Re: Dornachian reactions?/certification
>Hi Glen, >I do agree with much that you say here, but you start with saying no >one is criticising anyone except the organisations but this is not >true. People are singling out individuals (just re-read recent posts >in this thread, including your own comments below). It just makes >the genuine points of criticism seem like sour grapes. > >But the certification issue is a big one. I have just been involved. . . Dear List, Of course, writers on this list sometimes disparrage others either on this list or off it. A couple cases in point are: >> People are using the real preps, (as though homeopathic and radionically prepared preps are not real) and > One or two people >dominate to the detriment of all others. (as though assuming the role of victim was the chief if not the only option in this situation) I myself am far from immune to falling into such traps, and in pointing out the above I too am tarred with the above as everyone will recognize the authors of these statements. I happen to have an extremely critical nature which I have to work hard on keeping in check and often fall short. This is at least humbling if not (usually) humiliating. But Hamish has the best point I've heard voiced on this list in a long time: Yes Biodynamics is growing in Australia. We have a number of Biodynamic associations around the country and the 2 biggest have very different cultures. to me that matters not. what matters is that people are "having a go". The second most important is that we share our experiences in the light of the laws of the free spiritual life. when our sharing descends below this level it does no-one any credit, but even then we need to have some modesty and tolerance. Like our Biodynamic practices we don't always get it right first go. With that said, please let me address certification. We are free to certify or not to. Here in the US some of the better known pioneers of the organic movement--Elliott Coleman and myself for two--have opted out of certification now that the government has taken it over by force. Why? We don't want to lend our good names to what we perceive as a prostitution of the founding ideals of the movement. I don't think it has so much to do with size. Some very large growers have a reputation for reliable quality--Lundberg rice, Coleman beef, etc. that far transcends the organic label. Arrowhead Mills had it at one time and hasn't entirely lost it after changing hands. What does organic certification mean to me?, and I routinely buy certified organic when presented with a choice that is otherwise not clear. If you can imagine this, recently the congressman of my home district, Nathan Deal, attached a rider to a key appropriation bill allowing chicken raisers to feed whatever feed was available to their birds and still label them organic under the government standards. This measure passed and took several months to repeal, though it created a rather vocal public outcry. Personally I love such shenanigans because they point up the folly of government certification as a means of assuring the consumer gets quality products. It always has been and will be necessary for buyers to be wary. Certification in my view is no substitute for grower integrity, and buyers might best become acquainted with their growers, whether large or small, and buy from the growers they know have integrity whenever possible. I relish each and every opportunity to tell inquirents that now we are not certified organic. We opted out of that process after many years of pioneering participation because we feel it has cashed in its heritage for a mess of porridge. Is life any worse for me today than when the public hardly knew organic existed? No. Selling quality is still the same. You only get across to those who really tune in to quality and have educated their taste for it and are willing to pay, whatever the cost of it. Sometimes it is cheap, sometimes dear, but they seek it out and you don't fool them with certified garbage. I treasure having such customers--the celebs who buy a year's supply of my garlic every year because it is the best they've ever had, to the 6 year old who eats four helpings of my mashed potatoes and throws up his thumb with, "The BEST I've evah had!" Certification, whether I chose to go for it or not, was never even close to being as satisfying as such knowledgable, discerning customers whose allegiance I knew I had won by being uncompromising about quality. There is no substitute for quality food. Steiner envisioned it would lift those who ate it above their "personal ambition, illusions and petty jealousies." It was the vision of such food that led me into farming, eventually to discover biodynamics as an answer to my sincerest prayers. Biodynamic farmers do not always achieve this ideal such as I envisioned, and biodynamic certification does not guarantee it. I have not always achieved it myself--far from it--and there are times when I fail
Re: keeping focussed
Yes thank you Hamish What you are doing / attempting in OZ sounds refreshing. > is that we share our experiences in the light of the laws of the free spiritual life I trust that your inclusive vision and spirit grows and infects our fine shores very soon. I look forward to it. You suggest a state beyond right and wrong I guess we in NZ must ask ourselves if our associations life is functioning beyond what & who is right and wrong. Are we even attempting to accept at least our own memberships varied insights and practices? Or are some very right and others very wrong? If yes, then what would it take for us to aspire to Hamish's challenge? MAybe this should become one of the central tenants of the associations constitution. Openness rather than protection GA ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Fw: Gouranga
From: "NitaiGouranga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 12:14 AM Subject: Gouranga > Call out Gouranga be happy!!! > Gouranga Gouranga Gouranga > That which brings the highest happiness!! > ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Glen Re: Dornachian reactions?
Graeme > Yes. There you go again Glen. But no matter. Seems to me if these > groups are so irrelevant, why do they survive - Are they /we being all we could be??? > > >This is why quality based certification regardless of production method is > >the way of the future. Twas thingking about this this morning and it may not be that hard. ie growers supplies a SFW certificate to indicate his soil health other parameters re brix test and the like a chroma tography a mineral and vitamin analysis or the like I am sure others have suggestions for this. Hardly a need for the farm to be inspected. Most enterprises are being inspected by a govt dept for something now so basic management environementally etc will be done there Quality is the key, however you get it. The market is wide open at present. GA ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
water consumption
Can anyone give me some hard data on reduction of water requirements on Biodynamic land? would be appreciated aye Hamish Mackay ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Solstice
Hi Eric A grey, wet, cold day for solstice had me wonder if any would turn up for the celebrations. A thick heavy fog rolled in around 4pm and no calls to verify if celebrations were still happening. As darkness began to fall many people, at least 50 arrived to light the fire and celebrate the solstice. It did end up to be one heck of a party for young and old, with laughter, poetry, warmth, good food and good company. L&L Liz on 21/6/03 1:52 PM, Eric Myren at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > May you all have a peaceful Solstice celebration. > or one heck of a party! > > Namaste > Eric > > ___ > BDNow mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can unsubscribe or change your options at: > http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow > ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Alex Podolinsky
Hi all Finally have heard word that Alex Podolinsky will be talking at the uni in Orange on the first weekend of August. Unsure of the details but will post these when confirmed. I'd be happy to put questions to him on behalf of others. Keeping in mind what Hamish has written; I can't help but think if not for this man would there be any Biodynamic groups in Australia today? Allan I'll do my best to tape the talk, but you may have to wait to hear it on our website? L&L Liz ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions? A glimmer of hope
Hi Tony, That is great news, I hope the meeting goes well. warm regards, Peter. > > Hi Glen Maybe there is a glimmer of change on the horizon. I was > contacted yesterday by a NZBD assoc member and was asked 'How can the NZBD > assoc help people like me who organise workshops and international speakers > to come to NZ." I am having a meeting on Sunday. > > Cheers Tony Robinson > NZ > > ___ > BDNow mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can unsubscribe or change your options at: > http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Lloyd Re: Dornachian reactions?
- Original Message - From: "Resonant Info" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:07 AM Subject: Lloyd Re: Dornachian reactions? Hi Graeme> - just a few comments - I also have stuff to do! > Yes, his approach is of course better than commercial growers'. What > does his stuff taste like? I wouldn't buy it. My partner and i went > down there to have a look and get a few vegies - but the smell of > urea, the blue nitrogen puffed leaves Given the above comment of yours I find it difficult to believe that he can produce without in crop chemicals? Either that or he has been extremely luck to date! > As to consumers. There are kids in their twenties whose only > experience of "fresh" food is the plastic wrapped chilled and watered > commercially grown stuff in the supermarket. They can't smell, taste > or even touch half of it before they buy it. They never in their > lives picked an apple or dug up a carrot. They don't know what real > food really tastes like, looks like or how it is grown. This is not > just a mistake, but the result of what may as well have been > conditoning/education program that has been going on for years. I really dont know what you do about this, we have been 'consumers' of alternative medicine for twenty years and despite the fact that we dont eat near as much good food as we should, our little family has enjoyed much better health than most, on top of which we have been taught (or learnt) how to look after our selves when things do go off course. We have close family members who we cannot get interested in alternatives, they remain locked in the conventional doctor knows best mindset, it is really frustrating when you see someone you care for being slowly poisoned by a well meaning doctor - long term medication for a simple problem that my naturapath friend could have fixed easily- and I could not do a damn thing about it. Nutritionally we have the grey haired doctor lady yapping on the tv about how there is no proven difference in favour of organic food - very careful to appear not to be biased - (just like the farmers associations when they promote GM) - I get mad every time I see her face - but she is an authority figure - a 'qualified Nutritionist' - and has science to back up those opinions. > Now, starting from that point, how can u expect such people to be > able to judge good food, ask the right questions of the grower, > figure out what is good practise in agriculture? Certification IS a > paternalistic, cotton wool approach. But what practical alternative > is there for the time being. We need something to get us out of this > dead end. I agree! and if certification does nothing else other than guarantee a more or less chemical free source of fruit and vegetables, then its a worthwhile excercise - trouble is its being hi-jacked by the big boys and in another five years or so organic will be shipped all over the world out of season, shrink wrapped, pre packed, ethylene ripened, irradiated, adulterated, --- and how will a consumer know if it started out organic or not? (good article on this in the latest acres USA magazine) > That is a problem > of education and my hope is that certifiers are contributing to the > re-education of the public. > If I am wrong about the education thing, then why are people still > buying supermarket food? For the same reasons they eat at mcdonalds and drive too fast - most people have yet to figure out that they can eat better, live longer and have more time to do the stuff they dont have time for. > > Okay, I do agree about organic certification not conveying much - > even BD certification here is no guarantee of quality. Go and try > some supermarket food - it tastes a LOT better than much of the > organically certified food I can buy at twice the price. Happily I have not found this to be the case, we dont have access to a lot of organic produce but what I have had in the last year or two has been better taste than the chemical version most times. Maybe I have become a more discerning buyer (probably so) > Finally, growers who are anti certification fall into 3 groups, in my > experience: > 1). Those that don't need it, they have their regular customers who > know them and trust them and they are doing fine > 2). Those that think it costs too much/can't afford it/resent the > certifiers taking money > 3) Those who are excluded by the certifiers. Either because their > management just isn't de rigeur. e.g. "Live without Roundup? Are u > joking?" or their practises or skills don't meet the demands of the > certifiers. (Who wants to join a club that wouldn't have you?) > > The first one is fine, but isn't really an argument against > certification. The second doesn't recognise the economic realities > of running a bureaucracy, and the third is where a lot of the > arguments on this list come from, as far as I can tell. Man you dont miss a t
Demeter International on BD Preps and the EU
Thanks to Ferdinand for going to the root of this matter (I am contracting for the missing references. Please be patient): Regulations regarding Bio-Dynamic Preparations in the EU To your question concerning the preparations: a new EC hygiene regulation (1774/2002) enter into force as from 30th April 2003 in the whole EC. With this regulation the using of some covers for bd preparations is forbidden. Horns can be used as before as well as stag bladders. The bovel of bovines is risico material and can be only used from BSE-free countries. That means, that the bovel must be imported as well as the mesenterium. But the peritoneum can be used because it belongs to foodstuff. The using of skulls of domestic animals is differenet. Skulls of bovines under the age of 1 year can be used as well as skulls of pigs. Skulls of older bovines, sheeps and goats may not used. Attached please find some information to this regulation and the activities of the biodynamic associations in the EC. With best regards, Ute Bucholski Demeter International ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: keeping focussed
Well said Hamish. I too think we should celebrate our variations within the theme, rather than seeking to prove my guru is a better guru than your guru. There can be no doubt that the best food available, is that grown Biodynamically. Should it not be our task to do that which we are able, to extend it's availability, and not waste energy on infighting. For any who may not know, Hamish has been a key figure in one of the two biggest of the several BD Camps in Oz. His dedication to the cause has been an inspiration to many over a long period. I get emails from people who at some time past visited Oz and saw Hamish in one of his several roles and they ask how he keeps up the good fight for all this time without burning out. I suggest it is the food he eats. Gil (N.B. We are yet to meet, but like many, I am familiar with his work.) Hamish Mackay wrote: Graeme Gerard wrote: "If your interest is in biodynamics, you may be wondering if you are subscribed to the right group! Despite the numerous claims to the contrary that you may read on the BDNow group, biodynamics is thriving, here in Australia at least. People are using the real preps, as described and recommended by Rudolf Steiner, as practised for decades all over the world. Although some think this is some kind of old school, bogged down and in decay, it is still a living culture. If you are interested in agriculture, biodynamics, growing food for people to help in the recovery of the Earth, seek it out. If you are interested in subtle energies, radionics, homoeopathic dilutions and such, there is a lot of very interesting information to be found on this list. It would be great if we could get above the contemptible slagging that goes on about "the other" and keep the focus on the many practical and helpful suggestions people have. regards all," Yes let's keep focussed on the challenges we all face in different landscapes and different cultures. bdnow is a wonderful tool for sharing with and supporting each other in our Biodynamic work and striving. Yes Biodynamics is growing in Australia. We have a number of Biodynamic associations around the country and the 2 biggest have very different cultures. to me that matters not. what matters is that people are "having a go". The second most important is that we share our experiences in the light of the laws of the free spiritual life. when our sharing descend below this level it does no-one any credit, but even then we need to have some modesty and tolerance. Like our Biodynamic practices we don't always get it right first go. I recently read "Nature and our Ideals" - a letter from Rudolf Steiner to Marie delle Grazie in response to her poem "Nature" in the preface was a quote from Rudolf Steiner's autobiography, The Course of My Life: “I felt that I was in a spiritual atmosphere which was of genuine benefit to me. For this purpose I did not need agreement in ideas; I needed earnest and spiritual striving humanity, susceptible to the spiritual.” aye Hamish Mackay ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
keeping focussed
Graeme Gerard wrote: "If your interest is in biodynamics, you may be wondering if you are subscribed to the right group!Despite the numerous claims to the contrary that you may read on the BDNow group, biodynamics is thriving, here in Australia at least. People are using the real preps, as described and recommended by Rudolf Steiner, as practised for decades all over the world. Although some think this is some kind of old school, bogged down and in decay, it is still a living culture.If you are interested in agriculture, biodynamics, growing food for people to help in the recovery of the Earth, seek it out. If you are interested in subtle energies, radionics, homoeopathic dilutions and such, there is a lot of very interesting information to be found on this list.It would be great if we could get above the contemptible slagging that goes on about "the other" and keep the focus on the many practical and helpful suggestions people have.regards all," Yes let's keep focussed on the challenges we all face in different landscapes and different cultures. bdnow is a wonderful tool for sharing with and supporting each other in our Biodynamic work and striving. Yes Biodynamics is growing in Australia. We have a number of Biodynamic associations around the country and the 2 biggest have very different cultures. to me that matters not. what matters is that people are "having a go". The second most important is that we share our experiences in the light of the laws of the free spiritual life. when our sharing descend below this level it does no-one any credit, but even then we need to have some modesty and tolerance. Like our Biodynamic practices we don't always get it right first go. I recently read "Nature and our Ideals" - a letter from Rudolf Steiner to Marie delle Grazie in response to her poem "Nature" in the preface was a quote from Rudolf Steiner's autobiography, The Course of My Life: I felt that I was in a spiritual atmosphere which was of genuine benefit to me. For this purpose I did not need agreement in ideas; I needed earnest and spiritual striving humanity, susceptible to the spiritual. aye Hamish Mackay ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions? A glimmer of hope
Tony A second thought Best ask wether this person has support from the BD Pope, as he has stated clearly at a recent AGM, that if he does not want it, it will not happen. This could be a well meaning person, who ultimately still has to run his impulse past daddy. :} GA BdMax distributors of ThermoMax -THE proven frost protection www.bdmax.co.nz - Original Message - From: "Rambler Flowers LTD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:44 AM Subject: Re: Dornachian reactions? A glimmer of hope > > Glen wrote > > > > Upon reflection I do not hear people knocking the use of traditional > preps. > > They are knocking the organisations who seem to be isolating themselves > from > > their members and the wider BD community, > > Hi Glen Maybe there is a glimmer of change on the horizon. I was > contacted yesterday by a NZBD assoc member and was asked 'How can the NZBD > assoc help people like me who organise workshops and international speakers > to come to NZ." I am having a meeting on Sunday. > > Cheers Tony Robinson > NZ > > ___ > BDNow mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can unsubscribe or change your options at: > http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow > ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Glen Re: Dornachian reactions?
Yes. There you go again Glen. But no matter. Seems to me if these groups are so irrelevant, why do they survive - I mean, there must be some people who think they are still doing something useful. (I think I remember the Marinus la Rooij name from that book BD Perspectives? I can't remember the details of his articles but I thought the book was great - focused on good agricultural and animal management practises, not just on the preps.) This is why quality based certification regardless of production method is the way of the future. Absolutely agree with you on this one. But who judges the quality? If you have to go around and try all your certified grower's food - it won't be long before there's a group of disaffected people saying Glen is a !#$*, his preps don't work and he is old school and out of touch. There needs to be objective measures if the system is to be robust and fair - I once thought it would be chromatography, but I was mistaken. You can't look at every apple grown! . People are singling out individuals (just re-read recent posts in this thread, including your own comments below). Graeme Podolinsky is the organisation, just as in NZ there are one or two people who have 'stolen' the association. It is often the way. One or two people dominate to the detriment of all others. The system they institute keeps them there, especially in a association where no one actually meets and AGMs attract less than 1% of the membership. If they can be identified then name them. In NZ we have one Marinus la Rooij being the major stick in the mud here. Funny thing is he has had several fellow council members ask him to resign, (as well as his wife), and he has not yet taken the hint. Seems its his divinely inspired purpose to block any development, and especially my work. Like dear old Hussein looks like he will have to be removed unceremoniously. The only question is how much further will the association die before he or the other members get it. At present it is little more than a cultist club that lives on all sorts of faith and internal legislation of course. Other groups are already forming around them, sidestepping them and of course making them irrelevant. Hughs coming tour for example, the biggest thing to happen in NZBD in 10 years is organised by these groups. > What do you do about such situations? I don't know. This is why quality based certification regardless of production method is the way of the future. Here it is the government organic mark that is screwing organics the most. At present they have great regs on paper, but no real inspection, and they are undercutting $ wise 'the peoples mark' BioGro (which is actually only a little bit better),, so it will be broke in a couple of years max, then we are left with only an immoral govt backed joke. Add GE to this and organics is dead. All we have left is real quality parameters, however you can get them. This will have to come from a peoples movement again no doubt. Glen A -- Graeme Gerrard 1480 Sapphire Coast Drive Wallagoot 2550 PO Box 39 Bega 2550 ph 6494 1191/0414 396 754 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Lloyd Re: Dornachian reactions?
Lloyd, (On rading this thru - it needs re-organising, but I have to rush out and do stuff. I hope you can get the main points.) Yes, his approach is of course better than commercial growers'. What does his stuff taste like? I wouldn't buy it. My partner and i went down there to have a look and get a few vegies - but the smell of urea, the blue nitrogen puffed leaves and the roundup comment put us both off. I don't know if he tells the truth - he *seemed* to be genuine and honest, even in his comments like "The only thing wrong with organics is that you just can't get enough N." As to consumers. There are kids in their twenties whose only experience of "fresh" food is the plastic wrapped chilled and watered commercially grown stuff in the supermarket. They can't smell, taste or even touch half of it before they buy it. They never in their lives picked an apple or dug up a carrot. They don't know what real food really tastes like, looks like or how it is grown. This is not just a mistake, but the result of what may as well have been conditoning/education program that has been going on for years. Now, starting from that point, how can u expect such people to be able to judge good food, ask the right questions of the grower, figure out what is good practise in agriculture? Certification IS a paternalistic, cotton wool approach. But what practical alternative is there for the time being. We need something to get us out of this dead end. We here (on this list) are all into food and growing and see it as important. Most people are raised to only consider price and presentation. Food is just titilation or "fuel". That is a problem of education and my hope is that certifiers are contributing to the re-education of the public. If I am wrong about the education thing, then why are people still buying supermarket food? Okay, I do agree about organic certification not conveying much - even BD certification here is no guarantee of quality. Go and try some supermarket food - it tastes a LOT better than much of the organically certified food I can buy at twice the price. It's true. 30 years ago we all said the opposite as we ate shrunken wormy (shop boughten) apples - but a lot has changed in recent years, I have found. I never said certification was perfect, just better than any alternatives I am aware of (except CSAs and similar small scale things). Finally, growers who are anti certification fall into 3 groups, in my experience: 1). Those that don't need it, they have their regular customers who know them and trust them and they are doing fine 2). Those that think it costs too much/can't afford it/resent the certifiers taking money 3) Those who are excluded by the certifiers. Either because their management just isn't de rigeur. e.g. "Live without Roundup? Are u joking?" or their practises or skills don't meet the demands of the certifiers. (Who wants to join a club that wouldn't have you?) The first one is fine, but isn't really an argument against certification. The second doesn't recognise the economic realities of running a bureaucracy, and the third is where a lot of the arguments on this list come from, as far as I can tell. > There's a guy down the road from me who sells "organic" vegetables to people. He makes his compost by mixing urea and sawdust together and leaving it for 3 weeks, then puts it on the plants. He told me he doesn't use any pesticides or chemicals - "only a bit of roundup at the start, of course". Hello Graeme If this guy is only using a bit of roundup at the start he's a mile in front of his commercial chemical counterparts, and if he really manages to produce his vegetable crops without any in crop pesticides, he is doing a lot of things right! What does his stuff taste like? And most importantly does he tell the truth when he sells his produce? If he does then I'd suggest he's not much of a problem. Organic certification tells the consumer that there is less toxic chemical present in the food but it says nothing (or very little)about the nutritional quality, and until consumers wake up and start to buy on taste rather than appearance nothing much will change. His clients are just as poorly informed - either they don't know or simply don't ask about his practices. What do you do about such situations? I don't know. Certification cant fix this - only quality testing by the end consumer - if your neighbor's produce looks good, tastes great, and is grown without chemicals in crop he is most of the way home and his consumers will figure it out, If it is rubbish and tastes like cardboard and he tells lies then they will probably figure that out too. Cheers Lloyd Charles -- Graeme Gerrard 1480 Sapphire Coast Drive Wallagoot 2550 PO Box 39 Bega 2550 ph 6494 1191/0414 396 754 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe
Re: Dornachian reactions? A glimmer of hope
Great news Tony Good luck GA BdMax distributors of ThermoMax -THE proven frost protection www.bdmax.co.nz - Original Message - From: "Rambler Flowers LTD" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:44 AM Subject: Re: Dornachian reactions? A glimmer of hope > > Glen wrote > > > > Upon reflection I do not hear people knocking the use of traditional > preps. > > They are knocking the organisations who seem to be isolating themselves > from > > their members and the wider BD community, > > Hi Glen Maybe there is a glimmer of change on the horizon. I was > contacted yesterday by a NZBD assoc member and was asked 'How can the NZBD > assoc help people like me who organise workshops and international speakers > to come to NZ." I am having a meeting on Sunday. > > Cheers Tony Robinson > NZ > > ___ > BDNow mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > You can unsubscribe or change your options at: > http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow > ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
. People are singling out individuals (just re-read recent posts > in this thread, including your own comments below). Graeme Podolinsky is the organisation, just as in NZ there are one or two people who have 'stolen' the association. It is often the way. One or two people dominate to the detriment of all others. The system they institute keeps them there, especially in a association where no one actually meets and AGMs attract less than 1% of the membership. If they can be identified then name them. In NZ we have one Marinus la Rooij being the major stick in the mud here. Funny thing is he has had several fellow council members ask him to resign, (as well as his wife), and he has not yet taken the hint. Seems its his divinely inspired purpose to block any development, and especially my work. Like dear old Hussein looks like he will have to be removed unceremoniously. The only question is how much further will the association die before he or the other members get it. At present it is little more than a cultist club that lives on all sorts of faith and internal legislation of course. Other groups are already forming around them, sidestepping them and of course making them irrelevant. Hughs coming tour for example, the biggest thing to happen in NZBD in 10 years is organised by these groups. > What do you do about such situations? I don't know. This is why quality based certification regardless of production method is the way of the future. Here it is the government organic mark that is screwing organics the most. At present they have great regs on paper, but no real inspection, and they are undercutting $ wise 'the peoples mark' BioGro (which is actually only a little bit better),, so it will be broke in a couple of years max, then we are left with only an immoral govt backed joke. Add GE to this and organics is dead. All we have left is real quality parameters, however you can get them. This will have to come from a peoples movement again no doubt. Glen A ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
Our newer (Biodynamic Agriculture) organisation has taken a more open and educational position and many farmers are learning to do things for themselves. There will be more mistakes made for sure, but learning always involves mistakes. Hi Lloyd I get there NewsLeaf magizine and the workshops and seminars they run are inspiring and exciting . One day i will be tempted to grab a cheap airfare across the ditch and attend one or two we get nothing like this in NZ. If the traditionalists manage to take over that organisation (and its likely, politics being what it is ) then there are enough of us free thinking loonies on the outside to carry things forward whatever happens. I believe that homeopathic remedies and what I term low level radionics - field broadcasters, potentiser instruments, (and probably some of the paper based systems), combined with dowsing and basic soil remineralising are the way of the future for agriculture. Energy farming! You have hit it on the nail and it is a lot more fun to do as well I sure have met some interesting people in the last few years! Cheers all Lloyd Charles Lloyd you are one of them Cheers Tony Robinson NZ ___BDNow mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]You can unsubscribe or change your options at:http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions? A glimmer of hope
Glen wrote > Upon reflection I do not hear people knocking the use of traditional preps. > They are knocking the organisations who seem to be isolating themselves from > their members and the wider BD community, Hi Glen Maybe there is a glimmer of change on the horizon. I was contacted yesterday by a NZBD assoc member and was asked 'How can the NZBD assoc help people like me who organise workshops and international speakers to come to NZ." I am having a meeting on Sunday. Cheers Tony Robinson NZ ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: C Timings
Title: Re: C Timings Eric, Yah, As is said "the meaning of life is what our thirdgrade teacher told us "pay Attention"" ie being present is everything. As the ancient Marcus Aurealius hung it out ' If one pays attention, everything happens as it should.' As you may rightly point out that Socrates was put to death much earlier for asking 'Why not pay attention.' On a different tack have you read Larry Leastheatmoon's PrairyErth? On the flint hills of Kansas neat book on really paying attention. back to your writing - note I said whirlwind as in some time the smoke gets in my eyes. In Love & BD501ish Light Markess From: Eric Myren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:58:01 -0600 To: Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: C Timings You are one who is well versed in the ancient ways. So what you saying is you know your own brain and how fast it can move. Unlike some people who do not know whether they are in Kansas any more, you know when to keep your feet on the ground. Peace Eric On Sunday, June 22, 2003, at 09:09 AM, Turtle Bend wrote: I'm finding this defining and pointing clearly were the whirl wind is in my personal, local & world touch. L*L Markess - from ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
> There's a guy down the road from me who sells "organic" vegetables to > people. He makes his compost by mixing urea and sawdust together and > leaving it for 3 weeks, then puts it on the plants. He told me he > doesn't use any pesticides or chemicals - "only a bit of roundup at > the start, of course". Hello Graeme If this guy is only using a bit of roundup at the start he's a mile in front of his commercial chemical counterparts, and if he really manages to produce his vegetable crops without any in crop pesticides, he is doing a lot of things right! What does his stuff taste like? And most importantly does he tell the truth when he sells his produce? If he does then I'd suggest he's not much of a problem. Organic certification tells the consumer that there is less toxic chemical present in the food but it says nothing (or very little)about the nutritional quality, and until consumers wake up and start to buy on taste rather than appearance nothing much will change. > His clients are just as poorly informed - either they don't know or > simply don't ask about his practices. > What do you do about such situations? I don't know. Certification cant fix this - only quality testing by the end consumer - if your neighbor's produce looks good, tastes great, and is grown without chemicals in crop he is most of the way home and his consumers will figure it out, If it is rubbish and tastes like cardboard and he tells lies then they will probably figure that out too. Cheers Lloyd Charles ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Rust
In a message dated 6/25/03 6:06:34 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Can you give more details, Steve? -Allan >> Add requisite 501 to stirring vessel, have some clay at hand, local is best as you stir the 501 crumble the clay into the water. As you stir clockwise sing in ascending tones into the stirring pot and as you stir counter clock wise sing in descending tones. Do not do this with garlic breath. After an hour fill your sprayer and apply to foliage in a drenching manner so spray drips from foliage. For best results do this before rust appears...sstorch ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: BD in Hawai'i
Hi Tony, I just sent some valerian flowers to Ellen Sugawara, HC 01, Box 900, Kaurakakai, HI 95748. She grows taro and ginger Bio-Dynamically. She's tried to get valerian flowers there, but the climate isn't right for flowering, it seems. She was outgoing and knowledgeable. Best, Merla Rambler Flowers LTD wrote: Hi folks I have had a group of 8 young people from the Wai'anae Organic AG Centre visit me as part of their 10 day visit to New Zealand . They left with big smiles on there faces, a heap of information and a promise from me to email them details about BDNOW and a list of some of the interesting info that comes from this list. Which I have done so.Who are the BD contacts in Hawaii's please. These are keen young people who want to repair the damage been done to their fragile environment. They want to learn more about BD in the tropics. Thanks for any helpCheers Tony RobinsonNewZealand ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: BD in Hawai'i
Contact is Patrick Moser, you may get details through jpi or bda...sstorch ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Rabbit Pepper
Anyone selling rabbit peppers here in the US? -Allan ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: equisetum
Until I have more time to spare, I'll follow Courtney;s advice to leave the leaves on (I have never had too much activity from a batch.) and Kolisko's recommendation to go anaerobic. What I'm trying to find out, I guess, is if it is possible for a 'sun tea' of equisetum (whatever the term: made as one would make stinging nettle tea) to be as effective as a boiled tea. I finally have a good sprayer and I have A LOT of area that needs equisetum regularly. -Allan In a message dated 6/20/03 3:53:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Also, has anyone on the list made an anaerobic tea from equisetum? I think it w.b.nice to have 50gals of fermented equisetum sitting around, but would this be of prep quality? >> equisetum: make the tea and remove the leaves, that helps depress the intense anaerobic situation. I drop an airstone in and bubble it up with a small aquarium air pump. sstorch ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Rust
try clay and 501 on the rust, I have had success with that...sstorch Can you give more details, Steve? -Allan ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Thun on Herb Teas for the Garden
Do you have a wild patch of equisetum or did you establish a bed for the purpose of harvesting? A natural patch I recently discovered As an aside, what is the benefit / effect of tansy tea? I'd expect to use it as an insect repellent, but I do not know what the experience of others has been The teas are not fully in the Thun book. -Allan ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow
Re: Dornachian reactions?
Hi Glen, I do agree with much that you say here, but you start with saying no one is criticising anyone except the organisations but this is not true. People are singling out individuals (just re-read recent posts in this thread, including your own comments below). It just makes the genuine points of criticism seem like sour grapes. But the certification issue is a big one. I have just been involved in 2 inspections for certification thru different certifiers here and so have some knowledge of the process. It is tough; different certifiers may have different emphases, but in Australia they all must adhere to the National Organic Standards set by AQIS (Australian Quarantine Inspection Service). Some of the regs are just dumb bureaucracy and I know people who have opted out of certification after many years. However, in all cases I'd say their certification DID get them their regular clients and their good name and helped them get established. There's a guy down the road from me who sells "organic" vegetables to people. He makes his compost by mixing urea and sawdust together and leaving it for 3 weeks, then puts it on the plants. He told me he doesn't use any pesticides or chemicals - "only a bit of roundup at the start, of course". This guy isn't trying to deceive anyone - he *believes* he is growing organic food! What distinguishes his practise from those that are certified is that a certified grower has to be aware of a lot of things and take appropriate action, while my neighbour is free to do whatever he does, in ignorance and without anyone pulling him up. His clients are just as poorly informed - either they don't know or simply don't ask about his practices. What do you do about such situations? I don't know. regards, Graeme Upon reflection I do not hear people knocking the use of traditional preps. They are knocking the organisations who seem to be isolating themselves from their members and the wider BD community, yet maintain relevance because of their trademark and its apparant value. The fact is trademarks are near on irrelevant anyway. The real practise they are supporting is garbage ( check out NZ BD apple production - 28 Lime Sulphurs a season) and so its a matter of time till they are dead. Discussion hear in NZ is post organic registration quality based trademarks. The search is on for relevant quality parameters, regardless of the production method. eg SFW tests for soil, brix and chromas etc The present organisations are basically corrupt. Here in NZ, one or two old council members protested a fellow members right to be elected onto council because of 'conflict of interest', as he worked part time with me. Somehow it seems I am working against the economic good of Biodynamics.? In the US we have the 'biodynamic' ownership debacle. In Australia we have Podolinsky setting up his kingdom, in Europe we have them suggesting illegal actions Who do these people think they are, and sadly they seem to believe they are beyond reproach or criticism. While they controlled the BD media they were, now they dont and so they are not. Seems the best they can do is stay away from the forum and keep their heads in the sand. Their choice. Good luck to them and good luck to the free thinkers who look at all the options, apply them to their properties and prosper. The reality is this list offers biodynamics without limitations. Pick up what you want and go for it. Aquarian anarchy. Yahoo. GA BdMax distributors of ThermoMax -THE proven frost protection www.bdmax.co.nz - Original Message - From: "Resonant Info" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Biodynamic Food and Farming Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 11:16 PM Subject: Re: Dornachian reactions? If your interest is in biodynamics, you may be wondering if you are subscribed to the right group! Despite the numerous claims to the contrary that you may read on the > BDNow group, biodynamics is thriving, here in Australia at least. People are using the real preps, as described and recommended by Rudolf Steiner, as practised for decades all over the world. Although some think this is some kind of old school, bogged down and in decay, it is still a living culture. If you are interested in agriculture, biodynamics, growing food for people to help in the recovery of the Earth, seek it out. If you are interested in subtle energies, radionics, homoeopathic dilutions and such, there is a lot of very interesting information to be found on this list. It would be great if we could get above the contemptible slagging that goes on about "the other" and keep the focus on the many practical and helpful suggestions people have. regards all, Graeme Gerrard -- ___ BDNow mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can unsubscribe or change your options at: http://lists.envirolink.org/mailman/listinfo/bdnow ___ BDN
