Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:23 AM, Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Mark, Quoting Mark Keating [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have the original .eps file of the Catalyst logo, you will find it at: http://www.external.shadowcatprojects.net/data/common/images/catalyst logo.eps Thank you very much! Marcus Ramberg already pointed me to the catalyst subversion repository where the eps version is also stored :) --Tobias Hey Tobias and all, What's the verdict here? Do we have a final tally on the designs to work with? -J ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
On 06.07.2008, at 21:29, J. Shirley wrote: On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:23 AM, Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you very much! Marcus Ramberg already pointed me to the catalyst subversion repository where the eps version is also stored :) Hey Tobias and all, What's the verdict here? Do we have a final tally on the designs to work with? To be honest, I haven't had much time to further work on the design and/or html (the latest version can still be found at http://www.funkreich.de/catalyst) . Also, I think we haven't agreed on one version yet. If memory serves, somebody pointed out that before continuing the design efforts we should try to define the target group of Catalyst and how to speak to it. That'll have a huge impact on the overall layout and textual elements IMHO. I think it'd be a good idea to start of with some sort of sitemap that shows what should be where and under what label. I'd really love to have all the important pages (about, documentation, wiki, etc) in one unified layout. Defining what makes up the final site will help tailoring the design to fit every need. --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
Tobias Kremer ha scritto: Quoting Aristotle Pagaltzis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: * Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-06-17 08:40]: I've incorporated some of the suggestions into the next version of the mockup which can be found here: Awesome. There are still nits, but you have already made those clear yourself, and it’s a huge improvement over the promising first draft, so I’m confident you’ll get there. I've started to code the site and the ongoing process is available at http://www.funkreich.de/catalyst. It's currently known to look good in Mozilla Firefox and Safari. MSIE (as always) still looks a bit odd but I think we're far from browser-optimizing the site :) Some nits: [...] Thanks! :) • The text in the left column: I don’t have a good suggestion off hand, but if you want, I can spend some time thinking about it. (Are you on IRC? We might confer/brainstorm a bit.) Good idea! My nick is soulchild but I'm currently at work and can't promise that I'll make it into the room. --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/ It looks great on FF3.0 I think the cat logo could be enlarged and made transparent, so that the lower arm of the crop circle overlaps a little with the red bar below. This way the logo could be enlarged without the need to add more white space to the top of the page (which would be a waste of space), and would also add a bit of special effect to the page, without being, IMHO, too intrusive. Just my .2 cents. Keep up the good work! -- Marcello Romani Responsabile IT Ottotecnica s.r.l. http://www.ottotecnica.com ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
I have the original .eps file of the Catalyst logo, you will find it at: http://www.external.shadowcatprojects.net/data/common/images/catalyst logo.eps It can be scaled to pretty much any size in a IMP but if you would like it as a png/gif/jpg of a set size/quality and do not have the time/inclination to do it just ask and I will do this for you and post it to the same location for retrival. Marcello Romani wrote: Tobias Kremer ha scritto: Quoting Aristotle Pagaltzis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: * Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-06-17 08:40]: I've incorporated some of the suggestions into the next version of the mockup which can be found here: Awesome. There are still nits, but you have already made those clear yourself, and it’s a huge improvement over the promising first draft, so I’m confident you’ll get there. I've started to code the site and the ongoing process is available at http://www.funkreich.de/catalyst. It's currently known to look good in Mozilla Firefox and Safari. MSIE (as always) still looks a bit odd but I think we're far from browser-optimizing the site :) Some nits: [...] Thanks! :) • The text in the left column: I don’t have a good suggestion off hand, but if you want, I can spend some time thinking about it. (Are you on IRC? We might confer/brainstorm a bit.) Good idea! My nick is soulchild but I'm currently at work and can't promise that I'll make it into the room. --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/ It looks great on FF3.0 I think the cat logo could be enlarged and made transparent, so that the lower arm of the crop circle overlaps a little with the red bar below. This way the logo could be enlarged without the need to add more white space to the top of the page (which would be a waste of space), and would also add a bit of special effect to the page, without being, IMHO, too intrusive. Just my .2 cents. Keep up the good work! -- Mark Keating BA (Hons) | Writer, Photographer, Cat-Herder Managing Director | Shadowcat Systems Limited Director/Secretary | Enlightened Perl Organisation http://www.shadowcat.co.uk | http://www.enlightenedperl.org http://linkedin.com/in/markkeating | 'Sufficiently Advanced Technology' ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
Hey Mark, Quoting Mark Keating [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have the original .eps file of the Catalyst logo, you will find it at: http://www.external.shadowcatprojects.net/data/common/images/catalyst logo.eps Thank you very much! Marcus Ramberg already pointed me to the catalyst subversion repository where the eps version is also stored :) --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
Aristotle Pagaltzis ha scritto: * Marcello Romani [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-06-17 08:50]: To get started I would put up a simple page with a bullet list where in a few points the reader has to learn: what is catalyst, what benefits it brings to web developement, how to install it, then point to the first, simple tutorial which will get its feet wet. Isn’t that the purpose of the home page…? A Getting Started page is more the place to put an example app download, a screencast link, a whole bunch of tutorials… stuff like that. Regards, Hmmm you're probably right, but it depends on how long that content will be. On the home page one could put that content in very few words, then descrbie the points in more detail in a getting started page. -- Marcello Romani Responsabile IT Ottotecnica s.r.l. http://www.ottotecnica.com ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
On 18.06.2008, at 00:18, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: * Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-06-17 16:05]: A width of 960 pixels is the current standard Any less than a 1020px window and I get a horizontal scrollbar. That is why I noticed at all. Ah yes, that's because of the padding around the 960px to keep the content from clinging directly to the browser window when it gets too small. resolution. I did that on a site I worked on last year based on directions from the designer we were working with, and it produced a very nice effect. Unfortunately it’s no longer online, but I can let you take a look on my dev box if you want. Show me! :) --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
Quoting Aristotle Pagaltzis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: * Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-06-17 08:40]: I've incorporated some of the suggestions into the next version of the mockup which can be found here: Awesome. There are still nits, but you have already made those clear yourself, and itâs a huge improvement over the promising first draft, so Iâm confident youâll get there. I've started to code the site and the ongoing process is available at http://www.funkreich.de/catalyst. It's currently known to look good in Mozilla Firefox and Safari. MSIE (as always) still looks a bit odd but I think we're far from browser-optimizing the site :) Some nits: [...] Thanks! :) ⢠The text in the left column: I donât have a good suggestion off hand, but if you want, I can spend some time thinking about it. (Are you on IRC? We might confer/brainstorm a bit.) Good idea! My nick is soulchild but I'm currently at work and can't promise that I'll make it into the room. --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
Quoting Aristotle Pagaltzis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: * Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-06-17 11:40]: I've started to code the site and the ongoing process is available at http://www.funkreich.de/catalyst Hmm, that *requires* a maximised browser window on a 1024Ã768 screen. I donât know if it really should⦠how about a jello layout? A width of 960 pixels is the current standard for new sites without skyscraper/wallpaper ads which must be visible on a 1024x768 15 CRT because ad clients and agencies still dictate that as the norm :) Compare my version with the already mentioned movabletype.org for instance. I hadn't heard of jello layouts before - it seems they're very rarely used ... --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
On Jun 17, 2008, at 8:18 AM, J. Shirley wrote: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 7:00 AM, Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Aristotle Pagaltzis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: * Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-06-17 11:40]: I've started to code the site and the ongoing process is available at http://www.funkreich.de/catalyst Hmm, that *requires* a maximised browser window on a 1024×768 screen. I don't know if it really should… how about a jello layout? A width of 960 pixels is the current standard for new sites without skyscraper/wallpaper ads which must be visible on a 1024x768 15 CRT because ad clients and agencies still dictate that as the norm :) Compare my version with the already mentioned movabletype.org for instance. I hadn't heard of jello layouts before - it seems they're very rarely used ... --Tobias This layout is fine but even 960px is too wide and with a fluid layout you could go down to the much more reasonable 730px (an older standard based around leaderboard ads) as the minimum and it would display nicely for everyone from there up whether they have a little notebook screen with the rez down for easier reading or a Cinema display. -Ashley ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
My bikeshed has blue shag carpets with a disco ball and tinted windows. :-) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
* On Thu, Jun 12 2008, Cory Watson wrote: I've been ignoring this thread because it's a bunch of bikeshedding. Basically, I agree. Let's let the designers design. There is nothing worse than a committee that distorts the artist's vision. (When everyone agrees on every detail, you get Microsoft. Bland.) We are never going to settle on a design that satisfies everyone or every concern. Live with it :) It all boils down to this. Catalyst is the only really useful Perl web framework. Perl is the only really useful language for writing web applications. So people are going to use Catalyst regardless of whether the background color on the website is #83f8e2 or #85f9ff. Let's spend our collective efforts doing something other than arguing about colors. Regards, Jonathan Rockway -- print just = another = perl = hacker = if $,=$ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
Jonathan Rockway wrote: Let's spend our collective efforts doing something other than arguing about colors. Exactly. Leave the design of the site as it is and concentrate on making the the content easier to understand and use. Sprawling inconsistent self-contradictory content is still that no matter what colour you paint it. Make the content easy to find and use and it almost doesn't matter what the design looks like. Information architects hate this design-down approach as much as you core Catalyst developers hate poor APIs. Both desires, easy to use web sites and well thought out adaptable APIs require similar approaches and deep thinking in understanding how the site/code may be used and abused. But I guess I am bikeshedding, I don't have the time to be actively involved in the process so what I say is less important. FWIW, I vote that Matt picks what he likes and goes with it as someone is always going to be unhappy with the end result. S. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
* On Fri, Jun 13 2008, Jonathan Tweed wrote: On 13 Jun 2008, at 13:51, Jonathan Rockway wrote: It all boils down to this. Catalyst is the only really useful Perl web framework. Perl is the only really useful language for writing web applications. So people are going to use Catalyst regardless of whether the background color on the website is #83f8e2 or #85f9ff. I think you're missing an 'if you only know Perl'. Otherwise you're just talking shit ;-) I'll bite. I've written web applications in Java, PHP, Cold Fusion, Common Lisp, Haskell, and OCaml. None of these languages have anywhere near the number of libraries that Perl does, and as a result I either waste time reimplementing something trivial-but-tedious, or I settle for half-assed solutions. Java is close, but the syntax is so tedious it's hard to pay attention to the libraries. (PHP and CF aren't real programming languages, so it's not a surprise that there are no libraries.) The Python, Ruby, and Common Lisp communities all share the attitude towards libraries -- if it works for the author, it's perfect; as a result most of the libraries are half-assed special cases that may or may not be helpful. I don't know how Perl escaped this, but it did... most module authors feel obligated to make something generally useful. (Of course there's a lot of junk, but that's fine; nobody uses the junk libraries.) It's a real shame that Lisp doesn't have Perl's libraries, 'cause I really like it a lot better than Perl. It's just that it's not useful for anything. (Emacs Lisp is the exception; not that great of a programming language, but you can do anything in about 5 lines of code thanks to the extensive libraries. But I digress.) Regards, Jonathan Rockway -- print just = another = perl = hacker = if $,=$ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
Hi, (1) http://www.browsing.co.uk/cat I am well aware of this - the top 'tempter' paragraph is way too ugly and on this monitor makes the text pretty difficult to read, but I was on a too tight a schedule to do anything about this. The bottom half of the page has had very little time spent on it. Remember, the only page elements which will appear on all pages are the toolbar ribbons and logo, so are important to get right. The second ribbon is a sub menu as you mouse-over the top main menu sections, so we should have plenty of expansion in that area for the future. This site looks nice and accessible for screen readers also. But I am not sure that I can access all the pages if I must mouseover some links. Can it be used from the keyboard only? (I couldn't test the other examples because they are just images.) Octavian ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
On 11.06.2008, at 23:26, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: * Christopher H. Laco [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-06-11 23:05]: I'd much rather see a footer more like this one: http://movabletype.org/ ++ Thats exactly the kind of what does the first-time visitor expect to see/do here?-driven design (by which I mean the how it works not the how it looks variety) that makes a site actually work. ++ and the how it looks is much better, too :) I don't want to sound rude but I don't like any of the proposed designs. To be honest, from a stilistic point of view they all look worse than the current Catalyst frontpage. They all pale in comparison to nearly EVERY other MVC framework's web site. Look at djangoproject.com, cakephp.org, symfony-project.org, even rubyonrails.org with its simplistic approach is much more attractive. No offense, but if this is a glimpse at the future of catalyst.perl.org I'm seriously worried about the framework's future. This is how to NOT attract new users. Once again, sorry for being so negative but this just shows how much I care about Catalyst gaining more attention. I don't know if there's time for a second round of proposals, but if you ask me we should give this a little bit more time and try to find alternatives. Nevertheless, thanks to all contributors for their work! --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
Quoting Kieren Diment [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 12 Jun 2008, at 17:48, Tobias Kremer wrote: worse than the current Catalyst frontpage. They all pale in comparison to nearly EVERY other MVC framework's web site. Look at djangoproject.com, cakephp.org, symfony-project.org, even rubyonrails.org with its Subjectively speaking, I think that all the sites you mention above are horribly ugly with the exception of the rubyonrails one which is quite nice. Mainly the other sites lose me in a technicolour yawn (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=technicolor+yawn) of blocky colour. This goes to show how different taste can be - It's impossible to discuss these things objectively :) The proposal by Simon Elliott is the only worthwhile contender IMHO, although it's a little bit too conservative/unspecial. I'm still trying to figure out who needs salt'n'pepper for a cake though ... :) The other proposed layouts are making fundamental mistakes regarding color scheme choice and/or distribution of elements. I'm not a professional web designer but a blue box with a thick light green frame below a dark red header and everything blurred into oblivion by shadows, makes me wanna scream :) I'd also like to see a way for the crop circle image to get integrated into the top banner gradient thingy. Whatever we do with the crop circle, please no more giant images of wheat crop circles ... Catalyst shouldn't be an alien framework from outer space :) --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
Quoting Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The other proposed layouts are making fundamental mistakes regarding color scheme choice and/or distribution of elements. I'm not a professional web designer but a blue box with a thick light green frame below a dark red header and everything blurred into oblivion by shadows, makes me wanna scream :) I couldn't resist it ... Here's something I whipped up in the last hour or so: http://www.funkreich.de/catalystorg.png It's nothing revolutionary. Of course, the content needs quite a bit of work and the graphics are not very polished but you get the idea ... Oh yeah, the logo is too small - I couldn't find a high(er) resolution version (preferably vectorized not as a bitmap) of it ... Shall I continue my effort or is this too little too late? :) --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
* On Wed, Jun 11 2008, Gabriel Vieira wrote: Hahaha. Nice! I didn't see that. On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Devin Austin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Kieren Diment [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12 Jun 2008, at 07:23, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: * Matt S Trout [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-06-11 22:05]: Just so you know, it's completely impossible to follow the flow of the discussion when you top-post on top of 5 other mails. If you comment inline, and edit out the posts that you aren't replying to, it's much easier to follow. Regards, Jonathan Rockway -- print just = another = perl = hacker = if $,=$ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 09:48:55AM +0200, Tobias Kremer wrote: I don't want to sound rude but I don't like any of the proposed designs. To be honest, from a stilistic point of view they all look worse than the current Catalyst frontpage. They all pale in comparison to nearly EVERY other MVC framework's web site. Look at djangoproject.com, cakephp.org, symfony-project.org, even rubyonrails.org with its simplistic approach is much more attractive. No offense, but if this is a glimpse at the future of catalyst.perl.org I'm seriously worried about the framework's future. This is how to NOT attract new users. the django one makes my eyes cross, the cake one makes my eyes bleed, the symfony one is ok but clashes and I like the rails one mostly although it feels like a targeted advertising site rather than a project web site (not necessarily a bad thing but always makes me twitch a little). Once again, sorry for being so negative but this just shows how much I care about Catalyst gaining more attention. Enough to say you hate them all but not enough to try and say why. So it's subjective - the whole point of this was to provide -feedback- so the designers could understand what people did and didn't like. Telling us you'd be worried about Catalyst's future if we used any without a single bit of constructive criticism is ... well, frankly, completely useless for anything except insulting the designers who were kind enough to create mockups for us. I am however, much appreciative that you've provided an example of what you think is better - perhaps you could include an explanation of why you think it's better, though? The point here is I'm presenting -first- -drafts- of ideas. +1/-1 can wait until the final designs are done. -- Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project? Technical Directorhttp://www.shadowcat.co.uk/catalyst/ Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Want a managed development or deployment platform? http://chainsawblues.vox.com/http://www.shadowcat.co.uk/servers/ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
So it's subjective - the whole point of this was to provide -feedback- so the designers could understand what people did and didn't like. Telling us you'd be worried about Catalyst's future if we used any without a single bit of constructive criticism is ... well, frankly, completely useless for anything except insulting the designers who were kind enough to create mockups for us. Point taken! I didn't mean to insult anyone! I'm sorry if that was the impression I gave. I find it highly problematic and cumbersome to discuss layouts from a graphical point of view. One can argue about content, navigation, overall structure and other logical things but often the pure design aesthetics just can't be put into words. It's an emotional thing, thus my purely emotional response ;-) I'll will however try my best to provide some constructive criticism: (1) http://www.browsing.co.uk/cat If I had to chose one of the proposals it definitely would be this one. With some more polishing it could end up quite nice. (2) http://agaton.scsys.co.uk/~matthewt/catsite/cat_mock_web_001.png I really don't like the mustard color scheme which moreover doesn't work together with the red catalyst logo. The picture takes up way too much screen real estate. (3) http://ion0.com/hx/cat/new-version-2-26.jpg (4) http://ion0.com/hx/cat/catalystSiteDesign3.jpg Too blurry, too much clumsy shadowing and glowing. Too many colors in (4) that don't work together well. (5) http://agaton.scsys.co.uk/~matthewt/catsite/catsite-Penfold.pdf Way too simplistic. Fonts are too big. I am however, much appreciative that you've provided an example of what you think is better - perhaps you could include an explanation of why you think it's better, though? The point here is I'm presenting -first- -drafts- of ideas. +1/-1 can wait until the final designs are done. Do you mean the other framework websites or my own proposal? --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 05:00:04PM +0200, Tobias Kremer wrote: Point taken! I didn't mean to insult anyone! I'm sorry if that was the impression I gave. Either way it's now corrected :) I find it highly problematic and cumbersome to discuss layouts from a graphical point of view. One can argue about content, navigation, overall structure and other logical things but often the pure design aesthetics just can't be put into words. It's an emotional thing, thus my purely emotional response ;-) I know, but I figure designers are used to interpreting people's best attempts at putting their feelings into words which makes it worth trying. I'll will however try my best to provide some constructive criticism: (1) http://www.browsing.co.uk/cat If I had to chose one of the proposals it definitely would be this one. With some more polishing it could end up quite nice. (2) http://agaton.scsys.co.uk/~matthewt/catsite/cat_mock_web_001.png I really don't like the mustard color scheme which moreover doesn't work together with the red catalyst logo. The picture takes up way too much screen real estate. (3) http://ion0.com/hx/cat/new-version-2-26.jpg (4) http://ion0.com/hx/cat/catalystSiteDesign3.jpg Too blurry, too much clumsy shadowing and glowing. Too many colors in (4) that don't work together well. (5) http://agaton.scsys.co.uk/~matthewt/catsite/catsite-Penfold.pdf Way too simplistic. Fonts are too big. I am however, much appreciative that you've provided an example of what you think is better - perhaps you could include an explanation of why you think it's better, though? The point here is I'm presenting -first- -drafts- of ideas. +1/-1 can wait until the final designs are done. Do you mean the other framework websites or my own proposal? I was thinking about yours but can I get away with asking for all of the above? Given myself and kieren both find most of the other sites objectionable it'd be nice to see why you prefer them. -- Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project? Technical Directorhttp://www.shadowcat.co.uk/catalyst/ Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Want a managed development or deployment platform? http://chainsawblues.vox.com/http://www.shadowcat.co.uk/servers/ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
Matt S Trout wrote: I was thinking about yours but can I get away with asking for all of the above? Given myself and kieren both find most of the other sites objectionable it'd be nice to see why you prefer them. I think you're not the target audience that those sites are trying to reach. As someone else pointed out, those sites are designed to appeal to the bosses who sign off on the decisions as much, if not not more so, than the developers who work with the framework. You, or this list, needs to decide who the audience for the catalyst site is. If it's trying to persuade developers and management to switch to Catalyst then it needs to appeal to those people. By your very position you are in neither of those two groups so perhaps not in a good position to decide what would appeal to them :-) obias's design is good if somewhat shamelessly derivative. That's a complement really as he's trying to speak the visual language that many people will expect to see. BTW - I heartily recommend Web ReDesign: Workflow that Works (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Web-Redesign-Workflow-Voices-Matter/dp/0735714339/) Form follows function, almost always :-) S. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
On 12-Jun-08, at 8:12 AM, Matt S Trout wrote: On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 09:48:55AM +0200, Tobias Kremer wrote: Once again, sorry for being so negative but this just shows how much I care about Catalyst gaining more attention. Enough to say you hate them all but not enough to try and say why. So it's subjective - the whole point of this was to provide - feedback- so the designers could understand what people did and didn't like. Telling us you'd be worried about Catalyst's future if we used any without a single bit of constructive criticism is ... well, frankly, completely useless for anything except insulting the designers who were kind enough to create mockups for us. I don't believe it has to be as subjective as it currently is. Sure, at the end of the day, colour palette choices, specific design techniques (rounded corners? square corners?) are things that fall into the realm of subjectivity. But I agree 100% with Simon's position that there hasn't yet been an agreed-upon *standard* of judgement that we can all use specifically so that the design process doesn't have to be purely subjective. From his email: On 12-Jun-08, at 2:40 AM, Simon Wilcox wrote: IMO, the three fundamental questions that need to be asked and answered before you get anywhere near a visual design are: 1. Who is the audience ? 2. What information/resources do they need ? 3. How do we get them to that information as quickly and as simply as possible ? There should be some discussion of what is the point of a Catalyst web site at all before we all try to measure and judge web mockups with no common base of reference or comparison. Let's treat it like any other project, and put together an informal but thought-out bullet pointed RFP for the design process. I propose something along the lines of answering the question: Why do we want a Catalyst framework web site? Why not just leave it on CPAN and the mailing lists? IMHO, if it's just for communicating to other Perl devs, CPAN + mailing lists would be enough. So assuming it's supposed to do more than that, how about: # The Catalyst Web Site # *Goals:* 1. Should communicate the active ongoing development of a stable, enterprise-deployed web framework; 2. Should communicate the stability and utility in using Perl as a development language for web projects; 3. Should communicate the operability of Catalyst in different server frameworks (Apache, lighttpd, fastCGI, etc.) and operating systems (*nix, *BSD, Windows, Mac OS X, etc.) 4. Should entice programmers of different languages to give it a try (would need some specific merits as to why it's worth the time investment to try it out) 5. Should entice Perl programmers that currently use different frameworks to consider Catalyst for their next project (would need some specific comparisons vs. other Perl frameworks as to why it's worth the time investment to try out) 6. Should have supporting links / documentation to large sites or big names (as best we can) to demonstrate the stability and enterprise- ready nature of Catalyst to non-programming stakeholders. 7. Should communicate to existing Catalyst users with current version information, release notes, links to download, mailing lists, SVN repo information, etc. 8. Should communicate to both novice Catalyst and expert Catalyst users (perhaps short articles? How to use Moose?, How to deploy Log4Perl?, How to write your first Controller? -- as beginner examples) -- a place for Recent Articles on the home page would be a good way to pull visitors into the site. 9. The wealth of modules for Catalyst and on CPAN in general should be emphasized, with key pointers on particularly often-used and powerful modules (the whole Cat::*::Authentication and Authorization ones; how to do REST stuff to communicate with your existing corporate web services; the MIME:: and Mail:: libraries for not having to re-invent the wheel; etc. etc.) 10. Should reach out to the community (including commercial entities!!) and help them promote their Catalyst offerings, to demonstrate the presence of a Catalyst Ecosystem and not just an isolated framework (i.e., Catalyst-friendly Hosting Providers, the Catalyst book, other appropriate Perl books, companies that specialize in Catalyst development (perhaps by geographic region, etc.) -- even a Catalyst-specific job board would be fantastic to demonstrate the merits of choosing Catalyst as a fundamental framework choice). *Design Requirements:* (different from Goals, more technical, but also needed to establish a common base of measurement) 1. Should be fully standards compliant (CSS, xHTML, etc.) -- should validate with no (or with few known/specific) errors 2. Any javascript should degrade gracefully providing equivalent information access for browsers w/o javascript or with javascript disabled 3. Any image
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
On 12.06.2008, at 20:22, Simon Wilcox wrote: Matt S Trout wrote: I was thinking about yours but can I get away with asking for all of the above? Given myself and kieren both find most of the other sites objectionable it'd be nice to see why you prefer them. I like the 60s/70s style of the cakephp.org site - it's a refreshingly different approach for a website dedicated to something as technical as an MVC framework. Maybe it's just because I'm fond of that style in general :) IMHO the djangoproject.com site has great content delivered the right way. Everything relevant is linked where you'd expect it. I admit that it's a little too greenish on the front page but subsequent pages have a much larger white area which makes them easier on the eye - and they're all seemlessly integrated into the style. After having had a second look at the symfony-project.org site I must say that I don't find it that great anymore. It's a little bit too simple. As I said, this is all highly emotional ... I think you're not the target audience that those sites are trying to reach. As someone else pointed out, those sites are designed to appeal to the bosses who sign off on the decisions as much, if not not more so, than the developers who work with the framework. And that's exactly the point where Perl in general is lacking. We have awesome tools that are presented in a completely unemotional and uninspired way. You, or this list, needs to decide who the audience for the catalyst site is. If it's trying to persuade developers and management to switch to Catalyst then it needs to appeal to those people. By your very position you are in neither of those two groups so perhaps not in a good position to decide what would appeal to them :-) simon++ To my mind the website should be directed first and foremost at users who don't know about Catalyst. You have to make a great first impression. Once you're familiar with Catalyst you will most likely know where to go to find the cure for occuring problems, thus the site is not THAT important to you anymore but should of course have some sort of handy reference/howto/documentation which can be structured in a completely logical way without any of that emotional stuff getting in the way :) obias's design is good if somewhat shamelessly derivative. That's a complement really as he's trying to speak the visual language that many people will expect to see. ... that was exactly my intention :) --Tobias ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
My vote is for the crop circle one. I REALLY like that one. But incorporate the Chuck Norris title into it :-) On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 3:27 PM, Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12.06.2008, at 22:43, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: * Tobias Kremer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-06-12 13:00]: I couldn't resist it ... Here's something I whipped up in the last hour or so: http://www.funkreich.de/catalystorg.png Shall I continue my effort or is this too little too late? :) I like it a lot, with the exception of the brownish red that Thanks! dominates the top of the page: it clashes with the Cat logo colours. As you said, there is also a bunch of changes that should be made, but I think the direction is good. Yes, after sending the mail, I checked my mockup on another monitor which indeed revealed a more brownish tone than I originally intended. Guess I'll have to check my color profile ... :) Main issue on the page itself: the left column of the footer needs to be the main content on the home page. The About blurb is too long, and I'm ambivalent about the Success Stories. The homepage needs to be targetted at people who know nothing about Catalyst and it needs to show how to get answers to three main questions (and answer them super briefly itself): I highly appreciate your suggestions and will try to incorporate them in future versions. --Tobias___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/ -- Devin Austin http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?326568/hosting.html - Host with DreamHost! ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
I like it for the mere fact that in the title it says Chuck Norris's Framework :-) On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Kieren Diment [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12 Jun 2008, at 07:23, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote: * Matt S Trout [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-06-11 22:05]: (1) http://www.browsing.co.uk/cat This is the one I would pick, even though it is bland. It looks like any other current site. But within the current line-up I would consider that a strength… I vaguely wonder about taking the crop circle image from number 2, making it grayscale to get rid of the green-brown-pastel pallete and integrating it with design 1. I really like the image, but it doesn't quite work from there. Secondly, on this display for number 1 I need to horizontal scroll on a 1024X768 display. So it needs a tweak so that it will work on *my* display. You'll find some dev rigs at 1024X768, but very few below this. I'm unsure of 3 and 4. 5 I like, but I don't know how it would work for a page design containing lots of snippets of information. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/ -- Devin Austin http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?326568/hosting.html - Host with DreamHost! ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] Re: Catalyst site design drafts feedback thread
(1) http://www.browsing.co.uk/cat This is the one I would pick, even though it is bland. It looks like any other current site. But within the current line-up I would consider that a strength… I am well aware of this - the top 'tempter' paragraph is way too ugly and on this monitor makes the text pretty difficult to read, but I was on a too tight a schedule to do anything about this. The bottom half of the page has had very little time spent on it. Remember, the only page elements which will appear on all pages are the toolbar ribbons and logo, so are important to get right. The second ribbon is a sub menu as you mouse-over the top main menu sections, so we should have plenty of expansion in that area for the future. I'll have the layout looked over by a *real designer* for the second draft. Secondly, on this display for number 1 I need to horizontal scroll on a 1024X768 display. So it needs a tweak so that it will work on *my* display. You'll find some dev rigs at 1024X768, but very few below this. Layout would be fluid in final. These days I find working in CSS/XHTML a faster wireframe technique than any graphical counterpart. Thank you all for your feedback, Simon. -- Simon Elliott [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
