically will be resolved
>> in the US, and Australia will have little option but to follow suit. It's
>> the consequence of being a branch economy, that policy and technical
>> outcomes are put beyond the reach of national sovereignty.
>> >
>> > Kind regards
>> >
>> > Paul Wilkins
>> >
>> > On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 16:42, Bradley Amm  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Well if you have your IPWAN in NZ and the internet endpoint in
>> Australia you can ;)
>> >>
>> >> Get Outlook for iOS
>> >>
>> >> 
>> >> From: AusNOG  on behalf of Matthew
>> Moyle-Croft 
>> >> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:29 pm
>> >> To: John Edwards; m...@ozonline.com.au
>> >> Cc: AusNOG
>> >> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.
>> >>
>> >> FYI:
>> >>
>> >> Telstra and Optus do NOT allow WIFI calling while overseas. Which
>> sucks.  I have US sim that does and it works fine so it’s a business not
>> technical decision.
>> >>
>> >> WIFI calling is

Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-12 Thread Nathan Brookfield

Surely you’re taking the piss, inconveniencing paying customers just to cause 
Telstra a few extra cents to haul some voice back, the fact this is even a 
thought blows my mind

Would you then do the same for Optus who have had WiFi calling for 3+ years? If 
your customers don’t use SIP terminating on your network do you then route 
Commander, MyNetFone and every other third party VoIP providers traffic via 
your worst routes? Of course you wouldn’t or would you?

I don’t understand the logic, innovation isn’t a bad thing, yes I can see some 
benefits to Telstra’s costs on an RF capacity basis but it would be negligible.

Kindest Regards,
Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB)

On 13 Oct 2019, at 15:19, Jonathan Brewer  wrote:

Hi Mark,

In every market I work in, Internet, fixed line telephony, and mobile telephony 
are regulated differently. Australia is no different. Peering may not be 
regulated in Australia, but call termination sure is. And that's what Telstra 
mobile is doing here - terminating calls on the OzOnline network.

Agreeing entirely with Paul, this is a super complex issue.

With my grey hat on, I'd suggest OzOnline just drop all voice traffic bound for 
Telstra off at some European IX & let Telstra haul it back to their network. 
It's not a lot of bandwidth to ship elsewhere, the traffic will still get to 
Telstra, and when Telstra wants lower latency, they can negotiate a peering 
agreement.

Cheers,

Jon

On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 09:55, Mark Smith 
mailto:markzzzsm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
It's not truly complex.

It's as simple as asking what the OP's customers are paying for.

Are they paying for Internet access, or are they paying for Internet
access excluding the over-the-top services that Telstra are providing?

If it is the latter, then it needs to be explicitly called out in the
ISP's T/SFOA. If it is not in the latter, the OP is in trouble with
the ACCC.

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees

On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 11:51, Paul Wilkins 
mailto:paulwilkins...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I think this is a truly complex issue, which as it would require the wisdom 
> of Solomon  to resolve, probably puts it beyond most people's caring or the 
> actual extent of the problem. Because it's available to the telcos to argue 
> it's done to improve service quality, you'd really need to prove that there 
> existed systematic cost shifting.
>
> But it does raise salient questions of monopoly power. For one thing, it's 
> not the user that opts for these alternate routes, it's the telco, and their 
> ability to dictate firmware. This is probably not the kind of behaviour 
> government policy makers and the ACCC envisage in the role of the national 
> carrier.
>
> Not only do I think policy makers and the ACCC have bigger fish to fry, but 
> over time the current distinction between voice and internet traffic may 
> become less distinct. Which turns on questions of net neutrality, which is 
> still very much an emerging debate, and realistically will be resolved in the 
> US, and Australia will have little option but to follow suit. It's the 
> consequence of being a branch economy, that policy and technical outcomes are 
> put beyond the reach of national sovereignty.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Paul Wilkins
>
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 16:42, Bradley Amm 
> mailto:b...@bradleyamm.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Well if you have your IPWAN in NZ and the internet endpoint in Australia you 
>> can ;)
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS
>>
>> 
>> From: AusNOG 
>> mailto:ausnog-boun...@lists.ausnog.net>> on 
>> behalf of Matthew Moyle-Croft mailto:m...@mmc.com.au>>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:29 pm
>> To: John Edwards; m...@ozonline.com.au<mailto:m...@ozonline.com.au>
>> Cc: AusNOG
>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.
>>
>> FYI:
>>
>> Telstra and Optus do NOT allow WIFI calling while overseas. Which sucks.  I 
>> have US sim that does and it works fine so it’s a business not technical 
>> decision.
>>
>> WIFI calling is such a tiny amount of data compared to almost all other uses 
>> it seems dumb to think about blocking it. Especially when people rely so 
>> much on mobile and a lot of in-building calling can suck pretty hard. (Heck, 
>> my multi-AP, Ubiquiti wifi at home gives me better in-home coverage than any 
>> of the telcos).
>>
>> MMC
>>
>> On 12 Oct 2019, at 1:54 pm, John Edwards 
>> mailto:jaedwa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Every bit of territory that your "sworn competitor" gives up by putting call 
>> data on your network instead of their private mobile network is territory 
>> that it may n

Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-12 Thread Matthew Moyle-Croft

This isn’t call termination as it’s on the customer side of the call, not the 
telco side so telco regulation of calls really isn’t the issue here. And that 
kind of approach where you randomly block traffic because you want to have a 
war with an other telco isn’t customer friendly.  If my ISP did this I’d raise 
stink. HD voice is trivial amounts of data. Even if you did high bits rates 
it’s about 36 MEGABYTES per hour.

Grow up people.

MMC


> On 13 Oct 2019, at 2:47 pm, Jonathan Brewer  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> In every market I work in, Internet, fixed line telephony, and mobile 
> telephony are regulated differently. Australia is no different. Peering may 
> not be regulated in Australia, but call termination sure is. And that's what 
> Telstra mobile is doing here - terminating calls on the OzOnline network.
> 
> Agreeing entirely with Paul, this is a super complex issue.
> 
> With my grey hat on, I'd suggest OzOnline just drop all voice traffic bound 
> for Telstra off at some European IX & let Telstra haul it back to their 
> network. It's not a lot of bandwidth to ship elsewhere, the traffic will 
> still get to Telstra, and when Telstra wants lower latency, they can 
> negotiate a peering agreement.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 09:55, Mark Smith  <mailto:markzzzsm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> It's not truly complex.
> 
> It's as simple as asking what the OP's customers are paying for.
> 
> Are they paying for Internet access, or are they paying for Internet
> access excluding the over-the-top services that Telstra are providing?
> 
> If it is the latter, then it needs to be explicitly called out in the
> ISP's T/SFOA. If it is not in the latter, the OP is in trouble with
> the ACCC.
> 
> https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees 
> <https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees>
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 11:51, Paul Wilkins  <mailto:paulwilkins...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I think this is a truly complex issue, which as it would require the wisdom 
> > of Solomon  to resolve, probably puts it beyond most people's caring or the 
> > actual extent of the problem. Because it's available to the telcos to argue 
> > it's done to improve service quality, you'd really need to prove that there 
> > existed systematic cost shifting.
> >
> > But it does raise salient questions of monopoly power. For one thing, it's 
> > not the user that opts for these alternate routes, it's the telco, and 
> > their ability to dictate firmware. This is probably not the kind of 
> > behaviour government policy makers and the ACCC envisage in the role of the 
> > national carrier.
> >
> > Not only do I think policy makers and the ACCC have bigger fish to fry, but 
> > over time the current distinction between voice and internet traffic may 
> > become less distinct. Which turns on questions of net neutrality, which is 
> > still very much an emerging debate, and realistically will be resolved in 
> > the US, and Australia will have little option but to follow suit. It's the 
> > consequence of being a branch economy, that policy and technical outcomes 
> > are put beyond the reach of national sovereignty.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Paul Wilkins
> >
> > On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 16:42, Bradley Amm  > <mailto:b...@bradleyamm.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Well if you have your IPWAN in NZ and the internet endpoint in Australia 
> >> you can ;)
> >>
> >> Get Outlook for iOS
> >>
> >> 
> >> From: AusNOG  >> <mailto:ausnog-boun...@lists.ausnog.net>> on behalf of Matthew Moyle-Croft 
> >> mailto:m...@mmc.com.au>>
> >> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:29 pm
> >> To: John Edwards; m...@ozonline.com.au <mailto:m...@ozonline.com.au>
> >> Cc: AusNOG
> >> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.
> >>
> >> FYI:
> >>
> >> Telstra and Optus do NOT allow WIFI calling while overseas. Which sucks.  
> >> I have US sim that does and it works fine so it’s a business not technical 
> >> decision.
> >>
> >> WIFI calling is such a tiny amount of data compared to almost all other 
> >> uses it seems dumb to think about blocking it. Especially when people rely 
> >> so much on mobile and a lot of in-building calling can suck pretty hard. 
> >> (Heck, my multi-AP, Ubiquiti wifi at home gives me better in-home coverage 
> >> than any of the telcos).
> >>
> >> MMC
&g

Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-12 Thread Jonathan Brewer

Hi Mark,

In every market I work in, Internet, fixed line telephony, and mobile
telephony are regulated differently. Australia is no different. Peering may
not be regulated in Australia, but call termination sure is. And that's
what Telstra mobile is doing here - terminating calls on the OzOnline
network.

Agreeing entirely with Paul, this is a super complex issue.

With my grey hat on, I'd suggest OzOnline just drop all voice traffic bound
for Telstra off at some European IX & let Telstra haul it back to their
network. It's not a lot of bandwidth to ship elsewhere, the traffic will
still get to Telstra, and when Telstra wants lower latency, they can
negotiate a peering agreement.

Cheers,

Jon


On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 09:55, Mark Smith  wrote:

> It's not truly complex.
>
> It's as simple as asking what the OP's customers are paying for.
>
> Are they paying for Internet access, or are they paying for Internet
> access excluding the over-the-top services that Telstra are providing?
>
> If it is the latter, then it needs to be explicitly called out in the
> ISP's T/SFOA. If it is not in the latter, the OP is in trouble with
> the ACCC.
>
> https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees
>
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 11:51, Paul Wilkins 
> wrote:
> >
> > I think this is a truly complex issue, which as it would require the
> wisdom of Solomon  to resolve, probably puts it beyond most people's caring
> or the actual extent of the problem. Because it's available to the telcos
> to argue it's done to improve service quality, you'd really need to prove
> that there existed systematic cost shifting.
> >
> > But it does raise salient questions of monopoly power. For one thing,
> it's not the user that opts for these alternate routes, it's the telco, and
> their ability to dictate firmware. This is probably not the kind of
> behaviour government policy makers and the ACCC envisage in the role of the
> national carrier.
> >
> > Not only do I think policy makers and the ACCC have bigger fish to fry,
> but over time the current distinction between voice and internet traffic
> may become less distinct. Which turns on questions of net neutrality, which
> is still very much an emerging debate, and realistically will be resolved
> in the US, and Australia will have little option but to follow suit. It's
> the consequence of being a branch economy, that policy and technical
> outcomes are put beyond the reach of national sovereignty.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Paul Wilkins
> >
> > On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 16:42, Bradley Amm  wrote:
> >>
> >> Well if you have your IPWAN in NZ and the internet endpoint in
> Australia you can ;)
> >>
> >> Get Outlook for iOS
> >>
> >> ____________________
> >> From: AusNOG  on behalf of Matthew
> Moyle-Croft 
> >> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:29 pm
> >> To: John Edwards; m...@ozonline.com.au
> >> Cc: AusNOG
> >> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.
> >>
> >> FYI:
> >>
> >> Telstra and Optus do NOT allow WIFI calling while overseas. Which
> sucks.  I have US sim that does and it works fine so it’s a business not
> technical decision.
> >>
> >> WIFI calling is such a tiny amount of data compared to almost all other
> uses it seems dumb to think about blocking it. Especially when people rely
> so much on mobile and a lot of in-building calling can suck pretty hard.
> (Heck, my multi-AP, Ubiquiti wifi at home gives me better in-home coverage
> than any of the telcos).
> >>
> >> MMC
> >>
> >> On 12 Oct 2019, at 1:54 pm, John Edwards  wrote:
> >>
> >> Every bit of territory that your "sworn competitor" gives up by putting
> call data on your network instead of their private mobile network is
> territory that it may never get back.
> >>
> >> Imagine what WiFi calling is doing for International roaming revenue if
> every call now looks like a local origination.
> >>
> >> Rejoice in this scenario and encourage a world where a 20 billion
> dollar LTE network or 100 year monopoly are not prerequisites to making
> mobile calls - it's one of the few places where you might get a level
> playing field for telecommunications services.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 09:44,  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >>> So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
> >>> Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.
> >>>
> >>&g

Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-12 Thread Mark Smith

It's not truly complex.

It's as simple as asking what the OP's customers are paying for.

Are they paying for Internet access, or are they paying for Internet
access excluding the over-the-top services that Telstra are providing?

If it is the latter, then it needs to be explicitly called out in the
ISP's T/SFOA. If it is not in the latter, the OP is in trouble with
the ACCC.

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees



On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 11:51, Paul Wilkins  wrote:
>
> I think this is a truly complex issue, which as it would require the wisdom 
> of Solomon  to resolve, probably puts it beyond most people's caring or the 
> actual extent of the problem. Because it's available to the telcos to argue 
> it's done to improve service quality, you'd really need to prove that there 
> existed systematic cost shifting.
>
> But it does raise salient questions of monopoly power. For one thing, it's 
> not the user that opts for these alternate routes, it's the telco, and their 
> ability to dictate firmware. This is probably not the kind of behaviour 
> government policy makers and the ACCC envisage in the role of the national 
> carrier.
>
> Not only do I think policy makers and the ACCC have bigger fish to fry, but 
> over time the current distinction between voice and internet traffic may 
> become less distinct. Which turns on questions of net neutrality, which is 
> still very much an emerging debate, and realistically will be resolved in the 
> US, and Australia will have little option but to follow suit. It's the 
> consequence of being a branch economy, that policy and technical outcomes are 
> put beyond the reach of national sovereignty.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Paul Wilkins
>
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 16:42, Bradley Amm  wrote:
>>
>> Well if you have your IPWAN in NZ and the internet endpoint in Australia you 
>> can ;)
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS
>>
>> 
>> From: AusNOG  on behalf of Matthew 
>> Moyle-Croft 
>> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:29 pm
>> To: John Edwards; m...@ozonline.com.au
>> Cc: AusNOG
>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.
>>
>> FYI:
>>
>> Telstra and Optus do NOT allow WIFI calling while overseas. Which sucks.  I 
>> have US sim that does and it works fine so it’s a business not technical 
>> decision.
>>
>> WIFI calling is such a tiny amount of data compared to almost all other uses 
>> it seems dumb to think about blocking it. Especially when people rely so 
>> much on mobile and a lot of in-building calling can suck pretty hard. (Heck, 
>> my multi-AP, Ubiquiti wifi at home gives me better in-home coverage than any 
>> of the telcos).
>>
>> MMC
>>
>> On 12 Oct 2019, at 1:54 pm, John Edwards  wrote:
>>
>> Every bit of territory that your "sworn competitor" gives up by putting call 
>> data on your network instead of their private mobile network is territory 
>> that it may never get back.
>>
>> Imagine what WiFi calling is doing for International roaming revenue if 
>> every call now looks like a local origination.
>>
>> Rejoice in this scenario and encourage a world where a 20 billion dollar LTE 
>> network or 100 year monopoly are not prerequisites to making mobile calls - 
>> it's one of the few places where you might get a level playing field for 
>> telecommunications services.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 09:44,  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
>>> Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.
>>>
>>> If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
>>> they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for transit,
>>> and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry
>>> some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.
>>>
>>> Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not
>>> for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering
>>> content
>>> to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are presumably
>>> already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good for the
>>> goose is not always good for the gander.
>>>
>>> Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our
>>> network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network. Presumably
>>> this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital investment
>>> requirement an

Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-12 Thread Paul Wilkins

I think this is a truly complex issue, which as it would require the wisdom
of Solomon  to resolve, probably puts it beyond most people's caring or the
actual extent of the problem. Because it's available to the telcos to argue
it's done to improve service quality, you'd really need to prove that there
existed systematic cost shifting.

But it does raise salient questions of monopoly power. For one thing, it's
not the user that opts for these alternate routes, it's the telco, and
their ability to dictate firmware. This is probably not the kind of
behaviour government policy makers and the ACCC envisage in the role of the
national carrier.

Not only do I think policy makers and the ACCC have bigger fish to fry, but
over time the current distinction between voice and internet traffic may
become less distinct. Which turns on questions of net neutrality, which is
still very much an emerging debate, and realistically will be resolved in
the US, and Australia will have little option but to follow suit. It's the
consequence of being a branch economy, that policy and technical outcomes
are put beyond the reach of national sovereignty.

Kind regards

Paul Wilkins

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 16:42, Bradley Amm  wrote:

> Well if you have your IPWAN in NZ and the internet endpoint in Australia
> you can ;)
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>
> --
> *From:* AusNOG  on behalf of Matthew
> Moyle-Croft 
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:29 pm
> *To:* John Edwards; m...@ozonline.com.au
> *Cc:* AusNOG
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.
>
> FYI:
>
> Telstra and Optus do NOT allow WIFI calling while overseas. Which sucks.
> I have US sim that does and it works fine so it’s a business not technical
> decision.
>
> WIFI calling is such a tiny amount of data compared to almost all other
> uses it seems dumb to think about blocking it. Especially when people rely
> so much on mobile and a lot of in-building calling can suck pretty hard.
> (Heck, my multi-AP, Ubiquiti wifi at home gives me better in-home coverage
> than any of the telcos).
>
> MMC
>
> On 12 Oct 2019, at 1:54 pm, John Edwards  wrote:
>
> Every bit of territory that your "sworn competitor" gives up by putting
> call data on your network instead of their private mobile network is
> territory that it may never get back.
>
> Imagine what WiFi calling is doing for International roaming revenue if
> every call now looks like a local origination.
>
> Rejoice in this scenario and encourage a world where a 20 billion dollar
> LTE network or 100 year monopoly are not prerequisites to making
> mobile calls - it's one of the few places where you might get a level
> playing field for telecommunications services.
>
> John
>
>
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 09:44,  wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
>> Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.
>>
>> If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
>> they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for transit,
>> and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry
>> some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.
>>
>> Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not
>> for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering
>> content
>> to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are presumably
>> already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good for the
>> goose is not always good for the gander.
>>
>> Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our
>> network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network. Presumably
>> this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital investment
>> requirement and supports their revenue stream by raising the
>> quality of their coverage. Hence Telstra's use of their competitor's
>> networks
>> enhances their ability to dominate the industry, again without
>> any kind of settlement to their competitor ISPs.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
>> to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>>
>> Michael
>> Australia On Line.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> AusNOG mailing list
>> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net
>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>
> ___
> AusNOG mailing list
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> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>
>
> ___
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> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-11 Thread Bradley Amm

Well if you have your IPWAN in NZ and the internet endpoint in Australia you 
can ;)

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: AusNOG  on behalf of Matthew Moyle-Croft 

Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:29 pm
To: John Edwards; m...@ozonline.com.au
Cc: AusNOG
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

FYI:

Telstra and Optus do NOT allow WIFI calling while overseas. Which sucks.  I 
have US sim that does and it works fine so it’s a business not technical 
decision.

WIFI calling is such a tiny amount of data compared to almost all other uses it 
seems dumb to think about blocking it. Especially when people rely so much on 
mobile and a lot of in-building calling can suck pretty hard. (Heck, my 
multi-AP, Ubiquiti wifi at home gives me better in-home coverage than any of 
the telcos).

MMC

On 12 Oct 2019, at 1:54 pm, John Edwards 
mailto:jaedwa...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Every bit of territory that your "sworn competitor" gives up by putting call 
data on your network instead of their private mobile network is territory that 
it may never get back.

Imagine what WiFi calling is doing for International roaming revenue if every 
call now looks like a local origination.

Rejoice in this scenario and encourage a world where a 20 billion dollar LTE 
network or 100 year monopoly are not prerequisites to making mobile calls - 
it's one of the few places where you might get a level playing field for 
telecommunications services.

John

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 09:44, 
mailto:m...@ozonline.com.au>> wrote:
Hi All,

So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.

If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for transit,
and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry
some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.

Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not
for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering
content
to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are presumably
already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good for the
goose is not always good for the gander.

Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our
network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network. Presumably
this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital investment
requirement and supports their revenue stream by raising the
quality of their coverage. Hence Telstra's use of their competitor's networks
enhances their ability to dominate the industry, again without
any kind of settlement to their competitor ISPs.

Thoughts?

Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?

Michael
Australia On Line.

___
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-11 Thread Matthew Moyle-Croft

FYI:

Telstra and Optus do NOT allow WIFI calling while overseas. Which sucks.  I 
have US sim that does and it works fine so it’s a business not technical 
decision. 

WIFI calling is such a tiny amount of data compared to almost all other uses it 
seems dumb to think about blocking it. Especially when people rely so much on 
mobile and a lot of in-building calling can suck pretty hard. (Heck, my 
multi-AP, Ubiquiti wifi at home gives me better in-home coverage than any of 
the telcos).

MMC

> On 12 Oct 2019, at 1:54 pm, John Edwards  wrote:
> 
> Every bit of territory that your "sworn competitor" gives up by putting call 
> data on your network instead of their private mobile network is territory 
> that it may never get back.
> 
> Imagine what WiFi calling is doing for International roaming revenue if every 
> call now looks like a local origination.
> 
> Rejoice in this scenario and encourage a world where a 20 billion dollar LTE 
> network or 100 year monopoly are not prerequisites to making mobile calls - 
> it's one of the few places where you might get a level playing field for 
> telecommunications services.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 09:44,  > wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
> Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.
> 
> If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
> they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for transit,
> and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry  
> some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.
> 
> Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not  
> for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering  
> content
> to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are presumably
> already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good for the
> goose is not always good for the gander.
> 
> Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our  
> network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network. Presumably
> this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital investment
> requirement and supports their revenue stream by raising the
> quality of their coverage. Hence Telstra's use of their competitor's networks
> enhances their ability to dominate the industry, again without
> any kind of settlement to their competitor ISPs.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
> to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
> 
> Michael
> Australia On Line.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net 
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog 
> 
> ___
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-11 Thread Mark Smith

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 12:27, Nathan Brookfield
 wrote:
>
> If you run a corporate or last mile access network, isn’t your primary role 
> to deliver content to your end user whether that’s Email. HTTP, Voice or 
> video in some way, shape or form as reliably and quickly as possible without 
> fault?
>

The OP seems to believe that Telstra are freeloading on his network.
They're not, because his customers are paying him to provide
reachability to the Internet, which includes Telstra and what ever OTT
service Telstra may provide.




> The fact you’d even ask how to block it shocks me, the entire point o; WiFi 
> calling is to provide a better service to end users in poor cocerahe area’s 
> whether that’s via RF or cable, yes it shifts load off a radio transmitter or 
> microwave backhaul to IP over multiple networks but it’s still using 
> Infrastructure on Telstra’s network so if anything It’s transferring costs 
> for them from one place to another.  When I walk into Equinix for example and 
> join the WiFi and I can make and receive calls while working in a low 
> coverage area, I praise Telstra!
>
> There are people here who know much better than I do but I doubt CDN’s are 
> paying Australian Telco’s to be inside the network in 2019 unless it’s under 
> a legacy agreement, it’s likely the other way around or a mutual agreement, 
> carriers want the best access to content without having to transit it so I’m 
> going to say, you’re just plain wrong on all fronts here.
>
> Kindest Regards,
>
> Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB)
>
>
>
> Chief Executive Officer
>
> Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd
>
>
>
> Local: (02) 4749 4949 | Fax: (02) 4749 4950 | Direct: (02) 4749 4951
>
> Web: http://www.simtronic.com.au | E-mail: nathan.brookfi...@simtronic.com.au
>
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE
>
> The information contained in this email and any attached files is strictly 
> private and confidential. The intended recipient of this email may only use, 
> reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this email and 
> any attached files with Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd’s permission. If you 
> are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from using, 
> reproducing, adapting, disclosing or distributing the information contained 
> in this email and any attached files or taking any action in reliance on it. 
> If you have received this email in error, please email the sender by replying 
> to this message, promptly delete and destroy any copies of this email and any 
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> negligence or otherwise, which may result directly or indirectly from this 
> communication or any files attached.
>
>
> On 12 Oct 2019, at 10:41, James Hodgkinson  wrote:
>
> 
> Are you really considering blocking customers' access to services, via the 
> connectivity/bandwidth they pay you for, because of the company that provides 
> that service?
>
> After so much heated argument over net neutrality, I feel this shouldn't even 
> be a discussion.
>
> I'd wager it wasn't even Telstra making the cellular vs wifi choice, it was 
> the devices.
>
> James
>
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019, at 09:31, James Harmey wrote:
>
> I looked into this as to allowing traffic for WiFi calling on our corporate 
> WiFi.
>
> Allowing (or denying) traffic to these URLs should be enough to manage WiFi 
> calling.
>
> epdg.epc...pub.3gppnetwork.org
>
> so for Telstra that would be:
>
> epdg.epc.mnc001.mcc505.pub.3gppnetwork.org
>
> The MNC and MMC values are publicly available.
>
> It’s also just an IPSec tunnel so you could always block that if you were so 
> inclined.
>
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:15,  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
> Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.
>
> If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
> they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for transit,
> and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry
> some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.
>
> Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not
> for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering
> content
> to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are presumably
> already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good for the
> goose is not always good for the gander.
>
> Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our
> network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network. Presumably
> this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital

Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-11 Thread John Edwards

Every bit of territory that your "sworn competitor" gives up by putting
call data on your network instead of their private mobile network is
territory that it may never get back.

Imagine what WiFi calling is doing for International roaming revenue if
every call now looks like a local origination.

Rejoice in this scenario and encourage a world where a 20 billion dollar
LTE network or 100 year monopoly are not prerequisites to making
mobile calls - it's one of the few places where you might get a level
playing field for telecommunications services.

John


On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 09:44,  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
> Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.
>
> If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
> they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for transit,
> and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry
> some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.
>
> Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not
> for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering
> content
> to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are presumably
> already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good for the
> goose is not always good for the gander.
>
> Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our
> network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network. Presumably
> this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital investment
> requirement and supports their revenue stream by raising the
> quality of their coverage. Hence Telstra's use of their competitor's
> networks
> enhances their ability to dominate the industry, again without
> any kind of settlement to their competitor ISPs.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
> to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>
> Michael
> Australia On Line.
>
>
>
>
>
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> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-11 Thread mike


Quoting Nathan Brookfield :

The fact you’d even ask how to block it shocks me, the entire point  
o; WiFi calling is to provide a better service to end users in poor  
cocerahe area’s


The point I was raising was is this the entire point?

whether that’s via RF or cable, yes it shifts load off a radio  
transmitter or microwave backhaul to IP over multiple networks but  
it’s still using Infrastructure on Telstra’s network so if anything  
It’s transferring costs for them from one place to another.


And supplementing their mobile network with their competitors network,  
so no, not simply transfer of costs from point to point.


As a thought experiment, at its most extreme, if 100% of calls could  
be serviced by Wifi calling, you could be a mobile operator without  
your own
cell network. Now I'm not actually seriously suggesting this as a  
possibility but to highlight the cost advantages both cap ex and op ex  
of

off loading volume on to your competitor's networks.


When I walk into Equinix for example
and join the WiFi and I can make and receive calls while working in  
a low coverage area, I praise Telstra!


That Telstra has their own network, I wouldn't be denying service, and  
in this instance I might be impeding their attempt to shift

network costs onto their customers.

When I walk into Equinix for example and join the WiFi and  I can  
make and receive calls while working in a low coverage area, I   
praise Telstra!


As a I say, it appears that Wifi calling may be preferred even when  
decent signal is available.




There are people here who know much better than I do but I doubt   
CDN’s are paying Australian Telco’s to be inside the network in 2019  
 unless it’s under a legacy agreement, it’s likely the other way   
around or a mutual agreement, carriers want the best access to   
content without having to transit it so I’m going to say, you’re   
just plain wrong on all fronts here.


As recently as Aug 2016, Cloud Flare reported their cost to deliver  
content into

Telstra was 20 times that of Europe. Even though they represented
5% of Cloud Flare's traffic they represented 50% of their bandwidth costs.

Cloud Flare also reported that if their existing Aust delivery costs  
were regarded as 85 units,
if they removed Telstra from the calculation it fell to 17 because  
they peered with everyone else.

Meaning Telstra did not then peer with CDNs.

Given Telstra's market share hasn't changed much since then, they  
retain the whip hand so I doubt their

business model has changed.

https://www.computerworld.com.au/article/605402/cloudflare-bandwidth-cost-claims-overstated-telstra-says/

Kind regards

Michael.


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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-11 Thread Nathan Brookfield

If you run a corporate or last mile access network, isn’t your primary role to 
deliver content to your end user whether that’s Email. HTTP, Voice or video in 
some way, shape or form as reliably and quickly as possible without fault?

The fact you’d even ask how to block it shocks me, the entire point o; WiFi 
calling is to provide a better service to end users in poor cocerahe area’s 
whether that’s via RF or cable, yes it shifts load off a radio transmitter or 
microwave backhaul to IP over multiple networks but it’s still using 
Infrastructure on Telstra’s network so if anything It’s transferring costs for 
them from one place to another.  When I walk into Equinix for example and join 
the WiFi and I can make and receive calls while working in a low coverage area, 
I praise Telstra!

There are people here who know much better than I do but I doubt CDN’s are 
paying Australian Telco’s to be inside the network in 2019 unless it’s under a 
legacy agreement, it’s likely the other way around or a mutual agreement, 
carriers want the best access to content without having to transit it so I’m 
going to say, you’re just plain wrong on all fronts here.

Kindest Regards,
Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB)

Chief Executive Officer
Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd

Local: (02) 4749 4949 | Fax: (02) 4749 
4950 | Direct: (02) 4749 4951
Web: http://www.simtronic.com.au | E-mail: 
nathan.brookfi...@simtronic.com.au

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any files attached.

On 12 Oct 2019, at 10:41, James Hodgkinson  wrote:


Are you really considering blocking customers' access to services, via the 
connectivity/bandwidth they pay you for, because of the company that provides 
that service?

After so much heated argument over net neutrality, I feel this shouldn't even 
be a discussion.

I'd wager it wasn't even Telstra making the cellular vs wifi choice, it was the 
devices.

James

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019, at 09:31, James Harmey wrote:
I looked into this as to allowing traffic for WiFi calling on our corporate 
WiFi.

Allowing (or denying) traffic to these URLs should be enough to manage WiFi 
calling.

epdg.epc...pub.3gppnetwork.org

so for Telstra that would be:

epdg.epc.mnc001.mcc505.pub.3gppnetwork.org

The MNC and MMC values are publicly available.

It’s also just an IPSec tunnel so you could always block that if you were so 
inclined.

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:15, 
mailto:m...@ozonline.com.au>> wrote:
Hi All,

So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.

If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for transit,
and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry
some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.

Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not
for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering
content
to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are presumably
already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good for the
goose is not always good for the gander.

Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our
network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network. Presumably
this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital investment
requirement and supports their revenue stream by raising the
quality of their coverage. Hence Telstra's use of their competitor's networks
enhances their ability to dominate the industry, again without
any kind of settlement to their competitor ISPs.

Thoughts?

Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL

Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-11 Thread James Hodgkinson

Are you really considering blocking customers' access to services, via the 
connectivity/bandwidth they pay you for, because of the company that provides 
that service?

After so much heated argument over net neutrality, I feel this shouldn't even 
be a discussion.

I'd wager it wasn't even Telstra making the cellular vs wifi choice, it was the 
devices.

James

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019, at 09:31, James Harmey wrote:
> I looked into this as to allowing traffic for WiFi calling on our corporate 
> WiFi. 
> 
> Allowing (or denying) traffic to these URLs should be enough to manage WiFi 
> calling. 

> epdg.epc...pub.3gppnetwork.org

> so for Telstra that would be:


> epdg.epc.mnc001.mcc505.pub.3gppnetwork.org

> The MNC and MMC values are publicly available. 
> 
> It’s also just an IPSec tunnel so you could always block that if you were so 
> inclined. 
> 
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:15,  wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> 
>>  So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
>>  Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.
>> 
>>  If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
>>  they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for transit,
>>  and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry 
>>  some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.
>> 
>>  Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not 
>>  for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering 
>>  content
>>  to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are presumably
>>  already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good for the
>>  goose is not always good for the gander.
>> 
>>  Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our 
>>  network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network. Presumably
>>  this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital investment
>>  requirement and supports their revenue stream by raising the
>>  quality of their coverage. Hence Telstra's use of their competitor's 
>> networks
>>  enhances their ability to dominate the industry, again without
>>  any kind of settlement to their competitor ISPs.
>> 
>>  Thoughts?
>> 
>>  Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
>>  to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>> 
>>  Michael
>>  Australia On Line.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-11 Thread James Harmey

I looked into this as to allowing traffic for WiFi calling on our corporate
WiFi.

Allowing (or denying) traffic to these URLs should be enough to manage WiFi
calling.

epdg.epc...pub.3gppnetwork.org

so for Telstra that would be:

epdg.epc.mnc001.mcc505.pub.3gppnetwork.org
The MNC and MMC values are publicly available.

It’s also just an IPSec tunnel so you could always block that if you were
so inclined.

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 10:15,  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
> Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.
>
> If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
> they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for transit,
> and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry
> some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.
>
> Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not
> for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering
> content
> to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are presumably
> already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good for the
> goose is not always good for the gander.
>
> Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our
> network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network. Presumably
> this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital investment
> requirement and supports their revenue stream by raising the
> quality of their coverage. Hence Telstra's use of their competitor's
> networks
> enhances their ability to dominate the industry, again without
> any kind of settlement to their competitor ISPs.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
> to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>
> Michael
> Australia On Line.
>
>
>
>
>
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[AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

2019-10-11 Thread mike


Hi All,

So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.

If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for transit,
and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry  
some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.


Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not  
for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering  
content

to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are presumably
already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good for the
goose is not always good for the gander.

Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our  
network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network. Presumably

this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital investment
requirement and supports their revenue stream by raising the
quality of their coverage. Hence Telstra's use of their competitor's networks
enhances their ability to dominate the industry, again without
any kind of settlement to their competitor ISPs.

Thoughts?

Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?

Michael
Australia On Line.





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Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

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