Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Andrew Crystall]

On 26 Jun 2003 at 22:31, Julia Thompson wrote:

> Dan Minette wrote:
> 
> > Another example is the fact that half of the EU budget goes to
> > subsidize inefficient farms.
> 
> Really?  How big is that budget?  Where does the rest of it go?

You mean the Common Agricultural Policy?

Firstly, not all of the farms are inefficient. Secondly, it's being 
revised at the moment.

Andy
Dawn Falcon

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Re: Aw drat! I found a "B" but Julia's post anyway.

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 6/26/2003 10:50:56 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Are you sure? I thought it was just a missprent by some human.

Not sure of anything. 

I do not have a pronouncement from on high.

I was going to wait for a response from Julia before I sent anything
in to our good Dr. Brin.

The words of a punster carry little weight compared to those of a 
woman pregnant with twins.

The B being an error is a very minor point compared to everything 
else that was mentioned.

And we don't know that if the B is an error, whether the error is then
one of inclusion or dyslexic transubstantiation. Was it supposed to 
be a D or a P?

William Taylor

(I forget. Did I post the bar scene to the group? 

There was a hoon, a human, and a chimp sitting at a bar)
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Re: Custer and Little Big Horn

[Damon]

? Not my my circles it isn't out of fasion at all. In fact the latest tribal
newspaper has several stories on wariors who are serving in the middle east.
What would the "good reason" be?
Umm, an indian fighter is one who fights indians!

Damon.


Damon Agretto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."
Now Building: Esci/Italeri's M60A1 Patton

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Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Erik Reuter]

Here's some data I obtained from the superb compendium _Triumph of the
Optimists_ by Dimson, Marsh, and Staunton. This book presents data and
commentary for 1900-2000 for the returns of equities, bonds, bills, and
inflation for 16 countries.

I've copied some of the data below for a selection of countries. This
data is the annualized percent real total equity returns (dividend
reinvested plus capital gains, inflation corrected). I also included
annualized percentage growth of real GDP and real GDP per capita for the
101 year period. Note that there is little to no correlation between
real GDP and equity returns. Depending on what kind of economic growth
you are interested in, I think a case can be made for using real equity
returns, real GDP, or real GDP per capita as a metric. They are all
useful in various circumstances.


years   Austral France  Germany Japan   Sweden  Switzrl UK  US  World
-
1900-20   7.8 1.0-4.9 9.4 7.9-9.4 0.2 2.5 0.8
1920-40  12.8 1.8 6.1 6.4 3.6 6.9 5.9 8.0 7.2
1940-60   6.0 3.8 5.7-2.7 8.6 7.2 8.3 9.7 8.8
1960-80   2.7 0.0 0.6 5.9 1.1 2.5 2.5 2.4 3.2
1980-00   8.412.810.7 4.817.510.212.311.2 9.4
-
1900-2000
equities  7.5 3.8 3.6 4.5 7.6 5.0 5.8 6.7 5.8
-
1900-2000
Real GDP  3.3 2.4 2.8 4.1 2.6 2.7 1.9 3.3 2.9
-
1900-2000
Real GDP  1.6 2.0 1.8 3.0 2.0 1.8 1.4 2.0 2.1
per cap
-


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Erik Reuter]

On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 09:11:02PM -0500, Dan Minette wrote:

> From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> At 06:16 PM 6/26/03 -0500, Dan Minette wrote:
>
> > >Right, but the median real wage started going down around 1980.
> > >The increase in income for all but the top 20% of households was
> > >due to the additional hours work outstripping the drop in wagers.
>
> >Wanna bet?

You gotta watch out for Ronn, he's nailed me a couple times recently. (I
think he's taken over Alberto's responsibilities since Alberto has been
shirking his duties...)

Anyway, a "wager" is a bet.


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Erik Reuter]

On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 03:30:33PM -0500, Dan Minette wrote:

> http://econ161.berkeley.edu/movable_type/archives/000949.html
>
> we find recent quotes from the IMF showing that the US now leads
> Europe in productivity per hour 

Huh? I read it that in 2001, Germany, France, and Italy all beat the
US in productivity, as measured by GDP per worker-hour. The US was
normalized to 100, and Germany, France, and Italy were 106, 115, and
117.


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Erik Reuter]

On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 04:04:13PM -0700, Gautam Mukunda wrote:

> Yeah, but out real motto should be:  "We have healthy demographics,
> while Europe (with the exception of Britain) is about to go down the
> toilet because of the age of its population."

America's demographics aren't so hot either, just not as bad as
Europe's. But that isn't anything to be happy about. As William
Bernstein puts it, a lot of retired Americans may be eating Alpo in 20
years. Probably a lot of people won't be able to retire.

http://www.efficientfrontier.com/ef/103/hell4.htm

> Europe is, to put it mildly, catastrophic.

True, but most of the developed world has the same problem, albeit to
a lesser degree. I predict that unless we make some major advances in
robotics and artificial intelligence, the 20th century will be looked
upon as a singular golden age and the 21st century will be a lot slower
in economic growth, if not actually declines.


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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RE: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism

[Horn, John]

> From: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Well... it depends on if the stones are standing upright or 
> not, I guess. :)

Why?  Did they have too much to drink at the Solstice Party?

(Couldn't resist.)

  - jmh

Should Have Maru
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Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 09:11 PM 6/26/03 -0500, Dan Minette wrote:

- Original Message -
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth
At 06:16 PM 6/26/03 -0500, Dan Minette wrote:

>>Right, but the median real wage started going down around 1980.  The
>>increase in income for all but the top 20% of households was due to the
>>additional hours work outstripping the drop in wagers.
 ^^


>Wanna bet?
   ^^^
[snip "obviously didn't get it" response]


<*ahem*>  Read the post of yours I was replying to more carefully . . .

;-)

Speling Flamme Maru



-- Ronn! :)

God bless America,
Land that I love!
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam…
God bless America!
My home, sweet home.
-- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)

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Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth


At 09:11 PM 6/26/03 -0500, Dan Minette wrote:

>- Original Message -
>From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:03 PM
>Subject: Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth
>
>
>At 06:16 PM 6/26/03 -0500, Dan Minette wrote:
>
>
> >>Right, but the median real wage started going down around 1980.  The
> >>increase in income for all but the top 20% of households was due to the
> >>additional hours work outstripping the drop in wagers.
>  ^^
>
>
>
> >Wanna bet?
>^^^
>
>
>[snip "obviously didn't get it" response]



<*ahem*>  Read the post of yours I was replying to more carefully . . .


;-)


Speling Flamme Maru

OK, you got me. :-)


Dan M.



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Re: this might be an interesting article

[Matt Grimaldi]

Deborah Harrell wrote:
> 
> Question:  What would a Southern Baptist have to say
> if his/her child came home from school with a flier
> inviting the child to 'Join the fellowship of Allah:
> follow the adventures of Ahmed and Fatima as they
> learn to apply the lessons of the Koran to everyday
> life and its problems!  Sign up for Bellydancing and
> Sworddancing Classes' etc.
> 
> I can hear the righteous screaming now.
> 
> I'd object to *any* religious organization attempting
> to convert my child from whatever I saw fit to teach
> them WRT the Divine And spirituality.  


There is a legal precedent that might possibly be
stretched to fit this situation.  Public utilities
put inserts into their bill envelops which sometimes
would contain political messages.  This was challenged
legally, and the outcome was that they could still
put politically based info in their billing envelopes
as long as they allowed the same access to the
envelopes to anyone else who wanted it.  Most utilities
stopped any inserts not relating to their services
or safety issues altogether.

Basically if you insist on opening the door, you
have to open it for everyone who wants in.

I'd agree with you, though, that this particular
door should stay closed.


> 
> I actually have no objection to a religious group
> using a public school after-hours, if all religious
> groups are allowed to do so.  OK, maybe not the
> FreeLove Fishers of Men... ;)

Or even student clubs which meet during school
hours (i.e. lunch), as long as they are not
made any part of any official school functions.


-- Matt
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Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth


> On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 03:30:33PM -0500, Dan Minette wrote:
>
> > http://econ161.berkeley.edu/movable_type/archives/000949.html
> >
> > we find recent quotes from the IMF showing that the US now leads
> > Europe in productivity per hour
>
> Huh? I read it that in 2001, Germany, France, and Italy all beat the
> US in productivity, as measured by GDP per worker-hour. The US was
> normalized to 100, and Germany, France, and Italy were 106, 115, and
> 117.

I was reading a different table and the text.  I think I misread the slope
as the total productivity.  Its interesting that Brad's paper has the US
staying in front of those countries in productivity. France is at 98% of
the US productivity in '98.  Since the trend since then has been superior
US productivity, we see the difference there.

Another, more important difference relating to per capita GDP  is the hours
worked by Americans. Here's the '98 data for that:

France 580
Germany  670
Italy  637
United Kingdom  682
12 West Europe  657
Ireland 672
Spain  648
United States 791

Dan M.




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RE: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Chad Cooper]

On NPR last night, they had a guy on that suggested that for the median
worker, the Nordic countries have a higher standard of living than in the
United States.
He also suggested that there will be the rise of what he called Confucianism
economics, where Asia will become the dominant economic power. He included
China and India as part of Asia.
He stated that in India, they are benefiting from the colonialism of
Britain, which brought English as a secondary language, and significant
education for the masses. There will be a demographic of 40-something's
Indians who are educated, speak English, and have access to the West's
technology.

He did downplay Capitalism as a positive economic model.

On an alternate subject, where will Africa be in 2050? They have almost
completely opposite problems in regard to an aging population. 

Nerd From Hell

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Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Erik Reuter]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 08:03:02AM -0700, Chad Cooper wrote:

> He stated that in India, they are benefiting from the colonialism
> of Britain, which brought English as a secondary language, and
> significant education for the masses. There will be a demographic
> of 40-something's Indians who are educated, speak English, and have
> access to the West's technology.

The Economist just did a comparison of China to India. China has been
blowing India away in growth for the past 25 years or so. There were
a lot of reasons cited, but it basically comes down to bureacracy and
corruption. Interesting that India is worse than China on that. The
Economist said that things started to improve a little in India in the
90's, but it didn't seem that India was likely to match China's growth
any time soon, if ever.

-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Liberia's woes

[Chad Cooper]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/931163.asp

"Angry crowds laid the bodies of murdered civilians, attacked while
sheltering in the U.S. diplomatic complex, outside the U.S. Embassy in
Liberia's capital, accusing the United States of failing to protect
Monrovia's people."

So what is it they expect us to do? How can a military presence in Africa
solve any of their problems?

It really made me mad to have people hold the US to the same standard other
people condemn us for.

Nerd From Hell



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Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Richard Baker]

Gautam said:

> Herbert Stein famously said that an unsustainable
> trend will not be sustained.  I don't quite see how
> this particular trend is going to end, though.

By 2050, I fully expect full-spectrum anti-agathic treatments, a mature
nanotechnology, human-equivalent AI and so forth. Given all that, I
think the demographic arguments won't count for much. Need more
workers? Just manufacture some more human-grade AIs, etc. etc.

Rich, who is actually quite serious.
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RE: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[Chad Cooper]

>By 2050, I fully expect full-spectrum anti-agathic treatments, a mature
>nanotechnology, human-equivalent AI and so forth.

Drexler himself recently responded to Richard Smalley's claim that Molecular
manufacturing is a pipedream. Drexler is still confident we will have
molecular assemblers, but it will take longer that he first predicted. 
If you are referring to large-scale nanotechnology like MEMS, well, its here
today.
Recently I saw an add from Forbes mag of a new mag they have that provides
investment advice to those who want to invest in nanotechnology.


 Given all that, I
>think the demographic arguments won't count for much. Need more
>workers? Just manufacture some more human-grade AIs, etc. etc.

AI is tough to do. I would say we don't need human grade AI. I mean, who
wants to deal with a bunch of (depressed) Marvin's

However, I have stated on my resume that if I was to go back to school, I
would either study Nanomedicine or AI pathology. I'm optimistic!


Nerd from Hell
Born-again Extropian

>
>Rich, who is actually quite serious.
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Re: Custer and Little Big Horn

[Jan Coffey]

--- Damon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >? Not my my circles it isn't out of fasion at all. In fact the latest
> tribal
> >newspaper has several stories on wariors who are serving in the middle
> east.
> >What would the "good reason" be?
> 
> Umm, an indian fighter is one who fights indians!
> 

Ha! Is an unlaufull comantant one who combants unlaufulls? 
Fright Liner, sawdust, styrophome or other such packing material used to line
fright.
Punk Rocker, one who gives comfort and consolment to punks
American railroader, one who railroads americans.
...


=
_
   Jan William Coffey
_

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Re: Liberia's woes

[Andrew Crystall]

On 27 Jun 2003 at 8:59, Chad Cooper wrote:

> http://www.msnbc.com/news/931163.asp
> 
> "Angry crowds laid the bodies of murdered civilians, attacked while
> sheltering in the U.S. diplomatic complex, outside the U.S. Embassy in
> Liberia's capital, accusing the United States of failing to protect
> Monrovia's people."

Didn't you read the "in the U.S. diplomatic complex". If they can't 
defend the complex, then they need to seal it off, or to evacuate...

Andy
Dawn Falcon

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Re: Liberia's woes

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 06:47 PM 6/27/03 +0100, Andrew Crystall wrote:
On 27 Jun 2003 at 8:59, Chad Cooper wrote:

> http://www.msnbc.com/news/931163.asp
>
> "Angry crowds laid the bodies of murdered civilians, attacked while
> sheltering in the U.S. diplomatic complex, outside the U.S. Embassy in
> Liberia's capital, accusing the United States of failing to protect
> Monrovia's people."
Didn't you read the "in the U.S. diplomatic complex". If they can't
defend the complex, then they need to seal it off, or to evacuate...


And if they *had* defended it, the headlines would read "U.S. Butchers Open 
Fire, Slaughter Peaceful Demonstrators".



Can't Win Maru



-- Ronn! :)

God bless America,
Land that I love!
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam…
God bless America!
My home, sweet home.
-- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)

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Re: Custer and Little Big Horn

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 10:27 AM 6/27/03 -0700, Jan Coffey wrote:

--- Damon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >? Not my my circles it isn't out of fasion at all. In fact the latest
> tribal
> >newspaper has several stories on wariors who are serving in the middle
> east.
> >What would the "good reason" be?
>
> Umm, an indian fighter is one who fights indians!
>
Ha! Is an unlaufull comantant one who combants unlaufulls?
Fright Liner, sawdust, styrophome or other such packing material used to line
fright.
Punk Rocker, one who gives comfort and consolment to punks
American railroader, one who railroads americans.


English is such a consistent language . . .



The Tough Coughed As He Went Through The Rough Thoroughly Enough Maru



-- Ronn :)

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882), in "Self Reliance" (1841)
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Re: Holiday Lights, was [Humor] RE: Question RegardingReligion and Atheism

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 02:26 PM 6/27/03 +1000, Russell Chapman wrote:
Erik Reuter wrote:

Another interesting question. I can't think of any quick way to check
if your 240V bulbs are the same as our 120V ones. I assume yours look
like the picture of the 2.5V mini-bulbs in the link?
Even the packaging looks identical - they would all come out of the same 
factory in China somewhere... Maybe ours just burn brighter for a shorter 
time...
They're cheap enough now that people wouldn't care too much.

And we have LED light sets with all the colours except blue (which remain 
more expensive as components, so it's not surprising), hooked up to a 
simple control box which generates all manner of patterns along the length 
and between the colours. They are sold on the basis of the better 
electronics giving more patterns than the simple coloured bulb ones, plus 
the long-life of LEDs (to the point where they claim the LEDs never burn 
out, which is a bit misleading). They are enclosed inside a clear plastic 
tube for longevity.

Still way cheaper than the rice lights in the second link.


Obviously must not be a link to Wal-Mart, where they have had 
battery-operated sets of 10 (IIRC) for something like a buck or two . . .

(In fact, as it is 26 June, I expect the Christmas decorations to go up in 
the stores any day now . . . )



-- Ronn! :)

God bless America,
Land that I love!
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam…
God bless America!
My home, sweet home.
-- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)

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Re: Holiday Lights, was [Humor] RE: Question RegardingReligion and Atheism

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 10:36 PM 6/26/03 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote:

Actually, can you buy LED Christmas lights these days? Now that they
make GaN LEDs, you could have white, red, orange, yellow, green, and
blue lights all with LEDs.


Yes.  I have several different sets, most of which run on batteries.



-- Ronn! :)

God bless America,
Land that I love!
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam…
God bless America!
My home, sweet home.
-- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)

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RE: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 08:29 AM 6/27/03 -0500, Horn, John wrote:
> From: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Well... it depends on if the stones are standing upright or
> not, I guess. :)
Why?  Did they have too much to drink at the Solstice Party?


No, it's just that the Stones are so old and wasted that they can't stand 
upright any more without help . . .



-- Ronn! :)

God bless America,
Land that I love!
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam…
God bless America!
My home, sweet home.
-- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)

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Re: Comparision of ecconomic growth

[William T Goodall]

On Friday, June 27, 2003, at 03:21  am, Dan Minette wrote:
You and I have a different understanding of spiralling, then.  The
non-European ethnic makeup of GB is 2.8%.  They are optimistically
projecting enough immigration to make this about 6% or so in 20 years. 
And
its the shining star.

California already has white non-Hispanics as the biggest minority, 
not the
majority.  Texas will follow in about 2 years.  Yes, one can see a
significant minority of non-Europeans in London.  That's because that 
is a
haven for non-whites in GB.  Contrast that with my neck of the woods 
where
neither of the two mayoral candidates were European.


http://society.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4605024,00.html

" Two boroughs of Britain have more black and Asian people than white 
people for the first time ever, according to figures from the 2001 
census published today.

Data from the £200m survey showed that there were 4.5 million people 
from ethnic minorities in the UK in 2001 - 7.6% of the total 
population. The ethnic minority population of England rose from 6% in 
1991 to 9% in 2001.

Whites made up 39.4% of people living in the east London borough of 
Newham and 45.3% in Brent in the north-west of the capital."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1556901.stm

"Britain's ethnic minorities are growing at 15 times the rate of the 
white population, newly-published research shows.

Data collected by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) between 
1992-1994 and 1997-1999 showed that the number of people from minority 
ethnic groups grew by 15% compared to 1% for white people.



The figures also revealed that on average Britain's ethnic minorities 
have a much younger age profile.

The average age for the white population surveyed in the 1997-1999 
period was 37 or less but only 26 for ethnic minorities.

The report concluded: "Their young age structure and the consequential 
large number of births and relatively small number of deaths helps to 
explain the disproportionate contribution of minority ethnic groups to 
population growth in the 1990s."

Significantly the ethnic group with the youngest age profile were those 
who described themselves as "mixed" with 58% being aged 14 or under.

Overall their numbers increased by 49% in the periods surveyed - the 
second largest growth among black groups. "

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in
Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me 
-- you can't get fooled again."
 -George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 
17, 2002

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Re: Liberia's woes

[Andrew Crystall]

On 27 Jun 2003 at 13:02, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:

> At 06:47 PM 6/27/03 +0100, Andrew Crystall wrote:
> >On 27 Jun 2003 at 8:59, Chad Cooper wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/931163.asp
> > >
> > > "Angry crowds laid the bodies of murdered civilians, attacked
> > > while sheltering in the U.S. diplomatic complex, outside the U.S.
> > > Embassy in Liberia's capital, accusing the United States of
> > > failing to protect Monrovia's people."
> >
> >Didn't you read the "in the U.S. diplomatic complex". If they can't
> >defend the complex, then they need to seal it off, or to evacuate...
> 
> And if they *had* defended it, the headlines would read "U.S. Butchers
> Open Fire, Slaughter Peaceful Demonstrators".

Peaceful demonstrators with knives and guns..right.

And yes, I'd rather see a "bloodbath" - rioters killed - than 
innocent people dragged to their deaths.

Andy
Dawn Falcon

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Re: Liberia's woes

[Jean-Louis Couturier]

At 13:02 2003-06-27 -0500, Ronn! wrote:
On 27 Jun 2003 at 8:59, Chad Cooper wrote:

> http://www.msnbc.com/news/931163.asp
>
> "Angry crowds laid the bodies of murdered civilians, attacked while
> sheltering in the U.S. diplomatic complex, outside the U.S. Embassy in
> Liberia's capital, accusing the United States of failing to protect
> Monrovia's people."
And if they *had* defended it, the headlines would read "U.S. Butchers 
Open Fire, Slaughter Peaceful Demonstrators".

Can't Win Maru

-- Ronn! :)
What, you're sad because people don't like you?  If that's your
biggest problem, I'd say that things are going pretty well.  :-p
On a more serious note, I would like to see some action being
taken.  I'd like to see a UN Force get involved.  One has just
gone in Congo with orders to shoot and I want to see Canada get
involved.
Damn it!  People are getting killed and maimed.  Children are
being forced into soldiering and/or sexual slavery.  I need to
stop now.
Jean-Louis "Getting hawkish" Couturier 

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RE: Names, was Another ultrasound

[Horn, John]

> From: Ronn!Blankenship [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> OTOH, with different names, when someone calls and asks for 
> the father's 
> name when everyone who knows him knows he has moved, it's a 
> dead giveaway 
> it's a telemarketer, and you can either have some fun with 
> them or tell 
> them exactly what you think of telemarketers (which itself 
> may be your idea 
> of fun) . . .

Having your wife keep her name also works for that.  There's nothing like
being addressed as "Mr. Cleaver" to tip off that it is a sales call.

Of course, one time I went off in a case like that it turned out to be the
father of a friend of Anita's.  He, of course, had no idea that we had
different names.  And he was not amused.

 - jmh
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RE: Liberia's woes

[Chad Cooper]

>-Original Message-
>From: Jean-Louis Couturier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 12:59 PM
>To: Killer Bs Discussion
>Subject: Re: Liberia's woes
>
>
>At 13:02 2003-06-27 -0500, Ronn! wrote:
>>>On 27 Jun 2003 at 8:59, Chad Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>> > http://www.msnbc.com/news/931163.asp
>>> >
>>> > "Angry crowds laid the bodies of murdered civilians, 
>attacked while
>>> > sheltering in the U.S. diplomatic complex, outside the 
>U.S. Embassy in
>>> > Liberia's capital, accusing the United States of failing 
>to protect
>>> > Monrovia's people."
>>
>>And if they *had* defended it, the headlines would read "U.S. 
>Butchers 
>>Open Fire, Slaughter Peaceful Demonstrators".
>>
>>Can't Win Maru
>>
>>-- Ronn! :)
>
>What, you're sad because people don't like you?  If that's your
>biggest problem, I'd say that things are going pretty well.  :-p
>
>On a more serious note, I would like to see some action being
>taken.  I'd like to see a UN Force get involved.  One has just
>gone in Congo with orders to shoot and I want to see Canada get
>involved.

>From the Telegraph yesterday...

"With a US Navy amphibious assault ship, the USS Kearsarge, just off the
Liberian coast carrying 1,200 marines, Mr Bush has the option of ordering a
significant deployment to one of Africa's most chaotic countries."

Bush has asked both parties to come together and for the president of
Liberia to step down. Straw polls in Monrovia indicate nearly unanimous
support for US troops to restore peace in Monrovia.

We are being positioned to be that force.

>
>Damn it!  People are getting killed and maimed.  Children are
>being forced into soldiering and/or sexual slavery.  I need to
>stop now.

I feel stongly like you do, but how can guns solve this problem?
Any action from us or NATO or the UN will result in professional soldiers
being forced to decide whether or not to fire upon hostile forces, those
forces being young children, followed by rebel soldiers. Our soldiers, just
like in Somalia, will have to make split second decisions as to whether or
not to kill armed children. 

Of course, we could just step in a take Charles Taylor out of office fairly
easily, without fighting rebel soldiers. But what happens when we do so? We
now own Liberia, and would be expected to take care of it until the rebels
decide to lay down their arms. I don't see that happening.

We already have nearly all of our forces in Iraq right now. I think it is
time the allies to run with the ball here.

Nerd From Hell
>
>Jean-Louis "Getting hawkish" Couturier 
>
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RE: Liberia's woes

[Jean-Louis Couturier]

At 14:10 2003-06-27 -0700, Chad wrote:
Of course, we could just step in a take Charles Taylor out of office fairly
easily, without fighting rebel soldiers. But what happens when we do so? We
now own Liberia, and would be expected to take care of it until the rebels
decide to lay down their arms. I don't see that happening.
We already have nearly all of our forces in Iraq right now. I think it is
time the allies to run with the ball here.
I agree.  I'm Canadian.  I won't tell you what the US should be
doing.  I want Canadian troops out there, with other allies,
preferably wearing blue helmets.  I'd be perfectly willing to
put my money where my mouth is and pay taxes to make it happen.
Jean-Louis 

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Re: this might be an interesting article

[Reggie Bautista]

Debbi wrote:
Down South, we called them "Holy Rollers."* :)
Sects that seem to have more of this include
Pentecostal and Charismatic congregations.
There is a Charismatic movement within the Catholic church, of all places.  
A quick Google search shows that this movement is active in England and in 
Melbourne, Australia, as well as in the U.S.  I the archdiocese of Kansas 
City, at least as of a few years ago, there was a monthly Charismatic 
service that moved to a different Catholic church every month, where you 
could see and/or participate all the clapping, singing, prophesying, 
laying-on-of-hands, etc. that you would expect out of any Charismatic 
congregation.

Reggie Bautista

_
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

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Re: Liberia's woes

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 08:29 PM 6/27/03 +0100, Andrew Crystall wrote:
On 27 Jun 2003 at 13:02, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:

> At 06:47 PM 6/27/03 +0100, Andrew Crystall wrote:
> >On 27 Jun 2003 at 8:59, Chad Cooper wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/931163.asp
> > >
> > > "Angry crowds laid the bodies of murdered civilians, attacked
> > > while sheltering in the U.S. diplomatic complex, outside the U.S.
> > > Embassy in Liberia's capital, accusing the United States of
> > > failing to protect Monrovia's people."
> >
> >Didn't you read the "in the U.S. diplomatic complex". If they can't
> >defend the complex, then they need to seal it off, or to evacuate...
>
> And if they *had* defended it, the headlines would read "U.S. Butchers
> Open Fire, Slaughter Peaceful Demonstrators".
Peaceful demonstrators with knives and guns..right.

And yes, I'd rather see a "bloodbath" - rioters killed - than
innocent people dragged to their deaths.
Andy
Dawn Falcon


At 03:58 PM 6/27/03 -0400, Jean-Louis Couturier wrote:
At 13:02 2003-06-27 -0500, Ronn! wrote:
On 27 Jun 2003 at 8:59, Chad Cooper wrote:

> http://www.msnbc.com/news/931163.asp
>
> "Angry crowds laid the bodies of murdered civilians, attacked while
> sheltering in the U.S. diplomatic complex, outside the U.S. Embassy in
> Liberia's capital, accusing the United States of failing to protect
> Monrovia's people."
And if they *had* defended it, the headlines would read "U.S. Butchers 
Open Fire, Slaughter Peaceful Demonstrators".

Can't Win Maru

-- Ronn! :)
What, you're sad because people don't like you?  If that's your
biggest problem, I'd say that things are going pretty well.  :-p
On a more serious note, I would like to see some action being
taken.  I'd like to see a UN Force get involved.  One has just
gone in Congo with orders to shoot and I want to see Canada get
involved.
Damn it!  People are getting killed and maimed.  Children are
being forced into soldiering and/or sexual slavery.  I need to
stop now.
Jean-Louis "Getting hawkish" Couturier


My earlier comment had nothing to do with whether or not what happened is 
wrong or whether or not someone should do something about it, including the 
use of force.  The point of my comment was simply that if US troops had 
used force against the people who broke into the diplomatic complex and 
murdered civilians who had sought shelter there, the ***very same 
reporters*** who are now criticizing the US for not protecting the 
civilians seeking shelter would be condemning the US for using deadly force 
against what they would without question refer to as "peaceful 
demonstrators" who were "slaughtered" by the "US aggressors".



(Then there are people like Alberto who hate both the US and Liberia for 
their system of weights and measures . . . ;-)  )



-- Ronn! :)

God bless America,
Land that I love!
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam…
God bless America!
My home, sweet home.
-- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)




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-- Ronn! :)

God bless America,
Land that I love!
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam…
God bless America!
My home, sweet home.
-- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)

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RE: Names, was Another ultrasound

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 03:16 PM 6/27/03 -0500, Horn, John wrote:
> From: Ronn!Blankenship [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> OTOH, with different names, when someone calls and asks for
> the father's
> name when everyone who knows him knows he has moved, it's a
> dead giveaway
> it's a telemarketer, and you can either have some fun with
> them or tell
> them exactly what you think of telemarketers (which itself
> may be your idea
> of fun) . . .
Having your wife keep her name also works for that.  There's nothing like
being addressed as "Mr. Cleaver" to tip off that it is a sales call.


Of course, most telemarketers these days don't say "Mr. Cleaver" at 
all:  they say, "Hello, may I speak to Ward?"



Common Courtesy Is Uncommon Maru



-- Ronn! :)

God bless America,
Land that I love!
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam…
God bless America!
My home, sweet home.
-- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)

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No, I wasn't the defendant . . .

[Ronn!Blankenship]

COURT DOCKET 12659---CASE OF THE PREGNANT LADY

A lady about 8 months pregnant got on a bus. She noticed the man
opposite her was smiling at her. She immediately moved to another seat.
This time the smile turned into a grin, so she moved again. The man
seemed more amused. When on the fourth move, the man burst out laughing,
she complained to the driver and he had the man arrested.
The case came up in court. The judge asked the man (about 20 years old)
what he had to say for himself.
The man replied, "Well your Honor, it was like this: When the lady got
on the bus, I couldn't help but notice her condition. She sat under a
sign that said, "The Double Mint Twins are coming" and I grinned. Then
she moved and sat under a sign that said, "Logan's Liniment will reduce
the swelling", and I had to smile. Then she placed herself under a sign
that said, "William's Big Stick Did the Trick", and I could hardly
contain myself. BUT, your Honor, when she moved the fourth time and sat
under a sign that said, "Goodyear Rubber could have prevented this
Accident." I just lost it.
CASE DISMISSED



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Was there a name for Alvin's sister?

[Medievalbk]

I tried to do a quick read of the Jijo novels, highlighter in hand, to mark 
everything hoon.

I thought Alvin's sister had a name, but I didn't find it.

I did discover that our good Dr. Brin believes in leading the youth of Jijo 
away from the path of sobriety.

Alvin was drinking wine before he became an adult.

Gad! That'sthat's.almost European.

William Taylor

Should a drunken hoon never 
hold a lantern near their fully
inflated throat sac?
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Re: Was there a name for Alvin's sister?

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 10:20 PM 6/27/03 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I tried to do a quick read of the Jijo novels, highlighter in hand, to mark
everything hoon.
I thought Alvin's sister had a name, but I didn't find it.


I thought there were two:  Simone and Theodora.



I did discover that our good Dr. Brin


Whose real last name back in the early Sixties was Seville.



-- Ronn!  :)

Professional Smart-Aleck.  Do Not Attempt.

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SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression

[Ronn!Blankenship]

<>

Contact: Grant Madsen
(801) 422-9206
Religiousness associated with less depression, says BYU/U. of Miami study

PROVO, Utah  (June 17, 2003)-A new study by Brigham Young University 
researchers reveals that greater religiousness is associated with fewer 
symptoms of depression, with religiousness defined broadly as any attitude, 
belief or behavior involving spiritual or religious content.

"The findings suggest that religiousness may provide certain types of 
religious people with a buffer against depression," says Timothy Smith, a 
BYU associate professor of counseling psychology and lead researcher on the 
study. Joining Smith are Michael E. McCullough, an associate professor of 
psychology at the University of Miami, and Justin Pole, a BYU graduate student.

Published in the latest issue of the American Psychology Association's 
"Psychological Bulletin," the research is an analysis of 147 previous 
studies that examined religiousness and depression. The results were 
similar across gender, age or ethnicity and apply regardless of religious 
denomination. Religiousness was defined broadly as any attitude, belief, 
motivation, pursuit or behavior involving spiritual or religious content or 
processes.

Ken Pargament, a professor of psychology at Bowling Green State University 
and author of "The Psychology of Religion and Coping: Theory, Research, 
Practice," says the study adds to the growing understanding of the mental 
health benefits of religion.

"This is a sophisticated, up-to-date, balanced approach to the study of 
religion and one critical dimension of mental health," says Pargament. 
"Furthermore, it moves the field forward by identifying specific forms of 
religion that are tied to both increases and decreases to the risk of 
depression. These findings underscore what is common sense to most people 
-- religion contributes to health and well being. Now we are beginning to 
learn how and why."

Other findings revolved around the distinction between what the researchers 
called intrinsically and extrinsically motivated religiousness. Intrinsic 
motivation means practicing religion for religion's sake -- praying, 
meditating and serving because of a sincere belief that doing so is 
correct. Extrinsically motivated people practice religion for social 
reasons -- they see church as a chance to build non-faith-based social 
networks or think, "This is what religion can do for me."

The study found that those who practice religion based on extrinsic 
motivations or who engage in negative religious coping, like blaming God 
for difficulties, are associated with higher levels of symptoms of depression.

For those undergoing stressful life events, the researchers found that the 
buffer against depression is even stronger.

"One would think, 'The greater the stress, the greater the depression,'" 
says Smith. "But that's not necessarily the case for the intrinsically 
motivated religious person. Possible explanations for this include the idea 
that stress may prompt people to turn to religion, to become stronger in 
their faith in the face of trials. They are turning to God, pleading for 
help, seeking counsel from scriptures or pastors."

Some of the reasons that those who are religious for intrinsic reasons may 
enjoy a buffer against depressive symptoms and stress include the 
traditional use of less alcohol and drugs, belief in spiritual intervention 
and support and belief in an afterlife.

"Take the example of death. Some religions teach doctrines about an 
afterlife that may provide a coping mechanism that relieves stress," says 
Smith. "If people truly believe in those teachings and hold to them during 
times of stress, they can get through the ordeal with less trauma than the 
non-religious or externally motivated religious person."

Additionally, religion tends to teach principles of altruism, which 
research has shown to be a buffer against depression, says Smith. 
Self-focus, on the other hand, has been shown to be a factor that tends to 
increase feelings of depression.

The project was supported by grants from the John Templeton Foundation, the 
Campaign for Forgiveness Research, TP Industrials Inc., and the Religious 
Research Association.

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Re: Was there a name for Alvin's sister?

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 6/27/2003 7:32:01 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> >I thought Alvin's sister had a name, but I didn't find it.
>  
>  
>  
>  I thought there were two:  Simone and Theodora.
>  

F sharp.

And on another serious note, I don't think the Chipmunks would be a very 
popular cartoon to any race of aliens. All other races talk in funny voices. It'd 
be right at the level of Scooby Doo.

Tex Avery on the other hand
>  
>  >I did discover that our good Dr. Brin
>  
>  
>  
>  Whose real last name back in the early Sixties was Seville.

And always carried his own golf clubs..

The caddy-lack Seville.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  -- Ronn!  :)
>  
>  Professional Smart-Aleck.  Do Not Attempt.
>  

Don't quit your night job.

William Taylor
-
Putting the black
mascara around the
edges of the
telescope's eyepiece.
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brin: RFID tags

[The Fool]

http://securityfocus.com/columnists/169

RFID Chips Are Here

RFID chips are being embedded in everything from jeans to paper money,
and your privacy is at stake.
By Scott Granneman Jun 26 2003 09:15AM PT  
 
Bar codes are something most of us never think about. We go to the
grocery store to buy dog food, the checkout person runs our selection
over the scanner, there's an audible beep or boop, and then we're told
how much money we owe. Bar codes in that sense are an invisible
technology that we see all the time, but without thinking about what's in
front of our eyes. 

Bar codes have been with us so long, and they're so ubiquitous, that its
hard to remember that they're a relatively new technology that took a
while to catch on. The patent for bar codes was issued in 1952. It took
twenty years before a standard for bar codes was approved, but they still
didn't catch on. Ten years later, only 15,000 suppliers were using bar
codes. That changed in 1984. By 1987 - only three years later! - 75,000
suppliers were using bar codes. That's one heck of a growth curve. 

So what changed in 1984? Who, or what, caused the change? 

Wal-Mart. 

When Wal-Mart talks, suppliers listen. So when Wal-Mart said that it
wanted to use bar codes as a better way to manage inventory, bar codes
became de rigeur. If you didn't use bar codes, you lost Wal-Mart's
business. That's a death knell for most of their suppliers. 

The same thing is happening today. I'm here to tell you that the bar
code's days are numbered. There's a new technology in town, one that at
first blush might seem insignificant to security professionals, but it's
a technology that is going to be a big part of our future. And how do I
know this? Pin it on Wal-Mart again; they're the big push behind this new
technology. 
Right now, you can buy a hammer, a pair of jeans, or a razor blade with
anonymity. With RFID tags, that may be a thing of the past. 
So what is it? RFID tags. 

RFID 101 

Invented in 1969 and patented in 1973, but only now becoming commercially
and technologically viable, RFID tags are essentially microchips, the
tinier the better. Some are only 1/3 of a millimeter across. These chips
act as transponders (transmitters/responders), always listening for a
radio signal sent by transceivers, or RFID readers. When a transponder
receives a certain radio query, it responds by transmitting its unique ID
code, perhaps a 128-bit number, back to the transceiver. Most RFID tags
don't have batteries (How could they? They're 1/3 of a millimeter!).
Instead, they are powered by the radio signal that wakes them up and
requests an answer. 

http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/337/1/1/

Most of these "broadcasts" are designed to be read between a few inches
and several feet away, depending on the size of the antenna and the power
driving the RFID tags (some are in fact powered by batteries, but due to
the increased size and cost, they are not as common as the passive,
non-battery-powered models). However, it is possible to increase that
distance if you build a more sensitive RFID receiver. 

http://news.com.com/2100-1020-995744.html

RFID chips cost up to 50 cents, but prices are dropping. Once they get to
5 cents each, it will be cost-efficient to put RFID tags in almost
anything that costs more than a dollar. 

http://news.com.com/2010-1069-980325.html

Who's using RFID? 

RFID is already in use all around us. Ever chipped your pet dog or cat
with an ID tag? Or used an EZPass through a toll booth? Or paid for gas
using ExxonMobils' SpeedPass? Then you've used RFID. 

Some uses, especially those related to security, seem like a great idea.
For instance, Delta is testing RFID on some flights, tagging 40,000
customer bags in order to reduce baggage loss and make it easier to route
bags if customers change their flight plans. 

http://www.rfidjournal.com/index.php/article/articleview/468/1/1/

Three seaport operators - who account for 70% of the world's port
operations - agreed to deploy RFID tags to track the 17,000 containers
that arrive each day at US ports. Currently, less than 2% are inspected.
RFID tags will be used to track the containers and the employees handling
them. 

http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/26/1/1/

The United States Department of Defense is moving into RFID in order to
trace military supply shipments. During the first Gulf War, the DOD made
mistakes in its supply allocation. To streamline operations, the U.S.
military has placed RFID tags on 270,000 cargo containers and tracks
those shipments throughout 40 countries. 

http://news.com.com/2100-1017-984391.html

On a smaller level, but one that will instantly resonate with security
pros, Star City Casino in Sydney, Australia placed RFID tags in 80,000
employee uniforms in order to put a stop to theft. The same idea would
work well in corporate PCs, networking equipment, and handhelds. 

http://www.alientechnology.com/news/The_Internet_of_Things.htm

In all of these cases, R