Re: Relativity of Truth
gilberto,
susan will possibly find the Bab SAying it, based on findin the relvant
keywords.
i will trun to wariner's handbook of english and say one is an adjective.
i will say the rule is that an adjective limits a noun.
i will say that by the rules of language, logic and godel's hypothesis,
the claim of the abiloty to limit is based on the claim of knowledge of the
set.
i would offer that to say " God is" suffers the same flaw to some degree.
to even say "God" requires definition---which defacto is "to limit".
and that this point...an inherent flaw in human capability of expressing
Truth was part of what i was addressing to matt.
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Re: Relativity of Truth
are true, but rather
opens its doors for worship. Its centrality demonstrates that correct
religious statements are not "where its at" in the religious
community. Compare this to a calvinist religious community, that
supposes that religious truths have an absolute value, naturally it
puts orthodoxy, right beliefs, and the preacher's pulpit at the core
of its life.
etc. etc. The relativity of truth permeates the Bahai teachings, to
such an extent that it would be quite impossible to understand who
Baha'u'llah is and what he hopes to achieve, without appreciating the
fundamental verity he begins with: that religious truth is relative
not absolute. If this was something that Shoghi Effendi introduced,
in one specific context, then Baha'u'llah makes no sense. His whole
career is a declaration against the absolutising of religious truth,
and the harm that does to society and to true religion
Sen
--
--
Sen McGlinn
***
Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind
the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved
Master
with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar,
the crowning institution in every Baha'i community.
(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page
108)
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Relativity of Truth
On 26 Mar 2008 at 23:56, Brent Poirier Attorney wrote:
> If one takes the statement that "religious truth is not absolute, but
> relative" as a broad sweep about the nature of all Revelation, then
> your
> conclusions logically follow. But I respectfully disagree with the
> premise because:
>
> - It has no antecedents in the Texts
> - It is not found in the Iqan or in the design of the Mashriq
> - It is taken out of context; and when context is provided, the
> Guardian states plainly that he is talking about Progressive
> Revelation.
We can agree to disagree, but it is not true that the relativity of
religious truths has no antecedents in the Texts. It is only this
particular formulation that is particular to Shoghi Effendi, but the
concept is fundamental to much of the Writings, on various issues.
- The doctrine of man (theological anthropology): What is the nature
of the human being and his/her capacity to know things (ie, if there
was such a thing as an absolute religious truth, would a human person
be able to know it?).
- The nature of religious language (metaphorical, symbolic, and
multiple meanings)
- perspectivism: what is true for a person at one station may not be
true in another; religious truth is individually relative
-- the concept of salvation: it is not an absolute, either heaven or
hell, but relative: each individual grows through endless grades
- the "new heaven and new earth" model of radical religious renewal:
evolution and reform is humanly possible, but what the Manifestation
brings is a total renewal, the recreation of all things, i..e, the
system of religious truths is treated as a whole (truths are relative
to one another) rather than treating each religious truth as a
separate item to be argued individually.
- progressive revelation as already discussed, but also prophetology
(eg that the absolute does not incarnate itself)
- the doctrine of God: all absolutes are reserved for God alone, and
are said to be unknowable. This relates to the nature of religious
language - statements about God (the absolute) are understood as
referring in fact to a historical manifesation of God (relative)
- the design of the religious community, with the Mashriq as its
heart and crown. The mashriq has neither authority nor a doctrinal
function, and is open to all religionists: it is an institution that
does not make "statements" with claims that they are true, but rather
opens its doors for worship. Its centrality demonstrates that correct
religious statements are not "where its at" in the religious
community. Compare this to a calvinist religious community, that
supposes that religious truths have an absolute value, naturally it
puts orthodoxy, right beliefs, and the preacher's pulpit at the core
of its life.
etc. etc. The relativity of truth permeates the Bahai teachings, to
such an extent that it would be quite impossible to understand who
Baha'u'llah is and what he hopes to achieve, without appreciating the
fundamental verity he begins with: that religious truth is relative
not absolute. If this was something that Shoghi Effendi introduced,
in one specific context, then Baha'u'llah makes no sense. His whole
career is a declaration against the absolutising of religious truth,
and the harm that does to society and to true religion
Sen
--
--
Sen McGlinn
***
Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind
the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved
Master
with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar,
the crowning institution in every Baha'i community.
(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page
108)
--
--
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Re: Relativity of Truth
Sen wrote:
>> . . . the statement "religious truth is not
absolute, but relative" is a meta-statement. It immediately
interprets and provides a framework for all Bahai truth-statements.
If a statement is absolute ("When Yahya Darabi arrived at Shiraz he
interviewed the Bab three times.") it is not a religious truth. This
statement is history: if it turns out to be wrong, that will not have
any religious significance. At most it would confirm what we already
know, that not everything stated in the Bahai writings is absolutely
true ! >>
My view is that to understand what the Guardian means by the relativity
of truth, we have to look at all of the passages where he made that
statement. Among these passages from him we see that he wrote that the
structure of the Mashriq incorporates this principle, and that it is a
major theme of the Iqan. The Guardian is not bringing up some entirely
new reality in the Faith; he is its Interpreter, not the Originator of
new teachings.
So whatever the Guardian means by this, has to have its seed in the
Writings of Baha'u'llah or the Master. And we don't have to scour all
of Their Writings to find what the Guardian is referring to; we can
sincerely look at the structure of the Mashriq and at the text of the
Iqan, and see what's there.
I don't see anything about relativity in the Iqan, in any sense except
that there is a succession of Prophets, and each Prophet changes the
laws in accordance with the needs of His age:
"in all Dispensations the law of prayer hath constituted a fundamental
element of the Revelation of all the Prophets of God -- a law the form
and the manner of which hath been adapted to the varying requirements of
every age." (Iqan, p. 39)
"That city is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and
dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of
Jesus the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad the Messenger of God the
Qur'án; in this day the Bayan; and in the dispensation of Him Whom God
will make manifest His own Book -- the Book unto which all the Books of
former Dispensations must needs be referred. . . " (Iqan, p. 199)
"By "heaven" is meant the heaven of divine Revelation, which is elevated
with every Manifestation, and rent asunder with every subsequent one. By
"cloven asunder" is meant that the former Dispensation is superseded and
annulled." (Iqan, p. 44)
If one takes the statement that "religious truth is not absolute, but
relative" as a broad sweep about the nature of all Revelation, then your
conclusions logically follow. But I respectfully disagree with the
premise because:
- It has no antecedents in the Texts
- It is not found in the Iqan or in the design of the Mashriq
- It is taken out of context; and when context is provided, the Guardian
states plainly that he is talking about Progressive Revelation.
Just my view.
Best regards
Brent
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Re: Relativity of Truth
Dear Gilberto,
I think the Bab was saying something along these lines. If God is
truly unknowable and wholly transcendent then any attempt to describe
Him including saying God is One is inadequate.
warmest, Susan
On 3/26/08, Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, actually there is a rather philosophical passage in Nahjul
> Balagha (I don't know how Bahais necessarily view that text) which
> actually does say something like that. (Or at least, one thing reminds
> me of the other) But I don't think it then provides license for
> polytheism.
>
> Sermon 151:
>
> Praise be to Allah who is proof of His existence through His creation,
> of His being external through the newness of His creation, and through
> their mutual similarities of the fact that nothing is similar to Him.
> Senses cannot touch Him and curtains cannot veil Him, because of the
> difference between the Maker and the made, the Limiter and the limited
> and the Sustainer and the sustained.
>
> He is One but not by the first in counting, is Creator but not through
> activity or labour, is Hearer but not by means of any physical organ,
> is Looker but not by a stretching of eyelids, is Witness but not by
> nearness, is Distinct but not by measurement of distance, is Manifest
> but not by seeing and is Hidden but not by subtlety (of body). He is
> Distinct from things because He overpowers them and exercises might
> over them, while things are distinct from Him because of their
> subjugation to Him and their turning towards Him.
>
> He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who
> numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a
> description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him. He is the Knower
> even though there be nothing to be known. He is the Sustainer even
> though there be nothing to be sustained. He is the Powerful even
> though there be nothing to be overpowered.
>
> [...]
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > If you ask a question like "How many gods/God is there?" The standard
> > > Muslim answer is "one". A typical Buddhist answer is "zero". And a
> > > possible Hindu answer is 3003. And yet in some sense the Bahais seem
> > > to affirm all these different answers simultaneously.
> >
> > Dear Gilberto,
> >
> > So does Hinduism.
> >
> > > Who said that to say "God is One" is shirk?
> >
> > The Bab, but I always have trouble finding the exact quote. How do you
> > get a key word out of "God is One"?
> >
> > wamrest, Susan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Relativity of Truth
Well, actually there is a rather philosophical passage in Nahjul
Balagha (I don't know how Bahais necessarily view that text) which
actually does say something like that. (Or at least, one thing reminds
me of the other) But I don't think it then provides license for
polytheism.
Sermon 151:
Praise be to Allah who is proof of His existence through His creation,
of His being external through the newness of His creation, and through
their mutual similarities of the fact that nothing is similar to Him.
Senses cannot touch Him and curtains cannot veil Him, because of the
difference between the Maker and the made, the Limiter and the limited
and the Sustainer and the sustained.
He is One but not by the first in counting, is Creator but not through
activity or labour, is Hearer but not by means of any physical organ,
is Looker but not by a stretching of eyelids, is Witness but not by
nearness, is Distinct but not by measurement of distance, is Manifest
but not by seeing and is Hidden but not by subtlety (of body). He is
Distinct from things because He overpowers them and exercises might
over them, while things are distinct from Him because of their
subjugation to Him and their turning towards Him.
He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who
numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a
description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him. He is the Knower
even though there be nothing to be known. He is the Sustainer even
though there be nothing to be sustained. He is the Powerful even
though there be nothing to be overpowered.
[...]
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If you ask a question like "How many gods/God is there?" The standard
> > Muslim answer is "one". A typical Buddhist answer is "zero". And a
> > possible Hindu answer is 3003. And yet in some sense the Bahais seem
> > to affirm all these different answers simultaneously.
>
> Dear Gilberto,
>
> So does Hinduism.
>
> > Who said that to say "God is One" is shirk?
>
> The Bab, but I always have trouble finding the exact quote. How do you
> get a key word out of "God is One"?
>
> wamrest, Susan
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: Relativity of Truth
> I don't know, I just feel that the Qur'an intends itself to be quite literal
> when talking about the Oneness and Uniqueness of God.
I'm sure it does. The Qur'an is trying to draw people away from idol
worship. The question is, what do our own Writings intend?
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Re: Relativity of Truth
> If you ask a question like "How many gods/God is there?" The standard
> Muslim answer is "one". A typical Buddhist answer is "zero". And a
> possible Hindu answer is 3003. And yet in some sense the Bahais seem
> to affirm all these different answers simultaneously.
Dear Gilberto,
So does Hinduism.
> Who said that to say "God is One" is shirk?
The Bab, but I always have trouble finding the exact quote. How do you
get a key word out of "God is One"?
wamrest, Susan
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Re: Relativity of Truth
I don't know, I just feel that the Qur'an intends itself to be quite literal
when talking about the Oneness and Uniqueness of God.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:13 PM, firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> matt,
> what logical fallacy?
> i mean this dead seriously.
> if to say God is One is shirk...what is more shirky about 6 or 12? off
> hand, in what Text are u or i given Authority to classify 1st degree, 2nd
> degree, 3rd degree, or involuntary shirk?
> or are we all guilty of involuntary shirk by reason of our having
> material bodies? and thus yet, another proof of original sin in conformance
> with he Master's explanation. and only punishible to the degree we refuse to
> forgive others of the same crime? --Lor'ds Prayer. and who does the
> punishing? us. for we have met the enemy and he is uspogo
>
> it's a logical fallacy to say that light is a particle, or it's a wave.
> it can't be both. that;s not logical. o..never mind.
> it's just True.
> "things don;t have to be possible--they just have to be true"-from the
> 2nd book of His dark Materials...known in usa as the golden compass.
> einstein resolves the issue percisely how Baha'u'llah Told him to in the
> Iqan...it depends on ur pov.
> from outside the system (godel's hypothesis) the results can be
> Reported.
> inside the system, nothing knows what it is.
> "she turned my wave lengths into particles by the power of observance,
> sometimes on the sly" --in old louisville, serpent wisdom.
> "at one time We Said...whatever.. at another We Said...hmmm. something
> else, anyway...can u just get ur game on and go do It? "
> ok.. that may be a paraphrase:-)
> this can leave one paralysed with..but how do i >>>know< and the Voice in It's unutterable mercy created smashmouth to tell
> u...u'll never know if u don;t go.
>
>
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Re: Relativity of Truth
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 4:13 PM, firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> matt,
> what logical fallacy?
If you ask a question like "How many gods/God is there?" The standard
Muslim answer is "one". A typical Buddhist answer is "zero". And a
possible Hindu answer is 3003. And yet in some sense the Bahais seem
to affirm all these different answers simultaneously.
> i mean this dead seriously.
I tried to give you a straightforward answer.
> if to say God is One is shirk...what is more shirky about 6 or 12?
Who said that to say "God is One" is shirk?
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Re: Relativity of Truth
susan,
awesome, thank u again.
i would, to this point extract 4 samples, intactish, to the point of an
outline, with 2 phrases emphasized by me in the effort to increase the
common ground:
""or the response would have run counter to wisdom and been >incompatible
with that which is current amongst men<<<.
At present, however, it behoveth us to follow His injunction to “leave them to
their vain disputes”.
By the Intellect mentioned above is meant the universal divine Mind.
A divine Manifestation Who hath extolled and magnified the one true God,
exalted be His glory, Who hath borne witness to His knowledge and confessed
that His Essence is sanctified above all things and exalted beyond every
comparison—such a Manifestation hath been called< at various
times a worshipper of the sun or a fire-worshipper. How numerous are those
sublime Manifestations and Revealers of the Divine of Whose stations the people
remain 33 wholly unaware...
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Re: Relativity of Truth
matt, what logical fallacy? i mean this dead seriously. if to say God is One is shirk...what is more shirky about 6 or 12? off hand, in what Text are u or i given Authority to classify 1st degree, 2nd degree, 3rd degree, or involuntary shirk? or are we all guilty of involuntary shirk by reason of our having material bodies? and thus yet, another proof of original sin in conformance with he Master's explanation. and only punishible to the degree we refuse to forgive others of the same crime? --Lor'ds Prayer. and who does the punishing? us. for we have met the enemy and he is uspogo it's a logical fallacy to say that light is a particle, or it's a wave. it can't be both. that;s not logical. o..never mind. it's just True. "things don;t have to be possible--they just have to be true"-from the 2nd book of His dark Materials...known in usa as the golden compass. einstein resolves the issue percisely how Baha'u'llah Told him to in the Iqan...it depends on ur pov. from outside the system (godel's hypothesis) the results can be Reported. inside the system, nothing knows what it is. "she turned my wave lengths into particles by the power of observance, sometimes on the sly" --in old louisville, serpent wisdom. "at one time We Said...whatever.. at another We Said...hmmm. something else, anyway...can u just get ur game on and go do It? " ok.. that may be a paraphrase:-) this can leave one paralysed with..but how do i >>>know
RE: Relativity of Truth
Yes, please send an attachment to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks,
jilla Simmons
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:23:34 -0800> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE:
> Relativity of Truth> To: bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> > If anyone is interested I
> will be pleased to send a copy of my paper> "Relativism and the Baha'i
> Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at Bosch> in May 2007. > > Best
> wishes,> > Ian Kluge > >
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-Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent
> Poirier> Attorney> Sent: March 25, 2008 11:47 AM> To: Baha'i Studies>
> Subject: Re: Relativity of Truth> > Matt Haase wrote:> > >>I had a
> conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced > me to his idea
> that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than > another word to
> say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent, > but unconvincing
> (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept > that since God is the
> Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of > the Religious Scriptures
> is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the > Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is
> true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim > Polytheism, it is true. If God
> condemns the belief in the Trinity in one > scripture, it is true. But if God
> affirms the Trinity later on, it is > true. I don't accept that kind of
> logic, personally.>>> > I'm with you, Matt. Whatever wacky opinions I may
> express, if I don't > back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener
> should not attribute > these statements as having any bearing whatever on
> what the Baha'i Faith > stands for. That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote
> through his secretary:> > "Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are
> enjoined to constantly > refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any
> explanations we make > to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must
> be based on the > Word -- and the Word alone."> (From a letter dated 4 June
> 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to > the National Spiritual Assembly
> of Canada; from the Compilation, The > Individual and Teaching - Raising the
> Divine Call, p. 39)> > Best regards> Brent> > > > > The information contained
> in this e-mail and any attachments thereto> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson
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RE: Relativity of Truth
Yes, please send an attachment to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks,
jilla Simmons
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:23:34 -0800> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE:
> Relativity of Truth> To: bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> > If anyone is interested I
> will be pleased to send a copy of my paper> "Relativism and the Baha'i
> Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at Bosch> in May 2007. > > Best
> wishes,> > Ian Kluge > >
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-Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent
> Poirier> Attorney> Sent: March 25, 2008 11:47 AM> To: Baha'i Studies>
> Subject: Re: Relativity of Truth> > Matt Haase wrote:> > >>I had a
> conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced > me to his idea
> that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than > another word to
> say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent, > but unconvincing
> (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept > that since God is the
> Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of > the Religious Scriptures
> is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the > Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is
> true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim > Polytheism, it is true. If God
> condemns the belief in the Trinity in one > scripture, it is true. But if God
> affirms the Trinity later on, it is > true. I don't accept that kind of
> logic, personally.>>> > I'm with you, Matt. Whatever wacky opinions I may
> express, if I don't > back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener
> should not attribute > these statements as having any bearing whatever on
> what the Baha'i Faith > stands for. That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote
> through his secretary:> > "Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are
> enjoined to constantly > refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any
> explanations we make > to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must
> be based on the > Word -- and the Word alone."> (From a letter dated 4 June
> 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to > the National Spiritual Assembly
> of Canada; from the Compilation, The > Individual and Teaching - Raising the
> Divine Call, p. 39)> > Best regards> Brent> > > > > The information contained
> in this e-mail and any attachments thereto> ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson
> County Community College ("JCCC") and is> intended to be confidential and for
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> __> Yo
Relativity of Truth
> If anyone is interested I will be pleased to send a copy of my paper
> "Relativism and the Baha'i Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at
> Bosch in May 2007.
Yes, please
Sen
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RE: Relativity of Truth
Ian, Please send as attachment to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks,
Sandy Pauer
Loveland, CO
Ian Kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If anyone is interested I will be pleased to send a copy of my paper
"Relativism and the Baha'i Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at Bosch
in May 2007.
Best wishes,
Ian Kluge
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Poirier
Attorney
Sent: March
-
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
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Re: Relativity of Truth
Hi Ian,
I would like to read that paper.
On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Ian Kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If anyone is interested I will be pleased to send a copy of my paper
> "Relativism and the Baha'i Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at
> Bosch
> in May 2007.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ian Kluge
>
>
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-Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Poirier
> Attorney
> Sent: March 25, 2008 11:47 AM
> To: Baha'i Studies
> Subject: Re: Relativity of Truth
>
> Matt Haase wrote:
>
> >>I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced
> me to his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than
> another word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent,
> but unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept
> that since God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of
> the Religious Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the
> Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim
> Polytheism, it is true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one
> scripture, it is true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is
> true. I don't accept that kind of logic, personally.>>
>
> I'm with you, Matt. Whatever wacky opinions I may express, if I don't
> back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener should not attribute
> these statements as having any bearing whatever on what the Baha'i Faith
> stands for. That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote through his secretary:
>
> "Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
> refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make
> to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the
> Word -- and the Word alone."
> (From a letter dated 4 June 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to
> the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada; from the Compilation, The
> Individual and Teaching - Raising the Divine Call, p. 39)
>
> Best regards
> Brent
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
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> is
> not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention,
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Re: Relativity of truth
> susan,
> thank u for exposing me to that Tablet.. is It around anywhere handy in toto?
Yeah, right here:
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TU/tu-4.html
I think if we read it carefully this issue of relativity will be much clearer.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Relativity of Truth
What I mean Firestormin, is that not all of the Religious Scriptures agree
on fundamental theological matters. For instance, how am I supposed to
believe in the Hindu Scriptures that list a whole slew of various gods,
while simulteanously believe in the Hebrew and Qur'anic scriptures which
condemn polytheism? Even though I am a 'universalist' at heart, I can't let
a logical fallacy like that go unnoticed in my mind and heart.
peace,
On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 8:13 PM, firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matt,
> there's a simple way to sort out the idea:
> tell me which Revealed Text is error...
> nb i dfo nottt say..which commne t by whatever ecclesiatic is just so much
> roo dandruff...
> but which Revealed Text is error?
> if none, then...?
>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: Relativity of truth
susan,
thank u for exposing me to that Tablet.. is It around anywhere handy in toto?
i would offer that the word "valuable" here is tricky. to my vague
understadning, "value" points >directly< to that which causes the apprehender
to see a potential to further his own image of accomplishment, health,
well-being, etc. and inside that definition we have the Blessed Beauty Saying
"needs of the age"
so..to be concrete: do we protect the environment because it is the One, or
because it emanated from the One,, or because it came into being by operation
of the One's Word, or because being poisoned sux?
to the extent we argue about it...we die.
inside that framework, for this 500k years, it appears that seeing
a valuable output of our thoughts involves seeing the Manifestation as
Intermediary, or as was discussed during the deconstruction, the Archimedean
Fulcrum by which all else is moved.
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Re: Relativity of Truth
Matt,
there's a simple way to sort out the idea:
tell me which Revealed Text is error...
nb i dfo nottt say..which commne t by whatever ecclesiatic is just so much roo
dandruff...
but which Revealed Text is error?
if none, then...?
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re: Relativity of truth
brent,
:"I don't personally know how it
symbolizes truth being relative, other than as meaning Progressive
Revelation:"
i would say 9 doors is a good starter.
and putting this as a "historical" statement based on the comments by abu
fadl is imho far less real than seeing the abjad value.
bending or conflating threads, as is my wont, if someone does right out of
love of Kali, and someone does right out of love of Moses, and someone did
right out of love of their childwhich is shirk? and who did wrong???
now, if someone blamed Kali for the anger, Moses for their stiff-neckedness,
or their child's hunger for a theft, will their child, Kali or Moses appear
with them in the Last Day?
looking at it another way, can Truth to be said to have 4 corners? if
not...it must always be subject to interpretation from outside the
paper...intent. if we were in probate, would the intent of the testator be a
consideration? imho...yes. can the Intent of the Testator be known? only to the
extent He testifies, there is no God but God, but in the meantime, here's some
fire for prometheus, some excessive family devotion for Kali, some
organisational charts for Zeus, as a partial distribution.
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RE: Relativity of Truth
If anyone is interested I will be pleased to send a copy of my paper
"Relativism and the Baha'i Writings" presented at Irfan Colloquium at Bosch
in May 2007.
Best wishes,
Ian Kluge
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Poirier
Attorney
Sent: March 25, 2008 11:47 AM
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: Re: Relativity of Truth
Matt Haase wrote:
>>I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced
me to his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than
another word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent,
but unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept
that since God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of
the Religious Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the
Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim
Polytheism, it is true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one
scripture, it is true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is
true. I don't accept that kind of logic, personally.>>
I'm with you, Matt. Whatever wacky opinions I may express, if I don't
back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener should not attribute
these statements as having any bearing whatever on what the Baha'i Faith
stands for. That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote through his secretary:
"Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make
to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the
Word -- and the Word alone."
(From a letter dated 4 June 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to
the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada; from the Compilation, The
Individual and Teaching - Raising the Divine Call, p. 39)
Best regards
Brent
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Re: Relativity of Truth
Matt Haase wrote:
>>I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced
me to his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than
another word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent,
but unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept
that since God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of
the Religious Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the
Qur'an proclain Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim
Polytheism, it is true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one
scripture, it is true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is
true. I don't accept that kind of logic, personally.>>
I'm with you, Matt. Whatever wacky opinions I may express, if I don't
back them up with the Baha'i Writings, my listener should not attribute
these statements as having any bearing whatever on what the Baha'i Faith
stands for. That's why, I feel, the Guardian wrote through his secretary:
"Divine Truth is relative and that is why we are enjoined to constantly
refer the seeker to the Word itself -- and why any explanations we make
to ease the journey of the soul of any individual must be based on the
Word -- and the Word alone."
(From a letter dated 4 June 1957 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to
the National Spiritual Assembly of Canada; from the Compilation, The
Individual and Teaching - Raising the Divine Call, p. 39)
Best regards
Brent
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Re: Relativity of truth
On 24 Mar 2008 at 22:47, Matt Haase wrote:
> I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced
> me to his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more
> than another word to say 'progressive revelation'.
I guess you mean "meant NOTHING more than ..." ??
If religious truths were absolute, not relative, then the progressive
revelation of religious truths would be impossible. Relativism is
thus the foundation (the fundamental verity) on which progressive
revelation is built. You could say it works the other way too: if we
did not observe the progressive revelation of religious truths we
would not have to suppose that religious truth must be relative. But
it is not symmetrical: the statement "religious truth is not
absolute, but relative" is a meta-statement. It immediately
interprets and provides a framework for all Bahai truth-statements.
If a statement is absolute ("When Yahya Darabi arrived at Shiraz he
interviewed the Bab three times.") it is not a religious truth. This
statement is history: if it turns out to be wrong, that will not have
any religious significance. At most it would confirm what we already
know, that not everything stated in the Bahai writings is absolutely
true !
I think we have two kinds of 'truth' or two different things for
which we use the words true and truth. One is statements about
absolute truths: it happened or it didn't, gravity sucks or it does
not, and so on. The statments may be accurate or more or less
inaccurate (usually the latter), but what they refer to is supposed
to be a truth in the absolute sense. The second is statements about
non-absolute truths, of which religious truths are one type. Jesus
sis the Christ is an example, and "there is Shylock in us all, we go
to the theatre to see him defeated" is another. "My wife loves me."
The most important things in life relate to truths which are not
absolute.
It's like Heisenberg's principle: a truth which is absolute has no
great human significance, and a truth which has great human
significance is not absolute. An absolute truth can kill us, but we
do not feel that this gives that death great significance. If a piece
falls off an aeroplane and kills all the people on a Concord, that is
noteworthy because it is absurd. Such deaths have no Reason, and it
is absurd that a creature whom we "know" and "feel" is so much more
than mere fact, can be killed by a mere fact. In fact we are all
killed by mere facts in the end, yet we continue to maintain that our
real significance, our "truth" lies elsewhere. That "elsewhere" is
not a realm of absolutes. The modern disease of fundamentalism
consists precisely in treating the truths of the spirit as if they
belong to the realm of absolutes.
On 24 Mar 2008 at 19:08, Brent Poirier Attorney wrote:
> there are two aspects to Revelation -- the essence which remains
> unchanged from age to age, and the "non-essential" part of each
> Revelation which is subject to change in each Dispensation,
as
> the Master explains in Some Answered Questions.
Within the Bahai belief-system, we have two different ways of dealing
with the fact that we teach that Religion is one, while observing
differences. One is to say that a religious teaching has developed
from one religion to the next, it is not essential to the claim that
religion is One. Another is to say that a religious truth has always
been taught, but has been recorded in different terms, corrupted in
transmission, etc.. The latter are called essential teachings and are
supposed not to change.
Such statements have no meaning in, say, the History of religion or
the Phenomenology of Religion: in areas where truth statements are
supposed to have an absolute, factual referand, such statements are
false or unfalsifiable (ie meaningless). Nevertheless, they express a
truth which we, and many people of all religions, feel and
experience: that "being religious" is one thing, that "God" by
whatever name refers to one ineffable person. '
The teaching that "religion is One" is itself a teaching in the Bahai
Faith, but not in all religions. It is not something that the Hebrew
prophets felt or taught about the religions they encountered:
18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not
one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down
to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.
(King James Bible, 3 Kings)
> There are plenty of absolute statements in Baha'u'llah's Writings,
> though I am not sure you are saying there aren't.
I understand absolute statments about absolute matters as peripheral
to Baha'u'llah's message, and possibly wrong. And I understand
statements about truly important, spiritual matters as relative, not
absolute statements.
> I don't think that the principle of the relativity of religious truth
> means that He is asking us to see everything He writes, through that
> filter. Again, I don't think that's what you're saying.
I *do* think and
Re: Relativity of truth
On 3/24/08, Matt Haase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced me to
> his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than another
> word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent, but
> unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept that since
> God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of the Religious
> Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the Qur'an proclain
> Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim Polytheism, it is
> true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one scripture, it is
> true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is true. I don't accept
> that kind of logic, personally.
Dear Matt,
I recall the Bab saying at some point that even to say God is One is
shirk (joining partners with God.) That certainly suggests to me that
all statement about God are relative. It doesn't mean that some aren't
truer than others. Baha'u'llah discusses this question in the
Tabernacle of Unity. Manakji raised the following question:
"There are four schools of thought in the world. One school affirmeth
that all the visible worlds, from atoms to suns, constitute God
Himself and that naught can be seen but Him. Another school claimeth
that God is that Essence that must of necessity exist, that His
Messengers are the intermediaries between Him and His creatures, and
that their mission is to lead humanity unto Him. Yet another school
holdeth that the stars were created by the Necessary Being, whilst all
other things are their effect and outcome. These things continually
appear and disappear, even as the minute creatures that are generated
in a pool of water. A further school maintaineth that the Necessary
Being hath fashioned Nature through whose effect and agency all
things, from atoms to suns, appear and disappear without beginning or
end. What need then for an account or reckoning? As the grass groweth
with the coming of the rain and vanisheth thereafter, so it is with
all things. If the Prophets and the kings have instituted laws and
ordinances, the proponents of this school argue, this hath merely been
for the sake of preserving the civil order and regulating human
society. The Prophets and the kings, however, have acted in different
ways: the former have said 'God hath spoken thus' that the people
might submit and obey, whilst the latter have resorted to the sword
and the cannon. Which of these four schools is approved in the sight
of God?"
The alternatives for creation presented by Manakji include the
following; the kind of monism commonly accepted in Hinduism, the
second is a metaphysical dualism between the Creator and the creation
wherein the Prophets serve as intermediaries between the two realms.
The third alternative mentioned by Manakji wherein God is the creator
solely of the celestial realm whereas the physical world emanates from
it may strike us as a bit strange, but it is one of the alternatives
mentioned in the Dabistan and again demonstrates Manakji's dependence
on the texts associated with the school of Azar Kaivan. It represents
perhaps a rather odd formulation of Neo-platonic pantheism. The fourth
alternative is the deism commonly promoted by those influenced by
Greek philosophy.
Baha'u'llah attempts to redirect Manakji's attention to what He
considers the most vital issue in comparison to which such
metaphysical questions are of little importance: "Be anxiously
concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your
deliberations on its exigencies and requirements" and urges Manakji
to center his attention on the "Lord of Revelation" for " This is the
day of vision, for the countenance of God is shining resplendent above
the horizon of Manifestation. This is the day of hearing, for the call
of God hath been raised." He goes on to say that off these four
schools the second which regards Prophets as intermediaries between
God and creation is the closest to righteousness [taqwa, God-fearing]
and acknowledges the sublime station of the Manifestations, but
indicated there was some truth to all the other positions because all
things are manifestations of the names and attributes of God.
So while there may well be truth in all these positions not all
positions are equally true or valuable.
warmest, Susan
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Re: Relativity of truth
I don't personally view the principle of the
> relativity of religious truth as a broad statement about the nature of
> all truth, or even of all Revelation, but only about that part of
> Revelation that is subject to change by the Manifestation.
And what part of Revelation isn't subject to change by a Manifestation?
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Re: Relativity of truth
I had a conversation like this with a friend of mine, who introduced me to
his idea that the 'relativity of religious truth' meant more than another
word to say 'progressive revelation'. He presented an eloquent, but
unconvincing (to my mind) argument that boils down to the concept that since
God is the Unknowable, whatever is said about Him in all of the Religious
Scriptures is true. If the Hebrew Scriptures and the Qur'an proclain
Monotheism, it is true. If the Hindu Scriptures proclaim Polytheism, it is
true. If God condemns the belief in the Trinity in one scripture, it is
true. But if God affirms the Trinity later on, it is true. I don't accept
that kind of logic, personally.
peace,
On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Susan Maneck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > There are passages in the writings of the Guardian where he explained
> > that what he meant by the relativity of religious truth, is that
> > revealed truth is relative to the age in which it is revealed. That is,
> > the Guardian used this phrase as a synonym for "Progressive Revelation".
> >
>
> Dear Brent,
>
> Keep in mind though that the principle of Progressive Revleation also
> occurs within Dispensations.
>
> "Jesus, for example, did not limit polygamy, but abolished divorce
> except in the case of fornication; Muhammad limited the number of
> wives to four reintroducing permission for divorce; Bahá'u'lláh, Who
> was revealing His Teachings in the milieu of a Muslim society,
> introduced the Question of monogamy gradually in accordance with the
> principles of wisdom and progressive unfoldment of His purpose."
>
>(The Universal House of Justice, 1998 Apr 06, Memorandum re Wives
> of
> Baha'u'llah)
>
> warmest, Susan
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: Relativity of truth
> There are passages in the writings of the Guardian where he explained
> that what he meant by the relativity of religious truth, is that
> revealed truth is relative to the age in which it is revealed. That is,
> the Guardian used this phrase as a synonym for "Progressive Revelation".
>
Dear Brent,
Keep in mind though that the principle of Progressive Revleation also
occurs within Dispensations.
"Jesus, for example, did not limit polygamy, but abolished divorce
except in the case of fornication; Muhammad limited the number of
wives to four reintroducing permission for divorce; Bahá'u'lláh, Who
was revealing His Teachings in the milieu of a Muslim society,
introduced the Question of monogamy gradually in accordance with the
principles of wisdom and progressive unfoldment of His purpose."
(The Universal House of Justice, 1998 Apr 06, Memorandum re Wives of
Baha'u'llah)
warmest, Susan
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Re: Relativity of truth
I don't feel it's in anyway improper to say the Guardian is drawing a
logical conclusion; maybe he is. I just am unable to read his mind in
that way, or draw that inference from what he has written. But that
might be correct; though I still tend towards the "synonym" approach.
This looks to me to be yet another passage where the Guardian is using
the "relativity of religious truth" as a synonym for Progressive
Revelation; that there are two aspects to Revelation -- the essence
which remains unchanged from age to age, and the "non-essential" part of
each Revelation which is subject to change in each Dispensation, as the
Master explains in Some Answered Questions. I think Shoghi Effendi is
referring to that principle here:
"The mission of the Founder of their Faith, they conceive to be to
proclaim that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine
Revelation is continuous and progressive, that the Founders of all past
religions, though different in the non-essential aspects of their
teachings, 'abide in the same Tabernacle, soar in the same heaven, are
seated upon the same throne, utter the same speech and proclaim the same
Faith.'"
There are plenty of absolute statements in Baha'u'llah's Writings,
though I am not sure you are saying there aren't. I don't think that the
principle of the relativity of religious truth means that He is asking
us to see everything He writes, through that filter. Again, I don't
think that's what you're saying. It's just that when the Guardian says
that the proclamation of the relativity of religious truth is the
mission of Baha'u'llah; that it is a theme of the Iqan; and that it is
embodied in the design of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar; I am chary of reading
too much into the word "relative". It looks to me to just be saying,
what a Manifestation sets as a law in this Dispensation, may be annulled
in a later Dispensation. I don't personally view the principle of the
relativity of religious truth as a broad statement about the nature of
all truth, or even of all Revelation, but only about that part of
Revelation that is subject to change by the Manifestation.
Also, I don't know what you mean when you say that "truths are relative
to one another." If you get too philosophical, you may quickly lose me.
Best regards
Brent
Sen & Sonja wrote:
On 24 Mar 2008 at 3:53, Brent Poirier Attorney wrote:
There are passages in the writings of the Guardian where he explained
that what he meant by the relativity of religious truth, is that
revealed truth is relative to the age in which it is revealed. That
is, the Guardian used this phrase as a synonym for "Progressive
Revelation".
This is true, but I would rather say that the *logical implication*
of progressive revelation is that religious truth must be relative.
The Guardian is drawing a logical conclusion, rather than simply
using a synonym.
Having established that religious truth is relative, that conclusion
has more applications: truths are relative to one another for example
(when the paradigm changes, it is a switch from one coherent system
of truths to another, not just a matter of this or that religious
truth changing.
Sen
--
--
Sen McGlinn
***
Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind
the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved
Master
with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar,
the crowning institution in every Baha'i community.
(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page
108)
--
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Re: Relativity of truth
On 24 Mar 2008 at 3:53, Brent Poirier Attorney wrote:
> There are passages in the writings of the Guardian where he explained
> that what he meant by the relativity of religious truth, is that
> revealed truth is relative to the age in which it is revealed. That
> is, the Guardian used this phrase as a synonym for "Progressive
> Revelation".
This is true, but I would rather say that the *logical implication*
of progressive revelation is that religious truth must be relative.
The Guardian is drawing a logical conclusion, rather than simply
using a synonym.
Having established that religious truth is relative, that conclusion
has more applications: truths are relative to one another for example
(when the paradigm changes, it is a switch from one coherent system
of truths to another, not just a matter of this or that religious
truth changing.
Sen
--
--
Sen McGlinn
***
Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind
the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved
Master
with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar,
the crowning institution in every Baha'i community.
(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page
108)
--
--
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Relativity of truth
One of the friends mentioned: "If all truth is relative then no proof is
absolute."
There are passages in the writings of the Guardian where he explained
that what he meant by the relativity of religious truth, is that
revealed truth is relative to the age in which it is revealed. That is,
the Guardian used this phrase as a synonym for "Progressive Revelation".
For example:
"Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God
to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá'u'lláh
inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the
continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious
experience." (Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 108)
I think in that phrase he shows the point I am making.
He also writes that the Book of Certitude asserts the relativity of
religious truth, and I don't personally know of any place in that Book
where Baha'u'llah speaks of truth in a relative sense, but there is an
abundance of explanation of Progressive Revelation:
"Within a compass of two hundred pages it proclaims unequivocally the
existence and oneness of a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the
source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty;
asserts the relativity of religious truth and the continuity of Divine
Revelation . . . " (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 139)
Also, the Guardian writes that the House of Worship symbolizes the
relativity of religious truth, and I don't personally know how it
symbolizes truth being relative, other than as meaning Progressive
Revelation:
"To them will the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar symbolize the fundamental verity
underlying the Bahá'í Faith, that religious truth is not absolute but
relative, that Divine Revelation is not final but progressive."
(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 185)
This is my personal understanding.
Best regards,
Brent
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