Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Christopher Finazzo]

I sent this message to Bare Bones Support earlier this morning, I am 
replicating it here for the purpose of general discussion.

Is there a reason why BBEdit does not support arbitrary keybindings for 
inserting snippets or autocompletion of text. Moving to BBEdit from Coda, 
this was a feature that I made extensive use of and cannot (at least in the 
application's default configuration) seem to replicate this behavior. 
BBEdit's User Manual specifies that either the Command key or the Control 
keys be when creating a shortcut and can only be used along with other 
modifier keys (Option, Shift, etc.) when assigning a custom keybinding. 
Is this behavior intentional, and if so, what is the reason for it? I would 
much rather be able to assign a short name and then be able to press Tab in 
order to complete a tag or other block of text. 
For example, one could assign "HTML" to the default clipping for an HTML5 
doctype and use it to quickly create a base layout for a page. As it 
stands, Keyboard Shortcuts (and by extension, Clippings) are of limited use 
because they require cumbersome modifier keys in order to activate. 
Does Bare Bones have any plans to adopt such a feature in the future? It 
would go a long way to encouraging people to make use of keyboard shortcuts 
to improve their daily workflow.


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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Kevin McKenzie]

While not exactly a response to your question, have you looked at something 
like TextExpander, BetterTouchTool, and so on?  TextExpander especially is 
incredibly powerful, letting you nest expansions, include Applescript or shell 
scripts as part of an expansion, and much else.

Sent from my iPad

On May 10, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Christopher Finazzo  
wrote:

> I sent this message to Bare Bones Support earlier this morning, I am 
> replicating it here for the purpose of general discussion.
> 
> Is there a reason why BBEdit does not support arbitrary keybindings for 
> inserting snippets or autocompletion of text. Moving to BBEdit from Coda, 
> this was a feature that I made extensive use of and cannot (at least in the 
> application's default configuration) seem to replicate this behavior. 
> BBEdit's User Manual specifies that either the Command key or the Control 
> keys be when creating a shortcut and can only be used along with other 
> modifier keys (Option, Shift, etc.) when assigning a custom keybinding. 
> Is this behavior intentional, and if so, what is the reason for it? I would 
> much rather be able to assign a short name and then be able to press Tab in 
> order to complete a tag or other block of text. 
> For example, one could assign "HTML" to the default clipping for an HTML5 
> doctype and use it to quickly create a base layout for a page. As it stands, 
> Keyboard Shortcuts (and by extension, Clippings) are of limited use because 
> they require cumbersome modifier keys in order to activate. 
> Does Bare Bones have any plans to adopt such a feature in the future? It 
> would go a long way to encouraging people to make use of keyboard shortcuts 
> to improve their daily workflow.
> 
> -- 
> This is the BBEdit Talk public discussion group. If you have a 
> feature request or would like to report a problem, please email
> "supp...@barebones.com" rather than posting to the group.
> Follow @bbedit on Twitter: 
>  
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>  

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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Fritz Anderson]

On 10 May 2013, at 9:52 AM, Christopher Finazzo  wrote:

> Is there a reason why BBEdit does not support arbitrary keybindings for 
> inserting snippets
...

I have key equivalents in my clipping sets for TeX and Markdown. I hit 
opt-cmd-B, and the selected text (or the insertion point) is wrapped in **. 

You do it through the Clippings palette (Window > Palettes > Clippings). Select 
the clipping that interests you, and click Set Shortcut (ugh) to open a field 
that will accept your key equivalent.

— F

-- 
Fritz Anderson
Xcode 4 Unleashed: 4.5 supplement for free!
http://www.informit.com/store/xcode-4-unleashed-9780672333279

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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Oliver Taylor]

On May 10, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Christopher Finazzo  
wrote:

> I would much rather be able to assign a short name and then be able to press 
> Tab in order to complete a tag or other block of text. 

This is provided by BBEdit's auto-complete function. Type the clipping-name 
then select from the menubar "Edit > Complete" (which you can assign a shortcut 
to). See page 93 of the user manual. This works for clippings (which can 
contain scripts), ctags, dictionary words, and words elsewhere in the document.

Is that what you're talking about?

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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Christopher Finazzo]

Yes. From my conversations with Patrick from Bare Bones, it seems that it 
is simply a philosophical argument about what keys are allowed to be used 
for the autocomplete function. "Tab" seems like the logical choice, but as 
it's already used by many other functions, which might be problematic for 
people. From what I understand, this isn't the first time that this request 
has come up.

On Saturday, May 11, 2013 12:17:27 AM UTC-4, Oliver Taylor wrote:
>
> On May 10, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Christopher Finazzo 
> > 
> wrote:
>
> I would much rather be able to assign a short name and then be able to 
> press Tab in order to complete a tag or other block of text. 
>
>
> This is provided by BBEdit's auto-complete function. Type the 
> clipping-name then select from the menubar "Edit > Complete" (which you can 
> assign a shortcut to). See page 93 of the user manual. This works for 
> clippings (which can contain scripts), ctags, dictionary words, and words 
> elsewhere in the document.
>
> Is that what you're talking about?
>

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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Christopher Finazzo]

In an ideal scenario, I wouldn't have to use modifier keys (Command, 
Option, etc.) at all in order to invoke the clipping. It just seems odd to 
me that autocomplete is "pigeon-holed" into this relatively limited way of 
doing things...

On Friday, May 10, 2013 11:24:29 AM UTC-4, Fritz Anderson wrote:
>
> On 10 May 2013, at 9:52 AM, Christopher Finazzo 
> > 
> wrote: 
>
> > Is there a reason why BBEdit does not support arbitrary keybindings for 
> inserting snippets 
> ... 
>
> I have key equivalents in my clipping sets for TeX and Markdown. I hit 
> opt-cmd-B, and the selected text (or the insertion point) is wrapped in **. 
>
> You do it through the Clippings palette (Window > Palettes > Clippings). 
> Select the clipping that interests you, and click Set Shortcut (ugh) to 
> open a field that will accept your key equivalent. 
>
> — F 
>
> -- 
> Fritz Anderson 
> Xcode 4 Unleashed: 4.5 supplement for free! 
> http://www.informit.com/store/xcode-4-unleashed-9780672333279 
>
>

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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Christopher Finazzo]

I've tried them, but the whole idea of these kinds of text expansion apps 
just doesn't appeal to me. If I'm thinking about it objectively, I can see 
there is a use case for some people, but that's not me.

If someone can find out how to sell this idea to regular people, maybe it 
would catch on outside of our circle of nerds, but I can just as easily see 
someone look at it and dismiss it without a second thought ("Text expansion 
is for wimps, just type" etc.)

On Friday, May 10, 2013 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Kevin McKenzie wrote:
>
> While not exactly a response to your question, have you looked at 
> something like TextExpander, BetterTouchTool, and so on?  TextExpander 
> especially is incredibly powerful, letting you nest expansions, include 
> Applescript or shell scripts as part of an expansion, and much else.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 10, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Christopher Finazzo 
> > 
> wrote:
>
> I sent this message to Bare Bones Support earlier this morning, I am 
> replicating it here for the purpose of general discussion.
>
> Is there a reason why BBEdit does not support arbitrary keybindings for 
> inserting snippets or autocompletion of text. Moving to BBEdit from Coda, 
> this was a feature that I made extensive use of and cannot (at least in the 
> application's default configuration) seem to replicate this behavior. 
> BBEdit's User Manual specifies that either the Command key or the Control 
> keys be when creating a shortcut and can only be used along with other 
> modifier keys (Option, Shift, etc.) when assigning a custom keybinding. 
> Is this behavior intentional, and if so, what is the reason for it? I 
> would much rather be able to assign a short name and then be able to press 
> Tab in order to complete a tag or other block of text. 
> For example, one could assign "HTML" to the default clipping for an HTML5 
> doctype and use it to quickly create a base layout for a page. As it 
> stands, Keyboard Shortcuts (and by extension, Clippings) are of limited use 
> because they require cumbersome modifier keys in order to activate. 
> Does Bare Bones have any plans to adopt such a feature in the future? It 
> would go a long way to encouraging people to make use of keyboard shortcuts 
> to improve their daily workflow.
>
>
>  -- 
> This is the BBEdit Talk public discussion group. If you have a 
> feature request or would like to report a problem, please email
> "sup...@barebones.com " rather than posting to the group.
> Follow @bbedit on Twitter: 
>  
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>  
>  
>
>

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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Kevin McKenzie]

Hi.  I guess I'm a bit confused, then.  I can understand why test expansion
and the like wouldn't appeal to some people, but for solving your
particular problem, TextExpander would work.  You could tell it, for
example, that if you typed HTML in bbedit, and then followed it with a
chosen demarcation keystroke (space, tab, etc), it would expand into the
base layout for the page.  It's not quite as clean as doing it in the
application, I'll admit, and it's not always foolproof, but it would
address your particular concern.  Similarly, with Keyboard Maestro, Dash,
and so on, you could do something similar, but somewhat differently.

Kevin McKenzie


On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Christopher Finazzo <
chris.fina...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've tried them, but the whole idea of these kinds of text expansion apps
> just doesn't appeal to me. If I'm thinking about it objectively, I can see
> there is a use case for some people, but that's not me.
>
> If someone can find out how to sell this idea to regular people, maybe it
> would catch on outside of our circle of nerds, but I can just as easily see
> someone look at it and dismiss it without a second thought ("Text expansion
> is for wimps, just type" etc.)
>
>
> On Friday, May 10, 2013 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Kevin McKenzie wrote:
>
>> While not exactly a response to your question, have you looked at
>> something like TextExpander, BetterTouchTool, and so on?  TextExpander
>> especially is incredibly powerful, letting you nest expansions, include
>> Applescript or shell scripts as part of an expansion, and much else.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On May 10, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Christopher Finazzo 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I sent this message to Bare Bones Support earlier this morning, I am
>> replicating it here for the purpose of general discussion.
>>
>> Is there a reason why BBEdit does not support arbitrary keybindings for
>> inserting snippets or autocompletion of text. Moving to BBEdit from Coda,
>> this was a feature that I made extensive use of and cannot (at least in the
>> application's default configuration) seem to replicate this behavior.
>> BBEdit's User Manual specifies that either the Command key or the Control
>> keys be when creating a shortcut and can only be used along with other
>> modifier keys (Option, Shift, etc.) when assigning a custom keybinding.
>> Is this behavior intentional, and if so, what is the reason for it? I
>> would much rather be able to assign a short name and then be able to press
>> Tab in order to complete a tag or other block of text.
>> For example, one could assign "HTML" to the default clipping for an HTML5
>> doctype and use it to quickly create a base layout for a page. As it
>> stands, Keyboard Shortcuts (and by extension, Clippings) are of limited use
>> because they require cumbersome modifier keys in order to activate.
>> Does Bare Bones have any plans to adopt such a feature in the future? It
>> would go a long way to encouraging people to make use of keyboard shortcuts
>> to improve their daily workflow.
>>
>>
>>  --
>> This is the BBEdit Talk public discussion group. If you have a
>> feature request or would like to report a problem, please email
>> "sup...@barebones.com" rather than posting to the group.
>>
>> Follow @bbedit on Twitter: 
>>
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>> email to bbedit+un...@**googlegroups.com.
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[John Delacour]

On 13/5/13 at 21:16, chris.fina...@gmail.com (Christopher 
Finazzo) wrote:


In an ideal scenario, I wouldn't have to use modifier keys 
(Command, Option, etc.) at all in order to invoke the clipping. 
It just seems odd to me that autocomplete is "pigeon-holed" 
into this relatively limited way of doing things...


I don't think typing control-tab is any more cumbersome than 
typing tab.  Think of the apps (XCode) where you can use just 
tab to autocomplete : what other options do you have for 
assigning key shortcuts in them?  BBEdit is exceptional in 
allowing you to do practically anything with key shortcuts and 
even to customize the standard shortcut keys.  I think you're 
making a mountain out of a molehill.


JD

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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Steve Samuels]

Take a look at bbautocomplete  .

On Monday, May 13, 2013 6:36:17 PM UTC-4, John Delacour wrote:
>
> On 13/5/13 at 21:16, chris@gmail.com  (Christopher 
> Finazzo) wrote: 
>
> >In an ideal scenario, I wouldn't have to use modifier keys 
> >(Command, Option, etc.) at all in order to invoke the clipping. 
> >It just seems odd to me that autocomplete is "pigeon-holed" 
> >into this relatively limited way of doing things... 
>
> I don't think typing control-tab is any more cumbersome than 
> typing tab.  Think of the apps (XCode) where you can use just 
> tab to autocomplete : what other options do you have for 
> assigning key shortcuts in them?  BBEdit is exceptional in 
> allowing you to do practically anything with key shortcuts and 
> even to customize the standard shortcut keys.  I think you're 
> making a mountain out of a molehill. 
>
> JD 
>
>

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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Watts Martin]

Christopher Finazzo wrote:


If someone can find out how to sell this idea to regular people, maybe
it would catch on outside of our circle of nerds, but I can just as
easily see someone look at it and dismiss it without a second thought
("Text expansion is for wimps, just type" etc.)


Text editors like BBEdit (and Sublime Text, Vim, Emacs, etc.) only 
appeal to a circle of nerds in the first place.


Quasi-seriously, I think BBEdit often seems to be of the opinion that 
shortcuts are for wimps in general. I'm pretty sure that things like 
auto-pairing and syntax-aware indenting have been requested for years 
and rejected, and discussions about it tend to show two rather 
black-and-white standpoints on the subject that boil down to "those are 
the best things ever" and "those are crutches that get in the way."


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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Rich Siegel]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013, Watts Martin  wrote:


Quasi-seriously, I think BBEdit often seems to be of the opinion that
shortcuts are for wimps in general.


BBEdit is a software product and is not sentient. :-) You may be 
thinking of Emacs, which has Lisp built into it and is therefore 
self aware.



I'm pretty sure that things like auto-pairing and syntax-aware
indenting have been requested for years and rejected, and discussions
about it tend to show two rather black-and-white standpoints on the
subject that boil down to "those are the best things ever" and "those
are crutches that get in the way."


I can't speak to what other people think, but I'm of the opinion 
that a great many language-sensitive features are extremely 
tricky to get right, and I'd rather do it right than do it 
half-assed. Even then, doing it right may involve making 
tradeoffs that I would prefer not to make, and therefore I will 
opt for not doing it at all rather than doing something half-assed.


R.
--
Rich Siegel Bare Bones Software, Inc.
  

Someday I'll look back on all this and laugh... until they 
sedate me.


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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Christopher Finazzo]

Watts, 

I do agree with you that some of the features we've been discussing have 
likely been asked for many times, but Bare Bones is reluctant to add them 
for the reasons you mention. I remember trying Textmate several years back 
(before having tried BBEdit, had only seen others use it) and finding that 
if you go too far in the direction of "context-aware" features, 2 things 
happen: 

1. Performance suffers.
2. There's too much "magic" going on, and people get frustrated (I want 
what I typed to appear on the screen and nothing else, there's no reason to 
try to read my mind and "help me" by adding things that I don't always 
want).

My motivation for bringing this up is mostly because it's a decision that 
was seemingly made not for technical/performance related reasons and unless 
I'm missing something, it doesn't seem like it would require that much 
effort to configure keyboard  shortcuts to behave in this way.

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:44:42 PM UTC-4, Watts Martin wrote:
>
> Christopher Finazzo wrote: 
>
> > If someone can find out how to sell this idea to regular people, maybe 
> > it would catch on outside of our circle of nerds, but I can just as 
> > easily see someone look at it and dismiss it without a second thought 
> > ("Text expansion is for wimps, just type" etc.) 
>
> Text editors like BBEdit (and Sublime Text, Vim, Emacs, etc.) only 
> appeal to a circle of nerds in the first place. 
>
> Quasi-seriously, I think BBEdit often seems to be of the opinion that 
> shortcuts are for wimps in general. I'm pretty sure that things like 
> auto-pairing and syntax-aware indenting have been requested for years 
> and rejected, and discussions about it tend to show two rather 
> black-and-white standpoints on the subject that boil down to "those are 
> the best things ever" and "those are crutches that get in the way." 
>

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Re: Arbitrary Keybindings in BBEdit

[Christopher Finazzo]

Thanks for weighing in on this Rich, always interesting to hear from the 
man himself.

It seems like I and the others on this thread do have Emacs or any number 
of similarly configurable text editors in mind when we're asking for a 
feature like this to be considered. It's very clear that BBEdit is 
"opinionated" in a way that Emacs in particular, isn't. The mantra there 
(among Emacs users) has long been "If you can do it in a text window, go 
right ahead, it's not up to us".

As I've said at times throughout this discussion, it may be (as you point 
out) that other things would have to change in order for the keybindings to 
be configurable in this way. Coming from primarily a web background, I 
don't have nearly enough experience with Objective-C to know if this is the 
case, but it  is the best guess I can make at this point.

>From my support emails with Patrick, it appeared initially that this was a 
philosophical decision, not driven by technology. However, I realize now 
that the reality is a bit more nuanced than that. It would be a welcome 
addition at some point, but I wouldn't want that to take away from any 
effort to keep BBEdit as fast and reliable as it is.

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 8:41:05 PM UTC-4, Rich Siegel wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013, Watts Martin > 
> wrote: 
>
> >Quasi-seriously, I think BBEdit often seems to be of the opinion that 
> >shortcuts are for wimps in general. 
>
> BBEdit is a software product and is not sentient. :-) You may be 
> thinking of Emacs, which has Lisp built into it and is therefore 
> self aware. 
>
> >I'm pretty sure that things like auto-pairing and syntax-aware 
> >indenting have been requested for years and rejected, and discussions 
> >about it tend to show two rather black-and-white standpoints on the 
> >subject that boil down to "those are the best things ever" and "those 
> >are crutches that get in the way." 
>
> I can't speak to what other people think, but I'm of the opinion 
> that a great many language-sensitive features are extremely 
> tricky to get right, and I'd rather do it right than do it 
> half-assed. Even then, doing it right may involve making 
> tradeoffs that I would prefer not to make, and therefore I will 
> opt for not doing it at all rather than doing something half-assed. 
>
> R. 
> -- 
> Rich Siegel Bare Bones Software, Inc. 
> >  <
> http://www.barebones.com/> 
>
> Someday I'll look back on all this and laugh... until they 
> sedate me. 
>
>

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