[cctalk] Re: Back-plane wrap (was Re: Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction))

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

No, nobody else inquired about it.

I have no idea it will fit a DEC backplane; AFAIK it was used on NCR
systems. It might take me a while to find it; when I do I'll try to
determine the dimensions of the pins and the wire gauge.

On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 10:41 PM Ryan de Laplante (Personal) via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hey Mike,
>
> Did the wire wrap tool sell?   Is it any good for DEC backplanes?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On 2024-08-31 10:29 a.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> > If I can find it, is anyone interested in a battery-powered wire wrap
> tool?
> > Not sure of the diameter but it's larger than an IC socket, so I suspect
> > that it is in fact for a backplane.
> >
> > Postage from Toronto.
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 1:55 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 8/30/2024 7:25 PM, cz via cctalk wrote:
> >>> To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make an extended
> >>> memory controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire wrap backplane and
> >>> enough cards to make it work but I've never done wire-wrap on this sort
> >>> of scale.
> >>>
> >>> I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of wire. Is there
> >>> any sites that discuss how to do reasonable wire-wrapping?
> >> Some of the older (single-sided especially) DEC back-planes were wrapped
> >> with heavier gauge wire, which needs a different tool. The newer
> >> back-planes seem to be wrapped with 30 gauge wire. You can tell the old
> >> connector blocks, as the pins appear rectangular, rather then square.
> >>
> >> There are all kinds of opportunity for optimizing routing for distance,
> >> cross-talk and and other esoterica. One thing that's worth doing,
> >> though, is to wrap for a max height of two, and such that all the
> >> connections (except possibly the last end of a given signal) are at the
> >> same height. So, if A B C and D are to be connected together, you
> >> connect A to B, then C to D (thus all at the lower level), then put the
> >> connection of B to C at a higher level. This dramatically cuts down on
> >> the amount you have to *unwrap* to fix something. Avoid situations which
> >> cross the height boundary, because then you have to keep unwrapping
> >> stuff you'd rather not, to expose the buried lower side.
> >>
> >> If you are wrapping by hand, you can be assured that you *will* make
> >> mistakes and have to fix something.
> >>
> >> I predict you will also find that you are really sick of wire-wrap long
> >> before you are done. These days, PCBs are inexpensive, and less error
> >> prone (in the sense that you almost always end up with exactly the
> >> connections in the netlist). OTOH, connectors are expensive and hard to
> >> reuse when soldered to a PCB. So you've got to be really confident of
> >> your netlist.
> >>
> >> You might consider investing in a tool where you pull the trigger to do
> >> the wrap. You'll probably get a more consistent result, and
> >> significantly fewer repetitive motion issues.
> >>
> >> Hope that helps!
> >>
> >>  Vince
> >>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: auction starting in 50 minutes

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Available at the curb in front of my house for free, with spare ribbons and
balls...

On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 9:19 PM cctalk--- via cctalk 
wrote:

> Saw a pair of Selectric typewriters went for $8k. Available on eBay for
> 200-400.
>

[cctalk] Re: Punch card info

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I actually used the 046 non-printing version back in the day to convert PPT
to 80 col. cards, although I didn't deal with the tape it produced; cool
machine.

https://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Training/Card_Equipment_Summary_Aug57.pdf

On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 at 11:20 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Sep 2024, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
>
> > There is a 47 tape to card punch
>
> I don't think that I ever saw one of those.
> Was it IBM?
> When was it available?
>
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>

[cctalk] Re: Back-plane wrap (was Re: Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction))

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

If I can find it, is anyone interested in a battery-powered wire wrap tool?
Not sure of the diameter but it's larger than an IC socket, so I suspect
that it is in fact for a backplane.

Postage from Toronto.

On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 1:55 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 8/30/2024 7:25 PM, cz via cctalk wrote:
> > To try and turn this thread around: I'm looking to make an extended
> > memory controller for my pdp8/L. I've got a wire wrap backplane and
> > enough cards to make it work but I've never done wire-wrap on this sort
> > of scale.
> >
> > I've got an old Radio Shack Wire wrap tool and a lot of wire. Is there
> > any sites that discuss how to do reasonable wire-wrapping?
>
> Some of the older (single-sided especially) DEC back-planes were wrapped
> with heavier gauge wire, which needs a different tool. The newer
> back-planes seem to be wrapped with 30 gauge wire. You can tell the old
> connector blocks, as the pins appear rectangular, rather then square.
>
> There are all kinds of opportunity for optimizing routing for distance,
> cross-talk and and other esoterica. One thing that's worth doing,
> though, is to wrap for a max height of two, and such that all the
> connections (except possibly the last end of a given signal) are at the
> same height. So, if A B C and D are to be connected together, you
> connect A to B, then C to D (thus all at the lower level), then put the
> connection of B to C at a higher level. This dramatically cuts down on
> the amount you have to *unwrap* to fix something. Avoid situations which
> cross the height boundary, because then you have to keep unwrapping
> stuff you'd rather not, to expose the buried lower side.
>
> If you are wrapping by hand, you can be assured that you *will* make
> mistakes and have to fix something.
>
> I predict you will also find that you are really sick of wire-wrap long
> before you are done. These days, PCBs are inexpensive, and less error
> prone (in the sense that you almost always end up with exactly the
> connections in the netlist). OTOH, connectors are expensive and hard to
> reuse when soldered to a PCB. So you've got to be really confident of
> your netlist.
>
> You might consider investing in a tool where you pull the trigger to do
> the wrap. You'll probably get a more consistent result, and
> significantly fewer repetitive motion issues.
>
> Hope that helps!
>
> Vince
>

[cctalk] Re: MS-DOS am I the only person who liked the win 3.1 UI?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Don't forget about CMD and the Power Shell...

On Wed, Jul 31, 2024 at 10:33 AM CAREY SCHUG via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Am i the ONLY person who preferred the win 3.1 user interface?  Probably, 
> since I have never seen one like it on linux, and everybody else complains 
> about it.
>
> 1. I don't like "active anything" that pops up when I move the mouse one 
> pixel further than I intended, or hides itself just as I am clicking on it so 
> the click goes through to something behind, unintended.  and don't get me 
> started on when I am resizing and go one pixel past the edge, so it 
> maximizes...across all my displays.  sometimes takes me 3-5 attempts to 
> resize one window to almost fill one physical display.  i think the 
> maximizing across multiple displays is only a winblows problem.
>
> 2. I could customize groupings in program manager:
> --this group is all things related to the newsletter I prepare monthly, 
> including the actual document, background info, program to print it, browser 
> with related information, etc.  for the 3 days per month I work on it, and 
> keeps out of my way the rest of the time.
> --or this group is only brought up in the spring, with items for planning my 
> garden.  but I might also bring it up briefly in the autumn when I see some 
> special seeds I never heard about before.
> --the groupings helped for seldom used files/programs whose name I have 
> trouble remembering...just bring up the group and it is there
> --program manager was always there when I wanted it, or got hidden when I 
> didn't
>
> 3. file manager had features I maybe could find now but have not, such as
> --tiling *or* cascading several directories, and dragging files from one to 
> another, harder to set up with tabs or multiple instances of file manager.
> --(maybe its fond memories, but I think I could) select several files and 
> sort ONLY THEM, leaving the others unmoved,
> --sort on file extension,
> --sort with wildcards (probably can, just my ignorance?)
> --show date and time even for not the last 24 hour files (I think I did find 
> such a file manager, but it lacked some other critical functions, or crashed 
> all the time.
>
> two really big plusses afaik only in linux:
> --I can expand a subdirectory now without jumping completely to it, which win 
> 3.1 could not do
> --also like that when attaching to an email, or opening, I can select from 
> "recently used"
>
> another wish (for winblows or linux) if it was like Dos/win3.1, where you 
> boot do a dos prompt, it would be nice if I could bring up the graphical 
> interface with &, and then bring up a second onemaybe a different, one or 
> with different options...especially now that I have multiple display 
> adapters, a win 3.1 like UI on one monitor, and a current UI on on the other 
> monitor, then from either drag application windows to a third monitor.

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

"I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost"

Might be worth investigating MyUS.

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 7:42 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Brexit made a big difference to postage costs from EU to UK but I don't
> think affected US costs much. However eBay's US all-inclusive postage
> seemed very expensive compared with USPS, and many sellers using
> independent methods have now got very expensive too. I'm not sure if prices
> have risen to match or if there's some other influence.
> Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen
> somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. I think eBay and
> Aliexpress are managing (surcharging) the increased import costs that UK
> and other governments are imposing.
>
> I recall getting a huge 16500B from the US a few years ago for a fairly
> reasonable shipping cost but now just the plug-in cards have shipping
> prices of $100 - often more than the card.
>
> I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost. Postage
> costs are a major factor at the moment and I rarely need things fast.
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:42 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28 PM ben via cctalk 
> > wrote:
> > > On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> > > > Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South
> > > > Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad
> > > > then.
> >
> > Mike, I do remember.  I still have that motherboard on the shelf over
> > my work area at home.  I never did get a stable composite adapter made
> > down there (I had to work with the parts I had on hand).  The board
> > was fine but the output was shaky because of my adapter.
> >
> > The postage was just Toronto to SFO because it went via APO box.
> >
> > > Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole
> > > nobody ships stuff back. :)
> >
> > Because of the Antarctic Conservation Act of 1978, everything that
> > goes down has to go back.  There's millions of pounds of sorted waste
> > that goes North on the cargo vessel every year, including the category
> > "Electronic Scrap".
> >
> > -ethan
> >

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Not an unreasonable idea with today's drones...

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 10:51 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On 7/1/24 19:04, Wayne S wrote:
> > Hda weighs about 50lbs so you aren’t carrying it very far.
>
> Well, a trebuchet then.  How wide is the Detroit river at its narrowest?
>
> Seriously, the US-Canada border is over 5,000 miles long, with plenty of
> opportunity for slipping stuff across, even if it's just tossed over
> someone's backyard fence.
>
> Point Roberts, WA is notable for being accessible by land only by
> traveling through Canada.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Ask Ethan; I suppose a lot of stuff did actually get left behind.

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28 PM ben via cctalk  wrote:
>
> On 2024-07-01 6:04 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> > Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South
> > Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad
> > then.
> >
> Hey there must be lots of vintage stuff at the south pole
> nobody ships stuff back. :)
>
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Odd; in my experience shipping US to Canada is generally cheaper than
in the opposite direction. I'm still amazed by the rates from China;
maybe it's cheaper to send from Canada to someone in China and have
them send it back to the US ;-)

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:02 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 4:12 PM ben via cctalk  wrote:
>
> >
> > Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA.
> > Now it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA.
> > I expect to pay for shipping from China for bulk things like
> > bypass caps, the same as the cost of the part.
> > It was $5.00 for shipping for The Baker's Scoop Seasoned Frying Flour
> > 3.5 Lb (Pack of 2) off Amazon.
> >
>
> Shipping from USA to Canada is almost if not as or even more expensive than
> shipping to Europe sometimes.  Not so much in the reverse direction, which
> is weird--when I buy something on eBay from Canada the shipping is not that
> bad.
>
> None of it makes sense, which leads me to believe it's because it's all
> based on the politics of stupid.
>
> Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I've had the same experience with folks in Australia & NZ,
accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough to ship it down
under.

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:07 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 2:12 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
> >  wrote:
> > > ... vendors mostly
> > > refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's
> > > abroad.
> >
> > If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain.
> > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in
> > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because
> > they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the
> > Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in
> > 2024 dollars).  I declined their "help" and the package went back to
> > the seller to fix.
> >
> > I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear.
> >
> > -ethan
> >
>
> I have a trading buddy in England.  I search eBay UK for stuff I'm seeking
> and he also keeps an eye out for stuff he knows I like, and he buys it for
> me and has it shipped to his place (shipping is very cheap within the UK).
> Once enough stuff is accumulated  on his end, he packs it all together and
> sends it as one big bundle, which saves immensely on shipping, but it's
> still kinda pricey.  This all works in reverse too, of course.
>
> Suggestion: find yourself a UK or Euro-based trading buddy.
>
> I'm not sure what happened--it probably had something to do with Brexit, or
> the Biden admin--but I remember it being a lot more reasonable to ship
> across the pond both ways pre-2020.
>
> Sellam

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

A few years ago some kind soul sent me a couple of 5 1/4" HS Vector
Graphic diskettes from Minnesota to Toronto; as I recall, it cost him
about U$2.00. After copying them I forwarded them to another VG owner
in Winnipeg, a few hundred miles from the original sender, and it cost
C$10.00!

Australia and  New Zealand are pretty costly as well; you really have
to want whatever it is ;-)

And don't talk to me about UPS or other customs brokers!

m

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:12 PM ben via cctalk  wrote:
>
> On 2024-07-01 3:06 p.m., Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
> >  wrote:
> >> ... vendors mostly
> >> refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's
> >> abroad.
> >
> > If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain.
> > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in
> > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because
> > they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the
> > Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in
> > 2024 dollars).  I declined their "help" and the package went back to
> > the seller to fix.
> >
> > I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear.
> >
> > -ethan
>
> Things have not improved for shipping to CANADA from the USA.
> Now it is $80 for $2.0 chip from the USA.
> I expect to pay for shipping from China for bulk things like
> bypass caps, the same as the cost of the part.
> It was $5.00 for shipping for The Baker's Scoop Seasoned Frying Flour
> 3.5 Lb (Pack of 2) off Amazon.
>
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures"

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South
Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad
then.

Canada to US customs forms (just one, actually) have actually been
simplified, but alas, postage rates are still outrageous.

m

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 5:12 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > ... vendors mostly
> > refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's
> > abroad.
>
> If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain.
> Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in
> Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because
> they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the
> Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in
> 2024 dollars).  I declined their "help" and the package went back to
> the seller to fix.
>
> I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear.
>
> -ethan

[cctalk] Re: Lunar Lander, bug

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

"Lunar Lander games abound on every platform"

For sure! I even have a copy on tape somewhere for the Burroughs L
series machines, but unfortunately I'm not aware of any of those still
working; there was an L7xxx and also an L5xxx and L9xxx, but AFAIK
they're display only.


On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 4:07 PM John Robertson via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On 2024/06/17 12:26 p.m., Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 1:53 PM Mike Katz via cctalk
> >   wrote:
> >> I remember running this program at school in the mid 1970's.
> >>
> >> This runs on 4K Focal '69 without the extended functions enabled. So it
> >> should run on a 4K PDP-8/L.
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >> It was available as FOCAL8-81 from DECUS (Submitted 20-Jan-1970):
> > https://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/pdp8/src/decus/focal8-81/
> >
> > I have run this at VCF on a 4K PDP-8.
> >
> > -ethan
>
> Fascinating - and there was a video game made by Atari called Lunar
> Lander which also tried to put a LEM safely on the surface.
>
> Some more of the history of the games (from 2009):
>
> technologizer.com
>
> Forty Years of Lunar Lander <#>
>
> Lunar Lander games abound on every platform. Along with Tetris and
> Pac-Man, the game--in which your mission is to safely maneuver your
> lunar module onto the moon's surface--is one of the most widely cloned
> computer games of all time. But did you know that game players began
> touching down on the moon in Lunar Lander…
>
> 🔗 https://technologizer.com/2009/07/19/lunar-lander/index.html
> 
>
>   John :-#)#
>
>
> --
>   John's Jukes Ltd.
> 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
> Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
>   flippers.com
>   "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
>

[cctalk] Re: First Personal Computer

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Not sure I share your definition of 'fun'...

On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 8:29 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 2:06 AM John Herron via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Only because I thought it would be funny to hear ChatGPT's wrong answer.
> > Here is ChatGPT's answer on the first personal computer.
> >
> > ME> What was the first personal computer?
> > ChatGPT> The first personal computer is a bit of a debated topic, but one
> > of the earliest and most influential examples is the Altair 8800, released
> > in 1975. It was developed by a company called MITS (Micro Instrumentation
> > and Telemetry Systems). The Altair 8800 was a build-it-yourself kit based
> > on the Intel 8080 microprocessor, and it featured toggle switches and LED
> > lights for input and output. This computer is often credited with sparking
> > the microcomputer revolution and inspiring a generation of computer
> > enthusiasts, including a young Bill Gates and Paul Allen, who famously
> > developed a version of the BASIC programming language for the Altair.
> >
> > (Pouring gas on the fire, but thought it was funny.)
> >
> >
> I honestly do agree that in our modern PC world, prior to the smartphone
> anyway, the first major micorprocessor-driven microcomputer that was
> successful in the US is the Altair.
>
> This would be a fun topic for a series of online debates.  There seem to be
> a few angles
>
> 1)  First microcomputer of the modern style (desktop computer running
> home/small business applications)
> 2)  First computer that was primarily used as a personal computer but not
> necessarily practically or large-scale
> 3)  First inadvertent use of a computer as a personal computer (i.e. first
> application developed for personal use on a machine not originally designed
> for such a purpose)
>
> more?
>
> BIl

[cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Thanks for the info! Missed that the several times I looked at that.

On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 4:51 PM Glen Slick  wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 27, 2024, 12:56 PM Mike Stein via cctalk  
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> (BTW, what's the
>> difference between the 68764 and the 68766?)
>
>
> From what I can tell from a quick look at the datasheets, on the 68764 the /E 
> pin is both a low power mode pin and an output enable pin, while on the 68766 
> the /G pin in just an output enable pin.
>
> So there might be less average power consumed when using the 68764, but the 
> 68766 data output valid from /G might be quicker than the 68764 data output 
> valid from /E if the address lines are stable earlier than /E or /G are 
> asserted.
>

[cctalk] Re: Help? Programming SCM90448 EPROMs

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

There's also the unusual, little known but readily available and
programmable TMS2564 (Vpp also 25V, alas); it (sort of) stayed with
the original ROM/EPROM pinouts when everyone else switched to the
JEDEC standard as more pins became needed.

It's a 28 pin 8K x 8 EPROM, but the upper 24 pins are pin-compatible
with the MCM68764/6 and many 24 pin 8K x 8 ROMS (BTW, what's the
difference between the 68764 and the 68766?)

Of course you need the room for the extra 4 pins hanging off the end
and a jumper to the extra chip selects, but it's definitely an option,
especially as the Moto parts are getting scarce. I believe there's
also a Hitachi (?) version equivalent to the 6876x but I can't find
the number at the moment; probably even more obscure...

m

On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 11:35 AM jos via cctalk  wrote:
>
>
>
> Gents, please be aware of the WSI 57C49 Eprom, 8Kx8 in a 24 pin DIP
> It can go low as 25nS access time.
>
> Note that addresslines A10,A11 and A12 are swapped, so the contents needs to 
> be moved accordingly.
> I used the C program below to create replacements for some Tektronix 4052 ROMS
>
>
> Jos
>
>
>
>
>
> #include 
> #include 
>
> /*
>   * radapt 
>   *
>   * quick hack to transpose rom inages from mk36000 to wsi57c49
>   * These are pincombatible except for A10, A11 and A12
>   *
>   */
>
> #defineK8 8192
> #defineK1 1024
>
> unsigned char in[K8], out[K8];
>
> void move(int a, int b)
> { int i;
> printf("%d %d\n",a,b);
> for (i=0;i   out[b*K1+i]=in[a*K1+i];
>
> }
>
>
> int main(int argc,char *argv[])
> {
>int i=0;
>
>int c;
>FILE *fptr;
>
>
>
>fptr=fopen(argv[1],"rb");
>  { if (!fptr)
> printf("Unable to open file %s\n",argv[1]);
>else
>{ while( (c=fgetc(fptr)) !=EOF )
>{ in[i]=c; i++;}
>  fclose(fptr);
>  if (i!=K8)
>  {  printf("incorrect input file size, must be %d, not 
> %d\n",K8,i);
> exit(-1); }
>  move(0,0);
>  move(1,2);
>  move(2,4);
>  move(3,6);
>  move(4,1);
>  move(5,3);
>  move(6,5);
>  move(7,7);
>  fptr=fopen("out.bin","w");
>  for (i=0;ifputc(out[i],fptr);
>  fclose(fptr);
> printf("Output file out.bin written\nmv out.bin %s\n",argv[1]);
>  };
>};
> }
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

You're right in that the IBM unit record batch EAM stuff is mainly
'only' interesting in a historical sense (although ISTR that there
were a (very) few games that you could play on them); they evolved
into the mainframes we know and love.

I find them interesting from a 'system' PoV: when you're in a room
with one of these it's like physically being inside a large computer;
there's a separate machine to sort data, another to merge files,
another to do calculations, one to update files, another to add,
subtract and print, etc., with the operator acting as the 'bus' by
carrying decks of cards (data) from one machine to the next. Gives you
a different perspective on data processing.

But the 'manual' accounting machines also evolved into 'real'
computers, but smaller and really no different from an S100 system
except for the physical configuration (e.g. the integrated
keyboard/printer). The later Burroughs L & B series had card cages and
removable cards about the same size and functions as S100, used
cassette, diskette and paper tape I/O, could communicated with remote
systems and could be programmed in machine language, assembler, report
generator or even high level languages such as Cobol. Yes, there was a
Lunar Lander program!

m

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 12:30 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 9:13 AM Mike Stein via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> > What I find a little sad is that the accounting machine world has been
> > almost entirely ignored.
> >
> > The punched card batch processing systems such as IBM's 402/403/407
> > machines and peripherals are documented and even still in existence here
> > and there, but the manual entry machines that could once be found in every
> > bank branch or small office and were the foundations of computer companies
> > like Burroughs, NCR etc. have largely disappeared and are pretty sparsely
> > documented.
> >
> > It's quite interesting to follow their evolution from motor-driven purely
> > mechanical monsters full of cams, levers and springs corresponding to and
> > actually called accumulators, registers etc. to completely solid state
> > electronic systems with disk and tape drives, displays and terminals, line
> > printers, communication capability, PPT and punched card devices etc. etc.
> >
> > Along the way there were many interesting innovations like small 96 column
> > punched cards, magnetic striped ledger cards and automatic feeder/stackers,
> > multiple cassette drives equivalent to the open reel versions, custom
> > devices like the 'core counter' (a non-volatile electro-magnetic device
> > that emitted a pulse for every 10 input pulses) etc.; a shame that so
> > little documentation and examples remain today.
> >
>
> Before my dreams were derailed, I was working on acquiring and assembling a
> complete punched card data processing set up, just to experience it.
>
> It would be fun to do such if I still had the resources and the time and
> nothing else to do, but it takes a lot of time and resources, whereas an
> old digital computer, even some of the big power hungry beasts of the 60s,
> can still do something more interesting than just move paper around.
>
> I would compare it to the reason why interest in old radios peaked and then
> died out in the 2000s: all the people who had an interest in that stuff
> passed on; and there's only so much an old radio can do.  It can receive
> and deliver an audio signal, poorly.  That's an activity one might rather
> enjoy on modern equipment.  The same with old punched card equipment.  It's
> fun to run cards through it, but other than that, most people don't even
> get what it's doing.  It's doing one thing of the whole "computing"
> process, poorly.  There's no much interest in that, and only so many people
> can devote the space, power, and maintenance to an entire punched card data
> processing setup.
>
> That being said, I believe the Haus zur Geschichte der IBM
> Datenverarbeitung (House of the History of IBM Data Processing) in
> Sindelfingen, Germany may still be demonstrating that very thing, or at
> least they were when I visited in the mid-2000s with Hans Franke.
>
> Here's an old article about it ==>
> https://www.smh.com.au/technology/history-galore-at-ibm-museum-20050201-gdkljv.html
>
> Sellam

[cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

In my post about the accounting machine era I forgot to mention that
of course they were all programmable; the mechanical versions used
different length pins, sometimes custom made with a special tool, that
went into a 'magazine' to define the various columns and the
operations to be performed there; as electronics started to take over,
patch panels full of jumper wires (just like IBM's EAM panels)
appeared, and finally 'soft' programming appeared with assemblers,
report generators and 'high' level languages cross-compiled on larger
systems.

Programs were loaded by inserting a 'magazine' (usually about 30" long
and weighing about 10 lbs.), inserting a patch panel, or the 'modern
way' from punched cards*, paper tape, magnetic cards, mag tape or
cassette, diskette or even remotely.

*Another innovation was the 'Edge punched card', a card normally the
size of an 80 column Hollerith card but with 8-column paper tape
punched holes along the edge so it could be read with a PPT reader.

A shame that there isn't a video anywhere of an operator entering data
into a Burroughs L9000 and then processing it with 4 cassettes
spinning back and forth like their big brothers, automatically feeding
ledger cards through the console and the external high-speed reader,
printing a log and reports on the dual console printer and the
external high-speed printer, maybe sending summary data to a remote
system etc., while the operator takes a coffee break.

BTW, AFAIK the Burroughs B80 and B90 were the last machines of this
class and the only ones with (8") diskette drives; does anyone know of
any later ones?

m

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 11:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their 
> thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a Google 
> engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I think she 
> was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with the party 
> host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the early days of 
> computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on. What I found 
> disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost ignorance about 
> computing history or even early computers. Except for their recall of the 3.5 
> floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely nothing else that they 
> were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a sign that our living 
> version of classical personal computing, in which many of us here in this 
> group witnessed the invention of personal computing in the 70s, will stop 
> with our generation. I assume that the most engaging folks in this newsgroup 
> are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to anyone. I am turning fifty 
> myself)  I sense that no other generation following this user group's 
> generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or 
> anything deemed exciting in computing. Is there hope, or is this the end of 
> the line for the most exciting era of personal computers? Thoughts?
>
> Regards,
> Tarek Hoteit
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Thirties techies and computing history

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

What I find a little sad is that the accounting machine world has been
almost entirely ignored.

The punched card batch processing systems such as IBM's 402/403/407
machines and peripherals are documented and even still in existence here
and there, but the manual entry machines that could once be found in every
bank branch or small office and were the foundations of computer companies
like Burroughs, NCR etc. have largely disappeared and are pretty sparsely
documented.

It's quite interesting to follow their evolution from motor-driven purely
mechanical monsters full of cams, levers and springs corresponding to and
actually called accumulators, registers etc. to completely solid state
electronic systems with disk and tape drives, displays and terminals, line
printers, communication capability, PPT and punched card devices etc. etc.

Along the way there were many interesting innovations like small 96 column
punched cards, magnetic striped ledger cards and automatic feeder/stackers,
multiple cassette drives equivalent to the open reel versions, custom
devices like the 'core counter' (a non-volatile electro-magnetic device
that emitted a pulse for every 10 input pulses) etc.; a shame that so
little documentation and examples remain today.

m

On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 11:28 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> A friend of a friend had a birthday gathering. Everyone there was in their
> thirties, except for myself, my wife, and our friend. Anyway, I met a
> Google engineer, a Microsoft data scientist, an Amazon AWS recruiter (I
> think she was a recruiter), and a few others in tech who are friends with
> the party host. I had several conversations about computer origins, the
> early days of computing, its importance in what we have today, and so on.
> What I found disappointing and saddening at the same time is their utmost
> ignorance about computing history or even early computers. Except for their
> recall of the 3.5 floppy or early 2000’s Windows, there was absolutely
> nothing else that they were familiar with. That made me wonder if this is a
> sign that our living version of classical personal computing, in which many
> of us here in this group witnessed the invention of personal computing in
> the 70s, will stop with our generation. I assume that the most engaging
> folks in this newsgroup are in their fifties and beyond. (No offense to
> anyone. I am turning fifty myself)  I sense that no other generation
> following this user group's generation will ever talk about Altairs, CP/M
> s, PDPs, S100 buses, Pascal, or anything deemed exciting in computing. Is
> there hope, or is this the end of the line for the most exciting era of
> personal computers? Thoughts?
>
> Regards,
> Tarek Hoteit
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: FWIW CD & DVD demagnitizitation [was: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks]

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

How much extra to turn my deadly lead pipes into gold while you're here?

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 12:43 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 8:53 AM Mike Katz via cctalk  >
> wrote:
>
> > This is an article on it but I still think it's total bunk:
> >
> > https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/cd-dvd-demagnetization/
>
>
> "There is now research to suggest that demagnetization of computer discs
> (including CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD, DVD-R, and other similar disc
> media) *result
> in reduced block error rates*."
>
> It's still the same data coming off the medium, whether it has reduced
> block error rates or not.
>
> This is so comically horseshitient that I'm just going to go revolutionize
> audio with bold new claims that I'm an Audio Shaman that can exorcise your
> gear to clean it of the dark spirits that are haunting your audio signal,
> introducing "audio ghosting" that possesses the listener and affects how
> they perceive and therefore hear the music.  I will change the listener's
> perception by spiritually cleansing their equipment.
>
> For $9,999 (plus room and board in the most lavish local hotel) I will
> visit you in person and conduct the ceremony in front of your setup.  And
> change your perception.
>
> Taking bookings now, don't wait as slots fill up fast.
>
> Sellam
>

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Radio Shack sold two models: the original, suitable for cassettes and audio
tapes, and a later, larger and more powerful version for video tapes as
well (44-233A). I keep one of those plugged in beside my desk and still use
it fairly often, but I'm planning to build one of Chuck's one of these days
(that one minute on, 30 minute off (officially ;-) duty cycle is a PITA if
you're degaussing a bunch of disks).

On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 9:42 PM Mike Katz via cctalk 
wrote:

> I also have one of those from Radio Shack that I have had for more than
> 30 years.
>
> On 5/6/2024 8:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > On 5/6/24 15:12, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> Radio Shack used to sell a "Bulk Tape Eraser".  I gave mine to the
> college.
> >> Those are on eBay, and even Amazon.
> >>
> > I've had one of those for years. Resembles a kitchen Mixmaster without
> > the beaters.   The problem is that it has a limited working period of
> > about a minute before it gets too hot and the thermal cutout stops the
> fun.
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
> >
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Thanks, Paul,

I'm aware of the 9114A and B versions and some of the differences, but I'm
wondering whether my 9114 is identical to the 9114A.

Is it maybe like World War I  which was just 'The Great War' until WW
II came along; same war, different name.

m

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 12:38 AM Paul Berger via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> As Mike said there are two models 9114A and 9114B, they are functionally
> equivalent, however the B model uses a 1/2 high drive mechanism and I
> believe there are changes to the controller as well, but I have only
> seen the inside of a B model.
>
> Paul.
>
> On 2024-04-30 8:29 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
> > I am not familiar with a 9114 only the 9114A and 9114B.
> >
> > On 4/30/2024 6:15 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
> >> Just wondering: I see 9114 and 9114A being used interchangeably (mine
> >> are 9114s); are they the same or actually different drives?
> >>
> >> m
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 5:39 PM Mike Katz via cctalk
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> Thank you for your help.
> >>
> >> That is the command I am using on the 41 to try and format the disk.
> >> With a directory size of 60.
> >>
> >> On 4/30/2024 4:22 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
> >> > Also this article refers to a set of commands for this drive.
> >> The NEWM command formats a new disk.
> >> > Link is
> >> https://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=78
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my iPhone
> >> >
> >> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 14:07, Wayne S 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > What kind of floppies did Hp recommend to use with this drive?
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my iPhone
> >> >
> >> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 13:55, Fred Cisin via cctalk
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
> >> > Yup, that's all I used to do. Some scotch tape over the floppy
> >> disk hole to
> >> > make the system see it as DD. If it didn't automatically format
> >> as 720, you
> >> > could specify size or sector count with format.com
> >>  in dos.
> >> >
> >> > Somemedia sensors are optical; use opaque taps.
> >> >
> >> > I did hear folks say it wasn't always reliable (similar to 5.25
> >> disks being
> >> > formated on a high density drive) but I never saw any problems
> >> in my
> >> > limited use.
> >> >
> >> > 3.5" are 600 VS 750 oersted;
> >> > 5.25" are 300 vs 600 Oersted;
> >> > a low density 5.25 formatted as "high density" won't do well;
> >> > a high density 5.25" (1.2M) formatted as low density ("360K")
> >> sill self erase VERY soon, sometimes before you can even get it
> >> over to another machine.  We had a college purchasing agent in bed
> >> with "Roytype", who kept giving us "1.2M" floppies ofr out TRS80s;
> >> they self erased very soon.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
> >>
>

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Just wondering: I see 9114 and 9114A being used interchangeably (mine are
9114s); are they the same or actually different drives?

m


On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 5:39 PM Mike Katz via cctalk 
wrote:

> Thank you for your help.
>
> That is the command I am using on the 41 to try and format the disk.
> With a directory size of 60.
>
> On 4/30/2024 4:22 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
> > Also this article refers to a set of commands for this drive. The NEWM
> command formats a new disk.
> > Link is
> https://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=78
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 14:07, Wayne S  wrote:
> >
> > What kind of floppies did Hp recommend to use with this drive?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Apr 30, 2024, at 13:55, Fred Cisin via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
> > Yup, that's all I used to do. Some scotch tape over the floppy disk hole
> to
> > make the system see it as DD. If it didn't automatically format as 720,
> you
> > could specify size or sector count with format.com in dos.
> >
> > Somemedia sensors are optical; use opaque taps.
> >
> > I did hear folks say it wasn't always reliable (similar to 5.25 disks
> being
> > formated on a high density drive) but I never saw any problems in my
> > limited use.
> >
> > 3.5" are 600 VS 750 oersted;
> > 5.25" are 300 vs 600 Oersted;
> > a low density 5.25 formatted as "high density" won't do well;
> > a high density 5.25" (1.2M) formatted as low density ("360K") sill self
> erase VERY soon, sometimes before you can even get it over to another
> machine.  We had a college purchasing agent in bed with "Roytype", who kept
> giving us "1.2M" floppies ofr out TRS80s; they self erased very soon.
> >
> > --
> > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I could probably spare a few disks, but postage from Canada is outrageous;
let me know if no one else comes up with any.

m

On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 4:07 PM Mike Katz via cctalk 
wrote:

> Thank you for trying to help.  My situation is unusual at best and I'm
> apologize for the extra bandwidth my question is causing.
>
> I am formatting the floppies in an HP-9114A battery operated floppy
> drive connected to an HP-41 calculator over the HP_IL serial interface.
>
> The HP9114A drive uses a modified Sony 3.5" floppy drive running at 600
> RPM instead of the normal 300 RPM.  This is an extremely unusual
> configuration that is different from any PC/MAC/Commodore/Amiga situation.
>
> I have been working with floppies since 1980.  I have written floppy low
> level formatters (WD1771 & WD1791 controllers).  I currently use a
> greaseweasel connected to a pair of 8" drives to create and copy
> floppies for the RX02 on my PDP-8.  I fully understand about density and
> number of tracks, sectors per track, tracks per inch, fm/mfm/gcr
> encoding, etc.
>
> I'm sure if I tried enough 1.44MB floppies I would find a few that might
> work on the HP9114A drive.  However, that was not my question.
>
> I am looking for a dozen or two Double Sided, Double Density 720K
> (formatted capacity) disks to use with this drive.
>
> I appreciate all of the suggestions and help but let's keep the
> bandwidth down and take any floppy compatibility discussions off of the
> group.
>
> Than you again everyone for offering to help,
>
>Mike
>
> On 4/30/2024 2:41 PM, Wayne S wrote:
> > What errors are you seeing?
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Apr 30, 2024, at 12:29, Mike Katz via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have tried bulk erasing 1.44 MB disks and they still won't format in
> the HP9114A battery operated HP-IL Floppy Disk drive.
> >>
> >>> On 4/30/2024 12:20 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
>  On 30/04/2024 18:08, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> 
>  Having grown up with 1.44MB 3.5" floppies, I have a question: is it
>  possible to use a 1.44MB disk and just format it as a 720K disk?
> >>> I think it's entirely possible. I'd definitely format them in a 720kb
> drive though to be extra safe. Though original 720KB disks
> written/formatted  in 1.44MB drives seem perfectly cromulent from my
> experience.
> >>>
> >>> However don't quote me on it, The only double density drives i have
> are super early Sony ones built in 1982 and they get pampered with NOS
> 720kb media (with the sliders sellotaped open because no auto opening
> shutters on my drives!)
> >>>
> >>> Josh Rice
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Double Density 3.5" Floppy Disks

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Should work; DD and HD are pretty similar, unlike the 5.25 versions. Did
you cover the density hole?

With what are you using that 9114A drive? And where are you located?

I've got a couple of 9114s; I'll have to try HD disks (if I can find the
drives ;-)

m

On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 3:29 PM Mike Katz via cctalk 
wrote:

> I have tried bulk erasing 1.44 MB disks and they still won't format in
> the HP9114A battery operated HP-IL Floppy Disk drive.
>
> On 4/30/2024 12:20 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
> > On 30/04/2024 18:08, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >> Having grown up with 1.44MB 3.5" floppies, I have a question: is it
> >> possible to use a 1.44MB disk and just format it as a 720K disk?
> >
> > I think it's entirely possible. I'd definitely format them in a 720kb
> > drive though to be extra safe. Though original 720KB disks
> > written/formatted  in 1.44MB drives seem perfectly cromulent from my
> > experience.
> >
> > However don't quote me on it, The only double density drives i have
> > are super early Sony ones built in 1982 and they get pampered with NOS
> > 720kb media (with the sliders sellotaped open because no auto opening
> > shutters on my drives!)
> >
> > Josh Rice
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Other input devices.

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I scrapped a similar Redactron mag card Selectric unit 30-odd years ago;
still have the card drives, shoulda kept the Selectric.

On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 3:47 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 4/13/24 11:22, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote:
> >>> On Apr 12, 2024, at 9:55 PM, ben via cctalk 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Did any one ever use a keyboard to magtape as input device?
> >>
> >> My wife did, sort of: for a while she worked with IBM MT/ST word
> >> processors.  Those were very early word processing systems that used a
> >> custom magnetic tape cartridge for storage and a Selectric typewriter
> for
> >> I/O.
>
> The mag card Selectric (MC/ST) was relatively popular also.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: WTB: Cromemco System Zero

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

While we're on the subject, a lot of folks (including the S100 site)
confuse Cromemco's System 1 (CS-1) with their Z-1; the Z-1 was the rebadged
IMSAI box while the CS-1 and CS-1H System Ones were Cromemco designs.

On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 1:06 PM Jonathan Chapman via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > I had no idea they made a System Zero. I have a System One FWIW.
>
> Apparently a lot of folks, even those actively hacking on S-100 stuff,
> don't know about the System Zero! I've had a number of folks say as much.
> It's definitely a real product, I had a purchase lined up for one a few
> years ago, but the seller stopped responding to emails (I suspect someone
> else came in and bought everything). That seller had worked on integrating
> Cromemco hardware for industrial control usage, and had used a bunch of the
> System Zero boxes in his time for the purpose. The SCC with 3K Control
> BASIC plus whatever additional memory or I/O made for a compact little
> control box with industrial strength design, apparently.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>

[cctalk] Re: Cleanup time again

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Is there a manufacturer's equivalent number for an RX-1DB?

On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 1:49 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> In case it piques someone's interest, a number of the used disks
> in the SB style carriers are 9GB RX1DB's .  Even I had forgotten
> that any of them were that big.  Of course, the probably eliminates
> their use on a PDP or VAX but they are still Ultra Wide SCSI if you
> take them out of the box.  :-)
>
> bill
>

[cctalk] Signetics 3000KT8080SK bit slice 8080 emulator

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Any interest in one of these boards?
Complete except for U3, an empty 16 pin DIP socket.
With some kind of transition board attached from Zapsystems, a local
builder IIRC.

https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_signeticsdMicroprocessor_9921635/page/n43/mode/2up?view=theater

[cctalk] Re: Burroughs TD700

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Sorry about that; now that you mention it, I do recall you scanning
and posting the docs back then. Thanks!

I wonder if the fellow building one from scratch is aware of their existence...

So, it looks like some or all of it is going to you; I don't think
there's enough to put one back together anyway.

m


On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 4:50 PM Nigel Williams
 wrote:
>
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:36 AM Mike Stein via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > ... including the
> > technical manual with schematics of the cards, so at least
> > documentation is out there somewhere (Tasmania, IIRC ;-)
>
> Shared from here since 2019...for those that missed it :-)
>
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1iihVNRfkd_zX_PwV30gKQTNLzLcnMEvm?usp=sharing

[cctalk] Re: Burroughs TD700

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I doubt it, Chris, but you never know; apparently there is someone out
there more or less building one from scratch.

I'm not even sure if I still have the display panel (or if it works).
I sold and gave away some parts three or four years ago, including the
technical manual with schematics of the cards, so at least
documentation is out there somewhere (Tasmania, IIRC ;-)

I'll let you know if I find the display; AFAIR it's an 8 line version.

For anyone else interested, I do have two power supply/logic cabinets
and the following cards:

16940801 P
16948051 C
16998650 D
16998692 H
16998734 J

Without the tech docs I have no idea what they are, but for anyone
needing one the info is out there.

Perhaps the person with the manuals will read this and come forward; I
don't believe they've been scanned.

m

On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 3:08 PM Chris Coley  wrote:
>
> Why are you scrapping them?
> Are they generally complete?
>
> If there is enough to refurb into a unit I am interested.  I'm in Sequim, WA.
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2023 at 12:01 PM Mike Stein via cctalk  
> wrote:
>>
>> Do any of you three or four TD700 owners out there need any parts? I'm
>> about to scrap a couple (in the Toronto area).
>>
>> m

[cctalk] Burroughs TD700

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Do any of you three or four TD700 owners out there need any parts? I'm
about to scrap a couple (in the Toronto area).

m

[cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I have to call it every time I misplace it in the house somewhere ;-) Never
in the fridge yet, so far...

Golden years, my derriere!

On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 6:37 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Mike wrote:
> ...
> Gawd, I still remember those numbers, some 60 years later; so why can't I
> remember my thirty-year old cell phone number...
>
> Because you rarely, if ever, call it.  ;-)
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I remember making those lines, but they were more for a crash across the
room on the way from the 082 sorter to the 077 collator.

Gawd, I still remember those numbers, some 60 years later; so why can't I
remember my thirty-year old cell phone number...


On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 3:15 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> > On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 5:18 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> The main problem with that lorry hurtling down the freeway is
> latency.
> >>
> >> I need to move 1 PB . how long will it take filling and packing
> >> enough IBM LTO-9 tapes to send 1 PB ?
> >>
> >> How long does it takes to fill 1 tape with 18 TB ?
>
> On Mon, 2 Oct 2023, KenUnix via cctalk wrote:
> > Back it up to floppy diskettes.
> > HaHa. Sorry I could not resist.
>
> Far too unstable and prone to damage and data corruption.
> Use dead-tree technology of cards or paper tape.
> If you use cards, put diagonal sharpie marks on the decks, to facilitate
> visual re-ordering after the crash on the freeway.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

What do you find lacking in the spreadsheet? Which one, BTW?

On Mon, Aug 14, 2023 at 7:32 PM Mike Katz via cctalk 
wrote:

> I'm looking for a good inventory program to help me keep track of all of
> my PDP-8 stuff.
>
> I would like to keep track of physical location, board etch revision,
> board modification revision, bus type, where used, etc.
>
> If you have any good ideas, please let me know.
>
> I'm using a simple spreadsheet for now and it's not what I'm looking for.
>
> Thank you.
>

[cctalk] Re: Connecting MFM emulator as both 1st and 2nd drive in Microvax 2000?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Yup; I think I've got a couple of each type somewhere; don't recall who the
other ones were, but two are definitely Canon.

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 3:22 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> >> Yes, absolutely.  One spindle motor, with a floppy hub on each end, and
> >> two heads on one voice coil positioner, one for each floppy.  I had one
> >> of those.  The performance improvement was VERY marginal.  I had to take
> >> out the solenoid that lifted the pad that loaded the media against the
> >> head, the timing of the head loading somehow was all wrong and allowed
> >> it to start writing before the pad had fully loaded.
>
> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > Theoretically it could be done with only 2 motors--one spindle motor and
> > one positioner.  Probably not the best for performance, but doable.
>
> ISTR that one of the "Dual" 5.25" floppy drives worked that way.
> It might even have been Canon; there were two models, one with separate
> positioners, and one sharing a single positioner.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

[cctalk] Re: Apple 1

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Ah, BBM memories...

My first paying programmer/operator job was on a B260 in the late 60s, the
first Burroughs minicomputer in Canada IIRC. Many years later, after trying
a few other careers including managing a large motorcycle dealership, I
wound up back with Burroughs doing contract programming for series L
machines, B1800s and B80 & 90s, cross-compiling on a B2700 at night when I
had it all to myself. I too had lots of disk cartridges, cassettes, mag
tapes and even punched cards and tapes, many pretty rare today, that I
threw out before I realized that there were actually folks interested in
that old 'junk'.

Still have the operator console from that B2700 though...

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 8:04 PM Alan Perry via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> My holy grail is a Burroughs B1965. I was one of the last people at
> Burroughs (Unisys at that point) fixing bugs in the system software on
> B1000 (the only one in the Lake Forest, CA office; all of the sys admins
> knew of the B1965 there as "my" machine.). My office was filled with
> B1000 removable disk packs (different versions of the OS and release
> management of the software packages I owned). I loved working with that
> machine.
>
> I have boot and maintenance cassettes and a disk pack that I picked up
> on eBay. I should have taken and preserved more stuff before I left.
>
> On 8/5/23 4:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
> > For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically
> > incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail.  Some
> day
> > I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same rate
> as
> > my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system though
> and
> > like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches. Still feels
> > science fantasy to me.
> >
> > Less systems being around makes all of these popular systems go up in
> price
> > with supply and demand. Not sure what would make the market go down
> unless
> > hundreds were found somewhere and flooded the market. But it's
> interesting
> > as less kids would have heard of any of these systems so maybe history
> > becomes less interesting and valuable at some point?
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 6:21 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 8/5/23 15:58, b...@techtimetraveller.com wrote:
> >>> Do you have an emotional attachment to it?  I just saw one sell on ebay
> >> yesterday for $6100.  An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your
> >> Altair.
> >> No real attachment; it was a useful tool for a time.  It took an entire
> >> weekend with coffee and little sleep to assemble it.  And those really
> >> awful cheap white wires...
> >>
> >> I'd have to pull it off the shelf, clean it up and get it working again.
> >>   That's not trivial and I have better uses for my time.
> >>
> >> --Chuck
> >>
> >>
> >>
>

[cctalk] Re: Apple 1

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

As a matter of fact a local friend, Josh Bensadon, restored their MCM/70
for the York U museum in Toronto

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 7:37 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 8/5/23 16:30, John Herron wrote:
> > For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically
> > incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail.  Some
> > day I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same
> > rate as my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system
> > though and like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches.
> > Still feels science fantasy to me.
>
> If I weren't old and if I were a collector, I'd be going after an MCM/70
> as my target.  8008 CPU, APL and pretty darned close to the first
> mobile-capable PC.
>
> Gotta love them Canadians!
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Apple 1

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Yup!

There's one in the local University's museum, and the curator even wrote a
book about its interesting history.

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 7:37 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 8/5/23 16:30, John Herron wrote:
> > For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically
> > incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail.  Some
> > day I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same
> > rate as my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system
> > though and like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches.
> > Still feels science fantasy to me.
>
> If I weren't old and if I were a collector, I'd be going after an MCM/70
> as my target.  8008 CPU, APL and pretty darned close to the first
> mobile-capable PC.
>
> Gotta love them Canadians!
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: VCF this weekend, any one up for a trade?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Too far away to make shipping practical, but I'm curious: what's the
experiment about?

Glad you're happy with the PC-5000 etc.; no interest in the monitor I take
it?

m

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 1:19 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk 
wrote:

> I can't make it to VCF this weekend - though I'm hoping to make it to the
> one in September.
>
> I actually am looking for something: any working IEC device for a C64 (1541
> drive, printer, plotter?).   More for an experiment than collection, but do
> prefer clean and presentable.
>
>
> Earlier this year, I reached someone with a working Poly-88.  But then in
> March they reported health issues and hospital stays, so I haven't heard
> since.  Would be interested if anyone else is aware of a still-working one.
>
> We're still working on recovery of an IBM 5100 "launch title" tape
> (analytic functions) - practicing with other tapes first.  Its 2-channel
> deal so far isn't quite that straightforward.  But if the Tektronics folks
> can do it with their QIC tapes, I'm somewhat hopeful we can too (although
> late 70s/early 80s Tektronic is apparently a more proper IEEE-488).
>
> Only thing I could offer right now is a fairly not-working 5110 (display
> don't work, PSU don't work, cards don't work - but the case is pristine).
>
> -Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 8:49 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > >> I did not get any of whatever mailings there were.
> > >>
> > >> I don't exhibit, but I do have an excessive amount of stuff to sort
> and
> > >> pack for sale and giveaway.
> > >> --
> > >> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 3 Aug 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
> > > We'll just have to organize a VCF Fred at some point.  That way, they
> > come
> > > to you.
> > >
> > > I mean, after all, that's why I started the VCF ;)
> >
> > Yes, but you handed it over to a swell bunch of people before I finished
> > parting with my stuff!
> >
> > --
> > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
> >
>

[cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Conrac mainly made CRT monitor assemblies, so the actual terminal was quite
possibly made by someone else.

It looks vaguely familiar; I'm surprised no one's recognized it.

m

On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 6:13 PM Brad H via cctalk 
wrote:

> Thanks Rod!
>
> I discovered an immediate problem I hadn't caught before.. two of the
> trimmer resistors had actually been broken right off two of their legs.. so
> that may account for strange/missing voltages.   They are a CONRAC part
> 928237.  The CRT is CONRAC too, but I still don't think this is a CONRAC
> terminal.  Anyway, I only found one source for the exact resistor, an
> aerospace company, and they want $80 per unit (I think they just want me to
> go away).
>
> So far in testing I haven't found any shorts.  My main worry is the PSU
> sending incorrect voltages to wrong place.  In addition to the broken
> resistors I also discovered some broken solder joints on the PSU PCB..
> those at least are repaired.  I'm trying to figure out the resistance the
> two resistors were set to so I can put a replacement in with same,
> hopefully that gets me close to what should be there.
>
> Brad
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Rod Smallwood via cctalk 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 8:48 AM
> To: Douglas Taylor via cctalk 
> Cc: Rod Smallwood 
> Subject: [cctalk] Re: 1974 No Name Terminal
>
> I worked on VDU's as an engineer in the UK before joining DEC to sell
> volume VT100's in 1975
>
> There's a mention of block on one of the cards so a block mode terminal.
>
> That means enter data and press a key to send the lot.
>
> The card cage could mean its emulating something.
>
> I'd test as many capacitors as possible. PSU first and replace as required.
>
> Run PSU and check voltages.
>
>   Check each board for power rail to ground shorts.
>
>   If ok give each board +5v on its own and see if the TTL is alive.
>
> If theres a clock gen start there (look for a crystal can)
>
>   Loads of fans might indicate an industrial environment
>
>At this age some TTL will have failed plus capacitors.
>
>   Rod Smallwood
>
>
> On 05/07/2023 16:28, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> > At first glance it reminded me of the Hazeltine 1000, I owned one in
> > the early 1980's.  Brutally simple terminals, I remember getting a ROM
> > from Jameco which allowed the terminal to display lowercase letters.
> > Pure luxury.
> > Doug
> >
> > On 7/4/2023 6:57 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote:
> >> Hi there - not sure how much overlap there is with vcfed's forum, but
> >> thought I would reach out here in case.  I have a terminal from 1974
> >> (based on date codes I've found on the motherboard).  I'm unable to
> >> determine manufacturer and that would be handy for diagnostic
> >> purposes. The terminal casing is made out of foam, and although there
> >> are some serial numbers stamped around, nothing really lines up.  The
> >> fans inside have zero dust or dirt, so I'm thinking this may not have
> >> seen much use, or may be a prototype or pilot for something.  It does
> >> have RS232 capability. Interestingly the screen is set down below the
> >> keyboard so that only half of it is visible.
> >>
> >>
> >> My main issue right now is the PSU - I am trying to determine if I'm
> >> safe to attempt powering up the board (the PSU so far seems to be ok,
> >> although some voltages on a couple of pins are mysterious).
> >>
> >>
> >> Anyway, on the extremely off chance anyone has ever seen one of these
> >> or something like it.. any tips would be appreciated. If I can find a
> >> manual I'll feel a lot safer about turning it on.
> >>
> >>
> >> Some pics here:
> >> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2uEFbi3OKBYr06y6yHnygDiLMtw2
> >> Qkj?usp
> >>
> >> =sharing
> >>
> >>
> >> Brad
> >>
> >> b...@techtimetraveller.com
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Source for NEW (unused) punch tape

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

You recall correctly; I ran a 101 with my Commodore PET for several years
and it did indeed use 1" 8 channel paper tape for vertical form control.
Side note: because of its size and noise it was in the basement, connected
to the PET in the upstairs office with a ~40 foot ribbon cable, contrary to
official length limits.

m

On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 1:46 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> IIRC the Centronics 101 printers did this.   It was for vertical spacing
> - you could put different loops in for different form lengths.
>
> I used to service them (mostly replacing heads) but never operated :-)
>
> cheers,
>
> Nigel
>
>
>
> On 2023-06-08 13:18, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 6:01 PM Paul Koning
> wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder if mylar tape for punching could be found, or made.  That was
> >> seen occasionally, for applications where a tape needed to be read many
> >> times.  An OS binary tape might want that.  I also remember seeing it
> on a
> >> machine in my father's lab, where it contained correction factors for a
> >> piece of precision machinery.
> >>
> > I've seen mylar tape used in a tiny loop where it controlled the
> movements
> > of a printer platen. I don't recall now whether it was used for
> horizontal
> > or vertical space - my recollection was the latter but it was a long time
> > ago.
> >
> > I don't know why it wasn't controlled by ASCII - a good bit of the
> > character set is dedicated to print head control. I think a different
> tape
> > had to be installed to match the program that was being run. The machine
> > was used for accountancy in about 1975, It was a bit like a large LA120
> > (but included the calculating part) and made by the french Logabax
> company.
> >
> > I worked in a manufacturing plant around 1985 where the (new)
> > pick-and-place machine was controlled by a paper tape. The tape was
> punched
> > on an ASR33 or similar. It seemed like an obsolete solution even though
> > only just installed. I bought a very nice surplus Facit tape punch from a
> > classified ad in Wireless World, built a serial to parallel interface and
> > allowed the machine programmer to create the source on a word processor
> > (which was our manufactured product) instead.
>
> --
> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
> Skype:  TILBURY2591
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I realize he's a bit eccentric, (even more so than many of us ;-) ), but I
think we're being a little hard on Tony, especially considering the many
contributions he's made to our hobby over the years with reverse-engineered
schematics and other obscure documentation.

If there weren't so much water between us I'd happily drop off a small
form-factor vintage PC that'd probably serve to extract/archive/whatever
numerous diskette formats with the various format conversion programs of
the day.

But it sounds like he'll explore one of the flux-transition gizmos; good
luck, Tony, and I hope you enjoy the experience!

m

On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 9:21 AM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On May 23, 2023, at 5:41 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 5:25 PM j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:
> >>
> >> On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> > I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2
> desktop
> > with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with:
> > "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to
> use.
>  Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from
>  the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
>  dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
>  Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases.
> >>> I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
> >>
> >>
> >> It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :)
> >
> > I do seriously wonder why nobody has been suggesting the
> > flux-transition type of device. If it can be got to work then it would
> > seem the ideal solution in that it can handle anything the disk drive
> > [1] can handle, including non FM/MFM formats.
>
> Sure it is likely to work.  But the point of the other suggestions, such
> as the one I wrote saying just to use a stock floppy drive, is that it
> offers another option that is easy.  It would also be a particularly
> convenient choice for anyone who already has such a system sitting in the
> closet, or can get his hands on one easily.
>
> While those flux widgets have at times tempted me, I haven't had a
> requirement for one yet, and unless at some point in the future I do,
> chances are I'll just stick with my existing off the shelf PC.
>
> paul
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I think you might be surprised by how many people still have to use
dial-up; at my cottage there is no cable service and high-speed fibre is
finally just being installed this year as the area becomes more populous.
Cell coverage is spotty, so a local hotspot is not always available or
reliable and also not very fast, and satellite/microwave access is not
affordable for everyone.

m

On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 4:48 PM Tony Jones via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 1:31 PM ben via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > True, until the last few years, I was on dial up speeds.
> >
>
> I think you may be an outlier ;-)
>

[cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Toll-free dial-up and the landline were very handy at my cottage, where the
only moderately high-speed option was expensive satellite or microwave
access.

I also worked from home at the cottage; fortunately it only involved
text-only remote access which also worked remarkably well at 56K; large
file transfers (off-line backups etc.) ran at night.

m

On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 4:41 PM Liam Proven via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Fri, 5 May 2023 at 21:26, Mike Stein via cctalk
>  wrote:
> >
> > No doubt many folks do have a need for speed but FWIW I get by fine with
> 6
> > Mbps D/L speed, streaming Youtube and local cable channels, browsing the
> > web, email & fora, etc.;
>
> ... wow.
>
> I had 500Mb/s for ~CzK 1000/mth in Prague. Ballpark ₤30.
>
> Here in the Isle of Man I'm on 100Mb/s and it's a moderate pain. But
> for my 1st 2 months here, I had only 16Mb/s at my mum's, and it was
> horrible.
>
>
> > I've also got a fall-back 56K toll-free dial-up
> > option which is still good for email and messaging when broadband is not
> > available.
>
> I kept a POTS modem around for years but after 2002 or so, it just
> didn't seem worth it. Even from 512kb/s, dropping an order of
> magnitude felt like not being online at all. By the time I was on a
> few megabits/sec I mothballed the dialup  device.
>
> I haven't had a landline since 2014 now.
>
>
>
> --
> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
> IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
> Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
>

[cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

The local cable channels here are served over ethernet and that works fine
for me at 6 Mbps, with only a very occasional hiccup.

m

On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 4:22 PM Tony Jones via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 1:06 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > Downloading the latest FreeBSD ISO in less than a week?   :-)
> >
>
> I took the question as more "why do you need a gigabit"?
>
> Comcast had kept slowly bumping us up over the term of several contracts,
> from 600mbit to 1200mbit and as I said, I use the speed mostly for work.
>
> We just cut the knot and got rid of cable TV but I'm pretty sure Netflix
> says one 4K stream requires less than 25mbit/sec.
>

[cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

No doubt many folks do have a need for speed but FWIW I get by fine with 6
Mbps D/L speed, streaming Youtube and local cable channels, browsing the
web, email & fora, etc.; I've also got a fall-back 56K toll-free dial-up
option which is still good for email and messaging when broadband is not
available.

Occasionally a bit more speed would be nice when downloading a particularly
large file, but that's a good excuse to get up & stretch my legs, make a
coffee or tea, or just sit outside getting some sun and fresh air.

The best part is that together with my cell phone it only costs me C$ 50/mo.

m

On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 3:03 PM Tony Jones via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 10:59 AM ben via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> > On 2023-05-04 2:31 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
> > the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really high
> > speed internet needed for?
> > Ben.
> >
>
> I do development that involves pulling large SCS trees, lots of fetching of
> rpms and isos.  It's nice to have the bandwidth.
>
> Also bandwidth != latency ("multiplayer games").
>

[cctalk] Re: ATA-3 50-pin IDE

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

How about this?

http://www.cablesonline.com/slnocd50pinj.html

m

On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 4:33 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Picture is on the VCF discussion here:
>
> 50-pin ATA to 44-pin ATA conversion options | Vintage Computer Federation
> Forums (vcfed.org)
> <
> https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/50-pin-ata-to-44-pin-ata-conversion-options.1242427/#post-1307018
> >
>
> https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/50-pin-ata-to-44-pin-ata-conversion-options.1242427/#post-1307018
>
>
> I could be wrong, maybe it is a SCSI interface.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 3:22 PM Wayne S via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> > Can you post a picture somewhere?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Mar 26, 2023, at 13:20, Paul Berger via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I have seen lots of laptop drives that would fit a 50 pin connector
> > that is about 2mm pitch  Looking at the back of the drive from the left
> > there are 44 pins in a group then 2 pins missing and the remaining 4 are
> > for selecting master and slave.
> > >
> > > Paul.
> > >
> > >> On 2023-03-26 4:33 p.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
> > >> Is anyone familiar with the 50-pin IDE interface, which I think is
> > called
> > >> ATA-3?  It is from around 1997-2002.   Normally IDE is 40-pin, or in
> > >> laptops might be a 44-pin.
> > >>
> > >> But in a COMPAQ Presario 1220, I've come across its hard drive that is
> > >> using this 50-pin interface (two rows of 25-pin that are quite
> > >> small/tightly spaced - moreso than even PCMCIA).
> > >>
> > >> I believe it is different (electrically) than the 1.8" 50-pin
> > interface.  I
> > >> ordered a CF-to-50-pin adapter that is intended for those 1.8" drives,
> > and
> > >> it won't work on this ATA-2 port (system won't boot with it inserted).
> > >> However, all my CF cards are larger than 2GB - so I'm not sure if that
> > was
> > >> the issue (don't think so, I think even with 8GB or larger it would
> > still
> > >> at least try to boot).
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The 2GB drive in this Presario (with the "weird' 50-pin IDE) contains
> > >> Windows ME and Office 2000.  That's cute, but I'm not so interested in
> > that
> > >> - I was hoping to image that drive for archive, then install something
> > else
> > >> (OS2).  But I can't find any "ATA-3 to normal 40-pin IDE" adapter.
> > >>
> > >> I think the "6 extra pins" on this 50-pin (relative to normal 44-pin
> > laptop
> > >> drives of those days) -- 2 of those pins (5-6) aren't used (maybe a
> > kind of
> > >> key) and the 4 others (1-4) are vendor specific.  So I may just be out
> > of
> > >> luck here in upgrading or replacing this drive with a more modern
> > >> solution.  But wanted to run it by the crew here before giving up.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> -Steve / v*
> >
>

[cctalk] Re: Looking for EPROMs

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

68764s and 2532s are still available if you look hard enough; if you can't
find any, with a couple of jumpers  the unusual TMS2564 can replace both of
them

m.

On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 1:38 PM rescue via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> Looking for MCM68764 and I could probably use some TMS2532 as well.
>
> I'm also always on the lookout for blank bipolar proms (chips stargin
> with 82S, and compatables).
>
> Anyone have any of these they don't need.  New, used, needing erasing,
> doesn't matter.
>
> If you have any, let me know how many you have (of each if you have
> both type) and what you are looking to get for them.
>
> If you need more standard/bigger EPROMs, I can trade too have a
> number of 2764, 27256, have some 27128 I think too, and maybe some 27512
> ?
> I'd have to go digging.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Curt
>
>

[cctalk] Re: WTB Sharp PC-5000

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Pretty sure I have one somewhere, with manual and some bubble packs,
working last time it was turned on.

Located in Toronto; contact me off-list if interested.

m

On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 2:17 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> If anyone knows of a Sharp PC-5000 that might be available.
>
> I've been looking for one for a while.
>
> Might be more in the Japanese or European vintage market?
>
> Prefer working, I've been curious about the MS DOS 2.0 ROM that it has.
>
> -Steve
> voidstar
>

[cctalk] Re: the mouse vs. touch sensitive devices

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Touchscreen with a 'real' stylus.

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 1:10 PM Kenton A. Hoover via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I don't think that portrayal of Xerox's view on the mouse is correct. Much
> of Interlisp and all of Smalltalk was mouse-based and Interlisp was never
> designed for (only) use by youth.
>
> Trackpads are fine except for detail work. Touchscreens are bound by touch
> targets needing to be finger-sized. The trackpoint works well if you never
> want to take your hands off the keyboard at all. The mouse/trackball just
> sit in the middle of the graph of connivence/precision.
>
> ..
>
> --
> Kenton A. Hoover
> ken...@nemersonhoover.org
> shib...@mail.marchordie.org
> +1 415 830 5843
> On Jan 22, 2023, 05:14 -0800, Chris via cctalk ,
> wrote:
> > Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was
> intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled
> people with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux
> fanatics, it's an indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint
> where I favored trackballs. But it's a toss up as to which is more natural
> and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain applications.
> >
> > Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads
> superior, make that way superior to that horrific track point used on old
> Thinkpads. But again that'a me. Touch screens, my hatred for them grows
> almost daily. They have their place. And for portable devices they're
> largely the only game in town. But I often wish I at least had the option
> of a mouse or something close.
> >
> > Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects
> of the newer tech just await refinement?
>

[cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man)

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

At 77, don't I know it...

But most of us are fortunate enough to choose how we spend that limited
time, whatever other folks may think.

Speaking of, I've had fun but this discussion is time I'll never get back
;-)

Time for a nap...

;-)

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:13 PM Chris via cctalk 
wrote:

>  Mike, our time (and energy) on this earth is limited. For some more
> limited then others. Like the old Dr. Who (circa 1989) when asked if he
> foumd butterflies interesting, replied "My good man, I find everything
> interesting". As do I. As do a lot of people. Some people are geared
> towards diving headlong into some insane arcane technology. Others just
> want to play Alien Syndrome.
>
> Illegitimi non carborundum

[cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man)

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Guess I've been lucky; haven't had any issues (AFAIK ;-)  with any of the
hundreds of ICs I've bought on eBay . On the other hand I've heard folks
even have issues with stuff from Mouser etc.

Same here; there's satisfaction in keeping the entire vintage package
running, but when it comes to actually working with it and especially
moving stuff to and from the modern world the emulators are indispensable
and it's amazing just how active and ingenious the folks designing  them
are.

And I'm still blown away that I can store ~10,000 times the amount of data
on this IMI 'brick' in front of me (which cost ~$1200 in its day) on a much
faster thumbnail-sized SD card costing <$100.

m



On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 2:24 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 11:14 AM Mike Stein via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > I offered some 8" diskettes a while back and didn't have a single
> inquiry,
> > and there doesn't seem to be a real shortage of other sizes either if you
> > don't mind sorting through used ones; even paper and mylar tape seem to
> > still be available.
> >
>
> True, eBay always has blank media, lots of it  new-old stock still in the
> shrinkwrap.  I have a pile of such myself.
>
> When it comes to parts I often read complaints that a certain IC or part is
> > unobtainium when a quick look on ebay or even Amazon will find a dozen
> > listings; some people get satisfaction from finding parts or
> documentation
> > that no one else could and sharing with the community.
> >
>
> A lot of that apparently is fake Chinesium, so it's somewhat misleading.
>
>
> > As to the reliability of mechanical devices, again, to each his/her own;
> > what is a frustrating experience for someone trying to get something done
> > is an opportunity for someone else to repair it and get that
> satisfaction.
> > At least, unlike some mysterious custom IC you can see what the problem
> is
> > and repair it.
> >
>
> I prefer using the original hardware myself, but I do enjoy the convenience
> of modern high-capacity memory drives and emulators.
>
> Sellam
>

[cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man)

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Not necessarily criticism, but there's usually a bit of judgement in there
somewhere; "I can't understand why on earth anybody would spend good money
and time buying old obsolete computers and getting them running" kinda
suggests that the speaker thinks you've got a problem and should spend the
money on more practical stuff (and they may well be right ;-)

I've certainly got hard and floppy disk emulators for several of my
systems; I was just saying that there are sick people out there who are
happy when a floppy drive fails and they have the opportunity to learn and
share repairing it.

Jest no accountin' for some folks' tastes...



On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 2:28 PM Chris via cctalk 
wrote:

>  @ Mike Stein
>
>  Not everything is criticism. I only corrected a rather obtuse notion
> about people replacing mechanical drives with solid state ones. Everyone
> would love to use their original equipment if it was practical. I for 1
> have NO luck with floppy disks. Is it my part of the country? Could be.

[cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man)

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I think the issue of finding media tends to be a little overstated.

I offered some 8" diskettes a while back and didn't have a single inquiry,
and there doesn't seem to be a real shortage of other sizes either if you
don't mind sorting through used ones; even paper and mylar tape seem to
still be available.

When it comes to parts I often read complaints that a certain IC or part is
unobtainium when a quick look on ebay or even Amazon will find a dozen
listings; some people get satisfaction from finding parts or documentation
that no one else could and sharing with the community.

As to the reliability of mechanical devices, again, to each his/her own;
what is a frustrating experience for someone trying to get something done
is an opportunity for someone else to repair it and get that satisfaction.
At least, unlike some mysterious custom IC you can see what the problem is
and repair it.

m

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 1:31 PM Chris via cctalk 
wrote:

>  I've never ever heard anyone state they like Goteks better then floppy
> drives. The media is difficult to find in a usable state. That puts a big
> crimp on any joy you may obtain from using original equipment. Hence people
> opt for the next best thing. Which offers a number of conveniences I'll
> add. On Monday, January 23, 2023, 01:26:40 PM EST, Christian Corti via
> cctalk  wrote:
>
>  On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Chris Zach wrote:
> > Is it a valid repair? Yes. Is it not "100% original" nope, and I don't
> care
> > too much. However one of the supplies was a total wreck from someone else
>
> Replacing a failed and possibly unrepairable component is something
> different than changing working parts with newer ones "just because I like
> the modern ones more". Then, I would not be in classic computing but just
> in "running old equipment".
>
> Christian
>

[cctalk] Re: Computer of Thesus (was: Re: Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man)

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I think one thing that this discussion demonstrates is the point of the
original post, namely that  there are many different reasons for
participating in this hobby and to each their own..

Let's face it, most of us have trouble justifying the time and money we
spend for whatever reason on what is essentially useless obsolete junk to
anyone outside our community.

At one end are the purists like the antique car crowd, where every last
screw has to be original, while at the other end are folks like Jim who are
more pragmatic and mainly just interested in getting something done (and
who incidentally designs and sells a lot of the adapters etc. that let us
replace parts like a hard to find and program replacement for a 2332 ROM
with a 2732 for example).

Thanks for your many contributions BTW, Jim, especially in the Commodore
world but much also applicable elsewhere.

/Soapbox on/
What I find a little disappointing is the judgement implied in the "I can't
understand why in the world anybody would do that" posts; we're all part of
the same community, mostly helping each other regardless of our different
perspectives, so instead of judging or arguing let's just respect each
other's views of the vintage computer world. Who knows, we may actually
learn to 'understand why' ;-)
/Soapbox off/

m

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 1:31 PM Chris via cctalk 
wrote:

>  I've never ever heard anyone state they like Goteks better then floppy
> drives. The media is difficult to find in a usable state. That puts a big
> crimp on any joy you may obtain from using original equipment. Hence people
> opt for the next best thing. Which offers a number of conveniences I'll
> add. On Monday, January 23, 2023, 01:26:40 PM EST, Christian Corti via
> cctalk  wrote:
>
>  On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Chris Zach wrote:
> > Is it a valid repair? Yes. Is it not "100% original" nope, and I don't
> care
> > too much. However one of the supplies was a total wreck from someone else
>
> Replacing a failed and possibly unrepairable component is something
> different than changing working parts with newer ones "just because I like
> the modern ones more". Then, I would not be in classic computing but just
> in "running old equipment".
>
> Christian
>

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

As you say, to each his/her own.

But although mechanical devices are indeed more prone to issues, the same
argument could be applied to the rest of the system; when your unobtainium
PAL or LSI chip fails you'll probably replace it with a modern replacement.

Just a question of where you choose to draw the line.

Personally, I just spent some time this weekend reviving some obscure IMI
hard drives that hadn't been run for at least 25 years and it was a real
delight to not only get them going again but to discover that one had a
functional OS installation on it that I thought I'd lost long ago.

I suppose there's some of that the very first time you get your Gesswein
emulator working, but it ain't the same thing.

Another issue is that I have several hundred floppy disks, some with fairly
rare stuff on them; maybe I'll get around to archiving them some day but in
the meantime they're fairly safe on disk (unlike the box full of extremely
rare Burroughs paper tapes that I threw out before I discovered that there
are folks who are actually interested in that kind of old crap  ;-)

m

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 9:38 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> On 1/23/2023 9:02 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> > Agreed; might as well just replace the whole system with an emulator
> while
> > you're at it.
> >
> > m
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:41 AM Christian Corti via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >>> Later today I plan to try FlashFloppy.  My goal is to eventually
> >>> replace all of my mechanical floppies with solid state ones.
> >> Why would one want to do that?
> >> My goal would be the opposite. Upgrade all vintage computers with floppy
> >> drives ;-) My experience is that, if handled correctly, floppies are one
> >> of the most durable media, and they are definitely more fun on vintage
> >> equipment than any form of modern replacement. For exchanging data
> between
> >> the new and the old world, maybe it can be an option. But for classic
> >> computing? No way I would replace a floppy drive if it isn't broken.
> >>
> >> Christian
>
>
> To each his own.  My interest is not in museum pieces that stand on a shelf
>
> and look pretty.  I like to actually work with them.  Mechanical disk
> drives
>
> are so old today they are prone to constant failure.  None of my
> original TRS-80
>
> drives still function.  If I replace them with TEAC FD55's they are no
> longer
>
> original so what difference is there if I replace them with a GOTEK and
> USB Stick?
>
> And the disks themselves become unreliable with repeated use. The
> replacements
>
> also allow for trying things the mechanical disks are incapable of.
> Like really large
>
> floppies with255 tracks.
>
>
> bill
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Computer Museum uses GreaseWeazle to help exonerate Maryland Man

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Agreed; might as well just replace the whole system with an emulator while
you're at it.

m

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:41 AM Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> > Later today I plan to try FlashFloppy.  My goal is to eventually
> > replace all of my mechanical floppies with solid state ones.
>
> Why would one want to do that?
> My goal would be the opposite. Upgrade all vintage computers with floppy
> drives ;-) My experience is that, if handled correctly, floppies are one
> of the most durable media, and they are definitely more fun on vintage
> equipment than any form of modern replacement. For exchanging data between
> the new and the old world, maybe it can be an option. But for classic
> computing? No way I would replace a floppy drive if it isn't broken.
>
> Christian
>

[cctalk] Re: 2102s and other chips / was Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Nope, they're numbered 2479 9595, but ISTR some irregularities among BBM
part numbers, especially when it came to LSI and memory chips.

They do have GND and Vcc on pins 9 and 10 respectively though, as Brent
suggests; maybe my memory from 30 years ago isn't so bad after all (no idea
what I had for breakfast though).

I did misremember the no. of chips though: 9 x 16, so presumably with
parity.

m


On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 5:10 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> What is the Burroughs part number / printed on the chip?  The 1449 1112 RAM
> chips are Burroughs' part number for the intel 2102 RAM
> Bill
>
> On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 3:51 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On 2023-Jan-21, at 11:25 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > > Finally, some Burroughs memory boards containing what I think are
> 2102s,
> > > but I'd have to investigate.
> >
> > Soldered or socketed?
> >
> > I'm on the lookout for 16 (or more to have some spares) 2102s to populate
> > an EconoRAM S100 memory board to go in an Altair. Proviso being they have
> > to be 'fast enough' (<=450nS, not sure whether 650 would be OK or not).
> >
> > ...
> > > Speaking of gold-plated chips, I'm finally scrapping the last remnants
> > of a
> > > Redactron mag card word processor; the main board has some house
> numbered
> > > white ceramic chips with the usual gold pins and lids (24, 40, 16
> pins).
> >
> > (Could probably figure out many of them with some rev-eng'ing to get
> their
> > pinout.)
> >
> >
>

[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Speaking of gold-plated chips, I'm finally scrapping the last remnants of a
Redactron mag card word processor; the main board has some house numbered
white ceramic chips with the usual gold pins and lids (24, 40, 16 pins).

Any interest for decoration/jewelry/exploration/whatever?

Also some Burroughs boards with their odd square package.

Finally, some Burroughs memory boards containing what I think are 2102s,
but I'd have to investigate.

m

On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 1:43 PM John Herron via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Earlier chips would have gold and later ceramic or black to save money.
> With RAM being expensive it was common to take whatever you had and toss it
> in your next system or an expansion card so that may be what you're seeing
> from a previous owner.
>
> On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 12:14 PM Chris via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> >  Well the latgest question I have is whether early NEC chips with any
> lida
> > were commonly used to populate tne 5162. And if your lids aren't gold
> > plated, is the lid aluminum or some related alloy?
>

[cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

If you're just *reading* 8" images it should just be a simple matter of
remapping the pins.

Here's a good reference; just reverse your perspective:

http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/img42841/cnct.htm

FWIW, several dual-mode FDCs, notably Cromemco, effectively duplicate
almost all of the relevant 50-pin signals on their 34-pin interface, so no
mods or adapters required. In fact, many people use 3.5" and 5.25" HD
drives (and presumably Goteks) on the 34-pin cable and they appear as 8"
drives to the system.

m

On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 10:26 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 1/21/23 01:11, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> > FWIW, I just received a Gotek last week and it uses an AT32F415.
> >
>
> The first one I bought many years ago has an STM32F105.
> At the time there was no third party firmware and it turned
> out to be pretty useless on anything other than a PC.
>
> With the current hXc2001 firmware it looks to be usable for
> any of the disks I may want to replace.
>
> I just got two new ones and they have AT32F415 chips.
> My understanding is that the two are functionally identical.
>
> We shall see as my fun progresses.
>
> An interesting note.  I have a device from DBIT that lets you
> hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies.
> I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could
> hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk.
>
> bill
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

FWIW, I just received a Gotek last week and it uses an AT32F415.

m

On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 12:28 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> After doing a little web browsing, it seems that Gotek has adapted the
> Artery AT32F435 MCU on their newer units.
>
> This is a huge improvement over the STM32F107 used on these originally.
> 288MHz, lots of flash 384KB SRAM.  Looks to be a souped-up crossbreed of
> the STM32F4 and F7 MCUs.
>
> I'll have to check  pinouts to see how the Artery MCUs match the STM
> varieties, but I suspect they'll be pretty close, as Artery also makes
> clones of standard STM32 chips (e.g. AT32F407 vs. STM32F407).  I'll be
> surprised if I couldn't use my STLINK programmer on one.
>
> This isn't unusual for the Chinese; there are several clone makers of
> the STM32 series.  I've run into a few that are phony-branded with the
> ST logo.
>
> But that AT32F435 in the new Gotek points to being able to do more than
> simply emulate a floppy.  Definitely everything including the kitchen
> sink type of MCU.
>
>
> --Chuck
>

[cctalk] Re: what is on topic?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

No personal experience but maybe this'll help:
https://corei64.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=285

Sorry for encouraging inappropriate threads ;-)

m

On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 1:56 PM steve shumaker via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> OK..Now that you mention it, I do have a CBM PET question.  I'm
> searching for replacement key tops for the chicklet keyboard.  There are
> stems available (apparently 3d printed) on EPay but no caps. Any
> suggestions on where to look?I have the keyboard and it seems a
> little silly to spend $300 on EPay if I only need 3 keys
>
> Steve
>
> On 12/20/22 10:19 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
> > On 12/21/2022 12:03 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote:
> >> Apples and Coco's and C64's would be the common sublist
> >>
> > As much as I enjoy these machines, I ask that we do not create yet
> > another list for them.  There are many fine forums for all of these
> > machines.  The occasional PET or VIC question in here surely won't
> > ruffle too many feathers, and those of us who know quite a bit about
> > these machines can redirect the OP elsewhere if needed.
> >
> >
>
>

[cctalk] Re: what is on topic?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Agreed (FWIW ;-)

Admittedly there are many alternate sources out there for information (and
misinformation) about relatively 'modern' systems, but there's also a lot
of informed, reliable and, dare I say, mature folks here with much to
contribute; it'd be a shame not to take advantage of their experience,
regardless of the age of the issue in question.

m

On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 11:33 PM Tony Jones via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Traffic on the list is so low I'm not seeing the issue.I'm also not
> seeing complaints about threads being off topic.Seems like solution
> seeking a problem.
>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 8:28 PM Chris via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> >  On Tuesday, December 20, 2022, 11:11:27 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I was not disagreeing with you.
> >
> >
> > Ok. Wonderful. I guess we've sufficiently established that from
> henceforth
> > anything dang-old is totally on topic. Any detractors? :)
> >
> > Transcoding as in vcr to mpegs? I wasn't suggesting XP was utterly
> > entirely useless. Video editing in a modern sense requires loads of
> > processing h.p. to be efficient. And no transcodimg is necessary.
> Certainly
> > not an expert. But I should think older hardware would be very very slow.
>

[cctalk] Re: reset "pulse" stretcher need

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I don't suppose there's an extra NC contact on the motor switch/relay? If
so, a relay would do, otherwise two relays.

m

On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 12:40 AM Jim Brain via cctalk 
wrote:

> This might be a bit off topic, so forgive me if so.
>
> The issue is a 24VAC motor with one connection to 24VAC and the other
> gated via two switches.  The first switch is a momentary one and the
> second is in parallel and connected to the motor.  A long enough
> momentary depression on the first switch actuates the electric motor
> enough to close the second switch, which then stays closed for 1
> revolution.
>
> The problem is that a quick enough press and release of the first switch
> does not allow the motor to move far enough to close the second switch.
>
> Given the configuration, my general plan was a small one shot timer
> circuit that energized when the switch was initially depressed and then
> closed a relay in parallel with the first 2 switches, with a time period
> that was 1/10 to 1/2 the time of the motor revolution. a quick close and
> release of the first switch would start the timer, which would then
> close the parallel switch and then open it a short time later, and then
> the motor switch, which would still be closed, could signal the end of
> the cycle.
>
> But, I thought I'd ask around and see if a simpler option was available.
>
> Jim
>
> --
>
> Jim Brain
> br...@jbrain.com
> www.jbrain.com
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Inline Serial Device?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Nice one! LOL!

m

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 3:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 11/12/22 11:56, ben via cctalk wrote:
> > On 2022-11-12 12:33 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Watch out for Indians. :)
> > Ben.
>
> Nonsense--they have some very fine restaurants here.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Inline Serial Device?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Can the magic control codes pass through to the remote device or does the
"black box" have to eat them?

Makes quite a difference...

m

On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 5:14 PM W2HX via cctalk 
wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who responded. And thanks to Wayne for the black box
> suggestion. I have actually been thinking about that very product. What it
> does is switch a master port to one of several other ports. Not far from
> what I'm seeking. I was thinking of buying one of these and hacking it to
> trigger a relay instead of a change of port. But before I went down that
> path, I thought I'd ask if anyone knew something more fit for purpose.
> Seems not and either this black box unit with a hack or a mcu might be my
> options.
>
> Thanks all!
>
>
> 73 Eugene W2HX
> Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wayne S via cctalk 
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2022 5:08 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Cc: Wayne S 
> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Inline Serial Device?
>
> Something like this…
>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Box-Corporation-Modified-SWED98174-Cos-II-Code-Operated-Serial-Switcher-/165759564735?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 11, 2022, at 14:00, Fred Cisin via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> I keep a big jar around that's full of blue- and black pill MCU boards,
> as well as a few of the more capable STM32F4 and F7 boards.Nowadays,
> everything seems to look like a job for an MCU.
>
>
> The MCU has replaced the hammer!
> . . . "To a man with a HAMMER|(big jar of blue and black pill MCUs),
> everything looks like a NAIL|(job for an MCU)"
>
>
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Inline Serial Device?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

A surprisingly complex project ;-)

For another alternative, the ever prolific Geoff Graham and co. have
developed an amazingly versatile BASIC interpreter for the Pi Pico:

https://geoffg.net/picomite.html

m

On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 9:06 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> >>> I am looking for a device that sits transparently in an RS-232 serial
> line
> >>> and upon seeing a particular code go over the serial line ((or
> sequence of
> >>> codes) will actual a relay (or a transistor). Something with two DB25s
> or
> >>> DE9s and is configurable to what code will trigger the output? Some
> kind of
> >>> box?
> >>
> >> not that it's easy but a raspberry pi could be set up to watch the
> serial
> >> line.
> >
> > Or even cheaper, and Arduino uno
>
> I second the Arduino recommendation. I have a Power Mac G4 with a serial
> dongle
> that drives an Arduino Nano-based IR blaster. It sends serial commands to
> it
> and the blaster transmits a signal to the room air conditioner. Should be
> easy
> to adapt the GPIO pins to a relay. Arduino programming and interfacing is
> pretty straightforward.
>
>
> https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2022/10/ir-controlling-new-air-conditioner-in.html
>
> --
>  personal:
> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
> ckai...@floodgap.com
> -- The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. -- Tacitus
> -
>
>

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Amen!

On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:17 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Own your land.
>
> Museum or individual.
>
> --
> Will
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:13 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk
>  wrote:
> >
> > I remember that Sellam and I remember visiting your facility on a trip
> my wife and I did to the US. It was very impressive collection and that’s
> an understatement.
> >
> > It’s a shame all that was lost ☹ It served to reinforce my approach to
> this s tuff, grab first ask questions later otherwise it becomes landfill.
> >
> > Apologies if this is not appropriate for this list but your landlord was
> a flog.
> >
> >
> > Kevin Parker
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk 
> > Sent: Monday, 17 October 2022 19:55
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > Cc: Sellam Abraham 
> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012
> >
> > Long story very short:
> >
> > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was stored
> and wouldn't let me back in.  Had to go to court.  Regained access and was
> able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again for
> good.  Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to scatter
> it to the wind.
> >
> > Sellam
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > You had to ask..I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago
> > > in non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty
> > >  Original message From: Tom Hunter via cctalk <
> > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22  1:31 AM  (GMT-08:00) To:
> > > "General
> > > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  Cc:
> > > Tom Hunter  Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage
> > > Computer Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great
> > > VintageComputer Heist of 2012". What was that about? Who stole what
> and where andwhy?
> >
>

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Not saying that what the landlord did was ethically, morally or even
legally correct, just that you could have avoided the whole disaster; I'm
sure the community would have gladly chipped in to help, but I think your
attitude at the time was not very helpful..

You certainly had (and have) my sympathy, but at the same time I was pissed
because IMO as de facto 'curator' of a pretty special collection, much of
it no doubt donated, you had a certain responsibility to protect it.

As you say, let's not revive the whole sad tale; glad to hear you're back
on your feet.

mike

On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 7:56 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Mike,
>
> I'm trying not to extend this conversation, because I am not interested in
> a pity-party, but this kind of comment is insulting.  Of course I should
> have paid the rent.  And vy the way, as soon as I had it, I offered it, but
> they refused the tender.
>
> Regardless, when someone gets evicted, they and their stuff get thrown out
> of the building.  The landlord doesn't get to keep a million dollars of
> property over $4,000 of missed rent.  It is not lawful to liquidate any of
> the tenant's property to offset the debt, unless they go through a long and
> drawn out legal process.
>
> Sellam
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 2:11 PM Mike Stein via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Shoulda paid the rent.
> >
> > A sad tale indeed.
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 4:11 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > > The good news is that most of my best stuff was either already with me
> > or I
> > > was able to get out, including my two Lisa 1's, my (straight) PDP-8,
> and
> > > several other precious items.  I long since sold off most of this to
> pay
> > to
> > > live, since at the same time they destroyed my collection they
> destroyed
> > my
> > > business (not to mention my life's work).
> > >
> > > I've gone on to build a new collection out of the old, one that
> is--like
> > my
> > > original collection--unrivaled anywhere on the planet.  But this time
> > I've
> > > erected castle walls around it, surrounded by a moat filled with
> > > alligators.
> > >
> > > Sellam
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 11:58 AM Ryan de Laplante via cctalk <
> > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I didn’t know you were able to recover 20% of the collection before
> > being
> > > > locked out again.  I know losing any of it is terrible, but I’m
> > guessing
> > > > you prioritized the very best pieces of the collection when
> recovering
> > > the
> > > > 20%, such as your Lisa 1?
> > > >
> > > > I kept my collection in storage lockers for years.  I kept moving to
> > > > larger and larger lockers, then eventually two large lockers, because
> > my
> > > > collecting got out of control.  Prices kept going up every year and
> it
> > > was
> > > > a nightmare having to pay what I did just to store the collection.
> > > >  Fortunately I was able to move to a house and relocated the
> collection
> > > to
> > > > the basement.  Not everything could come home with me, so I sold the
> > > > remaining lower priority pieces to the first person who could clear
> the
> > > > locker over a weekend.  I didn’t get much for it, but at least it
> > didn’t
> > > go
> > > > to a recycler.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Oct 17, 2022, at 4:54 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
> > > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Long story very short:
> > > > >
> > > > > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was
> > > stored
> > > > > and wouldn't let me back in.  Had to go to court.  Regained access
> > and
> > > > was
> > > > > able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out
> > again
> > > > for
> > > > > good.  Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to
> > > scatter
> > > > > it to the wind.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sellam
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> You had to ask..I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years
> > ago
> > > in
> > > > >> non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty
> > > > >>  Original message From: Tom Hunter via cctalk <
> > > > >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22  1:31 AM  (GMT-08:00) To:
> > > > "General
> > > > >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> > Cc:
> > > > Tom
> > > > >> Hunter  Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage
> > Computer
> > > > >> Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer
> > > Heist
> > > > of
> > > > >> 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[cctalk] Re: Great Vintage Computer Heist of 2012

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Shoulda paid the rent.

A sad tale indeed.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 4:11 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The good news is that most of my best stuff was either already with me or I
> was able to get out, including my two Lisa 1's, my (straight) PDP-8, and
> several other precious items.  I long since sold off most of this to pay to
> live, since at the same time they destroyed my collection they destroyed my
> business (not to mention my life's work).
>
> I've gone on to build a new collection out of the old, one that is--like my
> original collection--unrivaled anywhere on the planet.  But this time I've
> erected castle walls around it, surrounded by a moat filled with
> alligators.
>
> Sellam
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 11:58 AM Ryan de Laplante via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > I didn’t know you were able to recover 20% of the collection before being
> > locked out again.  I know losing any of it is terrible, but I’m guessing
> > you prioritized the very best pieces of the collection when recovering
> the
> > 20%, such as your Lisa 1?
> >
> > I kept my collection in storage lockers for years.  I kept moving to
> > larger and larger lockers, then eventually two large lockers, because my
> > collecting got out of control.  Prices kept going up every year and it
> was
> > a nightmare having to pay what I did just to store the collection.
> >  Fortunately I was able to move to a house and relocated the collection
> to
> > the basement.  Not everything could come home with me, so I sold the
> > remaining lower priority pieces to the first person who could clear the
> > locker over a weekend.  I didn’t get much for it, but at least it didn’t
> go
> > to a recycler.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 17, 2022, at 4:54 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Long story very short:
> > >
> > > Landlords evicted me from their warehouse where my collection was
> stored
> > > and wouldn't let me back in.  Had to go to court.  Regained access and
> > was
> > > able to pull out 20% of the collection before they locked me out again
> > for
> > > good.  Then sold the rest to computer recyclers, who proceeded to
> scatter
> > > it to the wind.
> > >
> > > Sellam
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:43 AM Ali via cctalk 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> You had to ask..I was there 3000 years ago (or about 10 years ago
> in
> > >> non Tolkien meme terms) and it wasn't pretty
> > >>  Original message From: Tom Hunter via cctalk <
> > >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 10/17/22  1:31 AM  (GMT-08:00) To:
> > "General
> > >> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  Cc:
> > Tom
> > >> Hunter  Subject: [cctalk] Great Vintage Computer
> > >> Heist of 2012 Sellam Abraham referred to a "Great VintageComputer
> Heist
> > of
> > >> 2012". What was that about? Who stole what and where andwhy?
> >
> >
> >
>

[cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette storage cases)

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

How much?

On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 11:38 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> A little while ago I bought some new ones from https://www.floppydisk.com/
>
> I have no relationship to floppydisk.com
>
>
> Kevin Parker
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mike Begley via cctalk 
> Sent: Thursday, 13 October 2022 14:12
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Cc: Mike Begley 
> Subject: [cctalk] 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette
> storage cases)
>
> With all the talk about 8" floppy diskette storage cases, I was wondering
> if
> anyone had any 8" floppy disks themselves they would be willing to sell?
>
> This winter I am hoping to start restoring an IMSAI 8080 I recently
> acquired, and while it came with one external 5.25" drive, it would be
> desirable to connect a "proper" 8" disk system to it as well.  However, the
> complete lack of the disks themselves makes that project more or less
> impractical even once I get hardware set up.  So before I even start that
> project, I'd love to pick up a collection of 8" media.  Years back I had an
> impressive collection of CP/M software on 8" floppies, but unfortunately,
> they were accidentally left behind in a move.  :-/
>
> -mike
>
>

[cctalk] Re: 8" floppy diskettes themselves (was: 8" floppy diskette storage cases)

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I've certainly got some for sale; mostly DS/DD but a few SS/SD as well. Can
your drive(s) handle DS/DD disks?

m

On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 11:12 PM Mike Begley via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> With all the talk about 8" floppy diskette storage cases, I was wondering
> if anyone had any 8" floppy disks themselves they would be willing to sell?
>
> This winter I am hoping to start restoring an IMSAI 8080 I recently
> acquired, and while it came with one external 5.25" drive, it would be
> desirable to connect a "proper" 8" disk system to it as well.  However, the
> complete lack of the disks themselves makes that project more or less
> impractical even once I get hardware set up.  So before I even start that
> project, I'd love to pick up a collection of 8" media.  Years back I had an
> impressive collection of CP/M software on 8" floppies, but unfortunately,
> they were accidentally left behind in a move.  :-/
>
> -mike
>
>

[cctalk] Re: bubble memory stable?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Second that. I've got a PC-5000 as well (wanna buy it?) and have never had
any issues with the bubble paks.

I suppose it's the computer as well but I was surprised by how relatively
slow they are, considering that they're 'solid state'.

An interesting project, replacing them with SD cards or similar; way beyond
my skills though.

I assume the manual is out there somewhere?

m

On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 7:39 AM osi.superboard via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> the Sharp PC-5000 bubble memory is very reliable. It`s working flawless
> on two machines I have.
>
> Bubble memory was used as well in some significant older machines, like
> the Texas instruments Silent Terminals (around 77 I guess). And last
> time I turned on the terminal, it worked perfectly still showing text in
> memory, entered decades ago. So no worry.
>
> Thomas
>
> Am 02.10.2022 um 10:58 schrieb Steve Lewis via cctalk:
> > How "stable" is bubble memory, over decades?
> >
> > There is a Sharp PC-5000 that may be available, I believe from 1983-1985
> > era, which is said to have bubble memory.  But the owner can't find a
> power
> > cable, to verify if anything still works.
> >
> > I have older systems with ICs that are still working OK, but I was
> > wondering thoughts on any risk associated with bubble memory?
> (likelihood
> > of not working at all, or being damaged in long distance shipping)
> >
> > Actually another thought, can any "normal" ICs be used to
> > replace/substitute the bubble memory?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Steve
>

[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

LOL

I've got a B2700 front panel & console; I doubt that there are many 2700s
out there complete except for the front panel but if you do have one send
me a note ;-)

m

On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 11:31 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 11:17 PM jim stephens via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 9/22/22 10:05, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote:
> > > I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a
> *Data
> > > General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*.
> > > Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier
> > and
> > > I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged
> and
> > > of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay
> > > postage/freight.
> > > Any offers? Any offers?
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > PS Please don't shout at me!
> > I exhibited a front panel collection display at VCF West about 4 years
> > ago.  It exists not because of a collection, but as spare parts.  Also
> > brought one attached to one of my machines.
> >
> > there were two from a friend's collection of systems as well.  Sorry not
> > to help out, but suggest you buy the machine, not just a front panel.
> > That way when they are no longer something to have to display, they can
> > be passed on as a part of functional machines later.
> >
> > I did grab a couple of parts panels, and also did find a panel bezel on
> > Ebay, but they weren't cheap, and by what usually happens, the machines
> > showed up from somewhere else later after I acquired them.
> >
> > thanks
> > Jim
> >
>
> The worst is taking the front panel or keyboard from a complete system or
> terminal and discarding it because you solely collect these things, but at
> this point  there are a few system-less front panels and keyboards and it's
> a "thing" enough that it's not totally unreasonable to find them,
> especially if you have the money.  The damage has been done, nothing you
> can do about it now, at least something of the old hardware exists.  And, I
> am sure there are those who rescued the front panel from a system that was
> going to be destroyed.
>
>  I once was given a Burroughs 1700 front panel...anyone have a panel-less
> 1700 out there?
>
> Interesting philosophical discussion
>
> Bill
>

[cctalk] Re: 8" disk question!

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

That's how Cromemco shipped their distribution disks, with both holes and a
sticker to cover the unused hole with arrows on it to show which way was
which.

m


On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 4:32 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> >>> They didn't deal with it at all. It didn't work. No normal 8-inch
> >>> floppy disks have both index holes in the jacket. If you convert a
> >>> disk from SS to DS, or vice versa, by punching the other index hole in
> >>> the jacket, you have to cover the original, unless you're going to use
> >>> it in a drive that has only one index sensor (typically an SS drive).
>
> On 9/22/22 12:04, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> >> I've got at least three boxes of NOS Dysan disks with both of those
> >> index holes present, so they certainly were made commercially.
>
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > Yup.  I've got similar NOS ones also.
>
> Since those are not "normal", or at least uncommon, please send one such
> disk to Eric for his collection of odd stuff.
>
> It would have made sense for a drive with both sensors to have jumpers,
> that could, if needed often, be wired to a switch.
>
> When I repunched 8" disks, I put a write-enable tab over the old hole.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>

[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Flipping disks to use both sides in a single-side drive was really only
feasible in Commodore and similar drives that did not rely on an index hole
for locating the data on the disk; the notch was to allow writing to the
disk and had to be added on the opposite edge.

To use a flipped 5 1/4" disk in any other drive requires punching holes for
the index sensor in the opposite location, as well as the write (un)protect
notch; this can be tricky and it's easy to damage the actual 'cookie'
unless you remove it first.

All 8" drives use an index hole and also require punching corresponding
index holes but, as Jonathan points out, it's a little more complicated
because  the original location of the hole is different depending on
whether the disk is single- or double-sided .

On the other hand, you don't have to add a notch on an 8" drive unless you
want to write-protect it; the notch acts the reverse of the 5 1/4" notch,
i.e. notch=protect, no notch=write enabled.

Finally, there's the issue of the medium itself; if you're flipping
single-sided disks the early 8" disks are more likely to have flaws on the
unused side than the later 5 1/4" diskettes.

m

On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 4:10 AM Liam Proven via cctalk 
wrote:

> Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in
> their garage.
>
> Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course.
>
> Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides.
>
> Was that even possible on 8" disks?
>
> (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I
> never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home
> computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives
> at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and
> cheapest media.)
>
> --
> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
> UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420)
> 702-829-053
>

Re: Glass memory?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Hey, I've got one of those somewhere (the delay line, not the terminal ;-)
)!

I do still use the cabinet as a desk, as well as a few parts here and
there; to think that today something like an Arduino nano can replace that
desk-sized cabinet containing a substantial power supply and a card cage
with at least a dozen cards IIRC... I'm still amazed by how far we've come
in less than my lifetime...

m


On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 2:30 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 4/1/22 10:27, Paul Koning wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Apr 1, 2022, at 1:25 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Wasn't some of this glass delay line memory used in early raster-scanned
> >> computer video displays?
> >
> > I don't know about that one, but a delay line is a key component of a
> PAL (European) system color TV receiver.
>
> I know that the CRT display controller on the CDC 200 series terminal
> (INTERCOM, Export/Import 200 software) used a 10 msec magnetostrictive
> delay line.for image storage.Glass would seem to be a more
> mechanically robust storage medium.
>
> See:page 1-5
>
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/terminal/82128000_200_User_Terminal_Hardware_Reference_Jul68.pdf
>
> Later raster terminals used MOS shift register memory.
>
> The STAR-100 stations used a track on the station microdrum for video
> refresh.
>
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: Tandon TM 848-02

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

P 1-17 of the Service Manual

m

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 6:13 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> Does anyone have anything on the jumper settings for this drive?
> I would like to jumper it so it can read DEC RX01/RX02 floppies.
> I am looking at being able to read disks on a non-DEC systems
> but I would also like to be able to use it on my Andromeda card
> in a real PDP-11.
>
> bill
>

Re: Seeking paper tape punch

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

If anybody actually wants to build one I have the important part, motor
driven with solenoid operated cam driven punches; would only need a
suitable interface and maybe a cabinet.

Don't know if it would be worth while with today's shipping costs though,
unless you're local in the Toronto area.

m

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 7:33 PM ben via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 2022-02-21 3:11 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Feb 21, 2022, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> [apologies if this is a dup, but I didn't see it coming back in any of
> the cctalk digests]
> >>
> >> Greetings CC-Talk,
> >>I've been working on a low-budget project to help to introduce
> students to history of computing through material we have from MIT's 1950's
> Whirlwind project.  The activity would have more of a hands-on feel if we
> could use actual paper tape.
> >>A simple reader is easy enough, but a punch is a bit harder.  We
> don't need anything "authentic", or fast, or high performance, just
> something fairly reliable.
> >> If anyone can suggest where to find such a machine, could you let
> me know?  Fanuc PPR, GNT 4601/4604, and the DSI NC-2400 have been cited as
> possible candidates, but I don't see anything that looks like a good match
> on ebay.
> >>
> >>Thanks!
> >> /guy fedorkow
> >
> > Do you mean a punch as a computer peripheral, or a keyboard operated
> tape punch?  For the former, the ones you mentioned are obvious choices;
> BRPE is another.  Also the DEC paper tape reader/punch (PC01 or some such
> number).
> >
> > For keyboard operated, there's Teletype, Flexowriter, Creed, Siemens,
> depending on where you're located.  ASR33 is a common 8-bit punching
> terminal.  Older models that use 5-level tape ("Baudot") may also be
> around, and those could certainly serve for 1950s era machines that may
> well have actually used those.  I don't know what Whirlwind used, but I
> know some other 1950s machines that used 5 bit tape for their I/O.
> Electrologica X1 is an example.
> >
> >   paul
> >
>
> This requires a REAL MACHINE SHOP ...  none this 3d printer stuff. I
> would recommend a building a 35mm film punch and reader, as film stock
> is still easy to find compared to paper tape. Zuse used them for his
> computers in Germany on the 40's. Quality Mechanical stuff is lost high
> tech.
> Ben.
>
>
>

Re: Programming Bipolar PROMs

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

... and also has many rare ones in stock; reasonable prices, good guy!

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:38 PM ben via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 2021-09-27 9:23 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote:
> > While restoring and repairing a Data General Nova 2/10 I found a bad
> > bipolar PROM on the CPU board. The PROM has open-collector outputs and is
> > organized as 32 words by 8 bits. It appears that one of the
> open-collector
> > driver transistors is faulty (but it could also be that a fuse has
> > "healed").
> >
> > The part is an Intersil IM5600CP, but these were also made by others, for
> > example Signetics and Philips made the 82S23 and TI and NTE made the
> faster
> > SN74S188N. Some vendors still sell these parts and there are even a few
> on
> > Ebay.
> >
> > How do I program these PROMs? I found one somewhat obscure description of
> > the algorithm in the NTE datasheet, but I suspect that each manufacturer
> > had (somewhat) different algorithms.
> >
> > Is there an affordable commercial programmer out there which can program
> > these PROMs?
> >
> > Is there a simple design out there which I could breadboard for a one-off
> > programming job (maybe using an Arduino to control the programming
> > sequence)?
> >
> > Thanks and best regards
> > Tom Hunter
> >
> http://www.eprompro.com/Index.html
> Does PROMS.
> Ben.
>
>

Re: ISO Laserjet I/II/III firmware

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I've got a NEC board here with 8 x 27C010 1megabit EPROMs which AFAIK is
the postscript firmware for a NEC laser printer; any interest?

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 1:34 PM Al Kossow via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 8/12/21 9:09 AM, Zane Healy wrote:
> > I’m really curious as to why they’re working on the emulation.
>
> For the intellectual challenge, and to play with the Postscript
> interpreter.
>
>
>

Re: ISO Laserjet I/II/III firmware

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I believe I still have an LJ III and might still have parts from a scrapped
LJ II; I'll have a look.

m

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 1:57 AM Al Kossow via cctalk 
wrote:

> There has been some work going on emulating early Laserwriters in MAME and
> I was wondering
> if anyone still has boards or firmware dumps from Laserjets.
>
> It seems most have been scrapped.
>
> "nobody collects printers"
>
>

Re: Reading MT/ST Tapes

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

And here I've always thought of you as a pessimist who would have called it
'Half Empty ST'...

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:17 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> Yep.
>
> And, it was not appreciated when I suggested an interim release between
> the MT/ST emulator and "Full-ST" to be called "Half Full ST"
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, grif...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > Scope Creep.. no telling how many projects died in stalled development.
> >
> > On Jul 30, 2021 16:36, Fred Cisin via cctalk 
> > wrote:
> >
> >   On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> >   > Not really--it's very old technology, (1964), of limited
> >   capacity (about
> >   > 20 KB per tape), was a hideously expensive way to buy a
> >   typewriter
> >   > (about USD$7000 in 1964, or about USD$61,000 today), used
> >   almost
> >   > exclusively in large corporate offices to create form
> >   letters and
> >   > documents.  In other words, it was not intended as an
> >   archival medium.
> >   > The effort required in preparing a document was
> >   considerable (one used
> >   > the mini-keypad for various functions).  For a memo, it was
> >   easiest to
> >   > use the typewriter as a typewriter.
> >   > There are more interesting things to look at.
> >
> >   Well, form letters are "important".
> >   But, once microcomputer word processing matured, they could
> >   be done easily
> >   and much better.
> >
> >   An acquaintance was working on creating an emulation of the
> >   MT/ST, as a
> >   way for those who were familiar with the MT/ST and/or
> >   actually liked it,
> >   to be able to continue unchanged on a microcomputer.
> >
> >   But, then he started adding features.  Besides delaying the
> >   completion
> >   until it was no longer relevant, it was suggested that he
> >   change the name
> >   from "MT/ST" (pronounced "empty ST") to "FULL ST".
>

Re: Skew vs. interleave

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Same here.

I've spent many happy hours in 'the good old days' adjusting 'interleave'
of ST512/406 MFM hard disks to find the optimum setting for a particular
system/controller but had never even heard the term 'skew' until 5 or 6
years ago while playing with odd format diskettes, and then it was in the
track offset sense.

So I was surprised that some folks in the S100/CPM world use 'skew' in the
interleave sense, apparently because the CP/M documentation used it that
way. I'm always surprised how a field so dependent on rigid logical
concepts and definitions has so many inconsistencies.

Thanks everyone!

m

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 8:47 PM Paul Koning  wrote:

>
>
> > On Jul 30, 2021, at 5:35 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > There's a small discussion on S100computers about the terms 'skew' and
> > 'interleave'.
> >
> > In CP/M documentation 'skew' refers to what's usually called interleave
> > these days, i.e. offsetting sectors on a track to compensate for the fact
> > that by the time the computer has processed a given sector the next one
> has
> > already passed by, so that the computer has to wait an entire revolution
> > for it to pass by the head again; in other documentation as in Chuck's
> > 22disk for example this is also called 'interleave'.
> >
> > However, in later documentation the meaning of 'skew' seems to have
> changed
> > to refer to the offset of sectors between adjacent tracks to compensate
> for
> > the time required to step the head.
>
> I've only ever seen the term "skew" with that second meaning.  The first
> thing you mentioned in my experience is always called "interleave".  For
> example, the DEC RX50 has 2:1 interleave and 3 sector skew.
>
> Interleave is normally written as the physical sector number difference of
> two logically adjacent sectors (so 2:1 means there is one other sector
> between logical sector 0 and logical sector 1).  In one place (David
> Gesswein's MFM emulator) I've seen it used the other way around, n:1
> meaning that logical sector n is physically immediately after logical
> sector 0.
>
> paul
>
>
>

Skew vs. interleave

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

There's a small discussion on S100computers about the terms 'skew' and
'interleave'.

In CP/M documentation 'skew' refers to what's usually called interleave
these days, i.e. offsetting sectors on a track to compensate for the fact
that by the time the computer has processed a given sector the next one has
already passed by, so that the computer has to wait an entire revolution
for it to pass by the head again; in other documentation as in Chuck's
22disk for example this is also called 'interleave'.

However, in later documentation the meaning of 'skew' seems to have changed
to refer to the offset of sectors between adjacent tracks to compensate for
the time required to step the head.

Can anyone (Fred, Chuck?) shed some light on this apparent double meaning
of 'skew'? And if skew was used to describe sector interleave then what was
the offsetting of sectors between tracks called?

Inquiring minds need to know ;-)

m

Re: DEC Computer Lab for sale

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Sorry, these pins are smaller: .056" - .068'.

m

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 6:02 PM Vincent Slyngstad <
vincent.slyngs...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/30/2021 1:02 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
> > What's the length and the diameters at each end of the pin? I've got
> > some cables for Burroughs patch panels that might be useful.
>
> The pin diameter at the rounded tip is .093", a standard pin diameter.
> It flares to 0.102" or so, over about 0.34" of length.  The overall pin
> length (including the insulation crimp/strain relief) is about 0.65".
>
> Also measured some patch cords (pin tip to pin tip):
> Brown is 2.75".
> Red is 4.75".
> Orange is 6.75".
> Yellow is 8.75".
> Green is 16.5".
> Subtract about an inch and a quarter for the length of the visible wire.
>
> There was also blue, though I don't have one to measure.  My notes
> remind me that the blue looks about an inch or so longer than green,
> based on the cover photo of the manual. At that length it will
> comfortably reach across the device, whereas the green is just a little
> short for that.
>
> Found in my old notes:
> The DEC 12-03498 was a #41675 taper pin.
> Similar AMP taper pins:
> 42107 "88" series will fit.
> 42279 is similar, though obsolete.
>
> My old notes also suggest higher quantities for the patch cords; 100 of
> them all together:
> B 20
> R 30
> O 25
> Y 20
> G 10
> B  2
>
> Vince
>
> > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 3:40 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk
> > mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> >
> > On 5/30/2021 10:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> >  > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 11:42 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk
> >  > mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> >  >> https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php
> > 
> >  >> The photos get a little bigger if you click them.  Those bits of
> > stamped
> >  >> brass or whatever they are made of were probably pennies each.
> >  >
> >  > I've thought about what it might take to manufacture a pair of
> steel
> >  > rollers that could stamp those out but I haven't gotten very far
> with
> >  > it.  Same idea for the backplane bus strip DEC used to sell on the
> >  > roll.
> >  >
> >  > Depending on level of detail, either a small CNC or possibly a
> wire
> >  > EDM could make the dies.
> >
> > I thought about machining a ram to deform an existing modern pin (or
> > even just tubing) to create the taper.
> >
> > I also tried to cast some out of solder, but they had bubbles and
> > were a
> > little too soft (tin-lead solder).  Also, with a solder connection
> you
> > really need a good strain relief.  At some point it's too much work
> for
> > what you're accomplishing (and still not very authentic).
> >
> >  Vince
> >
>
>

Re: DEC Computer Lab for sale

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

What's the length and the diameters at each end of the pin? I've got some
cables for Burroughs patch panels that might be useful.

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 3:40 PM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/30/2021 10:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> > On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 11:42 AM Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk
> >  wrote:
> >> https://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php
> >> The photos get a little bigger if you click them.  Those bits of stamped
> >> brass or whatever they are made of were probably pennies each.
> >
> > I've thought about what it might take to manufacture a pair of steel
> > rollers that could stamp those out but I haven't gotten very far with
> > it.  Same idea for the backplane bus strip DEC used to sell on the
> > roll.
> >
> > Depending on level of detail, either a small CNC or possibly a wire
> > EDM could make the dies.
>
> I thought about machining a ram to deform an existing modern pin (or
> even just tubing) to create the taper.
>
> I also tried to cast some out of solder, but they had bubbles and were a
> little too soft (tin-lead solder).  Also, with a solder connection you
> really need a good strain relief.  At some point it's too much work for
> what you're accomplishing (and still not very authentic).
>
> Vince
>

Re: DEC Computer Lab for sale

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Any way to get a Discord invite?

On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 10:58 AM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Over on the Discord, I have posted a DEC Computer Lab H-500 for sale.
> Needs cosmetic help, but will be priced accordingly.
>
> Offers? Off list...
>
> --
> Will
>

Re: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Yup, cute little printer; want one?

On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 9:55 PM Stan Sieler via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Bingo, David nailed it!
>
> (The HP DeskJet Portable)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Stan
>
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 11:31 PM  wrote:
>
> > How about this...
> >
> > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=311
> >
> > David Collins
> > www.hpmuseum.net
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Stan Sieler
> via
> > cctalk
> > Sent: Friday, 12 March 2021 6:22 PM
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: name/model of HP portable printer? (not HP 2225x) circa 1993
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Does anyone remember the product name or number of the tiny HP portable
> > printer (*not* an HP 2225 of any kind!) that probably came out about the
> > same time as the HP Omnibook 300 (1993)?
> > (My google-fu failed me.)
> >
> > IIRC, it was able to print on regular paper 8.5" wide, probably using a
> > thinkjet mechanism.
> > Battery powered, probably black, probably HP-IL interface.
> >
> > I remember coveting one when I got my first Omnibook, but by that time
> > they were off the market and the only one I ever saw wasn't for sale (I
> did
> > borrow it for a few days, it worked well).
> > The use of standard (in the U.S.) paper, plus the tiny size, had be
> > interested in it.
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > Stan
> >
> >
>

Re: Votrax Type N Talk or PSS, Intextalker, Microvox

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

We had our Votrax T&T on one of the spare ports of a Cromemco/Cromix system
being used as a mail/BBS system; sort of a talking Caller ID announcing
when various users logged in.

Fun times...

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 8:38 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk 
wrote:

> Oh.. That brings back memories. We had a Votrax with a serial interface in
> the computer room.
> I configured it as a printer so I could yell into the room..
>
> echo Hey Alan. Look at the console and change the tape to the one requested
> | lpr -Pvotrax
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 8:24 PM Robert Stek via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > If anyone knows of an available unit (at considerably less than the $500
> > one on eBay), please let me know.  I actually have one SC-01-A and would
> > even take a unit missing the Votrax chip - I understand some units were
> > scavenged for the chip for several video arcade machines which used them.
> >
>

Re: Soldering DB connectors

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Same here. Also works for soldering header pins etc.; stick a matching
connector on the other side of the board and they stay flush and
perpendicular.

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 11:43 PM Ethan Dicks via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 1:47 PM Richard Milward via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > Something that's always worked for me: when soldering a male DB
> > connector (DB9, DB25, whatever -- or really any male/pin style
> > connector), plug it into a mating female connector first. That will hold
> > the pins securely in place and prevent them from sagging in the plastic
> > of the body if your soldering iron is too hot or you hold it on too long.
>
> Yep.  Been doing it that way for a lot of years.  Good tip!
>
> -ethan
>

Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Stan Sieler via cctalk" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes


> >
>> Mike Stein writes:
>>   > I remember there was another L9000 rescued in California years ago,
>> but maybe that's the one you have now.
>>
> 
> My consulting company was in Redwood City, CA.  Our nextdoor neighbor had a
> company leasing new cars.  They ran the company on a Burroughs L9000.
> 
> About August of 2000, they were at the point where they could no longer
> obtain ledger cards (roughly 8x11 with a magnetic stripe down the side for
> computer data), for the L9000, so they were going to move to a PC-based
> system.
> The owner knew I was a computer collector, so he offered to give me the
> L9000.
> 
> I was tempted...but it was a large machine, so I arranged for it to be
> given to the Computer History Museum (where I was, or became (timeline
> hazy) a senior docent).
> 
> I remember the owner saying that only the cleverness of their independent
> maintenance guy had kept the machine running ... to the point where he'd
> machined some replacement parts himself.
> 
> I talked to the elderly lady who ran the machine (i.e., did the data
> entry).  She compared it to the PC, and lamented the loss of the L9000.
> The L9000 was so much faster and easier to use!  She could probably enter
> data four or five times faster on the L9000.  It wasn't just a matter of
> familiarity ... much of the slowdown was due to the GUI nature of the PC
> program they switched to, and they no longer had the luxury of having
> relatively purpose-related hardware on the L9000.
> 
> Stan
-
If you scroll down to the L9000 there are pictures of the rescue I was thinking 
of, which may well be the system you're talking about and even the lady in 
question:

http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/gallery/bpgltc.htm

Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I guess the L series would be considered smaller, different but more or less 
equivalent to the B80.

I thought there was an L4000 and/or an L7000 in a museum out east somewhere; I 
think Bill Degnan would know.

m

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Thompson via cctech" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2020 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes


> There is a B800 at the RICM, but nothing larger.
> 
> 
>> On Aug 5, 2020, at 1:00 PM, cctech-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote:
>> 
>> Burroughs L-series paper tapes

Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Al Kossow via cctech" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2020 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes


> On 8/3/20 7:25 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> And what about your L9000 (or was it an 8000?) ? Did it also go to the LCM?
>> 
>> Not many left, alas...
> 
> we have an L-9000
> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1742.2001
> 
>
-
Looks like both of Bob's went to the LCM; I remember there was another L9000 
rescued in California years ago, but maybe that's the one you have now.

One or two older ones out east (RICM?) but not too many left, especially in 
actual working condition. A shame IMO, an area of computing that's not been 
preserved or even documented very well.

m

Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2020 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes


> On 8/1/2020 10:07 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> I've bought a small number of L-series tapes over the years that I 
>> finally read yesterday,
>> mostly pass 1 and 2 of the assembler.
>> Part numbers look like this. Oddly, they all seem to be wound 
>> backwards. The person-readable
>> label is at the end, which will make it annoying to scan.
>>
>> 1-2101-049-01
>> 1-2101-052-07
>> 1-1001-008-07
>> 1-1001-009-07
>>
>> Anyone have any others
> 
> I had a box of tapes for my L-5000, but unfortunately it and the tapes 
> ended up at the LCM so who knows where they are now...
> 
> Bob
-
Sorry to hear it ended up in LCM limbo; did you ever get it working?

And what about your L9000 (or was it an 8000?) ? Did it also go to the LCM?

Not many left, alas...

m

Re: Burroughs L-series paper tapes

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Al Kossow via cctech" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2020 1:07 PM
Subject: Burroughs L-series paper tapes


> I've bought a small number of L-series tapes over the years that I finally 
> read yesterday,
> mostly pass 1 and 2 of the assembler.
> Part numbers look like this. Oddly, they all seem to be wound backwards. The 
> person-readable
> label is at the end, which will make it annoying to scan.
> 
> 1-2101-049-01
> 1-2101-052-07
> 1-1001-008-07
> 1-1001-009-07
> 
> Anyone have any others?
> 
>
---

No descriptions? No idea which model L? Would be interesting to see the dumps, 
esp. the assembler.

I threw out several boxes full, way back before I realized that people were 
actually interested in this old junk, err, these old classic systems.

Guess someone just wound them up as they came out of the machine.

I've been following the recent thread about reading paper tapes and don't see 
why there are any issues?

Assuming you have some kind of reader the interface should be trivial; just 
read them at full speed and manipulate them as needed later on a PC.

Reversing the sequence oughta be really trivial, no? Could even do it with 
Excel ;-)

Or am I missing something?

m

Re: TM848 repair?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" 
To: "Jim Brain via cctalk" 
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: TM848 repair?


> On 7/13/20 12:18 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
>> On 7/13/2020 2:00 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
>>> Shouldn't be too difficult to troubleshoot; have you got the manual?
>>>
>>> Start by checking the 24V > 12V regulator...
>> 
>> As for a manual, I have this:
>> 
>> https://www.scss.tcd.ie/SCSSTreasuresCatalog/hardware/TCD-SCSS-T.20141115.002/Tandon-TM848-Specification-and-Schematic.pdf
>> 
>> 
>> I don't see the VR section in that, though.
> 
> If it's the same document that I have, PDF page 18, second-to-last page
> of schematics, near the bottom, near the legend "DC POWER CONNECTOR"
> 
> --Chuck



Which document is that? I find it on PDF page 85 of the OEM Operating and 
Service Manual TM-848-1 and TM-848-2 Disk Drives, Sheet 4 of 5.

m

Re: TM848 repair?

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Shouldn't be too difficult to troubleshoot; have you got the manual?

Start by checking the 24V > 12V regulator...

m

- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Brain via cctalk" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 2:18 PM
Subject: TM848 repair?


> Anyone on list repair or rehab Tandon TM848 drives? I have a 4 or so of 
> the slimline drives from some Tandy Model 12/16b units that don't seem 
> to spin at all, and I've hooked them up to the same PSU that a TM848E 
> successfully runs on, so I am guessing it's not a PSU issue. (Though, my 
> understanding of 8" drives is extremely minimal, so...)
> 
> If I could get just 2 of them working, that'd put a few 12/16b units 
> back in operation.
> 
> Jim
> 
> -- 
> Jim Brain
> br...@jbrain.com
> www.jbrain.com
>

Re: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks)

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Grant Taylor via cctalk" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2020 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks)


> On 7/3/20 3:24 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote:
>> Hi!
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> I have a box full of Compaq SCSI server disk caddies (with 9.1G 
>> disks in them). Feels silly to dump them into e-waste recycling, 
>> but there probably isn't much point in shipping them very far either 
>> (I am in Amsterdam).
> 
> /Which/ caddie are they?  Can we see a picture of them?  Both the front 
> visible from outside of the system and the connector(s).
> 
> I'm aware of two major families of caddies (near) that time.  The older 
> type with the drive on a sled with a card edge connector, and the newer 
> type with a frame that clams around the drive (these may have only been 
> SCA).  I believe the older card edge type used 68-pin UW, 50-pin 
> SCSI-II, and maybe SCA connectors.  I think the old card edge type also 
> came in 1/2 height and 1/3 height.  (It might have been the same sled 
> with different lids.
> 
> I suspect that there may be an interested party or three in the sleds. 
> Depending on the health of the drives, there may be interested parties 
> for them too.
> 
> If I needed one of those drives, I'd be willing to pay $1 / GB plus 
> shipping and handling if they were known to be good.  (If I needed them) 
> I would buy them sight unseen if you ran SpinRite level 2 on the drives 
> and said they passed.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
-

I've got a bunch of 18GB SCA drives like this on the other side of the pond 
(Toronto) and have been meaning for several years now to set up a box to test 
them; did actually test one with an 80<>68 pin adapter and it worked, but in 
the meantime seem to have misplaced the system I used...

Any interest to make it worth while?

m