RE: Kenny's choice
Me too! Me too! Had to go shopping for a "puppy mobile" with A/C that would accommodate our baby berner and her friends...! Bought a Dodge Durango (has A/C in the back). Marie with Pistache (it's ok mom, you can drive my car to go to work today...) -Original Message- From: Mary Shaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 9:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 'Kenneth L Babcock' Subject: RE: Kenny's choice Kenny, you may find that you won't be spending $45,000 in vet bills, but as many of us have learned, you can't own just one berner at a time. I discovered when I adopted my second berner, Bailey, through our Rescue, that my "free" rescue dog cost me nearly $30,000 - not in vet bills, but in the cost of a new vehicle which could accommodate two dogs (and their duds)!! Betcha didn't think of THAT!! Mary and the girls, Laurel and Bailey, lounging comfortably in the back of "their" motor vehicle.
RE: Kenny's choice
Hi Anne, Our two major companies here in Canada tell you what exclusions you have and you have 30days to cancel for full refund. They both include HD and ED providing the dog has not been diagnosed before the policy is set up. Same thing with OCD in the shoulder. There is a company on the west coast that is Vet Pet Insurance and I wonder if it is the same as the US company. The Canadian one is underwritten by Allianz. Their rates vary according to the age of the dog and remain the same for the duration of the policy, there is no set up fee but as a result you don't know what your exclusions are until you put in a claim. They do not cover congenital conditions such as HD or ED and tend to squirm out of anything if they can out negotiate the policy holder. Rose T.
RE: Kenny's choice
Kenny, you may find that you won't be spending $45,000 in vet bills, but as many of us have learned, you can't own just one berner at a time. I discovered when I adopted my second berner, Bailey, through our Rescue, that my "free" rescue dog cost me nearly $30,000 - not in vet bills, but in the cost of a new vehicle which could accommodate two dogs (and their duds)!! Betcha didn't think of THAT!! Mary and the girls, Laurel and Bailey, lounging comfortably in the back of "their" motor vehicle.
Re: Kenny's choice
I agree that pet insurance is a good idea, but one should be aware that there are many exclusions. My Maddie ate about 3 feet of couch last fall when she was 4 or 5 months old...took her to the emerg. vet for treatment and the cost was covered. However, all her diagnostics/treatments for elbow dysplasia have been excluded (this is considered a genetic defect, apparently). When I first acquired Titan he had a bout of flea-bite dermatitis. Later that summer I bought the insurance; now I cannot get any coverage on skin conditions for him as they are considered a preexisting condition. I still think pet insurance is a good idea, however, and it is relatively affordable (about $17/month for each dog; this is VPI, Veterinary Pet Insurance). It's just wise to know up front about the things that may not be covered. Anne Cranford, NJ
RE: Kenny's choice
Hi Kenny, It is prudent in this day and age to invest in Veterinary Insurance, some folk feel it's a waste of money until the day they have a major crisis with their dog. I recommend to all my puppy owners to insure their dogs. Lisa goes to every length to treat her dog's ailments and spares no expense, not every Berner is going to be afflicted with major illnesses but it is wise to be prepared just in case. The major health concerns with Berners are hip and elbow dysplasia and OCD in the shoulder, dietary indiscretion ( they are famous for eating sport socks and pantyhose), entropia, bloat and torsion and there is the inevitable risk of cancer. Even if a dog reaches old age in great health the day will come when his health fails him and diagnostic tests to help you make appropriate decisions for his future can be very expensive. If you consider the actual cost of human health care the fees that vets charge are not unrealistic but nonetheless can be a challenge to the family budget. If your children are of an age where their financial demands are increasing then vet insurance helps you with your conscience in times of dog-related sickness. Here in Canada we have Pet Plan and Pet Care, I'm sure fellow listers can recommend US companies and you can explore their websites for a suitable plan. Rose T. -Original Message- From: Kenneth L Babcock [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 2, 2003 9:04 AM To: Lisa D Allen; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Kenny's choice Thanks Lisa, Although your information was very negative I apprieciate and need to know both good and bad of berner ownership. You say you paid 30X the purchase price of your berner for his illness? The breeder I met and very much liked gets $1500 per pup. If in fact that is the going rate do you mean to tell me that I should expect to pay $45000.00 for vet charges for my berner? Is there insurance available for them because $45k is way over my expected berner vet budget expectations?? Concerned. Kenny
Re: Kenny's choice
Kenny -- I don't believe you will find that 30X purchase price to be at all typical - however, it is possible - especially if your dog lives to be a veteran and develops any kind of serious health problem. We don't have that kind of money either! However, we spent over $1000 in a two week period on our first BMD, Toby, just before he died from MH. There were blood tests, ultrasounds, emergency boarding, medication, and then euthanasia. We have also spent quite a bit on our 2nd BMD since we got him in Nov 2001. He is a rehome that his breeder entrusted us with. We took him to the vet when we first got him - for routine checkup & vaccinations - and found out he has renal failure. It has cost over $1600 so far for his testing, special diet, etc. Fortunately, our breeder helped with the initial testing & neutering expenses. With 2 dogs and 3 cats in our home we spend an average of $1100 to $1200 a year on "normal" maintenance animal care - and the special cases are over and above that. We took in my sister's dog when she got sick (she had tumors which led to renal failure, and my sister couldn't take care of her). In a 2 week period we spent over $800 on tests and meds on her. It varies from dog to dog, and I don't think any one breed will end up costing more than any other breed (my opinion only). Taking responsibility for another life, human or animal, involves cost & commitment. Some people can take on that responsibility; others can't. And many more do, but shouldn't have ;-( I'm sure the breeder you have been talking with can help you in your decision making. Good breeders are careful about who they entrust with the life of one of their "kids". Let us know. Liz Steinweg & The Crew Blue Moon's Baloo Berry Torte "Baloo" Bobby Sox (husky-x), Figaro (20+ lb Forest Cat) Rio & Sahara (the "Rat Cats") and in loving memory of my 1st BMD - Toby (6/29/97 - 6/30/00 lost to MH) Colorado Springs CO http://www.csbservices.com/personal/personal.htm - Original Message - From: "Kenneth L Babcock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> do you mean to tell me that I should expect to pay $45000.00 for vet charges for my berner?
Kenny's choice
As you have noticed, I do not mince words where the welfare of the Bernese Mountain Dog is concerned because I do not feel I am serving the breed by being any less than completely honest, as my mind dictates. What I had hoped to state was that this breed has some very serious health problems and even the well-bred dogs are not immune from them. Should your Bernese fall ill with one or more of these problems, it is not unheard of to be required to spend several thousand dollars, often to save the dog's life or to establish a diagnosis or to evaluate his condition, often in the course of a several day time period. I would recommend that every Bernese owner have at least, actually more, three thousand dollars tucked safely away, should the dog's health deteriorate. And, sometimes, there is no "warning." My current Berner was fine one day and the next day found him lying on his side, clearly in pain; this was the beginning of our autoimmune "saga." As to his osteosarcoma, we were merely Xraying for the progression of his arthritis, to determine the best management regimen for him. The Xray, surprisingly, revealed a very suspicious area on his femur and a biopsy, where half a dozen specimens were taken, clearly indicated bone cancer. This kind of cancer spreads aggressively through the blood stream and a week later, the leg was amputated to remove the primary tumor site. Each chemotherapy session cost one thousand dollars. I was brought up to not discuss costs BUT I do not feel that being any less than "brutally" honest about what can occur serves anyone well, especially the dog. My previous Berner, also well-bred, lost a leg to synovial cell sarcoma. I consider my dogs family and would do anything necessary to ascertain a long and quality life for each. To me, toasters are replaceable, living beings are not. It has been discussed that there might well be no lines free from cancer in the breed and immune system and orthopedic problems are not uncommon. I have been owned by Berners for twenty years, each has lived a very long life, considering the breed, and while the Bernese is unequaled in devotion, sensitivity, and sheer physical beauty, the health of the breed is, in my opinion, poor at best. There are indeed pet insurance companies and I have signed up my one year old Swiss dog for such. Ascertain that the company you select will cover conditions known to be a problem in the breed. Lisa Allen _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
re: Kenny's choice(long response)
Kenny wroter: >If in fact that is the going rate do you mean to tell me that I should expect to pay >$45000.00 for vet charges for my berner?> This sum is not what I would consider at all typical for the health care of the average berner. Most of us do not have the financial means to be able to pay for that kind of care. Fortunately, in many instances, it is not necessary. I have an 11 y.o. berner here who has not needed much more than preventive care for the bulk of her life(vaccines, heartworm medicine, dietary supplements, etc). I also have a berner who I just spent $1300 on to have an MRI done, which confirmed a trigeminal nerve tumor. This will of course lead to more expenses, as I try to keep him as comfortable and happy as I can for whatever time he has left, trying to make that good quality time as long as possible. The expenses related to the health care of berners, as in any living creature, are quite variable. Getting your dog from a responsible breeder helps minimize the risks of potential health problems, but can't eliminate the risk. Some berners have orthopedic problems, some of which are treated through surgery, others through more conservative means. Various cancers are prevalent in all dogs, with particular varieties more common in berners(like malignant histiocytosis). Incidences of auto-immune disorders, allergy problems, vision problems like PRA, thyroid disorders, and cardiac disorders have all been reported on this list. Many berners lead uneventful and healthy lives. Further, decisions about what can and should be done related to health issues are just as varied and individual. Some folks feel that it is most important to keep their dogs alive as long as possible, and that no expense is too much to achieve this goal. Others feel that sometimes the cure or treatment causes as much suffering as the illness, and prefer to let their dogs go, rather than prolong the suffering. This is no different than what we as humans struggle with in health decisions related to critically or terminally ill spouses, parents and children. Ask 10 people what their philosophy is about end of life care and decision making, and you will probably get 10 different opinions. Finally, some folks would like to be able to do more, but the cruel reality for all of us is that health care is expensive, and that everyone has different and limited means to meet that expense. I don't personally have any experience with health insurance for pets, so I can't comment on whether it is helpful or not. There was a discussion about it on this list a while ago - a search through the archives would give you more information about the pros and cons. Keep asking questions - its the best way to make an informed decision that you will be comfortable with. Ann Skinner, Tatters and Kerzon
Re: Kenny's choice
In a message dated 03/02/2003 8:03:01 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << If in fact that is the going rate do you mean to tell me that I should expect to pay $45000.00 for vet charges for my berner? Is there insurance available for them because $45k is way over my expected berner vet budget expectations?? >> Kenny - While I do not mean to diminish the impact of Lisa's statement, I do not believe that the vast majority of Bernese owners spend anywhere near that amount on their dog's health care. Anyone can have the misfortune of severe and expensive illness in their pet and this is not limited to Bernese, nor are Berners particularly more susceptible to high cost problems than many other breeds, it seems that Berner owners/breeders are more open about the challenges they face. I have met thousands of Berners over the past 8 years and most of them are as healthy as dogs of other breeds I know. When it comes to the actual health costs, I can only relate what I have spent on my Flash. His average medical bills for any one year run about $400 - $500. This is strictly veterinary care and includes things such as heart worm tests and preventative medicine, annual booster vaccinations, biennial dentistry, annual blood panel and thyroid panel (he is hypothyroid) plus thyroid medication and miscellaneous visits to the vet for things such as a hematoma in the ear flap, a case of sarcoptic mange and currently a middle and outer ear infection that is resisting treatment. Now this may sound like a lot when written together this way , but this is over a period of almost 7 years! And none of these issues is particularly Berner related, they could just as easily been found in my old Rottie, my Cavalier or any mixed breed! There are pet insurance companies, but their coverage is limited in maximum payments and they will not cover a claim if they feel (and it is their total decision) the condition is any way related to a genetic or congenital problem! Owning a dog, like having a child, is a big committment of both time and money. But the rewards are "priceless." Anne Copeland, Flash,TDI/CGC (Berner, 8 1/2 yrs.) & Gypsy TDI/CGC(Rescue Cavalier,2 yrs.) BMDCSEW Tracking Test Chair/Sec. NE ILL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ty's memorial page: http://www.geocities.com/workingyorkie/ty.html Gypsy's page:http://hometown.aol.com/annes4/Gypsy.html
Re: Kenny's choice
Thanks Lisa, Although your information was very negative I apprieciate and need to know both good and bad of berner ownership. You say you paid 30X the purchase price of your berner for his illness? The breeder I met and very much liked gets $1500 per pup. If in fact that is the going rate do you mean to tell me that I should expect to pay $45000.00 for vet charges for my berner? Is there insurance available for them because $45k is way over my expected berner vet budget expectations?? Concerned. Kenny
Kenny's choice
Kenny and others, If price is a profound consideration in your decision to adopt a Berner, then perhaps more thought on the matter is in order. It is known, in this breed, that the purchase price can be a mere "drop in the bucket" compared to the price of tending to an unwell Berner. By all means, purchase your Berner from a conscientious breeder but be aware that this is not a guarantee of excellent health in a breed plagued by problems and the breeder should not be blamed, either, now that you have become aware of the risks. And, if a seller should tell you that his or her lines are from whatever country and have no known problems, run, do not walk, away from such a situation. My current Berner, a well-bred lad, has been "ill" for two years, first with immune-mediated polyarthritis (the breed does not have the world's strongest immune systems) and now with bone cancer. Thanks to my love for him and the very best medical care, his spirit still sings loudly and with joy. It has cost me thirty times the purchase price to tend to his medical needs; I offer this merely as a fact as the health of my family, which includes my dogs, is priceless. And, to "chime in" on a former thread, I do not expect the breeder to pay one cent toward his care as he is my "child" and no living being is free of "imperfections." Too, this "frees" me to select the medical care of my choice for my dogs, whom, as family, receive only the best; it is my duty and their very birthright. And, I would refer anyone to his breeder who is very caring and conscientious in regard to dogs bred. You need to be very aware, and I cannot state this often enough, that maintenance for this breed, specifically in terms of health, can rise into the thousands or tens of thousands of dollars faster than you can possibly imagine. Lisa Allen Owned by Bernese since 1983 _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
