Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[r.stricklin via cctalk]

Not commonly.

ok
bear.

-- 
Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 3, 2017, at 22:05, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
>  
>  Did the Apollo ever have a 1/2" tape unit on it?
> 
> --Chuck
> 

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/03/2017 08:31 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote:

> The OS for the ETA -10 was installed from QIC tape because you put it
> in through an Apollo DN3000 or similar service unit...  pretty sure
> that was THE way to get 'er done on that machine.


Hmmm, on the STAR (CYBER 200), it was loaded from the MCU drum.

But yeah, those stations were expensive, so I can understand using a
commodity workstation.   Did the Apollo ever have a 1/2" tape unit on it?

--Chuck

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Chris Elmquist via cctalk]

On April 3, 2017 1:18:31 PM CDT, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:37 AM, AJ Palmgren via cctech <
>cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi, Plamen & Al,
>> 
>> I'm just catching up on some of these past threads involving QIC 
>> cartridges.  What ever became of these Paragon tapes?  Were you able
>> to read them and archive the contents?
>
>
>I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers"
>just
>seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz".
>
>If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want
>to
>put software for it on a QIC cart?
>
>
>--Chuck

The OS for the ETA -10 was installed from QIC tape because you put it in 
through an Apollo DN3000 or similar service unit...  pretty sure that was THE 
way to get 'er done on that machine.

Chris

-- 
Chris Elmquist

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/03/2017 01:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:

> I'm almost afraid to see if the one Jim Battle sent me a long time
> ago still works.


This points up to a common misunderstanding among vendors, I think.  I
question the use of QIC for *archival* storage; it certainly was less
expensive than other comparably-sized media to deploy.

For *distribution*, where the cart is essentially a short-term affair
(until it can be copied to archival storage), it does make sense.

--Chuck

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Cameron Kaiser via cctalk]

> > I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just
> > seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz".
> >
> > If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want to
> > put software for it on a QIC cart?
> 
> Because it holds more than an Exatron Stringy Floppy?  (the obvious second 
> choice for high reliability storage)

Stringyfloppy shmingyfloppy. You need one of the unobtanium (with good reason)
Texas Instruments CC-40 wafertape disasters, the obvious third choice for
high reliability storage.

I'm almost afraid to see if the one Jim Battle sent me a long time ago still
works.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Famous, adj.: Conspicuously miserable.  -- Ambrose Bierce --

RE: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk 
[cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2017 2:23 PM
To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just
> seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz".
>
> If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want to
> put software for it on a QIC cart?

Because it holds more than an Exatron Stringy Floppy?  (the obvious second
choice for high reliability storage)

__

Don't bite that tongue plunged deeply into your cheek.

The Exatron was at best a joke.  Of course, better than most options of
the time but still anythng but reliable.

bill

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis wrote:

I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just
seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz".

If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want to
put software for it on a QIC cart?


Well, I have two larger boxes filled with QIC tapes for our former NEC 
SX-4 (the original SW distribution and all patches, updates, etc.).


Christian

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[geneb via cctalk]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:


On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:37 AM, AJ Palmgren via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:


Hi, Plamen & Al,

I'm just catching up on some of these past threads involving QIC
cartridges.  What ever became of these Paragon tapes?  Were you able
to read them and archive the contents?



I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just
seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz".


Dammit Chuck, not while I'm drinking coffee! :)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just
seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz".

If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want to
put software for it on a QIC cart?


Because it holds more than an Exatron Stringy Floppy?  (the obvious second 
choice for high reliability storage)

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:37 AM, AJ Palmgren via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi, Plamen & Al,
> 
> I'm just catching up on some of these past threads involving QIC 
> cartridges.  What ever became of these Paragon tapes?  Were you able
> to read them and archive the contents?


I'm probably showing my age (again), but "QIC" and "Supercomputers" just
seems to be about as related as "Chateau Margaux" and "Cheez Whiz".

If one is spending millions on a supercomputer, why would anyone want to
put software for it on a QIC cart?


--Chuck

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk]

Hello AJ, Al,

It took me a while, but I finally shipped the tapes to Raymond Stricklin.
I also have SunOS 2.0 tapes:
http://afterpeople.com/images/Image%20(30).tif
http://afterpeople.com/images/Image%20(31).tif

Al, check if these have been already images, if not I'll mail them to AJ.

BR,
Plamen



On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:37 AM, AJ Palmgren via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi, Plamen & Al,
>
> I'm just catching up on some of these past threads involving QIC
> cartridges.  What ever became of these Paragon tapes?  Were you able to
> read them and archive the contents?
>
> Thanks all,
> -AJ
> http://QICreader.com
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov <
> plamens...@afterpeople.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully:
> > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff-
> > lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_
> > 1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfd
> > w=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtR
> > p6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > never mind, that was just for diagnostics
> > >
> > > the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V
> > >
> > > it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with
> > > a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT
> > > box
> > >
> > > On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> > > > there are no useful pictures in the brochures
> > > >
> > > > it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16
> nodes
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
> AJ Palmgren
> http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck
> https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/
>

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[AJ Palmgren via cctalk]

Hi, Plamen & Al,

I'm just catching up on some of these past threads involving QIC
cartridges.  What ever became of these Paragon tapes?  Were you able to
read them and archive the contents?

Thanks all,
-AJ
http://QICreader.com



On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov 
wrote:

> I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully:
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff-
> lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_
> 1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfd
> w=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtR
> p6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
>
> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
>
> >
> > never mind, that was just for diagnostics
> >
> > the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V
> >
> > it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with
> > a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT
> > box
> >
> > On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> > > there are no useful pictures in the brochures
> > >
> > > it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes
> > >
> >
> >
>



-- 

Thanks,
AJ Palmgren
http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283
https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Jon Elson]

On 11/08/2016 11:55 AM, Paul Koning wrote:



The classic formula is 1 hp = 750 W.  But there's more to the picture.  Motors 
draw a steady state current based on the power demanded from them, and the hp 
rating shows the max that they are designed for.  But when starting they draw 
much more current.
Well, actually, motors draw a fairly constant current, and 
the phase angle between current and the applied voltage 
changes with load.  At idle, a motor draws almost pure 
lagging current (phase almost 90 degrees lagging the 
voltage) and at full load the current is nearly in phase 
with the voltage.  So, the POWER draw changes with load, but 
the line current changes much less!


Jon

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Jon Elson]

On 11/08/2016 11:33 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
Yea, that’s what I’m struggling with. The issue is that 
the control units power the devices that are connected to 
them (from what I can tell), so I have to power the entire 
string as one unit. The same goes for the 3340’s - the 
entire string is powered as a unit. The string of 3340’s 
need ~5kVA (I don’t know how that translates to HP). I’m 
still trying to figure out the requirements for the other 
strings. TTFN - Guy 
Just a warning, you MUST NOT power electronics from a VFD!  
(In theory, you can do it with a VERY effective filter, but 
I've never heard of anybody having success with it.)  They 
produce high frequency square waves at 400 V, and will do 
great damage to electronic loads.  They work great for 
motors, although the HF square waves can cause noise issues 
in sensitive electronics like tape and disk drives.


Jon

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Jon Elson]

On 11/08/2016 11:08 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
I’m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the 
IBM 4331 gear. I haven’t quite added up the power 
requirements yet but I’m guessing its going to be in the 
10-15kVA range. Since the power to all of the gear is 
really split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 
3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape drives and 2821 control 
uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to 
figure out if it’s best to have one big converter or 3 
smaller ones. It’s unlikely that I’d be running all of the 
peripherals at once. The 4331 itself runs off of single 
phase 220v. TTFN - Guy 
This is tricky stuff.  Motor VFDs produce 400 V square waves 
of varying duty cycle, so unless you built a very good 
filter, you couldn't feed that to a a lot of these devices.  
Possibly you could rewire all that stuff to run the 
electronics off single-phase power, and use VFDs for the 
3-phase motors.  I know the tape drive vacuum blowers and 
1403 printer had 3-phase motors in them.  Likely the 3340's 
do, too.  I'm guessing some of those control units may have 
run off single-phase, with the supplies balanced across 
different phases.  That was fairly common for stuff that 
didn't draw massive amounts of power.  Sounds like QUITE a 
project!


Jon

RE: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy
> Sotomayor Jr
> Sent: 08 November 2016 20:10
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information
> 
> 
> > On Nov 8, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> >> Koning
> >> Sent: 08 November 2016 17:22
> >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> >> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr <g...@shiresoft.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >>>>> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> >>>>>>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street,
> >>>>>>> anything but single-phase is pretty much out of the question.
> >>>>>> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his
> >>>>>> backyard shop, among other toys.  After he was laid off from his
> >>>>>> aerospace job doing machining it was how he made his living.  He
> >>>>>> was a very handy person to know :-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> mcl
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and
> >>>>> Sheldon
> >> lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in,
> >> 3-phase out, plus variable speed and dynamic braking.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jon
> >>>>>
> >>>> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just
> >>>> to save
> >> anybody the trouble of correcting my error.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I’m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331
> >>> gear.  I
> >> haven’t quite added up the power requirements yet but I’m guessing
> >> its going to be in the 10-15kVA range.  Since the power to all of the
> >> gear is really split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803
> >> control unit + 2 3420 tape drives and 2821 control uint + 1403
> >> printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to figure out if it’s best
> >> to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones.  It’s unlikely that I’d
> >> be running all of the peripherals at once.  The 4331 itself runs off of 
> >> single
> phase 220v.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Not sure how familiar with the 4331 you are, but from what I remember,
> > the microcode checks devices at poweron and may get itself in a tizz
> > If peripherals are not powered on…
> >
> I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.  ;-)  With the exception of the 
> 3340’s
> (which are directly attached to the 4331), I’m wondering how the microcode
> would know since the other peripherals are connected through control units
> which are on the bus-and-tag bus.  I would expect that an OS that was gen’d
> for all of the peripherals might get weird (or not) if it didn’t find the
> peripherals but I’ll happily deal with that when I get that far.


Having checked out the operators guide here:-

http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/computing/IBM/Mainframe/Hardware/System/GA33-1525-1_4331ProcessorOperatingProceduresProblemDeterminationGuide.pdf

it looks like the 4331 does not have a full IO config, but later models like 
the 4381 have a definition of all the attached devices in the microcode so they 
can check everything is working before you IPL the machine.

The physical planning manual for 43xx machines is in the above folder so you 
can check the power needs of each device..

> 
> I still have to physically get the system here.  I poked around it this past
> weekend (where is currently stored).  I did get all of the docs, tapes, 3340
> packs, etc and that filled up my (large) pickup truck…it was a lot of stuff.

Take care with the Microcode disks. The CPU and many controllers 


> 
> TTFN - Guy

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[ethan]

I’m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 
gear.  I haven’t quite added up the power requirements yet but I’m 
guessing its going to be in the 10-15kVA range.  Since the power to all 
of the gear is really split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 
3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 
printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to figure out if it’s best to 
have one big converter or 3 smaller ones.  It’s unlikely that I’d be 
running all of the peripherals at once.  The 4331 itself runs off of 
single phase 220v.


I keep thinking about moving my J90 series box from Norfolk storage up to 
Northern Virginia -- I've been tempted to ping some of the lower tier data 
centers to see if they have space that can't be filled due to changes in 
technology. Maybe I could beg to get a low rent on some space to store the 
system and have the three 220v connections to fire it up once in a while 
and try to get the OS installed again. I have no idea if it could happen. 
The facility I work in probably wouldn't do it but it's a bit more modern. 
Some of the older ones can't use all of the space because the density of 
hardware climbed so much that there isn't enough power/cooling to match.




--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Guy Sotomayor Jr]

> On Nov 8, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
>> Koning
>> Sent: 08 November 2016 17:22
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr <g...@shiresoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>>>> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>>>>>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street,
>>>>>>> anything but single-phase is pretty much out of the question.
>>>>>> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard
>>>>>> shop, among other toys.  After he was laid off from his aerospace
>>>>>> job doing machining it was how he made his living.  He was a very
>>>>>> handy person to know :-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> mcl
>>>>>> 
>>>>> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and Sheldon
>> lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out,
>> plus variable speed and dynamic braking.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jon
>>>>> 
>>>> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just to save
>> anybody the trouble of correcting my error.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> I’m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 gear.  I
>> haven’t quite added up the power requirements yet but I’m guessing its
>> going to be in the 10-15kVA range.  Since the power to all of the gear is 
>> really
>> split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 
>> tape
>> drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need
>> to figure out if it’s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones.  It’s
>> unlikely that I’d be running all of the peripherals at once.  The 4331 
>> itself runs
>> off of single phase 220v.
>> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how familiar with the 4331 you are, but from what I remember, the 
> microcode checks devices at poweron and may get itself in a tizz
> If peripherals are not powered on…
> 
I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.  ;-)  With the exception of the 3340’s 
(which are directly attached to the 4331), I’m wondering how the microcode 
would know since the other peripherals are connected through control units 
which are on the bus-and-tag bus.  I would expect that an OS that was gen’d for 
all of the peripherals might get weird (or not) if it didn’t find the 
peripherals but I’ll happily deal with that when I get that far.

I still have to physically get the system here.  I poked around it this past 
weekend (where is currently stored).  I did get all of the docs, tapes, 3340 
packs, etc and that filled up my (large) pickup truck…it was a lot of stuff.

TTFN - Guy

RE: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Koning
> Sent: 08 November 2016 17:22
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information
> 
> 
> > On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr <g...@shiresoft.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >>> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> >>>>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street,
> >>>>> anything but single-phase is pretty much out of the question.
> >>>> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle.
> >>>>
> >>>> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard
> >>>> shop, among other toys.  After he was laid off from his aerospace
> >>>> job doing machining it was how he made his living.  He was a very
> >>>> handy person to know :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> mcl
> >>>>
> >>> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and Sheldon
> lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out,
> plus variable speed and dynamic braking.
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just to save
> anybody the trouble of correcting my error.
> >>
> >
> > I’m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 gear.  I
> haven’t quite added up the power requirements yet but I’m guessing its
> going to be in the 10-15kVA range.  Since the power to all of the gear is 
> really
> split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 
> tape
> drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need
> to figure out if it’s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones.  It’s
> unlikely that I’d be running all of the peripherals at once.  The 4331 itself 
> runs
> off of single phase 220v.
> 


Not sure how familiar with the 4331 you are, but from what I remember, the 
microcode checks devices at poweron and may get itself in a tizz
If peripherals are not powered on...

Dave


> A VFD is a good option and may be quite economical if you get one of the low
> cost simple ones.  I have one (3 hp model for my lathe) that cost only a bit
> over $100, though the price has gone up since.  (Westinghouse TECO brand.)
> VFDs specified for single phase input tend to stop around 3 hp, as far as I
> have seen.  Rumor has it that higher power units will also work (possibly with
> some derating) even though they claim to be 3 phase input, when you feed
> them just one phase on 2 of the 3 wires.  I haven't tried that (but it matches
> how my VFD is connected).
> 
> The other option is a "rotary converter".  Basically that's a 3 phase motor
> connected to one phase power (with a start and run capacitor); it generates
> the missing phase roughtly in dynamotor fashion.  Those can be built (articles
> on the web) or bought from machinery supply companies such as Enco; they
> show models up to 20 hp, i.e., about 15 kW.  When I was looking into
> converters, I found VFDs to be the less expensive option.  The instant
> reverse and variable frequency features were also attractive for lathe use;
> for powering computers that would not apply.  Well, not unless you need 400
> Hz for your Cyber 6600 -- in which case you'd need to check the VFD will go
> that high, not all do.
> 
> Given that you have a number of smaller devices and that not all might need
> to run, several smaller converters sounds like a good option, especially if 
> that
> gets you into the "economy VFD" range.
> 
>   paul
> 

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:
> 
> ...
>> 
>> A VFD is a good option and may be quite economical if you get one of the low 
>> cost simple ones.  I have one (3 hp model for my lathe) that cost only a bit 
>> over $100, though the price has gone up since.  (Westinghouse TECO brand.)  
>> VFDs specified for single phase input tend to stop around 3 hp, as far as I 
>> have seen.  Rumor has it that higher power units will also work (possibly 
>> with some derating) even though they claim to be 3 phase input, when you 
>> feed them just one phase on 2 of the 3 wires.  I haven't tried that (but it 
>> matches how my VFD is connected).
>> ...
>> Given that you have a number of smaller devices and that not all might need 
>> to run, several smaller converters sounds like a good option, especially if 
>> that gets you into the "economy VFD" range.
> 
> Yea, that’s what I’m struggling with.  The issue is that the control units 
> power the devices that are connected to them (from what I can tell), so I 
> have to power the entire string as one unit.  The same goes for the 3340’s - 
> the entire string is powered as a unit.  The string of 3340’s need ~5kVA (I 
> don’t know how that translates to HP).  I’m still trying to figure out the 
> requirements for the other strings.

The classic formula is 1 hp = 750 W.  But there's more to the picture.  Motors 
draw a steady state current based on the power demanded from them, and the hp 
rating shows the max that they are designed for.  But when starting they draw 
much more current.

http://www.vfds.com/blog/vfd-buying-guide has a pile of good information, 
including more about the use of single phase input.  It's clearly an accepted 
practice, and yes, there's derating involved.

Given that your devices are partly motor loads, but certainly not entirely, the 
startup surge is likely to be modest by motor controller standards.  So the key 
question would be the steady state current vs. what the controller is rated for.

paul

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Lyle Bickley]

On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 09:33:37 -0800
Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:

> > On Nov 8, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Paul Koning 
> > wrote:
> > 
> >   
> >> On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr 
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >>   
> >>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson 
> >>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:  
>  On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:  
> > On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:  
> >> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street,
> >> anything but single-phase is pretty much out of the question.  
> > Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle.
> > 
> > A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his
> > backyard shop, among other toys.  After he was laid off from
> > his aerospace job doing machining it was how he made his
> > living.  He was a very handy person to know :-)
> > 
> > mcl
> >   
>  I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and
>  Sheldon lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD.
>  2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus variable speed and dynamic braking.
>  
>  Jon
>    
> >>> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires,
> >>> just to save anybody the trouble of correcting my error. 
> >> 
> >> I’m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM
> >> 4331 gear.  I haven’t quite added up the power requirements yet
> >> but I’m guessing its going to be in the 10-15kVA range.  Since the
> >> power to all of the gear is really split between 3 loads (string
> >> of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape drives and 2821
> >> control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to
> >> figure out if it’s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller
> >> ones.  It’s unlikely that I’d be running all of the peripherals at
> >> once.  The 4331 itself runs off of single phase 220v.  
> > 
> > A VFD is a good option and may be quite economical if you get one
> > of the low cost simple ones.  I have one (3 hp model for my lathe)
> > that cost only a bit over $100, though the price has gone up
> > since.  (Westinghouse TECO brand.)  VFDs specified for single phase
> > input tend to stop around 3 hp, as far as I have seen.  Rumor has
> > it that higher power units will also work (possibly with some
> > derating) even though they claim to be 3 phase input, when you feed
> > them just one phase on 2 of the 3 wires.  I haven't tried that (but
> > it matches how my VFD is connected).
> > 
> > The other option is a "rotary converter".  Basically that's a 3
> > phase motor connected to one phase power (with a start and run
> > capacitor); it generates the missing phase roughtly in dynamotor
> > fashion.  Those can be built (articles on the web) or bought from
> > machinery supply companies such as Enco; they show models up to 20
> > hp, i.e., about 15 kW.  When I was looking into converters, I found
> > VFDs to be the less expensive option.  The instant reverse and
> > variable frequency features were also attractive for lathe use; for
> > powering computers that would not apply.  Well, not unless you need
> > 400 Hz for your Cyber 6600 -- in which case you'd need to check the
> > VFD will go that high, not all do.
> > 
> > Given that you have a number of smaller devices and that not all
> > might need to run, several smaller converters sounds like a good
> > option, especially if that gets you into the "economy VFD" range.  
> 
> Yea, that’s what I’m struggling with.  The issue is that the control
> units power the devices that are connected to them (from what I can
> tell), so I have to power the entire string as one unit.  The same
> goes for the 3340’s - the entire string is powered as a unit.  The
> string of 3340’s need ~5kVA (I don’t know how that translates to
> HP).  I’m still trying to figure out the requirements for the other
> strings.

Here's a "conversion" website:
http://ncalculators.com/electrical/kva-conversion.htm

Cheers,
Lyle

-- 
73  AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Guy Sotomayor Jr]

> On Nov 8, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
 On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything
>> but single-phase is pretty much out of the question.
> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle.
> 
> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard shop,
> among other toys.  After he was laid off from his aerospace job doing
> machining it was how he made his living.  He was a very handy person
> to know :-)
> 
> mcl
> 
 I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and Sheldon lathe) 
 and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus 
 variable speed and dynamic braking.
 
 Jon
 
>>> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just to save 
>>> anybody the trouble of correcting my error.
>>> 
>> 
>> I’m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 gear.  I 
>> haven’t quite added up the power requirements yet but I’m guessing its going 
>> to be in the 10-15kVA range.  Since the power to all of the gear is really 
>> split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 
>> tape drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I 
>> need to figure out if it’s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones. 
>>  It’s unlikely that I’d be running all of the peripherals at once.  The 4331 
>> itself runs off of single phase 220v.
> 
> A VFD is a good option and may be quite economical if you get one of the low 
> cost simple ones.  I have one (3 hp model for my lathe) that cost only a bit 
> over $100, though the price has gone up since.  (Westinghouse TECO brand.)  
> VFDs specified for single phase input tend to stop around 3 hp, as far as I 
> have seen.  Rumor has it that higher power units will also work (possibly 
> with some derating) even though they claim to be 3 phase input, when you feed 
> them just one phase on 2 of the 3 wires.  I haven't tried that (but it 
> matches how my VFD is connected).
> 
> The other option is a "rotary converter".  Basically that's a 3 phase motor 
> connected to one phase power (with a start and run capacitor); it generates 
> the missing phase roughtly in dynamotor fashion.  Those can be built 
> (articles on the web) or bought from machinery supply companies such as Enco; 
> they show models up to 20 hp, i.e., about 15 kW.  When I was looking into 
> converters, I found VFDs to be the less expensive option.  The instant 
> reverse and variable frequency features were also attractive for lathe use; 
> for powering computers that would not apply.  Well, not unless you need 400 
> Hz for your Cyber 6600 -- in which case you'd need to check the VFD will go 
> that high, not all do.
> 
> Given that you have a number of smaller devices and that not all might need 
> to run, several smaller converters sounds like a good option, especially if 
> that gets you into the "economy VFD" range.

Yea, that’s what I’m struggling with.  The issue is that the control units 
power the devices that are connected to them (from what I can tell), so I have 
to power the entire string as one unit.  The same goes for the 3340’s - the 
entire string is powered as a unit.  The string of 3340’s need ~5kVA (I don’t 
know how that translates to HP).  I’m still trying to figure out the 
requirements for the other strings.

TTFN - Guy

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson  wrote:
>> 
>> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
 On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything
> but single-phase is pretty much out of the question.
 Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle.
 
 A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard shop,
 among other toys.  After he was laid off from his aerospace job doing
 machining it was how he made his living.  He was a very handy person
 to know :-)
 
 mcl
 
>>> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and Sheldon lathe) 
>>> and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus 
>>> variable speed and dynamic braking.
>>> 
>>> Jon
>>> 
>> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just to save 
>> anybody the trouble of correcting my error.
>> 
> 
> I’m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 gear.  I 
> haven’t quite added up the power requirements yet but I’m guessing its going 
> to be in the 10-15kVA range.  Since the power to all of the gear is really 
> split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 
> tape drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I 
> need to figure out if it’s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones.  
> It’s unlikely that I’d be running all of the peripherals at once.  The 4331 
> itself runs off of single phase 220v.

A VFD is a good option and may be quite economical if you get one of the low 
cost simple ones.  I have one (3 hp model for my lathe) that cost only a bit 
over $100, though the price has gone up since.  (Westinghouse TECO brand.)  
VFDs specified for single phase input tend to stop around 3 hp, as far as I 
have seen.  Rumor has it that higher power units will also work (possibly with 
some derating) even though they claim to be 3 phase input, when you feed them 
just one phase on 2 of the 3 wires.  I haven't tried that (but it matches how 
my VFD is connected).

The other option is a "rotary converter".  Basically that's a 3 phase motor 
connected to one phase power (with a start and run capacitor); it generates the 
missing phase roughtly in dynamotor fashion.  Those can be built (articles on 
the web) or bought from machinery supply companies such as Enco; they show 
models up to 20 hp, i.e., about 15 kW.  When I was looking into converters, I 
found VFDs to be the less expensive option.  The instant reverse and variable 
frequency features were also attractive for lathe use; for powering computers 
that would not apply.  Well, not unless you need 400 Hz for your Cyber 6600 -- 
in which case you'd need to check the VFD will go that high, not all do.

Given that you have a number of smaller devices and that not all might need to 
run, several smaller converters sounds like a good option, especially if that 
gets you into the "economy VFD" range.

paul

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Guy Sotomayor Jr]

> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> 
> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
>>> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
 But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything
 but single-phase is pretty much out of the question.
>>> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle.
>>> 
>>> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard shop,
>>> among other toys.  After he was laid off from his aerospace job doing
>>> machining it was how he made his living.  He was a very handy person
>>> to know :-)
>>> 
>>> mcl
>>> 
>> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and Sheldon lathe) 
>> and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus 
>> variable speed and dynamic braking.
>> 
>> Jon
>> 
> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just to save 
> anybody the trouble of correcting my error.
> 

I’m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 gear.  I 
haven’t quite added up the power requirements yet but I’m guessing its going to 
be in the 10-15kVA range.  Since the power to all of the gear is really split 
between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape 
drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to 
figure out if it’s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones.  It’s 
unlikely that I’d be running all of the peripherals at once.  The 4331 itself 
runs off of single phase 220v.

TTFN - Guy

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Jon Elson]

On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:

On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry 
Street, anything

but single-phase is pretty much out of the question.

Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle.

A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his 
backyard shop,
among other toys.  After he was laid off from his 
aerospace job doing
machining it was how he made his living.  He was a very 
handy person

to know :-)

mcl

I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill 
and Sheldon lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized 
VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus variable speed and 
dynamic braking.


Jon

And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 
wires, just to save anybody the trouble of correcting my error.


Jon

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Jon Elson]

On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:

On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:

But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything
but single-phase is pretty much out of the question.

Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle.

A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard shop,
among other toys.  After he was laid off from his aerospace job doing
machining it was how he made his living.  He was a very handy person
to know :-)

mcl

I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and 
Sheldon lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD.  
2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus variable speed and dynamic 
braking.


Jon

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Mark Linimon]

On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything
> but single-phase is pretty much out of the question.

Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle.

A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard shop,
among other toys.  After he was laid off from his aerospace job doing
machining it was how he made his living.  He was a very handy person
to know :-)

mcl

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Jon Elson]

On 11/07/2016 01:04 PM, et...@757.org wrote:



Hmmm it shouldn't be that hard in this day and age to come 
up with that kind of current assuming switchers would be 
clean enough. I have a home use LED video screen I 
assembled/am finishing from Chinese modules that runs on 
480 amps @ 5vdc, power supplies set me back maybe $300 or 
less. Could probably adjust them down or get similar units 
or higher quality stuff from surplus (Pioneer Magnetics, etc)
Switching supplies can be as clean as you need them to be, 
just a matter of proper filtering.


Jon

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Chuck Guzis]

On 11/07/2016 11:04 AM, et...@757.org wrote:

> Hmmm it shouldn't be that hard in this day and age to come up with
> that kind of current assuming switchers would be clean enough. I have
> a home use LED video screen I assembled/am finishing from Chinese
> modules that runs on 480 amps @ 5vdc, power supplies set me back
> maybe $300 or less. Could probably adjust them down or get similar
> units or higher quality stuff from surplus (Pioneer Magnetics, etc)

A lot depends on location.  If you're out in a rural area and serviced
by a Rural Electric Cooperative (REC), it's pretty easy, although there
are the initial costs for the cable, distribution box and transformer.
Farm equipment such as hay dryers tend to be 440V 3-phase, so it's not
something out of the ordinary.

Similarly, if you've got space in a commercial/industrial section of
town, 3-phase power almost goes along without mention.  Office buildings
and warehouses tend to have 3-phase service.

Of course, this is US practice.  If you were, say, in Germany, 3-phase
power is pretty standard for residential service--the only concern is
the current-carrying capacity.

But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything
but single-phase is pretty much out of the question.

--Chuck

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[ethan]

I wonder if LCM has ever measured the power draw of each of their big machines?


Do they run them on any sort of commercial PDU system? I'd hope so, not 
too expensive and they should be able to see real time at least the 
current draw.



--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[ethan]

Yes, that's how the 360's (at least mid-range) were set up.  You could tell, 
the converter-inverter was INSANELY loud, at a massively piercing audio 
frequency.  The key was that this one unit gave regulated AC power to all


Wild!

We tried to get a 370/145 running at a guy's house.  That had the 17 KVA 
motor generator set in the back (WAY more than a 145 needed, but they 
apparently used one MG set for a range of machines).  But, he only had 60 A 
240V single-phase service, and we couldn't even spin up the MG set with no 
load.  We built a static phase converter, but the imaginary current was over 
60 A.  Well, NO SURPRISE, if we'd just read the nameplate we would have known 
it was a fool's errand. The 3-phase line current on the thing was about 55 A, 
per 3-PHASE LINE, so running it off SINGLE-PHASE, the line current would HAVE 
to be 1.7 X that much, wouldn't it?  OF course!
We should have just scrapped the original 415 Hz power supplies and got our 
hands on a bank of 5V supplies and adapted them.  The thing ran off +1.2 and 
-3 V supplies at 390 A, although I think that was for the max configuration, 
this one had minimal internal memory, so should have been less.


Ah yea, the laser show geeks IIRC would run full 200A household service 
just to get 30A 3phase off of rotary converters. A used diesel generator 
set might be another option, or if you're REALLY lucky getting 3 phase 
from the utility without paying crazy (probably only going to work if 
you're next to commercial user that already has 3ph step down already in 
place.)


Hmmm it shouldn't be that hard in this day and age to come up with that 
kind of current assuming switchers would be clean enough. I have a home 
use LED video screen I assembled/am finishing from Chinese modules that 
runs on 480 amps @ 5vdc, power supplies set me back maybe $300 or less. 
Could probably adjust them down or get similar units or higher quality 
stuff from surplus (Pioneer Magnetics, etc)



--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Al Kossow]

I wonder if LCM has ever measured the power draw of each of their big machines?

On 11/7/16 10:25 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

> We tried to get a 370/145 running at a guy's house.  That had the 17 KVA 
> motor generator set in the back (WAY more than
> a 145 needed, but they apparently used one MG set for a range of machines).  
> But, he only had 60 A 240V single-phase
> service, and we couldn't even spin up the MG set with no load.  We built a 
> static phase converter, but the imaginary
> current was over 60 A.  Well, NO SURPRISE, if we'd just read the nameplate we 
> would have known it was a fool's errand.
> The 3-phase line current on the thing was about 55 A, per 3-PHASE LINE, so 
> running it off SINGLE-PHASE, the line current
> would HAVE to be 1.7 X that much, wouldn't it?  OF course!
>

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Jon Elson]

On 11/07/2016 10:59 AM, et...@757.org wrote:
All 370's ran off 415 Hz 3-phase power. The mid-sized 
ones had the motor-generator set built into the back of 
the machine.  The 415 Hz (regulated) power was 
transformed to low voltage and run through an 
inductor-input filter and then series pass regulated.  
They had a circuit they called an "electronic capacitor" 
that pulled extra current through the inductor during the 
voltage peaks, so the inductor carried enough current 
during the voltage valleys.  This reduced the ripple 
current on the capacitor banks.
The 360s ran off single-phase 120 V 2500 Hz power, 
produced by a "converter-inverter" unit in the back, that 
converted utility 3-phase power to DC, then inverted it 
with an SCR inverter. This made the DC power supplies in 
the machine quite small. Since they ran off regulated 
2500 Hz power, they dropped only a very small voltage 
across the series-pass transistor.

Jon


Am I getting this right?

So they take AC turn it to DC then turn it back to high 
frequency AC then turn it back to DC to drop the need for 
larger capacitors to keep the DC clean?


Pretty wild.

Yes, that's how the 360's (at least mid-range) were set up.  
You could tell, the converter-inverter was INSANELY loud, at 
a massively piercing audio frequency.  The key was that this 
one unit gave regulated AC power to all critical power 
supplies in the system, so they could skimp on regulation on 
the individual power supplies.
It actually didn't work so well, if you had crummy power, 
which we had a bad case on at Washington University in the 
70's - 80's.  They had 4160 V cables buried all over campus, 
fed from one transformer at the power plant.  These cables 
were in concrete "conduits" which had water leaks.  So the 
wires, with 4160 V on them, were essentially sitting in 
muddy water all the time, and corona discharges broke down 
the insulation.  We had one of these cables fail every 
couple months, with a massive power dip for a few seconds 
before the fuses cleared.  But, for weeks before the big 
POP, they would be arcing and flashing, which drove the 360 
crazy.  A small dip would cause things like control store 
parity errors, main store parity errors or just system 
power-on resets.  They got a Dranetz analyzer, and could 
correlate more than half the machine crashes with a power 
glitch.  They got some big Digital Power Systems 
ultra-isolation transformers, but I really don't think they 
helped much, as the problem was momentary dips.  (Later, 
shielded cables came in, these have a layer of copper mesh 
over the main insulation, so there is no AC field present on 
the outside of the cable.  As far as I know, the original 
shielded cables are still in there, once they got all the 
old unshielded stuff out, these problems just stopped 
happening.)
Anyone run any of this stuff at home / light commercial 
clubhouses?


We tried to get a 370/145 running at a guy's house.  That 
had the 17 KVA motor generator set in the back (WAY more 
than a 145 needed, but they apparently used one MG set for a 
range of machines).  But, he only had 60 A 240V single-phase 
service, and we couldn't even spin up the MG set with no 
load.  We built a static phase converter, but the imaginary 
current was over 60 A.  Well, NO SURPRISE, if we'd just read 
the nameplate we would have known it was a fool's errand. 
The 3-phase line current on the thing was about 55 A, per 
3-PHASE LINE, so running it off SINGLE-PHASE, the line 
current would HAVE to be 1.7 X that much, wouldn't it?  OF 
course!


We should have just scrapped the original 415 Hz power 
supplies and got our hands on a bank of 5V supplies and 
adapted them.  The thing ran off +1.2 and -3 V supplies at 
390 A, although I think that was for the max configuration, 
this one had minimal internal memory, so should have been less.


Jon

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[ethan]

Yup, all dumpstered by the company formerly known as Rackable

What survives is in the hands of collectors. They worked hard to save what
was still left at the end.

SGI was just as brutal to Cray. Scorched earth to their archives a decade 
before.



Ugh. To be fair, I even know CEOs today of companies making tech products 
that don't really like to look at the past or live in it -- they see 
themselves as focused on the future.


Still a shame they couldn't of at least shelved documentation and source. 
At the time of it's disposal it probably didn't seem relevant, and perhaps 
it isn't so much outside of those of us with nostalgia for the systems we 
grew up around or ones we dreamed of messing with.


Also, when I was younger (I didn't really participate in any of this hands 
on) I used to hang out in some IRC channels and remember seeing source 
code tarballs get passed around to things like SunOS, Solaris and IRIX. I 
guess they were leaked from companies with partner source code license 
contracts or insecure systems. Mostly used either as trophies or people 
looking for more security vulnerabilities (independent unauthorized source 
code audit I guess you would call it.) Right as it would happen you would 
see a bunch of new CERT advisories from some random group and it was like, 
"Yep, they're digging through that source tarball floating around." Those 
source tarballs are likely to still be out there somewhere.

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[ethan]

All 370's ran off 415 Hz 3-phase power.  The mid-sized ones had the 
motor-generator set built into the back of the machine.  The 415 Hz 
(regulated) power was transformed to low voltage and run through an 
inductor-input filter and then series pass regulated.  They had a circuit 
they called an "electronic capacitor" that pulled extra current through the 
inductor during the voltage peaks, so the inductor carried enough current 
during the voltage valleys.  This reduced the ripple current on the capacitor 
banks.
The 360s ran off single-phase 120 V 2500 Hz power, produced by a 
"converter-inverter" unit in the back, that converted utility 3-phase power 
to DC, then inverted it with an SCR inverter.  This made the DC power 
supplies in the machine quite small.  Since they ran off regulated 2500 Hz 
power, they dropped only a very small voltage across the series-pass 
transistor.

Jon


Am I getting this right?

So they take AC turn it to DC then turn it back to high frequency AC 
then turn it back to DC to drop the need for larger capacitors to keep 
the DC clean?


Pretty wild.

Anyone run any of this stuff at home / light commercial clubhouses?



--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Al Kossow]

On 11/7/16 8:46 AM, et...@757.org wrote:
> I think one of the guys might of
> mentioned you! But he talked as if much of that documentation was gone.
> 

Yup, all dumpstered by the company formerly known as Rackable

What survives is in the hands of collectors. They worked hard to save what
was still left at the end.

SGI was just as brutal to Cray. Scorched earth to their archives a decade 
before.

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[ethan]

Supercomputer collectors are like the mainframe collectors, they like to keep a 
low profile other than the
Cray-Cyber folks in Munich.


Those guys are cool, and I appreciate them putting notes online. My Crays 
had their hard disks removed and destroyed (came from high side / govt 
contractor / nuclear engineering for war machines.) When it came to trying 
to get info to re-install the OS I found that every collector I could find 
with a working machine -- it came to them with the OS installed and 
everything :-)


I have Unicos for the J90 series but I'm not 100% sure the release and 
stuff I have is compatible with my machine. It kernel panics on install 
boot -- could be a config thing or it could be the binaries I have are for 
some other version / iteration / etc.


I worked around a number of Cray employees as well and they had no idea.



I don't know what they do for software. We tried getting it with the last Cray 
we got, and got nowhere getting it released.


Yep, I hit the same thing. Cray was willing to write me permission to use 
though -- they faxed me document saying I was okay to run my system and 
such but they obviously weren't going to fork over the OS. At this point 
Cray had already switched hands and was out of the custom computer 
business and in the PC cluster business I think.


I wouldn't be surprised if Unicos like IRIX has licensed components in it 
and they can't distribute it even with it being old.


I was just in California / Silicon Valley for work and got to hang with 
some ex-SGI people that are friends of friend and I was asking them what 
happened to all the SGI documentation and stuff on the proprietary 
graphics systems and such -- any chance of it ever being cleared for 
release / does it still exist / etc. I think one of the guys might of 
mentioned you! But he talked as if much of that documentation was gone.



--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[aswood]

The Convex C38xx as well the Fujitsu VPP used isolation transformers.

Luckily I was able to save the Transformer for my C3880.

> Am 06.11.2016 um 19:57 schrieb Jon Elson :
> 
>> On 11/06/2016 12:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> On 11/06/2016 09:18 AM, et...@757.org wrote:
 But smaller than the Crays of the era. If it doesn't run on 400Hz,
 it's a 'mini' supercomputer.
>>> Hmmm I knew the earlier Crays often had motor generator setups and
>>> such but I thoght that was just for power filtering and maybe
>>> flywheels for ups setups. Didn't know they were 400hz! Odd!
>> Not at all--that goes back at least to the 1960s.  Consider the CDC
>> mainframes--MG sets providing 3-phase 400Hz power to variac-regulated
>> 3-phase fullwave rectifier setups.  The ripple frequency is 2400Hz and
>> has a very high DC component.
>> 
>> 
> All 370's ran off 415 Hz 3-phase power.  The mid-sized ones had the 
> motor-generator set built into the back of the machine.  The 415 Hz 
> (regulated) power was transformed to low voltage and run through an 
> inductor-input filter and then series pass regulated.  They had a circuit 
> they called an "electronic capacitor" that pulled extra current through the 
> inductor during the voltage peaks, so the inductor carried enough current 
> during the voltage valleys.  This reduced the ripple current on the capacitor 
> banks.
> 
> The 360s ran off single-phase 120 V 2500 Hz power, produced by a 
> "converter-inverter" unit in the back, that converted utility 3-phase power 
> to DC, then inverted it with an SCR inverter.  This made the DC power 
> supplies in the machine quite small.  Since they ran off regulated 2500 Hz 
> power, they dropped only a very small voltage across the series-pass 
> transistor.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Plamen Mihaylov]

The tapes are already spoken few weeks ago and they will travel to US. I
will share whatever is able to be recovered.


On Saturday, November 5, 2016, Al Kossow  wrote:

> check out http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-
> block-format-decoding.html
>
> he may be willing to try recovering what still exists on the tape
>
> like I say, what is there is pretty important to recover.
>
> On 11/5/16 1:57 PM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote:
> > All other tapes are far beyond repair, they are physically damaged
> > I double checked what I have been able to dump successfully:
> >
> > iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3
> > iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3.1
> > iPSC/860 Optional Software R3.3.1
> >
> > There were two more tapes - fortran compilers and forge software - also
> > damaged.
> > In case you are interested I've uploaded the dumps afterpeople.com/i860
> >
>
>

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Chuck Guzis]

On 11/06/2016 09:18 AM, et...@757.org wrote:
>> But smaller than the Crays of the era. If it doesn't run on 400Hz,
>> it's a 'mini' supercomputer.
> 
> Hmmm I knew the earlier Crays often had motor generator setups and
> such but I thoght that was just for power filtering and maybe
> flywheels for ups setups. Didn't know they were 400hz! Odd!

Not at all--that goes back at least to the 1960s.  Consider the CDC
mainframes--MG sets providing 3-phase 400Hz power to variac-regulated
3-phase fullwave rectifier setups.  The ripple frequency is 2400Hz and
has a very high DC component.

This is a very sensible arrangement, as the power supplies need not be
tailored to a specific line voltage or  frequency.

I'm somewhat surprised that no one talks much about cooling systems on
supercomputers, be it forced air or liquid nitrogen.  Both Cray and CDC
spent a fair amount of time and money on getting cooling to their big
machines.

How about cooling towers for the chilled water supply?

--Chuck

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Al Kossow]

On 11/6/16 9:18 AM, et...@757.org wrote:
> In my travels there is a guy named James who
> has/had a very nice Cray collection. Haven't talked to him in a few years 
> though hope he is doing well. He had some
> of the 6000 pounders IIRC.
> 

Supercomputer collectors are like the mainframe collectors, they like to keep a 
low profile other than the
Cray-Cyber folks in Munich.

I don't know what they do for software. We tried getting it with the last Cray 
we got, and got nowhere getting it released.

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[ethan]

But smaller than the Crays of the era.
If it doesn't run on 400Hz, it's a 'mini' supercomputer.


Hmmm I knew the earlier Crays often had motor generator setups and such 
but I thoght that was just for power filtering and maybe flywheels for 
ups setups. Didn't know they were 400hz! Odd!



CHM was really into collecting this sort of iron in the late 90's
as they were all getting scrapped.


Don't know that person off the top of my head. I owned a Maspar MP2 at one 
point (small!) and have owned some Cray J90 series (heavy.) I still think 
large SGIs are the friendly "supercomputer." In my travels there is a guy 
named James who has/had a very nice Cray collection. Haven't talked to 
him in a few years though hope he is doing well. He had some of the 6000 
pounders IIRC.




--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Al Kossow]

On 11/6/16 8:44 AM, et...@757.org wrote:

> The thing is, I don't remember it being a "mini" supercomputer at all. It had 
> the same gold decor that your images show,
> but it was large! Big cabinets!
>

But smaller than the Crays of the era.

If it doesn't run on 400Hz, it's a 'mini' supercomputer.

CHM was really into collecting this sort of iron in the late 90's
as they were all getting scrapped.

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[ethan]

I'm making arrangements to have four (mini-)supercomputers from the
1980's shipped to me. In the mean time, I'm trying to find out what I
can about these systems, so this is a fishing expedition.
The systems are:
* Convex C1-XP
* Convex C1-XL
* Intel iPSC/860
* Ardent Titan
Pictures of these can be found on my website, at
http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/collection/27-odd/76-four-supercomputers
(click on the thumbnails to see a larger version)


Wow! I don't know too much about Convex, but when I was younger I would go 
to NASA auctions trying to pick up SGI hardware, smaller supercomputers 
and ion laser systems. There was a Convex system at one of the earlier 
auctions I went to (NASA Langley in Hampton Virginia.)


The thing is, I don't remember it being a "mini" supercomputer at all. It 
had the same gold decor that your images show, but it was large! Big 
cabinets!


Like many of my peers here, I'm kind of a data hoarder so I just looked 
and sho' nuff I still have the pictures I took with an early digital 
camera at that NASA auction of the Convex that was up for sale:


http://imgur.com/Pqr7dJ4
http://imgur.com/hbyZ9pV

August 26, 2000!

Anyways, I didn't think I'd ever hear of any of those systems again. 
Kudos!

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Mike Ross]

On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 3:37 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> let me see if I can get this scanned this morning
> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102719961
>
> you also REALLY want to get any docs and tapes/disks out of there
> finding software is going to be extremely difficult

Jim Austin now has my Convex C220 and he took a bunch of manuals and
tapes I retrieved with the system. I *think* I was also able to supply
him with the root password...!

http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/fixed_pages/convex_c220.html

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Randy Dawson]

I can take the Titan off your hands if you like, I have really wanted this 
machine.  I am serious, and with $$.


Here is some things for you if you decide to keep it and turn me down.


A great book, all about its development and includes technical details about 
the Titan bus, and an intro By Gordon Bell:

The "Architecture of Supercomputers, Titan, a Case Study" Daniel P. Siewiorek, 
Philip Jonathan Koopman, Jr. ISBN 0-12-643060-8


This was sort of a promotional book, the sales guys would give this out to 
customers, also a complete shelf of documentation.


Their target market was scientific visualization, they had Stellar jumping into 
this also, so it was West Coast vs East coast and their was not enough market 
anyway, even as sexy as scientific visualization was at the time. They merged, 
then failed as Stardent.  Silicon Graphics hung on for bit longer with the 
movie industry, then they fell too.  (Note that Google HQ is the SGI building, 
I find it disgusting that they put pink flamingos around the Jurassic Park dino 
statue.)


The key software on the Ardent is Advanced Visualization System, AVS, an Ardent 
product that survived and still exists today.  It is a graphical data-flow type 
application, much like Labview or GNURadio are two examples that come to mind.  
You wire up function blocks to process and create the visualization stream, 
then the last key element is their Dore' (Dynamic Object Rendering Environment) 
that does all the wow factor graphics in realtime.  There was a knob box too, 
for XYZ or manipulating the data.


The Ardent roadshow had 'FLAG' as a demo with the knob box, you could adjust 
windspeed and direction, lighting also to see a fully rendered finite element 
model of a cloth flag waving in the wind in realtime.  Pretty impressive for 
the late '80s.


When it all crashed Kubota came in for the rescue (a tractor company???!!! wha? 
)


The spun out one more machine based on Intel's 'Cray on a chip' the i860.  I 
saw one of these, it was a desktop uinit, and reminded me of SGI's Indy.


Dore' is still out there and released to public domain, it was one of the 
'ports' in FreeBSD.  I did get it up and running with the 'Flag' demo.


I hope you get yours up and running on the real hardware.


Randy









From: cctech <cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org> on behalf of Camiel Vanderhoeven 
<iamcam...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 7:02 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information

I'm making arrangements to have four (mini-)supercomputers from the
1980's shipped to me. In the mean time, I'm trying to find out what I
can about these systems, so this is a fishing expedition.

The systems are:
* Convex C1-XP
* Convex C1-XL
* Intel iPSC/860
* Ardent Titan

Pictures of these can be found on my website, at
http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/collection/27-odd/76-four-supercomputers
Four Supercomputers - 
VAXBARN<http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/collection/27-odd/76-four-supercomputers>
www.vaxbarn.com
Hopefully, if all goes well, I will soon be the owner of three four 1980's 
(mini-)supercomputers, although I'm not 100% sure exactly what they are (more 
on that when ...


(click on the thumbnails to see a larger version)

I'd like to get in touch with anyone who knows anything about these
machines, as well as anyone who may have documentation, but I also
have two specific questions:

- Can anyone identify the tape drives shown in the pictures? I believe
the one in the Intel iPSC/860 is an Exabyte 8mm one, but the ones used
on the Convex and the Ardent are a mystery to me.

- Does anyone know what the SRM (System Resource Manager) for the
iPSC/860 physically looks like? Does it look like a PC, and does it
say Intel on the front?

Reason I'm asking is that I'm getting these out of an estate, and I
need to tell them what to look for.

Thanks,

Camiel.

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Eric Smith]

Around 1985, Tony Anderson of Intel gave me a tour of the Intel Scientific
Computers operations at their Oregon facility. At the time they were
building the 80286-based iPSC/1.  Seemed like pretty neat stuff.

That was where I learned that one shouldn't stick one's hands into a
computer while wearing metal jewelry (rings, watches, etc.), even if only
low voltages are present.  Fortunately I didn't have to learn it the hard
way.

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Plamen Mihaylov]

All other tapes are far beyond repair, they are physically damaged
I double checked what I have been able to dump successfully:

iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3
iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3.1
iPSC/860 Optional Software R3.3.1

There were two more tapes - fortran compilers and forge software - also
damaged.
In case you are interested I've uploaded the dumps afterpeople.com/i860

I hope I've been useful.

On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 10:33 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:

> The tape belts can be replaced. As long as the tape was not physically
> damaged
> it is worth spending time on recovering these, especially the SysV tape
> and the tools
>
> I just checked in the CHM catalog, and we have almost nothing for the
> Intel hypercubes
> though we have almost every model of machine.
>
>
> On 11/5/16 1:26 PM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote:
> > AFAIR only 2 or 3 survived due to bad tape cartridge belt
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 7:06 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> >
> >> apparently, these are links only Chrome understands
> >> they are pictures of intel cartridges
> >>
> >> are the tapes physically still in tact?
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/5/16 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote:
> >>> I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully:
> >>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff-
> >> lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> >>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_
> >> 1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfd
> >> w=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> >>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtR
> >> p6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Al Kossow]

check out 
http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html

he may be willing to try recovering what still exists on the tape

like I say, what is there is pretty important to recover.

On 11/5/16 1:57 PM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote:
> All other tapes are far beyond repair, they are physically damaged
> I double checked what I have been able to dump successfully:
> 
> iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3
> iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3.1
> iPSC/860 Optional Software R3.3.1
> 
> There were two more tapes - fortran compilers and forge software - also
> damaged.
> In case you are interested I've uploaded the dumps afterpeople.com/i860
> 

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Al Kossow]

The tape belts can be replaced. As long as the tape was not physically damaged
it is worth spending time on recovering these, especially the SysV tape and the 
tools

I just checked in the CHM catalog, and we have almost nothing for the Intel 
hypercubes
though we have almost every model of machine.


On 11/5/16 1:26 PM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote:
> AFAIR only 2 or 3 survived due to bad tape cartridge belt
> 
> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 7:06 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
>> apparently, these are links only Chrome understands
>> they are pictures of intel cartridges
>>
>> are the tapes physically still in tact?
>>
>>
>> On 11/5/16 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote:
>>> I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully:
>>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff-
>> lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
>>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_
>> 1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfd
>> w=w1920-h1200-rw-no
>>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtR
>> p6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
>>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Plamen Mihaylov]

AFAIR only 2 or 3 survived due to bad tape cartridge belt

On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 7:06 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:

> apparently, these are links only Chrome understands
> they are pictures of intel cartridges
>
> are the tapes physically still in tact?
>
>
> On 11/5/16 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote:
> > I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully:
> > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff-
> lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_
> 1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfd
> w=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtR
> p6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> >
>
>
>

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Dennis Boone]

 > - Can anyone identify the tape drives shown in the pictures? I
 > believe the one in the Intel iPSC/860 is an Exabyte 8mm one, but the
 > ones used on the Convex and the Ardent are a mystery to me.

All three look to me like QIC drives using DC600 cartridges.  For the
Convexen this also makes sense, because we had a C240 at work in the
90s, and software distribution tapes for it were on DC600 carts.  (I
have a box of them I need to image.)

De

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Al Kossow]

apparently, these are links only Chrome understands
they are pictures of intel cartridges

are the tapes physically still in tact?


On 11/5/16 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote:
> I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully:
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff-lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfdw=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtRp6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
> 

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Camiel Vanderhoeven]

Thanks, that is really helpful; chances are that the box will look similar.

On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> found a picture of a later generation machine
> http://dooki.com/supercomputers/intel/intel.ipsc860.4_i860_40mhz.gif
>
> On 11/5/16 8:34 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>>
>> never mind, that was just for diagnostics
>>
>> the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V
>>
>> it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with
>> a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT
>> box
>>
>> On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>>> there are no useful pictures in the brochures
>>>
>>> it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes
>>>
>>
>

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Camiel Vanderhoeven]

Hi Al,

I think you're mixing up the SRM (one per system) with the unit
service module. According to this document
http://www.par.univie.ac.at/publications/download/ipsc860.pdf, it's an
Intel SYP301. That appears to be an Intel 386 motherboard.

Camiel

On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 4:29 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> there are no useful pictures in the brochures
>
> it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes
>
> https://www.nas.nasa.gov/assets/pdf/techreports/1991/rnr-91-001.pdf
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20010619235148/http://www.npac.syr.edu/nse/hpccsurvey/orgs/intel/intel.html
> since the original appears to be gone
>
> Paul Pierce was archiving information on these systems. We have a little in 
> the CHM collection, not a whole
> lot on the PSC/860
>
> I have a manual set for the Paragon. It is in silver slipcases
>
>
> On 11/5/16 7:48 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
>> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
>>> let me see if I can get this scanned this morning
>>> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102719961
>>
>> That would be awesome!
>>
>>> you also REALLY want to get any docs and tapes/disks out of there
>>> finding software is going to be extremely difficult
>>
>> Yes, I realize that; the difficulty lies in directing them in what to
>> look for; "anything that says Intel, Ardent, or Convex on it" is a
>> good beginning, but the more specific I can be in what I ask for, the
>> higher the chance it'll turn up.
>>
>> Camiel.
>>
>>> On 11/5/16 7:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
>>>
 - Does anyone know what the SRM (System Resource Manager) for the
 iPSC/860 physically looks like? Does it look like a PC, and does it
 say Intel on the front?
>>>
>

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Al Kossow]

found a picture of a later generation machine
http://dooki.com/supercomputers/intel/intel.ipsc860.4_i860_40mhz.gif

On 11/5/16 8:34 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
> never mind, that was just for diagnostics
> 
> the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V
> 
> it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with
> a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT
> box
> 
> On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>> there are no useful pictures in the brochures
>>
>> it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes
>>
> 

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Al Kossow]

never mind, that was just for diagnostics

the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V

it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with
a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT
box

On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> there are no useful pictures in the brochures
> 
> it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes
>

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Plamen Mihaylov]

I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff-lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfdw=w1920-h1200-rw-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtRp6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no

On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:

>
> never mind, that was just for diagnostics
>
> the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V
>
> it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with
> a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT
> box
>
> On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> > there are no useful pictures in the brochures
> >
> > it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes
> >
>
>

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Al Kossow]

let me see if I can get this scanned this morning
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102719961

you also REALLY want to get any docs and tapes/disks out of there
finding software is going to be extremely difficult

On 11/5/16 7:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:

> - Does anyone know what the SRM (System Resource Manager) for the
> iPSC/860 physically looks like? Does it look like a PC, and does it
> say Intel on the front?

Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Camiel Vanderhoeven]

I'm making arrangements to have four (mini-)supercomputers from the
1980's shipped to me. In the mean time, I'm trying to find out what I
can about these systems, so this is a fishing expedition.

The systems are:
* Convex C1-XP
* Convex C1-XL
* Intel iPSC/860
* Ardent Titan

Pictures of these can be found on my website, at
http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/collection/27-odd/76-four-supercomputers
(click on the thumbnails to see a larger version)

I'd like to get in touch with anyone who knows anything about these
machines, as well as anyone who may have documentation, but I also
have two specific questions:

- Can anyone identify the tape drives shown in the pictures? I believe
the one in the Intel iPSC/860 is an Exabyte 8mm one, but the ones used
on the Convex and the Ardent are a mystery to me.

- Does anyone know what the SRM (System Resource Manager) for the
iPSC/860 physically looks like? Does it look like a PC, and does it
say Intel on the front?

Reason I'm asking is that I'm getting these out of an estate, and I
need to tell them what to look for.

Thanks,

Camiel.

Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information

[Camiel Vanderhoeven]

On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> let me see if I can get this scanned this morning
> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102719961

That would be awesome!

> you also REALLY want to get any docs and tapes/disks out of there
> finding software is going to be extremely difficult

Yes, I realize that; the difficulty lies in directing them in what to
look for; "anything that says Intel, Ardent, or Convex on it" is a
good beginning, but the more specific I can be in what I ask for, the
higher the chance it'll turn up.

Camiel.

> On 11/5/16 7:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
>
>> - Does anyone know what the SRM (System Resource Manager) for the
>> iPSC/860 physically looks like? Does it look like a PC, and does it
>> say Intel on the front?
>