Re: Female Incontenence
In a message dated 11/18/2002 9:46:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Just wondering, what in the spay process (surgery, removal of hormones, etc.) > seems to contribute to incontinence? As the owner of a newly spayed pup, I > wasn't happy to read about that possibility... ~~ Abstract from article in J Reprod Fertil Suppl 2001;57:233-6 Stocklin-Gautschi NM, Hassig M, Reichler IM, Hubler M, Arnold S. Department of Reproduction, Veterinary Faculty of Zurich, Winterthurerstrasse 260, CH-8057 Zurich, Switzerland. It is still controversial whether a bitch should be spayed before or after the first oestrus. It would be desirable to spay bitches at an age that would minimize the side effects of neutering. With regard to the risk of mammary tumours, early spaying must be recommended because the incidence of tumours is reduced considerably. The aim of the present study was to determine whether early spaying also reduces the risk of urinary incontinence. The owners of 206 bitches that had been spayed before their first oestrus and for at least 3 years were questioned on the occurrence of urinary incontinence as a result of spaying. At the time of the enquiry the average age of the bitches was 6.5 years, and the average age at the time of surgery was 7.1 months. Urinary incontinence after spaying occurred in 9.7% of bitches. This incidence is approximately half that of spaying after the first oestrus. Urinary incontinence affected 12.5% of bitches that were of a large body weight (> 20 kg body weight) and 5.1% of bitches that were of a small body weight (< 20 kg body weight). The surgical procedure (ovariectomy versus ovariohysterectomy) had no influence on the incidence, or on the period between spaying and the occurrence of urinary incontinence. Urinary incontinence occurred on average at 2 years and 10 months after surgery and occurred each day, while the animals were awake or during sleep. However, compared with late spaying the clinical signs of urinary incontinence were more distinct after early spaying. Note that in this study, bitches spayed BEFORE their first heat had half the incidence of urinary incontinence as girls spayed after their first heat. Clearly it's not a sure thing at all that prepubertal spaying contributes to incontinence, it may well prove to be just an old wives tale. -Sherri Venditti (and 7 & 10-1/2 y.o. girls spayed at 6 months, no dribbles :-)
Re: Female Incontenence
Just wondering, what in the spay process (surgery, removal of hormones, etc.) seems to contribute to incontinence? As the owner of a newly spayed pup, I wasn't happy to read about that possibility... Anne
Re: Female Incontenence--DES in humans
Mary, How can I possibly NOT make fun of the Mc Donalds hot coffee lawsuit!? It is a parody of itself! The lawyer may or may not be "a nice guy," but if you are stupid enough to put hot coffee in between your legs and drive off, too badif you wanted it cold you should have ordered a Diet Coke. Coffee is hot, news flash. It is really sad someone got burned, but we all do stupid things -- doesnt mean you get to blame someone else. Sad state our society is in, total lack of ability to take responsibility for your own actions...or when simple bad luck has to have someone at faultto the tune of a few million dollars. A huge portion of the the real reason health care costs are skyrocketing is medical malpractice abuse and the lack of desperately needed tort reform legislation. Anyway, dont get me going, obviously! Hee-hee! :-) But I guess the bottom line is dont trust the word of any group w/ such an obvious agendaget the real scoop on the DES data (or any medical info) from a source knowledgable, neutral and scientific. Vilma Briggs, MD Mt. Gilead, OH U-UD Mocha Java Slurp, UDX, HIC, TT Ch. Brighteye Expresso Bean, UD, NDD, TT U-CDX Our Little Buddy, UD, NA, TT and rescue Berners: Charm (Thirdtym's A Charm CGC) and Willow and now Ted
RE: Female Incontenence--DES in humans
I agree Vilma, which is why I specifically stated that all my sources (which I cited) agreed on the 30% increase in risk of mammary cancers for users of DES. I could only use a survey of sources I had access to at the time to educate myself; the more agreements I find between sources the more I believe that particular bit of information. Patricia -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] s I dunno, but I sure would be just a little hesitant to accept unquestioned any medical advice quoted from a law firm especially one that admits it makes big bucks suing over DES cases (or McDonalds hot coffee or whatever the case of the week is.) Hconflict of interest, anyone? :-)
Re: Female Incontenence
In a message dated 11/17/2002 5:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << We discussed age/spay related incontenence and she prescribed Proin. My understanding that this is the same product (formerly names DES I believe)that was given to pregnant women years ago and whose daughters developed cancer. >> Proin is Phenylpropanolamine or PPA. It is the drug that was in over the counter cold medicines and diet pills. I believe Dexitrim was one of the popular diet ones. PPA was pulled by the FDA a year or so ago for human consumption, as I recall because of some stroke consequences. It has not been a problem in animals. I remember we had difficulty obtaining it at the vets at the time because the market dried up quickly. My spayed Irish Setter took it for years for incontinence under the name Propagest, and so did one of my Berner males who is plagued with post nasal drip. It is an anti-histamine. My vet told me I could use the Dexitrim pills if I ran out of the prescription. Both of these dogs now do without any drugs. The Irish turned 13 last Thursday and I'd rather not give her any more meds than necessary. The boy isn't much different on the drug than off, so he's off. There is a hormone-type drug that can be given to spayed females for incontinence. Perhaps it is the one with DES. You can read more about Phenylpropanolamine at http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/ppa/default.htm. Carol Lingley Ijamsville, MD
Re: Female Incontenence--DES in humans
Hey Vilma, Don't make fun of the Mc Donalds coffee lawsuit attorney!: ) He lives in San Francisco. He contacted me for a puppy then later I called him about trouble I was having with my son's school and to my surprise instead of just giving me advice he took care of it for us free of charge! First time anyone had challenged the school district and won! He's actually a nice guy, and a great attorney to have available! Most "big name" lawyers would have been too busy, or not into such non-headline cases. Bernerly, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Re: Female Incontenence
I had a female Collie in my pre-Berner days who was spayed at 6 months and by the time she was a year old, was experiencing spay related incontinence. She was put on DES. I was able to wean the original dose, which I cannot remember, down to one dose per month. She lived to age 13 and had no cancer or other DES related problems. Janice Parky > My 7 year old girl was spayed just over a year ago. She occassionally will > piddle when I scold her or if I want to groom her or even when I give her a > belly rub. I checked with my vet and she does not have a UTI or any other > illness. We discussed age/spay related incontenence and she prescribed > Proin. My understanding that this is the same product (formerly names DES I > believe)that was given to pregnant women years ago and whose daughters > developed cancer. I hesitate to give my girl anything that has been proven > to cause cancer. > > I would love to hear from anyone with any information on this product. I > would rather deal with piddles than the fear of giving a cancer causing drug > to my sweet Batty.
Re: Female Incontenence--DES in humans
I dunno, but I sure would be just a little hesitant to accept unquestioned any medical advice quoted from a law firm especially one that admits it makes big bucks suing over DES cases (or McDonalds hot coffee or whatever the case of the week is.) Hconflict of interest, anyone? :-) Check out the websites for the AMA (American Medical Assoc) or ACOG (American College of OB/GYN) for straightforward medical/scientific info. Vilma Briggs, MD (OB/GYN) Mt. Gilead, OH U-UD Mocha Java Slurp, UDX, HIC, TT Ch. Brighteye Expresso Bean, UD, NDD, TT U-CDX Our Little Buddy, UD, NA, TT and rescue Berners: Charm (Thirdtym's A Charm CGC) and Willow and now Ted
RE: Female Incontenence
Shelley, This what I found on DES when I looked into it. The information is from DES Action Canada (a lobby group for those exposed); the law firm Feldman & Rifkin and the Canadian Government Health Site, all of which agreed on the % greater risk of cancer in those women who took DES prior to 1971: "DES daughters (the term used for women whose mothers took DES during pregnancy) are at greatest risk for health problems, but DES mothers (the women who took the drug) and DES sons may have complications as well." "Women who used DES may have a slightly increased risk of breast cancer. Current research indicates that the risk of breast cancer in DES-exposed mothers is approximately 30 percent higher than the risk for women who have not been exposed to this drug. This risk has been stable over time, and does not seem to increase as the mothers become older. Additional research is needed to clarify this issue and whether DES-exposed mothers are at higher risk for any other types of cancer." When I investigated synthetic estrogen for incontinence in a non-Berner girl some years ago, I looked at the incidence of mammary cancers in her line and siblings, her age and how long she was likely to be on the medication (that is, as she was elderly I knew she would not be taking the medication for years and years), her overall health status, etc. and made my decision based on the best risk/benefit analysis I could put together. Of course, I did not have the wonderful Berner-L from which to seek guidance. It will be interesting to hear from the doctors and vets on the list have to say. Patricia McIlveen (Yeoman, Reba & Gus) Calgary Alberta
Female Incontenence
My 7 year old girl was spayed just over a year ago. She occassionally will piddle when I scold her or if I want to groom her or even when I give her a belly rub. I checked with my vet and she does not have a UTI or any other illness. We discussed age/spay related incontenence and she prescribed Proin. My understanding that this is the same product (formerly names DES I believe)that was given to pregnant women years ago and whose daughters developed cancer. I hesitate to give my girl anything that has been proven to cause cancer. I would love to hear from anyone with any information on this product. I would rather deal with piddles than the fear of giving a cancer causing drug to my sweet Batty. Shelley Gonzales Bigfork, MT
