Re: Unity and Truth
For one to entertain the Manifestation of God to make errors must
somehow believe their knowledge supersedes Theirs. If you think that I
would be worried about about your ego.
Albert
Scott Saylors wrote:
We've gone over Hikmat before. What the Manifestations do is what God instructs
them. You might recall the Bab told his secretary he could foreswear his belief
to escape after His martyrdom. Why? The obvious answer was so that the final
papers of the Bab could survive and arrive where they were supposed to go.
Baha`u'llah says late in His revelation that taqqiyih is forbidden. Why did He wait? Hikmat.
The Bab revealed Himself in careful stages to those who might wish Him ill. Why? Hikmat.
Abdu'l Baha says Truthfulness is all. Why? Because Abdu'l Baha is not a Manifestation. Abdu'l Baha's station was different. Abdu'l Baha understood that. Why? Hikmat.
Whatever you may think the Manifestations do not commit error. Why?
Hikmat.
Regards,
Scott
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 7/19/06, Tim Nolan wrote:
Gilberto,
It's not just that, it is actually connected to Bahai doctrines.
For example, check out "Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning
of Hikmat in the Baha'i Writings and History" which is Susan's paper
at
http://bahai-library.org/articles/hikmat.html
or also another paper at
http://bahai-library.org/unpubl.articles/taqiyyah.html
As much as I like and admire Susan, her views are not Baha'i doctrine.
Yes, but the above are both academic papers full of citations,
examples, quotes from and descriptions of the actions of Bahaullah,
the Bab, etc.on this issue. A practice of dissimulation is pretty
clearly associated with the Bahai faith and connected to its
principles and early history.
They aren't just refuted or couner-balanced by a single quote.
-Gilberto
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Re: Unity and Truth
At 8:10 PM -0400 7/19/06, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
Are there other passages in the Bahai writings which also use
extremely superlative terms to describe either the highest of virtues
or the worst of sins, but they are talking about something other than
honesty on the one hand, or lying on the other?
Trustworthiness
O people! The goodliest vesture in the sight of God in this day is
trustworthiness. All bounty and honour shall be the portion of the
soul that arrayeth itself with this greatest of adornments.
(Baha'u'llah - translated from Persian)
The primary characteristic of true believers is trustworthiness
whereas the primary characteristic of the rebellious is faithlessness.
(Abdu'l-Baha - translated from the Persian)
http://bahai-library.com/?file=compilation_trustworthiness
--
-.-.-.-.-
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
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Re: Unity and Truth
We've gone over Hikmat before. What the Manifestations do is what God instructs them. You might recall the Bab told his secretary he could foreswear his belief to escape after His martyrdom. Why? The obvious answer was so that the final papers of the Bab could survive and arrive where they were supposed to go. Baha`u'llah says late in His revelation that taqqiyih is forbidden. Why did He wait? Hikmat. The Bab revealed Himself in careful stages to those who might wish Him ill. Why? Hikmat. Abdu'l Baha says Truthfulness is all. Why? Because Abdu'l Baha is not a Manifestation. Abdu'l Baha's station was different. Abdu'l Baha understood that. Why? Hikmat. Whatever you may think the Manifestations do not commit error. Why? Hikmat. Regards, ScottGilberto Simpson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 7/19/06, Tim Nolan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Gilberto,> >It's not just that, it is actually connected to Bahai doctrines.>> >For example, check out "Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning> >of Hikmat in the Baha'i Writings and History" which is Susan's paper> >at>http://bahai-library.org/articles/hikmat.htmlor also another paper athttp://bahai-library.org/unpubl.articles/taqiyyah.html> As much as I like and admire Susan, her views are not Baha'i doctrine.Yes, but the above are both academic papers full of citations,examples, quotes from and descriptions of the actions of Bahaullah,the Bab, etc.on this issue. A practice of dissimulation is prettyclearly associated with the Bahai
faith and connected to itsprinciples and early history.They aren't just refuted or couner-balanced by a single quote.-GilbertoThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as:
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: Unity and Truth
On 7/19/06, Tim Nolan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gilberto,
>It's not just that, it is actually connected to Bahai doctrines.
>For example, check out "Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning
>of Hikmat in the Baha'i Writings and History" which is Susan's paper
>at
http://bahai-library.org/articles/hikmat.html
or also another paper at
http://bahai-library.org/unpubl.articles/taqiyyah.html
As much as I like and admire Susan, her views are not Baha'i doctrine.
Yes, but the above are both academic papers full of citations,
examples, quotes from and descriptions of the actions of Bahaullah,
the Bab, etc.on this issue. A practice of dissimulation is pretty
clearly associated with the Bahai faith and connected to its
principles and early history.
They aren't just refuted or couner-balanced by a single quote.
-Gilberto
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Unity and Truth
Gilberto, >It's not just that, it is actually connected to Bahai doctrines.>For example, check out "Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning>of Hikmat in the Baha'i Writings and History" which is Susan's paper>at As much as I like and admire Susan, her views are not Baha'i doctrine. Here is an aspect of Baha'i doctrine: "TRUTHFULNESS. Truthfulness is the foundation of all the virtues of the world of humanity. Without truthfulness, progress and success in all of the worlds of God are impossible for a soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also become realized." (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 384) I agree with Margaret that real unity is impossible without truthfulness. However, it is possible to
tell the truth with courtesy and kindness; it is not usually necessary to be harsh. Tim Nolan
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Try it free.
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Re: Unity and Truth
This is how a Manifestation of God, the Prophet Abraham, gradually
discloses His mission:
006.076
YUSUFALI: When the night covered him over, He saw a star: He said: "This
is my Lord." But when it set, He said: "I love not those that set."
PICKTHAL: When the night grew dark upon him he beheld a star. He said:
This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: I love not things that set.
SHAKIR: So when the night over-shadowed him, he saw a star; said he: Is
this my Lord? So when it set, he said: I do not love the setting ones.
006.077
YUSUFALI: When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: "This is my
Lord." But when the moon set, He said: "unless my Lord guide me, I shall
surely be among those who go astray."
PICKTHAL: And when he saw the moon uprising, he exclaimed: This is my
Lord. But when it set, he said: Unless my Lord guide me, I surely shall
become one of the folk who are astray.
SHAKIR: Then when he saw the moon rising, he said: Is this my Lord? So
when it set, he said: If my Lord had not guided me I should certainly be
of the erring people.
006.078
YUSUFALI: When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: "This is my
Lord; this is the greatest (of all)." But when the sun set, he said: "O my
people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.
PICKTHAL: And when he saw the sun uprising, he cried: This is my Lord!
This is greater! And when it set he exclaimed: O my people! Lo! I am free
from all that ye associate (with Him).
SHAKIR: Then when he saw the sun rising, he said: Is this my Lord? Is this
the greatest? So when it set, he said: O my people! surely I am clear of
what you set up (with Allah).
006.079
YUSUFALI: "For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who
created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to
Allah."
PICKTHAL: Lo! I have turned my face toward Him Who created the heavens and
the earth, as one by nature upright, and I am not of the idolaters.
SHAKIR: Surely I have turned myself, being upright, wholly to Him Who
originated the heavens and the earth, and I am not of the polytheists.
-From the Quran 6:76-79
--
Regards,
Iskandar
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Re: Unity and Truth
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:. But there are more potentialjustifications for bending the truth in the Bahaivalue system. -Gilberto Actually Gilberto, I would offer that there is more freedom to exercise one's conscience within the Faith; but no room whatever for personal opinio/interpretation to influence the actual the organic integrity of the principles of the Faith. Richard. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is
not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-stBaha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public -
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Re: Unity and Truth
Are there other passages in the Bahai writings which also use
extremely superlative terms to describe either the highest of virtues
or the worst of sins, but they are talking about something other than
honesty on the one hand, or lying on the other?
"The worst human quality and the most great sin is backbiting."
--'Abdu'l-Baha, cited in J.E. Esslemont, "Baha'u'llah and the New
Era," p. 83.
-Gilberto
On 7/19/06, Michael Alcorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Consider that the worst of qualities and most odious of attributes, which is
the foundation of all evil, is lying. No worse or more blameworthy quality
than this can be imagined to exist; it is the destroyer of all human
perfections, and the cause of innumerable vices. There is no worse
characteristic than this; it is the foundation of all evils. Notwithstanding
all this, if a doctor consoles a sick man by saying: "Thank God you are
better, and there is hope of your recovery," though these words are contrary
to the truth, yet they may become the consolation of the patient and the
turning-point of the illness. This is not blameworthy.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 321)
- Original Message -
From: "Gilberto Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: Unity and Truth
I'm trying to see if it
is possible to come up with a formulation which is an accurate
description of the Bahai attitude on this subject.
-Gilberto
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"There are no poets"
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Re: Unity and Truth
Consider that the worst of qualities and most odious of attributes, which is
the foundation of all evil, is lying. No worse or more blameworthy quality
than this can be imagined to exist; it is the destroyer of all human
perfections, and the cause of innumerable vices. There is no worse
characteristic than this; it is the foundation of all evils. Notwithstanding
all this, if a doctor consoles a sick man by saying: "Thank God you are
better, and there is hope of your recovery," though these words are contrary
to the truth, yet they may become the consolation of the patient and the
turning-point of the illness. This is not blameworthy.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 321)
- Original Message -
From: "Gilberto Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies"
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: Unity and Truth
I'm trying to see if it
is possible to come up with a formulation which is an accurate
description of the Bahai attitude on this subject.
-Gilberto
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Re: Unity and Truth
I'm not sure where the conversation is headed. I'm trying to see if it
is possible to come up with a formulation which is an accurate
description of the Bahai attitude on this subject.
For most religions, there is a common set of values which are "good
things" and which should be maximized as much as people in society
and in our lives. But when these various good things compete,
different religions may prioritize the values differently.
For example, in the Jain faith, the sanctity of all life is valued
very highly.. to the point that religious Jains might carry around
special brooms so that they don't accidentally step on a bug when they
walk. It would be fair to say that most other religions don't
necessarily put the same value on life.
In a similar way, I know of one Sufi tariqat where a specific
requirement of joining that order is to never ever lie. But in Islam
in general there is the explicit idea in Islamic law that lying is
permitted in certain cases, for example, when it is required to save a
life.
Since the Bahai faith comes out of Islam, combined with Persian
cultural attitudes, it sort of takes this idea of permissible lies and
runs with it. [And one can look at Susan's paper on hikmat and
dissimulation or The Practice of Taqiyyah (Dissimulation)
in the Bábí and Bahá'í Religions by Sepehr Manuchehri for more
detailed discussions]
In each paper there are examples of specific behaviors by specific
groups of people (for example a group of Jews who became Bahais and
joined the Presbyterian Church) and you might dismiss that as the
action of individual Bahais, but their behavior is rooted in and
justified by certain Bahai concepts.
Or consider Abdul-Baha's example in SAQ of the doctor who lies to his
patient in order to give him hope of a cure...
So just as in any non-pacifist religion the sanctity of life is not
valued in the same radical way that it is seen in the Jain faith,
telling the candid unvarnished truth is not the highest value in the
Bahai faith.
That's not to say that Bahais are generally dishonest, or that Bahais
like to lie, or anything of that nature. But there are more potential
justifications for bending the truth in the Bahai
value system.
-Gilberto
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Re: Unity and Truth
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
What I'm saying is that there are *some* situations where we actually
are presented with that choice.
I agree and much more than people realize, which is why I personally
believe--and I believe the Universal House supports--that you cannot
have genuine unity based on lies and falsehoods without sacrificing
justice and virtually ever other Bahai spiritual principle. But if
people choose to conceptualize the polarized choice that you make, there
is little choice but to put truth first for unity in the long run.
Unity can never be achieved by ignoring other spiritual principles and
truthfulness is the foundation for all other virtues. It's extremely
short-sighted, in my view, to think that falsehoods can ever really
support unity, unless the vision of unity we have in mind in something
akin to Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. Lying can always be
rationalized for the sake of expediency; rarely is it ever wise.
Besides, the Bahai Faith is hardly so fragile that it must depend upon
lies for unity's sake, although I never ceased to be amazed by the
number of people who act as if it is. Perhaps, they are only attempting
to protect themselves and their own misdeeds. Marleen
Associated with this invitation is the expectation that all believers
will make a sincere and persistent effort to eradicate those aspects of
their conduct which are not in conformity with Divine Law. It is through
such adherence to the Bahá'í Teachings that a true and enduring unity of
the diverse elements of the Bahá'í community is achieved and safeguarded.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1995 Sept 11, Homosexuality)
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Re: Unity and Truth
On 7/17/06, Tim Nolan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Gilberto,
I think it's a mistake to focus on Jamal Effendi. As far as I know he died
many years ago, so it isn't possible to ask him why he did this or that. If
he was dishonest, that reflects on him, not on the Baha'i Faith.
I don't think I'm focusing on Jamal Effendi. I just think he's a
spectacular example. He tried to convert Muslims to the Bahai faith by
pretending to be a Sufi Shaykh.
>But there are multiple examples of encouraging a certain amount of
ambiguity when >it comes to religious identity based on Bahai texts and
teachings.
I am not a scholar, and I don't know Arabic or Persian, so I can't respond
to this in detail. The Baha'i Faith teaches us to be honest and truthful.
If individual Baha'is fall short of that, well we all have weaknesses.
It's not just that, it is actually connected to Bahai doctrines.
For example, check out "Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning
of Hikmat in the Baha'i Writings and History" which is Susan's paper
at
http://bahai-library.org/articles/hikmat.html
"Hikmat" or "Wisdom" is a concept which takes on a specific meaning in
the Bahai faith. Susan says:
"Observing wisdom' in practice often involved acts which would not
ordinarily be regarded as praiseworthy.' These included: denying or
misleading people regarding one's Baha'i identity, concealing
inconvenient aspects of the Baha'i teachings, and compromising certain
Baha'i principles."
>if there is a situation where candor and forthrightness are in
>conflict with unity, a Bahai might be more likely than the next person
>to choose unity.
> It seems to me that you are positing two choices: either one can be candid,
or one can strive for unity, with the implication that putting unity first
will sometimes entail being dishonest. I don't see it that way.
What I'm saying is that there are *some* situations where we actually
are presented with that choice.
-G
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Re: Unity and Truth
Hi Gilberto, I think it's a mistake to focus on Jamal Effendi. As far as I know he died many years ago, so it isn't possible to ask him why he did this or that. If he was dishonest, that reflects on him, not on the Baha'i Faith. >But there are multiple examples of encouraging a certain amount of ambiguity when >it comes to religious identity based on Bahai texts and teachings. I am not a scholar, and I don't know Arabic or Persian, so I can't respond to this in detail. The Baha'i Faith teaches us to be honest and truthful. If individual Baha'is fall short of that, well we all have weaknesses. >if there is a situation where candor and forthrightness are in>conflict with unity, a Bahai might be more likely than the next person>to choose unity. It
seems to me that you are positing two choices: either one can be candid, or one can strive for unity, with the implication that putting unity first will sometimes entail being dishonest. I don't see it that way. First of all, candor is not always the best way. This is well known by any husband whose wife asks him, "Do I look fat?" It is possible to have unity as the highest priority while still being honest. Being truthful does not mean one must always say exactly what he thinks. In my view, honesty should be balanced with courtesy. Tim>he United States, many people are not ready to accept someTim>fundamental Baha'i principles, such as obedience and submissiveness Tim>to God's laws.Gilberto>Do you mean, accept in the sense of believing in those principles andGilberto>becoming Bahais? No, I mean
many people in the U.S. are not ready to accept the principle of obedience and submissiveness to God, whatever the religious foundation. This is a principle of Islam, Christianity and Judaism, as well as of the Baha'i Faith. I agree that if I pretended to be Christian, that would be dishonest on my part. As to what others do, that's not my concern. Tim Nolan
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Re: Unity and Truth
On 7/15/06, Tim Nolan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Gilberto, >I think certain omissions are definitely the moral equivalent of lying. >In the Bahai case we are talking about Bahai preacher not telling their > audience that they were a different religion. I don't know the facts about Jamal Effendi, so I cannot comment on that. http://www.breacais.demon.co.uk/abs/bsr09/9B2a_momen_jamal.htm We do not have a precise description of the teaching methods of Jamál Effendi but we can put together a picture from the evidence to hand. Among the pieces of evidence that we have are the following: 1. Jamál Effendi's appearance: we know that Jamál Effendi dressed in the attire of a Muslim holy man, more specifically that of a Sufi shaykh of the Mawlaví Sufi order (the Mawlaví or Mevlevi Order of Sufís follow the very influential Iranian mystic of the 13th century, Jalálu'd-Dín Rúmí). In a traditional society such as that of Muslim India, a person's appearance classifies that person: you are as you appear. Thus, if Jamál Effendi appeared as a Sufi shaykh, then he was a Sufi shaykh to everyone around him. 2. Jamál Effendi's name: Jamál Effendi was known by such names as Jamálu'd-Dín Sháh[66] or Darvísh Jamalu'd-Dín Bábí.[67] The designation "Sháh" is a title typically taken by Sufi shaykhs. 3. Events in Mandalay: 'Azízu'lláh Sulaymání records the following information on the authority of Mafúal-aqq 'Ilmí, one of the prominent Bahá'ís of India, who in turn learned this from Khalífa Muhammad Yúnis of Mandalay. In the town of Mandalay alone, Jamál Effendi had made some six thousand people followers of Bahá'u'lláh. In accordance with the exigencies of prudence (hikmat), however, he had not told them that this meant a new religious dispensation (a new Sharí`ah). They were under the impression that they were still under the Islamic dispensation. In the time of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Mírzá Malram came to Mandalay and endeavoured to guide them to the fact that a new religious dispensation had arisen. Some four thousand of these persons were extremely dismayed and turned upon Mírzá Malram and attacked him – he was only saved by the speedy arrival of the British police. Some two thousand, however, remained Bahá'ís. However, even if a Baha'i person did something that was not straightforward, or was dishonest, that would reflect on him or her, not on the Baha'i Faith. If we were talking about Bahais who cheat on their income taxes I would agree with you 100%. But there are multiple examples of encouraging a certain amount of ambiguity when it comes to religious identity based on Bahai texts and teachings. (e.g. taqiyah or hikmat) >But there are also a number of situations where a member of a different faith >would take a more "activist" or uncompromising approach where a Bahai >would strive to fit in and obey. The Baha'i teachings emphasize that the purpose of religion is unity and harmony, that contention is forbidden. According to the Baha'i writings, the way to teach the Baha'i Faith is though friendliness and humility, not by "in your face" confrontation. Another principle is that Baha'is should present the Faith as if giving a gift; if the other person refuses it, the Baha'i should let him follow his own path. I think that's fine. I think a lot of religious communities could come to a broad agreement that certain values: love, compassion, peace, unity, truth, life, etc. are important and ought to be promoted. But the difference betweeen religions is in what decisions they endorse when two good things seem to conflict. Unity as a value is very very very important in the Bahai faith. So if there is a situation where candor and forthrightness are in conflict with unity, a Bahai might be more likely than the next person to choose unity. In general, in the United States, many people are not ready to accept some fundamental Baha'i principles, such as obedience and submissiveness to God's laws. Do you mean, accept in the sense of believing in those principles and becoming Bahais? If I were to initiate discussion on this topic, right at the start of a relationship, some people might put up mental walls, since they don't want to hear about this. If someone asked me a direct question, I hope I would give a direct, honest answer. For me personally, the "slickness" in the Bahai faith when it comes to explaining the religious beliefs is something which encourages me to put up mental walls. But I might not bring up a challenging matter right at the beginning of a relationship. If it is truly a matter of being silent about a certain aspect and waiting beofre bringing it up at all, but one is specifically creating a misleading impression that's different. For example, Jamal Effendi specifically gave the impression of being a Sufi from a particular Sufi order. It would be as if a Bahai man or women went to a mostly Catholic country and they carried rosaries, and were dressed like a priest or a nun
Re: Unity and Truth
Hi Gilberto, >I think certain omissions are definitely the moral equivalent of lying. >In the Bahai case we are talking about Bahai preacher not telling their audience that>they were a different religion. I don't know the facts about Jamal Effendi, so I cannot comment on that. However, even if a Baha'i person did something that was not straightforward, or was dishonest, that would reflect on him or her, not on the Baha'i Faith. If a Muslim behaves in a dishonest way, does that diminish the truth of Islam? >But there are also a number of situations where a member of a different faith>would take a more "activist" or uncompromising approach where a Bahai>would strive to fit in and obey. The Baha'i teachings emphasize that the purpose of
religion is unity and harmony, that contention is forbidden. According to the Baha'i writings, the way to teach the Baha'i Faith is though friendliness and humility, not by "in your face" confrontation. Another principle is that Baha'is should present the Faith as if giving a gift; if the other person refuses it, the Baha'i should let him follow his own path. In general, in the United States, many people are not ready to accept some fundamental Baha'i principles, such as obedience and submissiveness to God's laws. If I were to initiate discussion on this topic, right at the start of a relationship, some people might put up mental walls, since they don't want to hear about this. If someone asked me a direct question, I hope I would give a direct, honest answer. But I might not bring up a challenging matter right at the
beginning of a relationship. Here is an example. The Baha'i teachings say that homosexual relatioships are immoral and are not allowed for Baha'is. I live in a small city that has a large (several hundred) and very vocal homosexual community. If I were just beginning to talk about the Baha'i Faith with someone, I would not bring up the Baha'i teachings on homosexual relations, at the beginning. If the other person asked me a direct question, I would feel obliged to say that the Baha'i Faith regards homosexual relations as immoral and forbidden to Baha'is. But I see no reason to begin a conversation with that.Tim Nolan
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Re: Unity and Truth
Dear Gilberto, I think the main problem to you for understand why bahá'ís say Bahá'u'lláh is the Promised One of all Ages is to understand the bahá'í concept of Progressive Revelation, and the bahá'í concept of Resurrection. Try to find these terms in bahá'í texts, you will found the answer. Hasan
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Re: Unity and Truth
On 7/13/06, Tim Nolan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Gilberto,
>This is a part of what makes me think that the Bahais value unity more
>than truth. Its as if the important thing is to bring people together
>under the Administrative Order by saying what they want to hear.
[The Baha'i writings] do instruct us to speak
kindly, to use mild words at first,
and not to state things - at first - which are too challenging to people.
I've read at least a few accounts of that process in different places
which definitely cross the line, and I think certain omissions are
definitely the moral equivalent of lying.
For example when Jamal Effendi spread the Bahai faith in some Muslim
parts of Asia, he gave people the impression that Bahaullah was just a
Muslim Sufi Shaykh and it wasn't until later that he explained that he
thought the Islamic dispensation was finished.
Of course, if a person expresses belief in Baha'u'llah and wants to join the
Baha'i community, then there are certain basic principles they must accept.
But there is no need to challenge people too severely in the beginning of a
relationship.
But "challenge" gives the impression that you are talking about an
issue of difficulty. If a Muslim preacher waited to explain Wahdat
al-Wujud that would be "not challenging" or if a Christian waited to
explain the difference between transubstantiation and
consubstantiation that would be "not challenging". In the Bahai case
we are talking about Bahai preacher not telling their audience that
they were a different religion.
Abdu'l Baha is our perfect exemplar of how to teach the Baha'i Faith. When
He traveled in North America, in 1912, he told a synagogue full of Jews that
they ought to accept the truth of Jesus and of Muhammad. Do you think that
is what the Jewish people wanted to hear?
Perhaps I misspoke. There have definitely been some occasions where
Bahais are willing to challenge society with their beliefs. But there
are also a number of situations where a member of a different faith
would take a more "activist" or uncompromising approach where a Bahai
would strive to fit in and obey.
G
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Unity and Truth
Hi Gilberto, >This is a part of what makes me think that the Bahais value unity more>than truth. Its as if the important thing is to bring people together>under the Administrative Order by saying what they want to hear. Real unity must be based on truth, in my opinion. True unity cannot have a foundation of dishonesty. The Baha'i writings do not encourage us to say whatever people want to hear. Those writings do instruct us to speak kindly, to use mild words at first, and not to state things - at first - which are too challenging to people. Of course, if a person expresses belief in Baha'u'llah and wants to join the Baha'i community, then there are certain basic principles they must accept. But there is no need to challenge people too severely in the beginning of a relationship. Abdu'l Baha is our
perfect exemplar of how to teach the Baha'i Faith. When He traveled in North America, in 1912, he told a synagogue full of Jews that they ought to accept the truth of Jesus and of Muhammad. Do you think that is what the Jewish people wanted to hear? He told Americans that black and white people are one family, that they should live together as friends, and they should even marry one another. That's not novel today, but in 1912, that was shocking. The Baha'i teachings say we should be truthful, but kind and loving at the same time. Tim Nolan
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