Re: Sore losers
On Aug 27, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: nationalism is an aberration that is found in many countries, and to be abhorred. it is especially repugnant in nations where their citizens actually believe they are better than other nations (like some french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens, etc.). I think that nationalism is not an aberration at all. I would be willing to guess that it is a larger form of xenophobia, which I would be further willing to guess conferred evolutionary advantages: kill off the other guys and your genes live on. The other guys can be other guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going to be the one whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell with those guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth. We even had a racist dog when I was a kid. He was raised by my family of white people in a neighborhood of mostly white people, so when black kids from the projects walked by, who were different, he went nuts. Then again, dogs are remarkable at picking up subtle clues in the behavior of their human companions, and my dad was quite a racist. The dog may have known that black people were bad because he saw his master tense up when they were around. Different is Dangerous Maru Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brazilian volleyball girls
On Aug 27, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote: Jon Louis Mann wrote: I bow down to the Chinese volleyball girls, Err... They were blasted 3 x 0 by the Brazilian volleyball girls :-P missed that, congrats to brazil!~) It was the first time the girls won the gold medal. They didn't even win it at the Pan american games, here in Rio - they lost to the archnemesis Cuba team. Speaking of Cuba and sore losers, did anybody see idiot Tae Kwon Do sore-loser Ángel Matos kick the referee in the face after being disqualified for taking too much injury time? He earned himself -- and his unapologetic coach -- lifetime bans from the sport. I understand Matos' frustration at getting a DQ while he was winning. The injury he sustained is a common one in lower-level sparring: two kicks, or a kick and a block, collide painfully. But the World TKD Federation (WTF -- love the acronym) rules in effect at the Olympics only allow a minute of injury rest time, and Matos exceeded it. Nonetheless, every martial artist, learns that the sport is not about being Chuck Norris, but about respect, discipline and self-control. Dave In Soviet Cuba, kick judges you! Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Welcome to Hyperinflation!
I was just checking the evolution of PPI (PPI and CPI measure inflation in the USA), and noticed that _this year_ the accumulated inflation is about 10% (!!!) Welcome to Hyperinflation. If you want any hints on how to survive and prosper under hyperinflation, just ask me. Brazil had it for decades. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Welcome to Hyperinflation!
Zimbabwe inflation rate is around 810% **per month** ! c -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alberto Monteiro Sent: 29 August 2008 14:31 PM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Welcome to Hyperinflation! I was just checking the evolution of PPI (PPI and CPI measure inflation in the USA), and noticed that _this year_ the accumulated inflation is about 10% (!!!) Welcome to Hyperinflation. If you want any hints on how to survive and prosper under hyperinflation, just ask me. Brazil had it for decades. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Sore losers
Nationalism is just another step in the ladder of Me and Not-Me, Family and Not-Family, Tribe and Not-Tribe.And what is the next step after nationalism? Judging from history and what I see around me, something very similar to Citizen and Not-Citizen. A Citizen being defined as anyone of any national or racial origin or original condition who is willing to learn the language, obey the laws, and behave according to the values of the - let's be truthful here - Empire.http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: Sore losers Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:28:15 -0700 On Aug 27, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: nationalism is an aberration that is found in many countries, and tobe abhorred. it is especially repugnant in nations where theircitizens actually believe they are better than other nations (likesome french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens, etc.). I think that nationalism is not an aberration at all. I would be willing to guess that it is a larger form of xenophobia, which I would be further willing to guess conferred evolutionary advantages: kill off the other guys and your genes live on. The other guys can be other guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going to be the one whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell with those guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth. We even had a racist dog when I was a kid. He was raised by my family of white people in a neighborhood of mostly white people, so when black kids from the projects walked by, who were different, he went nuts. Then again, dogs are remarkable at picking up subtle clues in the behavior of their human companions, and my dad was quite a racist. The dog may have known that black people were bad because he saw his master tense up when they were around. Different is Dangerous Maru Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sore losers
Jon Louis Mann wrote: nationalism is an aberration that is found in many countries, and to be abhorred. it is especially repugnant in nations where their citizens actually believe they are better than other nations Nationalism is not an aberrantion -- it is one of the human constants. Almost every tribal group ever examined had a word for themselves that basically meant People or true people and some equivalent to the Greek workd barbarian which meant not us. If you think about it in evolutionary terms, it makes perfect sense. 99% of our evolutionary history was spent in small, isloated bands, as hunter-gatherers, in a world where humans were not the dominant species. Danger was everywhere. Survival of the individual depended on suvirival of the group. Anything from outside the groups was suspect, dangerous, to be feared. Chimpanzees show a lot of the same behaviors, even patrolling the boundaries of their terriortories, attacking the members of other groups, and, as Jane Goodall pointed out, having all out wars between groups. So when you point to one country, or one group, or one nationality, or whatever, and say They're the nationalistic ones, they're the evil ones , they're the aberration, you're really just engaging in the same behavior you calim to be derriding: Us-and-them. Even more importantly, you are avoiding responsibility for something that is really a common trait we all share by projecting it on them. We all have these tendencies, and the only answer to them is reason, not emotion and name calling and the generation of more fear and hate. As Dr. Brin points out, the kinds of open, responsive systems that we have developed in the past few centuries, are the only antidote we know to the universal condition of tyrrany, exploitation, war and tribalism. And we have to use our reason to set up these systems despire the fact that it goes against millions of years of evolutionary history (just like I have to use my reason not to gorge myself on high-fat foods at every possibility, even though my genes tell me it has survivial value -- for my distant ancestors it did, and the ones who stocked up on fat and calories when they could surivived and passed the craving on to me -- it today's world, though, it will kill me) ... Judging from some of the recent discussion on this list, maybe we should all go back and read some of the stuff Dr. Brin has written about the addictive qualities of self-righteous indignation? Olin - Original Message - From: Pat Mathewsmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:21 AM Subject: RE: Sore losers Nationalism is just another step in the ladder of Me and Not-Me, Family and Not-Family, Tribe and Not-Tribe.And what is the next step after nationalism? Judging from history and what I see around me, something very similar to Citizen and Not-Citizen. A Citizen being defined as anyone of any national or racial origin or original condition who is willing to learn the language, obey the laws, and behave according to the values of the - let's be truthful here - Empire.http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: brin-l@mccmedia.commailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: Sore losers Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:28:15 -0700 On Aug 27, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: nationalism is an aberration that is found in many countries, and tobe abhorred. it is especially repugnant in nations where their citizens actually believe they are better than other nations (likesome french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens, etc.). I think that nationalism is not an aberration at all. I would be willing to guess that it is a larger form of xenophobia, which I would be further willing to guess conferred evolutionary advantages: kill off the other guys and your genes live on. The other guys can be other guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going to be the one whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell with those guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth. We e ven had a racist dog when I was a kid. He was raised by my family of white people in a neighborhood of mostly white people, so when black kids from the projects walked by, who were different, he went nuts. Then again, dogs are remarkable at picking up subtle clues in the behavior of their human companions, and my dad was quite a racist. The dog may have known that black people were bad because he saw his master tense up when they were around. Different is Dangerous Maru Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-lhttp://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___
Dogs (was: Sore Losers)
We even had a racist dog when I was a kid. He was raised by my family of white people in a neighborhood of mostly white people, so when black kids from the projects walked by, who were different, he went nuts. Then again, dogs are remarkable at picking up subtle clues in the behavior of their human companions, and my dad was quite a racist. The dog may have known that black people were bad because he saw his master tense up when they were around. I have a dog who was basically feral the first year of her life, living on the streets, and even though she's quite civilized now, she hates homeless people. This dog who loves all human beings, used to growl and get tense whenever she saw someone who was obvioulsy homeless (or looked like they were). She's gotten better now, but she still is obviously uncomfortable with them. Most of the homeless people with dogs that I know treat them very well, often taking better care of the dog than of themselves, but I can only guess what experiences Lulubelle (our dog) had to make her so leary of homeless people Olin - Original Message - From: Dave Landmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:28 PM Subject: Re: Sore losers On Aug 27, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: nationalism is an aberration that is found in many countries, and to be abhorred. it is especially repugnant in nations where their citizens actually believe they are better than other nations (like some french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens, etc.). I think that nationalism is not an aberration at all. I would be willing to guess that it is a larger form of xenophobia, which I would be further willing to guess conferred evolutionary advantages: kill off the other guys and your genes live on. The other guys can be other guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going to be the one whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell with those guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth. We even had a racist dog when I was a kid. He was raised by my family of white people in a neighborhood of mostly white people, so when black kids from the projects walked by, who were different, he went nuts. Then again, dogs are remarkable at picking up subtle clues in the behavior of their human companions, and my dad was quite a racist. The dog may have known that black people were bad because he saw his master tense up when they were around. Different is Dangerous Maru Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-lhttp://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Enough!
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did anyone catch The Speech? I was inspired and I think against all odds that he has a chance. What a watershed moment in the history of humanity that would be. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l I saw the speech. I especially liked the riff on Ownership Society...You're on your own I certainly think that he has a chance considering the dissatisfaction in the country today and the fact that he beat (what was at the start of the Dem primary campaign) the powerful juggernaut that was the Clinton machine. now i *have* seen everything! john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Welcome to Hyperinflation!
At 07:30 AM Friday 8/29/2008, Alberto Monteiro wrote: I was just checking the evolution of PPI (PPI and CPI measure inflation in the USA), and noticed that _this year_ the accumulated inflation is about 10% (!!!) Welcome to Hyperinflation. If you want any hints on how to survive and prosper under hyperinflation, just ask me. Or just remember the Carter administration. He Said During The Campaign That Four Percent Inflation Was Unacceptable So When He Got Into Office He Made It Twenty-Plus Percent Maru . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Welcome to Hyperinflation!
Ronn! wrote: Or just remember the Carter administration. He Said During The Campaign That Four Percent Inflation Was Unacceptable So When He Got Into Office He Made It Twenty-Plus Percent Maru Cite? Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Enough!
On Aug 29, 2008, at 7:34 AM, John Garcia wrote: On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did anyone catch The Speech? I was inspired and I think against all odds that he has a chance. What a watershed moment in the history of humanity that would be. I saw the speech. I especially liked the riff on Ownership Society...You're on your own I just finished reading Whose Freedom? by George Lakoff and was amazed to see such a clear example of reframing on display. All is not lost. The progressive movement in this country has about 30-40 years of catching up to do with the conservative movement on delivering its framing to the point that it becomes common sense: literally hard-coded into people's brains. The Speech was a start. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Welcome to Hyperinflation!
On Aug 29, 2008, at 9:29 AM, Doug Pensinger wrote: Ronn! wrote: Or just remember the Carter administration. He Said During The Campaign That Four Percent Inflation Was Unacceptable So When He Got Into Office He Made It Twenty-Plus Percent Maru Cite? Might Ronn! be conflating twenty-plus percent _interest_ rates (which were definitely in effect during the Carter administration) with such inflation? The phrase double-digit is commonly mentioned in articles about the Carter years and inflation, but that could be as low as 10% and as high as 99%. I'm pretty sure it never got into the 20s for any sustained period. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Welcome to Hyperinflation!
On Aug 29, 2008, at 10:14 AM, Dave Land wrote: On Aug 29, 2008, at 9:29 AM, Doug Pensinger wrote: Ronn! wrote: Or just remember the Carter administration. He Said During The Campaign That Four Percent Inflation Was Unacceptable So When He Got Into Office He Made It Twenty-Plus Percent Maru Cite? Might Ronn! be conflating twenty-plus percent _interest_ rates (which were definitely in effect during the Carter administration) with such inflation? The phrase double-digit is commonly mentioned in articles about the Carter years and inflation, but that could be as low as 10% and as high as 99%. I'm pretty sure it never got into the 20s for any sustained period. I am having a hard time finding good numbers, but one reference on the web (http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/H/1990/ch8_p21.htm) put it above 20% in 1980. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Welcome to Hyperinflation!
On 29 Aug 2008, at 18:34, Dave Land wrote: I am having a hard time finding good numbers, but one reference on the web (http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/H/1990/ch8_p21.htm) put it above 20% in 1980. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-carterreagan.htm Second Hand Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Secular belief vs Science
Folks, We talk a lot -- some might say too much -- about the pernicious effects of blind religious belief, especially as it prevents rational thought about science. You might say that Science is sacred around here. But secular belief can be just as blinding just as stupid dangerous. Consider the caller Charlane on NPR's Science Friday just now. The topic was the (now thoroughly-debunked) concerns about links between vaccines autusm and other vaccine scares. She was adamant about not having her baby immunized on the CDC-recommended schedule because, among other things, she didn't think that it was safe to give a baby six immunological agents at once. Nothing the guest scientist said could convince her. She demanded to know how many tests had been conducted specifically testing the interactions of multiple vaccines at once. The guest thought about it replied, In the high hundreds to low thousands. Before he even finished his answer, she talked over him, saying, I don't believe it. My mind boggled. Why ask the damn question, then? Dave Frames trump facts Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Secular belief vs Science
On 29 Aug 2008, at 20:18, David Land wrote: My mind boggled. Why ask the damn question, then? She had faith. Unreasoning Belief Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Welcome to Hyperinflation!
I am having a hard time finding good numbers, but one reference on the web (http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/H/1990/ch8_p21.htm) put it above 20% in 1980. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-carterreagan.htm The US Bureau of Labour Statistics places CPI inflation at 13.5% in 1980. ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/cpi/cpiai.txt Williams' link uses this number as well as states the following, In 1980, the misery index -- unemployment plus inflation -- crested 20 percent for the first time since World War II. Perhaps some media sources have been confusing these numbers. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Secular belief vs Science
Consider the caller Charlane on NPR's Science Friday just now. The topic was the (now thoroughly-debunked) concerns about links between vaccines autusm and other vaccine scares. She was adamant about not having her baby immunized on the CDC-recommended schedule because, among other things, she didn't think that it was safe to give a baby six immunological agents at once. Nothing the guest scientist said could convince her. She demanded to know how many tests had been conducted specifically testing the interactions of multiple vaccines at once. The guest thought about it replied, In the high hundreds to low thousands. Before he even finished his answer, she talked over him, saying, I don't believe it. My mind boggled. Why ask the damn question, then? Dave when it was time for my son to be immunized several years ago, i opted to wait till he was older, and then space them out; figuring better to be safe than sorry. i suppose that is why some people choose to believe in gawd. jon jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Sore Losers
nationalism is an aberration that is found in many countries, and to be abhorred. it is especially repugnant in nations where their citizens actually believe they are better than other nations (like some french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens, etc.). jon I think that nationalism is not an aberration at all. I would be willing to guess that it is a larger form of xenophobia, which I would be further willing to guess conferred evolutionary advantages: kill off the other guys and your genes live on. The other guys can be other guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going to be the one whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell with those guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth. Dave or as Dr. Brin would say, The Dogma of the Other... Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Sore Losers
nationalism is an aberration that is found in many countries, and to be abhorred. it is especially repugnant in nations where their citizens actually believe they are better than other nations (like some french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens, etc.). jon I think that nationalism is not an aberration at all. I would be willing to guess that it is a larger form of xenophobia, which I would be further willing to guess conferred evolutionary advantages: kill off the other guys and your genes live on. The other guys can be other guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going to be the one whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell with those guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth. Dave or as Dr. Brin would say, The Dogma of the Other... Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Sore Losers
nationalism is an aberration that is found in many countries, and to be abhorred. it is especially repugnant in nations where their citizens actually believe they are better than other nations (like some french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens, etc.). jon I think that nationalism is not an aberration at all. I would be willing to guess that it is a larger form of xenophobia, which I would be further willing to guess conferred evolutionary advantages: kill off the other guys and your genes live on. The other guys can be other guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going to be the one whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell with those guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth. Dave or as Dr. Brin would say, The Dogma of the Other... Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Sore losers
Jon Louis Mann wrote: nationalism is an aberration found in many countries, and to be abhorred. it is especially repugnant in nations where their citizens actually believe they are better than other nations... Nationalism is not an aberration -- it is one of the human constants. Almost every tribal group ever examined had a word for themselves that basically meant People or true people and some equivalent to the Greek word barbarian which meant not us. If you think about it in evolutionary terms, it makes perfect sense. 99% of our evolutionary history was spent in small, isloated bands, as hunter-gatherers, in a world where humans were not the dominant species. Danger was everywhere. Survival of the individual depended on suvirival of the group. Anything from outside the groups was suspect, dangerous, to be feared. Chimpanzees show a lot of the same behaviors, even patrolling the boundaries of their terriortories, attacking the members of other groups, and, as Jane Goodall pointed out, having all out wars between groups. So when you point to one country, or one group, or one nationality, or whatever, and say They're the nationalistic ones, they're the evil ones, they're the aberration, you're really just engaging in the same behavior you claim to be derriding: Us-and-them. Even more importantly, you are avoiding responsibility for something that is a common trait we all share by projecting it on them. We all have these tendencies, and the only answer to them is reason, not emotion, name calling and the generation of more fear and hate. As Dr. Brin points out, the kinds of open, responsive systems that we have developed in the past few centuries, are the only antidote we know to the universal condition of tyrrany, exploitation, war and tribalism. And we have to use our reason to set up these systems despire the fact that it goes against millions of years of evolutionary history (just like I have to use my reason not to gorge myself on high-fat foods at every possibility, even though my genes tell me it has survivial value -- for my distant ancestors it did, and the ones who stocked up on fat and calories when they could surivived and passed the craving on to me -- it today's world, though, it will kill me) ... Judging from some of the recent discussion on this list, maybe we should all go back and read some of the stuff Dr. Brin has written about the addictive qualities of self-righteous indignation? Olin aren't you being self righteous about not being self righteous, olin? if intolerance of intolerance is being self righteous, then i pleasd guilty, too. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Secular belief vs Science
On 29 Aug 2008, at 21:04, Jon Louis Mann wrote: when it was time for my son to be immunized several years ago, i opted to wait till he was older, and then space them out; figuring better to be safe than sorry. i suppose that is why some people choose to believe in gawd. jon So it's the immunisation version of Pascal's Wager? Betting Slip Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. - Ken Olsen, President of DEC, 1984. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sore losers
aren't you being self righteous about not being self righteous, olin? if intolerance of intolerance is being self righteous, then i pleasd guilty, too. jon of course I'm being self-righteous -- notice that I was very careful to use inclusive language throughout what I wrote, even noting that we should all go back and read Dr. Brin's article. I'm one of the worst -- only in the last half-decade or so of my life have I learned to (usually) avoid taking a verbal sledgehammer to anyone I disagree with. Socrates said that if he was the wiesest man in Athens, it was only because he knew that he didn't know anything. None of us is going to eliminate these tendencies (short of genetic modification). I'd bet that even the Dalia Llama (if you don't like Buddhists please insert the religious or secular saint of your choice) would admit that he hasn't elmintated those traits. Its like a computer that goes back to its default settings every time you turn it off. The best we can do is try to always be aware of it and allow for it -- and we won't even succeed at that a lot of the time, which is why feedback, mutual criticism and transpa rency are so important. And we have to set these systems up -- both in the public sector and our own lives -- during the times when we're relatively sane, because once we're into our self-righteousness and our indignation and all that other stuff, we're not going to want to be corrected. Just look around the world today, at all the groups pointing weapons (physical and intellectual) at each other, and all the damage we're doing to the world because we're sure that we're right and we're most imporant -- and its not just one country or one political party, although I'll admit some are worse than others. I believe it's the single most imporatant issue we face. We either deal with it -- we either adapt to the new conditions our species faces -- or we die. Olin - Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mannmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 1:21 PM Subject: Sore losers Jon Louis Mann wrote: nationalism is an aberration found in many countries, and to be abhorred. it is especially repugnant in nations where their citizens actually believe they are better than other nations... Nationalism is not an aberration -- it is one of the human constants. Almost every tribal group ever examined had a word for themselves that basically meant People or true people and some equivalent to the Greek word barbarian which meant not us. If you think about it in evolutionary terms, it makes perfect sense. 99% of our evolutionary history was spent in small, isloated bands, as hunter-gatherers, in a world where humans were not the dominant species. Danger was everywhere. Survival of the individual depended on suvirival of the group. Anything from outside the groups was suspect, dangerous, to be feared. Chimpanzees show a lot of the same behaviors, even patrolling the boundaries of their terriortories, attacking the members of other groups, and, as Jane Goodall pointed out, having all out wars between groups. So when you point to one country, or one group, or one nationality, or whatever, and say They're the nationalistic ones, they're the evil ones, they're the aberration, you're really just engaging in the same behavior you claim to be derriding: Us-and-them. Even more importantly, you are avoiding responsibility for something that is a common trait we all share by projecting it on them. We all have these tendencies, and the only answer to them is reason, not emotion, name calling and the generation of more fear and hate. As Dr. Brin points out, the kinds of open, responsive systems that we have developed in the past few centuries, are the only antidote we know to the universal condition of tyrrany, exploitation, war and tribalism. And we have to use our reason to set up these systems despire the fact that it goes against millions of years of evolutionary history (just like I have to use my reason not to gorge myself on high-fat foods at every possibility, even though my genes tell me it has survivial value -- for my distant ancestors it did, and the ones who stocked up on fat and calories when they could surivived and passed the craving on to me -- it today's world, though, it will kill me) ... Judging from some of the recent discussion on this list, maybe we should all go back and read some of the stuff Dr. Brin has written about the addictive qualities of self-righteous indignation? Olin aren't you being self righteous about not being self righteous, olin? if intolerance of intolerance is being self righteous, then i pleasd guilty, too. jon
Sore losers
of course I'm being self-righteous -- notice that I was very careful to use inclusive language throughout what I wrote, even noting that we should all go back and read Dr. Brin's article. I'm one of the worst -- only in the last half-decade or so of my life have I learned to (usually) avoid taking a verbal sledgehammer to anyone I disagree with. Socrates said that if he was the wiesest man in Athens, it was only because he knew that he didn't know anything. None of us is going to eliminate these tendencies (short of genetic modification). I'd bet that even the Dalia Llama (if you don't like Buddhists please insert the religious or secular saint of your choice) would admit that he hasn't elmintated those traits. Its like a computer that goes back to its default settings every time you turn it off. The best we can do is try to always be aware of it and allow for it -- and we won't even succeed at that a lot of the time, which is why feedback, mutual criticism and transpa rency are so important. And we have to set these systems up -- both in the public sector and our own lives -- during the times when we're relatively sane, because once we're into our self-righteousness and our indignation and all that other stuff, we're not going to want to be corrected. Just look around the world today, at all the groups pointing weapons (physical and intellectual) at each other, and all the damage we're doing to the world because we're sure that we're right and we're most imporant -- and its not just one country or one political party, although I'll admit some are worse than others. I believe it's the single most imporatant issue we face. We either deal with it -- we either adapt to the new conditions our species faces -- or we die. Olin I don't believe i was being sanctimonious, olin, by saying that nationalism is abhorrent. i was simply stating my opinion. i will maintain that the didactic, righteous, dogmatists tend to come from the emotional right wing religious fanatics (many of whom believe in creationism and reject global warming) rather than the more rational leftist secular progressive, pragmatists. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Secular belief vs Science
when it was time for my son to be immunized several years ago, i opted to wait till he was older, and then space them out; figuring better to be safe than sorry. i suppose that is why some people choose to believe in gawd. jon So it's the immunization version of Pascal's Wager? Betting Slip Maru William T Goodall Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher Blaise Pascal that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because so living has potentially everything to gain, and certainly nothing to lose. I'm placing my bet on cryonics... I'm pretty sure my son, at 5 1/2, is not autistic, and no harm was done by delaying his shots... Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Welcome to Hyperinflation!
At 11:29 AM Friday 8/29/2008, Doug Pensinger wrote: Ronn! wrote: Or just remember the Carter administration. He Said During The Campaign That Four Percent Inflation Was Unacceptable So When He Got Into Office He Made It Twenty-Plus Percent Maru Cite? Doug Being there. . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Welcome to Hyperinflation!
Ronn! wrote: Being there. A faulty memory is a poor cite. Not only wasn't inflation anywhere near 20% during the Carter administration, it wasn't anywhere near 4% immediately prior to his election. Here's another cite to go with the ones already posted: http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/HistoricalInflation.aspx?dsInflation_currentPage=3 And here's a quote from William's reference: Carter cannot be blamed for the double-digit inflation that peaked on his watch, because inflation started growing in 1965 and snowballed for the next 15 years. To battle inflation, Carter appointed Paul Volcker as Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, who defeated it by putting the nation through an intentional recession. Once the threat of inflation abated in late 1982, Volcker cut interest rates and flooded the economy with money, fueling an expansion that lasted seven years. Neither Carter nor Reagan had much to do with the economic events that occurred during their terms. Doug The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. --Stephen Hawking ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Secular belief vs Science
On 30/08/2008, at 8:05 AM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher Blaise Pascal that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because so living has potentially everything to gain, and certainly nothing to lose. I'm placing my bet on cryonics... I'm pretty sure my son, at 5 1/2, is not autistic, and no harm was done by delaying his shots... The reason to give shots early is that's when the immune system is doing its major formational work, learning as much as it can as fast as it can. Vaccination is more likely to be effective for different diseases at different times. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin
Considering the fact that McCain just announced his VP running mate today, it's interesting that there are domain names associating Sarah Palin with Vice President registered back in June 2008. The domain name VicePresidentSarahPalin.com was registered on June 14, 2008. Nothing illegal or underhanded about that, just interesting that people knew or suspected more than two months ago. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Welcome to Hyperinflation!
I'm pretty sure it never got into the 20s for any sustained period. I am having a hard time finding good numbers, but one reference on the web (http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/H/1990/ch8_p21.htm) put it above 20% in 1980. Dave Well, IIRC, the primary source for this is the Bureau of Labor Statistics. If not the primary, they are a darn good mirror source. At http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm they have a calculator, which is an easy way to calculate the total inflation over a period. They also have monthly tables for people really into it. From inflation was 75-76 5.8% 76-77 6.5% 77-78 7.6% 78-79 11.4% 79-80 13.5% 80-81 10.0% Also of note, under the 4 years of Carter, there were about twice as many jobs created (10.3 million or a 12.8% increase), than have been created under Bush in 7+ years (5.1 million or a 3.9% increase). And, with employment expected to continue to fall through next January, I expect this number to drop below 5 million. (anyone want to bet against me?) Given the fact that housing prices are tumbling and unemployment is rising, we may have a bit of stagflation, but I don't think that wages will hold up their end of the wage-price spiral. So, I don't expect much more than 5%-6% inflation before things settle down. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin
On 30 Aug 2008, at 02:36, Gary Nunn wrote: Considering the fact that McCain just announced his VP running mate today, it's interesting that there are domain names associating Sarah Palin with Vice President registered back in June 2008. The domain name VicePresidentSarahPalin.com was registered on June 14, 2008. Nothing illegal or underhanded about that, just interesting that people knew or suspected more than two months ago. She's a crazy person. With four kids already, and at an age when the risk of fetal abnormalities is massively escalated, she gets pregnant again and when the tests show it has Down Syndrome she doesn't abort. She's wealthy enough that the coping will be done by servants so her moral position won't inconvenience her political career (and boost it with other nutters) but it's a terrible, selfish, morally bankrupt example to set. Sick Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin
William T Goodall wrote: Sarah Palin ... Vice President ... She's a crazy person. With four kids already, and at an age when the risk of fetal abnormalities is massively escalated, she gets pregnant again and when the tests show it has Down Syndrome she doesn't abort. She's wealthy enough that the coping will be done by servants so her moral position won't inconvenience her political career (and boost it with other nutters) but it's a terrible, selfish, morally bankrupt example to set. William-- I truly admire the subtlety with which you troll. For those of us without moral absolutes that decide the issue, it is difficult to decide how disabled a child has to be so that it is better to kill it at a very young age and invest the resources elsewhere. (To use honest terminology.) Thank you for bringing this dilemma into focus. ---David Dying machines made of meat, Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sore losers
I don't believe i was being sanctimonious, olin, by saying that nationalism is abhorrent. i was simply stating my opinion. i will maintain that the didactic, righteous, dogmatists tend to come from the emotional right wing religious fanatics (many of whom believe in creationism and reject global warming) rather than the more rational leftist secular progressive, pragmatists. jon at the presnet moment, I agree with you. But the history of the left has more than its share of dogmatism, irrationality, and craziness. Try suggesting on most college campus that things like, say, the relative aptitudes of men and women in different fields in an empiracal question and should be studied scientifically. You will be shouted down by leftist, progressive feminists. The response will be just as emotional and non-rational. There's a strong ant-sciene bias in modern American liberalism, resistance to ideas about the inheritance of temerpment or personality, the primacy of biology over culture, etc. etc. The right has just been more blantant, more vocal and more ludicrous in their attacks on science, but they don't have a monopoly on it. Olin - Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mannmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: Sore losers of course I'm being self-righteous -- notice that I was very careful to use inclusive language throughout what I wrote, even noting that we should all go back and read Dr. Brin's article. I'm one of the worst -- only in the last half-decade or so of my life have I learned to (usually) avoid taking a verbal sledgehammer to anyone I disagree with. Socrates said that if he was the wiesest man in Athens, it was only because he knew that he didn't know anything. None of us is going to eliminate these tendencies (short of genetic modification). I'd bet that even the Dalia Llama (if you don't like Buddhists please insert the religious or secular saint of your choice) would admit that he hasn't elmintated those traits. Its like a computer that goes back to its default settings every time you turn it off. The best we can do is try to always be aware of it and allow for it -- and we won't even succeed at that a lot of the time, which is why feedback, mutual criticism and transpa rency are so important. And we have to set these systems up -- both in the public sector and our own lives -- during the times when we're relatively sane, because once we're into our self-righteousness and our indignation and all that other stuff, we're not going to want to be corrected. Just look around the world today, at all the groups pointing weapons (physical and intellectual) at each other, and all the damage we're doing to the world because we're sure that we're right and we're most imporant -- and its not just one country or one political party, although I'll admit some are worse than others. I believe it's the single most imporatant issue we face. We either deal with it -- we either adapt to the new conditions our species faces -- or we die. Olin I don't believe i was being sanctimonious, olin, by saying that nationalism is abhorrent. i was simply stating my opinion. i will maintain that the didactic, righteous, dogmatists tend to come from the emotional right wing religious fanatics (many of whom believe in creationism and reject global warming) rather than the more rational leftist secular progressive, pragmatists. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-lhttp://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
