Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Spencer Gardner via Bikies]

>
> > Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so based on
> > some need that we probably don't know about.
> =v= My experience is that this is true some of the time, but not most of
> the time.  So I can't really assume that.

So instead you will gladly assume that they are not actually in need but
instead looking to somehow cheat the system and also ruin everyone else's
cycling experience? I'm curious how one would actually know that it is not
true most of the time short of stopping the users to actually talk to them.

And even if it were "for convenience" should that disqualify them? I mean
that in the hypothetical sense assuming we could craft a law from scratch,
not as a reference to the current legal status. I see a lot of jerks on
their training rides whizzing by within a foot or two of pedestrians at
unsafe speeds without a motor. Why are e-bikes singled out as the problem?


> =v= This has become a problem even in Amsterdam.  Since the main technical
> advance in recent years is motors that can now be hidden, the police have
> had to resort to checkpoints on cycletracks in which they take a
> motor-powered bike and put it on a roller to see how fast it can go.

Citation? Not questioning its truth, just wanting to get more information.
I find this interesting since motorized scooters (mopeds) are allowed on
bike paths in the Netherlands. Paths are obviously not functionally the
same as cycle tracks, but it would seem an odd place for the Netherlands to
crack down given the relaxed view toward mixing motorized and non-motorized
equipment.
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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[via Bikies]

Hahaha!  http://organictransit.com/
(Too big for the bikeway.)

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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Jym Dyer via Bikies]

Quoting Robert Schultz:
> it could be that population is more educated about the laws
> regarding motorized bicycles than the average traditional
> cyclist in the same way that traditional cyclists are more
> knowledgeable about cycling laws than motorists are, even
> though both bicycles and cars are legally vehicles.

=v= I've seen no evidence of that.  Bicyclists, sure, at least
those of us involved in advocacy, may have taken some sort of
certified instruction and/or have had to argue with motorists,
police, and John Forester for a few decades.  But I know of no
such educational efforts that come with e-gadgets, aside from
salespeople asserting that they're legal to use everywhere.

=v= Since the specific offense we're talking about here is
speeding, I'm afraid I can't share any optimism about that.
I've already mentioned the disconnect between gadget speed
and facilities engineering in California, but overall it's
an epidemic across the country regardless of transportation
mode.  There is absolutely no reason to believe that suddenly
a new population of road users will decide not to speed.
(Oh, and those salespeople I mentioned in the last paragraph
will casually mention illegal upgrades that will make your
gadget go even faster.)

=v= This has become a problem even in Amsterdam.  Since the
main technical advance in recent years is motors that can
now be hidden, the police have had to resort to checkpoints
on cycletracks in which they take a motor-powered bike and
put it on a roller to see how fast it can go.
<_Jym_>
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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Jym Dyer via Bikies]

Quoting Brian Mink:
> Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so
> based on some need that we probably don't know about.

=v= My experience is that this is true some of the time, but
not most of the time.  So I can't really assume that.

> I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric
> bikes do have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum
> speed, passing, remaining non aggressive and the like.

=v= I'm not sure which cities you mean.  There are laws which
apply, but signs that are posted at bike paths are rare, and
are often incomplete or inaccurate about those laws.  Certainly
no bike lanes have any sort of signage, either.

=v= I know that California designs most of its bicycle
facilities to accommodate a maximum speed of 20mph, yet the
latest e-gadget lobbying push that was directed at the state
legislature, the state bike advocacy organization, and a bunch
of local bike advocacy organizations were for the purpose of
having a 25mph device legally defined as a bicycle.
<_Jym_>
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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Jym Dyer via Bikies]

Quoting tim wong:
>> And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.
>> By far, the most people who use them will be former
>> bicyclists.

=v= This is exactly my concern, because for decades the
purveyors of e-gadgets have targeted bicyclists for their
sales and marketing, not motorists.  We are in the midst
of a nationwide campaign that is simultaneously lobbying
state legislatures and bicycle advocacy organizations to
accept and promote electric bikes in bicycle facilities
and at bicycle events.

=v= I'm on many bicycle email lists and web fora, and no
matter what the list or forum is putatively for, there is
always someone there to peddle e-gadgets, promising that
they will make all my dreams come true, why don't you try
one right now?  You'd like it if you tried it, you know.
And articles like this one by Gretchen Reynolds show up
in newspapers' active living or sports sections instead
of, say, the automobile sections.

=v= My rule of thumb is pretty simple:

  If an e-gadget replaces car use, that's good.
  If an e-gadget replaces bicycle use, that's bad.

If an e-gadget would get people out of a car who could
ride a bicycle but wouldn't, that just raises questions
about why they wouldn't.  Seems more like an opportunity
being lost thanks to half-measures.

Quoting "via Bikies":
> I also don't get all the hostility about them.

=v= I wouldn't say I'm hostile _per_se_, but I am well and
truly annoyed by the relentless shilling and cluelessness.
Certainly I see applications for electric motors, parents
carrying kids in cargo bikes, or folks with actual mobility
issues.  I see some of the former and relatively few of the
latter, but mostly I see people 30 years younger the me who
are entranced by gadgetry (and could use some exercise).
<_Jym_>
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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Brian Mink via Bikies]

I think one can make a reasonable argument that there are really two 
classes of electric bicycles:


1) Electric assist which requires pedaling input in order to activate 
and continue the use of the electric assist motor. The intent being that 
the motor is primarily used to assist in climbing inclines and hills.


2) Full time electric which requires no action other than using a thumb 
or twist throttle to start the motor and require no pedaling input where 
there may be a bicycle drive train but the pedals are for all intents 
and purposes only for holding one's feet off the ground.


I think you can reasonably argue that the second class should be 
confined to streets versus trails.


As manufacturers make more powerful, faster, non pedaling input required 
versions I think it reasonable that they ought to be restricted to streets.


I would argue that purely pedal with electric assist have a place on 
trails so long as they cannot exceed some reasonable speed that does not 
exceed the normal bicycle traffic speed on the path.


Brian Mink
Monona


ivar moi via Bikies <mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 10:24 AM


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Chuck Strawser via Bikies <mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 10:14 AM
Brian Mink said: "I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow 
electric bikes do have rules that include behaving in regard to 
maximum speed, passing, remaining non aggressive and the like. Should 
Madison have such rules and post them? Probably."


Madison already has rules, and does post them. They are on all the 
wayfinding signs along bike paths all around town, and among those 
rules is this one:

"Faster {path] users yield to slower users"

Which gets to the crux of the issue - how someone operates their 
vehicle is often as important (or more important) to the safety of 
others than exactly what kind of vehicle it is.




Chuck Strawser
Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
Commuter Solutions
UW-Madison Transportation Services

Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is 
charles.straw...@wisc.edu<mailto:charles.straw...@wisc.edu>


Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White: 
http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx


How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey at 
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey





From: Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org] On Behalf Of 
Brian Mink via Bikies

Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 9:59 AM
To: rpaol...@execpc.com
Cc: Scott Morris Rose; Bikies
Subject: Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health 
Benefits of an Electric Bike


I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than 
optimal joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes 
or wheels with hub motors.


I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using 
electric assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid 
hauler electric assist bikes on trails around town.


I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core 
enthusiasts will put off or scorn the thought of using electric 
assist. Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so 
based on some need that we probably don't know about. Many work places 
don't have showers. Electric assist one could image, can keep one 
below the gushing sweat threshold on the morning commute.


I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do 
have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing, 
remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules 
and post them? Probably.


Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into 
the need for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll 
look back on our years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion 
that we were not being understanding, nice or fair.


Brian Mink
Monona


via Bikies<mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM

If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let

them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.



Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being

on the bike paths. And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.

> By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.



I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when

someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.)

But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how

discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an

electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who

thinks he's doing Tour de France. A moron on an electric-assist bike is

Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[ivar moi via Bikies]

It’s a motor cycle and belongs on the street not a bike path-just like this:On 
Jul 8, 2016, at 10:14 AM, Chuck Strawser via Bikies <bikies@lists.danenet.org> 
wrote:
> 
> Brian Mink said: “I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow 
> electric bikes do have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum 
> speed, passing, remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have 
> such rules and post them? Probably.”
>  
> Madison already has rules, and does post them. They are on all the wayfinding 
> signs along bike paths all around town, and among those rules is this one:
> “Faster {path] users yield to slower users”
>  
> Which gets to the crux of the issue – how someone operates their vehicle is 
> often as important (or more important) to the safety of others than exactly 
> what kind of vehicle it is.
>  
>  
>  
> Chuck Strawser
> Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
> Commuter Solutions
> UW-Madison Transportation Services
>  
> Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is 
> charles.straw...@wisc.edu <mailto:charles.straw...@wisc.edu>
>  
> Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C 
> White:http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx 
> <http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx>
>  
> How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey 
> athttps://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey 
> <https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey>
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org 
> <mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org>] On Behalf Of Brian Mink via Bikies
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 9:59 AM
> To: rpaol...@execpc.com <mailto:rpaol...@execpc.com>
> Cc: Scott Morris Rose; Bikies
> Subject: Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health 
> Benefits of an Electric Bike
>  
> I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than optimal 
> joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes or wheels with 
> hub motors.
> 
> I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using electric 
> assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid hauler electric 
> assist bikes on trails around town.
> 
> I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core enthusiasts 
> will put off or scorn the thought of using electric assist. Let's assume that 
> most folks who use electric assist do so based on some need that we probably 
> don't know about. Many work places don't have showers. Electric assist one 
> could image, can keep one below the gushing sweat threshold on the morning 
> commute. 
> 
> I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do have 
> rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing, remaining 
> non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules and post them? 
> Probably.
> 
> Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into the need 
> for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll look back on our 
> years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion that we were not being 
> understanding, nice or fair.
> 
> Brian Mink
> Monona
> 
> 
> via Bikies <mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
> July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM
> If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
> them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.
> 
> Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being
> on the bike paths.  And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.
>  > By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.
>  
> I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when
> someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.) 
> But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how
> discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an
> electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who
> thinks he's doing Tour de France.  A moron on an electric-assist bike is
> not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in Spandex.
>  
> As for the opinion that most people using them will be former bicyclists,
> so what?  If it helps keep on a bike someone who has diminished physical
> capability, what's wrong with that?
>  
> ___
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> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org 
> <http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org>
> 

Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Chuck Strawser via Bikies]

Brian Mink said: "I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric 
bikes do have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing, 
remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules and post 
them? Probably."

Madison already has rules, and does post them. They are on all the wayfinding 
signs along bike paths all around town, and among those rules is this one:
"Faster {path] users yield to slower users"

Which gets to the crux of the issue - how someone operates their vehicle is 
often as important (or more important) to the safety of others than exactly 
what kind of vehicle it is.



Chuck Strawser
Pedestrian & Bicycle Transportation Planner
Commuter Solutions
UW-Madison Transportation Services

Please note that my email address has changed. My new email is 
charles.straw...@wisc.edu<mailto:charles.straw...@wisc.edu>

Visit our University Bicycle Resource Center at Helen C White: 
http://transportation.wisc.edu/transportation/bike_annex.aspx

How are we doing? Take our customer satisfaction survey at 
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CommSol_CSSurvey




From: Bikies [mailto:bikies-boun...@lists.danenet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Mink 
via Bikies
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 9:59 AM
To: rpaol...@execpc.com
Cc: Scott Morris Rose; Bikies
Subject: Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits 
of an Electric Bike

I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than optimal 
joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes or wheels with 
hub motors.

I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using electric 
assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid hauler electric assist 
bikes on trails around town.

I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core enthusiasts 
will put off or scorn the thought of using electric assist. Let's assume that 
most folks who use electric assist do so based on some need that we probably 
don't know about. Many work places don't have showers. Electric assist one 
could image, can keep one below the gushing sweat threshold on the morning 
commute.

I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do have 
rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing, remaining non 
aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules and post them? Probably.

Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into the need 
for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll look back on our 
years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion that we were not being 
understanding, nice or fair.

Brian Mink
Monona


via Bikies<mailto:bikies@lists.danenet.org>
July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM

If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let

them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.



Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being

on the bike paths.  And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.

 > By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.



I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when

someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.)

But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how

discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an

electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who

thinks he's doing Tour de France.  A moron on an electric-assist bike is

not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in Spandex.



As for the opinion that most people using them will be former bicyclists,

so what?  If it helps keep on a bike someone who has diminished physical

capability, what's wrong with that?



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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Brian Mink via Bikies]

I happen to know folks who due to one arthritic malady or less than 
optimal joint replacement surgery have opted for electric assist bikes 
or wheels with hub motors.


I also have taken note of many more cyclists of larger habitus using 
electric assist bikes. Then there are a whole bunch or cargo/kid hauler 
electric assist bikes on trails around town.


I think they are a good thing. Most of us able bodied, hard core 
enthusiasts will put off or scorn the thought of using electric assist. 
Let's assume that most folks who use electric assist do so based on some 
need that we probably don't know about. Many work places don't have 
showers. Electric assist one could image, can keep one below the gushing 
sweat threshold on the morning commute.


I've noticed that most west coast cities that allow electric bikes do 
have rules that include behaving in regard to maximum speed, passing, 
remaining non aggressive and the like. Should Madison have such rules 
and post them? Probably.


Bottom line is: even the heartiest of urban cyclists might age into the 
need for an electric assist bicycle at some point and then we'll look 
back on our years of scorn and finally come to the conclusion that we 
were not being understanding, nice or fair.


Brian Mink
Monona


via Bikies 
July 8, 2016 at 9:45 AM

If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.



Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being
on the bike paths.  And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.

  >  By far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.

I personally could not see myself wanting one. (Years ago I tried one when
someone from MGE was demo-ing one at some event and I wasn't impressed.)
But I also don't get all the hostility about them. I don't see how
discourteous/unsafe passing is any more or less obnoxious by someone on an
electric-assist bike than it is by someone on a traditional bike who
thinks he's doing Tour de France.  A moron on an electric-assist bike is
not inherently worse or more dangerous than a moron in Spandex.

As for the opinion that most people using them will be former bicyclists,
so what?  If it helps keep on a bike someone who has diminished physical
capability, what's wrong with that?

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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[Eric White via Bikies]

And don't get me started on bikes with chains. Either ride a draisine the
way God intended or get off the path!

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 1:17 AM, tim wong via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
> them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.  There are a
> few motorized bikes riding around the east side and, like all motorists,
> they are not careful and ride way too close to bikes they pass.
> Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being on
> the bike paths.  And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.  By
> far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.
>
> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 6:30 PM, Scott Morris Rose via Bikies <
> bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:
>
>> Reporting on a small-scale health study in Boulder of electric-assist
>> bicycles, part of an initiative to formulate policy on whether to allow
>> them on bike paths. They conclude that these bikes are a good way to get
>> sedentary folks into better shape. The article comments are (mostly) also
>> worth a read.
>>
>> (For my part, I hate on the fucking things, particularly whenever
>> somebody passes me a little too close on one. But that's my problem, and
>> not really relevant to policy.)
>>
>>
>> http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/the-surprising-health-benefits-of-an-electric-bike-2/
>>
>> --
>> S. Rose
>> I am the one who noshes!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Earlier this year I was fined $1221 by the city for having wildflowers in
> my terrace and a burning bush in my yard. My trial occurred more than
> three months after the city council unanimously approved the "Pollinator
> Protection Task Force" report which seeks to protect pollinators--bees,
> butterflies, moths, bats, hummingbirds, etc., and preserve pollinator
> habitat  But the city's Building Inspection Division didn't get the "memo"
> and continues to order pollinator habitat removed and prosecutes people who
> don't comply. If you feel the ordinances on the books should be amended,
> sign my petition:
> http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/revise-ordinances-banning-flowers-in-yards-and-terrace
>
>
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>
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Re: [Bikies] NYTimes/Gretchen Reynolds: The Surprising Health Benefits of an Electric Bike

[tim wong via Bikies]

If that what it takes to get these sedentary brutes onto a bike, then let
them ride their electric bikes on roads and not on bike paths.  There are a
few motorized bikes riding around the east side and, like all motorists,
they are not careful and ride way too close to bikes they pass.
Admittedly, my n is pretty small, but I resent these lazy assholes being on
the bike paths.  And it's bogus to say these are for sedentary folks.  By
far, the most people who use them will be former bicyclists.

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 6:30 PM, Scott Morris Rose via Bikies <
bikies@lists.danenet.org> wrote:

> Reporting on a small-scale health study in Boulder of electric-assist
> bicycles, part of an initiative to formulate policy on whether to allow
> them on bike paths. They conclude that these bikes are a good way to get
> sedentary folks into better shape. The article comments are (mostly) also
> worth a read.
>
> (For my part, I hate on the fucking things, particularly whenever somebody
> passes me a little too close on one. But that's my problem, and not really
> relevant to policy.)
>
>
> http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/the-surprising-health-benefits-of-an-electric-bike-2/
>
> --
> S. Rose
> I am the one who noshes!
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Bikies mailing list
> Bikies@lists.danenet.org
> http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org
>
>


-- 

Earlier this year I was fined $1221 by the city for having wildflowers in
my terrace and a burning bush in my yard. My trial occurred more than three
months after the city council unanimously approved the "Pollinator
Protection Task Force" report which seeks to protect pollinators--bees,
butterflies, moths, bats, hummingbirds, etc., and preserve pollinator
habitat  But the city's Building Inspection Division didn't get the "memo"
and continues to order pollinator habitat removed and prosecutes people who
don't comply. If you feel the ordinances on the books should be amended,
sign my petition:
http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/revise-ordinances-banning-flowers-in-yards-and-terrace
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