RE: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bahai's insistence on being non-partisan in political matters seems odd to me. I'm not sure how to put it but it smells like complacency to me. [D.A.L.] Stepping back totally from political matters has been one of my greatest challenges as a Baha'i. The way I take it is twofold: first it avoids a whole range of temptations, most of them having to do with various forms of corruption; and second, it places the emphasis on social actions that speak directly to others. In addition, it clarifies for us the fact that political action can never save the world. That is in the hands of God, and we must be willing to have faith in that fact. Jesus on the other was from a humbler background. Even as a child, he was a refugee, lived in Africa, didn't come from a humble background, didn't have servants, associated with the outcasts of society. He was homeless, poor. He knew Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea but otherwise didn't seem to have many connections or familiarity with powerful people. He was a big mouth, often spoke out against the authorities, overturned the tables of the money-changes and used whips to get them out of the Temple. And similar things could be said of John the Baptist. [D.A.L.] I'm not entirely sure that is fully established about Jesus' life and circumstances. His minstry was supported by donations, some of which came from wealthy patrons. Hw had a home base in Capernaum, which He may not have owned outright, but it was there. Bahá'u'lláh's background was more like the Buddha's. God's Manifestations have come from many backgrounds. Dave Lambert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
[kf] Most respectfully this servant [kf] would add that although the background of Jesus Christ and His holiness Bahá'u'lláh are important, the background of these Sanctified Beings is in no way determinative, defining, or de-limiting. Consider for example Jesus Christ. In Samaria the Samaritan woman thought He was a Jew. But simultaneously in Jerusalem the Jerusalem people thought that that sanctified Being was a Samaritan John 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, BEING A JEW, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? FOR THE JEWS HAVE NO DEALINGS WITH THE SAMARITANS. John 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well THAT THOU ART A SAMARITAN? In the Islamic Dispensation too *** 025.007 YUSUFALI: And they say: WHAT SORT OF A MESSENGER IS THIS, WHO EATS FOOD, AND WALKS THROUGH THE STREETS? Why has not an angel been sent down to him to give admonition with him? PICKTHAL: And they say: WHAT AILETH THIS MESSENGER (OF ALLAH) THAT HE EATETH FOOD AND WALKETH IN THE MARKETS? Why is not an angel sent down unto him, to be a warner with him. SHAKIR: AND THEY SAY: WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THIS MESSENGER THAT HE EATS FOOD AND GOES ABOUT IN THE MARKETS; why has not an angel been sent down to him, so that he should have been a warner with him? And yet in this Dispensation The learning current amongst men I studied not; THEIR SCHOOLS I ENTERED NOT. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. (Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts) And although this is a longer quotation it is so profoundly inspiring I thought we could read it together. Sorry to interfere in your conversation [lowliest khazeh] The term heaven denoteth loftiness and exaltation, inasmuch as it is the seat of the revelation of those Manifestations of Holiness, the Day-springs of ancient glory. These ancient Beings, THOUGH DELIVERED FROM THE WOMB OF THEIR MOTHER, have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. THOUGH THEY BE DWELLING ON THIS EARTH, yet their true habitations are the retreats of glory in the realms above. Whilst WALKING AMONGST MORTALS, THEY SOAR in the heaven of the divine presence. Without feet they tread the path of the spirit, and without wings they rise unto the exalted heights of divine unity. WITH EVERY FLEETING BREATH THEY COVER THE IMMENSITY OF SPACE, AND AT EVERY MOMENT TRAVERSE THE KINGDOMS OF THE VISIBLE AND THE INVISIBLE. Upon their thrones is written: Nothing whatsoever keepeth Him from being occupied with any other thing; and on their seats is inscribed: Verily, His ways differ every day. They are sent forth through the transcendent power of the Ancient of Days, and are raised up by the exalted will of God, the most mighty King. This is what is meant by the words: coming in the clouds of heaven. ... Wert thou to cleanse the mirror of thy heart from the dust of malice, thou wouldst apprehend the meaning of the symbolic terms revealed by the all-embracing Word of God made manifest in every Dispensation, and wouldst discover the mysteries of divine knowledge. NOT, HOWEVER, UNTIL THOU CONSUMEST WITH THE FLAME OF UTTER DETACHMENT THOSE VEILS OF IDLE LEARNING, THAT ARE CURRENT AMONGST MEN, CANST THOU BEHOLD THE RESPLENDENT MORN OF TRUE KNOWLEDGE. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 67-69) [Emphasis added with humble respect] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 December 2004 20:32 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: RE: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not? [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bahai's insistence on being non-partisan in political matters seems odd to me. I'm not sure how to put it but it smells like complacency to me. [D.A.L.] Stepping back totally from political matters has been one of my greatest challenges as a Baha'i. The way I take it is twofold: first it avoids a whole range of temptations, most of them having to do with various forms of corruption; and second, it places the emphasis on social actions that speak directly to others. In addition, it clarifies for us the fact that political action can never save the world. That is in the hands of God, and we must be willing to have faith in that fact. Jesus on the other was from a humbler background. Even as a child, he was a refugee, lived in Africa, didn't come from a humble background, didn't have servants, associated with the outcasts of society. He was homeless, poor. He knew Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea but otherwise didn't seem to have many connections or familiarity with powerful people. He was a big mouth, often spoke out against the authorities, overturned the tables of the money-changes and used whips to get them out of the Temple. And similar things could be said of John the Baptist. [D.A.L.] I'm not entirely sure that is fully established about Jesus' life
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
In a message dated 12/11/2004 1:14:37 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I should probably read more about the life of the Bab and Bahaullahbefore saying much about it. (So I'm factually wrong please point meto where I can get accurate information) Balyuzi wrote a four volume biography of Baha`u'llah which is an excellent place to begin. But my impression is that hestill had servants and a place to live for a good chunk of his life.He came from a noble, elite background, private tutors. He was the son of the Vizier of the Shah, a man largely in charge of the Shah's "Department of State". He was the descendant of the old dynasty of Persia, and yes his family had large holdings in Mazindaran and in Teheran. His father fell out of favor with the court, and when a replacement was sought it was suggested that Baha`u'llah should fill the post. He declined. The vizier who recommended Him was a bitter enemy of the Bab. He had servants, land rural and urban all these things, yet after the death of His father He chose to be known as the "Father of the Poor". When He was arrested and cast into the Siyah Chal, All His possessions were confiscated. The only reason He was not among the executed (other than it seems to be the will of God from a Baha`i's point of view that He be preserved) was that one of his sisters was married to an important official in the Russian embassy to the Shah who led a delegation to the Shah's court to demand that Baha`u'llah's guilt be proven or He be released. When He was banished to Baghdad, His possessions were gone. The only servant who followed Him did so voluntarily. His exile in Baghdad was very pecunious - for all the Babi's there. Eventually He was sent to COnstantinople and was given an allowance as a political exile from Iran, by that time funds were apparently being contributed to the cause by adherents near and far, so when He was exiled to Akka, it was planned to fund His transfer and only four followers. He refused any money at that time and paid His own way and the way of His family and followers to go with Him. Where did that money come from? From believers who chose to contribute their own wealth to perpetuate the Faith. I would suggest that Jesus also existed during His ministry by the contributions of others. His was not a formal exile or imprisonment, but a voluntary abandonment of wealth. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
Oh, one other point I wanted to make but I forgot. It is my impression that, in the Book of Certitude, Baha'u'llah makes a case that the over-emphasis on literalism by proponents of relgion is a leading cause for the decline of religious faith and the declining respect for religion. Am I correct in my impression? I believe that Baha'u'lah would make the same criticism today of Baha'i attitudes, that He made when He wrote the Book of Certitude. On Friday, December 10, 2004, at 09:27AM, Ronald Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While encouraging those Bahais who are upset about the Ruhi Method to get over it and move on, Dick Detweiler wrote : Surely the tent is big enough for that? I agree with him and I am not too concerned about the Ruhi methods. I have attended Ruhi classes and they dont bother me, although I fail to see how much good will come out of them either. To me, Ruhi is irrelevant to the big picture, but the question of whether or not the BahaI Faith can be a big tent is relevant. I believe than the Faith is shirking in numbers and in general failing to excite enthusiasm because we are projecting ourselves as a very small tent. I believe that there could be a big demand for a Faith that allows people to believe in religion but also in science and reason. I also believe that the Writings of the Faith offer us the option to be just that sort of community. But in practice, I believe we project an image of being another literal, inerrant religion like evangelical Christianity or ultra-conservative Islam. I dont think there is a market for such a new religion because there are already an excess of such religions, and people can readily see the problems they bring about. If we believe in a literally inerrant scripture (which we call the Writings) then how do we differ from evangelical Christians who believe the same about the Bible, or ultra conservative Muslims who believe the same about the Quran? Of course, we can just say our scriptures are inerrant and theirs arent, but they say the same themselves about their scriptures. And, most importantly, doesnt Bahaullah caution against precisely such a literal inerrant approach in His Book of Certitude? This major theme of the Book of Certitude seems to be something that never gets discussed and never is taken seriously. Its hard to even discuss this topic, but if we ignore it because of the pain and sensitivity involved, then we will continue to be seen as being far to the right of evangelical Christianity, a sort of return-to-Medieval attitudes religion, rather than a viable religion for the future. Ron __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
Ron, At 11:27 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote: I dont think there is a market for such a new religion because there are already an excess of such religions, and people can readily see the problems they bring about. I am just guessing, but ... The Baha'i Faith is a religion which *appears* to be to the left on political, economic, and social issues and which *appears* (perhaps without a closer inspection) to be to the right on questions of morality. To many European Americans, and in the framework of conventional social norms and definitions of categories, the Baha'i Faith may appear inconsistent. However, perhaps this explains, in part, why, in South Carolina, a couple of predominantly African American evangelical churches became Baha'i centers (along with the preachers and their congregations), but why nothing similar has ever, to my knowledge, happened with predominantly European American churches. In other words, it is fairly common for African American, but not European American, evangelicals to be liberal, or radical, on social issues but conservative on theological ones. Why, officially or not, did most of those African American Baha'is in the deep South leave the Faith? I think that there are at least two reasons: 1. There was nothing to replace the neighborhood Black church which, for many people (especially those in rural areas), functions as a kind of community center. 2. The emphasis on Jesus was replaced by an emphasis on Baha'u'llah. Although Dr. Hedi Ahmadiyya attempted, in his teaching booklet, to remedy this problem by focusing on the suffering of Baha'u'llah and the Bab, I don't think it did the trick. The historical attachment to Jesus as someone who suffered like we have was simply too strong. If we believe in a literally inerrant scripture (which we call the Writings) then how do we differ from evangelical Christians who believe the same about the Bible, or ultra conservative Muslims who believe the same about the Quran? Of course, we can just say our scriptures are inerrant and theirs arent, but they say the same themselves about their scriptures. Those Baha'is are really a fundamentalist, evangelical, or reformed Protestant definition of infallibility on the Baha'i texts. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
Hi, Richard, At 12:38 PM 12/10/2004, you wrote: I read the entire above selection to a Baha'i friend who gives workshops and lectures regarding African-Americans and Blacks. She has told me that everything you have written above is right on the money and that your conversation on this subject should be encouraged I hope that you are hereby encouraged. Thanks. I have actually discussed these the ideas I raised in that posting with members of the House of Justice, with members of the American NSA, and at district conventions (back when that term was used). Perhaps they didn't agree with me, or it never came up in consultations. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
But in practice, I believe we project an image of being another literal, inerrant religion like evangelical Christianity or ultra-conservative Islam. Dear Ron, I know you have this impression at present, but I think if you did a survey of the general population who have some familiarity with Baha'i, this would not be the terms in which they would describe us. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
In a message dated 12/11/2004 12:30:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I am honst, I have this same issue. The sufferigof Jesus on the cross is a powerful story. Try as I might, I can not see Baha'u'llah's imprisonment for decades as equivalent. It just isnt' the same kind of powerful imagery. Dear Ron, I'm not so sure. Remember that the African slave experience is that of a lifetime of suffering, not a few hours on the cross. That is closer to Baha'u'llah's suffering. If the imagery of the cross is more powerful in Christianity it is because Christians themselves have made it such. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
Patti, At 09:12 PM 12/10/2004, you wrote: I think that the point of it is that people might be interested in the Faith with their heads, but their hearts spirits need to be touched I won't comment on the Ruhi part. However, I agree that the above is important, and, to that extent, Hedi Ahmadiyya was on the right track. What was missing, in my view was: 1. The absence of permanent community centers in each neighborhood. 2. The fact that the teachers immediately left. Consolidation teams would only show up months or years later. Sometimes they would never show up. In my view, the mass teachers should, ideally, be homefront pioneers who themselves will be involved in the consolidation. (In fact, Ahmadiyya suggested that the same people involved in mass teaching needed to do the consolidation.) Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:27:37 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And, most importantly, doesnt Bahaullah caution against precisely such a literal inerrant approach in His Book of Certitude? This major theme of the Book of Certitude seems to be something that never gets discussed and never is taken seriously. I think all the sacred texts can be taken as inerrant in context. It is when we clip verses and hold them up as "union placards" that we run into trouble. We are in effect taking the verse out of context. Study of the word shows that interpretation of the word must be inclusive of other interpretations. When we cannot find a way to include an interpretation into our understanding of the word then it is our understanding that is deficient, not the word itself. This is why (in my understanding) the sacred text demands that we bring our scientific and spiritual understandings of creation into a synchronized state, because those "interpretations" of creation must be inclusive. Literalism is the great foe of such an understanding. It is a set of chains and shackles which an individual dons voluntarily and then extolls to others. For myself, no thank you, I am not interested. It is firmly set in my personal view of reality that my misunderstandings are inerrant, the word will not be if I can change my understanding. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Can the Baha'i Faith be a Big Tent or not?
Hi, Ron, At 11:40 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote: It is my impression that, in the Book of Certitude, Baha'u'llah makes a case that the over-emphasis on literalism by proponents of relgion is a leading cause for the decline of religious faith and the declining respect for religion. Am I correct in my impression? IMHO, literalism can, from one standpoint, be defined as an attachment to names, i.e., regarding them (including our Sacred Texts) as being representations, or manifestations, or reality. I believe that Baha'u'lah would make the same criticism today of Baha'i attitudes, that He made when He wrote the Book of Certitude. I think that is a very good point. I suspect He would make a similar criticism. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
