Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Early adopt

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/10/2017 06:25 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote:

> There was one of those machines in my Junior High School shop
> classroom. I saw it run once (not well enough to successfully set a
> line of type, but nearly).
> 
> I endorse Mark’s assessment of its safety characteristics...

I knew a fellow who had one of them in his barn--and he set the local
freebie weekly newspaper with it.   Open gas flame, hot type metal
that's mostly lead, lots of open whirling parts--what's not to like?

Running one is definitely a real skill.  ETAOIN SHRDLU CMFWYP...

Neil Lincoln once told me that the name of ETA Systems back in the 80s
was suggested by his son.  Neil knew about the Linotype order, but it
was unclear to me if his son got it from a literary work (there were
several) or from the actual machine.  Chris Elmquist might know.

FWIW, the "assembler" in a Linotype machine is where the type matrices
drop down in a row, ready for "kerning".  Another non-computer use of
the word.

--Chuck

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Early adopt

[Tapley, Mark via cctalk]

On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:55 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk  
wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 04:55:48PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> Not nearly as funny to watch as a Mergenthaler Linotype hot-type
>> machine, I'll wager.
> 
> I got to see one in use my freshman year of college.  The school
> newspaper was still set that way (out of loyalty for the people
> who had done it for decades) but that was the last year.
> 
> I assure you in the strongest possible terms that this was pre-OSHA.

There was one of those machines in my Junior High School shop classroom. I saw 
it run once (not well enough to successfully set a line of type, but nearly).

I endorse Mark’s assessment of its safety characteristics...

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Ed via cctalk]

I remember the  first  articles I wrote  for  the HP  chronicle  newspaper 
I 
did  with  editor 3000...  it  was  handy as  where ever I was   I could 
log  
on and  work on  it.



In a message dated 9/10/2017 6:08:13 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

I  remember the  fort  articles I wrote  for the HP   chronicle  newspaper 
I 
did  with  editor 3000... it   was  handy as  where ever i was   I could 
log 
on  and  work on  it.


In a message dated 9/10/2017 6:04:53  P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org  writes:

>>  Virtually ALL "FIRST"s in history had obscure  predecessors.
>> Hence  the word "FIRST" should be avoided by  any real historians with  
integrity.

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Guy  Sotomayor Jr wrote:
> I think  it all depends upon how you define  “word processing”.  For 
> me I  absolutely detest things like  MS Word.  Probably because I started 
 
> with markup  languages.

Well, in THIS case, the claim was "the  first author to  write a novel on a 
computer".
There are a LOT of items  subject to  dispute.  Does "write a novel on a 
computer" include   manuscripts that were never submitted to publisher?
manuscripts rejected  by  publisher?
manuscripts that never made it to print?
Manuscripts  that  were printed, but had inadequate sales?
Published novels that  weren't best  sellers?
include composing on computer, but then retyped  by  secretary?
include composing offline, but typed on a computer  by  secretary?
Is a dedicated word processor machine a computer?
Is  a  terminal on a timesharing system "on a computer"?

So, I'm  settling for  pointing out that "FIRST" usually ignores obscure,  
little known,  unsuccessful, predecessors.

Jerry did some  great things to popularize  microcomputers, and bring them 
to the  masses.
He was an EARLY user  (Electric Pencil), but certainly not  "THE FIRST".

He wrote an  entertaining column.  It sometimes  pissed us off.
He was loud and  opinionated.
He had easy access to  all the latest stuff that we wanted -  one time, 
another columnist  ridiculed him by talking about Seymour Cray  personally 
installing  and troubleshooting a machine given to  Jerry.

We will miss  him.


PS: I started with an editor on a  timeahring system, and  then when 
microcomputers came out, used Electric  Pencil, then  SCRIPSIT (My Honda 
book) and Wordstar.  But once I  settled in,  I liked to use PC-Write for 
text editing (Bob Wallace and I  were  buddies in high school), and used 
Xerox Ventura for  formatting.   (XenoSoft manuals, etc.)
Now I use Word and Open  Office Writer.
I did my  PhD written exams on Windows Write, and was  the first person in 
the School  of Library and Information Studies to  do them on a  computer.
("FIRST"!!)  I responded to faculty  objections with, "Are  you going to 
grade me on my penmanship?"   Windows Write, being  included in the OS, 
seemed to answer some of  the concerns about how to  "sanitize" a computer 
to avoid smuggling  in pre-written  content.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred   ci...@xenosoft.com


> The first one was one  that I wrote  for the IBM 1130 so I could do a 
high 
school research  paper (1974).  It  was written in
> Fortran (sorry long gone)  and the “paper” was all on  punch cards and 
printed on a 1403  printer.  I did it mainly  because
> it was a pain to keep  track of how to format for footnotes and   
attributions.
>
> At CMU I used Scribe that output to the  XGP  (Xerox Graphics Printer 
driven by a PDP-11/45).  This was  the first time  I
> used something where there were selectable  fonts (1976).  At  IBM 
*everything* was done with various  versions of SCRIPT.
> At this  point I can’t recall but I believe a  number of the IBM manuals 
were all done  in SCRIPT.
>
> I  then used Interleaf (a *high* end document  publishing/management  
system) and then FrameMaker (before Adobe
>  completely screwed  it up and finally killed it).
>
> I currently  use LaTex for  producing anything more complicated than an  
email.
>
>  TTFN - Guy

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Ed via cctalk]

I remember the  fort  articles I wrote  for the HP  chronicle  newspaper I 
did  with  editor 3000... it  was  handy as  where ever i was   I could log 
on and  work on  it.
 
 
In a message dated 9/10/2017 6:04:53 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

>>  Virtually ALL "FIRST"s in history had obscure predecessors.
>> Hence  the word "FIRST" should be avoided by any real historians with  
integrity.

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
> I think  it all depends upon how you define “word processing”.  For 
> me I  absolutely detest things like MS Word.  Probably because I started  
> with markup languages.

Well, in THIS case, the claim was "the  first author to write a novel on a 
computer".
There are a LOT of items  subject to dispute.  Does "write a novel on a 
computer" include  manuscripts that were never submitted to publisher?
manuscripts rejected by  publisher?
manuscripts that never made it to print?
Manuscripts that  were printed, but had inadequate sales?
Published novels that weren't best  sellers?
include composing on computer, but then retyped by  secretary?
include composing offline, but typed on a computer by  secretary?
Is a dedicated word processor machine a computer?
Is a  terminal on a timesharing system "on a computer"?

So, I'm settling for  pointing out that "FIRST" usually ignores obscure, 
little known,  unsuccessful, predecessors.

Jerry did some great things to popularize  microcomputers, and bring them 
to the masses.
He was an EARLY user  (Electric Pencil), but certainly not "THE FIRST".

He wrote an  entertaining column.  It sometimes pissed us off.
He was loud and  opinionated.
He had easy access to all the latest stuff that we wanted -  one time, 
another columnist ridiculed him by talking about Seymour Cray  personally 
installing and troubleshooting a machine given to  Jerry.

We will miss him.


PS: I started with an editor on a  timeahring system, and then when 
microcomputers came out, used Electric  Pencil, then SCRIPSIT (My Honda 
book) and Wordstar.  But once I  settled in, I liked to use PC-Write for 
text editing (Bob Wallace and I  were buddies in high school), and used 
Xerox Ventura for formatting.   (XenoSoft manuals, etc.)
Now I use Word and Open Office Writer.
I did my  PhD written exams on Windows Write, and was the first person in 
the School  of Library and Information Studies to do them on a  computer.
("FIRST"!!)  I responded to faculty objections with, "Are  you going to 
grade me on my penmanship?"  Windows Write, being  included in the OS, 
seemed to answer some of the concerns about how to  "sanitize" a computer 
to avoid smuggling in pre-written  content.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fredci...@xenosoft.com


> The first one was one that I wrote  for the IBM 1130 so I could do a high 
school research paper (1974).  It  was written in
> Fortran (sorry long gone) and the “paper” was all on  punch cards and 
printed on a 1403 printer.  I did it mainly  because
> it was a pain to keep track of how to format for footnotes and  
attributions.
>
> At CMU I used Scribe that output to the XGP  (Xerox Graphics Printer 
driven by a PDP-11/45).  This was the first time  I
> used something where there were selectable fonts (1976).  At  IBM 
*everything* was done with various versions of SCRIPT.
> At this  point I can’t recall but I believe a number of the IBM manuals 
were all done  in SCRIPT.
>
> I then used Interleaf (a *high* end document  publishing/management 
system) and then FrameMaker (before Adobe
>  completely screwed it up and finally killed it).
>
> I currently  use LaTex for producing anything more complicated than an  
email.
>
> TTFN - Guy

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Virtually ALL "FIRST"s in history had obscure predecessors.
Hence the word "FIRST" should be avoided by any real historians with integrity.


On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
I think it all depends upon how you define ???word processing???.  For 
me I absolutely detest things like MS Word.  Probably because I started 
with markup languages.


Well, in THIS case, the claim was "the first author to write a novel on a 
computer".
There are a LOT of items subject to dispute.  Does "write a novel on a 
computer" include manuscripts that were never submitted to publisher?

manuscripts rejected by publisher?
manuscripts that never made it to print?
Manuscripts that were printed, but had inadequate sales?
Published novels that weren't best sellers?
include composing on computer, but then retyped by secretary?
include composing offline, but typed on a computer by secretary?
Is a dedicated word processor machine a computer?
Is a terminal on a timesharing system "on a computer"?

So, I'm settling for pointing out that "FIRST" usually ignores obscure, 
little known, unsuccessful, predecessors.


Jerry did some great things to popularize microcomputers, and bring them 
to the masses.

He was an EARLY user (Electric Pencil), but certainly not "THE FIRST".

He wrote an entertaining column.  It sometimes pissed us off.
He was loud and opinionated.
He had easy access to all the latest stuff that we wanted - one time, 
another columnist ridiculed him by talking about Seymour Cray personally 
installing and troubleshooting a machine given to Jerry.


We will miss him.


PS: I started with an editor on a timeahring system, and then when 
microcomputers came out, used Electric Pencil, then SCRIPSIT (My Honda 
book) and Wordstar.  But once I settled in, I liked to use PC-Write for 
text editing (Bob Wallace and I were buddies in high school), and used 
Xerox Ventura for formatting.  (XenoSoft manuals, etc.)

Now I use Word and Open Office Writer.
I did my PhD written exams on Windows Write, and was the first person in 
the School of Library and Information Studies to do them on a computer.
("FIRST"!!)  I responded to faculty objections with, "Are you going to 
grade me on my penmanship?"  Windows Write, being included in the OS, 
seemed to answer some of the concerns about how to "sanitize" a computer 
to avoid smuggling in pre-written content.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com



The first one was one that I wrote for the IBM 1130 so I could do a high school 
research paper (1974).  It was written in
Fortran (sorry long gone) and the ???paper??? was all on punch cards and 
printed on a 1403 printer.  I did it mainly because
it was a pain to keep track of how to format for footnotes and attributions.

At CMU I used Scribe that output to the XGP (Xerox Graphics Printer driven by a 
PDP-11/45).  This was the first time I
used something where there were selectable fonts (1976).  At IBM *everything* 
was done with various versions of SCRIPT.
At this point I can???t recall but I believe a number of the IBM manuals were 
all done in SCRIPT.

I then used Interleaf (a *high* end document publishing/management system) and 
then FrameMaker (before Adobe
completely screwed it up and finally killed it).

I currently use LaTex for producing anything more complicated than an email.

TTFN - Guy

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Early adopt

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 04:55:48PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Not nearly as funny to watch as a Mergenthaler Linotype hot-type
> machine, I'll wager.

I got to see one in use my freshman year of college.  The school
newspaper was still set that way (out of loyalty for the people
who had done it for decades) but that was the last year.

I assure you in the strongest possible terms that this was pre-OSHA.

mcl

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

> On Sep 10, 2017, at 3:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>>> What word-processor programs existed prior to  micros?
>> WPS-8, of course.  Wang had word processors in that same  era.  Then there
>> is the MT/ST which I think is older still.  And if  you define it as
>> "computer based text editor" then you'd go back at least to  TECO, which 
>> first
>> appeared on the PDP-1, so that would be early  1960s.
> 
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
>> WPS-8 was awesome! I had one of the desks with the 8a in the back and rxo1 
>> drives!
>> and the daisy wheel printer then over time ended up with three but alas 
>> have none now...
> 
> Surely SOMEBODY must have used one for a manuscript.  Possibly after hours in 
> a business where the boss might not have even approved of using it for 
> "non-business" stuff.  'course it might have been something obscure and 
> forgettable.
> 
> Virtually ALL "FIRST"s in history had obscure predecessors.
> Hence the word "FIRST" should be avoided by any real historians with 
> integrity.
> 
> 

I think it all depends upon how you define “word processing”.  For me I 
absolutely detest things like MS Word.  Probably
because I started with markup languages.

The first one was one that I wrote for the IBM 1130 so I could do a high school 
research paper (1974).  It was written in
Fortran (sorry long gone) and the “paper” was all on punch cards and printed on 
a 1403 printer.  I did it mainly because
it was a pain to keep track of how to format for footnotes and attributions.

At CMU I used Scribe that output to the XGP (Xerox Graphics Printer driven by a 
PDP-11/45).  This was the first time I
used something where there were selectable fonts (1976).  At IBM *everything* 
was done with various versions of SCRIPT.  
At this point I can’t recall but I believe a number of the IBM manuals were all 
done in SCRIPT.

I then used Interleaf (a *high* end document publishing/management system) and 
then FrameMaker (before Adobe
completely screwed it up and finally killed it).

I currently use LaTex for producing anything more complicated than an email.

TTFN - Guy

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Early adopt

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/10/2017 03:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> I tried to interest my publisher in going straight from microcomputer
> into typesetting machine, but I couldn't do that disk format, and the
> Rochester Dynatyper was too funny to watch. 

Not nearly as funny to watch as a Mergenthaler Linotype hot-type
machine, I'll wager.

--Chuck

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/10/2017 03:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Surely SOMEBODY must have used one for a manuscript.  Possibly after
> hours in a business where the boss might not have even approved of using
> it for "non-business" stuff.  'course it might have been something
> obscure and forgettable.
> 
> Virtually ALL "FIRST"s in history had obscure predecessors.
> Hence the word "FIRST" should be avoided by any real historians with
> integrity.

The history of Wapros is pretty spotty, since apparently few take an
interest in office automation.

Vydec, AES, CPT...none of those initially used microprocessors.

--Chuck

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

What word-processor programs existed prior to  micros?

WPS-8, of course.  Wang had word processors in that same  era.  Then there
is the MT/ST which I think is older still.  And if  you define it as
"computer based text editor" then you'd go back at least to  TECO, which first
appeared on the PDP-1, so that would be early  1960s.


On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
WPS-8 was awesome! I had one of the desks with the 8a in the back and 
rxo1 drives!
and the daisy wheel printer then over time ended up with three but 
alas have none now...


Surely SOMEBODY must have used one for a manuscript.  Possibly 
after hours in a business where the boss might not have even 
approved of using it for "non-business" stuff.  'course it might have been 
something obscure and forgettable.


Virtually ALL "FIRST"s in history had obscure predecessors.
Hence the word "FIRST" should be avoided by any real historians with 
integrity.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Early adopt

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Fred, you forgot that Tesla invented alternating current...


I wasn't around for that stuff.
From what I've heard, he didn't get into public electrocutions to 

demonstrate.


It seems that anything with a typewriter style keyboard and ANY sort of 
storage would get used for correspondence and manuscripts.  Then, business 
letters started to be obsessed with print quality.



BTW, Sam Clemens (Mark Twain) is credited with being first to submit a 
typewritten manuscript.  That may be true.  'Course really obscure 
manuscript submissions would have been ignored or forgotten, so unless we 
have an exhaustive count of typewriters sold, and exhaustive records of 
publishers, the claim should remain as "probably".
ALL history "FIRST"s are subject to the obscure prior entries being 
forgotten.  After all, history teachers still call Columbus "FIRST"!



I tried to interest my publisher in going straight from microcomputer into 
typesetting machine, but I couldn't do that disk format, and the Rochester 
Dynatyper was too funny to watch.  My publisher's wife did not see it as 
being a sufficient benefit over her re-typing into the typesetter 
keyboard.

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Ed via cctalk]

WPS-8 was awesome! I had  one of the desks  with the 8a in  the  back and 
rxo1 drives!
and the  daisy wheel printer  then over  time ended up with  three but  
alas  have none  now...
 
Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 9/10/2017 3:25:04 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:


>  On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
 wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017,  couryho...@aol.com wrote:
>> then. who was. the   TRUE  first?
> 
> Michael Shrayer's girlfriend?
> And  what motivated him to write "Electric Pencil"?
> Jerry started using it  early on, but he was NOT the first user of it.
> 
> Before  Electric Pencil, what microcomputer word-processor programs 
preceded  that?   I seriously doubt that Michael Shrayer was the only one to  
write one.
> 
> What word-processor programs existed prior to  micros?

WPS-8, of course.  Wang had word processors in that same  era.  Then there 
is the MT/ST which I think is older still.  And if  you define it as 
"computer based text editor" then you'd go back at least to  TECO, which first 
appeared on the PDP-1, so that would be early  1960s.

paul

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
>> then. who was. the  TRUE  first?
> 
> Michael Shrayer's girlfriend?
> And what motivated him to write "Electric Pencil"?
> Jerry started using it early on, but he was NOT the first user of it.
> 
> Before Electric Pencil, what microcomputer word-processor programs preceded 
> that?   I seriously doubt that Michael Shrayer was the only one to write one.
> 
> What word-processor programs existed prior to micros?

WPS-8, of course.  Wang had word processors in that same era.  Then there is 
the MT/ST which I think is older still.  And if you define it as "computer 
based text editor" then you'd go back at least to TECO, which first appeared on 
the PDP-1, so that would be early 1960s.

paul

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, couryho...@aol.com wrote:

WORD PROCESSING VIA PUNCH CARDS
Need  to insert the paragraph in a different place?
Shift those  cards in the  deck 


Yep!
To make a change, you retype a LINE, not a PAGE.

WE think of microcomputers as being the first "practical" way to do it.
A lot of the young kids can't imagine the idea of word-processing without 
FONTS, just as we had difficulty with the idea of all UPPERCASE.


Thirty years ago, even if an author used a word processor, the PUBLISHER 
would re-type it!  They absolutely did not want fonts and formatting, 
wanting to control those themselves, and probably wouldn't have even 
cared about UPPER/lower case!
My publisher's wife would average 150 words per minute for an eight hour 
day!  At the end of the day, she remembered almost nothing of what she had 
typed.   Word processing was much more important to me, since it took me 
five times as long to type each page.   But, they liked the idea of a word 
processor - less mechanical stuff to wear out, "when the keyboard wears 
out, you can just plug in another one, without having to have anything 
repaired??!" (after moving from TRS-80 to 5150).



Seriously though... anything helps  me... I have never written long  things
in a linear manner...
when I was  a kid  I  would  write the stuff   down  then cut the
paragraphs out and rearrange them and tape them to a new  piece of paper.


THAT is what attracted Deighton.   Copydex (paste) instead of tape.  Some 
prefer hot wax pasteup.



Then I discovered  Girls!
How wonderfully  they  did  with shorthand  and  typing.


and changed your focus

Re: Computers before Information Theory

[Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk]

On Sep 10, 2017, at 12:22 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

>> From: Brent Hilpert
> 
> ...snip...
> 
>> When/what/who was the actual first assembler conceived or produced?
> 
> Noel wrote:

> A very good question indeed! Does anyone know?
> 
> I have this bit set that one early computer assigned the opcodes to make
> sense as single characters; e.g. the ADD instruction would have had opcode
> 'A' (not in hex, this was before that). Alas, I can't find which one it was -
> it's not the Pilot ACE; I checked, and that was always programmed direcly in
> binary (by punching the program onto cards in binary, manually).
> 

A machine that springs to mind is the original UNIVAC. A was add, D was divide, 
E for Extract, T for Transfer, U for Unconditional Transfer, etc. Worked well 
for most of the instructions.

The LGP-30 had the advantage of recoding the Flexowriter keyboard/tape input 
for its 16 instructions. 

B: Bring
A: Add
S: Subtract
M: Multiply (fractional)
N: Multiply (integral)
D: Divide
H: Hold
C: Clear
Y: Store Address
R: Return Address
E: Extract
U: Transfer Control
T: Test
I: Input
P: Print
Z: Stop

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk]

On Sep 10, 2017, at 4:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
>> then. who was. the  TRUE  first?
> 
> Michael Shrayer's girlfriend?
> And what motivated him to write "Electric Pencil"?
> Jerry started using it early on, but he was NOT the first user of it.
> 
> Before Electric Pencil, what microcomputer word-processor programs preceded 
> that?   I seriously doubt that Michael Shrayer was the only one to write one.
> 
> What word-processor programs existed prior to micros?
> 
> If I were to have had lower case capability with punch cards (I only had 
> access to common models of 026 and 029), I would have used punchcards for 
> word processing!  I did use them for such trivia as the single page list of 
> names and phone numbers that I needed.
> In 1968, I did word-processing on a time-sharing system, while I was working 
> at Goddard Space Flight Center.  THAT, of course, was not PUBLISHED work.  My 
> first PUBLISHED book was my Honda book, for which I used TRS-80.
> Microcomputers were NOT the first computers capable of word-processing.
> The word processing capability of late 1960s time sharing systems WAS being 
> used for manuscripts, often on the sly to keep the boss from freaking out 
> over the bills for use!
> 
> You are not likely to find the "TRUE first", only "A first", or "some of the 
> first".
> Maybe even the "FIRST to be a major best-seller".  THEN you have a 
> researchable claim, without all of the unpublished manuscripts in attics.
> Jerry's [disputable] claim was to have been the first author to write a
> PUBLISHED BOOK on computer.
> 
> And, there were authors using computers, for whom using the computer was NOT 
> an important aspect to them.  Some published books prior to his may have been 
> written on computer, without having made a big deal out of that!
> 
> 
> Just like Osborne was NOT "THE FIRST" portable microcomputer.  We had the 
> Elcompco earlier (a few different single board machines with 5" monitor in a 
> Halliburton attache case), and I know that we were not the first.
> 
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred   ci...@xenosoft.com

And then there were non-computer "machines" capable of word processing, like 
the Friden Flexowriter that had both upper and lower case and supported paper 
tape punching and reading (and edged punched cards if you wanted to break 
things up ala IBM card). I've also written letters on 5-level and 8-level 
teletypes punching locally. Make a mistake, just backspace and hit 'rubout'. 
Easy to edit as you go. Not so easy to move sentences/paragraphs around, though 
it can be done if you keep track of your tapes. 

Interestingly, the LGP-30 had control of both cases of its Flexowriter. I 
suppose you could write a WP program for it, but you'd probably bump up against 
its 4KW memory, and at the equivalent of $400k in today's money, I doubt its 
powers were wasted on typing. -C

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Ed via cctalk]

WORD PROCESSING VIA PUNCH CARDS
 
Need  to insert the paragraph in a different place? 
Shift those  cards in the  deck 
 
 
Seriously though... anything helps  me... I have never written long  things 
in a linear manner...
when I was  a kid  I  would  write the stuff   down  then cut the 
paragraphs out and rearrange them and tape them to a new  piece of paper. 
 
Then I discovered  Girls!
 
How wonderfully  they  did  with shorthand  and  typing.
 
Ed#
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/10/2017 2:24:31 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

On Sun,  10 Sep 2017, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
> then. who was.  the  TRUE  first?

Michael Shrayer's girlfriend?
And what  motivated him to write "Electric Pencil"?
Jerry started using it early on,  but he was NOT the first user of it.

Before Electric Pencil, what  microcomputer word-processor programs 
preceded that?   I  seriously doubt that Michael Shrayer was the only one 
to write  one.

What word-processor programs existed prior to micros?

If I  were to have had lower case capability with punch cards (I only had 
access  to common models of 026 and 029), I would have used punchcards for 
word  processing!  I did use them for such trivia as the single page list  
of names and phone numbers that I needed.
In 1968, I did  word-processing on a time-sharing system, while I was 
working at Goddard  Space Flight Center.  THAT, of course, was not 
PUBLISHED work.   My first PUBLISHED book was my Honda book, for which I 
used  TRS-80.
Microcomputers were NOT the first computers capable of  word-processing.
The word processing capability of late 1960s time sharing  systems WAS 
being used for manuscripts, often on the sly to keep the boss  from 
freaking out over the bills for use!

You are not likely to  find the "TRUE first", only "A first", or "some of 
the first".
Maybe  even the "FIRST to be a major best-seller".  THEN you have a  
researchable claim, without all of the unpublished manuscripts in  attics.
Jerry's [disputable] claim was to have been the first author to  write a
PUBLISHED BOOK on computer.

And, there were authors using  computers, for whom using the computer was 
NOT an important aspect to  them.  Some published books prior to his may 
have been written on  computer, without having made a big deal out of that!


Just like  Osborne was NOT "THE FIRST" portable microcomputer.  We had the  
Elcompco earlier (a few different single board machines with 5" monitor  
in a Halliburton attache case), and I know that we were not the  first.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fredci...@xenosoft.com

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, couryho...@aol.com wrote:

then. who was. the  TRUE  first?


Michael Shrayer's girlfriend?
And what motivated him to write "Electric Pencil"?
Jerry started using it early on, but he was NOT the first user of it.

Before Electric Pencil, what microcomputer word-processor programs 
preceded that?   I seriously doubt that Michael Shrayer was the only one 
to write one.


What word-processor programs existed prior to micros?

If I were to have had lower case capability with punch cards (I only had 
access to common models of 026 and 029), I would have used punchcards for 
word processing!  I did use them for such trivia as the single page list 
of names and phone numbers that I needed.
In 1968, I did word-processing on a time-sharing system, while I was 
working at Goddard Space Flight Center.  THAT, of course, was not 
PUBLISHED work.  My first PUBLISHED book was my Honda book, for which I 
used TRS-80.

Microcomputers were NOT the first computers capable of word-processing.
The word processing capability of late 1960s time sharing systems WAS 
being used for manuscripts, often on the sly to keep the boss from 
freaking out over the bills for use!


You are not likely to find the "TRUE first", only "A first", or "some of 
the first".
Maybe even the "FIRST to be a major best-seller".  THEN you have a 
researchable claim, without all of the unpublished manuscripts in attics.

Jerry's [disputable] claim was to have been the first author to write a
PUBLISHED BOOK on computer.

And, there were authors using computers, for whom using the computer was 
NOT an important aspect to them.  Some published books prior to his may 
have been written on computer, without having made a big deal out of that!



Just like Osborne was NOT "THE FIRST" portable microcomputer.  We had the 
Elcompco earlier (a few different single board machines with 5" monitor 
in a Halliburton attache case), and I know that we were not the first.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Tips For Soldering a Surface Mount PLCC Socket

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

On 10/09/2017 20:55, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:

I want to replace a PLCC84 surface mounted chip and take the opportunity to
socket it.

I have looked at some YouTube videos to see how others have done this. I am
thinking that the best way is going to be to pre-solder the pads on the
socket, place the socket on the board and then heat the pads on the socket
from above with my finest tip.


Even with good flux, you'll find that difficult to get right, as the 
solder on the socket pins won't be perfectly even and it won't sit 
properly flat on the PCB pads.


You need decent solder paste, as sold in a small syringe, and the 
matching liquid flux. Be sparing with the paste and generous with the flux.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

RE: Tips For Soldering a Surface Mount PLCC Socket

[Rik Bos via cctalk]

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Namens Rob Jarratt via
> cctalk
> Verzonden: zondag 10 september 2017 21:55
> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

> Onderwerp: Tips For Soldering a Surface Mount PLCC Socket
> 
> I want to replace a PLCC84 surface mounted chip and take the opportunity
to
> socket it.
> 
> 
> 
> I have looked at some YouTube videos to see how others have done this. I
am
> thinking that the best way is going to be to pre-solder the pads on the
socket,
> place the socket on the board and then heat the pads on the socket from
above
> with my finest tip. I don't have a hot air gun, access to one side of the
socket
> would be difficult from the "outside" as there is another tallish
component fairly
> close by.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that my best option? Any better ways?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Rob

It will work but you have to ad (noclean) flux before reheating the pins.
The solder will flow much easier that way.
There are special rework tips for this kind of work, to make the solder
easier.
The best way to do this is using solder paste and an external heat source
like hot air, IR-lamp.

-Rik

Re: Tips For Soldering a Surface Mount PLCC Socket

[N0body H0me via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Sent: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 13:07:25 -0700
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Tips For Soldering a Surface Mount PLCC Socket
> 
> On 09/10/2017 12:55 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I have looked at some YouTube videos to see how others have done this. I
>> am
>> thinking that the best way is going to be to pre-solder the pads on the
>> socket, place the socket on the board and then heat the pads on the
>> socket
>> from above with my finest tip. I don't have a hot air gun, access to one
>> side of the socket would be difficult from the "outside" as there is
>> another
>> tallish component fairly close by.
> 
> I've done it that way and it worked, but the result (melted socket bits)
> wasn't pretty, though once the IC was in, you couldn't tell.
> 
> If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably spring for a hot-air
> rework setup.


And a board heater!

Re: Computers before Information Theory

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Sep 10, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Brent Hilpert
> 
> ...
> 
>> When/what/who was the actual first assembler conceived or produced?
> 
> A very good question indeed! Does anyone know?

I don't.  But I can point to an early example of a quite primitive assembler, 
the one in the Electrologica X1 ROM code (you could call that a BIOS).  That 
was around 1957, written by Dijkstra and described in detail in his Ph.D. 
thesis.  It has somewhat symbolic instructions (digit/letter, the digit 
indicates the operation and the letter the register, e.g., "2A" for "load into 
A register").  And it has symbols, but only two characters long, so they were 
used to label blocks of data or code, with numeric offsets from there.

paul

Re: Computers before Information Theory

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/10/2017 10:22 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

> A very good question indeed! Does anyone know?

Wikipedia gives credit to Kathleen Booth in 1947 developing an assembler
for the ARC2 at the UofL.

EDSAC had one in 1949.

Then there was SAP (Symbolic Assembly Program) and SOAP (Symbolic
Optimizing Assembly Program for the IBM 650 (ca. 1954?).

Let's just say it's one of those obvious applications, especially if
you've ever spent time hand-assembling code.

--Chuck

Tips For Soldering a Surface Mount PLCC Socket

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

I want to replace a PLCC84 surface mounted chip and take the opportunity to
socket it.

 

I have looked at some YouTube videos to see how others have done this. I am
thinking that the best way is going to be to pre-solder the pads on the
socket, place the socket on the board and then heat the pads on the socket
from above with my finest tip. I don't have a hot air gun, access to one
side of the socket would be difficult from the "outside" as there is another
tallish component fairly close by.

 

Is that my best option? Any better ways?

 

Thanks

 

Rob

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

For what it's worth, WikiP gives the following attribution:

"The first novel to be written on a word processor, the IBM MT/ST, was
Len Deighton's Bomber, published in 1970."

But history is a fickle mistress.

--Chuck

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/10/2017 11:40 AM, Ed via cctalk wrote:
> then. who was. the  TRUE  first?
>  

We'll probably never know that one.  It was an obvious application once
alphanumeric printing was possible.  See, for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_processor#History

One of the initial attractions was realizing that a computer program
could arrange and format text to fit on a sheet of paper--and that it
was very easy to edit said text if it resided on a deck of punched
cards; later on a video display.

--Chuck

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Earl...

[Ed via cctalk]

then. who was. the  TRUE  first?
 
Ed#
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/10/2017 11:08:54 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

>  RIP  Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a  computer
FIRST??!?
By now, you should know better than to EVER use that  word in the presence 
of those who were there during the history - it's  comparable to saying 
that Steve Jobs invented the first computer, or that  billg invented the 
first software.

NO.
He was an early  adopter.
He was a major influence.
He was a friend.   (and  sometimes a pompous buffoon of a friend)

My booth staff at Comdex and  West Coast Computer Faire were under strict 
orders to get a beer into his  hand as soon as they saw him.  We got some 
free ink, and not just for  the cold beer.  He and Roberta [Pournelle] 
convinced "Bait" to  specialize in computers in her booth-bimbo career, 
surprised that she  didn't end up CEO of HP or the like.
(In my company, similar to Autodesk,  people chose their own job titles.  I 
was "Programmer".  My  assistant eventually changed from "Emperor of The 
Galaxy" to  "VP")


But, there were MANY obscure, mostly unpublished, manuscripts  among the 
VERY first uses of word processing.  Well before Jerry got  into computers.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred  ci...@xenosoft.com

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Ed via cctalk  wrote:
> RIP  Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on  a computer
>
>
> Early  adopter
> by Andrew   Liptak
>
>
>  
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/9/16279582/jerry-pournelle-science-fiction-a
>  uthor-writing-computers-obituary
>
>
>
> sad   Ed#
>

--
Fred Cisin ci...@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft  http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236   (510) 234-3397
Berkeley, CA  94701-1236

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Early adopt

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/10/2017 11:08 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> But, there were MANY obscure, mostly unpublished, manuscripts among the
> VERY first uses of word processing.  Well before Jerry got into computers.

In fact, I'm aware of at least one novel that was composed using punched
cards on a mainframe.  Using computers to prepare text pre-dates
microprocessors by a country mile.  Calling it "word processing" was a
later innovation.

That being said, I enjoyed Jerry's USENET postings back in the day
immensely.

Fred, you forgot that Tesla invented alternating current...

--Chuck

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Early adopt

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

RIP  Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer

FIRST??!?
By now, you should know better than to EVER use that word in the presence 
of those who were there during the history - it's comparable to saying 
that Steve Jobs invented the first computer, or that billg invented the 
first software.


NO.
He was an early adopter.
He was a major influence.
He was a friend.   (and sometimes a pompous buffoon of a friend)

My booth staff at Comdex and West Coast Computer Faire were under strict 
orders to get a beer into his hand as soon as they saw him.  We got some 
free ink, and not just for the cold beer.  He and Roberta [Pournelle] 
convinced "Bait" to specialize in computers in her booth-bimbo career, 
surprised that she didn't end up CEO of HP or the like.
(In my company, similar to Autodesk, people chose their own job titles.  I 
was "Programmer".  My assistant eventually changed from "Emperor of The 
Galaxy" to "VP")



But, there were MANY obscure, mostly unpublished, manuscripts among the 
VERY first uses of word processing.  Well before Jerry got into computers.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote:

RIP  Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer


Early  adopter
by Andrew  Liptak


https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/9/16279582/jerry-pournelle-science-fiction-a
uthor-writing-computers-obituary



sad  Ed#



--
Fred Cisin  ci...@xenosoft.com
XenoSofthttp://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236 (510) 234-3397
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Early adopt

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Ed via cctalk" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 1:53 PM
Subject: RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer 
Early adopt


> 
> 
> 
> RIP  Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer
> 
> 
> Early  adopter
> by Andrew  Liptak
> 
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/9/16279582/jerry-pournelle-science-fiction-a
> uthor-writing-computers-obituary
> 
> 
> 
> sad  Ed#
>

Very sad indeed...

Slowly, one by one, our generation is becoming extinct...

m

RIP Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer Early adopt

[Ed via cctalk]

 
 
 
RIP  Jerry Pournelle, the first author to write a novel on a computer


Early  adopter
by Andrew  Liptak
 
 
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/9/16279582/jerry-pournelle-science-fiction-a
uthor-writing-computers-obituary
 
 
 
sad  Ed#

Re: Computers before Information Theory

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Brent Hilpert

> I have wondered just how much influence the latent theory that was
> around influenced the practical implementors of calculating machinery
> ...
> My impression is the implementors at the time arrived at stored-program
> machines far more out of practical necessity than trying to enact, or
> even being much aware of, the theory.

I suspect we'll never know for sure, because there may have been subconcious
stuff going on that even the people themselves were not aware of.

E.g. it's common to hear that 'Babbage had no influence on modern computers'.
But... Aiken was well aware of Babbage's work, and it's reasonable to think
that he had it in the back of his mind when doing the SSEC. And Aiken and the
SSEC were well known to the early computing pioneers, so there's a path from
Babbage to modern computers. Similarly for Turing's work - Turing and von
Neuman knew each other (their paths crossed on numerous occastions, starting
at the IAS in the late 30's, when Turing went there), and there are numerous
people who say he was very familiar with Turing's work.


> When/what/who was the actual first assembler conceived or produced?

A very good question indeed! Does anyone know?

I have this bit set that one early computer assigned the opcodes to make
sense as single characters; e.g. the ADD instruction would have had opcode
'A' (not in hex, this was before that). Alas, I can't find which one it was -
it's not the Pilot ACE; I checked, and that was always programmed direcly in
binary (by punching the program onto cards in binary, manually).


> However even before the stored-program machines, the Colossus machines
> (WWII) were more logic/symbol processors than numerical.

Bit of both, really - they did statistical work on streams of characters.

> Shannon was consulted during the design of SIGSALY, IIRC

Turing was consulted, too - but I think more in a role of checking the work,
rather than doing any himself. See "Enigma", pp. 246-248.


> That whole era of Nyquist/Shannon looking at the nature of information,
> Turing looking at highly abstract theory of symbol manipulation, and
> the implementors of calculating machines, that all came together to
> produce the modern computing and informatics world can be fascinating.

There's an excellent book which covers some of this ground, "Turing's
Cathedral", by George Dyson (son of Freeman).

Noel

Re: EBAY - DEC RX01/02 floppy disks -Andromeda Systems and AED utilities

[shadoooo via cctalk]

Hello,
I don't have any Andromeda hardware, but I think an easy solution would be
to ask to the eBay seller to ask to the buyer if he would be available to
be in contact with the group.
After all, it's very likely that he could be an enthusiast like us.
Then ask about imaging the disks...

Hoping that he has a PDP11 hardware, this not buying the disks for merely
reformat them for other machines...

Andrea

RE: Seeking VT180 floppy drive connection cable BC26K

[Henk Gooijen via cctalk]

Van: Henk Gooijen via cctalk
Verzonden: zaterdag 9 september 2017 06:55
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Onderwerp: Seeking VT180 floppy drive connection cable BC26K

Hi list readers,

I have a VT180 and two dual 5.25” floppy drive units.
I am not planning on connecting both drive boxes, just one.
From documentation, I understand that you need one BC26K
cable to connect the VT180 to the (first) floppy drive unit.

The cable is shielded and has at both ends a 37-pin sub-D connector.

First question.
Is the pin-out 1:1, that is pin #1 -> pin #1, pin #2 -> pin #2, etc.?

Second question.
If the pin-out is 1:1, then if I place the floppy drive unit on top of
the VT180, could I get away with a simple short 37-wire flat cable?
All even pins are IIRC “ground”, so crosstalk would be minimal.

Third question.
Does anybody have a BC26K for sale?
The original cable is of course the nicest option 

Thanks,
Henk
Update!!
I looked at my VT180 and the floppy drive box, and have to make
corrections to my earlier post.   The connector on the VT180 is a
37-pin sub-D, but the connector on the floppy drive unit is a DB-25!
So a 1:1 flatcable surely is not correct.
In EK-VT18X-TM-001 on page 3-37 is a table with the pins and
signals of the 37-pin sub-D.  An other correction: the *odd* pins are
connected to ground.

Finally, after google searching, I found Will Kranz’s
http://www.willsworks.net/pdp-11/vt1xx#VT180 page.
It lists the interconnection as follows.

I only show existing pins below, many slots were blank on both

ie db37: 1-5, 7,11,13,15,17,   |  db25  14,17-19

 29,32,33,35-37|



db37  db25

6   1

82

9  15

10  3

12  4

14  5

16  6

18  7

19 20

20  8

21 21

22  9

23 22

24 10

25 23

26 11

27 24

28 12

30 25

31 13

34 16

If somebody has the BC26K cable, could you check/verify these connections?
Then I can make my own connection cable and start CP/M on the VT180 …
Thanks,
Henk