Bad Communion Bread
I'll respond to Jan's message in pieces: Here eat this bread which has a high probablility of having an halusinogen in it and drink these firmented grapes which have alchohaul in it. No, but lets look at your evidence. I looked up ergot and found: http://www.killerplants.com/herbal-folklore/20010910.asp Ergot (Claviceps purpurea) is a fungus that attacks grasses, principally rye and wheat. It reproduces by replacing the grain with a hard, dark bundle of hyphae called a sclerotium. In rye, this sclerotium looks like a horn. (Ergot is from the French, argot, for spur in reference to this shape.) But this bundle of hyphae contains insidious toxins, alkaloids closely aligned to lysergic acid and LSD. The ergot alkaloids are vasoconstrictors; they restrict the flow of blood through the veins and arteries. If enough of the toxins are consumed, the blood no longer circulates...It was probably the herbalists in the monasteries that first noted the correlation between wet summers, darker rye bread, and the outbreaks of ergotism. There are a few things worth noting there: 1) The levening of the bread didn't make much difference. 2) Wet weather was correlated with the phenomenon. 3) It led to illness and death. So, it seems that the use of unleavened bread (which I don't remember being documented in scripture..except that the Last Supper was a Passover meal) for Communion does not seem to be particularly indiciative of this phenomenon. Further, since the Passover meal was a very long standing And, elsewhere we have: http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wong/BOT135/LECT12.HTM The occurrence of Claviceps purpurea must have began with the cultivation of Secale cereale, Rye since it was far more common on that host than in other grains. Rye was a weed grain and occurred wherever wheat was cultivated. Often it became the dominant plant when wheat fields were abandoned. Thus, in a way, where ever civilization became established, Rye would follow it there. However, it was not cultivated for food until some time, in the early Middle Ages (around the 5th. Century), in what is now eastern Europe and western Russia. And finally, we have: http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/Jennifer1/explanations.html Ergot is extremely poisonous and is separated from grains when harvested. Eating or coming in contact with this fungi can result in extreme sickness, arms turning black and falling off or death. The chemicals found in this fungi can have a very mild hallucinogenic and sedating effect, but one would have to consume a large amount of the ergot to get enough of these chemicals in to their system for the effect. Therefor, being poisonous, would not be possible without dying first. Another argument is that a chemical process might happen when baking. This is also unlikely due to the fact that heat destroys ergot alkaloids and other chemical compounds. Chemically speaking, it is more likely that these people were werewolves rather than tripping on rye bread. This information is to enlighten and remind you that anything is possible in this world. So, putting together three sources, it seems to me that the ergot theory has a lot of holes in it. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bad Communion Bread
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll respond to Jan's message in pieces: Here eat this bread which has a high probablility of having an halusinogen in it and drink these firmented grapes which have alchohaul in it. No, but lets look at your evidence. I looked up ergot and found: http://www.killerplants.com/herbal-folklore/20010910.asp There are a few things worth noting there: 1) The levening of the bread didn't make much difference. Nothing mentioned on levening in the article where did you get this? 2) Wet weather was correlated with the phenomenon. At the time of the article which is not really on the subject so what? 3) It led to illness and death. I'm not going to go running around looking for supporting text for something that I have learned through docs and in class. But it is my understanding that: 1) Yest was used to cancle the effect of the argot. sickness of otherwise. 2) Unleven bread has been used in other spiritual practices as an halucinogen, specificaly without sickness and death. Rye was a weed grain and occurred wherever wheat was cultivated. Often it became the dominant plant when wheat fields were abandoned. Thus, in a way, where ever civilization became established, Rye would follow it there. However, it was not cultivated for food until some time, in the early Middle Ages (around the 5th. Century), in what is now eastern Europe and western Russia. And the harvesting practices of 2000 years ago was so good that the rye was specificaly removed from the wheat? http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/Jennifer1/explanations.html Ergot is extremely poisonous and is separated from grains when harvested. Eating or coming in contact with this fungi can result in extreme sickness, arms turning black and falling off or death. The chemicals found in this fungi can have a very mild hallucinogenic and sedating effect, but one would have to consume a large amount of the ergot to get enough of these chemicals in to their system for the effect. Therefor, being poisonous, would not be possible without dying first. Another argument is that a chemical process might happen when baking. This is also unlikely due to the fact that heat destroys ergot alkaloids and other chemical compounds. Chemically speaking, it is more likely that these people were werewolves rather than tripping on rye bread. This information is to enlighten and remind you that anything is possible in this world. Mild halusinogen is all that is required I was not saying that they were tripping to the extent of 1960 drugies. Just that they would have a hightened sense of spirituality. Further more the sicknesses you reference are from ~continued~ use in large quatities. And that is not what we are talking about. Even further their are plenty of references to wormwood and burning bush which can be traslated as wormwood, and history of munks who use wormwood. Wormwood is also very poisinous (as is most natural halucinogens) and yet people take them in small quantities and survive. Besides, most of the miricles that are claimed in the bible and many of the actions and states of mind that these people seem to be in, can be very easily explained as halucinations. So, putting together three sources, it seems to me that the ergot theory has a lot of holes in it. ha ha. But to adress the statment You have skilfully found text you can twist to support your opinoin. If I were more skilled at that practice (and I was willing to sspend that effor and time on it) then I could probably find supporting ~text~ as well. I personaly do not put a lot of credibility in such things. Supporing text and doctored statistics can always be found to support whatever you like. Experts disagree enough on such topics that twisting it your way is allways possible. I do not engage, or put much credence in such a practice. It probably has something to do with the way I process text, but it is also experience. Just becouse someone wrote it down doesn't make it so. Those who equate phenome recal with knowldege and textual processing with the aquisition of knowledge may disagree, but these people tend to think linerly and find non-linear thinking dificult. I could easily claim that such text based linear knowlege: is nothign but nonsens, and I often do when it is warented. The Warewolf buisness is one such case. That said there is a certain level of understanding which one can aquire from text. But this requires supporting study, not just statment. Non of the references you make speak to the specifics of argot or discuss studies performed with the substance. None of them say anything about the effect of yeast on the argot itslef. None of them discuss what mild effect it might have or what they mean by ~mild~. Also this was a suggestion, a more simple explination than what most christian organizations believe. It is not my duty to support a more simple explination by searchig the web for some specific
Re: bread
Jon Gabriel wrote: *grin* My Breadman Ultimate and I are horribly insulted. :) Jon (Who will risk acne for homemade Sourdough Pizza.) :) Does your Breadman Ultimate have a french bread setting? An excellent question, and seeing as how I've made a variety of French Breads, you'd think I would know the answer. I believe so, but will check when I get home. I've been taking requests since before my wedding from various family members for different breads. My wife even bought me a bread machine cookbook as one of my birthday presents in October -- which means our kitchen saw a Pumpkin Incident a couple of weeks ago when I tried to make a pumpkin challah. (I was subsequently informed that the ugly result was God's way of punishing me for making challah on Saturday. :-) ) (I might get a breadmaker eventually) They're awesome -- even though my wife only uses it for pizza dough. :) I've gone from only making cinnamon raisin bread to more creative varieties. We got to chow down on my mother-in-law's Swedish molasses bread over Thanksgiving. Now, *that* was yummy. (We have 5 loaves in the freezer, but those are to give the neighbors.) Dan wants to learn how to make it over Christmas. Then we'd be in sweet brown bread whenever we wanted to be YUM! That sounds really tasty. If it's not a secret family recipe would you mind sharing? (I'll try not to beg!) :-) Jon I thought this was a low-carb list? Where's that unsubscribe button? Kevin T. Ten days gone=1300 messages to go ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: bread
*grin* My Breadman Ultimate and I are horribly insulted. :) Jon (Who will risk acne for homemade Sourdough Pizza.) :) From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Brin-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: bread Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:05:27 -0600 http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3144 Eating too much refined bread and cereal, rather than chocolate and greasy foods, may be the culprit behind the pimples that plague many a youngster. That is the theory of a team led by Loren Cordain, an evolutionary biologist at Colorado State University in Fort Collins. Highly processed breads and cereals are easily digested. The resulting flood of sugars makes the body produce high levels of insulin and insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1). This in turn leads to an excess of male hormones. These encourage pores in the skin to ooze large amounts of sebum, the greasy goop that acne-promoting bacteria love. IGF-1 also encourages skin cells called keratinocytes to multiply, a hallmark of acne, the team say in a paper that will appear in the December issue of Archives of Dermatology. An Australian team will soon test the theory by putting 60 teenage boys with acne on a low-carbohydrate diet for three months to see if it makes a difference. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: bread
Jon Gabriel wrote: *grin* My Breadman Ultimate and I are horribly insulted. :) Jon (Who will risk acne for homemade Sourdough Pizza.) :) Does your Breadman Ultimate have a french bread setting? (I might get a breadmaker eventually) We got to chow down on my mother-in-law's Swedish molasses bread over Thanksgiving. Now, *that* was yummy. (We have 5 loaves in the freezer, but those are to give the neighbors.) Dan wants to learn how to make it over Christmas. Then we'd be in sweet brown bread whenever we wanted to be Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: bread
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: bread Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:15:55 -0600 Jon Gabriel wrote: *grin* My Breadman Ultimate and I are horribly insulted. :) Jon (Who will risk acne for homemade Sourdough Pizza.) :) Does your Breadman Ultimate have a french bread setting? An excellent question, and seeing as how I've made a variety of French Breads, you'd think I would know the answer. I believe so, but will check when I get home. I've been taking requests since before my wedding from various family members for different breads. My wife even bought me a bread machine cookbook as one of my birthday presents in October -- which means our kitchen saw a Pumpkin Incident a couple of weeks ago when I tried to make a pumpkin challah. (I was subsequently informed that the ugly result was God's way of punishing me for making challah on Saturday. :-) ) (I might get a breadmaker eventually) They're awesome -- even though my wife only uses it for pizza dough. :) I've gone from only making cinnamon raisin bread to more creative varieties. We got to chow down on my mother-in-law's Swedish molasses bread over Thanksgiving. Now, *that* was yummy. (We have 5 loaves in the freezer, but those are to give the neighbors.) Dan wants to learn how to make it over Christmas. Then we'd be in sweet brown bread whenever we wanted to be YUM! That sounds really tasty. If it's not a secret family recipe would you mind sharing? (I'll try not to beg!) :-) Jon _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: bread
-Original Message- From: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: bread I've been taking requests since before my wedding from various family members for different breads. My wife even bought me a bread machine cookbook as one of my birthday presents in October -- which means our kitchen saw a Pumpkin Incident a couple of weeks ago when I tried to make a pumpkin challah. (I was subsequently informed that the ugly result was God's way of punishing me for making challah on Saturday. :-) ) Can I get the recipe anyway? Demonspawn or not, my gf loves challah and pumpkin. Oh, regional question - anyone seeing adverts for Punkin flavored items? Never saw it until I moved to the NorthWest.. We got to chow down on my mother-in-law's Swedish molasses bread over Thanksgiving. Now, *that* was yummy. (We have 5 loaves in the freezer, but those are to give the neighbors.) Dan wants to learn how to make it over Christmas. Then we'd be in sweet brown bread whenever we wanted to be YUM! That sounds really tasty. If it's not a secret family recipe would you mind sharing? (I'll try not to beg!) :-) Is it at all like brown bread (the kind that comes in a can)? -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: bread
From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: bread Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:33:54 -0800 -Original Message- From: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: bread I've been taking requests since before my wedding from various family members for different breads. My wife even bought me a bread machine cookbook as one of my birthday presents in October -- which means our kitchen saw a Pumpkin Incident a couple of weeks ago when I tried to make a pumpkin challah. (I was subsequently informed that the ugly result was God's way of punishing me for making challah on Saturday. :-) ) Can I get the recipe anyway? Demonspawn or not, my gf loves challah and pumpkin. I'm tempted to ask if your girlfriend or the challah are demonspawn. : *grin* j/k. No prob. Will write it up this evening and send it to you offlist. If anyone else wants it let me know offlist and I'll copy you. :) BTW, let me know if you're interested: the book also has a recipe for Chocolate Challah and one for regular challah. (If there are others, I'll let you know.) But be forewarned, it's a bread machine recipe book, so the recipes are specifically designed for 'em. :) Jon _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: bread
Jon Gabriel wrote: From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: bread Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:15:55 -0600 We got to chow down on my mother-in-law's Swedish molasses bread over Thanksgiving. Now, *that* was yummy. (We have 5 loaves in the freezer, but those are to give the neighbors.) Dan wants to learn how to make it over Christmas. Then we'd be in sweet brown bread whenever we wanted to be YUM! That sounds really tasty. If it's not a secret family recipe would you mind sharing? (I'll try not to beg!) :-) Well, I don't think it's written down anywhere here, so it would have to wait until she came back for Christmas. I have the directions of what to do once the dough is mixed, but an ingredient list would be a much more helpful starting place. :) Julia who knows that 2 kinds of molasses, butter, sugar, yeast and an egg go into it, and flour, of course, but not what the quantities are or what goes into the mixture you heat up on the stove before you start putting flour in ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: bread
-Original Message- From: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: bread From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] means our kitchen saw a Pumpkin Incident a couple of weeks ago when I tried to make a pumpkin challah. (I was subsequently informed that the ugly result was God's way of punishing me for making challah on Saturday. :-) ) Can I get the recipe anyway? Demonspawn or not, my gf loves challah and pumpkin. I'm tempted to ask if your girlfriend or the challah are demonspawn. : *grin* j/k. That would be telling.. No prob. Will write it up this evening and send it to you offlist. If anyone else wants it let me know offlist and I'll copy you. :) thankee BTW, let me know if you're interested: the book also has a recipe for Chocolate Challah and one for regular challah. (If there are others, I'll let you know.) m -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
bread
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3144 Eating too much refined bread and cereal, rather than chocolate and greasy foods, may be the culprit behind the pimples that plague many a youngster. That is the theory of a team led by Loren Cordain, an evolutionary biologist at Colorado State University in Fort Collins. Highly processed breads and cereals are easily digested. The resulting flood of sugars makes the body produce high levels of insulin and insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1). This in turn leads to an excess of male hormones. These encourage pores in the skin to ooze large amounts of sebum, the greasy goop that acne-promoting bacteria love. IGF-1 also encourages skin cells called keratinocytes to multiply, a hallmark of acne, the team say in a paper that will appear in the December issue of Archives of Dermatology. An Australian team will soon test the theory by putting 60 teenage boys with acne on a low-carbohydrate diet for three months to see if it makes a difference. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: bread
The Fool wrote: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3144 Eating too much refined bread and cereal, rather than chocolate and greasy foods, may be the culprit behind the pimples that plague many a youngster. Very intersting. So after the connection between diet and pimples has been debunked, it may turn out to have been close to the mark after all! Reggie Bautista _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: bread
The Fool wrote: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3144 Eating too much refined bread and cereal, rather than chocolate and greasy foods, may be the culprit behind the pimples that plague many a youngster. If it turns out that I spurned chocolate and chips (fries for you USAns) throughout all those years for nothing I'm going to be seriously pissed off. I mean those were the years when I was sufficiently active that putting on weight was never an issue - I only avoided them to avoid pimples... Now I don't have to worry about pimples, but a sedentary job and insufficient physical activity in my limited spare time mean I still can't eat them as I'd like to... Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
