Re: Baha'i Faith and the Bible
The Baha'i believe in the virgin birth is based largely on the
testimony of the Qur'an, not the Bible.
Then why do we reject Noah's Ark? I've never seen any proof from the Qur'an
that it wasn't meant to be taken literally. And how about the seven
sleepers of Ephesus myth? Are we to believe that as historical as well?
Regards,
David
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This did not come through; so, I'm re-sending it again...
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> > Gilberto:
> > Sure. As a Bahai it makes sense to you to view Islam uncharitably and
> > construe it in a rigid unflattering way. While Muslims who view it as
> > a religion which should actually be practiced in modern times are
> > somehow "mysteriously" able to find more flexible ways to apply Islam
> > as a living religion.
> >
> > -gilberto
> >
>
> Muslims can and do practice Islamic law in modern societies by
> either ignoring some laws, explaining them away, interpreting them away or
> the like. There is no mystery to it
Yes, your comment is a perfect example of the kind of rigidity I'm
talking about.
-Gilberto
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
I've been answering you all along. You tend to think in a way which is
different from the way I think. And so when I'm trying to be precise
and unambiguous and nuanced, you think I'm being evasive. I doubt that
any answer I would give would make sense before addressing some of the
implicit assumptions which are contained in your questions.
If I felt that your questions were sincere requests for information,
then I would probably answer in really forthcoming ways. But if it
feels like you want to verbally fence in order to win some kind of
argument, then you can't fault me for trying to be more precise.
-Gilberto
On 1/26/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After five dodges you say "No". Okay. I guess the old adage is true: "There
> is none so blind as he who will not see." The parallel is obvioujs to me.
>
> Regards,
> Scott
>
> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors wrote:
> > But its okay for you to ask a Baha`i what he might think about Islam? And
> > then base an argument on the reply?
>
> Your question seems really vague. I'm not sure what you are asking.
>
> > I'm asking if there is a similarity between what you suggest about Islamic
> > belief in the direction of the Qiblih and belief in the authority of the
> > House of Justice for Baha`i's.
>
> Offhand, I would say no. In general, each religion should be looked at
> on its own terms, with all its uniquenes! s. After studying the various
> religions, you might see patterns and similarities, but you can't
> really assume that they are there to begin with.
>
> > Assuming that you are a non-Baha`i, and I have STILL asked and asked this
> > particular question because I think an answer would further the discussion
> > and you still will not do so, is that not obfuscation? I would answer
> "yes",
> > it is.
>
> I answered your question. I would sincerely suggest that you just read
> what I wrote, demonstrate a little patience and think about it.
>
> -Gilberto
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
After five dodges you say "No". Okay. I guess the old adage is true: "There is none so blind as he who will not see." The parallel is obvioujs to me. Regards, ScottGilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> But its okay for you to ask a Baha`i what he might think about Islam? And> then base an argument on the reply?Your question seems really vague. I'm not sure what you are asking.> I'm asking if there is a similarity between what you suggest about Islamic> belief in the direction of the Qiblih and belief in the authority of the> House of Justice for Baha`i's.Offhand, I would say no. In general, each religion should be looked aton its own terms, with all its uniquenes!
s. After
studying the variousreligions, you might see patterns and similarities, but you can'treally assume that they are there to begin with.> Assuming that you are a non-Baha`i, and I have STILL asked and asked this> particular question because I think an answer would further the discussion> and you still will not do so, is that not obfuscation? I would answer "yes",> it is.I answered your question. I would sincerely suggest that you just readwhat I wrote, demonstrate a little patience and think about it.-GilbertoThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipie!
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But its okay for you to ask a Baha`i what he might think about Islam? And
> then base an argument on the reply?
Your question seems really vague. I'm not sure what you are asking.
> I'm asking if there is a similarity between what you suggest about Islamic
> belief in the direction of the Qiblih and belief in the authority of the
> House of Justice for Baha`i's.
Offhand, I would say no. In general, each religion should be looked at
on its own terms, with all its uniqueness. After studying the various
religions, you might see patterns and similarities, but you can't
really assume that they are there to begin with.
> Assuming that you are a non-Baha`i, and I have STILL asked and asked this
> particular question because I think an answer would further the discussion
> and you still will not do so, is that not obfuscation? I would answer "yes",
> it is.
I answered your question. I would sincerely suggest that you just read
what I wrote, demonstrate a little patience and think about it.
-Gilberto
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Re: Judaism 101 was Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
Dear Benjamin, I very much appreciated the tone and intention behind your post.
-Gilberto
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Re: Baha'i Faith and the Bible
> James McConkey Robinson, associated with the Nag Hammadi Library -
> impressive credentials!.
That's the one! The name of the library had slipped my tongue. What
Robinson uncovered was the fact that gnostic Christians were having
visions of the 'resurrected Jesus' who always appeared to them as a
being of light. He theorizes that the resurrection came to be
considered much more concrete as the church tried to stop all these
ressurrection appearances that were taking authority away from the
institutionalized church and placing it in the individual's mystical
experiences. The story of Jesus' ascending after thirty days was a way
of asserting that Jesus that any ressurrection appearances after that
point were not valid. Of course, there remained the problem of Paul's
vision of the ressurrected Jesus which occurred after that.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Judaism 101 was Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
. About 9 years ago, one
> of my very
> close Jewish friends (Reformed) and I had a conversation. She was
> asking me
> about the Baha'i Faith, and during the conversation, I had voiced my
> then-typical routine of explaining that Baha'u'llah is the coming
> of the
> Lord of Hosts and a fulfillment or re-fulfillment of the Messiah
> hopes of
> the Jewish people (at least, according to Baha'is). She was quite
> fascinated by what I was saying, but she proceeded to inform me
> that she
> knew of no Jews who actually believed that the Messiah was
> actually going to
> be a person.
Dear Benjamin,
That is a fairly common belief among Reform Jews, much less common
among the Orthodox. I think Zionism made it more popular because
according to the very Orthodox, Jews weren't supposed to return to
Israel until the Messiah comes.
> Another part of the discussion, interestingly enough, was the fact
> that she
> told me that she was agnostic. Quite honestly, I was so surprised
> by it,
> because I'd never heard such a seeming contradiction. Now, she
wasn't
> claiming to be Jewish by default. She was an active member in a
> synagoguethat she and her husband actively sought out. She told
> me that she didn't
> really think there was a God at all, but couldn't say with
> certainty that
> there wasn't. She said, "Even if there WAS a God, I highly doubt
> he'd have
> any interest in what goes on in our lives." I asked her, "Well,
> what, then,
> makes you Jewish?" She said that there was a lot more to being
> Jewish than
> belief in God. She told me that most of the people in her
> congregation had
> similar views about God.
I once worked as a nanny for a Conservative Jewish family and would
sometimes go to synagogue with them or pick up their children at
Hebrew school. Nearly all the Jews I talked to had the same opinion.
She said that they believed in the
> community, the
> traditions, the rituals, etc., because it's proven to be so
> effective over
> the millenia, and proven to be so effective in their own lives.
My agnostic Orthodox Jew put it to me much more succinctly. When I
asked him why he followed all this minutae of Jewish law when he
didn't even believe in God, he answered "tribalism."
>
> I don't know how wide-spread this view is, but I've since met other
> self-identifying Jews who have confirmed that this view is not
> uncommon.I've never taken it to mean that it's widespread,
I think it is quite widespread among Reform and Conservative Jews and
is even found amongst the Orthodox, as I've mentioned.
> My point in this story is that I was sensing, pretty strongly,
> that Susan
> was trying to make a point that she knows, personally, out-of-the-
> closetatheist/agnostic Orthodox Jews, and that they still identify
> themselves as
> Jews, not only because they were born with a Jewish mother, but
> because this
> is how they are choosing to live their lives.
And even going so far as to say that those born of Jewish mothers who
did not live according to the Torah were not really Jews at all!
To me, it sounded
> as if you
> were dismissing those Orthodox Jews' beliefs because you had
> documented (or,
> quoted) over and over again what they REALLY believe. I think
> that's where
> Susan took offense, if she took offense at all (and I apologize,
> Susan, for
> making assumptions about your feelings).
Yes, that is exactly why I was taking offense.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Baha'i Faith and the Bible
Maybe I didn't read carefully
> enough,
> but I'm not sure he has proven his point. To you and me it looks
> like some
> of the material in the NT supports a physical resurrection, but
> this looks
> to me in conflict with the Baha'i position. Shoghi Effendi says:
>
> We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the
> crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His
> ascension when
> His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and
> realized He was
> eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in
> the New
> Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples
> after
> resurrection is the same thing.
>
> (Shoghi Effendi, High Endeavours - Messages to Alaska, p. 69)
Dear David,
If you read the account of Jesus eating with His disciples you will
find it is *highly* symbolic. I don't think that that saying the NT
reported this symbolically necessarily precludes one or more of the
authors imagining it was literal.
Since Shoghi Effendi
> is
> supposed to be the infallible interpreter of the teachings and he
> thought
> these passages weren't meant to be taken literally, how can it be
> acceptable
> for a Baha'i to believe the verses were meant to be taken
> literally?
What the Guardian is saying is that the event itself was symbolic. As
far as being the 'infallible interpeter of the teachings' goes, that
doesn't necessarily make him and infallible interpreter of every verse
of the Bible. The "teachings" consist of the belief that the
ressurrection was symbolic, not what the authors might have thought
was the case.
> The virgin birth is certainly a matter I have problems with
> historically.
> We have two grossly conflicting narratives of what happened.
The Baha'i believe in the virgin birth is based largely on the
testimony of the Qur'an, not the Bible.
warmest, Susan
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
This did not come through; so, I'm re-sending it again...
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
>
> Gilberto:
> Sure. As a Bahai it makes sense to you to view Islam uncharitably and
> construe it in a rigid unflattering way. While Muslims who view it as
> a religion which should actually be practiced in modern times are
> somehow "mysteriously" able to find more flexible ways to apply Islam
> as a living religion.
>
> -gilberto
>
Baha'is do not view Islam, a Divinely-ordained religion, uncharitably.
Modern day Muslims can and do practice Islamic law in modern societies by
either ignoring some laws, explaining them away, interpreting them away or
the like. There is no mystery to it
Regards,
Iskandar
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Re: Baha'i Faith and the Bible
Sorry, JAMES M. RobinsonScott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:This link to some of John M. Robinson's work might be of interest to the list: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rels/rak/courses/535/nhl.htm Regards, Scott
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: Baha'i Faith and the Bible
This link to some of John M. Robinson's work might be of interest to the list: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rels/rak/courses/535/nhl.htm Regards, Scott[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Which James Robinson? Dear Scott, I'm referring to a famous scholar whose done a lot of work on Egyptian gnostic texts which threw a great deal of light on the question of the ressurrection. warmest, susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state priva!
cy and
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Re: Judaism 101 was Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
We have discussed these issues extensively on this list, not too long ago.
And I have no intention of re-opening the discussion again.
I stand by my comments and I remind you of the three choices that Susan
gave you.
Enough said,
Iskandar
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> Islam, at once the progenitor and persecutor of the Faith of
> Bah'u'llh, is, if we read aright the signs of the times, only
> beginning to sustain the impact of this invincible and triumphant
> Faith. We need only recall the nineteen hundred years of abject misery
> and dispersion which they, who only for the short space of three years
> persecuted the Son of God, have had to endure, and are still enduring.
> We may well ask ourselves, with mingled feelings of dread and awe, how
> severe must be the tribulations of those who, during no less than
> fifty years, have, "at every moment tormented with a fresh torment"
> Him Who is the Father, and who have, in addition, made His
> Herald--Himself a Manifestation of God--to quaff, in such tragic
> circumstances, the cup of martyrdom.
>
> (28 March 1941, written by Shoghi Effendi to the Bah's of the World,
> published in The Promised Day Is Come (Wilmette: Bah' Publishing
> Trust, 1980), pp. 99-100) [3]
>
>
>
> and also
>
> From the Utterances of 'Abdu'l-Bah
>
> When you [the Jewish people] glorify and honor the memory of Christ,
> rest assured that the Christians will take your hands in real
> fellowship. All difficulty, hesitancy and restraint will vanish.
> Consider the troubles and persecutions heaped upon you in Russia for
> your fanaticism of unbelief. And you must not think that this is
> ended.
>
> This humiliation will continue forever. The time may come when in
> Europe itself they will arise against the Jews. But your declaration
> that Christ was the Word of God will end all such trouble. My advice
> is that in order to become honorable, protected and secure among the
> nations of the world, in order that the Christians may love and
> safeguard the Israelitish people, you should be willing to announce
> your belief in Christ, the Word of God. This is a complete statement;
> there is nothing more. Is it not thoughtless, ignorant prejudice which
> restrains you from doing so? Declare that, verily, the Word of God was
> realized in Him, and all will be right.
>
> (The Promulgation of Universal Peace: Talks Delivered by 'Abdu'l-Bah
> during His Visit to the United States and Canada in 1912 rev. ed.
> (Wilmette: Bah' Publishing Trust, 1982), p. 414) [1]
>
>
> http://bahai-library.com/?file=compilation_holocaust_greater_plan
>
>
> On 1/25/06, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > This is an erroneus, highly inflammatory, inaccurate and insane comment.
> > You should apologize, Gilberto. This has been discussed so many times
> > before.
> >
> > Disgusted
> >
> > Iskandar
> >
> > On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Muslim". I would have more right to dismiss your views as the opinions
> > > of "some Bahai" who thinks that Judaism has been superceded at least 4
> > > times over, and who believes that the Jews deserved being persecuted
> > > for 2000 years for killing Jesus.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Baha'i Faith and the Bible
James McConkey Robinson, associated with the Nag Hammadi Library - impressive credentials!. Scott[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Which James Robinson? Dear Scott, I'm referring to a famous scholar whose done a lot of work on Egyptian gnostic texts which threw a great deal of light on the question of the ressurrection. warmest, susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-stBaha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public -
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Re: Baha'i Faith and the Bible
> Which James Robinson?
Dear Scott,
I'm referring to a famous scholar whose done a lot of work on Egyptian
gnostic texts which threw a great deal of light on the question of the
ressurrection.
warmest, susan
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Re: Judaism 101 was Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
I didn't just ask you to
> believe me because I'm claiming to be some kind of expert. I actually
> pointed you to the references which back up what I'm saying (You
> haven't done the same.)
Gilberto,
And I said what I said on the basis of my knowledge of actual Orthodox
Jews.
I would have more right to dismiss your views as the opinions
> of "some Bahai" who thinks that Judaism has been superceded at
> least 4
> times over, and who believes that the Jews deserved being persecuted
> for 2000 years for killing Jesus.
See, you are doing the same thing with Baha'is that you are doing with
Judaism. You take your own interpretation of a text and say that
therefore we must believe thus and such.
At this point you have three choices. 1) You can show me where *I*
said I believed Jews deserved to be persecuted for 2000 years for
killing Christ. 2) You can apologize for saying I believed this. 3)
You can remove yourself from thist list.
Susan
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Re: Judaism 101 was Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
There seems to be a reoccuring problem on this list; we continue to have conversations that degrade quickly and cause hurt feelings.Gilberto, I know you feel Susan is behaving in an insulting way (I'm not judging one way or the other, but just adding my observations), but, and I'm only giving my view as a lurker here, I think you, too, have insulted Susan on so many levels. Stating that her friend's view is just an anamoly and is in no way representative seems to be pretty dismissive, not of Susan, but of the friends of which she spoke. I'm not saying that your comment, which I truly believe was taken as insulting, warrants insulting behavior in return, but it seems that once there is a misunderstanding, the conversation very, very quickly spirals downward, and frankly, even as an observer, tastes really bad. I'm not suggesting this is only a one-, two-, or even three-sided mistake. I think we need to learn to communicate more effectively; I'm not saying that we change our message, but someone has got to stop the madness. I feel I should chip in just one thought. About 9 years ago, one of my very close Jewish friends (Reformed) and I had a conversation. She was asking me about the Baha'i Faith, and during the conversation, I had voiced my then-typical routine of explaining that Baha'u'llah is the coming of the Lord of Hosts and a fulfillment or re-fulfillment of the Messiah hopes of the Jewish people (at least, according to Baha'is). She was quite fascinated by what I was saying, but she proceeded to inform me that she knew of no Jews who actually believed that the Messiah was actually going to be a person. She said that that was an older belief, but that, from her knowledge and experience, most Jews that she knew didn't believe that it was going to be kicked-off by a human being. To this day, I don't know how wide-spread that view is, but I've since read it numerous times in numerous texts. However, I've also seen arguments that it WILL be a human Messiah. Regardless, she was a very active member of her synagogue, and it was quite an eye-opening experience for me to hear that she thought it interesting that Baha'u'llah was claiming to be the long-awaited Messiah that no one, in her experience, was actually awaiting. Another part of the discussion, interestingly enough, was the fact that she told me that she was agnostic. Quite honestly, I was so surprised by it, because I'd never heard such a seeming contradiction. Now, she wasn't claiming to be Jewish by default. She was an active member in a synagogue that she and her husband actively sought out. She told me that she didn't really think there was a God at all, but couldn't say with certainty that there wasn't. She said, "Even if there WAS a God, I highly doubt he'd have any interest in what goes on in our lives." I asked her, "Well, what, then, makes you Jewish?" She said that there was a lot more to being Jewish than belief in God. She told me that most of the people in her congregation had similar views about God. She said that they believed in the community, the traditions, the rituals, etc., because it's proven to be so effective over the millenia, and proven to be so effective in their own lives. She said it was more an acceptance and faith in a collective wisdom (which, throughout history, included a belief in God, but that, as the belief in the human Messiah has fallen along the wayside, so has the belief that there is a God who is active in any way in our lives; just as the Genesis story was a story to help us understand our higher purpose in life, without having to be historical in any way, God, too, was a fabrication to help us understand and appreciate our higher purpose; the belief in God, according to her, was no longer necessary, because it was pretty obvious, to her, that he didn't exist). I don't know how wide-spread this view is, but I've since met other self-identifying Jews who have confirmed that this view is not uncommon. I've never taken it to mean that it's widespread, and maybe I've just talked to individuals representing a very small percent of the Jewish population. It didn't come as a surprise when Susan was talking about the Orthodox Jew(s) who were atheist or agnostic, even though I've never met any myself. Truth is, I don't dialogue enough about these issues with the Jews that I DO know (and I know quite a few; I'm a teacher, and in the community in which I teach [and live], the population is nearly split in half between Jews and Christians) to know what their beliefs are on the matter. My point in this story is that I was sensing, pretty strongly, that Susan was trying to make a point that she knows, personally, out-of-the-closet atheist/agnostic Orthodox Jews, and that they still identify themselves as Jews, not only because they were born with a Jewish mother, but because this is how they are choosing to live their lives. To me, it sounded as if you were dismissing those Orthodox Jews' belie
Re: Baha'i Faith and the Bible
Dear Susan,
I would recommend you get Daniel Grolin's book on Jesus from George
Ronald. I think you might be barking up the wrong tree if you try and
reconcile everything the Writings say about Christian doctrine with
the Gospel accounts. As you noted, some of the material in the NT
supports a physical resurrection and some of it doesn't. I would point
out, however, that the Pauline material is the oldest. I also
recommend that you read James Robinson's scholarship which documents
how the ressurrection came to conceived of as physical. It grew out of
opposition to the gnostics which is the context in which Luke's gospel
is written.
I have in fact seen Daniel's book. Maybe I didn't read carefully enough,
but I'm not sure he has proven his point. To you and me it looks like some
of the material in the NT supports a physical resurrection, but this looks
to me in conflict with the Baha'i position. Shoghi Effendi says:
We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the
crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His ascension when
His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was
eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New
Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after
resurrection is the same thing.
(Shoghi Effendi, High Endeavours - Messages to Alaska, p. 69)
There is another letter from Shoghi Effendi in regards to Luke 24:39 and
passages in John 20, which again says the same thing: the Gospel verses
regarding the resurrection were symbolical. Since Shoghi Effendi is
supposed to be the infallible interpreter of the teachings and he thought
these passages weren't meant to be taken literally, how can it be acceptable
for a Baha'i to believe the verses were meant to be taken literally? I know
Daniel thinks the Gospel accounts were meant to be understood literally, but
I don't see how one can get around Shoghi Effendi's 'Baha'i' position.
I also don't know how Daniel can get around the virgin birth, given that
Shoghi Effendi obviously believed it happened:
What science calls a virgin birth we do not associate with that of Jesus
Christ, which we believe to have been a miracle and a sign of His
Prophethood. In this matter we are in entire agreement with the most
orthodox church views.
(Shoghi Effendi, High Endeavours - Messages to Alaska, p. 69)
The virgin birth is certainly a matter I have problems with historically.
We have two grossly conflicting narratives of what happened. The narrative
of Matthew is confirmed to be all historical in the Writings. This is odd,
considering one would think 'Abdu'l-Baha's elsewhere used argument of
historical silence could be used to dismiss some of Matthew's narrative as
having actually happened. Josephus chronicled a whole lot of crimes of
Herod the Great, even some quite minor, yet he never told us of the
slaughter of the innocents. That it would happen without civil war seems
unlikely. Furthermore, we have no record of the star that, despite being
billions of miles away, somehow managed to alert some wise men to go to the
precise house where Jesus was. The story in Matthew certainly implies that
Jesus would have been a celebrity from the time He was born. Herod knew all
about the wise men visiting Jesus, so surely others would have gone to see
Jesus. He would have been a celebrity at the start of His Prophetic career.
He wasn't.
Regards,
David
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Re: 'Abdu'l-Baha and historical/critical interpretation
Dear Gilberto,
I don't follow. I'm sure there are fundamentalist Christians who will
interpret it all literally and say that they are true. And there are
probably some anti-Christians who want to disprove the Bible and so
will regard the stories as literal but false. But why couldn't a
historian say, "these stories were probably meant to be taken
symbolically."?
The point is, they would use the text itself as evidence of whether or not
it was meant to be understood symbolically. They wouldn't conclude that the
text was meant to be understood symbolically just because the literal
interpretation obviously didn't happen.
But even if you believe that miracles happen, or even that alot of
miracles happen, it is difficult to imagine anyone having a ho-hum
kind of attitude towards the events described in the Bible associated
with the crucifixion, especially a *general* resurrection of the dead.
And so the fact that the Bible is the only source for those accounts,
suggests that they didn't happen literally. And since the authors
would have known that, they would have intended them figuratively.
Hmm. I don't really think authors would have thought that way.
Regards,
David
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Nice article about a pioneer!
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2006/01/26/045.html
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
But its okay for you to ask a Baha`i what he might think about Islam? And then base an argument on the reply? I'm asking if there is a similarity between what you suggest about Islamic belief in the direction of the Qiblih and belief in the authority of the House of Justice for Baha`i's. If it were offered to me as a Baha`i, I would certainly answer the question. Assuming that you are a non-Baha`i, and I have STILL asked and asked this particular question because I think an answer would further the discussion and you still will not do so, is that not obfuscation? I would answer "yes", it is. Regards, ScottGilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Let me ame!
nd that
slightly: I would accept a "yes, but . . . " or a "no, but> . . . ".> I agree with you that altering the direction of prayer would be a serious> breech of Islam, and would certainly understand as an outsider why those> individuals would not be muslims anymore.I would have a harder time saying that if a person believes in theBab, Bahaullah, Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the writings, and theycall themselves Bahai, that such a person is obviously not Bahaibecause the authorities in Haifa say so. As an outsider, that would bea presumtuous call for me to make.The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader!
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto,
> Here is my original question which you have been side-stepping. It can be
> answered yes or no quite easily.
Carefully crafted questions asked this way in the middle of an
argument tend to be loaded with assumptions.
> "So when an individual Baha`i says the House of Justice is WRONG, mistaken
> and follish in a ruling, he does not remove himself from the community of
> believers?"
For example "the community of believers" leaves ambiguous the question
of WHICH community. If someone believes in Bahaullah and calls
themselves Bahai, my own opinion is that I would call them "Bahai"
regardless of how they felt about the Universal House of Justice.
If I'm talking to someone who insists that an essential part of being
"Bahai" is accepting the authority of the UHJ then I wouldn't argue
over the definition, but for the purposes of communication I would try
to speak in terms that they understood and go ahead an use "Bahai" in
the narrow sense but say something like "Believer in Bahaullah" if I
want to imply something more general.
-Gilberto
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Let me amend that slightly: I would accept a "yes, but . . . " or a "no, but
> . . . ".
> I agree with you that altering the direction of prayer would be a serious
> breech of Islam, and would certainly understand as an outsider why those
> individuals would not be muslims anymore.
I would have a harder time saying that if a person believes in the
Bab, Bahaullah, Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the writings, and they
call themselves Bahai, that such a person is obviously not Bahai
because the authorities in Haifa say so. As an outsider, that would be
a presumtuous call for me to make.
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
Gilberto, Here is my original question which you have been side-stepping. It can be answered yes or no quite easily. I would even accept a "yes, but . . .", "No, but . . . " answer. "So when an individual Baha`i says the House of Justice is WRONG, mistaken and follish in a ruling, he does not remove himself from the community of believers?" Answer "No, he does not remove himself from the community of believers" or "Yes, he does remove himself from the community of believers" I would consider to be another side-step a reply that sounds like "He does not remove himself from the community of believers who agree with him in the first place." Regards, ScottGilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> More side-stepping . . . . why not a yes, or a no?You didn't ask a yes or no question.-Gilberto> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> I don't know what the Orthodox Bahai take on it is but I would imagine> that since this statement was written before the mainstream Universal> House of Justice was formed, an Orthodox Bahai might argue that there> is some ambiguity in terms of which institution Abdul-Baha is refering> to.>> Also, I'm not sure about currently, but part of the argument is that> Remey was appointed President of the First International Bahai Council> (Which they argue is essentially makes him Guardian of the Universal> House of Justice) And then Joel Bray Marangella was appointed head of> the Second International Bahai Council. So I guess the Orthodox Bahai!
s>
might say that your quote from Abdul-Baha refers to their institutions> and not yours.>> But that's just speculation.>> -Gilberto>> On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors wrote:> >> > Given this statement by Abdu'l Baha - whom the "Orthodox" Baha`i's> > unfailingly accept:> >> > ""He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed> with> > > a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and> > > blending of church and state. This institution 248 is under the> protecting> > > ! power of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. A universal or international House of> > Justice> > > shall also be organized. Its rulings shall be in accordance with the> > > commands and teachings of Bahá'u'lláh! , and that which the universal> > House> > > of Justice ordains shall be!
obeyed
by all mankind. This international> > House> > > of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice> of> > the whole world, and all the world shall come under its> administration.""> > > (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)> >> > How can that be considered any! LESS declarative than the verse from the> > Qur'an you offered to show that bowing toward Mecca was the only> acceptable> > Islamic practice?> >> >> > Gilberto Simpson wrote:> >> >> >> > I think that even among non-Muslims, it is pretty uncontraversial that> > "Muslims pray facing Mecca". However, speaking as a non-Bahai, it is> > NOT really obvious that Orthodox Bahais or groups like them should be> > considered non-Bahais.> >> > -Gilberto> >!
;>
> I would offer that you are dead wrong in this statement.> >> > Regards,> > Scott> >> >> >> > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto> > ("e-mail") is sent by! the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and> is> > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or> entity> > named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy> > and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message> is> > not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,> dissemination,> > distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have> > received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email> reply> > and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any> &!
gt;
attachments thereto. Thank you.> >> >> >> >> > As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot> > shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We> must> > shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility.> > Arnold J. Toynbee> The information containe! d in this e-mail and any attachments thereto> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have> received this!
e-mail
in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any> attachments thereto. Thank you.>>> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is se
Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
Let me amend that slightly: I would accept a "yes, but . . . " or a "no, but . . . ". I agree with you that altering the direction of prayer would be a serious breech of Islam, and would certainly understand as an outsider why those individuals would not be muslims anymore. ScottScott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:More side-stepping . . . . why not a yes, or a no?Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't know what the Orthodox Bahai take on it is but I would imaginethat since this statement was written before the mainstream UniversalHouse of Justice was formed, an Orthodox Bahai might argue that there!
is
some ambiguity in terms of which institution Abdul-Baha is referingto.Also, I'm not sure about currently, but part of the argument is thatRemey was appointed President of the First International Bahai Council(Which they argue is essentially makes him Guardian of the UniversalHouse of Justice) And then Joel Bray Marangella was appointed head ofthe Second International Bahai Council. So I guess the Orthodox Bahaismight say that your quote from Abdul-Baha refers to their institutionsand not yours.But that's just speculation.-GilbertoOn 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>> Given this statement by Abdu'l Baha - whom the "Orthodox" Baha`i's> unfailingly accept:>> ""He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed with> > a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and> > blending of church and state. This
institution 248 is under the protecting> > ! power of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. A universal or international House of> Justice> > shall also be organized. Its rulings shall be in accordance with the> > commands and teachings of Bahá'u'lláh! , and that which the universal> House> > of Justice ordains shall be obeyed by all mankind. This international> House> > of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice of> > the whole world, and all the world shall come under its administration.""> > (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)>> How can that be considered any! LESS declarative than the verse from the> Qur'an you offered to show that bowing toward Mecca was the only acceptable> Islamic practice?>>> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I think that !
even
among non-Muslims, it is pretty uncontraversial that> "Muslims pray facing Mecca". However, speaking as a non-Bahai, it is> NOT really obvious that Orthodox Bahais or groups like them should be> considered non-Bahais.>> -Gilberto>> I would offer that you are dead wrong in this statement.>> Regards,> Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto> ("e-mail") is sent by! the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have>!
received
this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any> attachments thereto. Thank you.> As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot> shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must> shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility.> Arnold J. Toynbee> The information containe! d in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibit!
ed. If
you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__ You are> subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send> subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc.edu Subscribe:> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st> Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail -> mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web -> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News -> news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public -> http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public -> http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New> Public -
http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu--"There are no poe
Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> More side-stepping . . . . why not a yes, or a no?
You didn't ask a yes or no question.
-Gilberto
> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know what the Orthodox Bahai take on it is but I would imagine
> that since this statement was written before the mainstream Universal
> House of Justice was formed, an Orthodox Bahai might argue that there
> is some ambiguity in terms of which institution Abdul-Baha is refering
> to.
>
> Also, I'm not sure about currently, but part of the argument is that
> Remey was appointed President of the First International Bahai Council
> (Which they argue is essentially makes him Guardian of the Universal
> House of Justice) And then Joel Bray Marangella was appointed head of
> the Second International Bahai Council. So I guess the Orthodox Bahais
> might say that your quote from Abdul-Baha refers to their institutions
> and not yours.
>
> But that's just speculation.
>
> -Gilberto
>
> On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors wrote:
> >
> > Given this statement by Abdu'l Baha - whom the "Orthodox" Baha`i's
> > unfailingly accept:
> >
> > ""He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed
> with
> > > a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and
> > > blending of church and state. This institution 248 is under the
> protecting
> > > ! power of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. A universal or international House of
> > Justice
> > > shall also be organized. Its rulings shall be in accordance with the
> > > commands and teachings of Bahá'u'lláh! , and that which the universal
> > House
> > > of Justice ordains shall be obeyed by all mankind. This international
> > House
> > > of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice
> of> > the whole world, and all the world shall come under its
> administration.""
> > > (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)
> >
> > How can that be considered any! LESS declarative than the verse from the
> > Qur'an you offered to show that bowing toward Mecca was the only
> acceptable
> > Islamic practice?
> >
> >
> > Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I think that even among non-Muslims, it is pretty uncontraversial that
> > "Muslims pray facing Mecca". However, speaking as a non-Bahai, it is
> > NOT really obvious that Orthodox Bahais or groups like them should be
> > considered non-Bahais.
> >
> > -Gilberto
> >
> > I would offer that you are dead wrong in this statement.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Scott
> >
> >
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> > ("e-mail") is sent by! the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and
> is
> > intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or
> entity
> > named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> > and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
> is
> > not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
> dissemination,
> > distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> > received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email
> reply
> > and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> > attachments thereto. Thank you.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot
> > shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We
> must
> > shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility.
> > Arnold J. Toynbee
> >
>
>
> The information containe! d in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
More side-stepping . . . . why not a yes, or a no?Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't know what the Orthodox Bahai take on it is but I would imaginethat since this statement was written before the mainstream UniversalHouse of Justice was formed, an Orthodox Bahai might argue that thereis some ambiguity in terms of which institution Abdul-Baha is referingto.Also, I'm not sure about currently, but part of the argument is thatRemey was appointed President of the First International Bahai Council(Which they argue is essentially makes him Guardian of the UniversalHouse of Justice) And then Joel Bray Marangella was appointed head ofthe Second International Bahai Council. So I guess the Orthodox Bahaismight say that your quote from Abdul-Baha refers to their
institutionsand not yours.But that's just speculation.-GilbertoOn 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>> Given this statement by Abdu'l Baha - whom the "Orthodox" Baha`i's> unfailingly accept:>> ""He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed with> > a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and> > blending of church and state. This institution 248 is under the protecting> > ! power of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. A universal or international House of> Justice> > shall also be organized. Its rulings shall be in accordance with the> > commands and teachings of Bahá'u'lláh! , and that which the universal> House> > of Justice ordains shall be obeyed by all mankind. This international> House> > of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice of>
> the whole world, and all the world shall come under its administration.""> > (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)>> How can that be considered any! LESS declarative than the verse from the> Qur'an you offered to show that bowing toward Mecca was the only acceptable> Islamic practice?>>> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I think that even among non-Muslims, it is pretty uncontraversial that> "Muslims pray facing Mecca". However, speaking as a non-Bahai, it is> NOT really obvious that Orthodox Bahais or groups like them should be> considered non-Bahais.>> -Gilberto>> I would offer that you are dead wrong in this statement.>> Regards,> Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto> ("e-mail") is sent by!
the
Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any> attachments thereto. Thank you.> As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot> shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must> shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility.> Arnold J. Toynbee> The information containe!
d in this
e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__ You are> subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send> subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc.edu
Subscribe:> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st> Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail -> mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web -> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News -> news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public -> http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public -> http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New> Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu--"There are no poets"__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-stBaha'i Stud
Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
I don't know what the Orthodox Bahai take on it is but I would imagine
that since this statement was written before the mainstream Universal
House of Justice was formed, an Orthodox Bahai might argue that there
is some ambiguity in terms of which institution Abdul-Baha is refering
to.
Also, I'm not sure about currently, but part of the argument is that
Remey was appointed President of the First International Bahai Council
(Which they argue is essentially makes him Guardian of the Universal
House of Justice) And then Joel Bray Marangella was appointed head of
the Second International Bahai Council. So I guess the Orthodox Bahais
might say that your quote from Abdul-Baha refers to their institutions
and not yours.
But that's just speculation.
-Gilberto
On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Given this statement by Abdu'l Baha - whom the "Orthodox" Baha`i's
> unfailingly accept:
>
> ""He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed with
> > a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and
> > blending of church and state. This institution 248 is under the protecting
> > ! power of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. A universal or international House of
> Justice
> > shall also be organized. Its rulings shall be in accordance with the
> > commands and teachings of Bahá'u'lláh! , and that which the universal
> House
> > of Justice ordains shall be obeyed by all mankind. This international
> House
> > of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice of
> > the whole world, and all the world shall come under its administration.""
> > (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)
>
> How can that be considered any! LESS declarative than the verse from the
> Qur'an you offered to show that bowing toward Mecca was the only acceptable
> Islamic practice?
>
>
> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> I think that even among non-Muslims, it is pretty uncontraversial that
> "Muslims pray facing Mecca". However, speaking as a non-Bahai, it is
> NOT really obvious that Orthodox Bahais or groups like them should be
> considered non-Bahais.
>
> -Gilberto
>
> I would offer that you are dead wrong in this statement.
>
> Regards,
> Scott
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
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> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
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> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot
> shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must
> shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility.
> Arnold J. Toynbee
>
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
Given this statement by Abdu'l Baha - whom the "Orthodox" Baha`i's unfailingly accept: ""He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed with> a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and> blending of church and state. This institution 248 is under the protecting> ! power of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. A universal or international House of Justice> shall also be organized. Its rulings shall be in accordance with the> commands and teachings of Bahá'u'lláh! , and that which the universal House> of Justice ordains shall be obeyed by all mankind. This international House> of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice of> the whole world, and all the world shall come under its administration.""> (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247) How can that be considered any!
LESS
declarative than the verse from the Qur'an you offered to show that bowing toward Mecca was the only acceptable Islamic practice?Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I think that even among non-Muslims, it is pretty uncontraversial that"Muslims pray facing Mecca". However, speaking as a non-Bahai, it isNOT really obvious that Orthodox Bahais or groups like them should beconsidered non-Bahais.-Gilberto I would offer that you are dead wrong in this statement. Regards, Scott
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gilberto:
> Maybe I'm assuming too much but I'm assuming you are trying to make an
> analogy between the qiblah issue for Muslims and obedience to the
> House of Justice for Bahais. And what I'm saying above is that the
> Qiblah issue is an issue where there is literally no serious debate or
> contraversy in Islam. Hanafis, Malikis, Hanbalis, Shafis, Shias,
> Wahabis, S! alafis and other various movements all accept that regular
> salat is supposed to be done facing Mecca. If an individual did appear
> saying they were Muslim but wanted to pray in the direction of
> Graceland, I would feel like I could safely dismiss them because the
> idea is so ridiculous I wouldn't expect it to go anywhere.
>
> On the Bahai side, the Remeyites don't accept the authority of the UHJ
> at all, and at least the French NSA voted to accept his claim in the
> beginning. And in addition to the Remeyites, there are other
> liberal/academic/dissident believers in Bahaullah who are to varying
> degrees critical of the UHJ or at least they don't seem to have an
> uncritical belief in its infallibility.
> -Gilberto
Scott:
> And by doing so - objecting to the House of Justice (In Remey's case and the
> French NSA by insisting that Remey should have been named Guardian) - did
> they make themselves outsiders to the faith of Baha`u'llah? They! WERE cast
> out of membership, you know. You would cast out of membership a hypothetical
> community that chose to bow toward Jerusalem - how does this not apply
> directly to the example of Baha`i dissension you have offered?
I think that even among non-Muslims, it is pretty uncontraversial that
"Muslims pray facing Mecca". However, speaking as a non-Bahai, it is
NOT really obvious that Orthodox Bahais or groups like them should be
considered non-Bahais.
-Gilberto
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Re: Baha'i Faith and the Bible
Which James Robinson? There are many, many - including the provisional governor of the state of Texas in the 1800's, a filk artist, a jazz guitarist, a former head of American Express, etc., etc. I cannot seem to find a scholar on the life of Jesus and would love to do so. Regards, Scott[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear David, I would recommend you get Daniel Grolin's book on Jesus from George Ronald. I think you might be barking up the wrong tree if you try and reconcile everything the Writings say about Christian doctrine with the Gospel accounts. As you noted, some of the material in the NT supports a physical resurrection and some of it doesn't. I would point out, however, that the Pauline material is the oldest. I also recommend that you read James Robinson's scholar!
ship
which documents how the ressurrection came to conceived of as physical. It grew out of opposition to the gnostics which is the context in which Luke's gospel is written. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Gilberto, please remember this is a list of equals and you can inject> yourself into any discussion and never hear me complain.Gilberto:I'm not saying you have no right to speak. I'm not saying you can'tparticipate. I specifically said "I'm not sure why you are insertingyourself in the conversation THIS WAY"It was just weird because it seemed like you were taking my words outof context just to "get me" in a totally seperate discussion.> I also notice you did not answer the question, merely side-stepped it with a> complaint about me butting into a conversation between you and Susan.No. I did answer but I didn't spell it out.> Gilb!
erto
Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> I'm not sure why you are inserting yourself in the conversation this> way. Susan asked me questions in response to one point (whether or not> Islam should be essentially described as orthopraxic) and you seem to> be taking my answer as if it were part of a totally different> conversation (presumably the Sen removal).> In a! ny case, I am certain there are more people calling themselves> Bahais who think that the Universal House of Justice can make mistakes> than there are Muslims who pray facing Graceland.Maybe I'm assuming too much but I'm assuming you are trying to make ananalogy between the qiblah issue for Muslims and obedience to theHouse of Justice for Bahais. And what I'm saying above is that theQiblah issue is an issue where there is literally no serious debate orcontraversy in Islam. Hanafis, Malikis, Hanbalis, Shafis, Shias,Wahabis, S!
alafis
and other various movements all accept that regularsalat is supposed to be done facing Mecca. If an individual did appearsaying they were Muslim but wanted to pray in the direction ofGraceland, I would feel like I could safely dismiss them because theidea is so ridiculous I wouldn't expect it to go anywhere.On the Bahai side, the Remeyites don't accept the authority of the UHJat all, and at least the French NSA voted to accept his claim in thebeginning. And in addition to the Remeyites, there are otherliberal/academic/dissident believers in Bahaullah who are to varyingdegrees critical of the UHJ or at least they don't seem to have anuncritical belief in its infallibility.-Gilberto And by doing so - objecting to the House of Justice (In Remey's case and the French NSA by insisting that Remey should have been named Guardian) - did they make themselves outsiders to the faith of Baha`u'llah? They!
WERE
cast out of membership, you know. You would cast out of membership a hypothetical community that chose to bow toward Jerusalem - how does this not apply directly to the example of Baha`i dissension you have offered? Regards, Scott
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: Judaism 101 was Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
Islam, at once the progenitor and persecutor of the Faith of
Bahá'u'lláh, is, if we read aright the signs of the times, only
beginning to sustain the impact of this invincible and triumphant
Faith. We need only recall the nineteen hundred years of abject misery
and dispersion which they, who only for the short space of three years
persecuted the Son of God, have had to endure, and are still enduring.
We may well ask ourselves, with mingled feelings of dread and awe, how
severe must be the tribulations of those who, during no less than
fifty years, have, "at every moment tormented with a fresh torment"
Him Who is the Father, and who have, in addition, made His
Herald--Himself a Manifestation of God--to quaff, in such tragic
circumstances, the cup of martyrdom.
(28 March 1941, written by Shoghi Effendi to the Bahá'ís of the World,
published in The Promised Day Is Come (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing
Trust, 1980), pp. 99-100) [3]
and also
>From the Utterances of 'Abdu'l-Bahá
When you [the Jewish people] glorify and honor the memory of Christ,
rest assured that the Christians will take your hands in real
fellowship. All difficulty, hesitancy and restraint will vanish.
Consider the troubles and persecutions heaped upon you in Russia for
your fanaticism of unbelief. And you must not think that this is
ended.
This humiliation will continue forever. The time may come when in
Europe itself they will arise against the Jews. But your declaration
that Christ was the Word of God will end all such trouble. My advice
is that in order to become honorable, protected and secure among the
nations of the world, in order that the Christians may love and
safeguard the Israelitish people, you should be willing to announce
your belief in Christ, the Word of God. This is a complete statement;
there is nothing more. Is it not thoughtless, ignorant prejudice which
restrains you from doing so? Declare that, verily, the Word of God was
realized in Him, and all will be right.
(The Promulgation of Universal Peace: Talks Delivered by 'Abdu'l-Bahá
during His Visit to the United States and Canada in 1912 rev. ed.
(Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1982), p. 414) [1]
http://bahai-library.com/?file=compilation_holocaust_greater_plan
On 1/25/06, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is an erroneus, highly inflammatory, inaccurate and insane comment.
> You should apologize, Gilberto. This has been discussed so many times
> before.
>
> Disgusted
>
> Iskandar
>
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Muslim". I would have more right to dismiss your views as the opinions
> > of "some Bahai" who thinks that Judaism has been superceded at least 4
> > times over, and who believes that the Jews deserved being persecuted
> > for 2000 years for killing Jesus.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
> __
>
>
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gilberto, please remember this is a list of equals and you can inject
> yourself into any discussion and never hear me complain.
Gilberto:
I'm not saying you have no right to speak. I'm not saying you can't
participate. I specifically said "I'm not sure why you are inserting
yourself in the conversation THIS WAY"
It was just weird because it seemed like you were taking my words out
of context just to "get me" in a totally seperate discussion.
> I also notice you did not answer the question, merely side-stepped it with a
> complaint about me butting into a conversation between you and Susan.
No. I did answer but I didn't spell it out.
> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not sure why you are inserting yourself in the conversation this
> way. Susan asked me questions in response to one point (whether or not
> Islam should be essentially described as orthopraxic) and you seem to
> be taking my answer as if it were part of a totally different
> conversation (presumably the Sen removal).
> In a! ny case, I am certain there are more people calling themselves
> Bahais who think that the Universal House of Justice can make mistakes
> than there are Muslims who pray facing Graceland.
Maybe I'm assuming too much but I'm assuming you are trying to make an
analogy between the qiblah issue for Muslims and obedience to the
House of Justice for Bahais. And what I'm saying above is that the
Qiblah issue is an issue where there is literally no serious debate or
contraversy in Islam. Hanafis, Malikis, Hanbalis, Shafis, Shias,
Wahabis, Salafis and other various movements all accept that regular
salat is supposed to be done facing Mecca. If an individual did appear
saying they were Muslim but wanted to pray in the direction of
Graceland, I would feel like I could safely dismiss them because the
idea is so ridiculous I wouldn't expect it to go anywhere.
On the Bahai side, the Remeyites don't accept the authority of the UHJ
at all, and at least the French NSA voted to accept his claim in the
beginning. And in addition to the Remeyites, there are other
liberal/academic/dissident believers in Bahaullah who are to varying
degrees critical of the UHJ or at least they don't seem to have an
uncritical belief in its infallibility.
-Gilberto
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
Gilberto, please remember this is a list of equals and you can inject yourself into any discussion and never hear me complain. I also notice you did not answer the question, merely side-stepped it with a complaint about me butting into a conversation between you and Susan. If you wish to have a private communication with anyone on the list, please take it to e-mail. Regards, ScottGilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm not sure why you are inserting yourself in the conversation thisway. Susan asked me questions in response to one point (whether or notIslam should be essentially described as orthopraxic) and you seem tobe taking my answer as if it were part of a totally differentconversation (presumably the Sen removal).In a!
ny case,
I am certain there are more people calling themselvesBahais who think that the Universal House of Justice can make mistakesthan there are Muslims who pray facing Graceland.-GilbertoOn 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>> If a community is intending to face Mecca and they pray southeast> instead of northeast by mistake, I would say that they are Muslim. But> if an individual or community doesn't even have that intention, and> departs from univeral Muslim practice then they are taking themselves> out of the community.>>> -Gilberto>> "He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed with> a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and> blending of church and state. This institution 248 is under the protecting> !
power of
Bahá'u'lláh Himself. A universal or international House of Justice> shall also be organized. Its rulings shall be in accordance with the> commands and teachings of Bahá'u'lláh! , and that which the universal House> of Justice ordains shall be obeyed by all mankind. This international House> of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice of> the whole world, and all the world shall come under its administration."> (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)>> So when an individual Baha`i says the House of Justice is WRONG, mistaken> and follish in a ruling, he does not remove himself from the community of> believers?>> Regards,> Scott> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is> intended to!
be
confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any> attachments thereto. Thank you.> As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot> shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must> shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility.> Arnold J. Toynbee> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the J!
ohnson
County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__ You are> subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send> subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe:>
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
I'm not sure why you are inserting yourself in the conversation this
way. Susan asked me questions in response to one point (whether or not
Islam should be essentially described as orthopraxic) and you seem to
be taking my answer as if it were part of a totally different
conversation (presumably the Sen removal).
In any case, I am certain there are more people calling themselves
Bahais who think that the Universal House of Justice can make mistakes
than there are Muslims who pray facing Graceland.
-Gilberto
On 1/25/06, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> If a community is intending to face Mecca and they pray southeast
> instead of northeast by mistake, I would say that they are Muslim. But
> if an individual or community doesn't even have that intention, and
> departs from univeral Muslim practice then they are taking themselves
> out of the community.
>
>
> -Gilberto
>
> "He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed with
> a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and
> blending of church and state. This institution 248 is under the protecting
> power of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. A universal or international House of Justice
> shall also be organized. Its rulings shall be in accordance with the
> commands and teachings of Bahá'u'lláh! , and that which the universal House
> of Justice ordains shall be obeyed by all mankind. This international House
> of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice of
> the whole world, and all the world shall come under its administration."
> (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)
>
> So when an individual Baha`i says the House of Justice is WRONG, mistaken
> and follish in a ruling, he does not remove himself from the community of
> believers?
>
> Regards,
> Scott
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
> intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity
> named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy
> and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply
> and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any
> attachments thereto. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot
> shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must
> shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility.
> Arnold J. Toynbee
>
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Re: 'Abdu'l-Baha and historical/critical interpretation
> His argument
> that it did not literally happen is based on historical science. I
would
> agree that this is a compelling argument. In a historical/critical
sense,
> however, He did not prove that the text should be understood
figuratively.
What's the difference between "historical science" and a
"historical/critical sense"?
I'll respond further later, but just say that I meant to say "historical
silence."
Regards,
David
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No, you don't understand, Gilberto. ...
Please, carefully read what I'm saying before responding. I don't
believe you are paying sufficient attention because you seem to just
be missing the point.
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> > On 1/24/06, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > You keep talking about minor details. I'm talking about foundational
> > > issues. Shi`ah believes that Abu-Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman wrongfully
> > > usurped `Ali's legitimate position as the Prophet's vicar and authroized
> > > interpreter of the Word of God. No Sunni would ever agree to that.
Gilberto:
> > And you don't understand me. I'm not saying Sunnis will turn into
> > Shias or that Shias will turn into Sunnis. What I'm saying is that
> > both can accept one another as Muslims and disagree without being
> > disagreeable.
Iskandar, the above is the point which I believe you are missing. Your
response only seems to be addressing the point that Sunnis and Shias
disagree about certain issues. I understand that. I agree to that.
Sunnis believe somethings which Shias don't believe. And vice-versa.
The point is that the disagreement doesn't have to rise to the level
of disbelief.
That's the point that you are completely ignoring.
ISkandar:
> > > Here is my neck of woods there is a fine Pakistani restaurant, owned by a
> > > Shi`ah. The Imam of the Sunni mosque here declared him a kAfir, because he
> > > serves alcoholic bevergaes in his restaurant. Owners of other (but Sunni)
> > > restaurant businesses who also serve alcoholic beverages have not been
> > > publicly condemned. Alcohol is a minor issue here, a ruse, a subterfuge.
Gilberto:
> > I would actually disagree. In alot of inner-city neighborhoods there
> > is a problem where immigrant "Muslims" come in and run liquor stores
> > in African-American communities. In Oakland recently there was an
> > issue where Black Muslims actually vandalized liquor stores owned by
> > immigrant Muslims. Similar tensions exist in the Detroit/Dearborn
> > area. Immigrant Muslims who run liquor stores are actually really bad
> > and hypocritical representatives for Islam and I have no interest in
> > defending their behavior in any way except to say that even if they
> > are Shia, they are still Muslim... bad Muslims... but Muslims.
Iskandar:
> You disagree with what? You disagree with the Sunni Imam here in my neck
> of woods who issued a takfir order against a Shi`ah restaurant owner?
Gilberto:
I have no reason to follow some nameless random Sunni Imam in your
neck of the woods. Islam (even Sunni Islam) is not defined by whatever
is said by some random nameless Sunni Imam in your neck of the woods
teaches. I have a *very* healthy sense of skepticism when it comes to
following what "some guy" tells me does or does not teach. Think about
how Bahais talk about Kitab-i-Hearsay. And that comes from Bahais
telling other Bahais about the Bahai faith. Now think about how much
weight I'm going to give to a Bahai telling me what Islam teaches,
especially when I've read more authoritative statements from scholars
I actually respect, who say otherwise.
Iskandar:
> > > The foundational issue is the Shi`ah-Sunni conflict on who was the
> > > legitimate interpreter of the Quran after the Prophet Muhammad and who was
> > > His legitimate successor.
Gilberto:
> > From a Sunni perspective, what you are saying seems silly because
> > Sunnis aren't anti-Ali. In your mind this is really contentious but
> > from mine it isn't.
Iskanbdar:
> From a Shi`ah standpoint, it's quite foundational and not silly at all.
> For a Sunni, `Ali was a successor (to `UthmAn) just equal to the other
> three Caliphs and he is not regarded by Sunni Muslims as m`asum or
> infallible.
Gilberto:
I'm pretty sure I've discussed this before on this list or if not
soc.religion.bahai.
And this is another point which, in my opinion you are totally
ignoring and not addressing in any way, shape or form.
Most Sunni Sufi tariqts trace their chains through Ali. (Do you know
what that means?). And all of the major old ones include at least a
few of the Shia Imams in their chains. And in particular, there are
Sunni Sufis who actually have a concept of the Perfect Man (Insan
Al-Kamil) and there are many Sunnis who would apply this title to Ali.
(Do you understand what I"m saying?)
That's not necesarily the same as believing in the Imamate, but I
would argue that the differences are technical and stupid to argue
about.
-Gilberto
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:If a community is intending to face Mecca and they pray southeastinstead of northeast by mistake, I would say that they are Muslim. Butif an individual or community doesn't even have that intention, anddeparts from univeral Muslim practice then they are taking themselvesout of the community.-Gilberto "He has ordained and established the House of Justice which is endowed with a political as well as a religious function, the consummate union and blending of church and state. This institution 248 is under the protecting power of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. A universal or international House of Justice shall also be organized. Its rulings shall be in accordance with the commands and teachings of Bahá'u'lláh!
, and
that which the universal House of Justice ordains shall be obeyed by all mankind. This international House of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice of the whole world, and all the world shall come under its administration." (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247) So when an individual Baha`i says the House of Justice is WRONG, mistaken and follish in a ruling, he does not remove himself from the community of believers? Regards, Scott
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: Judaism 101 was Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
This is an erroneus, highly inflammatory, inaccurate and insane comment.
You should apologize, Gilberto. This has been discussed so many times
before.
Disgusted
Iskandar
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
>
>
> Muslim". I would have more right to dismiss your views as the opinions
> of "some Bahai" who thinks that Judaism has been superceded at least 4
> times over, and who believes that the Jews deserved being persecuted
> for 2000 years for killing Jesus.
>
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
Actually, it's you, Gilberto, who is being selective.
Just see what the consensus of opinion was on the Wikipaedia links that
Firouz provided.
Regards,
Iskandar
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> I think if you quote selectively you can probably find example of
> Shias and Sunnis saying negative stupid things about one another. That
> doesn't make them good representatives of other side. Just as you can
> find some places where Protestants accuse the Pope of being the
> anti-Christ. That doesn't mean they speak for all Protestants.
>
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
No, you don't understand, Gilberto. ...
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> On 1/24/06, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You keep talking about minor details. I'm talking about foundational
> > issues. Shi`ah believes that Abu-Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman wrongfully
> > usurped `Ali's legitimate position as the Prophet's vicar and authroized
> > interpreter of the Word of God. No Sunni would ever agree to that.
>
> And you don't understand me. I'm not saying Sunnis will turn into
> Shias or that Shias will turn into Sunnis. What I'm saying is that
> both can accept one another as Muslims and disagree without being
> disagreeable.
>
A Shi`ah person does not and cannot, by definition, accept the first three
Caliphs as legitimate successors to the Prophet. And a Sunni will not
accept that `Ali -- and only `Ali -- was the true and legitimate successor
to the Prophet and that `Ali, and `Ali alone, had the Divine right to give
authoritative interpretation of the Word of God.
> > Here is my neck of woods there is a fine Pakistani restaurant, owned by a
> > Shi`ah. The Imam of the Sunni mosque here declared him a kAfir, because he
> > serves alcoholic bevergaes in his restaurant. Owners of other (but Sunni)
> > restaurant businesses who also serve alcoholic beverages have not been
> > publicly condemned. Alcohol is a minor issue here, a ruse, a subterfuge.
>
> I would actually disagree. In alot of inner-city neighborhoods there
> is a problem where immigrant "Muslims" come in and run liquor stores
> in African-American communities. In Oakland recently there was an
> issue where Black Muslims actually vandalized liquor stores owned by
> immigrant Muslims. Similar tensions exist in the Detroit/Dearborn
> area. Immigrant Muslims who run liquor stores are actually really bad
> and hypocritical representatives for Islam and I have no interest in
> defending their behavior in any way except to say that even if they
> are Shia, they are still Muslim... bad Muslims... but Muslims.
>
You disagree with what? You disagree with the Sunni Imam here in my neck
of woods who issued a takfir order against a Shi`ah restaurant owner? This
Imam did not issue a takfir order against Sunni Muslims who did the same.
The issue of alcohol was just a pretext. That's all. Of course serving
alcohol is against Islam. But why did this Sunni Imam decided to
selectively issue a takfir against a Shi`ah resturant owner, and not
against Sunni ones?
> > The foundational issue is the Shi`ah-Sunni conflict on who was the
> > legitimate interpreter of the Quran after the Prophet Muhammad and who was
> > His legitimate successor.
>
> From a Sunni perspective, what you are saying seems silly because
> Sunnis aren't anti-Ali. In your mind this is really contentious but
> from mine it isn't.
>
>From a Shi`ah standpoint, it's quite foundational and not silly at all.
For a Sunni, `Ali was a successor (to `UthmAn) just equal to the other
three Caliphs and he is not regarded by Sunni Muslims as m`asum or
infallible. Shi`ah believes that `Ali, and `Ali alone, was the only
legitimate spiritual as wel as temporal successor to the Prophet and that
`Ali, and `Ali alone, was the Divinely-inspired authorized and infallible
interpreter of the Word of God. The Shi`ah consider the other 3 Caliphs
as usurpers. No Sunni can/will agree to that.
Regards,
Iskandar
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Re: Judaism 101 was Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Look, if you are saying an atheist can be a Jew according to Orthodox
> > Judaism I totally agree with you.
> Dear Gilberto,
> I'm not just saying he can be a Jew, he can be an *Orthodox Jew.*
> > Your friend's view is an anomaly and is in no way representative of
> > Jewish opinion generally.
>
> Sorry, I think my Orthodox Jewish friends are better able to define
> their own religion than some Muslim.
That's really insulting on so many levels. I didn't just ask you to
believe me because I'm claiming to be some kind of expert. I actually
pointed you to the references which back up what I'm saying (You
haven't done the same.) And it's not like I'm pulling this out of
the air. I've had Jewish friends and classmates too. And a non-trivial
factor in me becoming Muslim actually is an increased appreciation for
the "Jewish" aspects of the Bible and Christianity.
Modern-day Christians (to varying degrees) are anti-Jewish in a way
which bothered me. Christians have uncharitable views of the Jewish
law, just as Bahais tend to have uncharitable views of Islamic law..
or Muslims for that matter.
You have no right to dismiss what I'm tell you as the opinion of "some
Muslim". I would have more right to dismiss your views as the opinions
of "some Bahai" who thinks that Judaism has been superceded at least 4
times over, and who believes that the Jews deserved being persecuted
for 2000 years for killing Jesus.
I'm not just telling you to believe to me. Believe the references I'm
pointing to. But of course, you'll probably just ignore them. After
all, Rambam was just "some Jew".
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Re: 'Abdu'l-Baha and historical/critical interpretation
> One thing notable in SAQ is that 'Abdu'l-Baha often gives
> interpretations of
> the Bible that He only comes up with from working under an
> assumption. The
> assumption is that the Bible is the Word of God and therefore
> internally
> consistent.
Dear David,
You are making an assumption here that I would not agree with. The
Bible may well contiain the Word of God but that does not necessarily
make it internally consistent. In fact, it is not. But it is not
Abdu'l-Baha's way to point to inconsistencies. He would rather draw
the truth out wherever He finds it, rather than focus on flaws.
This is an assumption that a historian wouldn't be
> caught dead
> making!
Nope. But a historian would not have been caught dead making that
assumption about Abdu'l-Baha either. It would help us if you would
post the *exact* statement made by Abdu'l-Baha so we can all exam
whether He really said what you think. But if Abdu'l-Baha is urging us
not to take the Bible so literally, maybe we shouldn't take Abdu'l-
Baha so literally either.
warmest, Susan
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Let me double check what you are asking... You have a living
> community
> > of Muslims where everyone else is having congregational prayers in
> the
> > direction of Mecca. But this one person thinks thats a stupid idea
> and
> > doesn't want to pray in the direction of Mecca and instead wants to
> > pray in the direction of Graceland (I guess they really like Elvis or
> > something). And you are asking if this person should be considered a
> > Muslim?
> LOL. Well, you are the one who introduced the notion of ahl-i Qiblih.
> But let's take an example not quite so 9obviously absurd. Suppose you
> had an entire masjid, like the one run by Rashad Khalifa. And based on
> some idiosyncratic interpretation of the Qur'an, they *all* decided
> they would face Jerusalem instead of Mecca for their prayers. Are they
> Muslims?
I wouldn't easily make those kinds of judgements on people. But the
Quran is pretty clear on the subject:
"Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: Wherever ye
are, turn your faces in that direction." (Qur'an, Surah 2:144) and
regular Muslim practice on the subject is overwhelmingly clear as
well.
If a community is intending to face Mecca and they pray southeast
instead of northeast by mistake, I would say that they are Muslim. But
if an individual or community doesn't even have that intention, and
departs from univeral Muslim practice then they are taking themselves
out of the community.
-Gilberto
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Re: Judaism 101 was Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
> Look, if you are saying an atheist can be a Jew according to Orthodox
> Judaism I totally agree with you.
Dear Gilberto,
I'm not just saying he can be a Jew, he can be an *Orthodox Jew.*
>
> Your friend's view is an anomaly and is in no way representative of
> Jewish opinion generally.
Sorry, I think my Orthodox Jewish friends are better able to define
their own religion than some Muslim.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Baha'i Faith and the Bible
Dear David,
I would recommend you get Daniel Grolin's book on Jesus from George
Ronald. I think you might be barking up the wrong tree if you try and
reconcile everything the Writings say about Christian doctrine with
the Gospel accounts. As you noted, some of the material in the NT
supports a physical resurrection and some of it doesn't. I would point
out, however, that the Pauline material is the oldest. I also
recommend that you read James Robinson's scholarship which documents
how the ressurrection came to conceived of as physical. It grew out of
opposition to the gnostics which is the context in which Luke's gospel
is written.
warmest, Susan
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Judaism 101 was Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gilberto:
> > I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. There are two
> > different concepts which you are conflating.
Susan:
> I'm telling you you are wrong. I am familiar with those two things and
> I am not conflating them.
Gilberto:
So which one are you talking about?
Look, if you are saying an atheist can be a Jew according to Orthodox
Judaism I totally agree with you. In practice, the main factor for
Jewish identity is matrilineal descent. You can be Jewish and Buddhist
(many American Buddhists actually are). You can be Jewish and an
atheist. You can be Jewish and Wiccan. All sorts of things.
But if you are saying an Orthodox Jew is one who follows all the
commandments of Judaism, I showed you how in a comprehensive list of
613 commandments, the first 5 all have to do with loving and fearing,
and knowing that there is a God.
Most of the 13 established principles of Judaism have to do with the
existence of God and his attributes.
I think it is certainly possible that you have a friend who is the
child of a Jewish mother, who you think is maximally observant of
Jewish law, but on a personal level might have an ambiguous
relationship to God. And so they might think it is cool or funny or
provocative to say "I am an atheist Orthodox Jew" or "I am an agnostic
Orthodox Jew". And it is probably true that compared to Christianity,
Judaism puts more emphasis on matters of practice than matters of
belief.
But still, the existence of God is a foundational principle of Orthodox Judaism.
> And by the way, one
> of these agnostic Orthodox Jews I know does not consider someone like
> Martin Buber to be a Jew at all (despite his mother) because he wasn't
> Orthodox.
Your friend's view is an anomaly and is in no way representative of
Jewish opinion generally.
-Gilberto
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
> Let me double check what you are asking... You have a living
community
> of Muslims where everyone else is having congregational prayers in
the
> direction of Mecca. But this one person thinks thats a stupid idea
and
> doesn't want to pray in the direction of Mecca and instead wants to
> pray in the direction of Graceland (I guess they really like Elvis or
> something). And you are asking if this person should be considered a
> Muslim?
>
LOL. Well, you are the one who introduced the notion of ahl-i Qiblih.
But let's take an example not quite so 9obviously absurd. Suppose you
had an entire masjid, like the one run by Rashad Khalifa. And based on
some idiosyncratic interpretation of the Qur'an, they *all* decided
they would face Jerusalem instead of Mecca for their prayers. Are they
Muslims?
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Re: 'Abdu'l-Baha and historical/critical interpretation
Dear David,
On 1/25/06, David Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As an example, 'Abdu'l-Baha cites Matthew 27:51-53, which speaks of people
> in their graves coming to life at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. He says
> that had this happened it would have been recorded in history.
Yes, I agree. I've made the same argument myself. If the skies
darkened, the veil in the temple tore, there was an earthquake, and a
general resurrection, it is hard to imagine this literally happening
and escaping the secular historians.
> His argument
> that it did not literally happen is based on historical science. I would
> agree that this is a compelling argument. In a historical/critical sense,
> however, He did not prove that the text should be understood figuratively.
What's the difference between "historical science" and a
"historical/critical sense"?
> 'Abdu'l-Baha's argument is that since what the text describes couldn't have
> literally happened it's author therefore meant it to be understood
> symbolically. A historian would regard such an argument as preposterous.
I don't follow. I'm sure there are fundamentalist Christians who will
interpret it all literally and say that they are true. And there are
probably some anti-Christians who want to disprove the Bible and so
will regard the stories as literal but false. But why couldn't a
historian say, "these stories were probably meant to be taken
symbolically."?
> Should we regard every fantastic tale told in ancient times as meant to be
> understood symbolically just because of compelling historical silence?
It probably depends on the fantastic tale. There were some sorts of
"fantastic tales" which were still part of their everyday world view.
For example healing and exorcism. And there are religious communities
even today where that is still a regularized part of their day-to-day
life.
But even if you believe that miracles happen, or even that alot of
miracles happen, it is difficult to imagine anyone having a ho-hum
kind of attitude towards the events described in the Bible associated
with the crucifixion, especially a *general* resurrection of the dead.
And so the fact that the Bible is the only source for those accounts,
suggests that they didn't happen literally. And since the authors
would have known that, they would have intended them figuratively.
-Gilberto
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'Abdu'l-Baha and historical/critical interpretation
One thing notable in SAQ is that 'Abdu'l-Baha often gives interpretations of
the Bible that He only comes up with from working under an assumption. The
assumption is that the Bible is the Word of God and therefore internally
consistent. This is an assumption that a historian wouldn't be caught dead
making! Scholars work from what the text claims, and can't give a special
exception to how they interpret a text because they believe that text is the
Word of God. If we don't work under 'Abdu'l-Baha's assumption then often He
has not proved His interpretations correct at all.
As an example, 'Abdu'l-Baha cites Matthew 27:51-53, which speaks of people
in their graves coming to life at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. He says
that had this happened it would have been recorded in history. His argument
that it did not literally happen is based on historical science. I would
agree that this is a compelling argument. In a historical/critical sense,
however, He did not prove that the text should be understood figuratively.
'Abdu'l-Baha's argument is that since what the text describes couldn't have
literally happened it's author therefore meant it to be understood
symbolically. A historian would regard such an argument as preposterous.
Should we regard every fantastic tale told in ancient times as meant to be
understood symbolically just because of compelling historical silence? Many
ancient writers wrote about things which were meant to be taken literally,
but which could be dismissed through historical silence. It can't be
assumed that just because something described couldn't have happened
literally that therefore the author meant it to be taken symbolically! The
question I have is whether 'Abdu'l-Baha would take a passage similar to
Matthew 27:51-53 but in ancient mythology likewise figuratively. I think
not. If the Bible is the Word of God, then to 'Abdu'l-Baha it must be
consistent. Therefore, the symbolic interpretation of Matthew 27:51-53
becomes a necessity - otherwise the Bible would be wrong.
Another example is 'Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation of the resurrection of
Jesus as given in the Gospels. He doesn't prove His point at all, unless we
work under His assumption. Only when we work under that assumption is His
interpretation valid. Note that in His explanation 'Abdu'l-Baha does not
once appeal to the text of the Gospels which describe the resurrection.
Note what He does. He interprets the chapters about the resurrection in
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John through passages in John prior to the
resurrection. In order for His argument to work we have to work under these
assumptions: 1) The Gospel of John is internally consistent, 2) Because the
Gospel of John said something therefore the three other authors must have
thought the same thing. A historian would find such an assertion laughable.
If a historian wants to know what Mark Twain thought, they read what he
wrote. They don't look at Hemingway. So what we see with 'Abdu'l-Baha's
resurrection argument is that it avoids direct proof by making assumptions
historians don't make. A historian can't make a special exception in how
they interpret a certain work because they believe that work is the Word of
God.
A final example is 'Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation of the numerical prophecies
in Daniel. He cites passages from OTHER books in the Bible which show that
a day equals a year in prophecy. He then assumes that the Bible must be
consistent to interpret Daniel as having meant to prophecy rather lengthy
periods of time in His prophecies. A historian cannot assume that because
some authors who lived hundreds of years ago thought that a day equaled a
year in prophecy that therefore Daniel must have thought the same! In order
to determine what Daniel thought they would turn to Daniel. They wouldn't
assume He meant to equate a day with a year unless they found something
suggesting that was His intention.
I hope this will trigger off some good discussion.
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Baha'i Faith and the Bible
For many years now I have been unable to reconcile many passages of the
Bible with interpretations given in the Writings. I originally came up with
biblical arguments in support of all the various interpretations, using many
in articles I wrote. The more I read the Bible, however, the more I started
finding myself unable to support arguments I had previously given, and
arguments from the Writings. My arguments now seemed to be weak
rationalizations that I only came up with because of a desire to prove the
Baha'i Faith right. Late in the year 2000 I found I disagreed with
virtually all of my interpretations given in articles posted on the Baha'i
Library site. Because of this I felt morally obliged to request several
articles of mine to be removed. In the year 2000 I wrote a fair bit of a
book that was meant to give extensive proof that the resurrection of Jesus
was really non-physical, according to the text of the Bible. I ended up
wiping all of it when I found I could no more support the belief that the
Gospel accounts of the resurrections were intended to be taken figuratively
(I still agreed that Paul spoke of the resurrection as non-physical). All
arguments that the Gospel accounts should be understood figuratively seem
weak to me. What I found, and still find, is that a lot of the time when
the Writings give interpretations of the Bible the interpretation seems
quite reasonable. The rest of the time, however, the interpretations seem
absurd. Those reasonable seeming interpretations always seem to be
interpretations that have wide acceptance in the Christian community. It
says in the Writings that interpretation of Holy Books is affected by the
level of selflessness. It's difficult to say my seeing most Baha'i
interpretations as absurd is due to lack of spirituality on my part, because
how would one explain why other interpretations seem fine to me? My sudden
switch to often finding Christian arguments better than Baha'i arguments was
worrying, as they are supposed to be the ignorant ones. I would be
interested to see if others can identify with what I say here.
Regards,
David
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Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
>
> I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. There are two
> different concepts which you are conflating. A
I'm telling you you are wrong. I am familiar with those two things and
I am not conflating them.
> > I understand that. But that doesn't mean that an atheist "orthodox
> Jew" is somehow perfectly cool with Orthodox Judaism.
Whether they are 'pefectly cool' or not is irrelevant. They are
accepted as Orthodox so long as they act that way. If they stop
keeping kosher then they are not Orthodox anymore. And by the way, one
of these agnostic Orthodox Jews I know does not consider someone like
Martin Buber to be a Jew at all (despite his mother) because he wasn't
Orthodox.
warmest, Susan
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Re: expecting the Messiah
http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm The Messianic Idea in Judaism - Original Message - From: "Khazeh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Baha'i Studies" Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:07 AM Subject: expecting the Messiah in that same website that dear Gilberto mentioned we read these about the Messiah http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=108400 What does the word Mashiach mean? Mashiach is the Hebrew word for Messiah. The word Messiah in English means a saviour or a "hoped-for deliverer". The word Mashiach in Hebrew actually means "anointed". In Biblical Hebrew the title Mashiach was bestowed on somebody who had attained a position of nobility and greatness. For example, the High Priest is referred to as the Kohen Hamashiach. In Talmudic literature the title Mashiach, or Melech Hamashiach, (the King Messiah) is reserved for the Jewish leader who will redeem Israel in the End of Days. What is the belief in Mashiach? One of the principles of Jewish faith enumerated by Maimonides is that one day there will arise a dynamic Jewish leader, a direct descendant of the Davidic dynasty, who will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and gather Jews from all over the world and bring them back to the Land of Israel. All the nations of the world will recognise Mashiach to be a world leader and will accept his dominion. In the messianic era there will be world peace, no more wars nor famine and, in general, a high standard of living. All mankind will worship one G-d and live a more spiritual and moral way of life. The Jewish nation will be preoccupied with learning Torah and fathoming its secrets. The coming of Mashiach will complete G-d's purpose in creation: for man to make an abode for G-d in the lower worlds; to reveal the inherent spirituality in the material world. Is this not a utopian dream? No! Judaism fervently believes that, with the correct leadership, humankind can and will change. The leadership quality of Mashiach means that through his dynamic personality and example, coupled with manifest humility, he will inspire all people to strive for good. He will transform a seemingly utopian dream into a reality. He will be recognised as a man of G-d with greater leadership qualities than even Moshe. In today's society many people are repulsed by the breakdown of ethical and moral standards. Life is cheap, crime is rampant, drug and alcohol abuse are on the increase, children have lost respect for their elders. At the same time technology has advanced in quantum leaps. There is no doubt that today, if channelled correctly, man has all the resources necessary to create a good standard of living for all mankind. He lacks only the social and political will. Mashiach will inspire all men to fulfil that aim. Why the belief in a human Messiah? Some people believe that the world will "evolve" by itself into a messianic era without a human figurehead. Judaism rejects this belief. Human history has been dominated by empire builders greedy for power. Others believe in Armageddon - that the world will self-destruct, either by nuclear war or by terrorism. Again Judaism rejects this view. Our prophets speak of the advent of a human leader, the magnitude of whom the world has not yet experienced. His unique example and leadership will inspire mankind to change direction. Where is Mashiach mentioned in the Scriptures? The Scriptures are replete with messianic quotes. In Deuteronomy 30:1 Moshe prophesies that, after the Jews have been scattered to the four corners of the earth, there will come a time when they will repent and return to Israel where they will fulfil all the commandments of the Torah. The gentile prophet Bilam prophesies that this return will be lead by Mashiach (see Numbers 24:17-20). Jacob refers to Mashiach by the name Shilo (Genesis 49:10). The prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Joel and Hosea all refer to the messianic era. For full references the reader is referred to the book Mashiach by Rabbi Dr.I.Schochet. It is interesting to note that on the wall of the United Nations building in New York is inscribed the quote from Isaiah (Ch.11:6), "And the wolf shall lie with the lamb". Furthermore, it is clear from the prophets, when studied in their original Hebrew, that Mashiach is a Jewish concept and will entail return to Torah law, firmly ruling out any "other" messianic belief. What sort of leader will Mashiach be? Mashiach will be a man who possesses extraordinary qualities. He will be proficient in both the written and oral Torah traditions. He will incessantly campaign for Torah observance among Jews and observance of the Seven Universal Noahide Laws by non-Jews. He will be scrupulously observant and encourage the highest standards from others. He will defend religious principles and repair breaches in their observance. Above all, Mashiach will be heralded as a true Jewish King, a person who leads the way in the service of G-d, totally humble yet enormously inspiring.
expecting the Messiah
in that same website that dear Gilberto mentioned we read these about the Messiah http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=108400 What does the word Mashiach mean? Mashiach is the Hebrew word for Messiah. The word Messiah in English means a saviour or a "hoped-for deliverer". The word Mashiach in Hebrew actually means "anointed". In Biblical Hebrew the title Mashiach was bestowed on somebody who had attained a position of nobility and greatness. For example, the High Priest is referred to as the Kohen Hamashiach. In Talmudic literature the title Mashiach, or Melech Hamashiach, (the King Messiah) is reserved for the Jewish leader who will redeem Israel in the End of Days. What is the belief in Mashiach? One of the principles of Jewish faith enumerated by Maimonides is that one day there will arise a dynamic Jewish leader, a direct descendant of the Davidic dynasty, who will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and gather Jews from all over the world and bring them back to the Land of Israel. All the nations of the world will recognise Mashiach to be a world leader and will accept his dominion. In the messianic era there will be world peace, no more wars nor famine and, in general, a high standard of living. All mankind will worship one G-d and live a more spiritual and moral way of life. The Jewish nation will be preoccupied with learning Torah and fathoming its secrets. The coming of Mashiach will complete G-d's purpose in creation: for man to make an abode for G-d in the lower worlds; to reveal the inherent spirituality in the material world. Is this not a utopian dream? No! Judaism fervently believes that, with the correct leadership, humankind can and will change. The leadership quality of Mashiach means that through his dynamic personality and example, coupled with manifest humility, he will inspire all people to strive for good. He will transform a seemingly utopian dream into a reality. He will be recognised as a man of G-d with greater leadership qualities than even Moshe. In today's society many people are repulsed by the breakdown of ethical and moral standards. Life is cheap, crime is rampant, drug and alcohol abuse are on the increase, children have lost respect for their elders. At the same time technology has advanced in quantum leaps. There is no doubt that today, if channelled correctly, man has all the resources necessary to create a good standard of living for all mankind. He lacks only the social and political will. Mashiach will inspire all men to fulfil that aim. Why the belief in a human Messiah? Some people believe that the world will "evolve" by itself into a messianic era without a human figurehead. Judaism rejects this belief. Human history has been dominated by empire builders greedy for power. Others believe in Armageddon - that the world will self-destruct, either by nuclear war or by terrorism. Again Judaism rejects this view. Our prophets speak of the advent of a human leader, the magnitude of whom the world has not yet experienced. His unique example and leadership will inspire mankind to change direction. Where is Mashiach mentioned in the Scriptures? The Scriptures are replete with messianic quotes. In Deuteronomy 30:1 Moshe prophesies that, after the Jews have been scattered to the four corners of the earth, there will come a time when they will repent and return to Israel where they will fulfil all the commandments of the Torah. The gentile prophet Bilam prophesies that this return will be lead by Mashiach (see Numbers 24:17-20). Jacob refers to Mashiach by the name Shilo (Genesis 49:10). The prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Joel and Hosea all refer to the messianic era. For full references the reader is referred to the book Mashiach by Rabbi Dr.I.Schochet. It is interesting to note that on the wall of the United Nations building in New York is inscribed the quote from Isaiah (Ch.11:6), "And the wolf shall lie with the lamb". Furthermore, it is clear from the prophets, when studied in their original Hebrew, that Mashiach is a Jewish concept and will entail return to Torah law, firmly ruling out any "other" messianic belief. What sort of leader will Mashiach be? Mashiach will be a man who possesses extraordinary qualities. He will be proficient in both the written and oral Torah traditions. He will incessantly campaign for Torah observance among Jews and observance of the Seven Universal Noahide Laws by non-Jews. He will be scrupulously observant and encourage the highest standards from others. He will defend religious principles and repair breaches in their observance. Above all, Mashiach will be heralded as a true Jewish King, a person who leads the way in the service of G-d, totally humble yet enormously inspiring. When will Mashiach come? Jews anticipate the arrival of Mashiach everyday. Our prayers are full of requests to G-d to usher in the messianic era. Even at the ga
Re: kalimat- accepting apparent disagreements over interpretation of the writings
On 1/25/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I think there at least two different issues.
>
> You're missing the point, Gilberto. I am talking about *Orthodox* Jews
> who follow the entirety of the Law yet do not believe in God. They are
> not just Orthodox Jews because their mothers are.
I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. There are two
different concepts which you are conflating. A) What do you need to
say, do, believe in order to be a Jew and B) What is a Jew supposed to
say, do, believe.
>
> "Thirteen Fundamental
> > Principles" of the Jewish faith, as derived from the Torah.
>
> Yes, there are thirteen principles. But so long as you follow the Law
> you are not obliged to believe any of them to be considered an
> Orthodox Jew.
I understand that. But that doesn't mean that an atheist "orthodox
Jew" is somehow perfectly cool with Orthodox Judaism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
There is a traditional list of 613 commandments which the rabbis say
are found in the Torah. And the very first commandment at the very
beginning of the list is
To know there is a God Ex. 20:2
In fact, the first 5 are:
To know there is a God Ex. 20:2
Not to entertain thoughts of other gods besides Him Ex. 20:3
To know that He is one Deut. 6:4
To love Him Deut. 6:5
To fear Him Deut. 10:20
-Gilberto
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