[Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Hello List, Hello Kern, i am addressing a well know issue regarding bacula and it´s restore feature. I have seen a list where this issue is listet as the most wanted feature it think. My questions: - How long will it take until moved or deleted files will be reconized ? - Is there a workaround ? - Why are GUIs more important than fixing the greatest Bug ever? :) Thanks, Mario - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hello List, Hello Kern, > > i am addressing a well know issue regarding bacula and it´s restore > feature. > I have seen a list where this issue is listet as the most wanted feature > it think. > > My questions: > - How long will it take until moved or deleted files will be reconized ? Someone's got to do the work. Looks like someone has been doing preliminary work on it as of late, but I don't expect that it will be in Bacula 2.2 (I could be wrong), so it will be awhile. > - Is there a workaround ? Don't do anything but full backups, and you will not have this problem. To my knowledge, you have this problem with incrementals. It is somewhat lessened by making heavy use differentials, and eliminated by doing exclusively fulls. > - Why are GUIs more important than fixing the greatest Bug ever? :) Because it is not a bug, it is the way things work. Many commercial backup softwares have exactly the same problem. I think the GUI is also more requested than this bug -- one can perfectly well restore something they need even with this in place. If they cannot use command lines/figure out the software, this particular problem is not going to affect them -- they'll never get that far. - -- _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ |Y#| | | |\/| | \ |\ | | |Ryan Novosielski - Systems Programmer III |$&| |__| | | |__/ | \| _| |[EMAIL PROTECTED] - 973/972.0922 (2-0922) \__/ Univ. of Med. and Dent.|IST/AST - NJMS Medical Science Bldg - C630 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGf/Evmb+gadEcsb4RArTLAJ9Kxr2R7F9tmREHKn6SU0gVGheyRACcDAn7 WXknHSbxwbaweoOzaebUQyg= =2fnT -END PGP SIGNATURE- - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Hello List, Hello Kern, > > > > i am addressing a well know issue regarding bacula and it´s restore > > feature. > > I have seen a list where this issue is listet as the most wanted feature > > it think. > > > > My questions: > > - How long will it take until moved or deleted files will be reconized ? > > Someone's got to do the work. Looks like someone has been doing > preliminary work on it as of late, but I don't expect that it will be in > Bacula 2.2 (I could be wrong), so it will be awhile. Maybe this is a pain in the a** for a lot of people here. If noone is willing to tackle that problem, why don´t we all donate some money and pay someone to do it? > > > - Is there a workaround ? > > Don't do anything but full backups, and you will not have this problem. > To my knowledge, you have this problem with incrementals. It is somewhat > lessened by making heavy use differentials, and eliminated by doing > exclusively fulls. > > > - Why are GUIs more important than fixing the greatest Bug ever? :) > > Because it is not a bug, it is the way things work. Many commercial > backup softwares have exactly the same problem. I would never use or even pay such a backup software. I am planing it to use it in companies, not at home for my desktop. Imagine your Sitation: The whole server goes down. You have a 10 Days old full backup and 9 incrementals. Now you bring the system back up but with inconsitent files and contents?! Try to explain that to you boss or the company you work for?! Once the GUI is done for the "lazy" people, they will find out that bacula is missing a reliable and professional reason. Just my 2 cent. What scares me is that this issue must be more than one year old, and nobody ever really complained or did something about it. I do not have the time and knowledge to implement this, but i would be willing to donate in order to get someone to do it properly. Regards, Mario - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> Hello List, Hello Kern, >>> >>> i am addressing a well know issue regarding bacula and it´s restore >>> feature. >>> I have seen a list where this issue is listet as the most wanted > feature >>> it think. >>> >>> My questions: >>> - How long will it take until moved or deleted files will be > reconized ? >> Someone's got to do the work. Looks like someone has been doing >> preliminary work on it as of late, but I don't expect that it will be > in >> Bacula 2.2 (I could be wrong), so it will be awhile. > > Maybe this is a pain in the a** for a lot of people here. If noone is > willing to tackle that problem, why don´t we all donate some money and > pay someone to do it? It very well might be. For me, it is not such a problem. The biggest concern for me, I think, is that if I restore a system with user quotas, I might end up with some people over quota if they tend to add and delete files a lot. In cases where files merely change a lot, this is not really an issue. >>> - Is there a workaround ? >> Don't do anything but full backups, and you will not have this > problem. >> To my knowledge, you have this problem with incrementals. It is > somewhat >> lessened by making heavy use differentials, and eliminated by doing >> exclusively fulls. >> >>> - Why are GUIs more important than fixing the greatest Bug ever? :) >> Because it is not a bug, it is the way things work. Many commercial >> backup softwares have exactly the same problem. > > I would never use or even pay such a backup software. > > I am planing it to use it in companies, not at home for my desktop. > > Imagine your Sitation: The whole server goes down. You have a 10 Days > old full backup and 9 incrementals. > > Now you bring the system back up but with inconsitent files and > contents?! > > Try to explain that to you boss or the company you work for?! Since you seem to be so sure about the subject, I'd like to see you tell me which backup software does and does not have this problem. My suspicion is that many of the commercial packages have the same problem (at least that's what I remember finding out last time I looked into this). I can't tell right now from looking at the web, as this really isn't mentioned anyplace. How would you find out whether your choice of software package has this limitation or not? > Once the GUI is done for the "lazy" people, they will find out that > bacula is missing a reliable and professional reason. > > Just my 2 cent. > > What scares me is that this issue must be more than one year old, and > nobody ever really complained or did something about it. Like I said, I suspect people are aware of it and can live with it. The easy solution is to always conduct full backups, not incrementals. It's all a question of where you want to spend your money. As far as I'm concerned, making sure Bacula can restore all of my files is more important than make sure it knows what I've deleted. > I do not have the time and knowledge to implement this, but i would be > willing to donate in order to get someone to do it properly. > > Regards, Mario > > > > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > ___ > Bacula-users mailing list > Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users - -- _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ |Y#| | | |\/| | \ |\ | | |Ryan Novosielski - Systems Programmer III |$&| |__| | | |__/ | \| _| |[EMAIL PROTECTED] - 973/972.0922 (2-0922) \__/ Univ. of Med. and Dent.|IST/AST - NJMS Medical Science Bldg - C630 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGgB+xmb+gadEcsb4RAuSzAKCgYrrG9mYkgqdfzDuNJWYbji7lVQCcDDCR rJmlnXhV3+Cda7EFh/2vj54= =saaU -END PGP SIGNATURE- - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Hi, > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >>> Hello List, Hello Kern, > >>> > >>> i am addressing a well know issue regarding bacula and it´s restore > >>> feature. > >>> I have seen a list where this issue is listet as the most wanted > > feature > >>> it think. > >>> > >>> My questions: > >>> - How long will it take until moved or deleted files will be > > reconized ? > >> Someone's got to do the work. Looks like someone has been doing > >> preliminary work on it as of late, but I don't expect that it will be > > in > >> Bacula 2.2 (I could be wrong), so it will be awhile. > > > > Maybe this is a pain in the a** for a lot of people here. If noone is > > willing to tackle that problem, why don´t we all donate some money and > > pay someone to do it? > > It very well might be. For me, it is not such a problem. The biggest > concern for me, I think, is that if I restore a system with user quotas, > I might end up with some people over quota if they tend to add and > delete files a lot. In cases where files merely change a lot, this is > not really an issue. > > >>> - Is there a workaround ? > >> Don't do anything but full backups, and you will not have this > > problem. > >> To my knowledge, you have this problem with incrementals. It is > > somewhat > >> lessened by making heavy use differentials, and eliminated by doing > >> exclusively fulls. > >> > >>> - Why are GUIs more important than fixing the greatest Bug ever? :) > >> Because it is not a bug, it is the way things work. Many commercial > >> backup softwares have exactly the same problem. > > > > I would never use or even pay such a backup software. > > > > I am planing it to use it in companies, not at home for my desktop. > > > > Imagine your Sitation: The whole server goes down. You have a 10 Days > > old full backup and 9 incrementals. > > > > Now you bring the system back up but with inconsitent files and > > contents?! > > > > Try to explain that to you boss or the company you work for?! > > Since you seem to be so sure about the subject, I'd like to see you tell > me which backup software does and does not have this problem. The Webmin Dump Backup Module has not this problem. >My > suspicion is that many of the commercial packages have the same problem > (at least that's what I remember finding out last time I looked into > this). I can't tell right now from looking at the web, as this really > isn't mentioned anyplace. How would you find out whether your choice of > software package has this limitation or not? > > > Once the GUI is done for the "lazy" people, they will find out that > > bacula is missing a reliable and professional reason. > > > > Just my 2 cent. > > > > What scares me is that this issue must be more than one year old, and > > nobody ever really complained or did something about it. > > Like I said, I suspect people are aware of it and can live with it. The > easy solution is to always conduct full backups, not incrementals. How much Storage space do you have? :) For a 200GB drive i would need 6TB to save it all! With webmin dump for example, i need about 300GB all together. Thats a little less than 6TB ;). >It's > all a question of where you want to spend your money. As far as I'm > concerned, making sure Bacula can restore all of my files is more > important than make sure it knows what I've deleted. Thats not really the point. Imagine you removed a few system packages which caused problems. Or someone has reorganized a project folder or moved some source code files to a diffrent place. After a system restore it will never be the same again. If you restore a system with bacula full and incremental, you will not end up with the same system you ran your backup on. Thats pretty scrary for me. Thats the job of a backup software in my eyes. Regards, Mario - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Hi, 25.06.2007 18:32,, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:: > Hello List, Hello Kern, > > i am addressing a well know issue regarding bacula and it´s restore > feature. > I have seen a list where this issue is listet as the most wanted feature > it think. > > My questions: > - How long will it take until moved or deleted files will be reconized ? Until someone implemented, tested and documented it :-) > - Is there a workaround ? As was pointed out already: Use full backups, if not always, at least after serious changes to the OS or major file system reorganizations. > - Why are GUIs more important than fixing the greatest Bug ever? :) Probably because they are more interesting to the ones that count most in implementing new features: The developers. I can quite well understand that Kern, for example, prefers working on a new project, instead of spending his time on re-working old code, analyzing it again, and implementing things that consist of lots of bean-counting. (I could even imagine that your sort of question is not really the best approach to get Kern or any other developer to work on this feature...) Of course, I'm quite sure that offering serious money will help in finding a developer to implement the features you're missing... Regarding dump as an alternative: While dump is available and reliable for many file systems on many operating systems, it's output is far less portable than what Bacula produces, and it's not available for quite a number of real-life filesystems at all - *these* are a major problems for me (and many others, I think). Arno > Thanks, Mario > > > > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > ___ > Bacula-users mailing list > Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users -- Arno Lehmann IT-Service Lehmann www.its-lehmann.de - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Ryan Novosielski wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> I would never use or even pay such a backup software. > >> > >> I am planing it to use it in companies, not at home for my desktop. > >> > >> Imagine your Sitation: The whole server goes down. You have a 10 Days > >> old full backup and 9 incrementals. > >> > >> Now you bring the system back up but with inconsitent files and > >> contents?! > >> > >> Try to explain that to you boss or the company you work for?! > > Since you seem to be so sure about the subject, I'd like to see you tell > me which backup software does and does not have this problem. My > suspicion is that many of the commercial packages have the same problem > (at least that's what I remember finding out last time I looked into > this). I can't tell right now from looking at the web, as this really > isn't mentioned anyplace. How would you find out whether your choice of > software package has this limitation or not? I could be wrong, but I think that feature (catching deletions on incrementals) is somewhat rare. Although, I cannot say that I know *all* backup programs thoroughly. The only program I know that does it is Retrospect (used to be Dantz and is now EMC). When I was using them, they made a catalog of your system for each backup, including incrementals, and could restore to the state represented by the catalog. That simply isn't the frame of reference that most backup software starts from. They also did some other magical tricks like identifying duplicate files among multiple backup clients and not duplicating them on the backup (requiring serious coordination between the backup server and the backup clients). This resulted in very space efficient and bandwidth efficient network backups when you had whole departments of similarly configured machines. I was no longer able to use them when I was no longer a Mac network manager. Since then they've branched out to Windows, and I believe they also have linux, but I have no idea how well it works. Also, they are commercial. You have to buy licenses based on how many servers and clients you have, and you can't see the code or contribute to it. So that puts you in a different arena. I have no idea how they are doing in the current competitive environment. --- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Erdös 4 - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
On Monday 25 June 2007 22:45, Arno Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > 25.06.2007 18:32,, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:: > > Hello List, Hello Kern, > > > > i am addressing a well know issue regarding bacula and it´s restore > > feature. > > I have seen a list where this issue is listet as the most wanted feature > > it think. > > > > My questions: > > - How long will it take until moved or deleted files will be reconized ? > > Until someone implemented, tested and documented it :-) > > > - Is there a workaround ? > > As was pointed out already: Use full backups, if not always, at least > after serious changes to the OS or major file system reorganizations. > > > - Why are GUIs more important than fixing the greatest Bug ever? :) > > Probably because they are more interesting to the ones that count most > in implementing new features: The developers. It is true that bat is a far more interesting project for a programmer than the moved and deleted files problem. Unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure of being able to work on it much lately (just ask Dirk). I've been spending *way* too much time on bugs (not even features like moved and delete files). > > I can quite well understand that Kern, for example, prefers working on > a new project, instead of spending his time on re-working old code, > analyzing it again, and implementing things that consist of lots of > bean-counting. What you say is absolutely 100% true (nice to hear it from someone else), but in this particular case, the root of problem was I thought we had the project covered because a seasoned developer signed up for it, but seemingly did nothing on it (that I saw anyway) for four or five months then left the project, rendering the #1 voted project dead in the water :-( > > (I could even imagine that your sort of question is not really the > best approach to get Kern or any other developer to work on this > feature...) Quite true. Here is a nice quote I found the other day that is may be appropriate -- though I don't want to imply that any Bacula users are ingrates: "Linux users can, at times, be the worst kind of ingrates, whining and complaining about what they perceive as missing features in a free operating system. My advice to all such whingers: spend 10 days using the latest version of Windows and you'll realise that you are living in a world of relative bliss." I didn't make that up :-) The link to it is: http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/13114/1090/ > > Of course, I'm quite sure that offering serious money will help in > finding a developer to implement the features you're missing... That is also quite true. Somehow the offer or monetary compensation has a magic way of arousing great enthusiasm for otherwise boring projects. We don't get many donations -- for a utility that is so critical to people who use it, I wonder why. Anyway I just looked at the donations list (I look about once a month) and suprise thanks Jeff and Brennon, that helps :-) We haven't been ignoring this project, and an inspection of the recent archives will show that we have been discussing hash table lookups and red/black trees for use in this project. In fact, I was planning to write up a detailed implementation plan this weekend, but then there were bugs, bugs, bugs ... > > Regarding dump as an alternative: While dump is available and reliable > for many file systems on many operating systems, it's output is far > less portable than what Bacula produces, and it's not available for > quite a number of real-life filesystems at all - *these* are a major > problems for me (and many others, I think). You should read what Linus has to say about dump! I don't remember his exact words but something to the effect that "yes, it seems to work, but if you really understood kernel caching, you would realize that it cannot work and that one day you will get burned." That's paraphrased. By the way, aside from tar, dump is the major component of Amanda :-) I wonder when the Zmanda VCs will realize that they spent $13 million for dump technology that Linus says is destined to break :-) amusing (at least to me). Kern - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Hi, 25.06.2007 23:35,, Kern Sibbald wrote:: ... > Here is a nice quote I found the other day that is may be appropriate -- > though I don't want to imply that any Bacula users are ingrates: Oh, I try to be as polite as possible :-) More seriously: I don't think Mario was whining, but rather is worried about his data (which is a reasonable approach to data in most cases :-) and my answer was supposed to be give him a hint of what *not* to do when he wants progess on that project. ... >> Regarding dump as an alternative: While dump is available and reliable >> for many file systems on many operating systems, it's output is far >> less portable than what Bacula produces, and it's not available for >> quite a number of real-life filesystems at all - *these* are a major >> problems for me (and many others, I think). > > You should read what Linus has to say about dump! I don't remember his exact > words but something to the effect that "yes, it seems to work, but if you > really understood kernel caching, you would realize that it cannot work and > that one day you will get burned." That's paraphrased. I think that's close to the actual words... but I understand that Linus tends to use strong words. Also, I don't know if for other OSes the same would apply. For example, I would trust the BSD people, or sun, to implement their UFS in a way that can reliably be dumped. Also a by the way: As far as I know, there is no dump for ZFS, and there are good reasons for that... > By the way, aside > from tar, dump is the major component of Amanda :-) One of the reasons I don't like Amanda. > I wonder when the Zmanda > VCs will realize that they spent $13 million for dump technology that Linus > says is destined to break :-) amusing (at least to me). I'm quite sure they know, but they know a bit about markeing. Or rather, the management they installed for Zmanda does. Anyway, my impression still is that there is *no* perfect backup tool in existence (but we're working on it ;-) Arno > Kern -- Arno Lehmann IT-Service Lehmann www.its-lehmann.de - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Kern Sibbald wrote: > You should read what Linus has to say about dump! I don't remember his exact > words but something to the effect that "yes, it seems to work, but if you > really understood kernel caching, you would realize that it cannot work and > that one day you will get burned." That's paraphrased. By the way, aside > from tar, dump is the major component of Amanda :-) I wonder when the Zmanda > VCs will realize that they spent $13 million for dump technology that Linus > says is destined to break :-) amusing (at least to me). I've heard many times, from many people, that dump is broken on linux. Most linux users of amanda use gtar -- not dump. Most Solaris users of amanda use ufsdump. I've never heard that ufsdump is broken. Neither dump nor tar are components of amanda. They come with the client OS or are installed there by the sysadmin separately from amanda. If you're clever enough to do it, you can even stream other backup output to amanda instead. --- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Erdös 4 - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Kern Sibbald wrote: > You should read what Linus has to say about dump! I don't remember his > exact words but something to the effect that "yes, it seems to work, but if > you really understood kernel caching, you would realize that it cannot work > and that one day you will get burned." That's paraphrased. By the way, > aside It sounds like you're talking about this quote from Linus, regarding the fact that dump works by reading the underlying device rather than going through the filesystem API of the kernel: >> Note that dump simply won't work reliably at all even in 2.4.x: the >> buffer cache and the page cache (where all the actual data is) are not >> coherent. This is only going to get even worse in 2.5.x, when the >> directories are moved into the page cache as well. >> >> So anybody who depends on "dump" getting backups right is already playing >> Russian roulette with their backups. It's not at all guaranteed to get >> the right results - you may end up having stale data in the buffer cache >> that ends up being "backed up". >> >> Dump was a stupid program in the first place. Leave it behind. > from tar, dump is the major component of Amanda :-) I wonder when the > Zmanda VCs will realize that they spent $13 million for dump technology > that Linus says is destined to break :-) amusing (at least to me). More fodder for a Bacula vs other programs page... =) -- Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu | For every problem, there is a solution that WPI Network Engineer | is simple, elegant, and wrong. - HL Mencken GPG fingerprint = 6174 1257 129E 0D21 D8D4 E8A3 8E39 29E3 E2E8 8CEC - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Hi, 25.06.2007 23:58,, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:: > > Kern Sibbald wrote: >> You should read what Linus has to say about dump! I don't remember his >> exact >> words but something to the effect that "yes, it seems to work, but if you >> really understood kernel caching, you would realize that it cannot work and >> that one day you will get burned." That's paraphrased. By the way, aside >> from tar, dump is the major component of Amanda :-) I wonder when the >> Zmanda >> VCs will realize that they spent $13 million for dump technology that Linus >> says is destined to break :-) amusing (at least to me). > > > I've heard many times, from many people, that dump is broken on linux. > > Most linux users of amanda use gtar -- not dump. That makes me wonder - how does gtar handle extended attributes? A google search didn't reveal anything definite, and the manual doesn't mention them, too. > Most Solaris users of amanda use ufsdump. I've never heard that ufsdump > is broken. Hmm... not broken per se, but it's got the problem with portability. > Neither dump nor tar are components of amanda. They come with the client > OS or are installed there by the sysadmin separately from amanda. If > you're clever enough to do it, you can even stream other backup output > to amanda instead. I checked on the Zmanda site, and a quick search seems to indicate that they recommend gtar and dump as choices for the actual backups. The fact that you can implant other methods using custom backup commands may make the resulting backups even less portable, I think. As amanda is built around the OS tools for backup and restore - dump and tar - it just has to work with their problems. Bacula, on the other hand, has it's own problems to handle :-) Arno -- Arno Lehmann IT-Service Lehmann www.its-lehmann.de - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
On Tuesday 26 June 2007 00:53, Frank Sweetser wrote: > Kern Sibbald wrote: > > You should read what Linus has to say about dump! I don't remember his > > exact words but something to the effect that "yes, it seems to work, but if > > you really understood kernel caching, you would realize that it cannot work > > and that one day you will get burned." That's paraphrased. By the way, > > aside > > It sounds like you're talking about this quote from Linus, regarding the fact > that dump works by reading the underlying device rather than going through the > filesystem API of the kernel: > > >> Note that dump simply won't work reliably at all even in 2.4.x: the > >> buffer cache and the page cache (where all the actual data is) are not > >> coherent. This is only going to get even worse in 2.5.x, when the > >> directories are moved into the page cache as well. > >> > >> So anybody who depends on "dump" getting backups right is already playing > >> Russian roulette with their backups. It's not at all guaranteed to get > >> the right results - you may end up having stale data in the buffer cache > >> that ends up being "backed up". > >> > >> Dump was a stupid program in the first place. Leave it behind. > > Yes, that is the quote. Thanks. > > > from tar, dump is the major component of Amanda :-) I wonder when the > > Zmanda VCs will realize that they spent $13 million for dump technology > > that Linus says is destined to break :-) amusing (at least to me). > > More fodder for a Bacula vs other programs page... =) > > -- > Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu | For every problem, there is a solution that > WPI Network Engineer | is simple, elegant, and wrong. - HL Mencken > GPG fingerprint = 6174 1257 129E 0D21 D8D4 E8A3 8E39 29E3 E2E8 8CEC > - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
On 2007.06.25. 23:04, Ryan Novosielski wrote: ... >> Imagine your Sitation: The whole server goes down. You have a 10 Days >> old full backup and 9 incrementals. >> >> Now you bring the system back up but with inconsitent files and >> contents?! >> >> Try to explain that to you boss or the company you work for?! > > Since you seem to be so sure about the subject, I'd like to see you tell > me which backup software does and does not have this problem. My > suspicion is that many of the commercial packages have the same problem > (at least that's what I remember finding out last time I looked into > this). I can't tell right now from looking at the web, as this really > isn't mentioned anyplace. How would you find out whether your choice of > software package has this limitation or not? tivoli has an ability to keep a specified changed versions of files that are still on the disk and a specified amount of versions for files that have been deleted (that is, if you overwrite a file 3 times, only two latest revisions are kept. if you delete it, only single last revision is kept. or the other way around). this also includes the ability to keep particular files for a specified amount of days. together this allows for a pretty flexible and hdd space efficient solution. ... -- Rich - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Kern Sibbald schrieb: > > Here is a nice quote I found the other day that is may be appropriate -- > though I don't want to imply that any Bacula users are ingrates: > > "Linux users can, at times, be the worst kind of ingrates, whining and >complaining about what they perceive as missing features in a free >operating system. > >My advice to all such whingers: spend 10 days using the latest version >of Windows and you'll realise that you are living in a world of relative > bliss." > > I didn't make that up :-) The link to it is: > > http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/13114/1090/ > > I am not trying to whine here. I was trying to explain the issue and how important this should be for bacula. Bacula is great, no doubt, but i can´t run full backups every night. My aim was to get attention in the list, discuss the problem and try to get a solution for it. I am sure a lot of people are NOT aware of this issue. I am also sure a LOT of people want and need this issue (me included). I am sure we can solve this if enough people are addressed by this issue. I am not trying to make bacula bad, i just want it to rock :). Regards, Mario - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Arno Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > 25.06.2007 23:58,, Chris Hoogendyk wrote:: > >> Kern Sibbald wrote: >> >>> You should read what Linus has to say about dump! I don't remember his >>> exact >>> words but something to the effect that "yes, it seems to work, but if you >>> really understood kernel caching, you would realize that it cannot work and >>> that one day you will get burned." That's paraphrased. By the way, aside >>> from tar, dump is the major component of Amanda :-) I wonder when the >>> Zmanda >>> VCs will realize that they spent $13 million for dump technology that Linus >>> says is destined to break :-) amusing (at least to me). >>> >> I've heard many times, from many people, that dump is broken on linux. >> >> Most linux users of amanda use gtar -- not dump. >> > > That makes me wonder - how does gtar handle extended attributes? A > google search didn't reveal anything definite, and the manual doesn't > mention them, too. > > >> Most Solaris users of amanda use ufsdump. I've never heard that ufsdump >> is broken. >> > > Hmm... not broken per se, but it's got the problem with portability. > > >> Neither dump nor tar are components of amanda. They come with the client >> OS or are installed there by the sysadmin separately from amanda. If >> you're clever enough to do it, you can even stream other backup output >> to amanda instead. >> > > I checked on the Zmanda site, and a quick search seems to indicate > that they recommend gtar and dump as choices for the actual backups. > The fact that you can implant other methods using custom backup > commands may make the resulting backups even less portable, I think. > > As amanda is built around the OS tools for backup and restore - dump > and tar - it just has to work with their problems. Bacula, on the > other hand, has it's own problems to handle :-) Portability is an interesting question. For bacula, within a site, or across sites, assuming they are using bacula, you can recover data files on different platforms. However, you need bacula to do it, and you still can't take a Solaris OS file or binary and put it on a Linux or Windows system and expect to do anything with it. So user data (assuming it is in a cross platform format) is portable across platforms, but not across backup software. In other words, I can't take a bacula tape and expect to recover it with amanda, Tivoli, NetBackup, etc. So, a faculty member moving to another institution will have to ask them to get bacula running in order to get their data. For amanda, backups are done using the native utilities of the operating system. So amanda is not required. A competent sysadmin can simply read the tape using dd on a Unix system. I'm not sure how they would handle a Solaris tape on a Windows system, but they could read it on a Linux system (if it used gtar rather than ufsdump). The instructions are in simple text on the tape label and the file label (first record respectively on the tape and the files on the tape), including the exact commands required to read the tape. So, with amanda the tape is portable across sites, even if they don't have amanda. But it may not be as portable across platforms (particularly to/from windows) as bacula, assuming that they have bacula running. There is also the question of tape media. If I send an AIT5 tape to a site that uses only LTO3, they are going to have a bit of a problem reading it regardless of how it was written. --- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Erdös 4 - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone's got to do the work. Looks like someone has been doing preliminary work on it as of late, but I don't expect that it will be in Bacula 2.2 (I could be wrong), so it will be awhile. Maybe this is a pain in the a** for a lot of people here. If noone is willing to tackle that problem, why don´t we all donate some money and pay someone to do it? I would support such a move, if money is the issue. Because it is not a bug, it is the way things work. "... given standard backup algorithms " Many commercial backup softwares have exactly the same problem. I would never use or even pay such a backup software. Some of those commercial backup packages run into tens of thousands of dollars. There are only a couple I'm aware of which do it the "right way" Fortunately in bacula, 90% of the work is already done - there is a file database in place. It is mainly a matter of hammering out the right method and cutting code - something I'm afraid I'm no good at. Once the GUI is done for the "lazy" people, they will find out that bacula is missing a reliable and professional reason. See above. There are very few enterprise-grade packages which can do "snapshot" restores via incrementals and they cost a great deal of money. On the flipside: Whoever implements this functionality in Bacula can rest assured that there _will_ be rapid uptake as a result. It's one of the few remaining obstacles to "world domination" - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > Portability is an interesting question. Hammers vs screwdrivers. Bacula is a backup solution, not a data transport one. In any case, one doesn't need a Bacula installation to retrieve a tape's contents - merely bextract. k - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:16:31 +0100 (BST), Alan Brown said: > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >> Someone's got to do the work. Looks like someone has been doing > >> preliminary work on it as of late, but I don't expect that it will be > > in > >> Bacula 2.2 (I could be wrong), so it will be awhile. > > > > Maybe this is a pain in the a** for a lot of people here. If noone is > > willing to tackle that problem, why don't we all donate some money and > > pay someone to do it? > > I would support such a move, if money is the issue. > > >> Because it is not a bug, it is the way things work. > > "... given standard backup algorithms " > > >> Many commercial > >> backup softwares have exactly the same problem. > > > > I would never use or even pay such a backup software. > > Some of those commercial backup packages run into tens of thousands of > dollars. There are only a couple I'm aware of which do it the "right way" > > Fortunately in bacula, 90% of the work is already done - there is a file > database in place. It is mainly a matter of hammering out the right method > and cutting code - something I'm afraid I'm no good at. > > > Once the GUI is done for the "lazy" people, they will find out that > > bacula is missing a reliable and professional reason. > > See above. There are very few enterprise-grade packages which can do > "snapshot" restores via incrementals and they cost a great deal of money. Ironically, lots of open source unix backup systems do implement it! __Martin - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Martin Simmons wrote: >> See above. There are very few enterprise-grade packages which can do >> "snapshot" restores via incrementals and they cost a great deal of money. > > Ironically, lots of open source unix backup systems do implement it! Yes, but only for smaller packages, which is the problem. AB - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Martin Simmons wrote: Because it is not a bug, it is the way things work. >> "... given standard backup algorithms " >> >> Many commercial backup softwares have exactly the same problem. >>> I would never use or even pay such a backup software. >>> >> Some of those commercial backup packages run into tens of thousands of >> dollars. There are only a couple I'm aware of which do it the "right way" >> >> Fortunately in bacula, 90% of the work is already done - there is a file >> database in place. It is mainly a matter of hammering out the right method >> and cutting code - something I'm afraid I'm no good at. >> >> >>> Once the GUI is done for the "lazy" people, they will find out that >>> bacula is missing a reliable and professional reason. >>> >> See above. There are very few enterprise-grade packages which can do >> "snapshot" restores via incrementals and they cost a great deal of money. >> > > Ironically, lots of open source unix backup systems do implement it! > > __Martin "lots"? for example? --- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Erdös 4 - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:46:01 -0400, Chris Hoogendyk said: > > Martin Simmons wrote: > Because it is not a bug, it is the way things work. > > >> "... given standard backup algorithms " > >> > >> > Many commercial > backup softwares have exactly the same problem. > > >>> I would never use or even pay such a backup software. > >>> > >> Some of those commercial backup packages run into tens of thousands of > >> dollars. There are only a couple I'm aware of which do it the "right way" > >> > >> Fortunately in bacula, 90% of the work is already done - there is a file > >> database in place. It is mainly a matter of hammering out the right method > >> and cutting code - something I'm afraid I'm no good at. > >> > >> > >>> Once the GUI is done for the "lazy" people, they will find out that > >>> bacula is missing a reliable and professional reason. > >>> > >> See above. There are very few enterprise-grade packages which can do > >> "snapshot" restores via incrementals and they cost a great deal of money. > >> > > > > Ironically, lots of open source unix backup systems do implement it! > > > > __Martin > > > "lots"? > > for example? star (http://freshmeat.net/projects/star/) dump on Linux dump of FreeBSD GNU tar (well, it tries, but there are bugs) ufsdump on Solaris (OK, this is only recently open source) + all the wrapper scripts for the above __Martin - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Martin Simmons wrote: >> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:46:01 -0400, Chris Hoogendyk said: >> >> Martin Simmons wrote: >> >> Because it is not a bug, it is the way things work. >> >> "... given standard backup algorithms " >> Many commercial >> backup softwares have exactly the same problem. >> >> > I would never use or even pay such a backup software. > > Some of those commercial backup packages run into tens of thousands of dollars. There are only a couple I'm aware of which do it the "right way" Fortunately in bacula, 90% of the work is already done - there is a file database in place. It is mainly a matter of hammering out the right method and cutting code - something I'm afraid I'm no good at. > Once the GUI is done for the "lazy" people, they will find out that > bacula is missing a reliable and professional reason. > > See above. There are very few enterprise-grade packages which can do "snapshot" restores via incrementals and they cost a great deal of money. >>> Ironically, lots of open source unix backup systems do implement it! >>> >>> __Martin >>> >> "lots"? >> >> for example? >> > > star (http://freshmeat.net/projects/star/) > dump on Linux > dump of FreeBSD > GNU tar (well, it tries, but there are bugs) > ufsdump on Solaris (OK, this is only recently open source) > + all the wrapper scripts for the above Ahhh. I see what you mean by "lots." ;-) Note that those are all one-off "backup this partition or directory now" programs. None of them are integrated backup systems like bacula or amanda. The list was just talking about "dump" being broken on Linux. GNU tar "tries"? star is a tar variant that has been stuck in 1.5 alpha versions for over 2 years. I actually found an old star-users email talking about using star through amanda so they could run unattended. I also found some discussions on that list arguing that GNU tar actually did work. So, we're left with ufsdump on Solaris and any wrapper scripts for it? And possibly dump on FreeBSD? And maybe GNU tar. None of those are integrated backup systems. However, they all plug into amanda. So, the implication is that amanda works, giving us "lots"=1. Any other open source integrated backup systems? I've never had much call to do full recoveries with incrementals added on. I guess Sun hardware with mirroring just doesn't fail often enough. ;-) But, I'm running an experiment right now, trashing a file system that's my development space just so I can use ufsrestore to do a full and incremental restore. When it comes to backup and restore, I prefer hands on experience. Ahh, done already. Cool. It worked. Files and directories removed before the incremental ufsdump were restored by the full ufsrestore and then removed by the incremental ufsrestore. Files and directories moved before the incremental ufsdump were restored in their original position by the full ufsrestore and then moved to their new position by the incremental ufsrestore. I didn't actually know that that worked before. Nice to know. 8-) --- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology & Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- Erdös 4 - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:55:42 -0400, Chris Hoogendyk said: > > Martin Simmons wrote: > >> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:46:01 -0400, Chris Hoogendyk said: > >> > >> Martin Simmons wrote: > >> > >> Because it is not a bug, it is the way things work. > >> > >> > "... given standard backup algorithms " > > > > >> Many commercial > >> backup softwares have exactly the same problem. > >> > >> > I would never use or even pay such a backup software. > > > Some of those commercial backup packages run into tens of thousands of > dollars. There are only a couple I'm aware of which do it the "right way" > > Fortunately in bacula, 90% of the work is already done - there is a file > database in place. It is mainly a matter of hammering out the right > method > and cutting code - something I'm afraid I'm no good at. > > > > Once the GUI is done for the "lazy" people, they will find out that > bacula is missing a reliable and professional reason. > > > See above. There are very few enterprise-grade packages which can do > "snapshot" restores via incrementals and they cost a great deal of money. > > > >>> Ironically, lots of open source unix backup systems do implement it! > >>> > >>> __Martin > >>> > >> "lots"? > >> > >> for example? > >> > > > > star (http://freshmeat.net/projects/star/) > > dump on Linux > > dump of FreeBSD > > GNU tar (well, it tries, but there are bugs) > > ufsdump on Solaris (OK, this is only recently open source) > > + all the wrapper scripts for the above > > > Ahhh. I see what you mean by "lots." ;-) > > Note that those are all one-off "backup this partition or directory now" > programs. None of them are integrated backup systems like bacula or amanda. > > The list was just talking about "dump" being broken on Linux. True, but the moved/deleted file tracking is working in dump AFAIK. The problems are just related to backing up a live system, which I think has always been dangerous for dump-like programs on Unix. > GNU tar "tries"? There are various options like --listed-incremental, which work in many cases but have a long history of bugs. > star is a tar variant that has been stuck in 1.5 alpha versions for over > 2 years. I actually found an old star-users email talking about using > star through amanda so they could run unattended. I also found some > discussions on that list arguing that GNU tar actually did work. True, it does always seem to be in alpha :-) > So, we're left with ufsdump on Solaris and any wrapper scripts for it? > And possibly dump on FreeBSD? And maybe GNU tar. > > None of those are integrated backup systems. However, they all plug into > amanda. So, the implication is that amanda works, giving us "lots"=1. > > Any other open source integrated backup systems? I'm sure there are some other wrappers for tar that keep a catalog, though probably not as sophisticated as Bacula or Amanda. > I've never had much call to do full recoveries with incrementals added > on. I guess Sun hardware with mirroring just doesn't fail often enough. > ;-) But, I'm running an experiment right now, trashing a file system > that's my development space just so I can use ufsrestore to do a full > and incremental restore. When it comes to backup and restore, I prefer > hands on experience. > > Ahh, done already. Cool. It worked. Files and directories removed before > the incremental ufsdump were restored by the full ufsrestore and then > removed by the incremental ufsrestore. Files and directories moved > before the incremental ufsdump were restored in their original position > by the full ufsrestore and then moved to their new position by the > incremental ufsrestore. I didn't actually know that that worked before. > Nice to know. 8-) Yes, it is neat. __Martin - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Chris Hoogendyk wrote: > I've never had much call to do full recoveries with incrementals added > on. I guess Sun hardware with mirroring just doesn't fail often enough. > ;-) I've had to do it once for hardware reasons (stray piece of RF shield shorted out backplane on an MSA1000 array and scrambled 5Tb of data) I've had to do it a lot more than once because of user finger faults such as "rm -rf . /filename" It's interesting to see your experience with ufsrestore, because Sun's Solstice backup package has exactly the same problem with restoring deleted files that Bacula (currently) does. - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Hoogendyk Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2007 8:56 AM To: Martin Simmons Cc: bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files [...snip...] Any other open source integrated backup systems? Dirvish - www.dirvish.org daily incremental snapshots via rsync YMMV Brenden - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
On Monday 25 June 2007 19:50:09 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > What scares me is that this issue must be more than one year old, and > nobody ever really complained or did something about it. Well - many voted for it on the last vote - many discusions were on this list during the last year Some already offered monetary support - probably not enough to attract the workforce I once suggested that we could create another supplementary kind of 'vote and donation' system, where we could sign in for a donation of a specific sum of money for specific implementations, and then if the work is not done - nothing is paid. If the necessary sum of money is reached, all donations are to be released and paid and the work done. My reason to suggest this is that it is evident that there is a need for this - many will pay a little to support it and some will and can pay more and it all adds up. I can not make my boss pay a generel donation to Bacula or OSS, but I could make him pay something to get this feature, but only if there were some reasonable way to realize that the money would get the feature build. Where I stand today it is completely in the dark to me what the costs are and how many we are to share it etc.. > > I do not have the time and knowledge to implement this, but i would be > willing to donate in order to get someone to do it properly. > > Regards, Mario > > > > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > ___ > Bacula-users mailing list > Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users -- Regards Steen - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
On Tuesday 26 June 2007 15:16:31 Alan Brown wrote: > > Fortunately in bacula, 90% of the work is already done - there is a file > database in place. So the database does not know of deleted files - only changed and added files. But there is also a snapshot functionality - that you can use to verify your system. It seems that comparing the snapshot to the actual 'full+differential+incremental' picture in the catalog will reveal the deletions - am I wong here? > It is mainly a matter of hammering out the right method > and cutting code - something I'm afraid I'm no good at. > > > Once the GUI is done for the "lazy" people, they will find out that > > bacula is missing a reliable and professional reason. > > See above. There are very few enterprise-grade packages which can do > "snapshot" restores via incrementals and they cost a great deal of money. > > On the flipside: Whoever implements this functionality in Bacula can rest > assured that there _will_ be rapid uptake as a result. It's one of the few > remaining obstacles to "world domination" And living in peace - without risking grumpy users and clients that have to redelete files after a break and restore. -- Regards Steen - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Hi, 01.07.2007 00:48,, Steen wrote:: ... > I once suggested that we could create another supplementary kind of 'vote and > donation' system, where we could sign in for a donation of a specific sum of > money for specific implementations, and then if the work is not done - > nothing is paid. If the necessary sum of money is reached, all donations are > to be released and paid and the work done. > My reason to suggest this is that it is evident that there is a need for > this - many will pay a little to support it and some will and can pay more > and it all adds up. > I can not make my boss pay a generel donation to Bacula or OSS, but I could > make him pay something to get this feature, but only if there were some > reasonable way to realize that the money would get the feature build. > Where I stand today it is completely in the dark to me what the costs are and > how many we are to share it etc.. I'm currently creating a system to manage feature requests and votes, and I'll consider your ideas. I would even offer to manage the funding and development, but that would be a service I'd expect to be paid for (rather minimal, but...). Others could offer that service, too - I'll be careful to not monopolize any sort of Bacula support. Currently, I think that I will present my feature request / voting system in the next few days, and that it should be usable in a few weeks. Arno -- Arno Lehmann IT-Service Lehmann www.its-lehmann.de - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
Søndag 01 juli 2007 23:18 skrev Arno Lehmann: > Currently, I think that I will present my feature request / voting > system in the next few days, and that it should be usable in a few weeks. > > Arno Looking forward to that :-) -- Cheers Steen - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
On Sun, 1 Jul 2007, Steen wrote: > On Tuesday 26 June 2007 15:16:31 Alan Brown wrote: >> >> Fortunately in bacula, 90% of the work is already done - there is a file >> database in place. > So the database does not know of deleted files - only changed and added files. An extra field can take care of that... > But there is also a snapshot functionality - that you can use to verify your > system. ... or the snaopshot can be saved after each incremental. > It seems that comparing the snapshot to the > actual 'full+differential+incremental' picture in the catalog will reveal the > deletions - am I wong here? No >> On the flipside: Whoever implements this functionality in Bacula can rest >> assured that there _will_ be rapid uptake as a result. It's one of the few >> remaining obstacles to "world domination" > And living in peace - without risking grumpy users and clients that have to > redelete files after a break and restore. Redelete, and re-position files, in the case of directory tree rearrangements. AB - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
El lun, 02-07-2007 a las 13:35 +0100, Alan Brown escribió: > On Sun, 1 Jul 2007, Steen wrote: > > > On Tuesday 26 June 2007 15:16:31 Alan Brown wrote: > >> > >> Fortunately in bacula, 90% of the work is already done - there is a file > >> database in place. > > So the database does not know of deleted files - only changed and added > > files. > > An extra field can take care of that... My two cents: May be could be possible for bacula-fd to collect/transmit to bacula-dir the creation/modification time for each file to be backed up and add this two values into two new fields for file table. In case of 'near X time' restore, this values could be queried to point to the 'correct' file to restore. D. - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] The thing with restoring Moved and Deleted files
On Mon, 2 Jul 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > My two cents: > > May be could be possible for bacula-fd to collect/transmit to bacula-dir > the creation/modification time for each file to be backed up and add > this two values into two new fields for file table. In case of 'near X > time' restore, this values could be queried to point to the 'correct' > file to restore. You missed the scenario of files appearing with ctime/mtime PRIOR to the last backup. This can happen if a filesystem was unmounted during past backups or if a directory tree is moved. Mtime/ctime should already be saved, as they're restored along with file content. - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
