Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> without wishing to enter this arena of discussion again because its one
> requirement seems to be instant and rapid response [and this servant] is
> used to detailed analysis and reverence and thoughtful response__ without
> wishing to re-enter the "foray" again, I [khazeh] would say something as my
> humble name is being mentioned.
Dear Khazeh,
I know you might not like the pace of discussions but from my
perspective I am one of the few Muslims who participates in these
forums and on a regular basis am aholding several conversations at
once with a group of people. People are always firing back at me in
"rapid response" and I have to do the same just to keep up with the
pace of the conversation. I do put a certain amount of thought into my
responses although at times I might lose patience, especially if a
subject has already been discussed before or if the other person
adopts a certain tone. I would say that if the other person wants to
control the pace of the conversation, it would be easier for them to
wait than for me to wait.
Khazeh:
> All i would say is that Scott [and Iskandar] seem to have captured the
> essence of that which I wanted to convey.
>
> I love with all my heart and soul Islam but I love with all my heart and
> soul the Gospel of Saint John and Isaiah and Jeremiah.
>
>From my perspective that sounds like exageration in the sense that I
would say you can only love one thing with "all your heart".
Khazeh:
> In other words however lowly i am i wish to identify with the position of
> the martyred uncle of the Bab and i would beg and beseech once again brother
> Gilberto to consider the real implications of this:
> **"Your Excellency," boldly replied Haji Mirza Siyyid Ali, "if others before
> me, who quaffed joyously the cup of martyrdom, have chosen to reject an
> appeal such as the one you now make to me, know of a certainty that I am no
> less eager to decline such a request. My repudiation of the truths enshrined
> in this Revelation would be tantamount to a rejection of all the Revelations
> that have preceded it. To refuse to acknowledge the Mission of the
> Siyyid-i-Báb would be to apostatise from the Faith of my forefathers and to
> deny the Divine character of the Message which Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, and
> all the Prophets of the past have revealed. God knows that whatever I have
> heard and read concerning the sayings and doings of those Messengers, I have
> been privileged to witness the same from this Youth, this beloved Kinsman of
> mine, from His earliest boyhood to this, the thirtieth year of His life.
> Everything in Him reminds me of His illustrious Ancestor and of the imams of
> His Faith whose lives our recorded traditions have portrayed. I only request
> of you that you allow me to be 448 the first to lay down my life in the
> path of my beloved Kinsman."
> (Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 447)
>
Ok. I"ve read that. You've quoted that same passage to me before.
Right now, it is just a claim. There is no evidence for it. There is
no compelling reason to believe it.
So I basically have to just leave it alone.
Peace
Gilberto
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re: Is it Possible to Understand Without Believing?
Sure. In my own case, I read and understood the Baha'i Writings stating that
Muhammad was a Prophet of God equal to Christ and Baha'u'llah. It took me ten
years to accept that.
Brent
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Is it Possible to Understand Without Believing?
Hi Gilberto,
>Do you think it is possible to understand the Bahai writings withoutbelieving in them?<
There are levels of understanding, of course; this is true for all religions.
At a surface level, most people can understand the sentences in
the Baha'i writings. There is some unusual vocabulary (e.g. Daystar),
but if a person learns that, it is possible to understand something.
I think a non-believer can have a profound understanding, if his mind
and heart are open to spiritual teachings. The same is true of the Quran.
In my view, there is a type of understanding which can only be attained by someone
who believes. I think this is ineffable.
Tim Nolan
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
Ok. I heard you. So then I asked you to tell me specifically where I"mwrong. If you don't think I get it, what is it specifically that I'mnot seeing? Did I say something that wasn't true? Did I ommitsomething important? Something else? What?Haj:
You oversimplify Baha'i principles.
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 10/23/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam wrote:> > Gilberto:> > Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you> > need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be> > wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm?> > Haj:> > I think I would agree that for me to understand the Quran and Islam, I would> > have to look at it through the Muslim paradigm.Gilberto:> > So do Bahais understand the Quran?Scott:> > I think the real point is that Baha`i and Muslim viewpoints are not the same and cannot be the same.Gilberto:I think I was already assuming different paradigms.> > > > > > > Main Entry: par·a·digm> > > > > > > 1 : EXAMPLE, P!
ATTERN;
especially : an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype> > > > > > > 2 : an example of a conjugation or declension showing a word in all its inflectional forms> > > > > > > 3 : a philosophical and theor! etical framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated; broadly : a philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind,Scott:> > > > > > > We do not conjugate and decline the language inthe same way, yet to both their use of the language is obvious andproper.To those who ACCEPT the Bab and Baha`u'llah, the language has changed.There are new tenses to the verbs and cases to the nouns and, ineffect, the Covenant which they embrace has been renewed.Gilberto:That's kind of interesting. ORiginally I was thinking you were usingthe "wrong" de!
finition
of paradigm (2 instead of 3) and it is still abit of a stretch, but I think it *is* true that sometimes it seems tome that Bahais are speaking a very different language.Scott:Why should one expect the paradigm to remain the same between Baha`iand Muslim, when it does not remain the same no matter how muchMuslims insist that the paradigm between Muslims and Christians mustbe the same - as Muhammed interprets it.Gilberto:I've interacted alot more on Christian forums than on Bahai forums butI still haven't had the same kind of communication problems there.
Scott (in reply):
Granted, but manyChristians will balk to consider the claim of Trinity as a making of partners with God, or concede that Jesus was taken down from the cross alive, or that the Bible as they know it is flawed. These are all evidences of that paradigm shift, of which I spoke.Scott:I cannot expect you to embrace my paradigm, no matter how much itwould assist the discussion. If you truly embrace my paradigm you areno longer a Muslim.Gilberto:So would you believe that in order to understand the Bahai writingsthat you have to believe in them? And again I would repeat, in orderto understand the Quran, is it necessary to adopt a Muslim paradigm?Scott:You asked Kazeh why if he loved Muhammed he was not a Muslim, that isthe answer - paradigm shift has occured.Gilberto:I think what he said was that he loved Islam with all his heart andsoul and mind.
Scott (in reply):
Well, to love Islam means to most a love of Muhammed. I know that Islam existed according to Muhammed, before His own revelation. Still Kazeh speaks from a Baha`i paradigm, where the voice of Muhammed clearly speaks of continuation of Prophethood and Revelation.
Regards,
Scott
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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RE: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto:So would you believe that in
order to understand the Bahai writings that you have to believe in them? And
again I would repeat, in order to understand the Quran, is it necessary to adopt
a Muslim paradigm?Scott: You asked Khazeh why if he loved
Muhammed he was not a Muslim, that is the answer - paradigm shift has
occurred.Gilberto:I think what he [Khazeh] said was that he loved
Islam with all his heart and soul and
mind.PeaceGilberto
without wishing to enter this arena of discussion
again because its one requirement seems to be instant and rapid response [and
this servant] is used to detailed analysis and reverence and thoughtful
response__ without wishing to re-enter the "foray" again, I [khazeh] would
say something as my humble name is being mentioned.
All i would say is that Scott [and
Iskandar] seem to have captured the essence of that which I wanted to
convey.
I love with all my heart and soul Islam but I
love with all my heart and soul the Gospel of Saint John and Isaiah and
Jeremiah.
As a Baha'i i love [or I am taught] to love with
all my mind and soul the essence.
Many moons ago i quoted the sacred words of the
Guardian in that he defined the Faith of Baha'u'l llah [as the ESSENCE, THE
PROMISE, THE RECONCILER, AND THE UNIFIER OF ALL Religions] =[a Faith which is at
once the essence, the promise, the reconciler, and the unifier of all
religions (Shoghi Effendi)
of course This
Essence is loved by me with all my heart and
soul.
And
Interestingly the attribute of "essence", the ability to unify and reconcile are
INSEPARABLE from the attribute of the Faith of Baha'u'llah as being the Promised
Day of God__the Day of Eschatological Fulfilment __ the Day of
Qiyaamat
In other words
however lowly i am i wish to identify with the position of the martyred uncle of
the Bab and i would beg and beseech once again brother Gilberto to consider the
real implications of this:
**"Your Excellency," boldly replied
Haji Mirza Siyyid Ali, "if others before me, who quaffed joyously the cup of
martyrdom, have chosen to reject an appeal such as the one you now make to me,
know of a certainty that I am no less eager to decline such a request. My
repudiation of the truths enshrined in this Revelation would be tantamount to a
rejection of all the Revelations that have preceded it. To refuse to acknowledge
the Mission of the Siyyid-i-Báb would be to apostatise from the Faith of my
forefathers and to deny the Divine character of the Message which Muhammad,
Jesus, Moses, and all the Prophets of the past have revealed. God knows that
whatever I have heard and read concerning the sayings and doings of those
Messengers, I have been privileged to witness the same from this Youth, this
beloved Kinsman of mine, from His earliest boyhood to this, the thirtieth year
of His life. Everything in Him reminds me of His illustrious Ancestor and of the
imams of His Faith whose lives our recorded traditions have portrayed. I only
request of you that you allow me to be 448 the first to lay down my
life in the path of my beloved Kinsman."
(Shoghi Effendi, The
Dawn-Breakers, p. 447)
finally i believe the paradigm has
shifted but the essence is from God
hoping for true peace for you dear
Gilberto
khazeh if i do not reply it is
because i think very few indeed read what i write...and what i
quote...
Isaiah 55:8
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are
your ways my ways," says Yahweh. (WEB)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are
your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. (ASV)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, or your ways
my ways, says the Lord. (BBE)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are
your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. (DBY)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are
your ways my ways, saith the LORD. (WBS)
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are
your ways My ways, saith the LORD. (JPS)
For not My thoughts 'are' your thoughts, Nor your
ways My ways, -- an affirmation of Jehovah, (YLT)
(CEV) The LORD says: "My thoughts and my ways are not
like yours.
(GNB) "My thoughts," says the LORD, "are not like
yours, and my ways are different from yours.
(KJVA) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither
are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(MKJV) For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor
your ways My ways, says Jehovah.
(MSG) "I don't think the way you think. The way you
work isn't the way I work." GOD's Decree.
(SVD) لأَنَّ أَفْكَارِي لَيْسَتْ أَفْكَارَكُمْ وَلاَ
طُرُقُكُمْ طُرُقِي يَقُولُ الرَّبُّ.
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Gilberto:
> But the things I've said about progressive revelation are actually
> based on things I've read from the writings as well as things I've
> heard from other Bahais.
> Haj:
> But they don't look familiar to me the way to characterize them. I don't
> think I'm alone.
>
Ok. I heard you. So then I asked you to tell me specifically where I"m
wrong. If you don't think I get it, what is it specifically that I'm
not seeing? Did I say something that wasn't true? Did I ommit
something important? Something else? What?
Peace
Gilberto
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, I'm not so sure that there is a "Muslim" paradigm as such: there is
> a Wahhabi Sunni paradigm, there is a Si`ah paradigm, there is a
> Sufi/mystical pradigm, a Hanbali Sunni paradigm, a Shafi`i paradigm, etc.,
> etc.
Yes and no. When people say "paradigm" they don't just mean a single
individual's interpretation of a particular question as opposed to
someone else's. A "paradigm" is something bigger, more general.
To quote the definition which Scott copied:
3 : a philosophical and theor! etical framework of a scientific school
or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the
experiments performed in support of them are formulated; broadly : a
philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind.
So for example some broad parameters of a "Muslim" paradigm of the
Quran might be things like the idea that the commandments of the Quran
are still valid. Or the idea that the "Last Day" is really about the
end of creation and not just a metaphor for the coming of the next
Manifestation. Or the idea that the Quran is the revelation from the
last prophet. Those are examples of big ideas which are part of a
common Muslim paradigm. These details about wudu or the meaning of
specific individual words are not issues of paradigm.
Peace
Gilberto
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam wrote:
> > Gilberto:
> > Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you
> > need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be
> > wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm?
> > Haj:
> > I think I would agree that for me to understand the Quran and Islam, I would
> > have to look at it through the Muslim paradigm.
Gilberto:
> > So do Bahais understand the Quran?
Scott:
> > I think the real point is that Baha`i and Muslim viewpoints are not the
> > same and cannot be the same.
Gilberto:
I think I was already assuming different paradigms.
> > > > > > > Main Entry: par·a·digm
> > > > > > > 1 : EXAMPLE, PATTERN; especially : an outstandingly clear or
> > > > > > > typical example or archetype
> > > > > > > 2 : an example of a conjugation or declension showing a word in
> > > > > > > all its inflectional forms
> > > > > > > 3 : a philosophical and theor! etical framework of a scientific
> > > > > > > school or discipline within which theories, laws, and
> > > > > > > generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them
> > > > > > > are formulated; broadly : a philosophical or theoretical
> > > > > > > framework of any kind,
Scott:> > > > > > > We do not conjugate and decline the language in
the same way, yet to both their use of the language is obvious and
proper.
To those who ACCEPT the Bab and Baha`u'llah, the language has changed.
There are new tenses to the verbs and cases to the nouns and, in
effect, the Covenant which they embrace has been renewed.
Gilberto:
That's kind of interesting. ORiginally I was thinking you were using
the "wrong" definition of paradigm (2 instead of 3) and it is still a
bit of a stretch, but I think it *is* true that sometimes it seems to
me that Bahais are speaking a very different language.
Scott:
Why should one expect the paradigm to remain the same between Baha`i
and Muslim, when it does not remain the same no matter how much
Muslims insist that the paradigm between Muslims and Christians must
be the same - as Muhammed interprets it.
Gilberto:
I've interacted alot more on Christian forums than on Bahai forums but
I still haven't had the same kind of communication problems there.
Scott:
I cannot expect you to embrace my paradigm, no matter how much it
would assist the discussion. If you truly embrace my paradigm you are
no longer a Muslim.
Gilberto:
So would you believe that in order to understand the Bahai writings
that you have to believe in them? And again I would repeat, in order
to understand the Quran, is it necessary to adopt a Muslim paradigm?
Scott:
You asked Kazeh why if he loved Muhammed he was not a Muslim, that is
the answer - paradigm shift has occured.
Gilberto:
I think what he said was that he loved Islam with all his heart and
soul and mind.
Peace
Gilberto
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
But the things I've said about progressive revelation are actuallybased on things I've read from the writings as well as things I'veheard from other Bahais.
Haj:
But they don't look familiar to me the way to characterize them. I don't think I'm alone.
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
So do Bahais understand the Quran?Haj:
See Scott's response.
.
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Well, I'm not so sure that there is a "Muslim" paradigm as such: there is
a Wahhabi Sunni paradigm, there is a Si`ah paradigm, there is a
Sufi/mystical pradigm, a Hanbali Sunni paradigm, a Shafi`i paradigm, etc.,
etc. For example, my understanding is that for a very simple and
straightforward thing as performing the ablutions (wuzu) as stiplulated in
Quran 5:8 about washing your hand/forearms to your elbows there are two
rather significantly divergent readings of the preposition "elA" ("to"):
there is a literal reading of "to" (i.e., was your hands and forearms from
the tip of your fingers to your elbows); and a figurative interpretation
of "to" to mean "from" (i.e., wash your forearms/hands "from" your elbow
up to the tip of your fingertips). Or, 4:62 about obeying God, His
messenger, and oli'l-amr; who is "oli'l-amr"? The Shi`ah gives you one
answer, the Sunni another. Very significantly different. And then the most
foundational Quran 3:5 about "muhkamAt" and "mutashAbihAt" and that God
noweth the ta'wil of Quran, etc., etc. I guess I'd to favor to stay with
the Bab's and Baha'u'llah's reading and interpretation of the Quran when
They speak.
Iskandar
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
>
> Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you
> need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Gilberto:> Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you> need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be> wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm?> Haj:> I think I would agree that for me to understand the Quran and Islam, I would> have to look at it through the Muslim paradigm.So do Bahais understand the Quran?PeaceGilberto
I think the real point is that Baha`i and Muslim viewpoints are not the same and cannot be the same.
Main Entry: par·a·digm Pronunciation: 'per-&-"dIm, 'pa-r&- also -"dimFunction: nounEtymology: Late Latin paradigma, from Greek paradeigma, from paradeiknynai to show side by side, from para- + deiknynai to show -- more at DICTION1 : EXAMPLE, PATTERN; especially : an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype2 : an example of a conjugation or declension showing a word in all its inflectional forms3 : a philosophical and theor!
etical
framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated; broadly : a philosophical or theoretical framework of any kind,
We do not conjugate and decline the language in the same way, yet to both their use of the language is obvious and proper.
To those who ACCEPT the Bab and Baha`u'llah, the language has changed. There are new tenses to the verbs and cases to the nouns and, in effect, the Covenant which they embrace has been renewed.
Why should one expect the paradigm to remain the same between Baha`i and Muslim, when it does not remain the same no matter how much Muslims insist that the paradigm between Muslims and Christians must be the same - as Muhammed interprets it.
I cannot expect you to embrace my paradigm, no matter how much it would assist the discussion. If you truly embrace my paradigm you are no longer a Muslim.
You asked Kazeh why if he loved Muhammed he was not a Muslim, that is the answer - paradigm shift has occured.
This does not mean interfaith dialogue is impossible, it just means one must permit a small amount of paradigm shift to see some arguments presented. One has to approach interfaith dialogue without fear.
Regards,
Scott
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you
> need to see it through the Muslim paradigm?"
> You'd have to persuade me that there is a a single "Muslim paradigm" and
> that this is the same paradigm as the Qur'an itself first.
I was just responding to what Hajir wrote. He seemed to be making
analogous assumptions about the Bahai faith. I was just paralleling
his wording. I would agree that there are different tafsirs of the
Quran so there is some variation in how certain things are read. At
the same time, there are certain passages which are certain parameters
which are universal or near universal but which are different from the
Bahai faith's.
I don't know what you mean by "same paradigm as the Quran itself".
>From a certain perspective the text is just there. Muslims approach it
one way. Bahais approach it a different way. Christians a different
way. Five Percenters yet a different way. Members of the Nation of
Islam yet another way. I would argue that Muslims are closer to the
revelation of the text and are much more strongly motivated to read
the text for itself so I would take Muslim interpreters much more
seriously and treat them as more authentic than the others. But again,
I'm not sure how else you would define "same paradigm as the Quran
itself"
Peace
Gilberto
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Haj:
> > Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all.
> > You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing
> > against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree.
> Gilberto:
> Part of me mentioning the amount of time I've been in these forums is
> to point out that I have been hearing ALOT of what Bahais have been
> saying in terms of their own belief. So you just telling me that I
> don't understand isn't all that useful because from my perspective,
> I'm summarizing the things I've actually been hearing from Bahais.
Gilberto:
> Maybe it would be easier if you just explained your own understanding
> of progressive revelation. (Assuming you want to keep discussing these
> issues. But if not that's ok too.)
> Haj:
> I don't think my explanation of the Baha'i view of Progressive Revelation
> would be all that useful to you, because you would be seeing Progressive
> Revelation from MY eyes, my paradigm, not the Baha'i Faith's
> (Baha'u'llah-Abdu'l-Baha-Shoghi Effendi-House of Justice-the Bab).
But the things I've said about progressive revelation are actually
based on things I've read from the writings as well as things I've
heard from other Bahais.
Peace
gilberto
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto:
> Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you
> need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be
> wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm?
> Haj:
> I think I would agree that for me to understand the Quran and Islam, I would
> have to look at it through the Muslim paradigm.
So do Bahais understand the Quran?
Peace
Gilberto
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RE: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
"Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you
need to see it through the Muslim paradigm?"
You'd have to persuade me that there is a a single "Muslim paradigm" and
that this is the same paradigm as the Qur'an itself first.
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
> Haj:> Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all.> You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing> against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree.
Gilberto:Part of me mentioning the amount of time I've been in these forums isto point out that I have been hearing ALOT of what Bahais have beensaying in terms of their own belief. So you just telling me that Idon't understand isn't all that useful because from my perspective,I'm summarizing the things I've actually been hearing from Bahais.Maybe it would be easier if you just explained your own understandingof progressive revelation. (Assuming you want to keep discussing theseissues. But if not that's ok too.)
---
Haj:
I don't think my explanation of the Baha'i view of Progressive Revelation would be all that useful to you, because you would be seeing Progressive Revelation from MY eyes, my paradigm, not the Baha'i Faith's (Baha'u'llah-Abdu'l-Baha-Shoghi Effendi-House of Justice-the Bab).
My explanation of Progressive Revelation would be an introduction to what Baha'u'llah really taught, my view of them. Sure, since I (or someone else here) may have read more of the Baha'i writings and may know more about the Baha'i history than you do, I (we) would be able to help you focus in on what the Baha'i Writings mean by saying X and Y.
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Re: believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto:
Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran youneed to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would bewrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm?
Haj:
I think I would agree that for me to understand the Quran and Islam, I would have to look at it through the Muslim paradigm. And I think fully understanding Islam from the Muslim paradigm would actually help me better understand the Baha'i Faith through the Baha'i paradigm. I am convinced that if I look at the Qur'an from the Muslim paradigm, I will find truth in it, because it is from God. I would be able to recognize the Voice of God in it, independent of the Baha'i Revelation.
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believing v. understanding Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto:
> Do you think it
> is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it?
> Haj:
> Not sure if you have to believe in it, but you sure do have to see it
> through its own paradigm. Let me know how I can help.
Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you
need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be
wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm?
> Gilberto:
> Are there specific misstatements, lies, errors, omissions, you can
> point to which I have made in talking about Progressive Revelation?
> Haj:
> Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all.
> You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing
> against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree.
Part of me mentioning the amount of time I've been in these forums is
to point out that I have been hearing ALOT of what Bahais have been
saying in terms of their own belief. So you just telling me that I
don't understand isn't all that useful because from my perspective,
I'm summarizing the things I've actually been hearing from Bahais.
Maybe it would be easier if you just explained your own understanding
of progressive revelation. (Assuming you want to keep discussing these
issues. But if not that's ok too.)
Peace
Gilberto
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
(question directed at Hajir)
> "Do you think it
> is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it?"
> Dear Gilberto,
> Sure. Especially if one is prepared to listen for the Word of God whether
> one is certain it can be found there or not.
Do you think it is possible to understand the Bahai writings without
believing in them?
Peace
Gilberto
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RE: Fwd: Interesting thread
"Do you think it
is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it?"
Dear Gilberto,
Sure. Especially if one is prepared to listen for the Word of God whether
one is certain it can be found there or not.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Gilberto: I have spent a chunk of time in this forum and soc.religion.bahaitrying to better understand the Bahai faith.
Haj:
Tell me something I don't know. : )
Gilberto:I might just take you up on that. I"m curious though. Do you think itis possible to understand a religious text without believing in it?
Haj:
Not sure if you have to believe in it, but you sure do have to see it through its own paradigm. Let me know how I can help.
Gilberto:Are there specific misstatements, lies, errors, omissions, you canpoint to which I have made in talking about Progressive Revelation?Haj:
Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all. You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree.
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Good morning,
Good morning : )
Gilberto:
> > I haven't seen any evidence. I've seen Bahai attempts at explaining
> > the Quran in a non-mainstream way, but that's all. The Bahai
> > interpretations aren't particularly compelling to me.
Hajir:
> Its interesting, because I have not been convinced that your way of looking
> at it is all that compelling either.
Gilberto:
I'm not trying to convert you.
Hajir:
> Maybe part of the problem with your
> explanations (which to me lack clarity anyway) is that they are not all that
> well thought-out in the *right way*. I suggest, for you message to come
> across better and more convincing, that you read more writings of
> Baha'u'llah and understand them the way we understand them.
I have spent a chunk of time in this forum and soc.religion.bahai
trying to better understand the Bahai faith.
> Then, you should read from the writings of Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and
> understand them the way we understand them. Then, you can base your
> arguments off legitimate Baha'i point-of-view.
Gilberto:
I might just take you up on that. I"m curious though. Do you think it
is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it?
Hajir:
> A basic Baha'i principle is Progressive Revelation, but you have not been
> able to articulate what the Baha'i view of this principle really is. Your
> arguments against Progressive Revelation don't come across because you are
> basing your arguments off of an interpretation of "Progressive Revelation"
> that Baha'is ourselves don't accept or believe in ourselves .
Gilberto:
Are there specific misstatements, lies, errors, omissions, you can
point to which I have made in talking about Progressive Revelation?
Hajir:
> Another basic Baha'i principle is oneness of Religions, but you have not
> been able to articualte this either, & your arguments against our view don't
> come across because you aren't arguing *against* our view of it anyway, you
> are arguing against a hypothetical concept of oneness of religions that we
> don't accept ourselves.
Gilberto:
I honestly don't remember addressing the idea of "oneness of
religions" at all very recently. I wonder what you are refering to.
And again, I wonder if you have specific, misstatements, lies, errors,
omissions in mind?
Peace
Gilberto
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Re: Fwd: Interesting thread
Good morning,
> I haven't seen any evidence. I've seen Bahai attempts at explaining> the Quran in a non-mainstream way, but that's all. The Bahai> interpretations aren't particularly compelling to me.
Its interesting, because I have not been convinced that your way of looking at it is all that compelling either. Maybe part of the problem with your explanations (which to me lack clarity anyway) is that they are not all that well thought-out in the *right way*. I suggest, for you message to come across better and more convincing, that you read more writings of Baha'u'llah and understand them the way we understand them. Then, you should read from the writings of Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and understand them the way we understand them. Then, you can base your arguments off legitimate Baha'i point-of-view. It would come across more genuine that way.
A basic Baha'i principle is Progressive Revelation, but you have not been able to articulate what the Baha'i view of this principle really is. Your arguments against Progressive Revelation don't come across because you are basing your arguments off of an interpretation of "Progressive Revelation" that Baha'is ourselves don't accept or believe in ourselves .
Another basic Baha'i principle is oneness of Religions, but you have not been able to articualte this either, & your arguments against our view don't come across because you aren't arguing *against* our view of it anyway, you are arguing against a hypothetical concept of oneness of religions that we don't accept ourselves.
I think this is the case for every single Baha'i Principle we've discussed.
Just some advice,
Hajir
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