from:"Rich Ater"

Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions

2008-01-03 Thread Rich Ater

Iskandar Hai wrote:

Dear Rich:

Actually, `Abdu'l-Baha did not reverse Himself; it's rather
straightforward if you follow it rather carefully. Here is the thing: as
you know, `Abdu'l-Baha is the Interpreter of Baha'u'llah's mind not
just the Writings of Baha'u'llah; so, `Abdu'l-Baha tells Baha'is that
Baha'u'llah didn't allow bigamy. Then the Covenant-breakers use this as
an excuse to malign Him by misrepresenting what He says as abrogating
what to them was the explicit Text of the Aqdas. Then, `Abdu'l-Baha
explains that, no, He is not abrogating the Aqdas, that no one in this
Dispensation has the authority to abrogate the Aqdas, that He is
interpreting the intent of Aqdas, etc., etc., etc. `Abdu'l-Baha, and
only `Abdul-Baha, can do this because He is the Interpreter of the
mind of Baha'u'llah and only `Abdu'l-Baha is the Interpreter of the
Baha'u'llah's mind.

Good wishes,
Iskandar

Iskander,

Bless you. This helps a great deal, it also illustrates why more of us
need to learn Arabic and Persian to further our understanding. We can't
wait for others to translate everything.

Thank you, Rich

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Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions

2008-01-02 Thread Rich Ater

Susan Maneck wrote:

I can appreciate the need to

translate all the writings, but I sometimes wonder if these commentaries
might be more helpful.

Dear Rich,

Personally I don't want to read other people's commentary when I can't
read the original text.

But we do have the text.

We've both heard folks say that Abdul-Baha

abrogated bigamy and that, now, only monogamy is permitted.

Whatever Abdu'l-Baha might have said, Shoghi Effendi left no doubt
whatsoever that only monogamy was to be permitted.

Where?

The quote

from Amr Va Khalq casts that into doubt.

Amr Va Khalq also states that women can vote but not hold office in
Baha'i Administration.

Which Abdul-Baha later reversed. He can reverse his own comentary. I'm
not suggesting that we accept commentary as revelation, but that does
bring up the point of whether or not we're ready as a community to make
that distinction. I would however like to read more of the commentary so
learning Persian I will go!

It should indeed. And Persian is a cinch compared to Arabic.

I hope so, but some of the compound verbs confound me.

Rich

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Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions

2008-01-01 Thread Rich Ater

Dear Sen,

I got a lot out of your response to Ron. It does bring up up a couple of
issues for me. Why hasn't the Persian or Arabic Bayan been translated
into English as this might help clarify some issues? Also why have
commentaries on the laws from such collections as Amr Va Khalq not been
translated? My Arabic is mediocre and my Persian is nonexistant, while
I'm working on improving the one and learning the other, English
translations would be helpful. I have used the translations of the Bayan
from EG Browne that are in the appendix of Momen's collection of
Browne's writings, a scholarly Baha'i translation would be bebeficial.
Finally, while I ramble, are there available copies of the Arabic and
Persian Bayans in the original, that can be purchased?

Rich

Re: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions

2008-01-01 Thread Rich Ater

Susan Maneck wrote:

Also why have

commentaries on the laws from such collections as Amr Va Khalq not been
translated?

We aren't going to see commentaries being translated when we have yet
to translate all the Writings!

warmest, Susan

Hi Susan,

Long time. Thanks for the web sites. I can appreciate the need to
translate all the writings, but I sometimes wonder if these commentaries
might be more helpful. We've both heard folks say that Abdul-Baha
abrogated bigamy and that, now, only monogamy is permitted. The quote
from Amr Va Khalq casts that into doubt. I'm not recommending bigamy,
mind you, one spouse is more than enough believe me. It just appears to
be the example given. Anyway, this is a good encouragement to start
studying Persian. The Arabic vocab should help.

Rich

Re: Catholic questions

2007-08-06 Thread Rich Ater

Susan Maneck wrote:

In many countries Catholic priests were

marrying up to about 1000 AD. I

Dear Rich,

They still do marry in Lebanon.

warmest, Susan

Susan,

Also in the Ctholic Uniate Church in Ukrania. These churches, both the
Lebanese Marionite, the Catholic Uniate, and some others are in
communion with the Holy See. That is , they recognize the Pope as a
first among equals, but are not bound by the rules of the Roman
Church. For example their rites were never in Latin.

Rich

Re: Catholic questions

2007-08-03 Thread Rich Ater

David,

Limbo was nixed years ago. The Pope may be reminding folks, but it
hasn't been Catholic doctrine for years. Papal infallability has only
been a doctrine since the 1870s, how it came about is a fascinating
story. Susan is right the Pope is only infallable when speaking ex
cathedra (From the throne) The infallability of doctrine is a rather
plastic thing and not everything that Catholics believe is actual
doctrine. There are many things that it is up to individual believer to
decide on. As to women priests, that is church tradition, not doctrine.
Just like married priests. In many countries Catholic priests were
marrying up to about 1000 AD. I would suggest getting a Catholic
Catechism to find out what the essential beliefs are.

Pax Vobiscum,

Rich

Re: Short Obligatory Prayer

2007-04-26 Thread Rich Ater

Larry Marquardt wrote:

Dear Friends,

In regards to the Short Obligatory prayer, I bear witness O my God...

Can anyone offer their understanding why the invocation 'O My God' is written at the beginning of the Short Obligatory prayer in Arabic but is written after 'I bear witness' when translated into English?

Thank you,
Larry

Larry,

It's not. The short obligatory prayer starts out Ashadu ya allahi, I
bear withness all my God.

Rich

Re: Some help

2006-02-07 Thread Rich Ater

Benjamin La Framboise wrote:

Dearest friends,

I have a little favor to ask, and I'm only reluctant because I'm
afraid it's not really related to Baha'i Studies. I'm just not sure
where else to turn.

I have a couple of friends, a Baha'i and a Muslim, both devout, who
would like to get married. The friend who is Muslim had to go through
some serious soul-searching before really accepting the Baha'i-ness of
his prospective mate (thought he would go to Hell if he married a
Baha'i). He's now looking for two things: 1) he's asked me if I knew
of any Muslim/Baha'i couples in which both consider themselves devout
(for support purposes; he's looking for someone else who's already
been through what he's going through); and 2) if I knew of any
progressive imams (who would possibly marry the two of them).

As I said, I didn't know where else to turn; I have a lot of faith and
trust in the diversity and experience of this particular group, and I
was hoping someone could point me in a productive direction. Feel
free to contact me directly, rather than take up any more list space.

Sorry for the use of bandwidth!

Ben

Ben,

I also know a couple where the husband is Musim and the wife is Baha'i.
He comes to feast and watches the kids during consultation. I'll look
for an Imam. I might know one.

Rich

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Re: Some help

2006-02-07 Thread Rich Ater

Benjamin La Framboise wrote:

Dear Rich,

Thanks for the email. Would this Muslim consider himself 'devout'?
That's an interesting arrangement (regarding Feast); I'd never heard
that before, and I guess it still preserves the Baha'i-onlyness of the
business portion, right?

Would your friends mind receiving questions from the person to whom I
referred?

Thanks for the imam-search, too. Much appreciated.

Ben

Ben,

I'm not sure how devout he is, but he has not converted and openly
identifies himself as Muslim. He takes the kids to a seperate room and
is not part of the consultation. This way his wife, the Baha'i, can
participate in the buisiness portion undisturbed. They are both of
Iranian background, but met here I believe. The Imam I'm thinking of is
Indian, I'll try to contact him later this week.

Rich

Re: badaa: a Prophet before one thousand years?

2006-01-28 Thread Rich Ater

*/[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* escribió:

...badaa signifies a change in the Divine Will. So theoretically
it would be possible. But given the strong language Baha'u'llah
used in that regard, I think it about as likely as God changing
the law of gravity (which theoretically He *could* do as well.)

Susan others,

Is Badaa related Bidaa (Inovation)? Just curious.

Rich

Re: Question: wife of Mohammed

2005-12-04 Thread Rich Ater

firestorm wrote:

for reasons of my own, i have always been rather find of aisha. do we have any
available clues as to what her issues with the Imam Ali were? or at least, what
people said they were?

Firestorm,

Aisha sided with Mu'awiyya and the Ummayyads against Ali's authority as
Caliph, if I remember my Islamic history correctly. She even raised an
army against him. She is not held in high esteem by the Shi'i. You can
find out more by reading Balyuzi's Muhammad and the Course of Islam. I
believe it is included in Ocean.

Rich

Re: seeking former Catholic religious who accepted Baha'u'llah

2005-11-27 Thread Rich Ater

marylou9 wrote:

Dear friends,

These are the early days of a special project and I would like to ask your
assistance.

I am gathering stories and experiences of former Catholics
as well as former priests and nuns who have become Bahais.

The focus will be how they learned of the Bahai Faith
and what were the steps which led them to the acceptance of Baha'u'llah from thier CAtholic backgrounds.

I hope to gather these stories and share the journey of these souls
with other people who have similar experiences. Of course all will be done with
the permission of the individuals.

Perhaps it would be best if you wrote me directly..

Thank you for your consideration..
May you each be assisted in your journey..

Maria Luisa Krummenacker

Maria,

I grew up Catholic/Greek Orthodox. Contact me in private and we'll talk.

Rich

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Re: Question: wife of Mohammed

2005-11-26 Thread Rich Ater

Sandra wrote:

In an interview with Newsweek, former US Secretary of State. Madeleine
Albright makes the following comment: “Islam itself and the Qur'an are
not actually antiwoman. Mohammed was married to a businesswoman. It is
more the culture of particular Arab countries and not Islam.”

Could someone enlighten me concerning the business occupation of His wife?

Sandra,

Khadija was a wealthy widow who owned a trading company. She was 40 and
Muhammad was 25 when they were married. She placed Muhammad in charge of
her company and she was the first to believe in Him. She is the mother
of Fatimih. While she was alive she was Muhammad's only wife and they
were devoted to each other. After her death Muhammad married other
wives, but they were political marriages, or marriages to the widows of
followers who had died in battle.

In regards to women in Islam, Ms. Alright is quite right. One of
Muhammad's wives's Aisha, is quoted quite often in Sunni tradition. The
Shi's don't care for her much, but that's because she opposed Ali. None
the less, she was a force to be reckoned with in early Islam. Rabia, was
an early woman mystic and scholar in Islam as well.

I hope this helps. If Gilberto is lurking out their, he could probably
add a lot more.

Rich

Re: Baha'i Liberation Theology ((long quote))

2005-10-02 Thread Rich Ater

Susan Maneck wrote:

One problem in interpreting Baha'i doctrine as Liberation Theology lies in
the fact that Baha'is are usually discouraged from involving themselves in
political affairs. Cole regards this a temporary measure adopted by
`Abdu'l-Baha, made in response to the turmoil of the Iranian Constitutional
Revolution which has been maintained by the Baha'i community in its early
stage of development to avoid internal divisions. Cole argues that avoidance
of party politics should not exclude social activism among Baha'is. The
poor, like other Baha'is, according to Cole, are called upon to denounce
tyranny and infractions against basic human rights, to work for
parliamentary democracy, to allow for the expression of the views of the
humblest Baha'i within the community, and to reform the world's economy so
as to reflect the divine attribute of justice (93).

Susan,
I followed what you were saying, and I agree that we should eschew
partisan politics. The problem is that I think we take that too far and
eschew all political stances. I agree with Mark's statement as someone
with a Marxist bent that theory must be followed with praxis. So, as a
Baha'i should I not be active in issues such as forced child labor,
first world incursions into the third world, or a variety of other
issues that the Faith speaks out about. Baha'u'llah says we should
admonish the rich. How do we do that if we eschew all activism? The
House condemned free market capitalism in the Century of Light, should I
remain silent about it's practices? I bring this up for discussion
because they're important issues.

Rich

Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-17 Thread Rich Ater


Susan Maneck wrote:


Would it not be the case that
CBs also no longer fot the criteria for being Baha'is?

Were that simply the case, then why not just remove them from the roles
rather than declare them Covenant breakers?
 


Principally because of the act of trying to destroy the Covenant.
Rich

 






   









 







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Re: Self Identification (was: Re: Devastating stampede)

2005-09-17 Thread Rich Ater


Tim,
   Those were wonderful points and I agree with them. It is only when 
the claims effect how Baha'is are percieved by others that I have an 
issue. I believe that when the Remeyites tried to use the name of the 
Baha'i Faith in the early sixties, they were taken to court and told 
that they could not, it was at that point that they started refering to 
themselves as Orthodox Baha'is.

Rich




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Re: Self Identification

2005-09-17 Thread Rich Ater

Mark,
I am humbled. I had forgotten about that quote. You are quite right.
I've gained some knowledge from the discussion, and in one sense I still
think that we need to be vigilant about how the name Baha'i is used, but
I also agree that in the broader sense there are Baha'i who have never
heard of Baha'u'llah and declared believers who Baha'u'llah doesn't
know. I hasten to add that I don't have the temerity to claim knowledge
of who they are. It's between God and them.
I think it may be time to lay this discussion to bed and move on to
more fruitful ones.

Rich

Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-16 Thread Rich Ater

My point is that the Universal House of Justice apparently *does* consider
Covenant breakers Baha'is on some level but not those it has removed from
the roles. Otherwise the ones they removed from the roles would have been
declared CBs as well.

warmest, Susan

Susan,

Maybe it's a matter of semantics here. They had to be Baha'is to break
the Baha'i Covenant, but the moment they broke the Covenant, or The
House stated that they broke the Covenant, they ceased to be Baha'is. If
I understand i,t the people that the House disenrolled were considered
to have never been Baha'is in the first place, whereas Covenant Breakers
were Baha'is and ceased to be so after breaking the covenant. As to the
followers of Covenant Breakers they never have been Baha'is.

Rich

Re: Mystified

2005-09-16 Thread Rich Ater

Richard H. Gravelly wrote:

I thank you very much Rich. Would it be possible then that ghars,
gharasa, and gharasi refer to the planting with tree being
understood in the following passage?

In the year ghars [i.e.1260] the earth shall be illumined by His
light, and
in gharasa [1265] the world shall be suffused with its glory
[?al-baha']. If

thou livest until the year gharasi [1270], thou shalt witness how the
nations, the rulers, the peoples, and the Faith of God shall all have
been

renewed.[52]

Richard,
I believe so. I think they are all forms of Gharasa, but I'd like
Khazeh or Iskandar for confirmation.

Rich

Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-16 Thread Rich Ater

As to what I'm going to do, I'm not going to
say they're Baha'i when I don't believe they are.

Fine, don't. What are you going to do about it? Hit them with a
trademark violation?

I ask again because you did not answer.

I left my quote above as to what I do in these circumstances. When
asked, which is rarely, I say they are not Baha'i and list the criteria
under which the administrative order says that someone is Baha'i.

The faith should be attractive to the people you wish to teach.

The Faith is most attractive when we are honest and stop trying to give
answers that we hope are pleasing, or at least not uncomfortable. I've
seen trying to answer with what we think others want blow up. I was
addressing an interfaith group and a women asked if it was true that
women were not allowed on the House. I said yes and that I didn't know
why it was so. She accepted this, I've seen others get into real binds
trying to justify it so that societal norms weren't ruffled.

Rich

Regards,

Scott

Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-16 Thread Rich Ater

To my knowledge this is not the case. I've never seen the House say anything
to the effect that they *never* were really Baha'is only that they did not
meet the qualifications of membership at the time they were disenrolled.

People change.

warmest, Susan

Susan
Excellent point and I stand corrected. Would it not be the case that
CBs also no longer fot the criteria for being Baha'is? It is in this
sense that I am saying that they are not Baha'is. As to others
identifying themselves as Baha'is, I think they can als identify
themselves as flying squirrels, but they don't meet the criteria for
that either and I'm not going to tell them that they are either.

Rich

Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-14 Thread Rich Ater

Wouldn't that be true of those who were removed from the roles, as well?

There must be some distinction.

warmest, Susan

Susna,
I would agree, but I don't see your point. They're still not
Baha'is, right?

Rich

Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-14 Thread Rich Ater

You are taking the passage out of context. It is addressed to religious
leaders, not scientists. The standards and sciences referred to are those of
Islamic theology.

warmest, Susan

No I'm not. I may be interpreting it differently than you, but I am not
taking it out of context. The standards of modern materialism
secularism that are used to dismiss religion in general as well as the
Faith in particular are just as aplicable to this verse as are the
theological disputations of the Shi'a. I was reading some of EG Brown's
memoirs the other day and he recounted a conversation he had with Mirza
Haydar Ali, in which he posited a similar question regarding reason and
revelation. Mirza Haydar Ali responded that reason must be used to find
the Manifestation, but once He is found and accepted one must obey even
if it goes against ones reason.

I'm not saying that we should become blind robots, but I also believe
that reason has it's limitations. I believe that that was what Kant and
Wittgenstein were getting at. Somethings go beyond reason, they are
articles of faith and reason cfannot take you there. One of these is
following what the Manifestation said. To bring it back to my original
issue, Jesus said that there were many who would claim to speak in his
name, but He will say I never knew you. Whom am I to believe, those who
claim to speak in Jesus's name or Jesus? Baha'u'llah says if people
don't follow the covenant, they are not Baha'is, that is the guideline
I'm going by.

Rich

Re: Mystified

2005-09-14 Thread Rich Ater










I have planted their trees 



(ana (I) gharastu (have planted_ ashjar (Trees) aha (their) 


Rich




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Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-14 Thread Rich Ater

So? What are you going to do hit them with a trademark violation
for CLAIMING to be Baha`i?

Its pointless to try to stop self-identification its against
everything western society holds dear.

Scott,
Who says I care about everything Western Society holds dear? The
Master didn't, neither did the Guardian. Western Society has it's good
points and its bad points. As to what I'm going to do, I'm not going to
say they're Baha'i when I don't believe they are.

Rich
PS
Isn't saying that trying to stop self identification is against
everything that western society holds dear a bit of an over statement.

Re: Self-Definition

2005-09-11 Thread Rich Ater

I am always a Baha'i, always a sociologist, and always an individual. I have no
problem simultaneously seeing an issue from various perspectives associated
with each of these statuses.

Mark,
Of course you are. Upon rereading my response, it was churlish and I
apologize.

My point was that, as a sociologist of religion, I have no choice but to acknowledge a
person's religious identity. Although I am not a Weberian, I don't see how I can do
sociology without having at least a minimal degree of Verstehen (to
understand in Weber's sense of empathic understanding).

I can accept that. I can even agree with it. I would never say that
a schizophrenic isn't really hearing voices. A poor anology perhaps,
but my point is that I couldn't have a therapeutic relationship without
accepting that this is true for him.

Are you disagreeing that this is a Baha'i studies, not a Baha'i, list?

No, that I disagree that they are still Baha'is if they have broken
the covenant or joined a group of Covenent breakers, but I now see that
I was misunderstanding the point that you were making.

Rich

Re: al-ghars

2005-09-11 Thread Rich Ater

Mark A. Foster wrote:

Richard,

At 10:11 PM 9/10/2005, you wrote:

Dr. Lawson translates (ana gharastu ashjaraha) to I have planted their trees. Does
al-ghars refer to the tree or to the planting thereof or to both?

Ghars (tree) is the singular of aghsan. al- is the definite article. The
abjad value of ghars is 1260 (1844).

I'm confused here. The Arabic for Tree is Shaja(t). The word Shajar can
also mean trees, and I believe that Ashjarha is the plural of that.
While I'm not sure of the word Gharastu, it has the verbal first person
perfect ending. Therefore I think the Ghar has to do with planting.
Aghsan could be one of the verbal nouns that is constructed from this.
In any event my Arabic ain't what it used to be, so I could be wrong.

Rich

Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-09 Thread Rich Ater

Mark A. Foster wrote:

Rich,

At 05:02 PM 9/5/2005, you wrote:

We're not sociologists, we're Baha'is and we go by the Baha'i definitions of Covenent Breakers and their followers.

Not everyone on this list is a Baha'i. This is also not a "Baha'i" list. It is a Baha'i studies list. That would include sociological, historical, economic, psychological, etc. approaches to the study of the Baha'i Faith.

I wouldn't. The Faith, not the university, is the arbiter here.

Again, this is a Baha'i studies list. "The Faith" is also not a monolith. Baha'is have different perspectives. Some of those perspectives are academic.

The stance on these groups, from the standpoint of the Faith should be taken from the writings of the Central Figures of the Faith and the administration, not from Durkheim and Strauss, or whoever the pet theorist in sociology is these days.

On this list, perspectives from Durkheim, Strauss, and even Freud are welcome.

The followers are not considered covenant breakers, true, they are also not considered Baha'is.

They are not considered Baha'is by the Universal House of Justice. However, if they define themselves as Baha'is, as a sociologist, I have to recognize them as such.

Mark,

My point was that the Gilberto made a statement about how Baha'is
react to or regard covenant breakers. While I can respect your
methodology, I think in the case given I think it muddied the picture
rather than making it clearer.

I agree that Durkheim, straus, and Frued are welcome here, when
they are to the point. I just don't think your comment was to the
point. I don't mean that to sound judgemental, and looking back I did
sound so. I apologize for that. I guess, what troubles me is that
appears that there is a willingness to ignore or shuffle off the Faith
when we put on our academic hats. Non Baha'is on the list, at least to
me, seem to be asking for Baha'i responses not academic responses.
While I believe that scholarship can indeed help the Faith, it's job is
to help us understand the teachings, not relace them. I with Aquinas,
where Revelation and Reason collide, Revelation is correct.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended you Mark, I hold you in the greatest
respect. I just don't agree with you here.
Rich

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Re: Self-Definition

2005-09-09 Thread Rich Ater

Mark A. Foster wrote:

I define myself differently in different contexts. Why are you being so judgmental? I don't recall you ever having expressed yourself in this way.

I guess I don't. When I'm treating patients, I'm a Baha'i.

Ian Semple, in a talk on obedience, discussed the collaborater who says he had no choice but to betray others, or he would have been killed. Semple says he could have chosen to die.

I don't see how that relates to me.

Only in that you said you had no choice. I was this example to
illustrate that you did have a choice and you made it.

This is a Baha'i studies list, not a Baha'i list. In any event, I think that my responses have reflected my views both as a sociologist and as a Baha'i.

Fair enough, Then, I respectfully disagree with you.

The Baha'i Faith is the eternal faith of God, not a sociological organization in the sense that it is being defended and discussed in this issues.

In grad school I wrote a paper on healthcare views in the Baha'i Faith from a nursing and anthropological perspective and I kept that perspective, but I didn't kid myself that it had anything to do with the Faith from it's own perspective.

Is there any single Baha'i perspective on most issues? I don't think so.

There are the teachings and the administrative rules on who isn't and who is a Baha'i. Once again, I go back to my stance that Non-Baha'is are asking for a Baha;i answer. As a student of Comparative Religion, if you were to ask if if there were sects in the Faith, I'd have to say yes. I would also answer that a Baha'i I don't accept them as sects. Otherwise it's all too easy for someone to go away thinking the Baha'is accept Covenant breakers as Baha'is. I would also add that as an academic foloks will often look you as an expert and accept your answer as the correct answer, not as a "perspective".

Once again, I'm not trying to fight with you, beleive what you want.
Rich

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Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-09 Thread Rich Ater


Susan Maneck wrote:


I guess from a Baha'i perspective we wouldn't see this as splinter
Baha'i groups, because from our point of view they stopped being Baha'is
at the moment they broke off from any point of the administrative order.

Dear Rich,

I'm not sure that is true. In recent years the Universal House of Justice
has chosen to remove some people from the rolls rather than declare them
Covenant breakers. The rationale was that they had determined they weren't
really Baha'is and thus bound by the Covennat.

warmest, Susan
 


Susan,
   But nontheless, they are no longer considered Baha'is, right?
Rich






 







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Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-09 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto Simpson wrote:

On 9/9/05, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

My point was that the Gilberto made a statement about how Baha'is react
to or regard covenant breakers. While I can respect your methodology, I
think in the case given I think it muddied the picture rather than making it
clearer.

I don't think Mark's comments did that. I don't think there was any
difficulty seperating Mark-with-a-Bahai-hat and
Mark-with-a-sociologist-hat. He's been fairly clear on the
distinction.

Peace

Gilberto

Dear All,
Apparently I misunderstood something here. I'll back out of this
conversation now. Apologies to all, especially Mark.
Rich

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Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-05 Thread Rich Ater


As a sociologist (and also as an individual), I would consider them to be Baha'is based on 
self-definition, and I also would regard their organizations, where they exist, to be branches 
of the Baha'i Faith. (The word 'sect has a precise usage in the sociology of religion, 
and none of the organizations which call themselves Baha'i, our own included, 
would qualify for that term.)
 


Mark,
   We're not sociologists, we're Baha'is and we go by the Baha'i 
definitions of Covenent Breakers and their followers.



I would also note the views of the leaderships of the different Baha'i groups 
regarding those Baha'is who are not members of their own groups.

   I wouldn't. The Faith, not the university, is the arbiter here. The 
stance on these groups, from the standpoint of the Faith should be taken 
from the writings of the Central Figures of the Faith and the 
administration, not from Durkheim and Strauss, or whoever the pet 
theorist in sociology is these days.



That would include the fact that the Universal House of Justice restricts the 
term to those who are formally members of the organization under its 
administration.
 

   The followers are not considered covenant breakers, true, they are 
also not considered Baha'is.


Rich




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Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-05 Thread Rich Ater

Mark A. Foster wrote:

Rich,

At 09:00 PM 9/3/2005, you wrote:

Actually, that would be true. The sanctity of the confessional is inviolate. A priest
cannot reveal to anyone what he hears in confession, no matter how heinous. Priests
have gone to jail, and in some instances to their deaths for this. The US accepts
this and a priest is not compelled to reveal what he hears in confession.

Would not the fact that priests have gone to jail indicate that they were
violating confessional reporting requirements? There is some variation in these
reporting requirements. Here is a listing by U.S. state:

Mark,
It would be irrelevant. The confessional is inviolate. It has been
so since the beginning of the church. Every country or society that has
tried to change this has failed. My point was that thec hurch has never
recognized these types of laws.

Rich

Re: Self-Definition

2005-09-05 Thread Rich Ater

Mark A. Foster wrote:

Tim,

At 06:49 AM 9/4/2005, you wrote:

A person can define himself as anything, there is no way to control that. However,
that doesn't mean the rest of the world must accept that self-definition.

As a sociologist of religion, I have no alternative but to accept the
self-definitions of people. As an individual, I also do not want to judge
people. My assumption is that people are adherents of whatever religion they
claim.

You always have choices, Mark. Your's has been to define yourself as
an academic and to toe that line. Yhat's ok, but be honest with
yourself, you have chosen. Ian Semple, in a talk on obedience, discussed
the collaborater who says he had no choice but to betray others, or he
would have been killed. Semple says he could have chosen to die.

Well, they are obviously not members of the Baha'i Faith, which is an
organization with precise membership standards. IMO, that is a separate issue.

I don't believe that that's true, Mark, and your original answer was
ambiguous. I think it good to keep in mind that when non-Baha'is raise
issues on this list they are expecting Baha'i answers not sociological
answers. The Baha'i Faith is the eternal faith of God, not a
sociological organization in the sense that it is being defended and
discussed in this issues.

In grad school I wrote a paper on healthcare views in the Baha'i
Faith from a nursing and anthropological perspective and I kept that
perspective, but I didn't kid myself that it had anything to do with the
Faith from it's own perspective.

Rich

Re: Self-Definition

2005-09-05 Thread Rich Ater

Sure, but that cuts both ways. If I'm not a Bahai and have no
particular loyalty to the UHJ why would I think that the Orthodox
Bahais are not Bahais? They both believe in the Bab, Bahaullah,
Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They both read the same writings (I
think). They seem to have the same theology. What else would they be
if not Bahai?

Peace

GIlberto

Gilberto,

You would'nt. We don't agree with the above because we are Baha'is,
but it is a religious choice. The point I was trying to make before is
that if were being asked these questions, as Baha'is, we should stick to
Baha'i responses.

You're not a Baha'i so you're off the hook in a sense.
Rich

Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-03 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto Simpson wrote:

I've gotten into discussions before with Bahais where they tried to
say that the Bahai faith has never split and that its unity is
promised by the central figures and is proof of its divine origin and
at the same time, these Bahais would make a big deal about divisions
within Islam as if it were evidence for the end of the Islamic
dispensation. (BTW the tomb of Muhammad (saaws) is still there in
Medina).

Gilberto,

I guess from a Baha'i perspective we wouldn't see this as splinter
Baha'i groups, because from our point of view they stopped being Baha'is
at the moment they broke off from any point of the administrative order.
I don't mind discussing this, as a matter of fact, it could be
interesting and productive. I just want to make sure we each understand
the other's position. For Baha'is, Covenant Breakers are not sects, they
stop being Baha'is. This being said we cannot persecute them, nor
deprive them of civil rights. We are instructed to shun them in our
personal lives, but Abdul- Baha was very specific that we can in no way
interfere with there ability to earn a living or live their lives.

As to the position of some Baha'is that divisions in Islam are
evidence of the end of the Islamic dispensation. I think they show a
lack of understanding of Islam and its history. Afterall, the most
important division, the Shi'a Sunni occurred right after the Prophet's
(PBUH) passing and Islam was growing in leaps and bounds at the time. I
personally think pointing out any religions decline shows a lack of tact.

Finally, Muhammad's (PBUH) tomb is very much intact, but the Wahabi's
did destroy the cemetary of the companions.

From my perspective there are still divisions in the Bahai faith in

the sense that small groups of people have split off.

Yes, but as I said we don't consider them Baha'is anymore.

While the
divisions in Islam are a bit exagerated. (At least in my experience
Sunnis and Shias or Wahabis and Sufis can still pray together for
instance. And they still agree on things like the 5 pillars or basic
elements of the creed)

WE had a bit of a storm in Bellevue WA when the area Mosque voted to
not allow Shi'a to pray there. There is documentation of Deobandi
Muslims persecuting those of Chiste leanings, and let's not forget the
Ahmadiyya. In Sir Richard Francis Burton's Memoir of his journey to
Mecca, he discusses Wahabi tribesmen attacking Persian pilgrims because
they were Shi'a. The Wahabi are known for being anti Sufi and I have
read that Shi'a and Sufis are discriminated against in Saudi Arabia. I
bring this up not to disparage Islam. I don't think it represents Islam.
To borrow from the New Testament, Jesus warns his dicsiples that many
will claim to be his followers and he will say I never knew you.

I hope this kicks off some grist for the mill and that you are doing well.
Rich

Re: Devastating stampede

2005-09-03 Thread Rich Ater

For example if a child molestor goes to a priest and confesses his sins, the confession would be protected.

To my knowledge, in most cases that would *not* be true (at least not in the
U.S.).

Mark,
Actually, that would be true. The sanctity of the confessional is
inviolate. A priest cannot reveal to anyone what he hears in confession,
no matter how heinous. Priests have gone to jail, and in some instances
to their deaths for this. The US accepts this and a priest is not
compelled to reveal what he hears in confession.

Rich

Re: 2000 Years of suffering

2005-08-29 Thread Rich Ater







  
  
  
  
  
Dear Gilberto, Susan, Iskandar, and everyone else.
  
  
  

 I know Mark and Susan have asked that this thread be discontinued
and I'd like to honor that, But first I'd like to clear up some things
for the sake of peace.

  
  
  
  
  
  It is a little weird to mention a demographic change as if it
were relevant but then not say what the change is. I can try to guess
and imagine.
  
  
  

 The demographic change was that many of the Muslim families from
American and Middle Eastern backgrounds had left the school and there
has been an influx of Somalis. Many of them are very conservative,
among the changes they have been trying to demand of the school are
that American and European history be dropped from the curricullim, as
well as social studies and be replaced soley with the study of Muslim
history and that only Muslim cultures should be studied. Prior to the
arrival of the Somalis, Arabic was taught as a living Language, they
want only Qur'an memorization taught and do not see the need for Arabic
conversation or grammar to be taught. Because of their demands many
teachers have left the school who were more progresive. Gilberto, I
hope you know that I am not saying all Muslims are like this, Ill talk
more of that later. The point I was making is that this was to my mind
a case of some Muslims persecuting my daughter because she was a
Baha'i. The persecution started before the food stealing, which was a
result of her seeking some kind of comfort. You can excuse the kids,
if you like, but you cannot excuse the teachers and administrators.
They should have stopped it.



  
  
  
  
  I believe you. I think you describe a complicated sitatuation
and I really do appreciate you sharing it.
  
  
  

 In one sense it is complicated, but in another it is not. I grew up
in a really racist area of Chicago, when we were kids we got in fights
with people for no other reason than they were of color. We were wrong.
The adults around us did nothing to stop it, which we took as
encouragment, so many of the folks I left behind are as racist as there
parents or teachers. If one of the adults in my neighborhood had stood
up and said this is wrong what kind of change could that have rought?
The teachers should have looked out for my little girl, that was their
job, Gilberto.

  
  
  
   
  
  
  
  
  Kafir means "non-Muslim". If there is a harshness to the term,
it has more to do with the delivery than the actual meaning of what is
being said. And in electronic forums *I've* been given theologically
ominous warnings of what would happen if I didn't accept Bahaullah. And
the writings contain similar statements.
  
  
  

 That's minimizing. Please don't don't do that to youself, it
cheapens some very good points that you've made. The term Kafir in the
sense they used it denoted something ugly. They're were other incidents
too, such as some parents say astafertullah (SIC) when they passed Tara
in the hall.

  
  
  
  
  
  




  
  
  
  I'm not unwilling to look in the mirror. 
  
  
  
  

 Perhaps you are, it didn't seem so from some of the replies. Either
way it's between you and God, and He is the best of judges and the All
Merciful

  
  
  
  
  
  

and 4) I have a lot of work to do to have
my daughter understand that not all Muslims hate her.

  
  
  
  

 I'd like to leave this on a more positive note. I have been aided
in helping my daughter to understand that not all Muslims hate her, by
some wonderful Muslim friends, mainly from African American and
Pakistani beckground. They were appalled by what happened to Tara and
have said so. One even wrote a protest the school. Tara is still
reading the Qur'an at night, talks to me in Arabic (which keeps me
sharp), and loves stories of the Prophet's (PBUH) life.

  
  
  
  
  I for one, dont.
  
  
  

 I never thought for a moment that you did. The whole point that I
was trying to make was that there is persecution out there in some
circles. There are Muslims who hate Baha'is, there are Baha'is who hate
Muslims, I've met a couple and I speak right up when I hear them say
anything defamatory about Muslims, because my speaking up within my
group carries more weight than a Muslims speaking up in that
circumstance, just as a Muslims speaking up in the face of Muslim
prejudice against others whould carry more weight in Dar Al Islam. I'll
leave you with this. An Imam in South Africa was asked were God was
when the Black South Africans were being crowded into Bantustans. He
replied, "God was that small voice in the back of your mind saying,
'Why are you letting this happen?'
 Let's stop letting it happen, let's stop talking about who did what
to whom, own that some people do nasty things and start talking about
how we can change that.

  
  
  
  
WA'Alaikum Saalam,
  
  

Rich

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
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Re: 2000 Years of suffering

2005-08-28 Thread Rich Ater

Idon't know any Muslims who actually persecute Bahais I'm
not a Shia. I'm not Iranian. I have absolutely no pull with the Iranian
government. I get along pretty well with the Bahais I know
face-to-face. If you yourself haven't been persecuted by Muslims, and I
haven't persecuted any Bahais, then we should be able to talk about
this as individuals without you trying to pull "the religion card".

Gilberto,
I hope you're doing well. At this point I have to chip in. First
off. let me say that I think this is an important thread and that you
raise some issues that should be examined. If early church fathers had
spoken out against persecution of Jews, who knows where it could have
lead. Now as to persecution.
As you may remember, my daughter had been attending an Islamic
school in Seattle. We sent her there to learn Arabic and to understand
Islam, the Faith her religion sprang from. Between the time she enterd
the school for preschool and kintergarten and the time that she enterd
first grade their was a change in the demographics of the school. I
don't wish to get into the specifics of the change, but the population
of the school; the students and some of the teachers, became less
tolerant. While the administration still voiced a message of tolerance,
it was not echoed by the students. I found out about this when I
started noticing some behavior changes in my daughter. After awhile it
became intolerable for her at the school, she started to sneak into the
kitchen and take food. Iguess she was looking for some comfort. In any
event, the school principle called us in and said that she had been
caught stealing food. We were concerned and met with the principle and
her teacher to try to solve the problem. They made it clear that they
thought that she should leave the school.
When we told her she would not be returning to the school, she
didn't seen all that upset, which had me worried. Over a period of time
she started telling me about the things that had gone on. Kids would
shun her, call her kafir, and tell her she was going to hell. That may
not seem like a lot a persecution to you, but to a 6 year old it was
devastating. From what I ferreted out later, some of her teachers were
aware of this and chose to ignore it.
It has left a bitter taste in my mouth. I don't blame Islam for it,
or even most Muslims; just the ones who were there. I do note some
things however; 1) I've never seen Baha'is in a group that outnumbered
Muslims start to call them Kafir or tell them they were going to hell,
2) I can no longer say the reverse is true 3) While I think it
important to examine the questions you bring forth, I find your
unwillingness to look in the mirror disheartening, and 4) I have a lot
of work to do to have my daughter understand that not all Muslims hate
her.

Rich

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Re: Nominalism

2005-07-25 Thread Rich Ater


Susan Maneck wrote:


I am interested in trying, once again, to read the Quran, and I am
wondering what translation (into English) might be recommended by
those on this list.

I have been using the translation of Majid Kakhry, it is endorsed by Al-Azhar. 
He is also the author of works on Islamic philosophy and biographies of 
Al-Farabi and Ibn Rushd.


Rich







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Re: Anti-depressants

2005-07-03 Thread Rich Ater

David,
As someone who prescribes anti depressants I wanted to wade into
this briefly. Some people develope a depression that is so severe that
they develope psychotic features. Other people isolate, stop eating,
bathing, or even leaving there rooms. I work at a jail on weekends, we
have a women there, I feel safe talking about this as it has been all
over the news out here, who became so severely depressed that she became
psychotic and sat there while two of her young children starved to
death. An antidepressant might have saved three lives. This is an
extreme, of course, but it illustrates a point. Depression should not be
trivialized.
I agree that Antidepressants should not be handed out like candy, no
drug should, they should be used in conjunction with therapy, but they
should be used. Clinical depression does not build character, nor does
it make anyone strong. As a matter of fact it causes the body to release
catabolites which tear the body apart and wreak havoc with the immune
system.
Finally, while God does not send burdens that we cannot bear, He
does allow us to find ways to alleviate them.

Rich

David Friedman wrote:

I was just wondering what the right attitude towards anti-depressants
should be in light of the passages from the Writings which say that
hardships/suffering are a good thing. By taking anti-depressants when
depressed one is obviously making things easier for themself. If one
doesn't take anti-depressants they would have more hardship, which is
said to lead to more character development. So what to do? Let
yourself suffer? In the Writings it says that God never burdens a
soul beyond their capacity. Does this mean with or without medical
assistance?

David

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One Common Faith

2005-05-25 Thread Rich Ater


Hi everyone,

I have not been able to puruse the document by the House. Can anyone 
tell me where to obtain it.

Rich


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Re: Hey Bahai-st ;)

2005-05-23 Thread Rich Ater





MARK,

Jilla is on the list. She is a Baha'i in Spokane WA and a very nice
person to boot.
Rich

Mark A. Foster wrote:

  

  Come join my network at hi5!
  

  
  
Is this spam, or is this person on the list? Does anyone know? 

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net
"... since [a] word is said to be common, it can be 
called a universal" - William of Ockham 


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Re: Common Faith

2005-05-04 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto,
You can find it at the Vatican Web Site.
Rich

Gilberto Simpson wrote:

 On 5/4/05, Barmak Kusha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I would have to check it once I am home.
 
  W00-01   Savi, JulioThe Declaration Dominus Iesus: A Brake on
  Ecumenism and Interfaith Dialogue?

 Is the document available online to the public? If not could someone
 give a brief summary?

 I've read about the original document (Dominus Iesus) and personally
 it seemed a bit anti-ecumenical. Even Protestants were a bit upset
 with it.

 -Gilberto

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Re: happy fasting

2005-03-09 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto,
   Thanks. The Persians in the community tell me that they say May your 
fast be acceptable. The Muslims I know also say this during Ramadan.
Rich

Gilberto Simpson wrote:
I'm not sure what the standard greeting is and I realize this is late,
but happy fasting to all those who are fasting.
-Gilberto
 


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Re: Happy New Year

2005-02-18 Thread Rich Ater

Forouz,
   Sorry it took me so long to get back. I am aware of this and I 
should of wished all the Friends a joyous holiday. Eid ul miladayn mubarak!
Rich

Firouz Anaraki wrote:
Dear Rich,
1st and 2nd of Muharram are very important for Baha'is too. Birthday 
of the Bab is on 1st of Muharram and the Birthday of Baha'u'llah on 
2nd of Muharram based on lunar calendar. Baha'is in whole Middle East 
celebrate these 2 days which are accounted as one in the sight of God. 
Happy Twin Birthdays.

regards,
Firouz

Gilberto,
   Sorry this is late. Yesterday was the 1st of Muharram. Happy New 
Year!
Rich

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Re: Just governments...

2005-02-18 Thread Rich Ater





Ian,
 All duly noted. I understand the point you were trying to make now.
I would love to learn more about the individual Baha'is during the
Third Reich.
Rich

Ian Kluge wrote:

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Dear
Rich, 
  
  I,
too, remember our meeting fondly and
likewise hope that this finds you and your family well. 
  
  Let
me add as a prefatory note that Im
sure some people are wondering about why we are discussing this in such
detail
on Bahai Studies. However, I think it is important to get all this
straight to
help us understand the decisions made by Shoghi Effendi as well as the
conduct
of Bahais in the Third Reich. 
  
  Im
sorry for not communicating
clearly. Let me try and clarify what I meant to say.
  
  I
did not say, or mean to imply that the
Nazi government was not duly constituted because (a) Hitler only
got 37% of the vote in Germanys
last free election, or because of (b) Stalins 
  refusal
to have the Communists join an
anti-Nazi coalition which could have prevented Hitler from coming to
power. We
too have minority governments in Canada  indeed, have one
right now and it is quite duly constituted. (BTW, doesnt
Bush have a majority?)
  
  What
specifically makes Hitlers
government not duly constituted is the fraudulent election of
March 5, 1933. Just prior to March 5 Hitler set the Reichstag Fire
(Feb. 27,
1933 as an excuse to suppress the Social Democrats and Communists
during the
election. Moreover, he had no legitimate authority to ban all political
demonstrations
except by the Nazis or to use the SA to intimidate and arrest members
of rival
parties. Nor, of course, did he have authority to set the Reichstag
Fire (Feb. 27,
1933)! 
  
  You
write:
  
  He
already had the
government, so it was legally constituted. That the fact that he
started
breaking laws after this to shore up his power doesn't change that.
  
  
  
  Ian:
  
  Its
more complicated than that. 
  
  Hitler
took power *legally* in
January 30, 1933, but took
power *illegally* with
election he
called (Feb. 1, 1933) for March 5, 1933. 
  
  The
election itself was not duly constituted
(as shown previously) nor was the post-election Reichstag since Social
Democrats and Communists were forcibly and illegally prevented from
taking
their seats. The government was also not duly constituted because it
used
strong-arm tactics to force other smaller parties to approve giving
Hitler the Enabling
Laws. These laws existed in the Weimar Constitution but were not
legitimately obtained by Hitler. 
  
  Thus,
I think the claim that the Nazis
government after (and even starting with) the March 5, 1933 election
was not duly
constituted. 
  
  In
a variety of ways, the Nazis met the
Guardians criteria for not being duly constituted and he
acted wisely in disbanding the German NSA instead of co-operating with
them.
Defying Hitler in this way entailed considerable but unavoidable -
risk
for German Bahais.
  
  Id
be curious to know how many of the
men went into the German Wehrmacht, which was the one place a person
could be
beyond the reach of the Gestapo, the SA or the SS. 
  
  Best
wishes,
  
  
  Ian
Kluge 
  
  
  
  
  
  Thus,
under Weimar
law (and normal parliamentary practice) Hindenburg had to call on
Hitler as the
leader of the largest contingency in the Reichstag to form the
government, which
he did on January 8, 1933.
  
  He became
chancelor because the Nazi's held the
majority of seats in the Reichstag and he was the only one who could
pull it
off. You yourself said this was all legal under the Weimar Laws. 
  
  
  Hitler
them proceeded to take over *illegally.*
The Nazis set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27,
1933), blamed it on the Communists and got Hindenburg to give Hitler
emergency
governing powers with which he intimidated his political enemies.
  
  
  
  
  
  He
then had another election and got 44% (still not
50% even at this point) of the vote, used the Brown Shirts to prevent
socialists and communists who had been elected from taking their seats
and
pressured the other parties to pass the Enabling Laws that gave
him absolute dictatorial power.
  
  He already had
the government, so it was legally
constituted. That the fact that he started breaking laws after this to
shore up
his power doesn't change that.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  This
doesnt look duly elected to me. Nor just.
  
  Not to me
either, but my definition of just and duly
elected are a little diferrent. I have no love for the Nazis. Two
uncles of
mine were executed by them in Thessalonika for being in the underground
and I'm
damned proud of them. I was just commenting on the Guardians stance and
that he
disbanded the community rather than obey the dictates of a government
that fit
his criteria as legitimate if heinous.
  
I hope you and your family are doing well. I still recall our last
meeting
fondly.
  
Rich
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  __

Re: Just governments...

2005-02-12 Thread Rich Ater









  
  
  
  Hitler
was never elected Chancellor; in Germanys
last truly democratic election, he pulled 37% of the vote, which means
that 63%
of voters opted for various other parties.
  

A
government can be legally constituted with 37% or 44% of the vote if
that's a
majority. Look at us south of your border.

  
   
  
  Stalin
then ordered the Communist Party *not*
to form an anti-Nazi alliance with the
Social Democrats (together they could out vote the Nazis.).
  

So the vote got split. As much I dislike our current President I don't
claim the government is illegal because Nader split the vote.

  
   
  
  Thus,
under Weimar
law (and normal parliamentary
practice) Hindenburg had to call on Hitler as the leader of the largest
contingency in the Reichstag to form the government, which he did on
January 8,
1933.
  

He became chancelor because the Nazi's held the majority of seats in
the Reichstag and he was the only one who could pull it off. You
yourself said this was all legal under the Weimar Laws.

  
   
  
  Hitler
them proceeded to take over *illegally.*
The Nazis set the Reichstag
Fire (Feb. 27, 1933), blamed it on the Communists and got Hindenburg to
give
Hitler emergency governing powers with which he intimidated his
political
enemies.
  



  
  He
then had another election
and got 44% (still not 50% even at this point) of the vote, used the
Brown
Shirts to prevent socialists and communists who had been elected from
taking
their seats and pressured the other parties to pass the Enabling Laws
that gave him absolute dictatorial power.
  

He already had the government, so it was legally constituted. That the
fact that he started breaking laws after this to shore up his power
doesn't change that.

 





  
  This
doesnt look duly elected
to me. Nor just.
  

Not to me either, but my definition of just and duly elected are a
little diferrent. I have no love for the Nazis. Two uncles of mine were
executed by them in Thessalonika for being in the underground and I'm
damned proud of them. I was just commenting on the Guardians stance and
that he disbanded the community rather than obey the dictates of a
government that fit his criteria as legitimate if heinous.

I hope you and your family are doing well. I still recall our last
meeting fondly.

Rich

  
   
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
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Happy New Year

2005-02-12 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto,
   Sorry this is late. Yesterday was the 1st of Muharram. Happy New Year!
Rich
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Re: Just governments...

2005-02-10 Thread Rich Ater









  

With regard to obedience/disobedience to governments... there
is a "qualifier" that seems to be missing from the discussion.
That word is "just".  Obedience to JUST governments.

  
  
Hi everyone,

 Just wading in briefly. If I remember right, Shoghi Effendi defined
a just government as one legally formed under the laws of the given
country in question. A glaring example was Nazi Germany. A horror to be
sure, but duly elected under the laws of the Weimar Republic. If I
remember the story, the Gestapo demanded that they turn over the names
of Baha'is of Jewish descent. They cabled the Guardian who immediately
ordered them to disband, thus there was no Baha'i Community to comply
and no Baha'i Community throughout the Nazi Era. At least thats the
story I heard, I'd love to read a history of the Faith in Germany
during that time.

As to just standing by, we are allowed to exercise our right to protest
in countries where it is legal. We must do so as individuals and not as
representatives of the Baha'i Faith. That's the advice that National
gave to my wife and I when we asked if we could march against the WTO
in Seattle, which we did on the first day.

Rich

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Re: Past Revelations

2005-02-10 Thread Rich Ater





Susan
 WOOF! Color me embarrassed. Of course you're right and I plea
exhaustion when I wrote that. I remember reading of a North African
Scholar who declared that the tales of the Mahdi were folktales and I,
somehow, transposed this onto Ibn Khaldun. Nonetheless it is sloppy
scholarship and I apologize to everyone, especially Gilberto, who I was
addressing. Next time I'll verify my sources before shooting off my big
mouth.

Rich

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  
  In a message dated 1/7/2005 11:27:25 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  I can take something seriously, but not agree with it. Ibn
Khaldun comes to mind. A brilliant man, the Muqaddimah was sheer
genius. He was in the employ of the Ummayyads. To curry favor with them
he wrote a piece denouncing tales of the Mahdi as mere folk stories and
not Islamic. At the time the Ummayyad were going neck and neck with the
Abbasids who were really playing the eschatology card. It was in the
Umayyad's interest to down play this and Ibn Khaldun was happy to help
his patrons out. While I respect Ibn Khaldun, I don't agree with this
statement. 

  
  Uh Rich, the Muqaddimah was written in the 14th century. Both
the Abbasids and Umayyads were long gone by this time. 
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Re: A History of Islamic Philosophy

2005-02-09 Thread Rich Ater

JS,
   I think most anything by Fakhry is good. I've read his bios of 
Averoes and Ibn Faraby and find them excellent. His translation of the 
Qur'an is, to my knowledge, the first approved by AlAzhar.
Rich

JS wrote:
Inspired by Gilberto's questions, I decided to purchased 'A History of 
Islamic Philosophy' by Majid Fakhry.  Is this book any good?  It is my 
first dab into Islamic history and philosophy.

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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-25 Thread Rich Ater



 

Gilberto:
I never said Islam was the only religion that preaches finality. It
clearly teaches that Muhammad was the last prophet. Christianity does
not teach that Jesus was the last prophet. Judaism does not teach that
Moses was the last prophet.
 

   

I just don't want to overgeneralize across what the different
religions are teaching. The different religions of the world actually
teach different things. They aren't all the same. I would rather
respect the differences between them than try to paint them all with
the same brush.
Gilberto,
Fair enough. I had thought you had said that Islam was the only religion 
that treated finality. I must have misunderstood you there. I grant that 
Muslims believe that Islam teaches the Finality of Prophethood with 
Muhammad (PBUH). I believe that they are mistaken in this. I also admit 
that the Religions of the world, as they exist today do not have the 
same same social teachings. I think the spiritual teachings are pretty 
much the same. I believe it is a Naqshabandi teaching that the truth is 
a center point surrounded by a circle that is the world religions, all 
can get to that center.

In His farewell address Muhammad (PBUH) said:
O Men! We have created you all out of a male and a female , and have 
made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another.

That being said, I find that I really do aggree with you on certain 
points, particullarly the history of the J, and the really would like to 
focus on areas where we can agree and learn from each other.
Rich

 


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Re: Bahai jihad?

2005-01-25 Thread Rich Ater





Ahang,
 In Iran, yes. Iran was a very small part of the Islamic world. I'm
not saying that there was ever a time in which the Jizya was paid
nowhere in the Islamic world, only that In certain times and places, it
was suspended.
Rich 

Ahang Rabbani wrote:

  Dear Rich,

The payment of jizya continued until the time of Baha'u'llah.  I don't have
time now to get into the story of how this insidious tax was lifted by
Nasiri'd-Din Shah through the guidance of Baha'u'llah and the leg-work of
Manikji Sahib, but you might find some pieces of the info in Balyuzi's
"Baha'u'llah the King of Glory."  There is more to the role of Baha'u'llah than
it's in that book though.

Thanks, Ahang.
 
--- Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
In Gilberto's defense, I believe that Umar actually deferred the paying 
of the jizya in many instances.
Rich

Gilberto Simpson wrote:



  On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:34:27 -0800 (PST), Ahang Rabbani
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 

  
  
You ought to be kidding!  "Jizya" was a tax imposed on minority religions 
as a way to harass and contain them, and to ensure they were kept  
economically dirt poor! 
I have lived in many parts of the world with Muslim majority and in all

  

those


  
places the tyranny of Muslims towards the minority groups was most evident.
   


  
  
Gilberto:
From what I've read, the amount of jizya varied alot in Islamic
history. At some points it was large, at some points it was small and
nominal. The best explanation I've heard for it is that it literally
was protection-money in the sense that non-Muslims would be exempt
  

from jihad but they still benefitted from protection by the state so


  they gave money to compensate for it. When non-Muslims participated in
jihad they would often be exempted from the jizya. I would certainly
admit that it has the potential to be abused (virtually all rules do)
but jizya actually is ordained in the Quran, so if you really think it
is necessarily a form of harrassment and tyranny then you should take
it up with the author.

Peace

Gilberto

 

  


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Re: Bahai jihad?

2005-01-25 Thread Rich Ater



Listen, judging from the huge number of postings on this list, some of you
folks seem to have a lot of time on your hand.  I don't.  So this is my last
word on the subject.
 

Ahang,
   I'm sorry for your bad feelings towards Islam. Nonetheless it gives 
you no cause to be dismisive and insulting to the rest of us.
Rich

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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-23 Thread Rich Ater









  
G:
Fine. Then as long as you recognize that, we are done. And to keep
dwelling on it is unnecessary.


No, We're not. At least not in the sense you think. As I said in my past posting, just because Christianity allows for prophets, by their definition; not your's, does not mean that Christianity does not believe in its finality. My point was that you are wrong in your belief that Islam is the only religion that preaches finality. Just because you cling to a rather narrow definition of finality does not make your stance correct.

Rich

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Re: Arson

2005-01-23 Thread Rich Ater

IT'S TIME FOR THE GUY WHO WORKS AT A JAIL TO WEIGH IN :-). Actually, 
you're both right. In forensics we discuss the sociopathic triangle; 
fire setting, cruelty to animals, and bed wetting. All three turn up in 
many serial killers.
Rich

Susan Maneck wrote:
  It seems that sociopaths manifest their affliction first by an
inclination to burn down buildings.
Dear Janine,
I've always heard it was expressed earliest as children in torturing
animals.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Christian Rejection of Islam - was [Responding with affection. Recalling ...

2005-01-13 Thread Rich Ater









  
Are dependent Manifestations also ruled out during the 1000 years? I
seem to recall banned any new person claiming to have revelation. I
don't remember it only limiting independent manifestations.

Excellent question! We tened to bat that one around ourselves. I stand firmly in the I don't know camp, myself.

Rich

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Re: Luke 21:33 the Qur'an

2005-01-13 Thread Rich Ater


It seems to be suggesting that with God, God's speech exists in a form
beyond human language, but when God reveals that word to a particular
culture it comes out with particular sounds and letters in the form of
the scriptures we are familiar with.
Which to me suggest that on some level the Torah is the Gospel is the Quran etc.
 

This is a concept that I heard discussed several years ago in a study of The 
Epistle to the Son of the Wolf. I tend to believe it. It's interesting that it 
has made the rounds.
Rich
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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-13 Thread Rich Ater







Gilberto Simpson wrote:

  Dear Rich,

So we were talking about whether the Bahais are taking the Quran and
other sources seriously. You had said that one can take something
seriously while still disagreeing with it.

 Yes. I can respect scholarship, but not necessarily agree with the
conclusion, for example, one of favorite theologians is Abraham Heschl.
I love his take on the meeting ground between God and Man, but I don't
agree with his take on the lesser prophets just as social
revolutionaries. I think they're more than that.

  
Gilberto:
Fair enough. What sort of thing would you find convincing? Or
conversely, what is that convinces you that it isn't true?

 I don't think there is something I would find convincing. I cannot
believe that God would ever stop communicating with us through Wahy.
This doesn't mean that I think he has stopped sending saints or perfect
men, but I don't think their teachings have the same force as
revelation. I guess, from my standpoint the saints and perfect men and
scholars of the world push us along and keep us afloat between
revelations, but not replace it. My study of Islam fills me respect for
it, but I also find its logical conclusion in the Baha'i Faith. Mind
you, this is my belief, I don't expect you to, or even care if, you buy
into it. 

  


  
  
[So I'm not certain of how you were using Ibn Khaldun here. I thought
  you were suggesting that he was an example of someone whom you take
seriously. You respect his stature and importance. While at the same
time you disagree with some of the things he said]

Yes, His works on historical theory are first rate. His fluff peice on
the Mahdi was beneath him.

  


 
  

Because what it means to take an academic scholar "seriously" is not
as invovled as taking a Manifestation of God "seriously".

 I agree with this, but weren't we trying to decide, based on
scholars whether or not it was possible for somone to make a claim of
prophethood?

  

  
  
I don't hav a vested interest in wanting to believe Muhammad is the
last prophet or believing that he wasn't. I'm just trying to
understand the Quran and Islam
  

 Well, I think you do, but that's not the point I was making. I'm
saying a lot of the sources you use are interpreted a certain way
because the folks interpreting them have a vested interested in
interpreting them that way. I'm kind of cynical about these things. I
believe everyone has vested interests. I think that's ok as long as
they're honest about it.

  


It is easier to argue that Bahais have a vested interest in
interpreting the Quran in a certain way.

  

 Easy? It's childsplay! Of course we have a vested interested in
interpreting the Qur'an a certain way. I just, also believe as an
article of faith, that our interpretation is closer to the truth..
Also, from my belief system it is more logically consistent. I am
willing to concede that from your's it is not.

  


  
  
 
  
  
  
At least in terms of the arguments I've been making on the finality of


  
prophethood in Islam, the argument isn't just that there are one or
two pretty smart Muslims who say that prophethood is over. There is a
strong consensus based on repeated texts in the Quran and hadith.
  

 I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that I don't agree with the whole
array of arguments for finality. They're are based on one verse from
the Qur'an that is ambiguous and a series of Hadiths that would be
thrown out of a law court as hearsay evidence. If you choose to believe
them as an article of faith, then God bless you. I'll respect that and
we can go from there, but do not expect to accept them.

  


Christianity and Judaism don't claim finality in the same clear
decisive way that Islam does.
  

 I won't speak for Judaism as I've exhausted my knowledge here, but
as someone who spent years having Catholic theology and eschatlogy
beaten into by skull by the archdicese of Chicago and the good sisters
of St Joseph, I can tell yopu that Christianity sure as shooten
believes its final. The church teaches that when Christ returns it will
be literal and the world will end, literally. This is also doctrine in
Eastern Orthodoxy, I'm Greek and, while I grew up Catholic, have
Orthodox family members, even a priest. As to protestants, you discuss
this with a baptist and see how far you get :-). If you look at the
Vatican teachings on world religions you'll find that while the Church
teaches respect for Islam, at least now, it states firmly that as
Catholics one cannot accept the prophethood of Muhammad (PBUH).

  




  
  
  
That's not very
convincing to me because Judaism and Christianity have
plenty of explicit
statements discussing revelation and prophets
coming after their founders appeared. Islam is different.
  

Neither discusses prophets in the sense of Jesus or Muhammad. The
prophets mentioned in the new testament were church members, who under
the influence of the Holy Spirit, could

Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-11 Thread Rich Ater







  Gilberto:
In general sure. In this case it's different.

Gilberto,
 This, I guess, is none of those areas where we part company. To me
it is no different. I understand that it is to you. You consider Islam
the last revelation, period. I consider Islam another stop on the path
of progressive revelation. To me, and I don't mean this sound
disrespectful, you have no basis for this statement that I find
convincing, nor have you come up with one in any of your other
postings. That's OK, as we said in the beginning, this is about
dialogue and not conversion. So, it's good to know where we're not
going to agree.


  

Rich:
Ibn Khaldun comes to mind.
  
  
A brilliant man, the Muqaddimah was sheer genius. He was in the employ of
the Ummayyads. To curry favor with them he wrote a piece denouncing tales of
the Mahdi as mere folk stories and not Islamic. At the time the Ummayyad
were going neck and neck with the Abbasids who were really playing the
eschatology card. It was in the Umayyad's interest to down play this and Ibn
Khaldun was happy to help his patrons out. While I respect Ibn Khaldun, I
don't agree with this statement. 

  
  
Gilberto:
But as far as I know the Bahai faith doesn't teach that Ibn Khaldun
was  a Manifestation of God or an Infallible interpreter.

 Of course not, I don't see your point here. My point is that, here
is a man, like a lot of other men, with a vested interest in ignoring
certain aspects of Islam. I don't see much difference in him, in this
case, and any other Muslim who says this is it, no more revelation. I
just don't buy it. 

  


  
  
That being said, Judah Ha Levi wrote a book called the kazari in which
he argues that Christianity and Islam are pale comparasons to Judaism and
that Moses was the last prophet should I take his text seriously. He's
considered one of Judaism's best and brightest. How about Aquinas, no
slouch, pretty convincing evidence for the finality of Christ's revelation
and the continuing of guidence through church tradition. He said no freedom
for error. Do I condemn Islam because of him. The Summa was brilliant, he
was a genius. 
My point is that every religion, so far has had writers showing
convincing proofs that prophethood and revelation ended with thier
revelation and have used scripture to proove it. If you look at that whole
record the proof for finality tends to dwindle.

  
  
That's not very convincing to me because Judaism and Christianity have
plenty of explicit statements discussing revelation and prophets
coming after their founders appeared. Islam is different.
  

 Forgive me, are you being deliberately obtuse? People have been
showing you verses from the Qur'an that they believe show that other
revelations will come after Muhammad, likewise with Hadith, but you
have a different interpretation of these verses. That's OK. The Jews
and Christians have different interpretations for the verses you are
obliquely referring to. Once again, that's OK. Where I disagree with
you here, other than theologically of course:-), is that I believe our
interpretation of the future of Wahy is just as reasonable as your
disbelief and, to be honest, I find some of your responses to these
points to be disrespectful of other's beliefs. I don't appreciate being
told that I am deliberately ignoring something, because I don't accept
your interpretation or agree with certain other statements made by you
or others.

Rich

  

  


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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto,
   I don't know he seems to be telling us what we believe. Anyway, I'm 
refering to my understanding of Sunni beliefs, not which ones I think 
Gilberto subscribes to.
Rich

Susan Maneck wrote:
And then on top of that, Sunnis (especially Sufis) still see Ali as a
spiritual successor to the prophet.
No you don't.
Dear Rich,
Isn't it a tad presumptious of us to tell Gilberto what he does or doesn't
believe?
warmest, Susan

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater









  
  
  
  
Gilberto:
That is interesting. I've actually heard the opposite view. There is a
saying: "Difference of opinion among the scholars is a mercy". I think
the idea is that the diversity allows for a certain amount of
flexibility. I don't have the exact quote but I think Seyyid Hussein
Nasr actually argues that even the sunni shia split is a mercy because
it allows for people of different emotional/ethnic temperments to find
a home in Islam.


 That's an interesting stance. I need to mull it over a little. Even
so, the majority of Muskims have not always been kind to their
minorities and it's hard to see how they thought of it as a blessing.

  

  
  
The fact is that the Shi'a have always been a minority, and often a despised
minority, as a perusal of Ibn Taymiyyah will illustrate.

  
  
Sure. At times they've been despised by certain sectors of the ummah.
But Ibn Taymiya in his own day was imprisoned as a heretic for some of
his beliefs. I don't say that to condemn or dismiss him, I'm just
saying  I don't think you can take him as necessarily representative
of what the majority of Muslims have believed for the majority of
Islamic history.

 Yes, Ibn Taymiyya spent quite a bit of time in prison, tact and
political expedience were not among his strengths. It's strange, but as
much as I disagree with his viewpoint, I like him. I do think, however,
that he is representative of a growing number of Muslims who espouse a
more Islamist viewpoint. (I use this word guardedly, it really isn't
fitting, but I can't thing of another). I agree with you. however,
about it not expressing the majority view throughout history. If you
get a chance read Birds without Wings by Louis De Berniere, it is one
example in novel form of Muslims and Christians living together.

  

Gilberto:
  
  
And then on top of that, Sunnis (especially Sufis) still see Ali as
a spiritual successor to the prophet.

  
  
Rich:
  
  
No you don't. The Sunni see Ali as a
temporal successor, one of the four rightly guided Khalifs, even the Sufis
don't see him as infallable. 

  
  
If you are talking about politics then he was a temporal successor. If
you are talking about spirituality, the overwhelming majority of Sufi
orders (tariqats) in their silsilas (chains of initiation, spiritual
family trees) go from Muhammad through Ali, and not Abu Bakr.

 Granted, but you didn't answer the question about infallability.
I'll ask you directly. Do you, as a Sunni, believe that Ali ibn Abi
Talib, was the infallable successor of the Prophet. That his decrees
and interpretations are infallable as our the 11 Imams who succeeded
him? Do you think that Sunni Sufis see him as infallabe?

  

In SUNNI hadith collections, Muhammad says: "I am the city of
knowledge and Ali is the gate".

 Wonderful, this Hadith IMHO points to Ali being Muhammad's true
successor.

  

  
  
By the way, there seems to be a decidely
anti-Sufi feeling in many Sunni circles these days. I refer to the Deobandi
and Wahabi outlooks.

  
  
I think the situation is complicated. Deobandi is kind of a tricky
term because its basically the name of a city with a certain seminary.
So you could start to talk about the perspectives of the founders of
the school, and then the various administrators, and then the various
teachers or famous scholars produced there, and then it gets hard to
formulate a precise ideology or belief system.

 I agree about the complexity of these issues, I should have said
certain factions of Deobandi, and defined what I meant by Deobandi. I
am referring to the Madrassahs that gave birth to the Taliban movement.

  

But in general, that books which I've read which come out of the
"Deobandi" circles are actually pretty explicitly and uniformly
supportive of Sufism. Tablighi Jamaat which is probably the Muslim
world's largest mass movement (their annual convention gets a higher
attendance of Muslims than the hajj) comes out of the Deobandi
perspective and they are certainly infavor of Sufism.

 So do the Taliban and they are decidedly anti-Sufi.

  

I think you are right about Wahabis though. But I don't think they
represent the majority or the mainstream of Muslims in the world.

 They may rapidly be gaining. Saudi money has inundated the world of
Islam and with it a strong Wahabi influence. For example, look at Islam
in Pakistan, Indonesia, and Afghanistan. The Islam in these areas has
always been tolerant, Sufi movements were the backbone of Afghani and
Indian Islam. The Urdu poets were bastions of mysticism and tolerance.
My readings and discussions with Muslim friends lead me to believe that
this is changing. I am not without hope. My daughters school is by and
large very tolerant, all of the staff are and they are open to dislogue
about Islam and Baha'i. I have had a couple of parents walk by me
uttering A'udu beRabb ul Fallaq, but you can't have everything.

  


  
  

Rich:
  
  
Interesting thought, so there

Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater









  
Ok, other than gender (which I would momentarily exclude only because
I've had that argument several times before and I just want to think
about something else) what would be a concrete example of how we need
more revelation due to human imperfection? I guess what would be an
ideal or principle which is "missing" from one religion, but present
in a later one. Or some other kind of example which would show the
need for *progressive* revelation.
  

Back in thge early 1800s someone suggested that we close the patent
office because everything had already been invented. It was short
sighted. I don't believe that we will ever know everything, it's one of
humanity's limitations. This being the case there will always be need
of new teachers and new laqws to fit the times we live in. I guess for
me, I see Islams legal code as being spent in this time. I also see us
as being able to understand more and in deeper ways than we could in
the past..

  

  
  
As we continue to grow and are able to accept
more, revelation continues. The Muslim concept that revelation ended with
Muhammad (PBUH) and that now God has to find other ways to  
communicate with us ties the hand of God.

  
  

  
  
I don't think anyone is saying that the end of prophethood is
logically necessary.

 Fair enough. The Bab and Baha'u'llah are prophets who came after
Muhammad, since the end of prophethood is not logically necessary I see
no reason to believe it has ended.

  

Rich
  


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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater





Susan,
 That's true. Even Ibn Tamiyyah had no trouble with Sufism in the
since. His objection, I believe; and Ghazali's too, was to the Wahad ul
Wajud type of belifs that had developed in some scools.
Rich

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  In
a message dated 1/4/2005 5:35:55 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
But in general, that books which I've read which come out of the
"Deobandi" circles are actually pretty explicitly and uniformly
supportive of Sufism. Tablighi Jamaat which is probably the Muslim
world's largest mass movement (their annual convention gets a higher
attendance of Muslims than the hajj) comes out of the Deobandi
perspective and they are certainly infavor of Sufism.
  Dear
Rich and Gilberto, 
  
  I
think it depends on what kind of Sufism you are talking about. The
Deobandi school opposed the kinds Sufism which had built bridges with
Hinduism and created the kind of universalism that typified Mughal
India. But orders like Naqshabandi they had no problem with. 
  
  warmest,
Susan 
  
  
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Re: God's Hand [Q: 5:64], God's Mashiyyat [Will Q:13:39] and two commentaries by the Imam Ja'far S.aadiq [PBUH]

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto,
   God can send whatever He likes. Including prophets. Yes he sent 
aints and others as well. Many Saints came to Christianity during the 
time before Islam, this does not mean that God did not send a Prophet 
after them. In the future I believe other Saints and Holy people will 
arrise, so will other Prophets. Abdul-Baha was, to Baha'is, a perfect 
man. This does not mean a new prophet will not arrise in time. One does 
not have to reject Saints to accept prophets. I stll read the writings 
of Teresa of Avila and St Francis of Assisi's Canticle to the Sun still 
moves me. To me both were Saints and neither negated Muhammad, the Bab, 
or Baha'u'llah.
Rich

Gilberto Simpson wrote:
According to Bahais, the Bab and Bahaullah are prophets, but Muslims
say that prophethood ended with Muhammad. So Bahais then accuse
Muslims of tying up God's hands
According to many Muslims, even after Muhammad, God continued to send
awliyas (saints), mujadids (revivers/reformers), qutubs (poles), insan
al-kamil (perfect men) and other kinds of holy figures after Muhammad,
and presumably after 1844. Are these figures accepted by Bahais?
(note, these figures would presumably be orthodox Muslims and would
understand the seal of the prophets in the traditional way) Isn't
this another form of rejecting people sent by God?
Peace
Gilberto
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Re: God's Hand [Q: 5:64], God's Mashiyyat [Will Q:13:39] and two commentaries by the Imam Ja'far S.aadiq [PBUH]

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater

Thank you, Khazeh. Indeed food for thought.
Rich
Khazeh Fananapazir wrote:
I cannot access my own computer for a few days more but I thought I could
send this
In direct relation as to what the Imam Jafar S.aadiq has sated re the
Meaning of the Sura 5:64 [re the Hand being Fettered/Chained/Tied up] this
servant  thought every one would be interested in what exactly that exalted
Imam [respected and revered by all Islam has written on the interpretation
of 5:64].
His Utterance is quoted in two books of Hadith Compilations
1] By Mulla Muh.sin Fayz. Kashani
2] And one of the earliest Tafsir books compiled by Ali ibn Ibrahim
[al-Qummi], read throughout the East.
The Imam Jafar S.aadiq said: 
They [the Jews and others who did not accept the Prophethood of Muh.ammad]
***lam yanuu innahu haakadha, that is, They did not say the Hands are
literally tied up ***wa laakinnahum*** [=but rather] qaaluu qad faragha
min al-Amr fa laa yazeedu

=Rather they said God has finished up the Amr [Revelation/Command] and that
He [God] will not add any more Revelation. 
***A lam tasma qawlahu yamh.ullah maa yashaa***
=Have you not heard the Word which says
And then the Imam S.aadiq quoted this further verse. [13:39]
In other words: Have they not heard this verse: 13:39
013.039 
YUSUFALI: God doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the
Mother of the Book. 
PICKTHAL: God effaceth what He will, and establisheth (what He will), and
with Him is the source of ordinance. 
SHAKIR: God makes to pass away and establishes what He pleases, and with Him
is the basis of the Book.

The other utterance of the Imam Jafar S.aadiq is here [and I offer for
every ones  benefit of some of the Imams Utterance in the original so that
my friends will see I am not translating unfairly]
**Qaala qaaluu ***[He [the Imam said] that they [the deniers] said:
***Qad faragha min al-Amr*** [God has finished up His Amr, given up the Amr
[Revelatory Process, the Command which comes down from the World of Amr in
each Dispensation]
Amr is the important term mentioned in Sura 32:5 [mentioning the Amr and the
Thousand Years]
***Qad faragha min al-Amr wa laa yuh.dithu Allah ghayrahu ***
That is
God has finished up His Amr and will not raise up another Amr [**ghayrahu**
means other than their Amr or their understanding of Amr] 

***Bal yazeedu wa yanqus.u*** [Rather He [God] can add further or take away 
***Wa la hu al Mashiyyatu *** for With Him is the Will.
s.adaqa al Imam S.aadiq
The Imam S.adiq has spoken the truth

With very warm regards
Dedicated to Rich Ater, Gilberto Simpson, Richard Gravelly, John Smith, and
all others

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Re: God's Hand [Q: 5:64], God's Mashiyyat [Will Q:13:39] and two commentaries by the Imam Ja'far S.aadiq [PBUH]

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater



I agree. I didn't mean to say that sending saints rules out sending
prophets. I think numerous Islamic texts, both from sunnis and shites
rules out sending more prophets. The reason why I have been mentioning
sainthood (in part) is to show that Muslims still believe in
continuing presence of guides and examplars (even if they aren't
prophets).
Gilberto,
   I see. I can only agree with this. I don't think, and this is 
strictly personal belief, that we can look at Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, or 
Mother Theresa and not believe that communication comes down from God in 
various ways and by various means. I guess where our roads diverge is on 
the issue of wahy and nabuwwa. Although, and Khazeh or Susan correct me 
if I'm wrong, I believe Baha'u'llah refers to Muhammad as Khatem 
ar-rasuleen in the Tajaliyyat, and that neither He nor the Bab ever 
refer to themselves as Nabi or Rasul, but rather as Mazhar.
Rich

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto:

I don't think that among sunnis there is a consensus that ANYONE after
the prophet was infallible. Not even Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman. So I
think that asking about infallibility is the wrong question because
that doesn't allow any difference between Abu Bakr and Ali (from the
sunni perspective)

This is my point about a fundamental diference between Shi'a and
Sunni. The Shi'a do consider Ali infallable. The Sunni don't. They
don't consider any of the Rightly Guided Caliphs Infallable. As you say
the Sunni do not make a distinction between any of the four. The Shi'a,
however, do. They consider the first three usurpers and Ali divinely
guided and infallable. I was asking about infallability to make this
distinction.

In SUNNI hadith collections, Muhammad says: "I am the city of
knowledge and

Ali is the gate".

Rich:

Wonderful, this Hadith IMHO points to Ali being
Muhammad's true successor.

I don't know why there would need to be one kind of successor. I think
it is totally reasonable to say that after the prophet passed, it was
totally appropriate for Abu Bakr to be in charge of the secular
government but that Ali had a particular spiritual station. I think
even the Zaydi Muslims (Shia) say something like this.

Of course you do and I respect that, but the Shi'a and I disagree.
The twelvers do not think Abu Bakr had a right to take control, at
least not from what I've read

Gilberto:
Actually, the Taliban were quite sympathetic to some forms of Sufism.
According to one article Mulla Omar was actually a Naqshbanidi.

This goes against what I've read, particularly Ahmad Rashid. As was
mentioned in a post fron Susan earlier, though, I may be talking at
cross purposes here. My understanding is that the Deobandi are oppossed
to the Chistiyya movements and to anything that smacks of Wahad
ul-Wajud.

http://www.rferl.org/features/2002/02/01022002104035.asp

What I would call the intellectual geogrpahy of Islam can at times get
quite complex. Culture gets mixed up with theology and politics and
labels get thrown around without real understanding and sometimes its
hard to see certain things clearly. IMHO a big factor in what made the
Taliban "the Taliban" was the fact that the Afghans had just gotten
out of a civil war and these soldiers guided by Pushtun culture gained
control of the government.

There is truth in that. I would say the same thing is true of
Wahabiyya. It has more of Najdi culture in it than it likes to admit.

Actually a long time ago, a hypothetical scenario came to mind in a
different context. Suppose the United States got invaded by a foreign
power and was occupied for an extended period of time. Then after a
long military struggle the occupier left and it was time to rebuild
the country. Who would be in charge? Who would be running the country?
Would it be progressives and intellectuals? Would it be the teachers
and social service workers? Probably not. The people in charge would
be the NRA Christian milita types. That would be the demographic of
the those in charge. No? And if they got together and formed a
government would it be fair to say they were representative of
Christianity?

I didn't say the Taliban was representative of Islam. I said
Wahabiyya was representative of a growing trend in Islam due to an
inundation of Saudi money. As I said in an earlier post it is up to
Muslims to answer this and I don't hear many of them doing so.

So do the Taliban and they are decidedly anti-Sufi.

Again, no they weren't. Mulla Omar was a Nashbandi. They were against
the Chistiya because they used music but didn't seem to be opposed to
the others.

You said one article said he was, so maybe, but the Taliban didn't
show much inclination to allow for diversity within the Ummah, so I
remain doubtful.

Gilberto:
I think you are right about Wahabis though. But I don't think

they

represent the majority or the mainstream of Muslims in the world.

Rich:

They may rapidly be gaining. Saudi money has inundated the world of Islam and with it a strong Wahabi influence. For example, look at Islam in Pakistan, Indonesia, and Afghanistan. The Islam in these areas has always
been tolerant, Sufi movements were the backbone of Afghani and Indian Islam.

Gilberto:
I think its a long struggle back and forth. Historically, Sufis have
been really successful in terms of bringing in new converts.

Yes and I have huge respect for the Naqshibandi. I'm unfamiliar
with the other Tariqa that you mentioned.

And in terms of Wahabism, I'm guessing but I would say that especially
since they claim to be Sunni they hopefully won't lead to a Luther
like break and might just inspire a healthy counter-reformation type
process and then fade. One can only hope.

I worry about any group that believes that they can return to a
pristine purity like this. That would also

Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater



I've read that Ibn Taymiyyah was a Qadri. At the very least he had a
great deal of respect for Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani and called him my
shaykh and refrained from criticizing him.
 

Gilberto,
   That's true. I just finished his Kitab ul Iman and Introduction to 
Tafsir as well his treatises against the Greek Logicians and a 
commentary on his political thought. This was mentioned in three of 
these books.
Rich

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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-07 Thread Rich Ater

I don't believe that we will ever know everything, it's one of humanity's limitations. This being the case there will always be need of new
teachers and new laqws to fit the times we live in. I guess for me, I see
Islams legal code as being spent in this time. I also see us as being able
to understand more and in deeper ways than we could in the past..

Gilberto:
But specifically how?

It varies from age to age. I wish I could give you a simple answer,
but I can't.

[...]

As we continue to grow and are able to accept
more, revelation continues.

But what I'm wondering about is if there is something genuinely new
that can't be attained through Islam? Why not just try to be a
deepened Muslim?

Maybe you can, whom I to say. I just know that I can't. I really
have looked at Islam deeply, Gilberto, and it only takes me so far. If
you takes you farther hamdu'lilah.

Gilberto:
I really think that we should let the matter drop.

Yes it's been beaten to death. Consider it dropped.

Gilberto:

I don't think anyone is saying that the end of prophethood is

logically

necessary.

Rich:
Fair enough. The Bab and Baha'u'llah are prophets who came

after Muhammad, since the end of prophethood is not logically necessary I
see no reason to believe it has ended.

Gilberto:
It's not logically necessary but various Islamic texts inform us that
Muhammad was the final prophet. If I accept Muhammad and the Quran and
even if I throw out every other hadith, I still have convincing
evidence which leads to the conclusion that Muhammad was the last
prophet.

In my opinion to believe otherwise means you aren't really taking the
texts or the record seriously.

I can take something seriously, but not agree with it. Ibn Khaldun
comes to mind. A brilliant man, the Muqaddimah was sheer genius. He was
in the employ of the Ummayyads. To curry favor with them he wrote a
piece denouncing tales of the Mahdi as mere folk stories and not
Islamic. At the time the Ummayyad were going neck and neck with the
Abbasids who were really playing the eschatology card. It was in the
Umayyad's interest to down play this and Ibn Khaldun was happy to help
his patrons out. While I respect Ibn Khaldun, I don't agree with this
statement.
That being said, Judah Ha Levi wrote a book called the kazari in
which he argues that Christianity and Islam are pale comparasons to
Judaism and that Moses was the last prophet should I take his text
seriously. He's considered one of Judaism's best and brightest. How
about Aquinas, no slouch, pretty convincing evidence for the finality
of Christ's revelation and the continuing of guidence through church
tradition. He said no freedom for error. Do I condemn Islam because of
him. The Summa was brilliant, he was a genius.
My point is that every religion, so far has had writers showing
convincing proofs that prophethood and revelation ended with thier
revelation and have used scripture to proove it. If you look at that
whole record the proof for finality tends to dwindle.

Rich

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Re: Past Revelations

2005-01-04 Thread Rich Ater









  

Gilberto:
  
  
 I see your point and would tend to agree with you in
mundane examples
but when you are talking about divine revelation I think
you start to run into problems.

  
  
Rich:
 How so?

Gilberto:
In the mundane case it is easier to deal with the idea that nothing is
perfect so its not a big deal for it to be improved upon later. Like a
sports record... there is always going to be someone else later who
will run faster, be stronger, jump higher, farther, etc. But thinking
of God in that way comes out very much like faint praise. It tends to
accuse God of limitation and imperfection.

Gilberto,

 Sorry for taking so long to respond, it has been a very busy week.
I see your point, however, it is not God's perfection that is in
question nor His limitations; He has none. It is humanity's that are
the issue in Baha'i theology. The need for continuous revelation is due
to the human race's imperfection and limitations. As we continue to
grow and are able to accept more, revelation continues. The Muslim
concept that revelation ended with Muhammad (PBUH) and that now God has
to find other ways to communicate with us ties the hand of God. God
created us logical and inteligent, I cannot see the logic in ending
revelation in 10 AH anymore than I can see the logic of ending it in 33
AD

Rich

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2005-01-04 Thread Rich Ater

Rich:

I think you're skirting the issue here. Sunni's do not believe that the
12 Imams were infallible in there interpretation of the Qur'an or that their
rulings are infallible. Sunnis do not believe that the 12 Imams were the
temporal AND spriritual head of the Ummah. I know you don't cheer the
Ummayad, but the majority of Muslims did not follow Hussayn to Karbilah,
they recognized the leadership of Mu'awiyyah.

Gilberto:
I think there are a couple of levels of this which were starting to
get blurred. You said that if Ali had been accepted, Islam might have
continued as a valid religion. Right? And I would say that if you
start with the Bahai perspective, that Shia Islam strongly preserves
the teachings of the religion of Islam.

I see your point, but I'm not saying that another revelation would not
have come. I'm saying if ALL of Islam had accepted Ali, as the
infallable Imam, and accepted the other 11 Imams after him, then the
change of revelations would have been seemless. I am also saying that
had this occurred the spread of Islam would have been even greater than
it was. The fact is that the Shi'a have always been a minority, and
often a despised minority, as a perusal of Ibn Taymiyyah will
illustrate.

And then on top of that, Sunnis (especially Sufis) still see Ali as a
spiritual successor to the prophet.

No you don't. The Sunni see Ali as a temporal successor, one of the
four rightly guided Khalifs, even the Sufis don't see him as
infallable. By the way, there seems to be a decidely anti-Sufi feeling
in many Sunni circles these days. I refer to the Deobandi and Wahabi
outlooks.

But the sunni and shiite theology is there.

I disagree that the theology is still there.

Rich:
So what, so is the Nicean

creed, does it negate Islam?

Gilberto:
I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authentic
Christianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten by lions or
never left the catecombs. There are some Jewish Christian (like
Ebionites) groups with docetic tendancies which from a Muslim
perspective seem a likelier candidate for representing the true
followers of Jesus.

Interesting thought, so there were few Christians left at the
advent of Muhammad (PBUH)? As to the Nicean creed there is as much
argument for it being Divinely inspired as there is for current fiqh
and sharia.

Remember the original

question was your claim that if the majority had

accepted Ali that

Islam might have become universal. EVen from the Bahai

perspective

where Shiism was the correct view, then shiism still exists and

the

writings and teachings are still there and in place.

Rich:
Once again, skirting

the issue. The shi'a believe that the 12th Imam went into occulatation, we
believe he came out of occultation, ie the Bab and Heralded the Return of
Christ ie Baha'u'llah. That is Shi'a theology fulfilled to us.

Gilberto:
I'm not sure what you mean by skirting the issue. So what would have
been different if the majority had accepted Ali?

What I mean by skirting the issue is that the majority of Muslims do not accept the Shi'a stance, even if it is still there. That was my point.

Rich

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Re: Past Revelations

2004-12-27 Thread Rich Ater





Gilberto,
 Not true. If I praise the grandeur of Rome it does not mean that I
think we should remain ruled by emperors or that if I say that Rome's
time has passed and modern democracy is an improvement that I have
ceased to admire Rome.
Rich

Gilberto Simpson wrote:

  On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 06:38:01 -, Brent Poirier
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
The Baha'i Writings are filled with praise of the previous 
Revelations sent down by God.  Similarly, the Writings of all  of the Prophets praise the Revelations that preceded Them.

  
   
  
  
At the same time, a Revelation is sent for a specific 
season.  When that season is finished, the force of the 
Revelation is spent.

  
  
I think that for a lot of people, if you say that their religion is
finished and its force is spent, that would tend to contraadict and
overwhelm the claim that you are praising those revelations.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2004-12-27 Thread Rich Ater



But what does that mean exactly? What would be missing? Because the
Shia recognize Ali as the imam. They have Nahjul-Balagha the book of
Ali's letters and sermons, the hadith, the other writings of the
imams. And Even most of the sunni Sufi orders trace their lineage
through Ali (rather than Abu Bakr) so in a very concrete sense, his
spiritual successorship to the prophet is actually recognized even by
sunnis in some respects. Isn't the message there? Why would another
revelation be needed?
But The Sunnis do not recognize the other 11 Imams that came after Ali, nor do 
they wait for the return of the 12th Imam as do the Shi'a. It is more than just 
the recognition of Ali ibn Abi Talib as another temporal Caliph that seperate 
the Sunni from the Shi'a, there is a whole theology involved.
Rich
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Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-27 Thread Rich Ater









  
Gilberto:
Ok, occasionally whole villages get wiped out in modern times as well.
But then I'm a little lost or confused in terms of what you are
saying.

It seems like you are changing the focus and emphasizing the question
of whether or not massacres and genocides occured in the past. I agree
with you that they did but the question is whether or not God approved
them. And at least in my mind it was connected to the discussion of
Progressive revelation and Biblical corruption.

I see your point. I was a little confused on the main point, but I
agree I switched the focus. It was unintentional.

  



And there is actually many other passages of the Bible which reiterate
variations of these genocidal commandments. And if you read the book
of Joshua you would see how these commandments were implemented by the
armies of the children of Israel when they started to take over the
"promised" land.

Personally, I have a really hard time believing that God would ever
inspire anyone
to do that. So in terms of Biblical corruption, I think the above is
an example of text which is in the Biblical Penteteuch but probably
wasn't in the Torah revealed to Moses.

I am familiar with these Biblical verses and I agree with you. My take
is that massacres happened and the biblical version of revisionist
historians tried to justify them, but I agree with you.

  




So the Quran the children of Israel are told to enter the city with
forgiveness and humility, but the commandment was changed.

I was fasmiliar with these verses as well and have used them in talks.
By the way, have you had a chance to peruse Majid Fakry's translation
of the Qur'an it was approved by Al-Azhar and is really very good.

  

In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any
way, then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from
God, and then you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain
such behavior through progressive revelation.

But if you do apply certain minimal moral standards to the children of
Israel then their behavior was unacceptable and couldn't have
originated with God, and so those commandments in the Old TEstament
must have had some other source.

There are a lot of issues in these last paragraphs, all worth
discussing, but for brevities sake I'll leave at an agreement about
corruption in the sense that you mean it. I do, however, believe that
the coruuption in this case does not prevent the believer from gleaning
the true word of God. So I guess that what I'm saying is that I believe
that the entirety of the Torah and Gospel are imbedded in the Bible,
but that everything in the Bible is not necessarily the true Torah and
Gospel.

  Rich


  


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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2004-12-27 Thread Rich Ater









  

It depends on what you mean by recognize. Even from a Sunni
perspective, Sunnis are supposed to have love for ahl al-bayt. (The
family of Muhammad). So Ali, Hassan, and Hussein, are still beloved
companions who were close to the prophet. Subsequent imams were either
followers or followers of the followers. Being sunni doesn't imply
cheering everything the umayads did and hating the descendents of the
prophet. Far from it.

Gilberto,
 I think you're skirting the issue here. Sunni's do not believe that
the 12 Imams were infallible in there interpretation of the Qur'an or
that their rulings are infallible. Sunnis do not believe that the 12
Imams were the temporal AND spriritual head of the Ummah. I know you
don't cheer the Ummayad, but the majority of Muslims did not follow
Hussayn to Karbilah, they recognized the leadership of Mu'awiyyah. 

  



But the sunni and shiite theology is there.

So what, so is the Nicean creed, does it negate Islam?

  Remember the original
question was your claim that if the majority had accepted Ali that
Islam might have become universal. EVen from the Bahai perspective
where Shiism was the correct view, then shiism still exists and the
writings and teachings are still there and in place.

Once again, skirting the issue. The shi'a believe that the 12th Imam
went into occulatation, we believe he came out of occultation, ie the
Bab and Heralded the Return of Christ ie Baha'u'llah. That is Shi'a
theology fulfilled to us. Judaism believes that a messiah will come,
Jesus came, the Injil and Qur'an both affirm that Jesus was the
Messiah, yet Jewish theology remains. As Baha'is we believe that
Baha'u'llah was the fulfilment of these prohecies, that doesn't mean
that the theologies bfore Him just disappear. 
Rich

  

Peace

Gilberto

  
  

  -- 
  

  
  

"My people are hydroponic"

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Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-26 Thread Rich Ater









  
  
  
  
G
  
  
  
I don't have
trouble with believing that these events may have occurred, considering the
times.

  
  
Gilberto:
I don't know what "considering the times" means. I'm not sure how the
passing of time could by itself change the moral status of genocide.
If you admit that there are extreme circumstances where genocide is
actually justified, then if those extreme circumstances ever repeated
themselves in the future, then genocide would again be justified.

Gilberto,

 By the times, I mean just that. A small band fighting for survival.
Mind you, I never said the actions were justified, just that such
things happened. If you read the monuments and cuniform tablets of the
assyrians and babylonians you find much the same kind of stuff. Back
then whole villages got wiped out in war. That doesn't mean that I
think it justifiable, just that I think it might have happened just as
described. As to the parts about God telling them to do it, we still
have people around telling us that its ok to kill outsiders in God's
name and it still isn't right.

Rich

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2004-12-26 Thread Rich Ater



But it does seem to suggest that the previous religions are sufficient
guidance for later times as well.
Except that they were corrupted by the limitations of humanity. As you know, 
the Baha'i Faith does tend to side with the Shi'a explanation of things. Since 
we are discussing being honest with each other, the usual explanation is that 
if thye early Muslims had not turned there backs on Ali and elected Abu Bakr, 
Umar, or Uthman; and if they had stood behind Ali and not Mu'awiyya then Islam 
would have been sufficient. They didn't and so another revelation was needed.
I've heard this one from several sources. I'm not sure how accurate it 
is, but it should be brought out. I personally think that Abu Bakr and 
Umar get an undeserved bad rep from the Shi'a. I also think, along with 
Siyyed Qutb, that everyone thinks that Uthman was a bad idea.

Rich
 


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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

2004-12-24 Thread Rich Ater





Gilberto,
 I don't think so. Hikmat, from my understasnding means presenting
the Faith from the point of view of timliness and capacity of the
listener, as well as using tact. You brought this up earlier yourself,
in terms of dialogue with other religions. Holy War is forbidden to
Baha'is period. By Holy War is meant the violent spread of the Faith or
fighting physically against others who attack us for our faith.
Rich

Gilberto Simpson wrote:

  On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:46:07 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
You have brought up hikmat a number of times.  How does hikmat come into
play in this regard? 


  
  
Others might be able to explain it as well, but basically "hikmat" is
somtimes invoke a sometimes pragmatic suspension of a certain Bahai
principle in order to defend or promote the faith. So that whatever
restrictions Bahais put on killing, it still might include holy war in
some extreme situation.

PEace

Gilberto

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Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-24 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto Simpson wrote:

Dear Rich, I highly respect what you said and would agree with alot of it.

Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption:

[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the

book with their hands and

then say: This is from Allah, so that they may

take for it a small

price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have

written and woe

to them for what they earn.
[end quote]

Rich:
This may be open to

interpretation. I respect that you believe it means that the Gospel and
Torah here today are forgeries.

Gilberto:
I wouldn't use the term "forgeries". All I mean when *I* say
corruption is that the first five books of the Bible are not identical
to the Torah given to Moses. The 4 Biblical gospels are not identical
to the Gospel given to Jesus. I even know of Bibles put out by
Christians were the explanatory notes explain that the texts are
"corrupted". I wouldn't necessarily ascribe sinister motives to the
people who put the texts together.

Especially in the case of Jesus and the Gospels I think the corruption
of doctrine was a result of pious exageration. (I'm not sure if I'm
using the term correctly but I think the Bahai writings talk about
"veils of glory". Is that appropriate here?)

I think that what I'm saying is pretty mild.

What you're saying is mild. I was jumping to conclusions based on conversations that I've had with other Muslims. You mentioned in other posts that you believe the essense of the Injil is in the four Gospels, I believe that we are in aggreement there.

Gilberto:
I don't think there is a fundamental difference in what we are saying.
Some of the Bible may be the word of God. Some isn't. If even one
letter is off, if some numbers are missing, then "corruption" has
occured. If the wrong books were canonized, then "corruption" has
occured. Everything else is just a matter of degree.

In this sense, yes, corruption has occurred. Although I don't know that
there ever was a literal book of Jesus' We know about the Q source
meerly as an inference.

In other postings you discussed the genocidal tales in the Old
Testament. I've used those with Christians and Jews to illustrate that
the Qur'an not only isn't warlike, but considerably milder than the
Bible. I don't have trouble with believing that these events may have
occurred, considering the times. I don't have that much trouble with
Paul either. I think he's largely misunderstood, but that's a huge
topic in itself.
Rich

PS I agree that, while tact is indicated, we should not shy away from
topics that can be upsetting. There are fundamental diferences with the
Baha'i perspective on Islam and the Muslim perspective. Hopefully open
and respectful dialogue will help us to build an understanding. After
all, there is a fundamental diference between Judaism, Christianity,
and Isalm in viewpoint, but it didn't stop the Golden Age of Mideval
Andalucia.

Rich

What I say when I say the Bible is "corrupted" is alot milder than
what you deny when you say it isn't.

I think I know what you mean here, but i'm not sure.
Rich

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Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-21 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto:
I'm not sure I've read enough of Bahaullah's writings to say that he
gives a particularly deep understanding. Some Bahai interpretations of
Quranic passages I don't find terribly satisfying or super-deep. I
think there are Muslim scholars, especially Sufis and others who
interpret the Quran in ways which I find more impressive.

But the larger point I would want to make is that if you are saying
that over time, people can have a deeper understanding of certain
texts, then I actually wouldn't have much a problem with that notion
of progress. If, as quoted from the Bahai writings, the word of God is
endless in meaning, then that suggests that Muslims could stick to the
Quran and continue to study it, and find more and more spiritual depth
the more time they spent in its ocean.

Gilberto,
I have no problem with this either. I don't feel the need to
convince you to believe what I believe, just to accept the fact the I
believe it. I think you may never agree with my stance and that's
alright. I do not doubt for a minute your sincerity, or the sincerity
of other Muslims out there. What I'm looking for is mutual respect and
dialogue. I think this is achievable, but it will be more dificult if
we take each diference of oppinion as a dig at the other person. I
don't mean you personally, I have enjoyed our dialogue and wish it to
continue. My concern was that some of what you've said made me think
that you might have thought I was trying to convert you. I'm not, I
just want us to understand each other and live together. That has not
always been the case between our religions.

As I said, I believe that when a new Prophet comes, the energy released
in the world effects all people. That is why in the wake of Jesus
(PBUH) Hillel arrose and in the wake of Muhammad (PBUH) the likes of
Francis of Assisi, Moses Maimonides, and Thomas Aquinas arrose. I
would go further and say in the wake of Baha'u'llah Muhammad Abduh and
Fazlur Rahman arrose. Other religions will continue to produce
brilliant scholars and holy people. Each religion will produce new
insights into its scriptures and these will all be valid from some
perspective.

I must also add here that while Shoghi Effendi instructed Western
Baha'is to study and vindicate Islam, we have not done that good a job
and most Baha'is have no clue about fiqh, sharia, or what either
entails.

Rich:
Once again this has to do with our understanding. I know the Muslim

belief about the original Gospel and Torah. I think its specious. There is
nothing in the Qur'an to back it up.

In a passage discussing the People of the Book, is the admonition:

[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and
then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small
price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe
to them for what they earn.

This may be open to interpretation. I respect that you believe it means
that the Gospel and Torah here today are forgeries. I disagree with
this interpretation.

On top of that there are several hadith (at least one specifically
interprets the above verse) which are more explicit.

More harm has been done to Islam by Hadith than by all the armies of
Christendom. I know the ulm al isnad, but still its anybody guess as to
what is and isn't valid in Hadith. You'll note that I said that I did
not believe the Qur'an supports you're interpretation, my leaving out
Hadith was intentional. I mean no disrespect, but it's hard to prove
Hadith.

And on top of that, even if the Quran and sunnah didn't verify the
idea, I think the case for Biblical corruption is too strong to
neglect. For example, if you read the Penteteuch (the "Torah") Moses'
death is described at the end, in particular from the perspective of
someone long after. So someone besides Moses obviously wrote that
section. But then other passages of the Penteteuch are written in the
same style. In fact, Biblical scholars almost universally accept the
Documentary Hypothesis, which states that the Biblical Penteteuch had
multiple authors (typically 4 are distinguished) and edited together
centuries after Moses. So if that's true, the original revelation
given to Moses (the actual Torah) is only a part of the Biblical
Penteteuch.

A similar argument could be made about the Gospels. If the Gospel is a
revelation given to Jesus (similar to how the Quran was given to
Muhammad) then the Gospel, if it exists in the NT at all is found in
some portion of just the "red letters". But other elements are put
into the mix as well.

Besides, if you read about the history of the texts you would see that
certain changes have taken place.

I'm very aware of Biblical history, I've lectured on it in Baha'i classes. The Bible was written by men who were inspired by God. I do not believe that every word of it is the Word of God in the same sense that the Qur'an is, Baha'u'llah does not claim this. He states that

Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-19 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto:
I think you have to be careful about how you go about doing it. Bahais
call their belief *progressive* revelation which strongly suggests
that the dispensations of the Bab and then of Bahaullah are somehow
deeper, more complete, more suitable, new and improved, or otherwise
better than what came before.

And when Bahais start to articulate how the Bahai writings have
"progressed" over the Quran then the negative statements come into the
picture.

Gilberto,
Sorry it has taken so long. I would agree. I would ask you to bare
in mind that the Faith hasn't developed as many scholars as we'd like
to think, nor have we given serious thought to what progressive
revelation really means. If you read Baha'u'llah's comments on Islam
and Muhammad you did get, IMO, the concept of His or the Bab's
revelations being superior in the sense that some define progressive
revelation. I believe that Baha'u'llah's writings can give us a deeper
understanding of the Qur'an than someone reading it in the late 7th
century had and that a better understanding than someone in the 2nd
century reading the Gospels would have been had by someone reading it
after being open to the Islamic revelation. This has to do with the
energies released by the Prophets when they come , but I believe that
is because each Prophet brings a new paradigm shift that allows each to
understand more of what was there from the beginning. In other words
any limitations lie in us not the scriptures. I also think that this
energy is available to all, not just members of the new revelation,
hence Khalid abul fadel today, or Thomas Aquinas in 12th century Europe.

Rich:
In the Qur'an it says that God gave a revelation to each of the

Prophets and perfected their religion. If this is the case then in becoming
a Muslim, and I mean a Muslim in the common accepted manner of
understanding the term, not its universal definition, thyen you must end up criticizing Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, (God forbid).

Gilberto:
I wouldn't want to set the prophets against one another. Their various
messages are a repetition of the messages which came before. The
differences are more "horizontal" than "vertical" for example having
Friday be the emphasized day of the week rather than the Sabbath. The
problem with those earlier communities is that the original revelation
was no longer being faithfully transmitted. For example, I wouldn't
try to say that the Quran was better than the original Gospel or the
original Torah. I would question whether the texts in the current Old
and New Testament really are the Torah or the Gospel.

Once again this has to do with our understanding. I know the Muslim
belief about the original Gospel and Torah. I think its specious. There
is nothing in the Qur'an to back it up. Rather it was past
misunderstanding og these scriptures that led Jews from recognizing
Jesus (PBUH) and Christians from recognizing Muhammad (PBUH). I do
agree about horizontal changes and this is what is witnessed in the
diferences between Baha'i law and Islamic law. The spirit of the law
and its gift as a mercy from God stand intact.

Rich

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Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-14 Thread Rich Ater

Rich:

That's not quite true. You can do this by being critical of how
Muslims have interpreted the Qur'an.

Gilberto:
I'm not sure what you are saying. What do you mean by "this"?

Gilberto,
I think you probably have a good idea of what I mean by this, but
for the sake of argument, I'll explain further. By the above I mean
that one does not have to eventually criticize the Qur'an if one
accepts a revelation beyond it. In the Qur'an it says that God gave a
revelation to each of the Prophets and perfected their religion. If
this is the case then in becoming a Muslim, and I mean a Muslim in the
common accepted manner of understanding the term, not its universal
definition, thyen you must end up criticizing Abraham, Moses, and
Jesus, (God forbid).

You can do this by criticizing what

gets accepted these days for accepable Hadith, and you can do this by
looking at what has happened tp fiqh and ijtihad in modern times. This
criticisms are not just those of some Baha'is, but of some Muslims as
well. Read Speaking inGod's Name by Khalid Abul Fadil.

I'm not sure what you mean. I think you might be agreeing with me.
Ultimately, whatever problems there are don't require leaving Islam.
The fact that Khalid Abul Fadl is still Muslim, and hasn't become
Bahai teands to prove that no?

No. I do not agree with you. I merely point out that others are grappling with the unworkability of much of what passes for Shariah in the modern world. I mean no disrespect here to Islam. my daughter goes to a Muslim school, she is learning Arabic and I speak Arabic. We read the Qur'an together each night in Arabic, although her accent is much better than mine, she's six and soaks up the language like a sponge. What I am saying is that religion cannot be frozen to 7th century Arabia or to 19th century Iran. As the Qur'an says:

Every nation has its appointed time, and when their appointed time
comes they cannot keep it back an hour, nor can they bring it on. O
sons of Adam! verily, there will come to you apostles from amongst you,
narrating unto you my signs; then whoso fears God and does what is
right, there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. But those who
say my signs are lies, and who are too big with pride for them, these
are the fellows of the Fire, they shall dwell therein for aye!

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 7 - Al Aaraf)

Except for one verse in the 10th Sura, which I think is taken out
of context, there is no proof in the Qur'an that wahy ended with
Muhammad (PBUH). As to Hadith it's to facile to run to it. Even using
isnad. So that's where we part company, but let's not stop dialogue or
friendship with this disagreement. Let us instead, going back to the
Qur'an, look at the following verses:

Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from
error; whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most
trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth
all things.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2)

To you be your religion; to me my religion.

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 109 - Unbelievers)

Rich

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Re: Edict of toleration

2004-11-29 Thread Rich Ater



Dear Scott,
That policy doesn't appear until around 1904.  The impulse to immigrate to
Palestine doesn't begin until the very end of the 19th century with Theodor
Herzl's zionism which held that Jews needed their own  national homeland.
And even he wasn't insistent that it be in Palestine. Uganda and Guyana were
both mentioned as alternatives. We don't hear of complaints against Jewish
immigration and land purchases until 1891. And that probably wouldn't have
been seen as a problem had it not been clear that Zionists intended to make
Palestine a European colony.
warmest, Susan
Susan,
   Actually, Jews from the Russian pale started migrating to Palestine 
as early as 1880 to escape the pograms. Herzl, while certainly the one 
who gave Zionism it's lasting shape, was not the founder of the 
movement. You are right about the Ottomans clamping down in 1904, of 
course. A good, though biased, book about the shaping of the modern 
Middle East is Empires in the Sand. It deals with the downfall of the 
Ottoman Empire and the rise of the modern Middle Eastern states. I'm 
sure you know about it Susan, but some others might like to peruse it.
Rich


 


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Re: Chrismass and the children

2004-11-26 Thread Rich Ater





Jilla,
 My wife and I try to decorate the house with seasonal things.
During the Halloween/Thankgiving season we have autmnal decorations,
like Indian corn and squash. During Christmas /Hannukah we try to use
winter themes. We also try to decorate for Ayyam-i-Ha by putting up
decorations of 9 pointed stars and other Baha'i symbols, as well as
tell stories about certain Baha'i Holidays, such as Ridvan. I hope this
helps and say Hi to David for me. How is Elham doing?
Rich

Jilla Simmons wrote:

  
  
  At this time of the year when the
houses and streets are transformed by Christmas trees, decorations and
lights, the younger Bahai children delight in the glamour of the lights
and ask their parents to have a Christmases tree at home. The influence
of the advertisement, cartoons, and music is really great on a very
young mind. I remember when my children were young, one of them was
going to a Jewish preschool and another to a Christian preschool. So
during this time of the year one would ask to have a menorah and the
other one wanted a Christmas tree. 
  I was wondering if anyone has any
advice or suggestions in this case. 
  Also I thought it may be interesting
to brainstorm on different ways that we could make Ayyami-Ha very
special for children. 
  
  Jilla 
  
  
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Re: A request for a Qur'anic verse

2004-08-10 Thread Rich Ater





Very good, not a single Arab will understand you. That is Arabic with a
Persian accent. This is like reading Polish using English
pronunciation. I had an Algerian friend attend a fireside once and one
of the Persian friends got up and said the long healing prayer in
Arabic, when she was done my friend commented, "that was beautiful,
what language was it?"
Now:
Bismillah ir-rahman nir rahim, al hamdulillah rabu'l alamin. Ir-Rahman
nir-Rahim, Maliki yomu'din. EEyaki nabudu wa eyaki nastaeen. Edhina
seratu'l Mustagheem. Siratu'l adheen e anamati alayhim, ghayr een
maghdhub in alayhim wa la dheen.

Rich

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Let's see:
  
Bismillah-e Rahman-e Raheem. Alhqmdolleleahe Rabil AAlameen.
Al-Rahmaan-i-Raheem. Maalik a Yom-i Deen. Eeyak-i Na-a-bodo Va Eeyak-i
Nastaaeen. Ehdena Serat-al Mostagheem. Seraat-al Lazeen-e Anamat-e
Alayhem, Ghayr-en Maghzoob-in Alayhem Va La-Zaaleen.
  
Fariborz
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