Re: Silly mice (was Re: Open question to the list)
At 03:23 PM 12/6/02 -0600, Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: My mouse was squeaking yesterday so I tried to clean it. But I had to stop because it scratched me bit me peed on me. Obviously you are not doing it right, as I can clean my cats with minimal scratching and no biting or peeing. A fair amount of sulking afterwards, though . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Silly mice (was Re: Open question to the list)
At 03:56 PM 12/6/02 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Well, on the way to Sammy's checkup with the pediatrician, Dan told me about a system where they put a GPS locator into a cattle shock collar. Did either of you bring up the obvious suggestion? I Told You Kids Not To Go Outside Our Back Yard Maru --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Silly mice (was Re: Open question to the list)
At 05:08 PM 12/6/02 -0500, William Taylor wrote: In a message dated 12/6/02 2:24:38 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I want to hear silly mouse-related things! :-) My mouse was squeaking yesterday so I tried to clean it. But I had to stop because it scratched me bit me peed on me. How to clean your mouse balls: Nope, I refuse to go there. --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
At 22:30 2002-12-05 -0800, Debbi wrote: Adam Lipscomb wrote: How should we handle administrative authority on the list? We've got a lot of options, some less palatable than others. It's obvious that, in light of both recent events ond other events in the past, that there is occasionally a need to move to actively work to rein in a listmember that is acting inappropriately. I'm wondering if we need to set up a three or five person committee (perhaps with rotating membership) to deal with stuff like this. Either elected or volunteer membership would do... A rotating committee of active list members could act as a panel of judges/arbitrators in 'non-immediate danger' situations; but a listmember who was 'dangerous' - as in hacking into a security system - could legitimately be 'banned' immediately by the listowners, with arbitration/discussion to follow, setting conditions of moderation or sanctions. frowns at this thread-over to Iraq Pros: Such a system would take some of the responsibilities from the listowners, and give listmembers a way to request intervention if they felt they were being treated unfairly (but it just might *prevent* such a situation in the first place). If it doesn't meet with the community's approval during a trial period, dissolve it. Cons: ~This would require the willing participation of all active members. ~Panels (3- or 5-person) would have to be balanced as much as possible WRT positions on free expression, what constitutes harrassment or personal attacks, etc. ~The list would become at least partially 'moderated' - or perhaps 'more an adult.' I'm sure there are many more I haven't thought of. This also has the merit of being a proactive way of dealing with problems. It might help us solve problems before they inflate. Would I be willing to be on such a panel? Only if it was for a specified length of time (3 months? 6? shudder), because I *would not* enjoy dealing with such conflicts, but I can't really propose something if I'm not willing to be a part of, can I? I'd also volunteer. I'd rather find a solution than sit on the sidelines while things heat up. I don't like having to discuss this at all, but it isn't going to go away. :( Debbi Indeed. Jean-Louis ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
From: Jean-Louis Couturier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Open question to the list Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 14:31:29 -0500 At 22:30 2002-12-05 -0800, Debbi wrote: Adam Lipscomb wrote: How should we handle administrative authority on the list? We've got a lot of options, some less palatable than others. It's obvious that, in light of both recent events ond other events in the past, that there is occasionally a need to move to actively work to rein in a listmember that is acting inappropriately. I'm wondering if we need to set up a three or five person committee (perhaps with rotating membership) to deal with stuff like this. Either elected or volunteer membership would do... A rotating committee of active list members could act as a panel of judges/arbitrators in 'non-immediate danger' situations; but a listmember who was 'dangerous' - as in hacking into a security system - could legitimately be 'banned' immediately by the listowners, with arbitration/discussion to follow, setting conditions of moderation or sanctions. frowns at this thread-over to Iraq Pros: Such a system would take some of the responsibilities from the listowners, and give listmembers a way to request intervention if they felt they were being treated unfairly (but it just might *prevent* such a situation in the first place). If it doesn't meet with the community's approval during a trial period, dissolve it. Cons: ~This would require the willing participation of all active members. ~Panels (3- or 5-person) would have to be balanced as much as possible WRT positions on free expression, what constitutes harrassment or personal attacks, etc. ~The list would become at least partially 'moderated' - or perhaps 'more an adult.' I'm sure there are many more I haven't thought of. This also has the merit of being a proactive way of dealing with problems. It might help us solve problems before they inflate. Would I be willing to be on such a panel? Only if it was for a specified length of time (3 months? 6? shudder), because I *would not* enjoy dealing with such conflicts, but I can't really propose something if I'm not willing to be a part of, can I? I'd also volunteer. I'd rather find a solution than sit on the sidelines while things heat up. I don't like having to discuss this at all, but it isn't going to go away. :( Debbi Indeed. Jean-Louis Do we really need to go this far? Brin-L was conceptualized with open transparency in mind. The type of 'big brother' committee you're proposing is, I believe, overkill. What's wrong with a simple majority vote (over a finite time period -- say a couple of days or more), on whether someone should be moderated for a pre-specified time period. A random member could be selected as a non-voting arbitrator in case of a tie. I'm very curious about how more people (Marvin, Adam, Julia, Ronn, Reggie, Jim, Nick, Erik etc.,) feel about your idea. Jon _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
Jon said: What's wrong with a simple majority vote (over a finite time period -- say a couple of days or more), on whether someone should be moderated for a pre-specified time period. Why do I suddenly see all traffic on Brin-L becoming moderation resolutions and counter-resolutions, with a sprinkling of discussion on whether the whole system is reasonable or not and a side order of random unsubscriptions? Rich GSV Pandemonium ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
Richard Baker wrote: Jon said: What's wrong with a simple majority vote (over a finite time period -- say a couple of days or more), on whether someone should be moderated for a pre-specified time period. Why do I suddenly see all traffic on Brin-L becoming moderation resolutions and counter-resolutions, with a sprinkling of discussion on whether the whole system is reasonable or not and a side order of random unsubscriptions? Because that's the issue that's worrying some people? Or maybe a few people really like playing Nomic and take that farther afield than some of the rest would like? Or maybe something else I can't really think of right now? I'd be just as happy with some *real* topics for discussion. Anyone have anything more to add on those mice? If not, anyone want to hear anything silly regarding mice? :) (If so on the last, change the subject header so's I see it to respond to more quickly.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Silly mice (was Re: Open question to the list)
Julia Thompson wrote: I'd be just as happy with some *real* topics for discussion. Anyone have anything more to add on those mice? If not, anyone want to hear anything silly regarding mice? :) (If so on the last, change the subject header so's I see it to respond to more quickly.) I want to hear silly mouse-related things! :-) __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Silly mice (was Re: Open question to the list)
On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Steve Sloan II wrote: I want to hear silly mouse-related things! :-) My mouse was squeaking yesterday so I tried to clean it. But I had to stop because it scratched me bit me peed on me. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Silly mice (was Re: Open question to the list)
Steve Sloan II wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: I'd be just as happy with some *real* topics for discussion. Anyone have anything more to add on those mice? If not, anyone want to hear anything silly regarding mice? :) (If so on the last, change the subject header so's I see it to respond to more quickly.) I want to hear silly mouse-related things! :-) Well, on the way to Sammy's checkup with the pediatrician, Dan told me about a system where they put a GPS locator into a cattle shock collar. You can set the range for your herd via software and when a member of the herd starts to stray, it'll get a shock. So now a cowboy can herd cattle on a mouse. Which brings up the image of a tiny person with a Stetson and boots riding a rodent. And then being squished beneath a hoof. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Silly mice (was Re: Open question to the list)
In a message dated 12/6/02 2:24:38 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I want to hear silly mouse-related things! :-) My mouse was squeaking yesterday so I tried to clean it. But I had to stop because it scratched me bit me peed on me. How to clean your mouse balls: http://205.180.85.40/w/pc.cgi?mid=13803sid=5248 and www.mouseballz.com William Taylor --- eeek. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
Julia said: I'd be just as happy with some *real* topics for discussion. Anyone have anything more to add on those mice? If not, anyone want to hear anything silly regarding mice? Here's the silliest (but coolest) mouse-related thing I've ever seen: #http://metku.net/cryo/# Rich GCU Cryogenic Experiment GSV No Animals Were Harmed ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Jon Gabriel wrote: Do we really need to go this far? Brin-L was conceptualized with open transparency in mind. The type of 'big brother' committee you're proposing is, I believe, overkill. What's wrong with a simple majority vote (over a finite time period -- say a couple of days or more), on whether someone should be moderated for a pre-specified time period. A random member could be selected as a non-voting arbitrator in case of a tie. I'm very curious about how more people (Marvin, Adam, Julia, Ronn, Reggie, Jim, Nick, Erik etc.,) feel about your idea. I think that we've strayed over time into an error of thinking that a list like Brin-L is comparable to a small society governed by a state which must be democratic in the way it defines and applies rules. I no longer lend credence to formal suggestions for fixing the system because there is no system. Brin-L is a social milieu, like a big rollicking house party with a few too many drugs and which has been going on for perhaps a bit too long. One does not govern such a thing with democratic votes or councils of elders. Rather, one is grateful for the extreme forbearance of one's host. When things get dull, one cries out for more drugs (threads, in our case). And when things get rowdy, one tries to remember that one is a guest long enough to calm things down. Partygoers who cannot remember that they are guests are, in such contexts, typically asked to leave until they can regain control of themselves. Those who think they have an inalienable right to participate in the party no matter their behavior will *inevitably* be mocked, derided, and chucked out the door. It's not about justice. It's not about rights. It's about human nature as it manifests in situations like ours. If one remembers that one is a guest, and that it's the kind of party at which *almost* anything is tolerated, one finds little reason for complaint. If one assumes that Brin-L is an entitlement by means of which one is owed some degree of satisfaction, however, then one's lot will be sad indeed. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
Marvin Long, Jr. wrote: It's not about justice. It's not about rights. It's about human nature as it manifests in situations like ours. If one remembers that one is a guest, and that it's the kind of party at which *almost* anything is tolerated, one finds little reason for complaint. If one assumes that Brin-L is an entitlement by means of which one is owed some degree of satisfaction, however, then one's lot will be sad indeed. As usual, when Marvin gets serious, he hits the nail on the head. I don't have much to add, I'm afraid. I'm not in favor of commitees and things. I'd prefer that people just remember that we are in a way, visitors in each others' houses each time we post to the list. That's not to say we have to be nice or agree all the time, but that there ought to always be a measure of respect when dealing with one another. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Open question to the list
Aw man. Now I have that section from So Long and Thanks for All the Fish in my head. The one with the flying party that has devastated the planet it's orbiting in a search for alcoholic drinks? Jon GSV It's late and I'm Slaphappy. Will deal with the deeper ramifications tomorrow. :-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Marvin Long, Jr. Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 5:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Open question to the list On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Jon Gabriel wrote: Do we really need to go this far? Brin-L was conceptualized with open transparency in mind. The type of 'big brother' committee you're proposing is, I believe, overkill. What's wrong with a simple majority vote (over a finite time period -- say a couple of days or more), on whether someone should be moderated for a pre-specified time period. A random member could be selected as a non-voting arbitrator in case of a tie. I'm very curious about how more people (Marvin, Adam, Julia, Ronn, Reggie, Jim, Nick, Erik etc.,) feel about your idea. I think that we've strayed over time into an error of thinking that a list like Brin-L is comparable to a small society governed by a state which must be democratic in the way it defines and applies rules. I no longer lend credence to formal suggestions for fixing the system because there is no system. Brin-L is a social milieu, like a big rollicking house party with a few too many drugs and which has been going on for perhaps a bit too long. One does not govern such a thing with democratic votes or councils of elders. Rather, one is grateful for the extreme forbearance of one's host. When things get dull, one cries out for more drugs (threads, in our case). And when things get rowdy, one tries to remember that one is a guest long enough to calm things down. Partygoers who cannot remember that they are guests are, in such contexts, typically asked to leave until they can regain control of themselves. Those who think they have an inalienable right to participate in the party no matter their behavior will *inevitably* be mocked, derided, and chucked out the door. It's not about justice. It's not about rights. It's about human nature as it manifests in situations like ours. If one remembers that one is a guest, and that it's the kind of party at which *almost* anything is tolerated, one finds little reason for complaint. If one assumes that Brin-L is an entitlement by means of which one is owed some degree of satisfaction, however, then one's lot will be sad indeed. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Open question to the list
Nick wrote: I'm always open to suggestions on how to make the difficult trade-off between list governance and free-ranging discussion, self-determination as a group, etc. First, let me state on-list as I did privately in an email to Nick and Julia that I support their decision. In response to what Nick says above, I'd like to pose an open question to the list. I'm interested in responses that apply to governance in general, and also specifically to our current situation re: Jeroen. This question also applies to story that was recently posted (or rather the link to the story was posted) concerning the difference between the European political worldview and the American political worldview. Does a truly democratic society need police, or is there some other, better way to handle disruptive behavior and those who behave disruptively? Reggie Bautista _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
Reggie wrote: I'd like to pose an open question to the list. I'm interested in responses that apply to governance in general, and also specifically to our current situation re: Jeroen. *snip* Does a truly democratic society need police, or is there some other, better way to handle disruptive behavior and those who behave disruptively? I've been thinking about this, espcially in light of some of the complints leveled against Nick and Julia. Nick, I think, has de facto authority over the list, due to the fact that he is providing the hosting, and it's on his equipment, with software he owns. Julia has, in my opinion, shown herself to be levelheaded, impartial and hard to intimidate, so I pretty automatically assumed she'd be in some type of listowner/admin position. How should we handle administrative authority on the list? We've got a lot of options, some less palatable than others. It's obvious that, in light of both recent events ond other events in the past, that there is occasionally a need to move to actively work to rein in a listmember that is acting inappropriately. I'm wondering if we need to set up a three or five person committee (perhaps with rotating membership) to deal with stuff like this. Either elected or volunteer membership would do, but I'd nominate Alberto for sure. I dunno - it's the bare bones of an idea, and I'm not sure how the damn thing would work, but it's worth discussing, I think. Or maybe not. Just throwing out an idea. Adam __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
on 5/12/02 4:14 pm, Reggie Bautista at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does a truly democratic society need police, or is there some other, better way to handle disruptive behavior and those who behave disruptively? Slap drone them. -- William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: I'm wondering if we need to set up a three or five person committee (perhaps with rotating membership) to deal with stuff like this. Either elected or volunteer membership would do, but I'd nominate Alberto for sure. Takeover Plan Part Three - complete evil laughter Alberto Buyur ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Open question to the list
-Original Message- From: Reggie Bautista [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 08:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Open question to the list Nick wrote: I'm always open to suggestions on how to make the difficult trade-off between list governance and free-ranging discussion, self-determination as a group, etc. First, let me state on-list as I did privately in an email to Nick and Julia that I support their decision. Ditto. I unsubbed a while back to get away from the noise, and finally decided that after 4-ish years on the list, I missed it more than Jeroen bothered me, so I was willing to give it another shot. In response to what Nick says above, I'd like to pose an open question to the list. I'm interested in responses that apply to governance in general, and also specifically to our current situation re: Jeroen. Its always a tricky thing, isn't it? I mean, its not something you generally have to worry about until someone steps over the line in a fashion like Jeroen has. Anger, dispute, a flame or two, that's all understandable, even important to an intellectually challenging and passionate community, but how does one deal with someone who's thrashing threatens to capsize all else? I don't have a good answer for your question Nick, despite having gone through this exact situation on 3 of my seattle-gaming lists with a certain person who had a similar approach as Jeroen IRT the community as a whole. I ended up unsubbing the person rather than banning them; 6 months later, they resubbed, participated nicely, then exploded into an angerball, forcing me to unsub them again. its been ~6 months since then, and I expect them to resub any day and the cycle to begin anew. Does a truly democratic society need police, or is there some other, better way to handle disruptive behavior and those who behave disruptively? Police have important social roles as well as law-enforcement. I was pleasently surprised this morning to see a motorcycle cop helping a man to change a tire on I-5 (instead of the usual pepper-spray and tear-gas Seattle PD response..) -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Ouch! (was RE: Open question to the list)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Miller, Jeffrey ... Police have important social roles as well as law-enforcement. I was pleasently surprised this morning to see a motorcycle cop helping a man to change a tire on I-5 (instead of the usual pepper-spray and tear-gas Seattle PD response..) They do that to you just for getting a flat tire!? Remind me not to drive in Seattle any more. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Ouch! (was RE: Open question to the list)
-Original Message- From: Nick Arnett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 11:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ouch! (was RE: Open question to the list) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Miller, Jeffrey ... Police have important social roles as well as law-enforcement. I was pleasently surprised this morning to see a motorcycle cop helping a man to change a tire on I-5 (instead of the usual pepper-spray and tear-gas Seattle PD response..) They do that to you just for getting a flat tire!? Remind me not to drive in Seattle any more. Well, the trick is whether or not they /tell/ you they're a cop first. That's the tricky part. -j- (there was a case here recently where an off-duty sherrif in plain clothes drew a gun on a pair of men sitting in their truck who were not visibily breaking the law (other than being black in a white suburb.) The officer fired several times into the truck, killing one man and wounding the other, at which time he THEN informed them he was a police officer..) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ouch! (was RE: Open question to the list)
At 11:12 AM 12/5/02 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Miller, Jeffrey ... Police have important social roles as well as law-enforcement. I was pleasently surprised this morning to see a motorcycle cop helping a man to change a tire on I-5 (instead of the usual pepper-spray and tear-gas Seattle PD response..) They do that to you just for getting a flat tire!? Remind me not to drive in Seattle any more. Around here, they have a fleet of pickup trucks (painted bright yellow, with flashing lights on top and back so they can be easily seen when stopped) that drive around the interstate system for the express purpose helping stranded motorists--they carry emergency supplies such as a jack, a can of gas, etc., and by calling a particular *nn number on a cell phone, a driver with car trouble or other problems can get one dispatched to a particular location where it is needed. I think I prefer _our_ system to one where the cops Mace you for having a flat tire . . . ;-) -- Ronn in Birmingham, AL :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
At 08:13 PM 12/5/02 +0100, J. van Baardwijk wrote: At 08:46 05-12-2002 -0800, Adam Lipscomb wrote: Nick, I think, has de facto authority over the list, due to the fact that he is providing the hosting, and it's on his equipment, with software he owns. That does not give him authority over the list. If I let company X host a website, then that company is providing the hosting, on their equipment, using software they own. However, that does not give that company the authority to determine what I can and cannot put on my website, nor can they take the site down if I say something they disagree with. I don't believe that is correct. I think that most if not all hosting services have terms of service agreements to which those who use their services to host web sites must adhere, and they regulate or prohibit certain types of content or activity. --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Open question to the list
--- Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Does a truly democratic society need police, or is there some other, better way to handle disruptive behavior and those who behave disruptively? In a large open society, I think police will always be necessary because there will always be at least some disruptive/dangerous people (barring gengineering of docile humans - not at all desirable to my mind). In a small and tightly-knit community, 'shunning' has been more-or-less effective in dealing with 'disruptive elements,' at the cost of creating a 'misfit class.' This requires a great majority of the community's participation to be an effective deterrent or punishment. I think the on-line equivalent would be a public statement of killfiling. Just as shunning can be temporary or permanent, so too for killfiling. Violent behavior, on the other hand, requires force to counter it, contain it or transform it. In the real world, anyone in physical proximity to the perpetrator can (in theory) oppose violent action, given some forewarning or possessing an effective weapon (I'm ignoring long-range military-type capabiities for the purposes of this discussion). The on-line equivalent of violence, IMHO, would have to have the potential of real-life consequences for the 'victim.' In the virtual world, it appears to me that only the offender's service provider, or the 'owner' of the on-line forum (the list, in our case) has the equivalent of 'physical proximity.' In RL, however, while immediate danger allows me to take whatever action I see fit, *potential* danger does not. Frex, if I wake up to find a stranger standing in my bedroom doorway, I have the right to shoot him as I can rationally conclude that my life is on the line. But if my cat wakes me up because there's a stranger on the communal apartment stairs at 1AM, I may not shoot him through my front door, but must call the authorities for help as I am *not* certain that my or my neighbor's life is in danger yet. Moving forward a bit, while police also have the right to defend their lives or those that they judge to be in danger, their authority derives from the law, and sometimes they have to get permission from a judge to, say, search a given building (I'm far from a legal expert, so bear with this potentially flawed analogy). Adam Lipscomb wrote: How should we handle administrative authority on the list? We've got a lot of options, some less palatable than others. It's obvious that, in light of both recent events ond other events in the past, that there is occasionally a need to move to actively work to rein in a listmember that is acting inappropriately. I'm wondering if we need to set up a three or five person committee (perhaps with rotating membership) to deal with stuff like this. Either elected or volunteer membership would do... A rotating committee of active list members could act as a panel of judges/arbitrators in 'non-immediate danger' situations; but a listmember who was 'dangerous' - as in hacking into a security system - could legitimately be 'banned' immediately by the listowners, with arbitration/discussion to follow, setting conditions of moderation or sanctions. frowns at this thread-over to Iraq Pros: Such a system would take some of the responsibilities from the listowners, and give listmembers a way to request intervention if they felt they were being treated unfairly (but it just might *prevent* such a situation in the first place). If it doesn't meet with the community's approval during a trial period, dissolve it. Cons: ~This would require the willing participation of all active members. ~Panels (3- or 5-person) would have to be balanced as much as possible WRT positions on free expression, what constitutes harrassment or personal attacks, etc. ~The list would become at least partially 'moderated' - or perhaps 'more an adult.' I'm sure there are many more I haven't thought of. Would I be willing to be on such a panel? Only if it was for a specified length of time (3 months? 6? shudder), because I *would not* enjoy dealing with such conflicts, but I can't really propose something if I'm not willing to be a part of, can I? I don't like having to discuss this at all, but it isn't going to go away. :( Debbi __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
