[ccp4bb] Requested: Three-Day Data Fabrication Workshop
Dear CCP4BB, due to increasing demand, it seems we should put together a workshop on data fabrication, covering the various important topics (chaired by JHo): --Images: the future of fabrication? How long can we rely on database Luddism? --Ways out: how to leave a trail of accidental data mix-ups --Publish large or small? Cost-benefit analyses of impact factor vs. risk of being discovered --Pushing the envelope: how significant is two [sic] significant --Crossing discipline boundaries: are data fabrication procedures universal? --Build a better hofkristallrat-trap: utilization of rhetorical bombast and indignation in reply letters --Break-out support-session with survivors: comforting words on careers after the fall --Session on the inextricably-related topic of grammatical pedantry, to be followed by a soccer (football?) match Greeks Vs. Latins Ample funding will be available from big pharma and other industry sectors Please submit further topics to the CCP4BB list JPK ps I can't believe no one mentioned the loathsome Latino-Greek multimer in the recent curmudgeonry postings. *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu ***
Re: [ccp4bb] Requested: Three-Day Data Fabrication Workshop
On 04/02/12 11:15, Jacob Keller wrote: Dear CCP4BB, due to increasing demand, it seems we should put together a workshop on data fabrication, covering the various important topics (chaired by JHo): ... --Break-out support-session with survivors: comforting words on careers after the fall There's always economics. -- === All Things Serve the Beam === David J. Schuller modern man in a post-modern world MacCHESS, Cornell University schul...@cornell.edu
Re: [ccp4bb] Requested: Three-Day Data Fabrication Workshop
Dear Jacob, With all due respect, you have left out a key component to successful data fabrication in the modern age: software. It is quite obtuse not to have allocated at least one day of the workshop for practical applications of Photoshop to diffraction image generation and at least a passing coverage of whether or not Adobe Lightroom and crystallographic presets therein will be sufficiently capable of muddling the RCSB staff analysis of data feasibility checking. I would very much like to see Gerard Bricogne present a keynote lecture entitled something like, The R-Fake Parameter: A Maximum Likelihood Modulus to Define a Minimum Acceptable Data Drift Coefficient for Use in the Fabrication of Credibly Artificial Diffraction Data. I also believe that we are perhaps full of hubris as a crystallographic community, because an entire field of faked structural data has existed long before crystallographers even considered manufacturing their data. Specifically, the molecular modeling community has already surpassed us in their thinking on the subject. While we idly discuss how to properly generate false data, they have had the foresight to abandon ALL data...and even the starting coordinates in crystal structures - be they real or fictitious - and publish volumes of papers entirely unencumbered by reality or plausibility. My hat is off to them. Best regards, Jim On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Jacob Keller j-kell...@fsm.northwestern.edu wrote: Dear CCP4BB, due to increasing demand, it seems we should put together a workshop on data fabrication, covering the various important topics (chaired by JHo): --Images: the future of fabrication? How long can we rely on database Luddism? --Ways out: how to leave a trail of accidental data mix-ups --Publish large or small? Cost-benefit analyses of impact factor vs. risk of being discovered --Pushing the envelope: how significant is two [sic] significant --Crossing discipline boundaries: are data fabrication procedures universal? --Build a better hofkristallrat-trap: utilization of rhetorical bombast and indignation in reply letters --Break-out support-session with survivors: comforting words on careers after the fall --Session on the inextricably-related topic of grammatical pedantry, to be followed by a soccer (football?) match Greeks Vs. Latins Ample funding will be available from big pharma and other industry sectors Please submit further topics to the CCP4BB list JPK ps I can't believe no one mentioned the loathsome Latino-Greek multimer in the recent curmudgeonry postings. *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu *** -- James Kiefer, Ph.D. Structural Biology Genentech, Inc. 1 DNA Way, Mailstop 27 South San Francisco, CA 94080-4990
Re: [ccp4bb] Requested: Three-Day Data Fabrication Workshop
Touche. I very humbly and sincerely hereby retract my previous post--pressured by the scientific community, I felt obligated to present something of worth to the community, and therefore completely dreamed up the whole conference. I hope I have not inconvenienced anyone who may have made arrangements for travel based on my previous posting. JPK On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:39 AM, James Kiefer kiefer.ja...@gene.com wrote: Dear Jacob, With all due respect, you have left out a key component to successful data fabrication in the modern age: software. It is quite obtuse not to have allocated at least one day of the workshop for practical applications of Photoshop to diffraction image generation and at least a passing coverage of whether or not Adobe Lightroom and crystallographic presets therein will be sufficiently capable of muddling the RCSB staff analysis of data feasibility checking. I would very much like to see Gerard Bricogne present a keynote lecture entitled something like, The R-Fake Parameter: A Maximum Likelihood Modulus to Define a Minimum Acceptable Data Drift Coefficient for Use in the Fabrication of Credibly Artificial Diffraction Data. I also believe that we are perhaps full of hubris as a crystallographic community, because an entire field of faked structural data has existed long before crystallographers even considered manufacturing their data. Specifically, the molecular modeling community has already surpassed us in their thinking on the subject. While we idly discuss how to properly generate false data, they have had the foresight to abandon ALL data...and even the starting coordinates in crystal structures - be they real or fictitious - and publish volumes of papers entirely unencumbered by reality or plausibility. My hat is off to them. Best regards, Jim On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Jacob Keller j-kell...@fsm.northwestern.edu wrote: Dear CCP4BB, due to increasing demand, it seems we should put together a workshop on data fabrication, covering the various important topics (chaired by JHo): --Images: the future of fabrication? How long can we rely on database Luddism? --Ways out: how to leave a trail of accidental data mix-ups --Publish large or small? Cost-benefit analyses of impact factor vs. risk of being discovered --Pushing the envelope: how significant is two [sic] significant --Crossing discipline boundaries: are data fabrication procedures universal? --Build a better hofkristallrat-trap: utilization of rhetorical bombast and indignation in reply letters --Break-out support-session with survivors: comforting words on careers after the fall --Session on the inextricably-related topic of grammatical pedantry, to be followed by a soccer (football?) match Greeks Vs. Latins Ample funding will be available from big pharma and other industry sectors Please submit further topics to the CCP4BB list JPK ps I can't believe no one mentioned the loathsome Latino-Greek multimer in the recent curmudgeonry postings. *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu *** -- James Kiefer, Ph.D. Structural Biology Genentech, Inc. 1 DNA Way, Mailstop 27 South San Francisco, CA 94080-4990 -- *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu ***
Re: [ccp4bb] Requested: Three-Day Data Fabrication Workshop
Dear James, On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 08:39:41AM -0700, James Kiefer wrote: Dear Jacob, With all due respect, you have left out a key component to successful data fabrication in the modern age: software. It is quite obtuse not to have allocated at least one day of the workshop for practical applications of Photoshop to diffraction image generation and at least a passing coverage of whether or not Adobe Lightroom and crystallographic presets therein will be sufficiently capable of muddling the RCSB staff analysis of data feasibility checking. I would very much like to see Gerard Bricogne present a keynote lecture entitled something like, The R-Fake Parameter: A Maximum Likelihood Modulus to Define a Minimum Acceptable Data Drift Coefficient for Use in the Fabrication of Credibly Artificial Diffraction Data. Wait a minute ... I have indeed been trying to understand what types of random processes would best model errors in actual data, but that is in order to produce better likelihood functions to refine against raw data, not to better fake errors in fabricated data ;-) - although of course ... . Your suggested title is very good! I will work on a talk, even if the Workshop never happens. With best wishes, Gerard. -- I also believe that we are perhaps full of hubris as a crystallographic community, because an entire field of faked structural data has existed long before crystallographers even considered manufacturing their data. Specifically, the molecular modeling community has already surpassed us in their thinking on the subject. While we idly discuss how to properly generate false data, they have had the foresight to abandon ALL data...and even the starting coordinates in crystal structures - be they real or fictitious - and publish volumes of papers entirely unencumbered by reality or plausibility. My hat is off to them. Best regards, Jim On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Jacob Keller j-kell...@fsm.northwestern.edu wrote: Dear CCP4BB, due to increasing demand, it seems we should put together a workshop on data fabrication, covering the various important topics (chaired by JHo): --Images: the future of fabrication? How long can we rely on database Luddism? --Ways out: how to leave a trail of accidental data mix-ups --Publish large or small? Cost-benefit analyses of impact factor vs. risk of being discovered --Pushing the envelope: how significant is two [sic] significant --Crossing discipline boundaries: are data fabrication procedures universal? --Build a better hofkristallrat-trap: utilization of rhetorical bombast and indignation in reply letters --Break-out support-session with survivors: comforting words on careers after the fall --Session on the inextricably-related topic of grammatical pedantry, to be followed by a soccer (football?) match Greeks Vs. Latins Ample funding will be available from big pharma and other industry sectors Please submit further topics to the CCP4BB list JPK ps I can't believe no one mentioned the loathsome Latino-Greek multimer in the recent curmudgeonry postings. *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu *** -- James Kiefer, Ph.D. Structural Biology Genentech, Inc. 1 DNA Way, Mailstop 27 South San Francisco, CA 94080-4990 -- === * * * Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com * * * * Global Phasing Ltd. * * Sheraton House, Castle Park Tel: +44-(0)1223-353033 * * Cambridge CB3 0AX, UK Fax: +44-(0)1223-366889 * * * ===
Re: [ccp4bb] Requested: Three-Day Data Fabrication Workshop
Maybe we could have the workshop in Abilene? JPK On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.comwrote: Dear James, On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 08:39:41AM -0700, James Kiefer wrote: Dear Jacob, With all due respect, you have left out a key component to successful data fabrication in the modern age: software. It is quite obtuse not to have allocated at least one day of the workshop for practical applications of Photoshop to diffraction image generation and at least a passing coverage of whether or not Adobe Lightroom and crystallographic presets therein will be sufficiently capable of muddling the RCSB staff analysis of data feasibility checking. I would very much like to see Gerard Bricogne present a keynote lecture entitled something like, The R-Fake Parameter: A Maximum Likelihood Modulus to Define a Minimum Acceptable Data Drift Coefficient for Use in the Fabrication of Credibly Artificial Diffraction Data. Wait a minute ... I have indeed been trying to understand what types of random processes would best model errors in actual data, but that is in order to produce better likelihood functions to refine against raw data, not to better fake errors in fabricated data ;-) - although of course ... . Your suggested title is very good! I will work on a talk, even if the Workshop never happens. With best wishes, Gerard. -- I also believe that we are perhaps full of hubris as a crystallographic community, because an entire field of faked structural data has existed long before crystallographers even considered manufacturing their data. Specifically, the molecular modeling community has already surpassed us in their thinking on the subject. While we idly discuss how to properly generate false data, they have had the foresight to abandon ALL data...and even the starting coordinates in crystal structures - be they real or fictitious - and publish volumes of papers entirely unencumbered by reality or plausibility. My hat is off to them. Best regards, Jim On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Jacob Keller j-kell...@fsm.northwestern.edu wrote: Dear CCP4BB, due to increasing demand, it seems we should put together a workshop on data fabrication, covering the various important topics (chaired by JHo): --Images: the future of fabrication? How long can we rely on database Luddism? --Ways out: how to leave a trail of accidental data mix-ups --Publish large or small? Cost-benefit analyses of impact factor vs. risk of being discovered --Pushing the envelope: how significant is two [sic] significant --Crossing discipline boundaries: are data fabrication procedures universal? --Build a better hofkristallrat-trap: utilization of rhetorical bombast and indignation in reply letters --Break-out support-session with survivors: comforting words on careers after the fall --Session on the inextricably-related topic of grammatical pedantry, to be followed by a soccer (football?) match Greeks Vs. Latins Ample funding will be available from big pharma and other industry sectors Please submit further topics to the CCP4BB list JPK ps I can't believe no one mentioned the loathsome Latino-Greek multimer in the recent curmudgeonry postings. *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu *** -- James Kiefer, Ph.D. Structural Biology Genentech, Inc. 1 DNA Way, Mailstop 27 South San Francisco, CA 94080-4990 -- === * * * Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com * * * * Global Phasing Ltd. * * Sheraton House, Castle Park Tel: +44-(0)1223-353033 * * Cambridge CB3 0AX, UK Fax: +44-(0)1223-366889 * * * === -- *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu ***
Re: [ccp4bb] Requested: Three-Day Data Fabrication Workshop
Yep, phenix.fake_f_obs is available for use since April 22, 2011, but I made it such that it will only do the right thing in experienced hands -;) and I wouldn't teach it unless you sign a disclaimer -:) It's good for developers though who want to do fully controllable numeric experiments to test ideas. Pavel On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 8:39 AM, James Kiefer kiefer.ja...@gene.com wrote: Dear Jacob, With all due respect, you have left out a key component to successful data fabrication in the modern age: software. It is quite obtuse not to have allocated at least one day of the workshop for practical applications of Photoshop to diffraction image generation and at least a passing coverage of whether or not Adobe Lightroom and crystallographic presets therein will be sufficiently capable of muddling the RCSB staff analysis of data feasibility checking. I would very much like to see Gerard Bricogne present a keynote lecture entitled something like, The R-Fake Parameter: A Maximum Likelihood Modulus to Define a Minimum Acceptable Data Drift Coefficient for Use in the Fabrication of Credibly Artificial Diffraction Data. I also believe that we are perhaps full of hubris as a crystallographic community, because an entire field of faked structural data has existed long before crystallographers even considered manufacturing their data. Specifically, the molecular modeling community has already surpassed us in their thinking on the subject. While we idly discuss how to properly generate false data, they have had the foresight to abandon ALL data...and even the starting coordinates in crystal structures - be they real or fictitious - and publish volumes of papers entirely unencumbered by reality or plausibility. My hat is off to them. Best regards, Jim On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Jacob Keller j-kell...@fsm.northwestern.edu wrote: Dear CCP4BB, due to increasing demand, it seems we should put together a workshop on data fabrication, covering the various important topics (chaired by JHo): --Images: the future of fabrication? How long can we rely on database Luddism? --Ways out: how to leave a trail of accidental data mix-ups --Publish large or small? Cost-benefit analyses of impact factor vs. risk of being discovered --Pushing the envelope: how significant is two [sic] significant --Crossing discipline boundaries: are data fabrication procedures universal? --Build a better hofkristallrat-trap: utilization of rhetorical bombast and indignation in reply letters --Break-out support-session with survivors: comforting words on careers after the fall --Session on the inextricably-related topic of grammatical pedantry, to be followed by a soccer (football?) match Greeks Vs. Latins Ample funding will be available from big pharma and other industry sectors Please submit further topics to the CCP4BB list JPK ps I can't believe no one mentioned the loathsome Latino-Greek multimer in the recent curmudgeonry postings. *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu *** -- James Kiefer, Ph.D. Structural Biology Genentech, Inc. 1 DNA Way, Mailstop 27 South San Francisco, CA 94080-4990
Re: [ccp4bb] Requested: Three-Day Data Fabrication Workshop
Dear James, With all due respect, you have left out a key component to successful data fabrication in the modern age: THE MOLECULAR REPLACEMENT. Since almost all new structures have more or less close homologues in PDB, a smart fabricator should use their experimental data as a template. It will be more difficult to detect than the data built from the calculated structural factors. To prevent future fabrication attempts, we do not need submitting detector images, partially processed structural data such as unmerged structural factors would work, and they do not take that much space. The switch to the new format could be done in no time Alex On Apr 2, 2012, at 8:39 AM, James Kiefer wrote: Dear Jacob, With all due respect, you have left out a key component to successful data fabrication in the modern age: software. It is quite obtuse not to have allocated at least one day of the workshop for practical applications of Photoshop to diffraction image generation and at least a passing coverage of whether or not Adobe Lightroom and crystallographic presets therein will be sufficiently capable of muddling the RCSB staff analysis of data feasibility checking. I would very much like to see Gerard Bricogne present a keynote lecture entitled something like, The R-Fake Parameter: A Maximum Likelihood Modulus to Define a Minimum Acceptable Data Drift Coefficient for Use in the Fabrication of Credibly Artificial Diffraction Data. I also believe that we are perhaps full of hubris as a crystallographic community, because an entire field of faked structural data has existed long before crystallographers even considered manufacturing their data. Specifically, the molecular modeling community has already surpassed us in their thinking on the subject. While we idly discuss how to properly generate false data, they have had the foresight to abandon ALL data...and even the starting coordinates in crystal structures - be they real or fictitious - and publish volumes of papers entirely unencumbered by reality or plausibility. My hat is off to them. Best regards, Jim On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Jacob Keller j-kell...@fsm.northwestern.edu wrote: Dear CCP4BB, due to increasing demand, it seems we should put together a workshop on data fabrication, covering the various important topics (chaired by JHo): --Images: the future of fabrication? How long can we rely on database Luddism? --Ways out: how to leave a trail of accidental data mix-ups --Publish large or small? Cost-benefit analyses of impact factor vs. risk of being discovered --Pushing the envelope: how significant is two [sic] significant --Crossing discipline boundaries: are data fabrication procedures universal? --Build a better hofkristallrat-trap: utilization of rhetorical bombast and indignation in reply letters --Break-out support-session with survivors: comforting words on careers after the fall --Session on the inextricably-related topic of grammatical pedantry, to be followed by a soccer (football?) match Greeks Vs. Latins Ample funding will be available from big pharma and other industry sectors Please submit further topics to the CCP4BB list JPK ps I can't believe no one mentioned the loathsome Latino-Greek multimer in the recent curmudgeonry postings. *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu *** -- James Kiefer, Ph.D. Structural Biology Genentech, Inc. 1 DNA Way, Mailstop 27 South San Francisco, CA 94080-4990
Re: [ccp4bb] Requested: Three-Day Data Fabrication Workshop
Given some of the etymological discussion, and the suggestion of economics as an alternative career, it would seem that the workshop should be held in either Italy or Greece. Lynn Ten Eyck On Apr 2, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Jacob Keller wrote: Maybe we could have the workshop in Abilene? JPK On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com wrote: Dear James, On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 08:39:41AM -0700, James Kiefer wrote: Dear Jacob, With all due respect, you have left out a key component to successful data fabrication in the modern age: software. It is quite obtuse not to have allocated at least one day of the workshop for practical applications of Photoshop to diffraction image generation and at least a passing coverage of whether or not Adobe Lightroom and crystallographic presets therein will be sufficiently capable of muddling the RCSB staff analysis of data feasibility checking. I would very much like to see Gerard Bricogne present a keynote lecture entitled something like, The R-Fake Parameter: A Maximum Likelihood Modulus to Define a Minimum Acceptable Data Drift Coefficient for Use in the Fabrication of Credibly Artificial Diffraction Data. Wait a minute ... I have indeed been trying to understand what types of random processes would best model errors in actual data, but that is in order to produce better likelihood functions to refine against raw data, not to better fake errors in fabricated data ;-) - although of course ... . Your suggested title is very good! I will work on a talk, even if the Workshop never happens. With best wishes, Gerard. -- I also believe that we are perhaps full of hubris as a crystallographic community, because an entire field of faked structural data has existed long before crystallographers even considered manufacturing their data. Specifically, the molecular modeling community has already surpassed us in their thinking on the subject. While we idly discuss how to properly generate false data, they have had the foresight to abandon ALL data...and even the starting coordinates in crystal structures - be they real or fictitious - and publish volumes of papers entirely unencumbered by reality or plausibility. My hat is off to them. Best regards, Jim On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Jacob Keller j-kell...@fsm.northwestern.edu wrote: Dear CCP4BB, due to increasing demand, it seems we should put together a workshop on data fabrication, covering the various important topics (chaired by JHo): --Images: the future of fabrication? How long can we rely on database Luddism? --Ways out: how to leave a trail of accidental data mix-ups --Publish large or small? Cost-benefit analyses of impact factor vs. risk of being discovered --Pushing the envelope: how significant is two [sic] significant --Crossing discipline boundaries: are data fabrication procedures universal? --Build a better hofkristallrat-trap: utilization of rhetorical bombast and indignation in reply letters --Break-out support-session with survivors: comforting words on careers after the fall --Session on the inextricably-related topic of grammatical pedantry, to be followed by a soccer (football?) match Greeks Vs. Latins Ample funding will be available from big pharma and other industry sectors Please submit further topics to the CCP4BB list JPK ps I can't believe no one mentioned the loathsome Latino-Greek multimer in the recent curmudgeonry postings. *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu *** -- James Kiefer, Ph.D. Structural Biology Genentech, Inc. 1 DNA Way, Mailstop 27 South San Francisco, CA 94080-4990 -- === * * * Gerard Bricogne g...@globalphasing.com * * * * Global Phasing Ltd. * * Sheraton House, Castle Park Tel: +44-(0)1223-353033 * * Cambridge CB3 0AX, UK Fax: +44-(0)1223-366889 * * * === -- *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu ***
Re: [ccp4bb] Requested: Three-Day Data Fabrication Workshop
I wish to point out (because I remembered just now) that I offered a similar service after the Murthy scandal on this BB in August 2007: http://www.ruppweb.org/new_comp/frame_maker.html - and JK proposed a value-added contribution. See attached. Btw, Kim Henrick's analysis from 2007 still seems rather lucid to me. Best, BR From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Jacob Keller Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 8:15 AM To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Subject: [ccp4bb] Requested: Three-Day Data Fabrication Workshop Dear CCP4BB, due to increasing demand, it seems we should put together a workshop on data fabrication, covering the various important topics (chaired by JHo): --Images: the future of fabrication? How long can we rely on database Luddism? --Ways out: how to leave a trail of accidental data mix-ups --Publish large or small? Cost-benefit analyses of impact factor vs. risk of being discovered --Pushing the envelope: how significant is two [sic] significant --Crossing discipline boundaries: are data fabrication procedures universal? --Build a better hofkristallrat-trap: utilization of rhetorical bombast and indignation in reply letters --Break-out support-session with survivors: comforting words on careers after the fall --Session on the inextricably-related topic of grammatical pedantry, to be followed by a soccer (football?) match Greeks Vs. Latins Ample funding will be available from big pharma and other industry sectors Please submit further topics to the CCP4BB list JPK ps I can't believe no one mentioned the loathsome Latino-Greek multimer in the recent curmudgeonry postings. *** Jacob Pearson Keller Northwestern University Medical Scientist Training Program email: j-kell...@northwestern.edu *** ---BeginMessage--- In response to your website, I was thinking of a startup collecting old photos of crystals (harder to computer-generate) to go with the frames--interested in a collaboration? Maybe you could just put a link on your page? JPK ==Original message text=== On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 3:24:45 pm CDT Bernhard Rupp wrote: The PDB is missing a business opportunity. If authors pay 1000s of dollars for publication in high impact journals, they might as well pay a few bucks for image deposition. If I could get my images stored reliably and perpetually for something like $20-50 a pop, I'd do it. Do you know where your favourite frames from 1998 are? Image storage is a good idea *in itself*, but as an enforcement tool it only will make the *exceedingly few* Reids more inventive. PS: Frames for sale. http://www.ruppweb.org/new_comp/frame_maker.html -Original Message- From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Kim Henrick Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 7:04 AM To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Subject: [ccp4bb] Richard Reid and the PDB After Richard Reid more than 100 million people each year have to have their shoes examined and one effect is that older buildings like Heathrow Terminal 3 is the most painful place on earth, the cost of someone trying light their shoelaces has affect us all. The discussion on archiving image data sets - I guess that less than 1% of the image sets for PDB entries are useful to software development (and can be got privately) I guess that maybe 1 in 10,000 entries have a series problem that may require referees to look at the images (and can be accessed upon demand) The cost of disks for your PC - kitchen table disks from a supermarket, may be $1 per Gbyte on USB i/o but an archive centre required to maintain the data will probably need RAID 0/1 - RAID 10, this has high performance, and highest data protection, i.e. can tolerate multiple drive failures, but has high redundancy cost overhead, if you havent noticed a large collection of disks has failures. Look up the problems that the series of Landsat satellites have had from 1980 onwards with the problems arising out of the volume of data and the short life of computer compatible tapes and optical discs. Archiving data lacks glamour its the boring day to day rectification and storage of information, very little money gets spent on this task,for remote sensing the most significant cost is transmission/correction and archiving the data - Three semi-trailer loads of Landsat tapes were found (literally) moldering in a damp basement in Baltimore after people and funding agencies lost interest. Oh yes and detectors change every 5 years and processing software gets lost. At the EBI before we even get a single disk we pay ,000 for a cabinet - disks cost around for 300gigbytes (and not the best disks these are around the same cost for 146 Gigbytes). Disk technology changes every 5 years - an archive cost is to recover the data ever 5 years onto the next generation of hardware. Molecular
