[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Interesting points, Daniel. I'll need to think it through. The comment about the interval of a (minor) third between the top two courses is true for a normal 13c lute, but not so for the German Continuo Theorbo, which does not have the chanterelle. Yet that doesn't matter any more once you've learned the fretboard by heart. But when comparing theorboes - Italian and German Continuo - as opposed to lutes, I doubt if the bass lines would be so different, considering the number of open strings. I consider that the major advantage, that basses are quite the same on the chitarrone and the baroque lute, e. g. //a is E and it's the 9th course on both instruments. Plus, as Benjamin argues, you don't have the confusion of re-entrant tuning to complicate things. Which doesn't matter any more once you've learned the chitarrone fretboard by heart. And while it is OK to use an Italian instrument for German baroque music (it was definitely used, as Tim Burris has pointed out), it is less plausible using a German instrument on anything other than German music. Is that in any way crucial? When playing continuo, you want to comfortably produce the sound required, i. e. of the theorbo. I doubt that the sound, if at all, differs because of the _tuning_. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Hi Daniel, Actually, on the German theorbo there is no high f', so the top interval is still a 4th, like on other continuo instruments. Also, because the 'normal' baroque tuning that we have in our minds (a d f a d f) is symmetrical - that is to say that the tuning of the top three strings reproduces itself exactly on the lower 3 strings of the petit jeu once we allow for octave equivalence - we only have to learn the fingerings for scales, melodic fragments, chord shapes, etc. one time (and only on 3 strings!) and then just repeat this knowledge lower down - and all of this is directly transferable to the German theorbo. This is in contrast to the other giraffe instrument tunings (Archlute: g c f a d g, It. Th: a d g b e a), which are *not* symmetrical, and thus, even though they may have one less internal interval then the d-minor tuning, they require contending with a greater number of open pitches (or as I call them, conceptual starting bas(s)es - sorry for the pun), and this is actually what proves more difficult in the end: indeed, each of these has 5 different open pitches as opposed to the d-minor tuning's 3. So even if, as you say, there is one more interval to deal with in the d-minor tuning than in archlute or Italian theorbo tuning (the latter is actually much more complicated than this due to the re-entrance), d-minor is still much more straghtforward conceptually. That said, the *most* important point, and the main thrust of what Weiss, Baron, and myself are saying (if I may put myself in such illustrious company with tongue firmly placed in cheek), is that if you are a d-minor player anyway, you can just re-use the tuning you already know for continuo, and not have to totally relearn the fretboard - and this is obviously by far the simplest thing to do! Best, BN On 26/11/2007, Daniel Shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob: I did go through a lot of the same questioning a year ago as I was having my first continuo instrument built for me. I did enjoy Benjamin's article and was tempted by the supposed ease at chord forms and harmony. 13 course Baroque lute is my primary solo instrument and there was a definite appeal. The primary argument against, made by more senior and experienced mentors, was that the interval of a third between the top two courses can make counterpoint and voice leading much more difficult. Thus, If you wanted to add a small melodic interjection between two phrases, you have to contend, in each key, with the fact that there are three different interval structures between strings, (fourth, minor third and major third). There are basically only two on a normal archlute, fourths and a major third, and your neither your bass lines nor your treble improvisations normally cross over this divide. Most stay pretty much to one side or the other. Thus when you hear an idea in your head you can often finger it intuitively. On baroque lute each moving bass line is fingered differently in each key as it crosses the strings. Other reason I settled against a d minor continuo instrument: much longer string length for a roman lute (80 cm or more) which is tough for my stubby hands. DS On Nov 24, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Rob wrote: Actually, I've been giving it a lot of thought as I have a theorbo on order from Malcolm Prior, being made right now, and due to be stuffed down my chimney by Santa. At first I just asked for an Italian-style instrument, and we settled on the Koch at 86cms. Then I started getting into the idea of the d minor tuning without the chanterelle. Malcolm and I looked at various supposed 'Deutsche Theorboes', and Andreas Schlegel and others mentioned the very same Koch we had chosen for our Italian model. I can't afford two theorboes (few people can) so it seems a good compromise would be the Koch, with which I could change tunings - obviously not in the same gig :-) It seems a period of experimentation lies ahead. I'm just wondering what your experience of Dm continuo is, pros and cons, what works, what doesn't. Do you play more melodic counterpoint to the melody, or arpeggios? Is there a different overall feel as compared to accompanying the same music on an Italian tuning? Do you play without a chanterelle? Etc, Rob www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: http://www.luthiste.com --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
EXCUSE THE CAPITAL LETTERS. On 26/11/2007, Mathias R=F6sel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Interesting points, Daniel. I'll need to think it through. The comment about the interval of a (minor) third between the top two courses is true for a normal 13c lute, but not so for the German Continuo Theorbo, which does not have the chanterelle. Yet that doesn't matter any more once you've learned the fretboard by heart. I TOTALLY AGREE Plus, as Benjamin argues, you don't have the confusion of re-entrant tuning to complicate things. Which doesn't matter any more once you've learned the chitarrone fretboard by heart. I TOTALLY AGREE To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: http://www.luthiste.com --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Dear Rob and Others, On 2007-11-26, at 09:44, Rob wrote: There would of course be no possibility of playing the Italian solo repertoire on the German instrument, but I personally have no interest in learning that repertoire, although I like listening to it. The Italian solo theorbo repertoire (Kapsperger, Pacinini, Castaldi, even Pittoni) is rather different period then the ''German theorbo'' time -- no conflict in most programs played. And while it is OK to use an Italian instrument for German baroque music (it was definitely used, as Tim Burris has pointed out), it is less plausible using a German instrument on anything other than German music. As far as the ''German theorbo'' is concerned, its popularity was probably restricted temporarily and georaphically to Saxony and to Weiss students and enthusiasts. But the d-m lute was played for almost 150 years -- from Ballard prints to Hagen or Kohaut at least in a large part of Europe. Italy? Why Pierre Gautier was published in Rome 1638? How popular was teaching of a Frenchmen Julien Blovin leaving in Rome somehow in the second half of the XVIIthC., whose hand is present in several d-m lute manuscripts? Who was the scribe of the mysterious tablature with several Weiss pieces and an inscription ''Venetijs. 7. 7br. 1712'' (now F-Pn Rés. Vmc ms. 61)? Try to compare it with the number of know Italian sources in tablature of archlute music. Beside of these few facts which comes to my mind at the moment, the rest of Europe (I know little about Spain) played d-m lute as a solo instrument. It seems unimaginable people were not using it for songs or small chamber music. Benjamin argues that Weiss's presence in Italy indicates that at least one player was using dm tuning, however it is not certain that Weiss had developed his 'sans chanterelle' tuning whilst there. If not, what was Weiss playing when sitting in with Scarlatti's orchestral band? Nowbody will ever know. But I have in front of me the pages from Scarlatti's ''Tolomeo et Alessandro...'' of 1711 with a 'Liuto solo' fragment. A very simple 'Alberti Bass' like part in fast sixteenth notes, accompaning traverso(!) flute and a soprano, which can be played on virtually anything. It seems Scarlatti made a gesture to the famous young man from a northern country, but had no idea of the instrument possibilities and made no efforts to learn them. I know of no other musical proofs of Weiss activities while in Rome (plus some of his solos), of course beside of literary and other evidence... Had the swan-necked so-called theorbo come into existence during Weiss's Italian trip, 1710-14? Seems a bit early to me. I'm sure someone reading this will know when swans flew in to the scene? So, if Weiss still just had his lute, was he playing continuo at all, and if he was, did he use an Italian-tuned instrument? And did the problems he encountered lead to his development of the German Continuo Theorbo when he got back to Germany? Or did he create it when in Rome? Provoking questions for which there are no answers, until some famous musicologist with a fondness towards lute will get financing for a serious research in Roman archives and focused on the musical establishement of the Polish court of Maria Casimira Sobieski. So, there are a lot of questions, and, as I say, I have not yet convinced myself one way or another. But one thought keeps bugging me: Weiss was by far the greatest composer for the baroque lute, and we know that he spent a lot of his time as a continuo player. We also know the tuning he used. Baron states that it is the common tuning of theorboes in Germany. So how many of us are actually doing it? Probably fewer than half a dozen... Almost like playing Dowland on guitars... www.rmguitar.info For playing full time continuo in a professional orchestra one can tune anyhow, even in diminished FIFTH, if that's effective for him/her. Such places/positions were then and are few now, very demanding and needing strong specialization. Doing such job, in my opinion, is a disaster to a 'normal' lute playing. But for me more important is the way most people were accompanning on the lute during XVII/XVIIIth centuries, during the time the d-m tuning was an obvious choice for solos -- I'm thinking of continuo songs and chamber music. With reference to Benjamin Narvey's article, there is more documentation (sources) on playing continuo on a d-m lute, beside of Perrine and Weiss/Baron. Passing over few debatable assumptions, I like his elegant prose and specially the main arguments. All in all, the question of continuo on the d-m lute is a subject of the future, I think. Just imagine if you'd start playing lute from the 11th or the 13th course instrument... Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
On Nov 26, 2007, at 7:20 AM, Jerzy Zak wrote: ...for me more important is the way most people were accompanning on the lute during XVII/XVIIIth centuries, during the time the d-m tuning was an obvious choice for solos -- I'm thinking of continuo songs and chamber music. ...Just imagine if you'd start playing lute from the 11th or the 13th course instrument... If lute students first began on the lute in Dm tuning, as presumably many of them did in the 17th and 18th centuries, would it not have been natural for them to play continuo in that same tuning? Baron speaks of the inconvenience of having to change to another tuning for BC playing, which implies that changing to old tuning for BC was an option in his day, but an undesirable one from his point of view as a 13-c Baroque lutenist. The fact is you can play continuo on anything, from a small guitar to a theorbo so large that the guitar would almost fit inside it, and still be historically valid one way or another. I think if we're to take Baron's advice, we should concentrate our continuo efforts on the instrument and the tuning we know best, whatever that may be. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Thanks Jurek. It seems that a few players use dm tuning for continuo. I once saw Imamura accompanying singers on a 13c lute. It sounded great. But so far I haven't seen anyone perform in dm without the chanterelle, as mentioned by Baron. Apart from Tim Burris and now Benjamin Narvey, who else does? Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 November 2007 00:58 To: baroque Lutelist Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online Thanks to Benjamin for such an interesting article. Hopefully it will stimulate discussion here. Does anyone play continuo on baroque lute? If it's not strictly Italian (and sometimes even then) I play continuo on d-m more often then on any other lute. For German music seems the most obvious, for an ''archlute music'' the sound efect is almost the same -- just personal choice (and joy). Jurek ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
From the deep and faded, dusty vaults of my memory, I seem to recall reading that Kuhnau bought two Gallichon's for St Thomas's in Leipzig, which were still there when Bach took the post. Is that right, or am I drifting helplessly towards senility? Interesting point about the similarity of tuning, Martin. I never thought of that. Rob www.rmguitar.info _ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 November 2007 16:49 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'baroque Lutelist' Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online Note that the top three courses of the D tuned Gallichon/Mandora are the same as this 'german' theorbo in Dm. Coincidence? - maybe, since the large A tuned Gallichon (string length c 95cm) seems to have been the usual professional continuo instrument of this family with the smaller instruments (say mid 60s - mid 70s) being amateur instruments. Advantage of the G/M is, of course, a fully chromatic stopped (ie no over-ringing) bass from D (or A, for the large instrument). Kuhnau thought they were ideal, especially for ensuring the bowed basses entered on the beat. MH Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Jurek. It seems that a few players use dm tuning for continuo. I once saw Imamura accompanying singers on a 13c lute. It sounded great. But so far I haven't seen anyone perform in dm without the chanterelle, as mentioned by Baron. Apart from Tim Burris and now Benjamin Narvey, who else does? Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 November 2007 00:58 To: baroque Lutelist Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online Thanks to Benjamin for such an interesting article. Hopefully it will stimulate discussion here. Does anyone play continuo on baroque lute? If it's not strictly Italian (and sometimes even then) I play continuo on d-m more often then on any other lute. For German music seems the most obvious, for an ''archlute music'' the sound efect is almost the same -- just personal choice (and joy). Jurek ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html _ Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTEydmViNG02BF9TAzIxMTQ3MTcxOTAEc2VjA 21haWwEc2xrA3RhZ2xpbmU it now. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] From the deep and faded, dusty vaults of my memory, I seem to recall reading that Kuhnau bought two Gallichon's for St Thomas's in Leipzig, which were still there when Bach took the post. Is that right, or am I drifting helplessly towards senility? The former (I am not sure about them still being there though...). RT Interesting point about the similarity of tuning, Martin. I never thought of that. Rob www.rmguitar.info _ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 November 2007 16:49 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'baroque Lutelist' Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online Note that the top three courses of the D tuned Gallichon/Mandora are the same as this 'german' theorbo in Dm. Coincidence? - maybe, since the large A tuned Gallichon (string length c 95cm) seems to have been the usual professional continuo instrument of this family with the smaller instruments (say mid 60s - mid 70s) being amateur instruments. Advantage of the G/M is, of course, a fully chromatic stopped (ie no over-ringing) bass from D (or A, for the large instrument). Kuhnau thought they were ideal, especially for ensuring the bowed basses entered on the beat. MH Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Jurek. It seems that a few players use dm tuning for continuo. I once saw Imamura accompanying singers on a 13c lute. It sounded great. But so far I haven't seen anyone perform in dm without the chanterelle, as mentioned by Baron. Apart from Tim Burris and now Benjamin Narvey, who else does? Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 November 2007 00:58 To: baroque Lutelist Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online Thanks to Benjamin for such an interesting article. Hopefully it will stimulate discussion here. Does anyone play continuo on baroque lute? If it's not strictly Italian (and sometimes even then) I play continuo on d-m more often then on any other lute. For German music seems the most obvious, for an ''archlute music'' the sound efect is almost the same -- just personal choice (and joy). Jurek ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html _ Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTEydmViNG02BF9TAzIxMTQ3MTcxOTAEc2VjA 21haWwEc2xrA3RhZ2xpbmU it now. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Great to see it has stimulated discussion! :-) Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Are Vidar Boye Hansen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 November 2007 16:36 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online Thanks to Benjamin for such an interesting article. Hopefully it will stimulate discussion here. Does anyone play continuo on baroque lute? Yepp. Me too! Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Do you play more melodic counterpoint to the melody, or arpeggios? I'm way not as accomplished an expert as you are, but yes, I try play melodic counterpoint to the melody. Success more often than not depends on day's form B) Is there a different overall feel as compared to accompanying the same music on an Italian tuning? If that means vieil ton of lutes, no it's the same to me. However, chitarrone is a world apart. Do you play without a chanterelle? No. 1. Can't afford another theorbo so as to play the way suggested by Baron. 2. Unwilling to restring the swan neck. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Dm continuo - Narvey article online
Thanks to Benjamin for such an interesting article. Hopefully it will stimulate discussion here. Does anyone play continuo on baroque lute? If it's not strictly Italian (and sometimes even then) I play continuo on d-m more often then on any other lute. For German music seems the most obvious, for an ''archlute music'' the sound efect is almost the same -- just personal choice (and joy). Jurek ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
