[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Mathias, I agree Martyn --- On Sat, 17/3/12, Mathias Roesel wrote: From: Mathias Roesel Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: "'baroque-lute mailing-list'" Date: Saturday, 17 March, 2012, 10:42 Dear Martyn, Wolfgang Wolff the younger is indeed attested to have died in the late 16th century (1591, to be precise), but that implies that he probably did not rebuild this lute himself, as double headed lutes became fashionable only later. One may wonder whether or not the soundboard with its unique barring (three fan bars on the treble side, slanted J-bar joined by one fan bar on the bass side) was replaced. It also implies that small lutes of this size were lutes of choice when it came to rebuilding. Not the only possible choice, though, admittedly. According to Mary Burwell's teacher, the French first accepted the double headed lute, but later rejected it. I wonder how many years passed between first and later. Pierre Gaultier (1638) clearly requires a lute whose 9th course can be stopped on the fret board (although it sounds well to my ears on the 12c lute as well), but I haven't found other French music of the time, where that is so. It can be played comfortably on a 12c lute, and so it was e.g. by Jean Campbell (Panmure 8). The vocal lines, or singing quality, is much more prominent when played on this small lute with its 1st course in g', e.g. in the written out doubles with their almost continuous lines, or as well any piece that uses the upper register. Mathias > -Urspruengliche Nachricht- > Von: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > Auftrag von Martyn Hodgson > Gesendet: Freitag, 16. Maerz 2012 13:39 > An: baroque-lute mailing-list; Mathias Roesel > Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne > Anthony Bailes CD > > >Dear Mathias, > >Interesting. As said, I don't think any reasonably sized lute is >'wrong': it's more a matter of what might have been generally expected >at the particular time. > >My comments relate principally to French lute music of the mid/late >17th century (as on Anthony Bailes's CD) so other schools and periods >such as those you mention (Mace and early 17th century French >lutenists) may well have used the size of lute you prefer for this >repertoire; such as the double headed Wolf lute (late 16th century? >original) with stopped strings at 63cm. > >One other problem with using the 1722 Wenger instrument for earlier >French repertoire is that the barring in the lower part of the belly >which does not fit the models of that found on early 16th century lutes >so esteemed by the 17th century French (see Lute News). > >Martyn >--- On Fri, 16/3/12, Mathias Roesel <[3]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: > > From: Mathias Roesel <[4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music > was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD > To: "baroque-lute mailing-list" <[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 12:10 > >> Hi Bill, This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the change >of >>heading). I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string >length >>of 76 or 77cm. It may at some stage have been converted (from a >>gallichon perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present >>manifestation as an 11 course instrument . Again see earlier >editions >>of Lute News for more information/views. The preferred >instruments at >>the time (ie converted early 16th cenury Italian lutes) generally >had >>a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute News 94, page 28 which >outlines >>the principle sources of evidence for the size of lutes preferred >in >>mid/late 17th century France). >I was as foolhardy as to choose the Wolf lute in Fuessen (63 cm) for >not only >Mace, but also Panmure (4, 5, 8), Pierre Gaultier, Dufaut, Bouvier, >Mesangeau et al. The music gets a light and bright touch, and I do like >it >very much. Mace has kinda fixed pitches and possibly mirrors habits of >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Martyn, Wolfgang Wolff the younger is indeed attested to have died in the late 16th century (1591, to be precise), but that implies that he probably did not rebuild this lute himself, as double headed lutes became fashionable only later. One may wonder whether or not the soundboard with its unique barring (three fan bars on the treble side, slanted J-bar joined by one fan bar on the bass side) was replaced. It also implies that small lutes of this size were lutes of choice when it came to rebuilding. Not the only possible choice, though, admittedly. According to Mary Burwell's teacher, the French first accepted the double headed lute, but later rejected it. I wonder how many years passed between first and later. Pierre Gaultier (1638) clearly requires a lute whose 9th course can be stopped on the fret board (although it sounds well to my ears on the 12c lute as well), but I haven't found other French music of the time, where that is so. It can be played comfortably on a 12c lute, and so it was e.g. by Jean Campbell (Panmure 8). The vocal lines, or singing quality, is much more prominent when played on this small lute with its 1st course in g', e.g. in the written out doubles with their almost continuous lines, or as well any piece that uses the upper register. Mathias > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > Auftrag von Martyn Hodgson > Gesendet: Freitag, 16. März 2012 13:39 > An: baroque-lute mailing-list; Mathias Rösel > Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne > Anthony Bailes CD > > >Dear Mathias, > >Interesting. As said, I don't think any reasonably sized lute is >'wrong': it's more a matter of what might have been generally expected >at the particular time. > >My comments relate principally to French lute music of the mid/late >17th century (as on Anthony Bailes's CD) so other schools and periods >such as those you mention (Mace and early 17th century French >lutenists) may well have used the size of lute you prefer for this >repertoire; such as the double headed Wolf lute (late 16th century? >original) with stopped strings at 63cm. > >One other problem with using the 1722 Wenger instrument for earlier >French repertoire is that the barring in the lower part of the belly >which does not fit the models of that found on early 16th century lutes >so esteemed by the 17th century French (see Lute News). > > Martyn > --- On Fri, 16/3/12, Mathias Roesel wrote: > > From: Mathias Roesel > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music > was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD > To: "baroque-lute mailing-list" > Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 12:10 > >> Hi Bill, This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the change >of >>heading). I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string >length >>of 76 or 77cm. It may at some stage have been converted (from a >>gallichon perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present >>manifestation as an 11 course instrument . Again see earlier >editions >>of Lute News for more information/views. The preferred >instruments at >>the time (ie converted early 16th cenury Italian lutes) generally >had >>a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute News 94, page 28 which >outlines >>the principle sources of evidence for the size of lutes preferred >in >>mid/late 17th century France). >I was as foolhardy as to choose the Wolf lute in Fuessen (63 cm) for >not only >Mace, but also Panmure (4, 5, 8), Pierre Gaultier, Dufaut, Bouvier, >Mesangeau et al. The music gets a light and bright touch, and I do like >it >very much. Mace has kinda fixed pitches and possibly mirrors habits of >the >1640ies in French-influenced England. >Mathias >> But bear in mind (as Lute News notes) >>"Of course, this is not to say that it is 'wrong' to play the >music on >>such a large lute and, indeed, the French repertoire whilst being >>challenging for interpretation (precise phrasing, accent, >>articulation, mannerisms and the like), is much less demanding >for the >>left hand and a large instrument is clearly quite possible: it's >more >>a question of what the Old Ones themselves might have expected". >>Incidentally, I make no comment one way or the other on Anthony >>Bailes's performance. r
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Mathias,
Interesting. As said, I don't think any reasonably sized lute is
'wrong': it's more a matter of what might have been generally expected
at the particular time.
My comments relate principally to French lute music of the mid/late
17th century (as on Anthony Bailes's CD) so other schools and periods
such as those you mention (Mace and early 17th century French
lutenists) may well have used the size of lute you prefer for this
repertoire; such as the double headed Wolf lute (late 16th century?
original) with stopped strings at 63cm.
One other problem with using the 1722 Wenger instrument for earlier
French repertoire is that the barring in the lower part of the belly
which does not fit the models of that found on early 16th century lutes
so esteemed by the 17th century French (see Lute News).
Martyn
--- On Fri, 16/3/12, Mathias Roesel wrote:
From: Mathias Roesel
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music
was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
To: "baroque-lute mailing-list"
Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 12:10
> Hi Bill, This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the change
of
>heading). I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string
length
>of 76 or 77cm. It may at some stage have been converted (from a
>gallichon perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present
>manifestation as an 11 course instrument . Again see earlier
editions
>of Lute News for more information/views. The preferred
instruments at
>the time (ie converted early 16th cenury Italian lutes) generally
had
>a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute News 94, page 28 which
outlines
>the principle sources of evidence for the size of lutes preferred
in
>mid/late 17th century France).
I was as foolhardy as to choose the Wolf lute in Fuessen (63 cm) for
not only
Mace, but also Panmure (4, 5, 8), Pierre Gaultier, Dufaut, Bouvier,
Mesangeau et al. The music gets a light and bright touch, and I do like
it
very much. Mace has kinda fixed pitches and possibly mirrors habits of
the
1640ies in French-influenced England.
Mathias
> But bear in mind (as Lute News notes)
>"Of course, this is not to say that it is 'wrong' to play the
music on
>such a large lute and, indeed, the French repertoire whilst being
>challenging for interpretation (precise phrasing, accent,
>articulation, mannerisms and the like), is much less demanding
for the
>left hand and a large instrument is clearly quite possible: it's
more
>a question of what the Old Ones themselves might have expected".
>Incidentally, I make no comment one way or the other on Anthony
>Bailes's performance. regards Martyn PS the CD of music played
on
>this instrument which I reported as being out over a year ago in
fact
>refers to a previous CD played on the same instrument.
--- On
>Fri, 16/3/12, William Samson <[2][1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>From: William Samson <[3][2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>Subject:
>[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CDTo: "Martyn Hodgson"
><[4][3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
"[5][4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
><[6][5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>,"Edward Martin"
><[7][6]e...@gamutstrings.com>Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 8:33
Hi
>Martyn, Do you know what the string length of the Wenger is?
>Bill From: Martyn Hodgson
<[1][8][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
>To: [2][9][8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin
><[3][10][9]e...@gamutstrings.com> Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012,
8:08
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CDDear
Edward,
> Thank you for this notice: in fact this CD has been out in
Europe
> forover a year.Unfortunately, as Anthony Bailes
later
>agreed (see letters in Lute Newsfrom No 94, August
2010
>on), the large Wenger lute used on therecording (if indeed
it
>was built as a lute and not a gallichon - theinstruments
for
>which Wenger was best known) is not the most suitable(or
>appropriate) type of instrument for playing the mid/late 17th
>century French repertoire. As you'll know, conversions of early
16th
> century Italian instruments were then the most highly
regarded.
> Indeed, in Lute News 95 Anthony Bailes writes: '..a lute
the
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Good point Rob rgds Martyn --- On Fri, 16/3/12, Rob MacKillop wrote: From: Rob MacKillop Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: "William Samson" Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 12:01 Will I be shot down in flames by suggesting you don't use Spotify? The thing is a massive rip off. The musician gets almost nothing for being on it. Lady Gaga had over a million plays on it, and received just over 100 dollars. Imagine what Anthony Bailes would receive... Many musicians are boycotting the site, including Bob Dylan, who doesn't need the money, but wants to support other artists. We all want something for free, but sometimes the cost is too high. I'm not talking about the income musicians get from CDs, which is very small in our lute world, but the record companies will not bother making any more lute recordings is even we as lute players do not support them. Sorry, Bill. I know you bought the disc, so full marks there. But I want others to think about using Spotify, what it entails. Sadly, I'm also on Spotify - I had no control over it, and didn't even know I was there until someone asked for a free score of pieces he was listening to me play on Spotify...and got annoyed at me when I said no. Rob MacKillop On 16 March 2012 11:31, William Samson <[1][1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Hi Martyn, Go to [1][2]www.spotify.com where you can download the player onto your computer. There are then two options - you can go for the free version which has occasional ads between tracks, or the paid version that is ad-free. Being a Scotsman I put up with the ads! Best wishes, Bill From: Martyn Hodgson <[3][2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: William Samson <[4][3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 11:17 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Thanks Bill - how does one access spotify? rgds M--- On Fri, 16/3/12, William Samson <[5][4]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: William Samson <[6][5]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 10:38 I just found that this album can be listened to on Spotify if you have access to it. It's free to use in the UK, but I can't say how things are elsewhere. Bill From: Martyn Hodgson <[8][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: "[9][8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[10][9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Edward Martin <[11][10]e...@gamutstrings.com>; William Samson <[12][11]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 9:04 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Hi Bill, This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the change of heading). I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string length of 76 or 77cm. It may at some stage have been converted (from a gallichon perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present manifestation as an 11 course instrument . Again see earlier editions of Lute News for more information/views. The preferred instruments at the time (ie converted early 16th cenury Italian lutes) generally had a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute News 94, page 28 which outlines the principle sources of evidence for the size of lutes preferred in mid/late 17th century France). But bear in mind (as Lute News notes) "Of course, this is not to say that it is 'wrong' to play the music on such a large lute and, indeed, the French repertoire whilst being challenging for interpretation (precise phrasing, accent, articulation, mannerisms and the like), is much less demanding for the left hand and a large instrument is clearly quite possible: it's more a question of what the Old Ones themselves might have expected". Incidentally, I make no comment one way or the oth
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
> Hi Bill, This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the change of >heading). I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string length >of 76 or 77cm. It may at some stage have been converted (from a >gallichon perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present >manifestation as an 11 course instrument . Again see earlier editions >of Lute News for more information/views. The preferred instruments at >the time (ie converted early 16th cenury Italian lutes) generally had >a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute News 94, page 28 which outlines >the principle sources of evidence for the size of lutes preferred in >mid/late 17th century France). I was as foolhardy as to choose the Wolf lute in Füssen (63 cm) for not only Mace, but also Panmure (4, 5, 8), Pierre Gaultier, Dufaut, Bouvier, Mesangeau et al. The music gets a light and bright touch, and I do like it very much. Mace has kinda fixed pitches and possibly mirrors habits of the 1640ies in French-influenced England. Mathias > But bear in mind (as Lute News notes) >"Of course, this is not to say that it is 'wrong' to play the music on >such a large lute and, indeed, the French repertoire whilst being >challenging for interpretation (precise phrasing, accent, >articulation, mannerisms and the like), is much less demanding for the >left hand and a large instrument is clearly quite possible: it's more >a question of what the Old Ones themselves might have expected". >Incidentally, I make no comment one way or the other on Anthony >Bailes's performance. regards Martyn PS the CD of music played on >this instrument which I reported as being out over a year ago in fact >refers to a previous CD played on the same instrument. --- On >Fri, 16/3/12, William Samson <[2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >From: William Samson <[3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>Subject: >[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CDTo: "Martyn Hodgson" ><[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,"[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ><[6]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>,"Edward Martin" ><[7]e...@gamutstrings.com>Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 8:33 Hi >Martyn, Do you know what the string length of the Wenger is? >Bill From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >To: [2][9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin ><[3][10]e...@gamutstrings.com> Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 8:08 > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CDDear Edward, > Thank you for this notice: in fact this CD has been out in Europe > forover a year.Unfortunately, as Anthony Bailes later >agreed (see letters in Lute Newsfrom No 94, August 2010 >on), the large Wenger lute used on therecording (if indeed it >was built as a lute and not a gallichon - theinstruments for >which Wenger was best known) is not the most suitable(or >appropriate) type of instrument for playing the mid/late 17th >century French repertoire. As you'll know, conversions of early 16th > century Italian instruments were then the most highly regarded. > Indeed, in Lute News 95 Anthony Bailes writes: '..a lute the >sizeof the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for >theperformance of 17th century French lute music,..' >regardsMartyn--- On Fri, 16/3/12, Edward Martin ><[1][4][11]e...@gamutstrings.com> wrote: From: Edward Martin ><[2][5][12]e...@gamutstrings.com> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ne >Anthony Bailes CD To: [3][6][13]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 2:50Dear Ones,For >those on the list who enjoy well played 11-course French baroque > lute, there is a new release by Abthony Bailes, on the Ramee >label. it is entitled, 'Une Douceur violente", and it contains works > of Mouton and Gallot. He recorded this program on his authentic >luteby Georgi Ferdinand Wenger, Augsburg, 1722. The catalog >number isRAM 1104, and it is available in the USA, in usual >outlets.This is an announcement, not a review. The instrument >is a largeone, and the pitch is consequently quite low, at a70, >in essencemaking it in a b-minor tuning. Beautiful sound and >playing, highlyrecommended.edEdward Martin >2817 East 2nd StreetDuluth, Minnesota 55812 >e-mail: [1][4][7][14]e...@gamutstrings.comvoice: (218) 728-1202 > >[2][5][8][15]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name >[3][6][9][16]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >[4][7][10][17]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martinTo get >on or off this list see list information at >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Will I be shot down in flames by suggesting you don't use Spotify? The thing is a massive rip off. The musician gets almost nothing for being on it. Lady Gaga had over a million plays on it, and received just over 100 dollars. Imagine what Anthony Bailes would receive... Many musicians are boycotting the site, including Bob Dylan, who doesn't need the money, but wants to support other artists. We all want something for free, but sometimes the cost is too high. I'm not talking about the income musicians get from CDs, which is very small in our lute world, but the record companies will not bother making any more lute recordings is even we as lute players do not support them. Sorry, Bill. I know you bought the disc, so full marks there. But I want others to think about using Spotify, what it entails. Sadly, I'm also on Spotify - I had no control over it, and didn't even know I was there until someone asked for a free score of pieces he was listening to me play on Spotify...and got annoyed at me when I said no. Rob MacKillop On 16 March 2012 11:31, William Samson <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Hi Martyn, Go to [1][2]www.spotify.com where you can download the player onto your computer. There are then two options - you can go for the free version which has occasional ads between tracks, or the paid version that is ad-free. Being a Scotsman I put up with the ads! Best wishes, Bill From: Martyn Hodgson <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: William Samson <[4]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 11:17 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Thanks Bill - how does one access spotify? rgds M--- On Fri, 16/3/12, William Samson <[5]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: William Samson <[6]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 10:38 I just found that this album can be listened to on Spotify if you have access to it. It's free to use in the UK, but I can't say how things are elsewhere. Bill From: Martyn Hodgson <[8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: "[9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[10]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Edward Martin <[11]e...@gamutstrings.com>; William Samson <[12]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 9:04 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Hi Bill, This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the change of heading). I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string length of 76 or 77cm. It may at some stage have been converted (from a gallichon perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present manifestation as an 11 course instrument . Again see earlier editions of Lute News for more information/views. The preferred instruments at the time (ie converted early 16th cenury Italian lutes) generally had a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute News 94, page 28 which outlines the principle sources of evidence for the size of lutes preferred in mid/late 17th century France). But bear in mind (as Lute News notes) "Of course, this is not to say that it is 'wrong' to play the music on such a large lute and, indeed, the French repertoire whilst being challenging for interpretation (precise phrasing, accent, articulation, mannerisms and the like), is much less demanding for the left hand and a large instrument is clearly quite possible: it's more a question of what the Old Ones themselves might have expected". Incidentally, I make no comment one way or the other on Anthony Bailes's performance. regards Martyn PS the CD of music played on this instrument which I reported as being out over a year ago in fact refers to a previous CD played on the same instrument. --- On Fri, 16/3/12, William Samson <[2][13]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: William Samson <[3][14]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CDTo: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4][15]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "[5][16]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[6][17]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>,"Edward Martin" <[7][18]e...@gamutstrings.com>Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 8:33 Hi Martyn, Do you know what the string length of the Wenger is? Bill From: Martyn Hodgson <[
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Hi Martyn, Go to [1]www.spotify.com where you can download the player onto your computer. There are then two options - you can go for the free version which has occasional ads between tracks, or the paid version that is ad-free. Being a Scotsman I put up with the ads! Best wishes, Bill From: Martyn Hodgson To: William Samson Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 11:17 Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Thanks Bill - how does one access spotify? rgds M--- On Fri, 16/3/12, William Samson wrote: From: William Samson Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: "Martyn Hodgson" Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 10:38 I just found that this album can be listened to on Spotify if you have access to it. It's free to use in the UK, but I can't say how things are elsewhere. Bill From: Martyn Hodgson To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ; Edward Martin ; William Samson Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 9:04 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Hi Bill, This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the change of heading). I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string length of 76 or 77cm. It may at some stage have been converted (from a gallichon perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present manifestation as an 11 course instrument . Again see earlier editions of Lute News for more information/views. The preferred instruments at the time (ie converted early 16th cenury Italian lutes) generally had a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute News 94, page 28 which outlines the principle sources of evidence for the size of lutes preferred in mid/late 17th century France). But bear in mind (as Lute News notes) "Of course, this is not to say that it is 'wrong' to play the music on such a large lute and, indeed, the French repertoire whilst being challenging for interpretation (precise phrasing, accent, articulation, mannerisms and the like), is much less demanding for the left hand and a large instrument is clearly quite possible: it's more a question of what the Old Ones themselves might have expected". Incidentally, I make no comment one way or the other on Anthony Bailes's performance. regards Martyn PS the CD of music played on this instrument which I reported as being out over a year ago in fact refers to a previous CD played on the same instrument. --- On Fri, 16/3/12, William Samson <[2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: William Samson <[3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CDTo: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,"[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[6]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>,"Edward Martin" <[7]e...@gamutstrings.com>Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 8:33 Hi Martyn, Do you know what the string length of the Wenger is? Bill From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: [2][9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin <[3][10]e...@gamutstrings.com> Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 8:08 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CDDear Edward, Thank you for this notice: in fact this CD has been out in Europe forover a year.Unfortunately, as Anthony Bailes later agreed (see letters in Lute Newsfrom No 94, August 2010 on), the large Wenger lute used on therecording (if indeed it was built as a lute and not a gallichon - theinstruments for which Wenger was best known) is not the most suitable(or appropriate) type of instrument for playing the mid/late 17th century French repertoire. As you'll know, conversions of early 16th century Italian instruments were then the most highly regarded. Indeed, in Lute News 95 Anthony Bailes writes: '..a lute the sizeof the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for theperformance of 17th century French lute music,..' regardsMartyn--- On Fri, 16/3/12, Edward Martin <[1][4][11]e...@gamutstrings.com> wrote: From: Edward Martin <[2][5][12]e...@gamutstrings.com> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: [3][6][13]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 2:50Dear Ones,For those on the list who enjoy well played 11-course French baroque lute, there is a new release by Abthony Bailes, on the Ramee label. it is entitled, 'Une Douceur violente", and it contains works of Mouton and Gallot. He recorded this program on his authentic luteby Georgi Ferdinand Wenger, Augsburg, 1722. The catalog number is
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
I just found that this album can be listened to on Spotify if you have access to it. It's free to use in the UK, but I can't say how things are elsewhere. Bill From: Martyn Hodgson To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ; Edward Martin ; William Samson Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 9:04 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] What lutes for 17th century French music was: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Hi Bill, This is indeed a fascinating subject (hence the change of heading). I am told variously that the 1722 Wenger has a string length of 76 or 77cm. It may at some stage have been converted (from a gallichon perhaps?) to a 13 course lute before the present manifestation as an 11 course instrument . Again see earlier editions of Lute News for more information/views. The preferred instruments at the time (ie converted early 16th cenury Italian lutes) generally had a string length of 68 +/-2cm. See Lute News 94, page 28 which outlines the principle sources of evidence for the size of lutes preferred in mid/late 17th century France). But bear in mind (as Lute News notes) "Of course, this is not to say that it is 'wrong' to play the music on such a large lute and, indeed, the French repertoire whilst being challenging for interpretation (precise phrasing, accent, articulation, mannerisms and the like), is much less demanding for the left hand and a large instrument is clearly quite possible: it's more a question of what the Old Ones themselves might have expected". Incidentally, I make no comment one way or the other on Anthony Bailes's performance. regards Martyn PS the CD of music played on this instrument which I reported as being out over a year ago in fact refers to a previous CD played on the same instrument. --- On Fri, 16/3/12, William Samson <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: William Samson <[2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Edward Martin" <[6]e...@gamutstrings.com> Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 8:33 Hi Martyn, Do you know what the string length of the Wenger is? Bill From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: [2][8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Edward Martin <[3][9]e...@gamutstrings.com> Sent: Friday, 16 March 2012, 8:08 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Edward, Thank you for this notice: in fact this CD has been out in Europe for over a year. Unfortunately, as Anthony Bailes later agreed (see letters in Lute News from No 94, August 2010 on), the large Wenger lute used on the recording (if indeed it was built as a lute and not a gallichon - the instruments for which Wenger was best known) is not the most suitable (or appropriate) type of instrument for playing the mid/late 17th century French repertoire. As you'll know, conversions of early 16th century Italian instruments were then the most highly regarded. Indeed, in Lute News 95 Anthony Bailes writes: '..a lute the size of the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the performance of 17th century French lute music,..' regards Martyn --- On Fri, 16/3/12, Edward Martin <[1][4][10]e...@gamutstrings.com> wrote: From: Edward Martin <[2][5][11]e...@gamutstrings.com> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: [3][6][12]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 2:50 Dear Ones, For those on the list who enjoy well played 11-course French baroque lute, there is a new release by Abthony Bailes, on the Ramee label. it is entitled, 'Une Douceur violente", and it contains works of Mouton and Gallot. He recorded this program on his authentic lute by Georgi Ferdinand Wenger, Augsburg, 1722. The catalog number is RAM 1104, and it is available in the USA, in usual outlets. This is an announcement, not a review. The instrument is a large one, and the pitch is consequently quite low, at a70, in essence making it in a b-minor tuning. Beautiful sound and playing, highly recommended. ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [1][4][7][13]e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 [2][5][8][14]http://www.facebook
