Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Jacob Keller]

Can you kill the lights? Kill the engine? Kill a buzz? And did you know
kill means river in Dutch, I think it is? Lots of kills in upstate NY,
where I was young and easy under the apple boughs.

I would suggest, generally, some small molecule dependent protein to add to
the genome (recombinase maybe?) Maybe it could be light dependent, then we
would show the former US president's genius and foresight.

On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 2:17 PM Tim Gruene  wrote:

> Dear Jacob,
>
> you cannot kill a virus. It is not alive, but a complex chemical
> compound that interferes with the chemistry of the host. So why don't
> you work on the part of your conept over the week-end and present the
> concept?
>
> Cheers,
> Tim
>
>
> On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:55:32 -0500 Jacob Keller
>  wrote:
>
> > I don't think seeing the big picture resolves, or even addresses, the
> > question of possibly using a live vaccine. Some big-picture
> > considerations favor each side.
> >
> > The concern of mutation is a grave one, and an unknown. I would point
> > out, however, that the same considerations apply to the wild virus
> > currently scourging the planet (well, and every other virus currently
> > slinking around the biome). The distinction would be, I guess, that
> > we would be actively contributing in some way. On the other hand,
> > maybe being passive is like not throwing a rope to a drowning man?
> >
> > Maybe having a "v-day" would address this: introduce the
> > virus-vaccine at well-chosen locations, aka super-spreader events,
> > which, like well-placed demolition dynamite, would cause a "flash
> > pan-infection." Funnily, this would require all of the pandemic rules
> > to be turned on their heads! Presumably this generates herd immunity
> > within a couple of weeks, as well as its fair share of adverse
> > reactions and deaths. As a safety measure, have two orthogonal
> > chemical kill switches based on plentiful inexpensive well-tolerated
> > compounds, say a vitamin or pesticide (yes, pesticide, that stuff
> > that's always sprayed all over your food). Use those to quench the
> > vaccine before mutation, say 6-8 wks. Then, back to normal life, and
> > start honing similar tools for coming pandemics, a "holohomoimmune
> > system."
> >
> > Here's a question to the informed-consent hawks: would exposing
> > everybody to the virus while providing two compounds to block
> > completely the effects be considered a valid opt-in/out? Or what if
> > the default was switched, such that both compounds were required for
> > infection, and therefore one had to actively opt in?
> >
> > I don't know--it seems that many of the objections to the idea are
> > based on the bioethical concept "first do no harm," but that
> > principle is not necessarily adopted in all cases.
> >
> > One of the best things I learned in med school:
> >
> > Medicine is, fundamentally, "uncertainty management:"
> >
> > there are almost never any certainties in medicine, and one has to
> > use a Bayesian framework and a few bioethical principles to figure
> > out what to do next.
> >
> > Anyway, rest assured, I have not yet ordered the primers for creating
> > such a virus-vaccine...
> >
> > All the best, and have a good weekend everyone,
> >
> > Jacob
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 5:54 AM Robbie Joosten
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Tim,
> > >
> > > Very good points. The big picture is hard to grasp and we end up
> > > taking political choices rather than anything else. I'm very glad
> > > that we can outsource these choices to others every four year here.
> > >
> > > Lockdowns may save lives in the here and now, but the global
> > > economic damage makes life for others much harder to a point that
> > > it may actually kill them. Economic decline in the First World may
> > > be something with which that we can deal but, like viruses, it
> > > blows over to other parts of the world where economic growth is the
> > > real life saver. Does the prolonging of a reasonably measurable
> > > number well-lived lives in the West outweigh the extinguishing of a
> > > hard-to-assess number of much younger lives in the rest of the
> > > world? I'm glad I don't have to make that call.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Robbie
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: CCP4 bulletin board  On Behalf Of Tim
> > > > Gruene
> > > > Sent: Friday, Fe

Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Tim Gruene]

Dear Jacob,

you cannot kill a virus. It is not alive, but a complex chemical
compound that interferes with the chemistry of the host. So why don't
you work on the part of your conept over the week-end and present the
concept?

Cheers,
Tim


On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:55:32 -0500 Jacob Keller
 wrote:

> I don't think seeing the big picture resolves, or even addresses, the
> question of possibly using a live vaccine. Some big-picture
> considerations favor each side.
> 
> The concern of mutation is a grave one, and an unknown. I would point
> out, however, that the same considerations apply to the wild virus
> currently scourging the planet (well, and every other virus currently
> slinking around the biome). The distinction would be, I guess, that
> we would be actively contributing in some way. On the other hand,
> maybe being passive is like not throwing a rope to a drowning man?
> 
> Maybe having a "v-day" would address this: introduce the
> virus-vaccine at well-chosen locations, aka super-spreader events,
> which, like well-placed demolition dynamite, would cause a "flash
> pan-infection." Funnily, this would require all of the pandemic rules
> to be turned on their heads! Presumably this generates herd immunity
> within a couple of weeks, as well as its fair share of adverse
> reactions and deaths. As a safety measure, have two orthogonal
> chemical kill switches based on plentiful inexpensive well-tolerated
> compounds, say a vitamin or pesticide (yes, pesticide, that stuff
> that's always sprayed all over your food). Use those to quench the
> vaccine before mutation, say 6-8 wks. Then, back to normal life, and
> start honing similar tools for coming pandemics, a "holohomoimmune
> system."
> 
> Here's a question to the informed-consent hawks: would exposing
> everybody to the virus while providing two compounds to block
> completely the effects be considered a valid opt-in/out? Or what if
> the default was switched, such that both compounds were required for
> infection, and therefore one had to actively opt in?
> 
> I don't know--it seems that many of the objections to the idea are
> based on the bioethical concept "first do no harm," but that
> principle is not necessarily adopted in all cases.
> 
> One of the best things I learned in med school:
> 
> Medicine is, fundamentally, "uncertainty management:"
> 
> there are almost never any certainties in medicine, and one has to
> use a Bayesian framework and a few bioethical principles to figure
> out what to do next.
> 
> Anyway, rest assured, I have not yet ordered the primers for creating
> such a virus-vaccine...
> 
> All the best, and have a good weekend everyone,
> 
> Jacob
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 5:54 AM Robbie Joosten
>  wrote:
> 
> > Hi Tim,
> >
> > Very good points. The big picture is hard to grasp and we end up
> > taking political choices rather than anything else. I'm very glad
> > that we can outsource these choices to others every four year here.
> >
> > Lockdowns may save lives in the here and now, but the global
> > economic damage makes life for others much harder to a point that
> > it may actually kill them. Economic decline in the First World may
> > be something with which that we can deal but, like viruses, it
> > blows over to other parts of the world where economic growth is the
> > real life saver. Does the prolonging of a reasonably measurable
> > number well-lived lives in the West outweigh the extinguishing of a
> > hard-to-assess number of much younger lives in the rest of the
> > world? I'm glad I don't have to make that call.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Robbie
> >  
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: CCP4 bulletin board  On Behalf Of Tim
> > > Gruene
> > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 09:33
> > > To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> > > Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"
> > >
> > > Hi Jessica,
> > >
> > > one comment: death cannot be prevented. It is a certainty as soon
> > > as you are born (well, 9 months before).
> > >
> > > While this seems an obvious subtlety, many of the current
> > > measures seems to be influenced by the (probably unconscious)
> > > belief one can defeat  
> > death.  
> > > We can only reduce the risk to die at a certain moment and of a
> > > certain cause.
> > >
> > > The example of rabbits in Australia also illustrates how simple
> > > minded humans generally are: we focus on one thing, but usually
> > > fail to take a  
> > l

Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Jacob Keller]

I don't think seeing the big picture resolves, or even addresses, the
question of possibly using a live vaccine. Some big-picture considerations
favor each side.

The concern of mutation is a grave one, and an unknown. I would point out,
however, that the same considerations apply to the wild virus currently
scourging the planet (well, and every other virus currently slinking around
the biome). The distinction would be, I guess, that we would be actively
contributing in some way. On the other hand, maybe being passive is like
not throwing a rope to a drowning man?

Maybe having a "v-day" would address this: introduce the virus-vaccine at
well-chosen locations, aka super-spreader events, which, like well-placed
demolition dynamite, would cause a "flash pan-infection." Funnily, this
would require all of the pandemic rules to be turned on their heads!
Presumably this generates herd immunity within a couple of weeks, as well
as its fair share of adverse reactions and deaths. As a safety measure,
have two orthogonal chemical kill switches based on plentiful inexpensive
well-tolerated compounds, say a vitamin or pesticide (yes, pesticide, that
stuff that's always sprayed all over your food). Use those to quench the
vaccine before mutation, say 6-8 wks. Then, back to normal life, and start
honing similar tools for coming pandemics, a "holohomoimmune system."

Here's a question to the informed-consent hawks: would exposing everybody
to the virus while providing two compounds to block completely the effects
be considered a valid opt-in/out? Or what if the default was switched, such
that both compounds were required for infection, and therefore one had to
actively opt in?

I don't know--it seems that many of the objections to the idea are based on
the bioethical concept "first do no harm," but that principle is not
necessarily adopted in all cases.

One of the best things I learned in med school:

Medicine is, fundamentally, "uncertainty management:"

there are almost never any certainties in medicine, and one has to use a
Bayesian framework and a few bioethical principles to figure out what to do
next.

Anyway, rest assured, I have not yet ordered the primers for creating such
a virus-vaccine...

All the best, and have a good weekend everyone,

Jacob



On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 5:54 AM Robbie Joosten 
wrote:

> Hi Tim,
>
> Very good points. The big picture is hard to grasp and we end up taking
> political choices rather than anything else. I'm very glad that we can
> outsource these choices to others every four year here.
>
> Lockdowns may save lives in the here and now, but the global economic
> damage makes life for others much harder to a point that it may actually
> kill them. Economic decline in the First World may be something with which
> that we can deal but, like viruses, it blows over to other parts of the
> world where economic growth is the real life saver. Does the prolonging of
> a reasonably measurable number well-lived lives in the West outweigh the
> extinguishing of a hard-to-assess number of much younger lives in the rest
> of the world? I'm glad I don't have to make that call.
>
> Cheers,
> Robbie
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: CCP4 bulletin board  On Behalf Of Tim
> > Gruene
> > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 09:33
> > To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> > Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"
> >
> > Hi Jessica,
> >
> > one comment: death cannot be prevented. It is a certainty as soon as you
> > are born (well, 9 months before).
> >
> > While this seems an obvious subtlety, many of the current measures seems
> > to be influenced by the (probably unconscious) belief one can defeat
> death.
> > We can only reduce the risk to die at a certain moment and of a certain
> > cause.
> >
> > The example of rabbits in Australia also illustrates how simple minded
> > humans generally are: we focus on one thing, but usually fail to take a
> larger
> > picture into account.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 08:16:59 -0800 Jessica Bruhn
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > There have been some really excellent points raised by others
> > > (informed consent, feasibility, etc), but I would like to share a
> > > story about another time humans tried to release a virus on a wild
> > > population in order to further an arguably noble goal:
> > >
> > > In the 1850s European rabbits were introduced in Australia for sport
> > > hunting. They quickly did what bunnies do and started to become a real
> > > problem. In the 1950s, scientists decided to introduce myxoma vir

Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Mike S]

Since we've already gone down this rabbit hole (pun intended), there's been
quite a bit written in the last year about the 'value of a statistical
life' and pandemic insurance.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/03/27/how-economists-calculate-the-costs-and-benefits-of-covid-19-lockdowns/?sh=2f2e73046f63

A few companies tried to sell pandemic insurance prior to 2019, but no one
thought it was worth the cost.
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2020/04/03/563224.htm

Sorry to reduce the S/N ratio on CCP4BB - I blame pandemic fatigue.

Best,
Mike

On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 6:47 AM Eleanor Dodson <
176a9d5ebad7-dmarc-requ...@jiscmail.ac.uk> wrote:

> I have been following this discussion with interest, without having any
> informed opinions to throw in..
> (Except as the daughter of an Australian farmer I still see myxomatosis as
> a blessing - my father said in his youth to make a living he spent 10months
> of every year trying to control the rabbit population, and 2 months on
> proper farming - if he didnt there would be no pasture at all, and the
> infection reduced the rabbit population to something manageable.)
>
> But it is a challenging morality - is protecting my aged life worth
> creating n million unemployed, etc,etc?
> However it is human instinct to try to protect oneself and one's community
> and that is what we geared up to do, and woe betide any politician who
> suggests otherwise,
>
> Roll on herd immunity, mass vaccination and some return to proper concerns
> like Brexit!
>
> Eleanor
>
> On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 at 10:54, Robbie Joosten 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tim,
>>
>> Very good points. The big picture is hard to grasp and we end up taking
>> political choices rather than anything else. I'm very glad that we can
>> outsource these choices to others every four year here.
>>
>> Lockdowns may save lives in the here and now, but the global economic
>> damage makes life for others much harder to a point that it may actually
>> kill them. Economic decline in the First World may be something with which
>> that we can deal but, like viruses, it blows over to other parts of the
>> world where economic growth is the real life saver. Does the prolonging of
>> a reasonably measurable number well-lived lives in the West outweigh the
>> extinguishing of a hard-to-assess number of much younger lives in the rest
>> of the world? I'm glad I don't have to make that call.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Robbie
>>
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: CCP4 bulletin board  On Behalf Of Tim
>> > Gruene
>> > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 09:33
>> > To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
>> > Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"
>> >
>> > Hi Jessica,
>> >
>> > one comment: death cannot be prevented. It is a certainty as soon as you
>> > are born (well, 9 months before).
>> >
>> > While this seems an obvious subtlety, many of the current measures seems
>> > to be influenced by the (probably unconscious) belief one can defeat
>> death.
>> > We can only reduce the risk to die at a certain moment and of a certain
>> > cause.
>> >
>> > The example of rabbits in Australia also illustrates how simple minded
>> > humans generally are: we focus on one thing, but usually fail to take a
>> larger
>> > picture into account.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Tim
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 08:16:59 -0800 Jessica Bruhn
>> >  wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hello,
>> > >
>> > > There have been some really excellent points raised by others
>> > > (informed consent, feasibility, etc), but I would like to share a
>> > > story about another time humans tried to release a virus on a wild
>> > > population in order to further an arguably noble goal:
>> > >
>> > > In the 1850s European rabbits were introduced in Australia for sport
>> > > hunting. They quickly did what bunnies do and started to become a real
>> > > problem. In the 1950s, scientists decided to introduce myxoma virus to
>> > > Australia, which is 90-99% fatal for European rabbits, but less lethal
>> > > for the native rabbits. They intentionally released this virus and in
>> > > the first year the mortality rate was 99.8% for the European rabbits.
>> > > Yay, right??? Unfortunately, in the subsequent year the mortality rate
>> > > fell to 25% and steadily continued to fall until it was lower than the
>> > > reprodu

Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Eleanor Dodson]

I have been following this discussion with interest, without having any
informed opinions to throw in..
(Except as the daughter of an Australian farmer I still see myxomatosis as
a blessing - my father said in his youth to make a living he spent 10months
of every year trying to control the rabbit population, and 2 months on
proper farming - if he didnt there would be no pasture at all, and the
infection reduced the rabbit population to something manageable.)

But it is a challenging morality - is protecting my aged life worth
creating n million unemployed, etc,etc?
However it is human instinct to try to protect oneself and one's community
and that is what we geared up to do, and woe betide any politician who
suggests otherwise,

Roll on herd immunity, mass vaccination and some return to proper concerns
like Brexit!

Eleanor

On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 at 10:54, Robbie Joosten 
wrote:

> Hi Tim,
>
> Very good points. The big picture is hard to grasp and we end up taking
> political choices rather than anything else. I'm very glad that we can
> outsource these choices to others every four year here.
>
> Lockdowns may save lives in the here and now, but the global economic
> damage makes life for others much harder to a point that it may actually
> kill them. Economic decline in the First World may be something with which
> that we can deal but, like viruses, it blows over to other parts of the
> world where economic growth is the real life saver. Does the prolonging of
> a reasonably measurable number well-lived lives in the West outweigh the
> extinguishing of a hard-to-assess number of much younger lives in the rest
> of the world? I'm glad I don't have to make that call.
>
> Cheers,
> Robbie
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: CCP4 bulletin board  On Behalf Of Tim
> > Gruene
> > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 09:33
> > To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> > Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"
> >
> > Hi Jessica,
> >
> > one comment: death cannot be prevented. It is a certainty as soon as you
> > are born (well, 9 months before).
> >
> > While this seems an obvious subtlety, many of the current measures seems
> > to be influenced by the (probably unconscious) belief one can defeat
> death.
> > We can only reduce the risk to die at a certain moment and of a certain
> > cause.
> >
> > The example of rabbits in Australia also illustrates how simple minded
> > humans generally are: we focus on one thing, but usually fail to take a
> larger
> > picture into account.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 08:16:59 -0800 Jessica Bruhn
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > There have been some really excellent points raised by others
> > > (informed consent, feasibility, etc), but I would like to share a
> > > story about another time humans tried to release a virus on a wild
> > > population in order to further an arguably noble goal:
> > >
> > > In the 1850s European rabbits were introduced in Australia for sport
> > > hunting. They quickly did what bunnies do and started to become a real
> > > problem. In the 1950s, scientists decided to introduce myxoma virus to
> > > Australia, which is 90-99% fatal for European rabbits, but less lethal
> > > for the native rabbits. They intentionally released this virus and in
> > > the first year the mortality rate was 99.8% for the European rabbits.
> > > Yay, right??? Unfortunately, in the subsequent year the mortality rate
> > > fell to 25% and steadily continued to fall until it was lower than the
> > > reproductive rate of the European rabbits. The host-virus interaction
> > > played itself out: less-virulent viruses arose and resistant rabbits
> > > were selected for.
> > >
> > > To me it seems unwise to assume a replication competent virus
> > > (engineered or not) would refrain from mutating and adapting upon
> > > release, especially over the time course that would be required to
> > > infect all 7 billion+ humans on this planet. To me, I feel our options
> > > are (1) reach herd immunity through natural infection and accept the
> > > preventable deaths of many millions of people or (2) continue with
> > > non-pharmaceutical interventions (mask wearing, distancing, etc) until
> > > we can vaccinate enough people to reach herd immunity and hopefully by
> > > that time we have robust testing and treatment options available for
> > > those who continue to fall ill after we reach herd immunity. We as
> > > h

Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Robbie Joosten]

Hi Tim,

Very good points. The big picture is hard to grasp and we end up taking 
political choices rather than anything else. I'm very glad that we can 
outsource these choices to others every four year here.

Lockdowns may save lives in the here and now, but the global economic damage 
makes life for others much harder to a point that it may actually kill them. 
Economic decline in the First World may be something with which that we can 
deal but, like viruses, it blows over to other parts of the world where 
economic growth is the real life saver. Does the prolonging of a reasonably 
measurable number well-lived lives in the West outweigh the extinguishing of a 
hard-to-assess number of much younger lives in the rest of the world? I'm glad 
I don't have to make that call.

Cheers,
Robbie

> -Original Message-
> From: CCP4 bulletin board  On Behalf Of Tim
> Gruene
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 09:33
> To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"
> 
> Hi Jessica,
> 
> one comment: death cannot be prevented. It is a certainty as soon as you
> are born (well, 9 months before).
> 
> While this seems an obvious subtlety, many of the current measures seems
> to be influenced by the (probably unconscious) belief one can defeat death.
> We can only reduce the risk to die at a certain moment and of a certain
> cause.
> 
> The example of rabbits in Australia also illustrates how simple minded
> humans generally are: we focus on one thing, but usually fail to take a larger
> picture into account.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tim
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 08:16:59 -0800 Jessica Bruhn
>  wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> > There have been some really excellent points raised by others
> > (informed consent, feasibility, etc), but I would like to share a
> > story about another time humans tried to release a virus on a wild
> > population in order to further an arguably noble goal:
> >
> > In the 1850s European rabbits were introduced in Australia for sport
> > hunting. They quickly did what bunnies do and started to become a real
> > problem. In the 1950s, scientists decided to introduce myxoma virus to
> > Australia, which is 90-99% fatal for European rabbits, but less lethal
> > for the native rabbits. They intentionally released this virus and in
> > the first year the mortality rate was 99.8% for the European rabbits.
> > Yay, right??? Unfortunately, in the subsequent year the mortality rate
> > fell to 25% and steadily continued to fall until it was lower than the
> > reproductive rate of the European rabbits. The host-virus interaction
> > played itself out: less-virulent viruses arose and resistant rabbits
> > were selected for.
> >
> > To me it seems unwise to assume a replication competent virus
> > (engineered or not) would refrain from mutating and adapting upon
> > release, especially over the time course that would be required to
> > infect all 7 billion+ humans on this planet. To me, I feel our options
> > are (1) reach herd immunity through natural infection and accept the
> > preventable deaths of many millions of people or (2) continue with
> > non-pharmaceutical interventions (mask wearing, distancing, etc) until
> > we can vaccinate enough people to reach herd immunity and hopefully by
> > that time we have robust testing and treatment options available for
> > those who continue to fall ill after we reach herd immunity. We as
> > humans did something amazing by producing multiple safe and effective
> > vaccines in less than one year, and I would like us to continue trying
> > to save as many lives as possible by employing these vaccines as
> > widely as possible.
> >
> > Anyways, take care. I know the pandemic is hard on all of us.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jessica
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 6:15 AM Patrick Shaw Stewart
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > I agree with those who say that A and B are usually incompatible.
> > >
> > > If we're like
> > > chickens-in-a-barn-that-have-been-infected-with-bird-flu, the virus
> > > very rapidly becomes more virulent (hospital and care-home
> > > infections?).  It's hard for a virus to infect your nose and throat
> > > quickly, and then stop.
> > >
> > > In the medium term the herd will build up some immunity and then
> > > we'll become more like wandering albatrosses: the virus has to keep
> > > us on the move if it's going to get itself near another susceptible
> > > host.
> > >
> > > IMO the way a *respiratory *virus tries to "have its cake and eat

Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Tim Gruene]

Hi Jessica,

one comment: death cannot be prevented. It is a certainty as soon as
you are born (well, 9 months before).

While this seems an obvious subtlety, many of the current measures
seems to be influenced by the (probably unconscious) belief one can
defeat death. We can only reduce the risk to die at a certain moment
and of a certain cause.

The example of rabbits in Australia also illustrates how simple minded
humans generally are: we focus on one thing, but usually fail to take
a larger picture into account.

Cheers,
Tim



On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 08:16:59 -0800 Jessica Bruhn  
wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> There have been some really excellent points raised by others
> (informed consent, feasibility, etc), but I would like to share a
> story about another time humans tried to release a virus on a wild
> population in order to further an arguably noble goal:
> 
> In the 1850s European rabbits were introduced in Australia for sport
> hunting. They quickly did what bunnies do and started to become a real
> problem. In the 1950s, scientists decided to introduce myxoma virus to
> Australia, which is 90-99% fatal for European rabbits, but less
> lethal for the native rabbits. They intentionally released this virus
> and in the first year the mortality rate was 99.8% for the European
> rabbits. Yay, right??? Unfortunately, in the subsequent year the
> mortality rate fell to 25% and steadily continued to fall until it
> was lower than the reproductive rate of the European rabbits. The
> host-virus interaction played itself out: less-virulent viruses arose
> and resistant rabbits were selected for.
> 
> To me it seems unwise to assume a replication competent virus
> (engineered or not) would refrain from mutating and adapting upon
> release, especially over the time course that would be required to
> infect all 7 billion+ humans on this planet. To me, I feel our
> options are (1) reach herd immunity through natural infection and
> accept the preventable deaths of many millions of people or (2)
> continue with non-pharmaceutical interventions (mask wearing,
> distancing, etc) until we can vaccinate enough people to reach herd
> immunity and hopefully by that time we have robust testing and
> treatment options available for those who continue to fall ill after
> we reach herd immunity. We as humans did something amazing by
> producing multiple safe and effective vaccines in less than one year,
> and I would like us to continue trying to save as many lives as
> possible by employing these vaccines as widely as possible.
> 
> Anyways, take care. I know the pandemic is hard on all of us.
> 
> Best regards,
> Jessica
> 
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 6:15 AM Patrick Shaw Stewart
>  wrote:
> 
> > I agree with those who say that A and B are usually incompatible.
> >
> > If we're like
> > chickens-in-a-barn-that-have-been-infected-with-bird-flu, the virus
> > very rapidly becomes more virulent (hospital and care-home
> > infections?).  It's hard for a virus to infect your nose and throat
> > quickly, and then stop.
> >
> > In the medium term the herd will build up some immunity and then
> > we'll become more like wandering albatrosses: the virus has to keep
> > us on the move if it's going to get itself near another susceptible
> > host.
> >
> > IMO the way a *respiratory *virus tries to "have its cake and eat
> > it" - that is, get as much of both A and B as possible - is to
> > develop thermal sensitivity.  I.e. infect nose and throat but keep
> > out of lungs and brain :
> >
> > https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202101.0389/v1
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Patrick
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 9:46 PM Edwin Pozharski
> >  wrote:
> >  
> >> I guess for such vehicle to be "extremely contagious" (or
> >> contagious at all for that matter) it should be capable of rapidly
> >> multiplying inside the host, so that it outruns immune system
> >> mediated destruction for at least some time in order to be present
> >> in high enough concentration to effectively spread via aerosols.
> >> Given the range of immunodeficiencies present in any population,
> >> you are essentially guaranteed to kill at least some people whose
> >> immune system will not be able to cope with rapidly multiplying
> >> virus.  You can theoretically fine tune the lethality of such
> >> virus to make sure that number of people you thus murder will be
> >> less than those that die either in no vaccine or traditional
> >> vaccination scenario, but that would be ethical equivalent of that
> >> modern crypto fascist suggestion that we just have to take it easy
> >> until herd immunity is established, even though few million
> >> grandparents will die in the process while the rest of us enjoy
> >> indoor dining.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:33 PM Jacob Keller
> >>  wrote:
> >>  
> >>> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate
> >>> versions of the Covid virus that would:
> >>>
> >>> A. be extremely contagious and yet
> >>> B. be 

Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Patrick Shaw Stewart]

(Sorry - still off-topic - or not !)

Hi Jessica

There's something called the "transmission-virulence trade-off hypothesis",
which was introduced specifically to explain observations of myxoma virus
virulence in Australia.  What scientists found was that if they introduced
what they called Grade I (ie highly virulent) myxoma strains, they
recovered Grade III strains one or two years later.  But if they introduced
(very mild) Grade IV strains, they also recovered Grade III strains a
little later.  It always ended up as Grade III.  I discussed this in my
preprint - and also in the paper my collaborator and I are now working on !

So probably not a good idea Jacob

Thx Patrick



On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 4:16 PM Jessica Bruhn 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> There have been some really excellent points raised by others (informed
> consent, feasibility, etc), but I would like to share a story about another
> time humans tried to release a virus on a wild population in order to
> further an arguably noble goal:
>
> In the 1850s European rabbits were introduced in Australia for sport
> hunting. They quickly did what bunnies do and started to become a real
> problem. In the 1950s, scientists decided to introduce myxoma virus to
> Australia, which is 90-99% fatal for European rabbits, but less lethal for
> the native rabbits. They intentionally released this virus and in the first
> year the mortality rate was 99.8% for the European rabbits. Yay, right???
> Unfortunately, in the subsequent year the mortality rate fell to 25% and
> steadily continued to fall until it was lower than the reproductive rate of
> the European rabbits. The host-virus interaction played itself out:
> less-virulent viruses arose and resistant rabbits were selected for.
>
> To me it seems unwise to assume a replication competent virus (engineered
> or not) would refrain from mutating and adapting upon release, especially
> over the time course that would be required to infect all 7 billion+ humans
> on this planet. To me, I feel our options are (1) reach herd immunity
> through natural infection and accept the preventable deaths of many
> millions of people or (2) continue with non-pharmaceutical interventions
> (mask wearing, distancing, etc) until we can vaccinate enough people to
> reach herd immunity and hopefully by that time we have robust testing and
> treatment options available for those who continue to fall ill after we
> reach herd immunity. We as humans did something amazing by producing
> multiple safe and effective vaccines in less than one year, and I would
> like us to continue trying to save as many lives as possible by employing
> these vaccines as widely as possible.
>
> Anyways, take care. I know the pandemic is hard on all of us.
>
> Best regards,
> Jessica
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 6:15 AM Patrick Shaw Stewart <
> patr...@douglas.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I agree with those who say that A and B are usually incompatible.
>>
>> If we're like chickens-in-a-barn-that-have-been-infected-with-bird-flu,
>> the virus very rapidly becomes more virulent (hospital and care-home
>> infections?).  It's hard for a virus to infect your nose and throat
>> quickly, and then stop.
>>
>> In the medium term the herd will build up some immunity and then we'll
>> become more like wandering albatrosses: the virus has to keep us on the
>> move if it's going to get itself near another susceptible host.
>>
>> IMO the way a *respiratory *virus tries to "have its cake and eat it" -
>> that is, get as much of both A and B as possible - is to develop thermal
>> sensitivity.  I.e. infect nose and throat but keep out of lungs and brain :
>>
>> https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202101.0389/v1
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Patrick
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 9:46 PM Edwin Pozharski 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I guess for such vehicle to be "extremely contagious" (or contagious at
>>> all for that matter) it should be capable of rapidly multiplying inside the
>>> host, so that it outruns immune system mediated destruction for at least
>>> some time in order to be present in high enough concentration to
>>> effectively spread via aerosols.  Given the range of immunodeficiencies
>>> present in any population, you are essentially guaranteed to kill at least
>>> some people whose immune system will not be able to cope with rapidly
>>> multiplying virus.  You can theoretically fine tune the lethality of such
>>> virus to make sure that number of people you thus murder will be less than
>>> those that die either in no vaccine or traditional vaccination scenario,
>>> but that would be ethical equivalent of that modern crypto fascist
>>> suggestion that we just have to take it easy until herd immunity is
>>> established, even though few million grandparents will die in the process
>>> while the rest of us enjoy indoor dining.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:33 PM Jacob Keller 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of
 the 

Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Jessica Bruhn]

Hello,

There have been some really excellent points raised by others (informed
consent, feasibility, etc), but I would like to share a story about another
time humans tried to release a virus on a wild population in order to
further an arguably noble goal:

In the 1850s European rabbits were introduced in Australia for sport
hunting. They quickly did what bunnies do and started to become a real
problem. In the 1950s, scientists decided to introduce myxoma virus to
Australia, which is 90-99% fatal for European rabbits, but less lethal for
the native rabbits. They intentionally released this virus and in the first
year the mortality rate was 99.8% for the European rabbits. Yay, right???
Unfortunately, in the subsequent year the mortality rate fell to 25% and
steadily continued to fall until it was lower than the reproductive rate of
the European rabbits. The host-virus interaction played itself out:
less-virulent viruses arose and resistant rabbits were selected for.

To me it seems unwise to assume a replication competent virus (engineered
or not) would refrain from mutating and adapting upon release, especially
over the time course that would be required to infect all 7 billion+ humans
on this planet. To me, I feel our options are (1) reach herd immunity
through natural infection and accept the preventable deaths of many
millions of people or (2) continue with non-pharmaceutical interventions
(mask wearing, distancing, etc) until we can vaccinate enough people to
reach herd immunity and hopefully by that time we have robust testing and
treatment options available for those who continue to fall ill after we
reach herd immunity. We as humans did something amazing by producing
multiple safe and effective vaccines in less than one year, and I would
like us to continue trying to save as many lives as possible by employing
these vaccines as widely as possible.

Anyways, take care. I know the pandemic is hard on all of us.

Best regards,
Jessica

On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 6:15 AM Patrick Shaw Stewart 
wrote:

> I agree with those who say that A and B are usually incompatible.
>
> If we're like chickens-in-a-barn-that-have-been-infected-with-bird-flu,
> the virus very rapidly becomes more virulent (hospital and care-home
> infections?).  It's hard for a virus to infect your nose and throat
> quickly, and then stop.
>
> In the medium term the herd will build up some immunity and then we'll
> become more like wandering albatrosses: the virus has to keep us on the
> move if it's going to get itself near another susceptible host.
>
> IMO the way a *respiratory *virus tries to "have its cake and eat it" -
> that is, get as much of both A and B as possible - is to develop thermal
> sensitivity.  I.e. infect nose and throat but keep out of lungs and brain :
>
> https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202101.0389/v1
>
>
>
> Thanks, Patrick
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 9:46 PM Edwin Pozharski 
> wrote:
>
>> I guess for such vehicle to be "extremely contagious" (or contagious at
>> all for that matter) it should be capable of rapidly multiplying inside the
>> host, so that it outruns immune system mediated destruction for at least
>> some time in order to be present in high enough concentration to
>> effectively spread via aerosols.  Given the range of immunodeficiencies
>> present in any population, you are essentially guaranteed to kill at least
>> some people whose immune system will not be able to cope with rapidly
>> multiplying virus.  You can theoretically fine tune the lethality of such
>> virus to make sure that number of people you thus murder will be less than
>> those that die either in no vaccine or traditional vaccination scenario,
>> but that would be ethical equivalent of that modern crypto fascist
>> suggestion that we just have to take it easy until herd immunity is
>> established, even though few million grandparents will die in the process
>> while the rest of us enjoy indoor dining.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:33 PM Jacob Keller 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of
>>> the Covid virus that would:
>>>
>>> A. be extremely contagious and yet
>>> B. be clinically benign, and
>>> C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
>>>
>>> If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
>>> safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is
>>> there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?
>>>
>>> Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
>>>
>>> Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?
>>>
>>> Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
>>>
>>> Jacob
>>> --
>>>
>>> +
>>>
>>> Jacob Pearson Keller
>>>
>>> Assistant Professor
>>>
>>> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
>>>
>>> Uniformed Services University
>>>
>>> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
>>>
>>> Bethesda 

Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Patrick Shaw Stewart]

I agree with those who say that A and B are usually incompatible.

If we're like chickens-in-a-barn-that-have-been-infected-with-bird-flu, the
virus very rapidly becomes more virulent (hospital and care-home
infections?).  It's hard for a virus to infect your nose and throat
quickly, and then stop.

In the medium term the herd will build up some immunity and then we'll
become more like wandering albatrosses: the virus has to keep us on the
move if it's going to get itself near another susceptible host.

IMO the way a *respiratory *virus tries to "have its cake and eat it" -
that is, get as much of both A and B as possible - is to develop thermal
sensitivity.  I.e. infect nose and throat but keep out of lungs and brain :

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202101.0389/v1



Thanks, Patrick


On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 9:46 PM Edwin Pozharski 
wrote:

> I guess for such vehicle to be "extremely contagious" (or contagious at
> all for that matter) it should be capable of rapidly multiplying inside the
> host, so that it outruns immune system mediated destruction for at least
> some time in order to be present in high enough concentration to
> effectively spread via aerosols.  Given the range of immunodeficiencies
> present in any population, you are essentially guaranteed to kill at least
> some people whose immune system will not be able to cope with rapidly
> multiplying virus.  You can theoretically fine tune the lethality of such
> virus to make sure that number of people you thus murder will be less than
> those that die either in no vaccine or traditional vaccination scenario,
> but that would be ethical equivalent of that modern crypto fascist
> suggestion that we just have to take it easy until herd immunity is
> established, even though few million grandparents will die in the process
> while the rest of us enjoy indoor dining.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:33 PM Jacob Keller 
> wrote:
>
>> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of
>> the Covid virus that would:
>>
>> A. be extremely contagious and yet
>> B. be clinically benign, and
>> C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
>>
>> If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
>> safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is
>> there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?
>>
>> Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
>>
>> Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?
>>
>> Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
>>
>> Jacob
>> --
>>
>> +
>>
>> Jacob Pearson Keller
>>
>> Assistant Professor
>>
>> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
>>
>> Uniformed Services University
>>
>> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
>>
>> Bethesda MD 20814
>>
>> jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com
>>
>> Cell: (301)592-7004
>>
>> +
>>
>> --
>>
>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>>
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>


-- 
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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Gerstel, Markus (DLSLtd,RAL,LSCI)]

Dale Tronrud wrote:
> The live form of the polio virus is the closest I know to the vaccination 
> campaign you describe. 

I know something closer - it was called Welchia/Nachi and appeared in 2003
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welchia

This did spark ethics discussions even when in this case human lives weren't 
(directly) at stake. As far as I can tell the consensus ultimately was that 
this is a bad idea, and it was noted that even the most well-intentioned effort 
can and will go wrong.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2009/01/23/267877/why-a-good-worm-may-be-a-bad-idea/

Consent is of course the obvious primary concern. But can you also guarantee 
that your super-virus is clinically benign in everyone? (think: pregnant, 
neonatal, immuno-compromised, hypersensitive) And also: how could you prove 
that when your Phase 1 trial involves... literally everyone?

I'm actually a trained vaccinator now, and we go to great lengths to only 
administer vaccines in very controlled settings. Apart from consent the 
administration is also controlled by a risk assessment regarding sensitivity to 
the vaccine and any of its ingredients, and we also observe people afterwards - 
so that in the rare case they do have an anaphylactoid reaction, vasovagal 
response, panic attack or anything else - immediate help is at hand.
When people do suffer slower side-effects then you might be able to ascribe 
them to the vaccination. In any case you can go straight to the MHRA yellow 
card scheme. In the super-virus case you'd need to test people first. And I was 
under the impression that our health services are already quite busy.

Speaking of side-effects - what side-effects would this campaign cause? And I 
don't mean just the individual/physiological. Think chemtrailers etc. - they 
would have a field day. Trust in medicine would take a nosedive for decades to 
come.

So yeah - let's not do that.

-Markus

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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Harmer, Nicholas]

I'm afraid that the "Kent" variant is also mutating and is likely to pick up 
some of the more challenging mutations. There is already a version circulating 
with the E484 mutation that has a clear impact on the vaccine ("Bristol" 
variant), and another picked up in Scotland that has several changes similar to 
the SA variant.

The UK is sequencing a _lot_ and picking up a lot of changes. Probably the 
message is that if a virus new to humans circulates enough, it's going to 
mutate to find its optimal niche.

Nic

-Original Message-
From: CCP4 bulletin board  On Behalf Of Ethan A Merritt
Sent: 17 February 2021 20:57
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

It may be here already.

For a value of B that includes "no worse than the starting point", the 
so-called "UK variant" currently spreading in the US meets your criteria.  Some 
projections show it displacing other potentially more dangerous variants while 
not not degrading the impact of vaccination and other public health measures.

Are you starting a conspiracy theory that it was the result of a clandestine 
good samaritan molecular biologist?

Ethan

On Wednesday, 17 February 2021 12:39:21 PST Jacob Keller wrote:
> I was under the impression that A,B,C are not strongly or 
> intrinsically coupled, for one, since there are so many varieties of 
> viruses with so much range of infectiousness and clinical severity. False 
> impression?
> 
> B + C = vaccine
> 
> A + B + C = immunosysadmin pandemic updater virus. Patient 0 honors 
> given for each (yearly?) edition to curry political favor.
> 
> JPK
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 3:03 PM Tim Gruene  wrote:
> 
> > Hi Jacob,
> >
> > how do you think this should be possible? In order to infect others, 
> > the virus particle needs to proliferate (that's the only thing it 
> > does). It profilerates by hijacking the machinery of one cell of 
> > your body and turn it into a virus factory. Your body does not like 
> > this abuse and kills the cell, and also tries to kill the virus particles.
> > The virus does not make you sick, it only captures one cell. The 
> > reaction of your body to kick out the virus, and the cell that does 
> > not do it's job anymore, make you sick. A and B are mutually 
> > exclusive. B + C is named vaccine.
> >
> > Best,
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 12:33:09 -0500 Jacob Keller 
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate 
> > > versions of the Covid virus that would:
> > >
> > > A. be extremely contagious and yet B. be clinically benign, and C. 
> > > confer immunity to the original covid virus.
> > >
> > > If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
> > > safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic 
> > > problems? Is there any reason, practically, why this approach 
> > > would not be feasible?
> > >
> > > Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
> > >
> > > Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare 
> > > apocalypse?
> > >
> > > Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
> > >
> > > Jacob
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Tim Gruene
> > Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis Faculty of Chemistry 
> > University of Vienna
> >
> > Phone: +43-1-4277-70202
> >
> > GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A
> >
> 
> 
> 


--
Ethan A Merritt
Biomolecular Structure Center,  K-428 Health Sciences Bldg
MS 357742,   University of Washington, Seattle 98195-7742



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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Bryan Lepore]

Greetings - one assumption of this proposal seems to be that only H. sapiens 
will spread and harbor (?) the one specifically designed virus.

I apologize if this is naive, but what is the basis for a virus staying only in 
one species?

Or, if the specifically designed virus only does nice good healthy sorts of 
things in H. sapiens, and never any things that are really bad in any other 
life forms as we know them, within an indefinite time frame, how precisely will 
this work?

-Bryan W. Lepore


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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Edwin Pozharski]

I guess for such vehicle to be "extremely contagious" (or contagious at all
for that matter) it should be capable of rapidly multiplying inside the
host, so that it outruns immune system mediated destruction for at least
some time in order to be present in high enough concentration to
effectively spread via aerosols.  Given the range of immunodeficiencies
present in any population, you are essentially guaranteed to kill at least
some people whose immune system will not be able to cope with rapidly
multiplying virus.  You can theoretically fine tune the lethality of such
virus to make sure that number of people you thus murder will be less than
those that die either in no vaccine or traditional vaccination scenario,
but that would be ethical equivalent of that modern crypto fascist
suggestion that we just have to take it easy until herd immunity is
established, even though few million grandparents will die in the process
while the rest of us enjoy indoor dining.



On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:33 PM Jacob Keller 
wrote:

> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of the
> Covid virus that would:
>
> A. be extremely contagious and yet
> B. be clinically benign, and
> C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
>
> If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
> safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is
> there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?
>
> Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
>
> Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?
>
> Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
>
> Jacob
> --
>
> +
>
> Jacob Pearson Keller
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
>
> Uniformed Services University
>
> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
>
> Bethesda MD 20814
>
> jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com
>
> Cell: (301)592-7004
>
> +
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>



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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Ethan A Merritt]

It may be here already.

For a value of B that includes "no worse than the starting point",
the so-called "UK variant" currently spreading in the US meets your
criteria.  Some projections show it displacing other potentially
more dangerous variants while not not degrading the impact of 
vaccination and other public health measures.

Are you starting a conspiracy theory that it was the result of
a clandestine good samaritan molecular biologist?

Ethan

On Wednesday, 17 February 2021 12:39:21 PST Jacob Keller wrote:
> I was under the impression that A,B,C are not strongly or intrinsically
> coupled, for one, since there are so many varieties of viruses with so much
> range of infectiousness and clinical severity. False impression?
> 
> B + C = vaccine
> 
> A + B + C = immunosysadmin pandemic updater virus. Patient 0 honors given
> for each (yearly?) edition to curry political favor.
> 
> JPK
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 3:03 PM Tim Gruene  wrote:
> 
> > Hi Jacob,
> >
> > how do you think this should be possible? In order to infect others,
> > the virus particle needs to proliferate (that's the only thing it
> > does). It profilerates by hijacking the machinery of one cell of your
> > body and turn it into a virus factory. Your body does not like this
> > abuse and kills the cell, and also tries to kill the virus particles.
> > The virus does not make you sick, it only captures one cell. The
> > reaction of your body to kick out the virus, and the cell that does not
> > do it's job anymore, make you sick. A and B are mutually exclusive. B +
> > C is named vaccine.
> >
> > Best,
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 12:33:09 -0500 Jacob Keller
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions
> > > of the Covid virus that would:
> > >
> > > A. be extremely contagious and yet
> > > B. be clinically benign, and
> > > C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
> > >
> > > If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
> > > safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic
> > > problems? Is there any reason, practically, why this approach would
> > > not be feasible?
> > >
> > > Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
> > >
> > > Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare
> > > apocalypse?
> > >
> > > Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
> > >
> > > Jacob
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Tim Gruene
> > Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis
> > Faculty of Chemistry
> > University of Vienna
> >
> > Phone: +43-1-4277-70202
> >
> > GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A
> >
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Ethan A Merritt
Biomolecular Structure Center,  K-428 Health Sciences Bldg
MS 357742,   University of Washington, Seattle 98195-7742



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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Jacob Keller]

I was under the impression that A,B,C are not strongly or intrinsically
coupled, for one, since there are so many varieties of viruses with so much
range of infectiousness and clinical severity. False impression?

B + C = vaccine

A + B + C = immunosysadmin pandemic updater virus. Patient 0 honors given
for each (yearly?) edition to curry political favor.

JPK


On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 3:03 PM Tim Gruene  wrote:

> Hi Jacob,
>
> how do you think this should be possible? In order to infect others,
> the virus particle needs to proliferate (that's the only thing it
> does). It profilerates by hijacking the machinery of one cell of your
> body and turn it into a virus factory. Your body does not like this
> abuse and kills the cell, and also tries to kill the virus particles.
> The virus does not make you sick, it only captures one cell. The
> reaction of your body to kick out the virus, and the cell that does not
> do it's job anymore, make you sick. A and B are mutually exclusive. B +
> C is named vaccine.
>
> Best,
> Tim
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 12:33:09 -0500 Jacob Keller
>  wrote:
>
> > It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions
> > of the Covid virus that would:
> >
> > A. be extremely contagious and yet
> > B. be clinically benign, and
> > C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
> >
> > If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
> > safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic
> > problems? Is there any reason, practically, why this approach would
> > not be feasible?
> >
> > Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
> >
> > Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare
> > apocalypse?
> >
> > Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
> >
> > Jacob
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Tim Gruene
> Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis
> Faculty of Chemistry
> University of Vienna
>
> Phone: +43-1-4277-70202
>
> GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A
>


-- 

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com

Cell: (301)592-7004

+



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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Tim Gruene]

Hi Jacob,

how do you think this should be possible? In order to infect others,
the virus particle needs to proliferate (that's the only thing it
does). It profilerates by hijacking the machinery of one cell of your
body and turn it into a virus factory. Your body does not like this
abuse and kills the cell, and also tries to kill the virus particles.
The virus does not make you sick, it only captures one cell. The
reaction of your body to kick out the virus, and the cell that does not
do it's job anymore, make you sick. A and B are mutually exclusive. B +
C is named vaccine.

Best,
Tim


On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 12:33:09 -0500 Jacob Keller
 wrote:

> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions
> of the Covid virus that would:
> 
> A. be extremely contagious and yet
> B. be clinically benign, and
> C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
> 
> If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
> safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic
> problems? Is there any reason, practically, why this approach would
> not be feasible?
> 
> Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
> 
> Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare
> apocalypse?
> 
> Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
> 
> Jacob



-- 
--
Tim Gruene
Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis
Faculty of Chemistry
University of Vienna

Phone: +43-1-4277-70202

GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A



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pgpfkzIv8hSuk.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Jacob Keller]

You were right: I did go to medical school, but you were wrong that I was
not instructed about informed consent; I was, and came out thinking it is
not as simple as you seem to portray it. We discussed the topic quite a
bit, and there were all sorts of borderline cases, weird twists, and so on.
That was one thing I loved about medical school: real
clinical/epidemiological life is much more vivid, complex, and nuanced than
the rules we try to impose. So...

Under some conditions the rules have to change, like during wars or
pandemics. I am very sympathetic to the idea of informed consent and not
forcing people to do things, especially medically, but don't you agree that
my personal freedom from things like vaccination sometimes begins to impose
on others' freedoms from pandemics? Or mandatory mask-wearing...?

And by the way, we are still at the sci-fi stage here, so let's not get too
exercised!

JPK

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 2:29 PM David Schuller  wrote:

> It was my understanding that you attended medical school. I am surprised
> that there was no instruction pertaining to the ethics of obtaining consent
> for human subject trials.
>
>
>
> On 2/17/21 2:09 PM, Jacob Keller wrote:
>
> But does it end better than the current best-seller "Smoldering Pandemic
> Paralyzes Human Race, Fuels Contention, Kills Millions, Drives the Rest
> Mad?"
>
> JPK
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:40 PM David Schuller 
> wrote:
>
>> I read that book. It does not end well.
>>
>>
>> On 2/17/21 12:33 PM, Jacob Keller wrote:
>>
>> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of
>> the Covid virus that would:
>>
>> A. be extremely contagious and yet
>> B. be clinically benign, and
>> C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
>>
>> If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
>> safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is
>> there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?
>>
>> Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
>>
>> Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?
>>
>> Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
>>
>> Jacob
>> --
>>
>> +
>>
>> Jacob Pearson Keller
>>
>> Assistant Professor
>>
>> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
>>
>> Uniformed Services University
>>
>> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
>>
>> Bethesda MD 20814
>>
>> jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com
>>
>> Cell: (301)592-7004
>>
>> +
>>
>> --
>>
>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>>
>>
>> --
>> ===
>> All Things Serve the Beam
>> ===
>>David J. Schuller
>>modern man in a post-modern world
>>MacCHESS, Cornell University
>>schul...@cornell.edu
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>>
>
>
> --
>
> +
>
> Jacob Pearson Keller
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
>
> Uniformed Services University
>
> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
>
> Bethesda MD 20814
>
> jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com
>
> Cell: (301)592-7004
>
> +
>
>
> --
> ===
> All Things Serve the Beam
> ===
>David J. Schuller
>modern man in a post-modern world
>MacCHESS, Cornell University
>schul...@cornell.edu
>
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>


-- 

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com

Cell: (301)592-7004

+



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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Navdeep Sidhu]

Hi Jacob,

I don't quite see the scientific necessity. There already are good
vaccines. If these are fine for the US and Europe, why aren't they fine
for the rest of the world?

Besides, the approach you suggest is fraught with risks. There is a
non-coronavirus precedent for this. The oral polio vaccine fulfilled
your ABC criteria ... initially: see e.g.

Peter Beaumont. "Vaccine-derived polio spreads in Africa after defeat of
wild virus." Guardian, Sep. 2, 2020
.

"Outdated polio vaccine causes new cases of disease." Nature, March 20,
2020 .

Cheers,
Navdeep


---
On 17.02.21 18:33, Jacob Keller wrote:
> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of
> the Covid virus that would:
> 
> A. be extremely contagious and yet
> B. be clinically benign, and
> C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
> 
> If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
> safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems?
> Is there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?
> 
> Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
> 
> Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?
> 
> Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
> 
> Jacob
> -- 
> 
> +
> 
> Jacob Pearson Keller
> 
> Assistant Professor
> 
> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
> 
> Uniformed Services University
> 
> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
> 
> Bethesda MD 20814
> 
> jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu
> ; jacobpkel...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> Cell: (301)592-7004
> 
> +
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
> 



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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[David Schuller]

It was my understanding that you attended medical school. I am surprised 
that there was no instruction pertaining to the ethics of obtaining 
consent for human subject trials.




On 2/17/21 2:09 PM, Jacob Keller wrote:
But does it end better than the current best-seller "Smoldering 
Pandemic Paralyzes Human Race, Fuels Contention, Kills Millions, 
Drives the Rest Mad?"


JPK



On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:40 PM David Schuller > wrote:


I read that book. It does not end well.


On 2/17/21 12:33 PM, Jacob Keller wrote:

It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate
versions of the Covid virus that would:

A. be extremely contagious and yet
B. be clinically benign, and
C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.

If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill
switch" safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's
pandemic problems? Is there any reason, practically, why this
approach would not be feasible?

Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?

Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare
apocalypse?

Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?

Jacob
-- 


+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu ;
jacobpkel...@gmail.com 

Cell: (301)592-7004

+




To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1




-- 
===

All Things Serve the Beam
===
David J. Schuller
modern man in a post-modern world
MacCHESS, Cornell University
schul...@cornell.edu  





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--

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu ; 
jacobpkel...@gmail.com 


Cell: (301)592-7004

+



--
===
All Things Serve the Beam
===
   David J. Schuller
   modern man in a post-modern world
   MacCHESS, Cornell University
   schul...@cornell.edu




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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Dale Tronrud]

   I think there is a great reluctance to release an "extremely 
contagious" virus into the world for any reason.  This is due to a 
combination of concern for informed consent, but more importantly, for 
fear of mutations causing a reversion to a dangerous form.  RNA viruses 
are particularly prone to mistakes when replicating their genome.


   The live form of the polio virus is the closest I know to the 
vaccination campaign you describe.  The vaccine is a version of polio 
virus with enough mutations to drop its replication rate to the point 
where it doesn't spread widely, so, in that point, it isn't a good model 
for your "extremely contagious" version.  This virus will replicate 
slowly in the gut for several months before immunity develops and the 
infection is eliminated.  This results in a very high level of 
protection for that person.


   A problem is that the virus is shed and can infect other people in 
the area who are not immune.  You could say "Great, more people 
vaccinated!".  Over the length of time of several successive infections 
reversion can occur and the disease can become severe enough to cause 
paralysis.


   This has a low probability but is avoided by ensuring that the live 
vaccine is only used when the surrounding population is well vaccinated, 
preventing repeated generations of infection. When there is a breakout 
of vaccine-derived polio the response is to sweep in and vaccinate as 
many people as possible.  Natural transmission cannot replace a 
vaccination program since the program is still required to clean up the 
mess when the live virus goes rogue.


   According to Wikipedia, in 2017 there were more cases of 
vaccine-related polio in the world than wild polio.  The live vaccine 
has not been used in the US for many years because the only cases of 
polio in the country were due to the vaccine.


100:  Your extremely contagious virus could never be recalled, and once 
it mutates, could only be overcome by an even more contagious vaccine 
virus. Goto 100


Dale Tronrud

On 2/17/2021 9:33 AM, Jacob Keller wrote:
It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of 
the Covid virus that would:


A. be extremely contagious and yet
B. be clinically benign, and
C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.

If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch" 
safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? 
Is there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?


Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?

Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?

Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?

Jacob
--

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu ; 
jacobpkel...@gmail.com 


Cell: (301)592-7004

+




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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Jacob Keller]

Had to research on Wiki for your arcane pop culture reference, but okay,
you can call it the Keller Virus; but I want a credited performance, and I
want someone else to make the thing, and for it to cure cancer as well and
not wipe out the human race. Weird GFP-related artifacts would be okay
though.


   - Emma Thompson <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Thompson> as Dr.
   Alice Krippin: The doctor who creates the cancer cure, she inadvertently
   brings mankind to the brink of extinction. Neville dubs the virus "the
   Krippin virus". Her performance is uncredited.


On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 2:15 PM Philip D. Jeffrey 
wrote:

> You're casting yourself in the Emma Thompson role for the remake of "I Am
> Legend" ?
>
> Phil
>
> --
> *From:* CCP4 bulletin board  on behalf of Jacob
> Keller 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 17, 2021 2:09 PM
> *To:* CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK 
> *Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"
>
> But does it end better than the current best-seller "Smoldering Pandemic
> Paralyzes Human Race, Fuels Contention, Kills Millions, Drives the Rest
> Mad?"
>
> JPK
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:40 PM David Schuller 
> wrote:
>
> I read that book. It does not end well.
>
>
> On 2/17/21 12:33 PM, Jacob Keller wrote:
>
> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of the
> Covid virus that would:
>
> A. be extremely contagious and yet
> B. be clinically benign, and
> C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
>
> If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
> safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is
> there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?
>
> Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
>
> Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?
>
> Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
>
> Jacob
> --
>
> +
>
> Jacob Pearson Keller
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
>
> Uniformed Services University
>
> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
>
> Bethesda MD 20814
>
> jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com
>
> Cell: (301)592-7004
>
> +
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>
>
> --
> ===
> All Things Serve the Beam
> ===
>David J. Schuller
>modern man in a post-modern world
>MacCHESS, Cornell University
>schul...@cornell.edu
>
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>
>
>
> --
>
> +
>
> Jacob Pearson Keller
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
>
> Uniformed Services University
>
> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
>
> Bethesda MD 20814
>
> jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com
>
> Cell: (301)592-7004
>
> +
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>


-- 

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com

Cell: (301)592-7004

+



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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Jacob Keller]

I was also thinking about vaccine distribution, how difficult it is.

The infectious vaccine is like lighting back-fires in forest fires.

One can certainly see why this would be instantly shot down by any pharma
CEO: all you need, theoretically, is enough for one infection, so negative
profit margin. (Unless  you charge $billions for that one infection)

JPK

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 2:09 PM Emilia Arturo  wrote:

> I hoped to see a vaccine available that can be taken as a pill or a mist,
> which would avoid some issues that plague both distribution and vaccine
> hesitancy. A faster and broader distribution, obviously, would increase
> population immunity more rapidly, consequently reducing transmission
> dramatically.
>
> Emilia ("Emily") C Arturo
> Postdoctoral associate
> Laboratory of Dr. Erica Ollmann Saphire
> Division of Structural Biology & Infectious Diseases
> La Jolla Institute for Immunology, California USA
> Twitter @moonlighterturo @ljiresearch @EOSpahire
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:07 AM Quyen Hoang  wrote:
>
>>  I guess that one might need a way to avoid natural mutations that could
>> turn B into B’ or B".
>>
>> Quyen
>>
>> Quyen Hoang, PhD
>> Associate Professor of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
>> Adjunct Associate Professor of Neurology
>> Primary Investigator of the Stark Neuroscience Research Institute
>> Indiana University School of Medicine
>> 635 Barnhill Drive, MS0013C
>> Indianapolis, IN, 46202
>> (317)274-4371
>> https://qqhoang.pages.iu.edu
>>
>> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of
>> the Covid virus that would:
>>
>> A. be extremely contagious and yet
>> B. be clinically benign, and
>> C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
>>
>> If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
>> safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is
>> there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?
>>
>> Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
>>
>> Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?
>>
>> Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
>>
>> Jacob
>> --
>>
>> +
>>
>> Jacob Pearson Keller
>>
>> Assistant Professor
>>
>> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
>>
>> Uniformed Services University
>>
>> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
>>
>> Bethesda MD 20814
>>
>> jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com
>>
>> Cell: (301)592-7004
>>
>> +
>>
>> --
>>
>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>>
>>
>> --
>> ===
>> All Things Serve the Beam
>> ===
>>David J. Schuller
>>modern man in a post-modern world
>>MacCHESS, Cornell University
>>schul...@cornell.edu
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>>
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>


-- 

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com

Cell: (301)592-7004

+



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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Philip D. Jeffrey]

You're casting yourself in the Emma Thompson role for the remake of "I Am 
Legend" ?

Phil


From: CCP4 bulletin board  on behalf of Jacob Keller 

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 2:09 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK 
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

But does it end better than the current best-seller "Smoldering Pandemic 
Paralyzes Human Race, Fuels Contention, Kills Millions, Drives the Rest Mad?"

JPK



On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:40 PM David Schuller 
mailto:schul...@cornell.edu>> wrote:
I read that book. It does not end well.


On 2/17/21 12:33 PM, Jacob Keller wrote:
It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of the 
Covid virus that would:

A. be extremely contagious and yet
B. be clinically benign, and
C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.

If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch" 
safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is 
there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?

Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?

Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?

Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?

Jacob
--

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu<mailto:jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu>; 
jacobpkel...@gmail.com<mailto:jacobpkel...@gmail.com>

Cell: (301)592-7004

+



To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1


--
===
All Things Serve the Beam
===
   David J. Schuller
   modern man in a post-modern world
   MacCHESS, Cornell University
   schul...@cornell.edu<mailto:schul...@cornell.edu>



To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1


--

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu<mailto:jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu>; 
jacobpkel...@gmail.com<mailto:jacobpkel...@gmail.com>

Cell: (301)592-7004

+



To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1



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hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at 
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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Jacob Keller]

But does it end better than the current best-seller "Smoldering Pandemic
Paralyzes Human Race, Fuels Contention, Kills Millions, Drives the Rest
Mad?"

JPK



On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:40 PM David Schuller 
wrote:

> I read that book. It does not end well.
>
>
> On 2/17/21 12:33 PM, Jacob Keller wrote:
>
> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of the
> Covid virus that would:
>
> A. be extremely contagious and yet
> B. be clinically benign, and
> C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
>
> If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
> safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is
> there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?
>
> Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
>
> Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?
>
> Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
>
> Jacob
> --
>
> +
>
> Jacob Pearson Keller
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
>
> Uniformed Services University
>
> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
>
> Bethesda MD 20814
>
> jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com
>
> Cell: (301)592-7004
>
> +
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>
>
> --
> ===
> All Things Serve the Beam
> ===
>David J. Schuller
>modern man in a post-modern world
>MacCHESS, Cornell University
>schul...@cornell.edu
>
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>


-- 

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com

Cell: (301)592-7004

+



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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Emilia Arturo]

I hoped to see a vaccine available that can be taken as a pill or a mist,
which would avoid some issues that plague both distribution and vaccine
hesitancy. A faster and broader distribution, obviously, would increase
population immunity more rapidly, consequently reducing transmission
dramatically.

Emilia ("Emily") C Arturo
Postdoctoral associate
Laboratory of Dr. Erica Ollmann Saphire
Division of Structural Biology & Infectious Diseases
La Jolla Institute for Immunology, California USA
Twitter @moonlighterturo @ljiresearch @EOSpahire




On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:07 AM Quyen Hoang  wrote:

>  I guess that one might need a way to avoid natural mutations that could
> turn B into B’ or B".
>
> Quyen
>
> Quyen Hoang, PhD
> Associate Professor of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
> Adjunct Associate Professor of Neurology
> Primary Investigator of the Stark Neuroscience Research Institute
> Indiana University School of Medicine
> 635 Barnhill Drive, MS0013C
> Indianapolis, IN, 46202
> (317)274-4371
> https://qqhoang.pages.iu.edu
>
> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of the
> Covid virus that would:
>
> A. be extremely contagious and yet
> B. be clinically benign, and
> C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
>
> If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
> safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is
> there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?
>
> Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
>
> Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?
>
> Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
>
> Jacob
> --
>
> +
>
> Jacob Pearson Keller
>
> Assistant Professor
>
> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
>
> Uniformed Services University
>
> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
>
> Bethesda MD 20814
>
> jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com
>
> Cell: (301)592-7004
>
> +
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>
>
> --
> ===
> All Things Serve the Beam
> ===
>David J. Schuller
>modern man in a post-modern world
>MacCHESS, Cornell University
>schul...@cornell.edu
>
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>
>
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>



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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Quyen Hoang]

 I guess that one might need a way to avoid natural mutations that could turn B 
into B’ or B".

Quyen

Quyen Hoang, PhD
Associate Professor of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
Adjunct Associate Professor of Neurology
Primary Investigator of the Stark Neuroscience Research Institute
Indiana University School of Medicine
635 Barnhill Drive, MS0013C
Indianapolis, IN, 46202
(317)274-4371
https://qqhoang.pages.iu.edu

>> It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of the 
>> Covid virus that would:
>> 
>> A. be extremely contagious and yet
>> B. be clinically benign, and
>> C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.
>> 
>> If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch" 
>> safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is 
>> there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?
>> 
>> Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?
>> 
>> Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?
>> 
>> Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?
>> 
>> Jacob
>> -- 
>> +
>> 
>> Jacob Pearson Keller
>> 
>> Assistant Professor
>> 
>> Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics
>> 
>> Uniformed Services University
>> 
>> 4301 Jones Bridge Road
>> 
>> Bethesda MD 20814
>> 
>> jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu ; 
>> jacobpkel...@gmail.com 
>> Cell: (301)592-7004
>> 
>> +
>> 
>> 
>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 
>> 
> -- 
> ===
> All Things Serve the Beam
> ===
>David J. Schuller
>modern man in a post-modern world
>MacCHESS, Cornell University
>schul...@cornell.edu 
> 
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 
> 



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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[David Schuller]

I read that book. It does not end well.


On 2/17/21 12:33 PM, Jacob Keller wrote:
It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of 
the Covid virus that would:


A. be extremely contagious and yet
B. be clinically benign, and
C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.

If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch" 
safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic 
problems? Is there any reason, practically, why this approach would 
not be feasible?


Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?

Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?

Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?

Jacob
--

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu ; 
jacobpkel...@gmail.com 


Cell: (301)592-7004

+




To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1 





--
===
All Things Serve the Beam
===
   David J. Schuller
   modern man in a post-modern world
   MacCHESS, Cornell University
   schul...@cornell.edu




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Re: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[David Briggs]

I think it is possible, but the reason it hasn't been done and will probably 
never be done is that informed consent is an important part of clinical 
practice.

D

--
Dr David C. Briggs
Senior Laboratory Research Scientist
Signalling and Structural Biology Lab
The Francis Crick Institute
London, UK
==
about.me/david_briggs

From: CCP4 bulletin board  on behalf of Jacob Keller 

Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 5:33:09 PM
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK 
Subject: [ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of the 
Covid virus that would:

A. be extremely contagious and yet
B. be clinically benign, and
C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.

If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch" 
safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is 
there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?

Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?

Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?

Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?

Jacob
--

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu<mailto:jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu>; 
jacobpkel...@gmail.com<mailto:jacobpkel...@gmail.com>

Cell: (301)592-7004

+



To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
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[ccp4bb] Contagious, Self-Distributing "Vaccines?"

[Jacob Keller]

It would seem to me that it should be possible to generate versions of the
Covid virus that would:

A. be extremely contagious and yet
B. be clinically benign, and
C. confer immunity to the original covid virus.

If, then, this virus could be released, with appropriate "kill switch"
safeguards built in, would this not solve the world's pandemic problems? Is
there any reason, practically, why this approach would not be feasible?

Maybe we don't really know enough to manipulate A, B, C yet?

Or maybe it's too scary for primetime...nightmare bio-warfare apocalypse?

Has this sort of thing been done, or does it have a name?

Jacob
-- 

+

Jacob Pearson Keller

Assistant Professor

Department of Pharmacology and Molecular Therapeutics

Uniformed Services University

4301 Jones Bridge Road

Bethesda MD 20814

jacob.kel...@usuhs.edu; jacobpkel...@gmail.com

Cell: (301)592-7004

+



To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1

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