one solution - Bad Experience in Class
I have found that using a fork or spoon to give treats at home and saying easy or gentle at the same time works wonders - they hate biting down on the metal utensil and it saves your hands. Usually after 2-3 times, they are more gentle in taking the food and the "easy" then transfers over to other settings and hand feeding. My 2 pups, now 12 weeks, are extremely gentle in taking their treats from me. The only problem I have found is that this does not always transfer to other people, at least with pups as young as 12 weeks. They still land shark other people for treats so I give them a spoon and they feed also saying "easy" or "gentle". It was nice as when I started obedience several years ago with one of my other dogs, he was a very gentle treat taker so we were able to move along quickly with the class. Good luck, Molly Quellen Bernese Charlottesville, VA will it ever stop raining?
Bad Experience in Class - Update
Thanks everyone for all of your advice...lots of good advice and training experiences have been shared. In hindsight, I wish I had been quicker to react and challenged the instructor's actions when they happened but I didn't. I did return to the facility this evening and explained to the instructor why Nicco and I would not be returning. I let her know, nicely, that I am going to continue to work with Nicco but that it would not be in that class or that facility. I did explain what made me uncomfortable in the class and what I did not agree with. I do know better. Last year when Nicco was 5 months old we attended a class with a really positive, upbeat instructor...had also trained with her years ago with our first berner, Travis. Hers has always been a fun class that I and my dogs look forward to going to. Thought I would try this other facility a little closer to home...lesson learned. Know I know firsthand the different types of training methods out there, the good and the bad! Best advice from the list...don't let someone you do not know handle your dog! Nicco is a confident, outgoing pup and that instuctor made him flee from her by bopping him in the nose with her fist. I know all I have to do to get him to take a treat gently is to withhold the food, ask for gentle, and he gives me gentle. Thanks again for all of the experiences shared...this kind of thing happens alot. Cindy Reid and Nicco Corning, NY
Re: Bad Experience in Class
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RE: Bad Experience in Class
Cindy, I am reiterating what you have already seen in response to the class: turn and run the other way. It's good that your dog had the flight response to a bad (painful) experience, rather than the fight response. What a dog! I can't say I would have been so composed, but then I am not a dog. It is just as likely that her method will teach dogs to bite! Depends on the dog's threshold among other things. There are very effective, non abusive methods to teach your dog to not be a shark about treats.Some dogs grab at treats more than others and take a little more time to learn, but it is about learning. They don't just automatically know that humans are such wimps about teeth on flesh. :) If you can't find a trainer who teaches without brutality, then you _can_ learn how to train through books and videos. Classes help for other reasons but if an instructor, or anyone is doing anything to hurt a dog it isn't worth the damage. Listen to your dog: he doesn't want to be near that instructor! Neither would I and I hope you won't either. Best of luck and give a hug to Nicco, Jill Evans with Indie NAJ, OA, HIC, CGC & Delta Society Pet Partner and Gabby NA, NAJ, HIC, CGC, TDI
RE: Bad Experience in Class
Hi Cindy, I wouldn't even go one more week. This instructor is not using motivational methods at all and punching a dog in the nose is not acceptable. You can teach good manners for treats by having Nicco sit in front of you with the treat in a closed fist, do not offer the fist nor move it. You just hold your fist in front of him and brace yourself for some nibbling and chewing and poking at your fist. Do not retract your fist nor speak to him, the very second he sits back and doesn't touch your fist you open your hand flat and tell him "take it". Repeat a few times and extend his wait time and at some point he will glance at you and you reward by telling him to "take it". You should also be teaching him "leave it" and this is done by having a treat under your foot and pivoting your foot off the treat and telling him "leave it" the treat is only exposed for a second and quickly covered with your foot if he moves to take it. The second he looks at your foot and then looks towards you tell him to "take it" while pointing at the treat. These two methods will soon teach him that you are the dispensing machine and there is an order in which he gains the food or attention. Sitting nicely in front and waiting:-) If he is still grabbing like a shark take a small soft treat and hold between your thumb and forefinger and when he goes to snatch get in there with the treat and press onto the roof of his mouth, he will likely back off as if he has something stuck and think about his approach. It is an old method of flicking the nose when baiting to prevent the dog eating the handler's fingers but it is a long way from punching on the nose. I think your trainer would probably potty train a kid by sticking their head down the toilet!! Definately find yourself a more experienced and up to date trainer and you may find someone on the Association of Pet Dog Trainers that has a website site. Rose T.
Re: Bad Experience in Class
Rats, guys. I hit the send button before I signed. Sorry! Andie Reid Wilmington, NC
Re: Bad Experience in Class
Cindy, I've had a similar experience with a trainer who has great methods - up to a point. Once the dogs are trained, her expectations get higher and she tends to get rougher with them when they don't perform. We stopped using her for training when it got to that point. I've seen her get a little rough with labs and boxers and other breeds with good results - but that just doesn't go over well with Berners. Somehow I have a difficult time convincing people who have experience with other breeds that Berners really are VERY sensitive and just do not respond well to certain types of training. I guess they figure size demands more muscle, when for these guys, most of the time a polite request is good enough. As far as snarfing treats goes, I had the same issue with my boys and all it took was withholding the treat and not giving it up until they took it "gently". I still have to remind them occasionally, and you have to have pretty quick reflexes to avoid losing a finger, but usually when I see them getting kind of "grabby" I yank the treat back and say "GENTLY" and then hold it out again and they take it very nicely.
Re: Bad Experience in Class
Don't give your dog a common name! Mercedes also goes by Sadie, one of the most common names in all of dogdom. We once attended a class with another Sadie in it whose owner was a growly, grumbly person...always yelling at his dog. My girl thought it was about her and didn't like it there. I called her Mercedes, but she knows both so no way to undo the harm. She likes obedience classes, even that one, but I had to stop for a while until that man moved on. Susan Kowitz, Mercedes, and Bentley Sequim, WA
Re: Bad Experience in Class
- Original Message - From: "Cindy Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am going one more week but if I come > away with mixed feelings again then I'll quit this instructor and go > elsewhere. > Cindy, I have been working with a fella who was made to scream by an instructor...not in my control my hubby's who thought she knew what she was doing. This dog loved everyone one day and the next day after she made him scream he loved/trusted no stranger. Now grant you I believe he was 'soft' or the experience would not have soared him so easily. There are more instructors and this is your furkid, your job to 'let happen to him' what you will.me I wouldn't give her the chance to ruin your precious baby, but then that is me. Yanking and hard nosing are not my preferred methods. I wouldn't go back, I would find a positive class instructor. Just me. My hubby learned through this to never trust anyone with the leashI had told him, now he knows why. An instructor can instruct me, but they don't touch my dog PERIOD. Rusty C & Good Company
Re: Bad Experience in Class
I would not go back to that class -- period and end of discussion. Punching and jerking???!!! If someone did that to one of my dogs, I might be the one doing the punching! Training can and does occur without cruelty. I am glad you were uncomfortable with someone being mean to your dog -- trust your instincts and find a trainer who knows how to train with kindness and intelligence. Good luck :) Mary-Ann Bowman Emma, CDX, DD, retired Abra, VCD1 (NA, NAJ, CD, TD), CDX, OA, DD, CGC Maize, VCD1, OA, OAJ, DD, CGC Halo, TD at exactly six months :)
Re: Bad Experience in Class
In a message dated 05/27/2003 9:33:09 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << I am going one more week but if I come away with mixed feelings again then I'll quit this instructor and go elsewhere. >> My own feeling is - go with your "gut" feeling. I have made it a policy of my own that no one works with my dog but me. I will ask for an instructor's advise and suggestion and if it "feels" right to me, I will do it. Berners are sensitive dogs and usually should not be subjected to rough treatment. Most of them do not forgive easily and tend to have memories like the proverbial elephant. It is often best to observe an instructor doing a class before signing up to be sure their methods and your comfort level are on the same wave length. Your boy could easily have been taught not to "snarf" his treats without the "punching". Anne Copeland, Flash,TDI/CGC (Berner, 8 3/4 yrs.) & Gypsy TDI/CGC(Rescue Cavalier,2 yrs.) BMDCA Corresponding Secretary NE ILL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ty's memorial page: http://www.geocities.com/workingyorkie/ty.html Gypsy's page:http://hometown.aol.com/annes4/Gypsy.html
Bad Experience in Class
I just went through a not so nice experience in an obedience class...The instructor was trying to get ten month old Nicco to quit being such a shark for his food rewards by teaching him "easy". She would keep the bait in a closed fist and rap him on the nose when he was not being gentle enough...this was not a gentle tap and once was a pretty good punch. Nicco's reaction was to try to flee from her...I was not happy about his reaction. It was the first time I have ever seen him try to flee from someone. I also did not like the way the instuctor yanked the dogs around when they headed off in the opposite direction when walking on leash. I have been through other obed. classes and I know a good "pop" is effective...I didn't like the rough yanking I saw in this class. Am I just showing my inexperience or does any of this sound kinda rough? I am going one more week but if I come away with mixed feelings again then I'll quit this instructor and go elsewhere. Thanks, Cindy Reid
