[Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Morten Mikkelsen]

So as you guys most likely know white means down and black means up when
bump mapping in Blender
which is kinda counter intuitive.
However, we recently did a completely new implementation of bump mapping for
Blender
and I was wondering, since we kept in the original bump mapping methods
as available options, is there any good reason why we shouldn't let the new
bump mapping
method use the more intuitive interpretation which is white is up and black
is down?
We could just leave the legacy methods the way they are and only change it
for the most recent method
of bump mapping (was added early this year).

Anyway, was just a thought :)

 Cheers,

 Morten.
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[Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Jolly Charlie]

I certainly think that it would be preferable to have this changed,
especially when the displace modifier works the opposite way.

I noticed this when porting the old tile texture to 2.5
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Tom M]

Is there a 'standard' - ie does every other 3d animation package use
the inverse of what we currently use?

LetterRip

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Morten Mikkelsen  wrote:
> So as you guys most likely know white means down and black means up when
> bump mapping in Blender
> which is kinda counter intuitive.
> However, we recently did a completely new implementation of bump mapping for
> Blender
> and I was wondering, since we kept in the original bump mapping methods
> as available options, is there any good reason why we shouldn't let the new
> bump mapping
> method use the more intuitive interpretation which is white is up and black
> is down?
> We could just leave the legacy methods the way they are and only change it
> for the most recent method
> of bump mapping (was added early this year).
>
> Anyway, was just a thought :)
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Morten.
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[michael williamson]

In pretty much everything out there the convention is "white is True, 
black is False"...

in most DCC this equates to white being high (a bump) and black being 
low(a crevice)...see lightwave, 3ds max, maya and also note that this  
is consistent with the displacement map modifier in blender...




On 25/02/11 08:18, Tom M wrote:
> Is there a 'standard' - ie does every other 3d animation package use
> the inverse of what we currently use?
>
> LetterRip
>
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Morten Mikkelsen  
> wrote:
>> So as you guys most likely know white means down and black means up when
>> bump mapping in Blender
>> which is kinda counter intuitive.
>> However, we recently did a completely new implementation of bump mapping for
>> Blender
>> and I was wondering, since we kept in the original bump mapping methods
>> as available options, is there any good reason why we shouldn't let the new
>> bump mapping
>> method use the more intuitive interpretation which is white is up and black
>> is down?
>> We could just leave the legacy methods the way they are and only change it
>> for the most recent method
>> of bump mapping (was added early this year).
>>
>> Anyway, was just a thought :)
>>
>>  Cheers,
>>
>>  Morten.
>> ___
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Morten Mikkelsen]

It would be extremely easy to fix this for just the most recently added bump
mapping
method should we choose to do it that way.



In render_texture.c in the function ntap_bump_compute() At the top
change the line:
float Hscale = Tnor*mtex->norfac;

such that it's negated:
float Hscale = -Tnor*mtex->norfac;

And then similarly in gpu_material.c in the function do_material_tex()
change this line:
norfac = hScale * mtex->norfac;

such that it is also negated:
norfac = -hScale * mtex->norfac;

I apologize for not making this a real patch but I am sitting at my gf's
laptop.
Perhaps mario can cook one up? or I can do it later.
But anyway, if someone wants to try it out, That's all it takes.




On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 12:50 AM, michael williamson <
micha...@cowtoolsmedia.co.uk> wrote:

> In pretty much everything out there the convention is "white is True,
> black is False"...
>
> in most DCC this equates to white being high (a bump) and black being
> low(a crevice)...see lightwave, 3ds max, maya and also note that this
> is consistent with the displacement map modifier in blender...
>
>
>
>
> On 25/02/11 08:18, Tom M wrote:
> > Is there a 'standard' - ie does every other 3d animation package use
> > the inverse of what we currently use?
> >
> > LetterRip
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Morten Mikkelsen
>  wrote:
> >> So as you guys most likely know white means down and black means up when
> >> bump mapping in Blender
> >> which is kinda counter intuitive.
> >> However, we recently did a completely new implementation of bump mapping
> for
> >> Blender
> >> and I was wondering, since we kept in the original bump mapping methods
> >> as available options, is there any good reason why we shouldn't let the
> new
> >> bump mapping
> >> method use the more intuitive interpretation which is white is up and
> black
> >> is down?
> >> We could just leave the legacy methods the way they are and only change
> it
> >> for the most recent method
> >> of bump mapping (was added early this year).
> >>
> >> Anyway, was just a thought :)
> >>
> >>  Cheers,
> >>
> >>  Morten.
> >> ___
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> >> Bf-committers@blender.org
> >> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
> >>
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Morten Mikkelsen]

I have attached a proposal for a patch.
I put in a comment as well.



On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 6:29 AM, Morten Mikkelsen wrote:

> It would be extremely easy to fix this for just the most recently added
> bump mapping
> method should we choose to do it that way.
>
>
>
> In render_texture.c in the function ntap_bump_compute() At the top
> change the line:
> float Hscale = Tnor*mtex->norfac;
>
> such that it's negated:
> float Hscale = -Tnor*mtex->norfac;
>
> And then similarly in gpu_material.c in the function do_material_tex()
> change this line:
> norfac = hScale * mtex->norfac;
>
> such that it is also negated:
> norfac = -hScale * mtex->norfac;
>
> I apologize for not making this a real patch but I am sitting at my gf's
> laptop.
> Perhaps mario can cook one up? or I can do it later.
> But anyway, if someone wants to try it out, That's all it takes.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 12:50 AM, michael williamson <
> micha...@cowtoolsmedia.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In pretty much everything out there the convention is "white is True,
>> black is False"...
>>
>> in most DCC this equates to white being high (a bump) and black being
>> low(a crevice)...see lightwave, 3ds max, maya and also note that this
>> is consistent with the displacement map modifier in blender...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 25/02/11 08:18, Tom M wrote:
>> > Is there a 'standard' - ie does every other 3d animation package use
>> > the inverse of what we currently use?
>> >
>> > LetterRip
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Morten Mikkelsen
>>  wrote:
>> >> So as you guys most likely know white means down and black means up
>> when
>> >> bump mapping in Blender
>> >> which is kinda counter intuitive.
>> >> However, we recently did a completely new implementation of bump
>> mapping for
>> >> Blender
>> >> and I was wondering, since we kept in the original bump mapping methods
>> >> as available options, is there any good reason why we shouldn't let the
>> new
>> >> bump mapping
>> >> method use the more intuitive interpretation which is white is up and
>> black
>> >> is down?
>> >> We could just leave the legacy methods the way they are and only change
>> it
>> >> for the most recent method
>> >> of bump mapping (was added early this year).
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, was just a thought :)
>> >>
>> >>  Cheers,
>> >>
>> >>  Morten.
>> >> ___
>> >> Bf-committers mailing list
>> >> Bf-committers@blender.org
>> >> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>> >>
>> > ___
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>> > Bf-committers@blender.org
>> > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
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>>
>
>
Index: source/blender/render/intern/source/render_texture.c
===
--- source/blender/render/intern/source/render_texture.c(revision 35189)
+++ source/blender/render/intern/source/render_texture.c(working copy)
@@ -1899,8 +1899,14 @@
TexResult ttexr = {0, 0, 0, 0, 0, texres->talpha, NULL};// temp 
TexResult
 
const int fromrgb = ((tex->type == TEX_IMAGE) || ((tex->flag & 
TEX_COLORBAND)!=0));
-   float Hscale = Tnor*mtex->norfac;
 
+   // The negate on Hscale is done because the
+   // normal in the renderer points inward which corresponds
+   // to inverting the bump map. The normals are generated
+   // this way in calc_vertexnormals(). Should this ever change
+   // this negate must be removed.
+   float Hscale = -Tnor*mtex->norfac;
+
// 2 channels for 2D texture and 3 for 3D textures.
const int nr_channels = (mtex->texco == TEXCO_UV)? 2 : 3;
int c, rgbnor, iBumpSpace;
Index: source/blender/gpu/intern/gpu_material.c
===
--- source/blender/gpu/intern/gpu_material.c(revision 35189)
+++ source/blender/gpu/intern/gpu_material.c(working copy)
@@ -1081,7 +1081,12 @@

if( mtex->texflag & 
MTEX_BUMP_TEXTURESPACE )
hScale = hScaleTex;
-   norfac = hScale * mtex->norfac;
+
+   // The negate on norfac is done 
because the
+   // normal in the renderer 
points inward which corresponds
+   // to inverting the bump map. 
Should this ever change
+   // this negate must be removed.
+   norfac = -hScale * mtex->norfac;
tnorfac

Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Martin Bürbaum]

> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Morten Mikkelsen  
> wrote:
> > So as you guys most likely know white means down and black means up when
> > bump mapping in Blender
> > which is kinda counter intuitive.
[SNIP]
>
> Is there a 'standard' - ie does every other 3d animation package use
> the inverse of what we currently use?
> 
> LetterRip

My comment about this from IRC summarised:
"""
As far as I've seen most of the time black means valley/crevice and white means 
peak when it comes to bump-mapping.
See a simple example (orange sphere) here: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_mapping
Everything else feels kinda "unnatural". i.e. I myself just can't think of 
light=valleys & dark=peaks :-D
"""

That said: I've never seen any application that would assume white=valley.
Though I admit that I certainly can not cover a lot of them.
If there are any I guess somebody will bring it up :-)

Just my 2 euro cent.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com]

Kinda irrelevant imo since its so easy to invert, maybe if someone can
demonstrate that the mayority of other software does it the other way
then you'd have a point since it would simplify sharing from one
software to another.. a tiny bit

cheers

Daniel Salazar
www.3developer.com



2011/2/25 Jolly Charlie :
> I certainly think that it would be preferable to have this changed,
> especially when the displace modifier works the opposite way.
>
> I noticed this when porting the old tile texture to 2.5
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Ρυακιωτάκης Αντώνης]

I think black=crevice white=peak is the convention too. Most(all?) of the
bump-mapping related papers I've seen are written on this premise.
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Damir Prebeg]

I don't think it's irrelevant, it's more logic. IMHO black should be a
pit and white a hill. Black is absence, and white is presence.

On 25 February 2011 23:03, Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com
 wrote:
> Kinda irrelevant imo since its so easy to invert, maybe if someone can
> demonstrate that the mayority of other software does it the other way
> then you'd have a point since it would simplify sharing from one
> software to another.. a tiny bit
>
> cheers
>
> Daniel Salazar
> www.3developer.com
>
>
>
> 2011/2/25 Jolly Charlie :
>> I certainly think that it would be preferable to have this changed,
>> especially when the displace modifier works the opposite way.
>>
>> I noticed this when porting the old tile texture to 2.5
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Tobias Oelgarte]

Same thought on my side. White is a high value. Why making a peak am 
hole? Don't know any software that uses black for the tips of anything. 
Gimp uses white as peaks for bump mapping and any other known graphic 
software too. Even SVG-(Filters) define white as a high spot. At least 
it is the default for many programs.

Am 26.02.2011 22:31, schrieb Damir Prebeg:
> I don't think it's irrelevant, it's more logic. IMHO black should be a
> pit and white a hill. Black is absence, and white is presence.
>
> On 25 February 2011 23:03, Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com
>   wrote:
>> Kinda irrelevant imo since its so easy to invert, maybe if someone can
>> demonstrate that the mayority of other software does it the other way
>> then you'd have a point since it would simplify sharing from one
>> software to another.. a tiny bit
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Daniel Salazar
>> www.3developer.com
>>
>>
>>
>> 2011/2/25 Jolly Charlie:
>>> I certainly think that it would be preferable to have this changed,
>>> especially when the displace modifier works the opposite way.
>>>
>>> I noticed this when porting the old tile texture to 2.5
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com]

I asked around and apparently white is usually the peak and black the
hole in other software.. so from an integration perspective you are
right

Daniel Salazar
www.3developer.com
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Knapp]

Sorry but could not resist.

Black is yin, white is yang.

wiki
'It is impossible to talk about yin or yang without some reference to the
opposite, since yin and yang are bound together as parts of a mutual whole
(i.e. you cannot have the back of a hand without the front). A way to
illustrate this idea is to postulate the notion of a race with only men or
only women; this race would disappear in a single generation. Yet, men and
women together create new
generations that
allow the race they mutually create (and mutually come from) to survive. The
interaction of the two gives birth to
things.[3] Yin
and yang transform each other: like an undertow in the ocean, every advance
is complemented by a retreat, and every rise transforms into a fall. Thus, a
seed will sprout from the earth and grow upwards towards the sky – an
intrinsically yang movement. Then, when it reaches its full potential
height, it will fall.'

I would say that black as down and white as up has at least a 5000 year
history behind it.

:-)

-- 
Douglas E Knapp

Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies
with open source software!
http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php

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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Tobias Oelgarte]

Guess so. Alone the fact that the mapping of white as peaks and black as 
valleys is fairly similar to the actual shading result, makes it more 
intuitive. Valleys are often inside the shadow as the deep sun touches 
the mountain peaks. Pores of the skin are commonly darker then the rest 
of it. ...

Am 27.02.2011 09:43, schrieb Knapp:
> Sorry but could not resist.
>
> Black is yin, white is yang.
>
> wiki
> 'It is impossible to talk about yin or yang without some reference to the
> opposite, since yin and yang are bound together as parts of a mutual whole
> (i.e. you cannot have the back of a hand without the front). A way to
> illustrate this idea is to postulate the notion of a race with only men or
> only women; this race would disappear in a single generation. Yet, men and
> women together create new
> generations  that
> allow the race they mutually create (and mutually come from) to survive. The
> interaction of the two gives birth to
> things.[3]  Yin
> and yang transform each other: like an undertow in the ocean, every advance
> is complemented by a retreat, and every rise transforms into a fall. Thus, a
> seed will sprout from the earth and grow upwards towards the sky – an
> intrinsically yang movement. Then, when it reaches its full potential
> height, it will fall.'
>
> I would say that black as down and white as up has at least a 5000 year
> history behind it.
>
> :-)
>

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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Ρυακιωτάκης Αντώνης]

I vote for a yin and yang brush, activated by ctrl-clicking. :) No time for
a patch yet I'm afraid
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Sean Olson]

Wow, it seems like this is the rare issue where all seem to be in agreement!
 Seems white = up, black = down.  Though my word does not carry much weight
I would like to give a +1 to making it this way.

And I might as well throw my little analogy here - For bump mapping I always
thought of snow.   As snow piles up, things get more white.  As snow goes
away, things of course turn more brown/black.  Yet another of the seemingly
endless analogies for black equaling crevasses and white equaling peaks.
Hope this proposal goes through!

-Sean

2011/2/25 Ρυακιωτάκης Αντώνης 

> I think black=crevice white=peak is the convention too. Most(all?) of the
> bump-mapping related papers I've seen are written on this premise.
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com]

right.. we could come up with a million analogies for one or the other
side. Anyway I've done some investigation and the other mainstream
software I checked all use white for height an black for down. We
could have a fix like the one they did for normal maps

cheers

Daniel Salazar
www.3developer.com



2011/2/28 Sean Olson :
> Wow, it seems like this is the rare issue where all seem to be in agreement!
>  Seems white = up, black = down.  Though my word does not carry much weight
> I would like to give a +1 to making it this way.
>
> And I might as well throw my little analogy here - For bump mapping I always
> thought of snow.   As snow piles up, things get more white.  As snow goes
> away, things of course turn more brown/black.  Yet another of the seemingly
> endless analogies for black equaling crevasses and white equaling peaks.
> Hope this proposal goes through!
>
> -Sean
>
> 2011/2/25 Ρυακιωτάκης Αντώνης 
>
>> I think black=crevice white=peak is the convention too. Most(all?) of the
>> bump-mapping related papers I've seen are written on this premise.
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Morten Mikkelsen]

Just want to make sure everybody realizes I already attached my proposal for
a patch in my previous e-mail to this
discussion. There's also a comment I put in on why etc. Please check it out.

Morten.





On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com <
zan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> right.. we could come up with a million analogies for one or the other
> side. Anyway I've done some investigation and the other mainstream
> software I checked all use white for height an black for down. We
> could have a fix like the one they did for normal maps
>
> cheers
>
> Daniel Salazar
> www.3developer.com
>
>
>
> 2011/2/28 Sean Olson :
> > Wow, it seems like this is the rare issue where all seem to be in
> agreement!
> >  Seems white = up, black = down.  Though my word does not carry much
> weight
> > I would like to give a +1 to making it this way.
> >
> > And I might as well throw my little analogy here - For bump mapping I
> always
> > thought of snow.   As snow piles up, things get more white.  As snow goes
> > away, things of course turn more brown/black.  Yet another of the
> seemingly
> > endless analogies for black equaling crevasses and white equaling peaks.
> > Hope this proposal goes through!
> >
> > -Sean
> >
> > 2011/2/25 Ρυακιωτάκης Αντώνης 
> >
> >> I think black=crevice white=peak is the convention too. Most(all?) of
> the
> >> bump-mapping related papers I've seen are written on this premise.
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Ton Roosendaal]

Hi,

The way it works now in Blender is just ancient convoluted history.
My idea would be to postpone such changes and do this together with a  
decent redesign & makeover of the internal shader/light/texture system.

It's also about focus... let's try to get blender out of beta for 2.5  
targets first. We're close, so the sooner a project for new shaders  
can start. :)

-Ton-


Ton Roosendaal  Blender Foundation   t...@blender.orgwww.blender.org
Blender Institute   Entrepotdok 57A  1018AD Amsterdam   The Netherlands

On 26 Feb, 2011, at 22:56, Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com wrote:

> I asked around and apparently white is usually the peak and black the
> hole in other software.. so from an integration perspective you are
> right
>
> Daniel Salazar
> www.3developer.com
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Morten Mikkelsen]

>
> >The way it works now in Blender is just ancient convoluted history.
>

My understanding is that with oldbump (2.49) it never really worked?
Meaning it would flip the effect from in to out and vice versa as you
bank/rotate the surface relative to the camera right?
In which case a consistent choice wasn't really made until newbump from last
year which as you say
was an abandoned project by the author himself because it was too faulty or
tough to manage or whatever.
Assuming my understanding of history is correct? Then it seems to me we're
not really violating any long withstanding tradition
by applying the patch.

Morten.
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Knapp]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com <
zan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> right.. we could come up with a million analogies for one or the other
> side. Anyway I've done some investigation and the other mainstream
> software I checked all use white for height an black for down. We
> could have a fix like the one they did for normal maps
>
> cheers
>
> Daniel Salazar
> www.3developer.com
>
>
I have yet to see one where things get blacker as they go up. Do you have
one? Just asking out of fun though.

-- 
Douglas E Knapp

Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies
with open source software!
http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php

Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer:
http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm
Please link to me and trade links with me!

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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Morten Mikkelsen]

Can't think of any that don't contain the word "Blender" :)


On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Knapp  wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com <
> zan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > right.. we could come up with a million analogies for one or the other
> > side. Anyway I've done some investigation and the other mainstream
> > software I checked all use white for height an black for down. We
> > could have a fix like the one they did for normal maps
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Daniel Salazar
> > www.3developer.com
> >
> >
> I have yet to see one where things get blacker as they go up. Do you have
> one? Just asking out of fun though.
>
> --
> Douglas E Knapp
>
> Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies
> with open source software!
> http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php
>
> Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer:
> http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm
> Please link to me and trade links with me!
>
> Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project.
> http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page
> http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Luke Frisken]

Things get blacker as you leave earth's atmosphere and head into space :)

On 3/2/11, Knapp  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com <
> zan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> right.. we could come up with a million analogies for one or the other
>> side. Anyway I've done some investigation and the other mainstream
>> software I checked all use white for height an black for down. We
>> could have a fix like the one they did for normal maps
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Daniel Salazar
>> www.3developer.com
>>
>>
> I have yet to see one where things get blacker as they go up. Do you have
> one? Just asking out of fun though.
>
> --
> Douglas E Knapp
>
> Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies
> with open source software!
> http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php
>
> Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer:
> http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm
> Please link to me and trade links with me!
>
> Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project.
> http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page
> http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/
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-- 
Sent from my mobile device

>From Luke
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Re: [Bf-committers] bump mapping - white is down & black is up???

[Tobias Oelgarte]

Only if you don't accidentally head in direction of the sun ;-)

Am 02.03.2011 09:09, schrieb Luke Frisken:
> Things get blacker as you leave earth's atmosphere and head into space :)
>
> On 3/2/11, Knapp  wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Daniel Salazar - 3Developer.com<
>> zan...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> right.. we could come up with a million analogies for one or the other
>>> side. Anyway I've done some investigation and the other mainstream
>>> software I checked all use white for height an black for down. We
>>> could have a fix like the one they did for normal maps
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> Daniel Salazar
>>> www.3developer.com
>>>
>>>
>> I have yet to see one where things get blacker as they go up. Do you have
>> one? Just asking out of fun though.
>>
>> --
>> Douglas E Knapp
>>
>> Creative Commons Film Group, Helping people make open source movies
>> with open source software!
>> http://douglas.bespin.org/CommonsFilmGroup/phpBB3/index.php
>>
>> Massage in Gelsenkirchen-Buer:
>> http://douglas.bespin.org/tcm/ztab1.htm
>> Please link to me and trade links with me!
>>
>> Open Source Sci-Fi mmoRPG Game project.
>> http://sf-journey-creations.wikispot.org/Front_Page
>> http://code.google.com/p/perspectiveproject/
>> ___
>> Bf-committers mailing list
>> Bf-committers@blender.org
>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
>>

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