Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Exorcisms? of children in Ginetes documents
In our church we also have the Do you renounce Satan and sprinkling of everyone with holy water on Easter Sunday. (I think the Easter Vigil, also.) Mary On Thursday, November 7, 2013, Margaret Vicente wrote: Terri, I'm not sure if this will be of help to clarify what has already been said by others but exorcism is a common pratice in baptism up to this day. If you have been present at a baptism you might recall the priest involves not only the parents and godparents in the ritual but also present. The exorcism is symbolic. Before the priests anoints the child with the oil he exorcises (cleanses) the child or the adult by laying his hand on them and asking the question do you renounce satan and everyone responds yes we do. BAPTISM is a faith sacrament in the C.C. and it marks a rebirth of the spirit out of water by renouncing evil and accepting that which is Good. Cheers, Margaret On 11/6/13, Terri terr...@rogers.com javascript:; wrote: Thanks for all your answers. It gave me more insight about why a child's document would say 'exorcism'. I had first even thought that it could have been a seisure or something they saw in a child and mistook it for being 'possessed by the devil' since they wouldn't have known much about medical conditions like that in that era. But your explanations made alot of sense. On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:10:21 AM UTC-5, Terri wrote: I found it creepy by interesting that in a few baptism records I needed for children in Ginetes, the word 'exorcismos' appeared. This does mean exorcisms by a priest were performed right? or does this word have ANOTHER meaning in Portuguese? I've attached two records below. Terri Santos Researching Agua d'Alto, Agua de Pau, Ginetes, Vila Franca do Campo Sao Pedro and Sao Miguel -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:;. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.comjavascript:; . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. -- Margaret M Vicente -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:;. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.comjavascript:; . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Exorcisms? of children in Ginetes documents
Hi John, Yes, it's not a sin. But clearly the Church does believe that the devil might have been involved in the first baptism, and they need to exorcise it better. I guess it makes that makes the first one a satanic rite instead of a sin. I understand the need for a second baptism, just to make sure. And I know that a rite of exorcism is part of baptism anyway. But clearly something is fishy about the need to state the exorcism explicitly. My theory about that is the one above - a need to affirm the power of the Church. Granted, it's my personal opinion, and I don't have time to research that deeper. I just find it funny from the records that they exorcise only on second baptisms. I'm assuming that the record reflects the rite and a stronger exorcise was performed on those babies. João C. Ventura On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 3:50:13 PM UTC+1, John Raposo wrote: The practice is the same today. It was never a sin (and still is not) for a layman to baptize a child in case the child was at risk of dying before baptism. Note many children batizado pela partrira, or a avó (the midwife or the grandmother). That is still the case today. However, the baptism is then recorded in the church where the child would have been baptized and and another baptism sub condicione is performed in case there was anything invalid about the first baptism (like not using the Trinitarian formula). In hospitals throughout the US, many Christian (not necessarily Catholic) laymen, e.g. obstetricians, nurses, etc, baptize babies who are born with a potentially life threatening conditions, with the permission of the parent, of course. Thank you for the clarification. John On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 7:45 AM, João Ventura jo...@venturas.orgjavascript: wrote: Hello, Terri (and John), My experience in seeing the baptism records is that the priest conducts an exorcism when the children had already been baptized by a non-priest. In some circumstances, people believed the baby would die without being baptized so they'd baptize them themselves. However, since these people were not priests, before the second baptism, the priest would perform a symbolic exorcism. In the records above, if you look carefully, you'll notice the reference to the prior 'lay' baptism, which motivated the need for the exorcism. In the early Christian church, any Christian could baptize another. But the power of the church would be threatened if normal people started doing these rites.. Indeed, between 1860 and 1910, Portugal kept passing laws to create a Civil Register, so that the birth, marriage and death certificates could be managed by the Government and not the Church. Always with little results, until the Monarchy was abolished and the civil society took that power from them. I guess the exorcism was done to show the people that they had sinned in baptizing the baby, and that a real priest was needed. João C. Ventura On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:36:43 PM UTC+1, John Raposo wrote: As I understand it, it was and still is part of the Baptismal ceremony. Baptism is the pouring of the water over the head baptizing in the name of the Father etc. But before you get to the point, there is the anointing with holy oils and the priest applying a grain or two of salt on his thumb to the mouth of the baby. And then there is the rejection of Satan, declared on the baby's behalf by the Godparents. Although I am not a priest, I think the salt applied to the lips initiates a symbollic expulsion of Satan from the newborn leaving him clean and open to receiving Christ. Maybe there is a priest or religious on the list that can provide clearer (and more accurate) information. John Miranda Raposo On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:12 AM, Terri ter...@rogers.com wrote: I found it creepy by interesting that in a few baptism records I needed for children in Ginetes, the word 'exorcismos' appeared. This does mean exorcisms by a priest were performed right? or does this word have ANOTHER meaning in Portuguese? I've attached two records below. Terri Santos Researching Agua d'Alto, Agua de Pau, Ginetes, Vila Franca do Campo Sao Pedro and Sao Miguel -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/ group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+un...@ googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azo...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/ group/azores. -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Exorcisms? of children in Ginetes documents
As I understand it, it was and still is part of the Baptismal ceremony. Baptism is the pouring of the water over the head baptizing in the name of the Father etc. But before you get to the point, there is the anointing with holy oils and the priest applying a grain or two of salt on his thumb to the mouth of the baby. And then there is the rejection of Satan, declared on the baby's behalf by the Godparents. Although I am not a priest, I think the salt applied to the lips initiates a symbollic expulsion of Satan from the newborn leaving him clean and open to receiving Christ. Maybe there is a priest or religious on the list that can provide clearer (and more accurate) information. John Miranda Raposo On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:12 AM, Terri terr...@rogers.com wrote: I found it creepy by interesting that in a few baptism records I needed for children in Ginetes, the word 'exorcismos' appeared. This does mean exorcisms by a priest were performed right? or does this word have ANOTHER meaning in Portuguese? I've attached two records below. Terri Santos Researching Agua d'Alto, Agua de Pau, Ginetes, Vila Franca do Campo Sao Pedro and Sao Miguel -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Exorcisms? of children in Ginetes documents
Children needed the exorcisms at church when they were baptized at home in peril. The article explains the dimension of the word exorcism: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm João Ventura Terceira From: Terri terr...@rogers.com To: azores@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 4:10 AM Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Exorcisms? of children in Ginetes documents I found it creepy by interesting that in a few baptism records I needed for children in Ginetes, the word 'exorcismos' appeared. This does mean exorcisms by a priest were performed right? or does this word have ANOTHER meaning in Portuguese? I've attached two records below. Terri Santos Researching Agua d'Alto, Agua de Pau, Ginetes, Vila Franca do Campo Sao Pedro and Sao Miguel-- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says Join this group and it will take you to Edit my membership. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Azores Genealogy group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
