RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
I have to disagree with this. There is a difference between a hobbyist and a developer. The hobbyist might not think that the application would need some sort of structure to it, but a developer who has created a couple of shopping carts or some other sort of dynamic application would probably agree with placing a structure in the app and or methodology. My belief with Fusebox, MACH-II, and a couple of the other communities out there that most of the CMFL community are developers and not just hobbyist. I mean come on, out side of BlueDragon being the only free CFML server, it would kind of be expensive to be a hobbyist with CFML. So I would say that you comment is wrong about average CFML developer. Jason L. West, Sr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Get Firefox!!! -Original Message- From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 17:06 To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? well - that's the difference between a CF developer and a Java developer. ALL SITES (let's assume I mean all dynamic sites - ignore static things) require Objects according to the average Java developer. Even the simple ones. The average CF Developer probably wouldn't say the same. Yes - a 5 page brochure site should have at least one object representing the brochure - probably another representing the person looking at it. That's true whether you use CF or Java. You know, if you dump the session scope in most apps I write, there's nothing but objects in it. That's because I develop CF Apps the same way any other J2EE developer would. Is it overkill? That depends on who you ask... but I tell you what, to get back to the original topic, I'd take a CF Developer who's asking for a high salary much more seriously if they showed me a code sample and it was built that way. As a matter of fact, at my last job I made more money than any of the java developers! ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Ian Skinner wrote: I like that the question was build a simple site but this simple site needed objects, ties and business logic. Sounds a bit advance for a simple five page brochure site. Just an obsveration that one developers simple is anothers too complex for the job. Not saying anything about CF vs Java here, just commenting on the question. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning -Original Message- From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? Rob wrote: I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective). Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in java as it is in CF. Rob - I did say more so. Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code and I've seen a lot of bad CF code. However, if you chose 500 CF Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications would be designed and developed less than perfectly. Like I said, that's not the fault of CF it's the fault of the CF developers, BUT the reason behind it is partly CF's fault because it's easier to develop things the wrong way. Java is an Object Oriented language, and most Java developers will separate their app into objects and tiers. The code in their JSP tags, JSP pages, servlets, and Beans may not be great but at least the code IS encapsulated as such. With CF Developers it's more likely you'll end p with a mix of presentation and business logic, as well as unnecessary or poorly thought-out objects, because though it allows it, CF doesn't encourage encapsulation or object orientation. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2508 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
At 09:59 AM 5/2/2005, you wrote: I did not run the numbers, but my friend who read some of the articles on them said it came out to a $23 million per year savings to use their approach. I bet that could easily pay for the maint on a ship, but could not even imagine what the initial cost of the ship would be. If everyone just ran businesses with community responsibility in mind, we'd all be better off. I know if I were to ever start a business that employed others it would be an insourcing project centered in some rural area where land is cheap. Companies really should try to employ their country's own people before seeking the cheapest international alternative. If it means spending a little extra, so be it. You get good PR and you help the overall economy in the process. There is more to life than profit by any means necessary. It's silly that in this technological day and age that techies should have to concentrate themselves into a few uber expensive hubs like Silicon Valley. Companies should grow some balls and learn how to stick a shovel into some sh*t-hole in the middle of nowhere and build a new community from the ground up. Maybe everyone needs the nightlife of a big city or something. I don't. I know a lot of people would probably love to relocate to somewhere cheap like that if they thought the company was going to last long enough to set down roots there and keep them employed. If I could build a house for peanuts out in the boonies I could afford to make half my salary and still live comfortably. As it is, I'm probably making more than any of you on this list and I don't think I can save enough (as a single dad) for a downpayment on a condo here in Culver City. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2506 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
That's crazy, the cost of running one of those vessels just can't be cost effective. Fred On Friday 29 April 2005 16:10, Aaron Rouse wrote: Maybe they could put a ship out off the coast near NYC http://www.sea-code.com/ On 4/29/05, Kristopher Pilles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could outsource the spot? Probally cost you 1k per month for a guy in India. -Original Message- From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:48 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't live in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ and surrounding NY boros which are a lot more reasonable when it comes to cost of living. ecommerce partners, inc. Daniel Brown ECommerce Partners 59 Franklin Street New York N.Y 10013 T 212-334-3390 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ecommercepartners.net http://www.ecommercepartners.net www.7Designers.com http://www.7Designers.com Directions to our office -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:43 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and 50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may not even consider telecommuting for 50k. I would think 50k in NY for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would have to expect atleast $70k to consider.. A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week. Adam H On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge. net Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is anywhere near true. I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2504 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
At 05:32 AM 4/30/2005, you wrote: I don't know that I agree with this...I know plenty of Java developers that haven't done a spot of GUI programing...doesn't mean they couldn't learn it to get the job done but you could easily have a mid level java architect that hasn't ever made a GUI. Yes, but they could one day do that if the job required it, and all they'd need to know are more APIs. They wouldn't have to learn a whole new language like CF programmers would. So that automatically makes them more versatile. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2501 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
CF is a web application language. It's not a language you can write multithreaded GUI applications in the way you can in Java or .NET. It's not a general purpose desktop application language. So if you know Java or .NET, presumably you can do more varied kinds of work like more robust back end processing applications or in-house GUI tools or shrinkwrapped software. CF developers write for the web and that's that. I have written backend services in CF and it's really not its strong point, believe me. At 12:50 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: Thats an easy one CF is simple and not [as] complex...java is, rather has the ability to be much more complex, powerful and robust, not to say Coldfusion is not powerful infact it is, very powerful, but limitations are much more easily hit in CF than in Java, or .NET for those .NET lovers. But thats my 2 cents :) ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2493 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Nicely put; I agree. Most of the coders in my environment could care less if cfif #bob# EQ Glenn is bad code (simplistic example but gives an idea). And yes in our workplace CF has definetely taken the 2nd class rate. It is very frustrating having programers that have not only ever heard of getters and setters but want to have a training session on how to use themYou set then you get...this is also a product of still being stuck in the 90's with CF5, not that the 90's were bad mind you! Code reivews are sparse if at all. I was just helping a co-worker with a problem the other day and noticed while he was using cfqueryparam in Where clause he was not in the INSERT statementwhy? no one ever told him to use them there and the examples he saw were for select statements. So his code will go into production wrong then the next person will come along use his codebase as examples and viola the bad coding proliferates. This is the case in any programming language, or any learned practice, but it tends to be very wide spread in CF for the exact reasons you mentioned. Adam H On 4/30/05, Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:49 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: I also think part of this is that there isn't enough supervision in places that use CF so that bad habits predominate. For instance, rarely have I ever interviewed someone who didn't write code like this: CFSET a = #b# or CFSET a = #b# Obviously, CF is part of the problem for being so forgiving, but there is a lack of a serious engineering mindset in the CF world. The people who are employing coders who write the above don't care because the applications still work. They don't care how elegant the codebase is or whether it's a Rube Golberg device as long as it works. So nobody forces them to change. They spin their wheels for a couple years until they get layed off or something and they walk into a job interview with 2-3 years of CF listed on their resume and they are still chock full of bad coding habits!! The CF culture brings in people from non-engineering backgrounds, ex Flash animators, designers who are doing double-duty. People who cracked open the Forta book and learned enough to get by on the job and don't necessarily have the drive to improve their code because their passions really lie elsewhere. And that's how this culture evolved. That's why CF coders are treated like 2nd class citizens. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2495 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
So if you know Java or .NET, presumably you can do more varied kinds of work like more robust back end processing applications or in-house GUI tools or shrinkwrapped software. I don't know that I agree with this...I know plenty of Java developers that haven't done a spot of GUI programing...doesn't mean they couldn't learn it to get the job done but you could easily have a mid level java architect that hasn't ever made a GUI. Adam H On 4/30/05, Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: CF is a web application language. It's not a language you can write multithreaded GUI applications in the way you can in Java or .NET. It's not a general purpose desktop application language. So if you know Java or .NET, presumably you can do more varied kinds of work like more robust back end processing applications or in-house GUI tools or shrinkwrapped software. CF developers write for the web and that's that. I have written backend services in CF and it's really not its strong point, believe me. At 12:50 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: Thats an easy one CF is simple and not [as] complex...java is, rather has the ability to be much more complex, powerful and robust, not to say Coldfusion is not powerful infact it is, very powerful, but limitations are much more easily hit in CF than in Java, or .NET for those .NET lovers. But thats my 2 cents :) ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2496 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
ditto from me. I have been doing CF for over 5 years now in my company and every team I have been on has absolutely no code review, code standards, versioning, etc. I've struggled constantly to get them employedwait until I'm in charge! LOL! I recently had to 'mentor' two noobs in CF. Neither of them knows what an object is let alone a CFC or getters/setters. And yes, they require actual training to scribble down 'SELECT * FROM table' it seems. One thing I have noticed is that since CF is considered a RAD tool, we tend to get projects that are short-lived, small, mediocre complexity, etc. And the business, or customers, want results yesterday. All these combine into fast written ugly code. In my company the big enterprise type projects go to the J2EE world. DK On 4/30/05, Adam Haskell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nicely put; I agree. Most of the coders in my environment could care less if cfif #bob# EQ Glenn is bad code (simplistic example but gives an idea). And yes in our workplace CF has definetely taken the 2nd class rate. It is very frustrating having programers that have not only ever heard of getters and setters but want to have a training session on how to use themYou set then you get...this is also a product of still being stuck in the 90's with CF5, not that the 90's were bad mind you! Code reivews are sparse if at all. I was just helping a co-worker with a problem the other day and noticed while he was using cfqueryparam in Where clause he was not in the INSERT statementwhy? no one ever told him to use them there and the examples he saw were for select statements. So his code will go into production wrong then the next person will come along use his codebase as examples and viola the bad coding proliferates. This is the case in any programming language, or any learned practice, but it tends to be very wide spread in CF for the exact reasons you mentioned. Adam H On 4/30/05, Glenn Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:49 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: I also think part of this is that there isn't enough supervision in places that use CF so that bad habits predominate. For instance, rarely have I ever interviewed someone who didn't write code like this: CFSET a = #b# or CFSET a = #b# Obviously, CF is part of the problem for being so forgiving, but there is a lack of a serious engineering mindset in the CF world. The people who are employing coders who write the above don't care because the applications still work. They don't care how elegant the codebase is or whether it's a Rube Golberg device as long as it works. So nobody forces them to change. They spin their wheels for a couple years until they get layed off or something and they walk into a job interview with 2-3 years of CF listed on their resume and they are still chock full of bad coding habits!! The CF culture brings in people from non-engineering backgrounds, ex Flash animators, designers who are doing double-duty. People who cracked open the Forta book and learned enough to get by on the job and don't necessarily have the drive to improve their code because their passions really lie elsewhere. And that's how this culture evolved. That's why CF coders are treated like 2nd class citizens. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2497 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
On 4/29/05, Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I mentioned this before on this list, but... Ben Forta mentioned (at Powered by Detroit) that one of the biggest recruiting firms in the US doesn't put CF in the job description when looking for CF Developers. They look for Java Developers. ( This is all paraphrased, of course ). But, these are enterprise level companies who use Java in the backend and CF for front end stuff / middleware. The reasoning for this is similar to what Simon said below. CF Developer's write bad code. I think the reason for this is that many CF Developers are not programmers by trade. They do what it takes to get the job done, without thought to maintenance, re-use, structure, etc.. I'm working on one app now, which has (for example)... templates with ~2,500 lines of code, only one line of documentation (which says begin and offers no more explanation) and very long lines (for example, an if statement with 5 else conditions written out on a single line ). Formatted w/ an eye for readability I'm sure the template would double in size. That and 50+ queries in one CF page, some of which are repeated. Worst code I have ever seen bar none. DK At 04:10 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: at the risk of being publicly yelled at, I'll also say that in my experience, the quality of work of most CF Developers isn't deserving of a high salary. That's not to say that there aren't Java developers who write poor code, but Java pretty much forces you to use good coding techniques moreso than CF. CF makes it easy to write bad code. That's not a bad thing, unless people choose to take the easy route and write bad code (whch many do). There's no reason why a CF developer that's building complex enterprise applications shouldn't be earning as much as a java developer building complex enterprise applications, provided they're both competent. To be honest, most Java developers are more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java - there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them. An expert CF Developer is really worth more than an expert java developer in my opinion because they have complete mastery of their environment as opposed to mastery of part and competence in the rest. Just an observation I've had (and I've worked with A LOT of Java developers). ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in, let's say, downtown NY? Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is for CF developers who are doing only coding??? Daniel On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do. This is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent architect, programmer, or even tester. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than others?? Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena! Daniel On 4/29/05, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2498 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription:
Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone? The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience. On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2431 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
$45-50K is right for a mid-level CF developer in the woods of Eastern Connecticut. I must assume that the cost of living is a little higher in NYC. Jerry Johnson Web Developer Dolan Media Company -Original Message- From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone? The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience. On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2434 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
If you offered my 50k to telecommute I would give my notice today. (1 office visit a week would be fine by me) KP -Original Message- From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone? The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience. On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2436 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so. That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. A W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually get money back which is why I always try for a W2 if I can. maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US. viktors Daniel Brown wrote: I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone? The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience. On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2440 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Also, this (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96196,00.html) will give you an idea. Daniel On 4/29/05, Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so. That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. A W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually get money back which is why I always try for a W2 if I can. maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US. viktors Daniel Brown wrote: I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone? The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience. On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2441 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Thanks Michael and Daniel! Daniel Kang wrote: Also, this (http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96196,00.html) will give you an idea. Daniel On 4/29/05, Michael Dinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so. That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. A W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually get money back which is why I always try for a W2 if I can. maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US. viktors Daniel Brown wrote: I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone? The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience. On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2443 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
50K a year in Southern California would get you nowhere... -Original Message- From: Ray Champagne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:54 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? LOLone could argue the converse of that, too. Where are all the jobs for the mid-level developers? Seriously, this is the first one I have seen in a while. Being a mid-level developer myself, I keep an eye out for them, somewhat. I am happy where I am at, but it never hurts to look over the fence to the other side! Let me ask a question - is $50K a good salary for a NYC job? In other words, could one live comfortably with that salary in that region? I'd take that salary in a heartbeat here in New Hampshire, but I'm sure that our living expenses are much lower that in NY. Ray Daniel Brown wrote: I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone? The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience. On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2446 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
$11.93 in Southern California after... Federal Income Tax State Income Tax Sales Tax Property Tax Gas Tax Soc Security Tax Medicare Tax -Original Message- From: Viktors Rotanovs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 11:09 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? Hi, maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US. viktors Daniel Brown wrote: I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone? The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience. On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2448 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
I was curious about that as well. Right now I am doing 1099 and making my quartly payments. I figure about 35% of my income towards taxes. When I look at my paychecks I feel like a rich man, too bad once I pay taxes(on my own) and deal with medical and so on, I am not really clearing a ton of money. :( On 4/29/05, Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I budget 40% of all my income for taxes. Basically, 33% to the government plus an additional 7% (I think that is the employers portion of Social Security). Michael, I'm very curious as to what type of deductions you are taking as a W2 employee that eliminates your tax burden, vs what you are taking as a contractor. Do you just mean as a W2 they take out money each paycheck, whereas w/ a 1099 you have to pay quarterly (on your own)? ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2449 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Exactly. W2 has the taxes on income taken out by the employer while a 1099 expects you to do it. My last 'contract' was supposed to be a W2 but they 1099ed me instead. As for reducing the burden, I've got children who go to private school, a wife who does not work outside the house (Fusion Authority is not a paying job), a business (House of Fusion) that makes almost no money a year while having expenses (the machines, software, etc.) and various work related equipment. A W2 employee can't take transportation or business meals as an expense but a 1099 person can. A person with a small business (such as me) can take certain business related expenses for hardware, software, books, conferences, etc. It's all a game between the government, a company and a person. Unfortunately I'm losing it. :( Michael, I'm very curious as to what type of deductions you are taking as a W2 employee that eliminates your tax burden, vs what you are taking as a contractor. Do you just mean as a W2 they take out money each paycheck, whereas w/ a 1099 you have to pay quarterly (on your own)? At 02:15 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: Counts on many things. For me with a wife and 3 kids, I pay about 33% or so. That means around 34k after taxes but various deductions can reduce the burden to 5% or less. That's on a 1099, which is a contractors agreement. A W2 (employee) allows you to reduce your tax burden past 0% and actually get money back which is why I always try for a W2 if I can. maybe that's a little bit offtopic, but how much is left from $50k after paying taxes? Sorry I don't live in the US. viktors Daniel Brown wrote: I manage a small (getting smaller!) team of CF developers for a web development company in downtown NY specialising in ecommerce, and we now have 2 positions for mid-level developers that have been open for months. Where have all the CF developers gone? The only people I have applying for this position have almost no experience. On the rare occassions someone walks through the door who is at about the right level they want to be paid the earth - if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2450 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which are worth alot less than US dollars. As far as I can tell the average salary for a fast food manager in NY is $25k/yr. http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886 Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is anywhere near true Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000 and $50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business they work in. Many people are self-employed. http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm google On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge. net ... I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that. http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2457 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
My cousin is a manager for Checkers here in NY and he pulls about 75k per year -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:28 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is anywhere near true Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000 and $50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business they work in. Many people are self-employed. http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm google On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge. net ... I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2458 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
BAH! I suck But really, check out Carl's Jr. Managers - when I got my first CF job (50K) my dad was berly making more than me at like 65K (that was quite a while ago too) On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which are worth alot less than US dollars. As far as I can tell the average salary for a fast food manager in NY is $25k/yr. http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886 Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is anywhere near true Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000 and $50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business they work in. Many people are self-employed. http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm google On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge. net ... I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that. http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886 ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2459 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
And I cant spell to boot... But really, check out Carl's Jr. Managers - when I got my first CF job (50K) my dad was *barely* making more than me at like 65K (that was quite a while ago too) On 4/29/05, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BAH! I suck On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which are worth alot less than US dollars. As far as I can tell the average salary for a fast food manager in NY is $25k/yr. http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886 Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is anywhere near true Salaries vary, but fast food managers usually earn between $25,000 and $50,000 per year, according to experience and the type of business they work in. Many people are self-employed. http://www.kiwicareers.govt.nz/jobs/5b_hos/j80308x.htm google On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge. net ... I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that. http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2461 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and 50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may not even consider telecommuting for 50k. I would think 50k in NY for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would have to expect atleast $70k to consider.. A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week. Adam H On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge. net Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is anywhere near true. I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2464 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Ah yeah I see - I am in California and that's median... Cal = 40K On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dude, that's in new zealand, presumably in New Zealand dollars, which are worth alot less than US dollars. As far as I can tell the average salary for a fast food manager in NY is $25k/yr. http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-22558/fid-6886 Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is anywhere near true -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2463 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than others?? Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena! Daniel On 4/29/05, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2465 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't live in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ and surrounding NY boros which are a lot more reasonable when it comes to cost of living. ecommerce partners, inc. Daniel Brown ECommerce Partners 59 Franklin Street New York N.Y 10013 T 212-334-3390 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ecommercepartners.net www.7Designers.com Directions to our office -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:43 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and 50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may not even consider telecommuting for 50k. I would think 50k in NY for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would have to expect atleast $70k to consider.. A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week. Adam H On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge. net Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is anywhere near true. I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2466 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Thats an easy one CF is simple and not [as] complex...java is, rather has the ability to be much more complex, powerful and robust, not to say Coldfusion is not powerful infact it is, very powerful, but limitations are much more easily hit in CF than in Java, or .NET for those .NET lovers. But thats my 2 cents :) Adam H On 4/29/05, Daniel Kang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than others?? Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena! Daniel ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2467 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do. This is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent architect, programmer, or even tester. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than others?? Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena! Daniel On 4/29/05, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2469 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in, let's say, downtown NY? Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is for CF developers who are doing only coding??? Daniel On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do. This is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent architect, programmer, or even tester. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than others?? Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena! Daniel On 4/29/05, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2471 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
You could outsource the spot? Probally cost you 1k per month for a guy in India. -Original Message- From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:48 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? Like I said earlier, probably most people who work in Manhattan don't live in Manhattan - there is easy commute from NJ and surrounding NY boros which are a lot more reasonable when it comes to cost of living. ecommerce partners, inc. Daniel Brown ECommerce Partners 59 Franklin Street New York N.Y 10013 T 212-334-3390 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ecommercepartners.net www.7Designers.com Directions to our office -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 3:43 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? I'm MIDish level(2 years in offices + 3 years as hobby/consulting) and 50k would not get me to move to NY heck depending on benifits I may not even consider telecommuting for 50k. I would think 50k in NY for midlevel sounds rather low but maybe I am off...I would expect atleast 55k maybe more depending on cost of living in neihboring cities I looked at Cost of living in Manhatten and its saying I would have to expect atleast $70k to consider.. A friend of mine was a manager at Best Buy (mid level store) in Ohio and made 45k + bonuses which ussually got him to 50k by the end of the year. However if you figured his hourly wage it was pretty low b/c he ussually averaged 50-55 hours /week. Adam H On 4/29/05, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge. net Fast food managers earn more than $60k/yr? I don't think that is anywhere near true. I used to know someone who worked assistance manager at Mcdonalds for $8/hr, although that was a couple years ago, I doubt managers earn so much more than that. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2472 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
at the risk of being publicly yelled at, I'll also say that in my experience, the quality of work of most CF Developers isn't deserving of a high salary. That's not to say that there aren't Java developers who write poor code, but Java pretty much forces you to use good coding techniques moreso than CF. CF makes it easy to write bad code. That's not a bad thing, unless people choose to take the easy route and write bad code (whch many do). There's no reason why a CF developer that's building complex enterprise applications shouldn't be earning as much as a java developer building complex enterprise applications, provided they're both competent. To be honest, most Java developers are more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java - there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them. An expert CF Developer is really worth more than an expert java developer in my opinion because they have complete mastery of their environment as opposed to mastery of part and competence in the rest. Just an observation I've had (and I've worked with A LOT of Java developers). ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in, let's say, downtown NY? Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is for CF developers who are doing only coding??? Daniel On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do. This is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent architect, programmer, or even tester. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than others?? Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena! Daniel On 4/29/05, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2474 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Perhaps what you think is mid-level, others think is jr level? What does a Jr level CF person get in that area? I once applied for a Sr level full time job here with this company I am at now as a contractor. They never posted the pay range, I just assumed it wouldbe around what everyone else pays. When I got the job offer it was unbelieveably low, below 50k but I do not recall the exact number. I remember at the time thinking I could make more money being a manager at the WalMart near my home once factoring in less driving and so on. After seeing some of the projects the person they hired put out, they really should not have been looking for a Sr level person and most certainly did not hire someone who is at that level. On 4/29/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/29/2005 1:49:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: All we want are 2 solid developers with 2-3 years experience. Is a $50k salary really too little to expect to be able to find someone appropriate? ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2476 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
As I've seen a LOT of CF code in my life, I have to agree. CF is too easy. It allows someone to get away with murder and it'll still work. That's why I'm really happy for the push in the CF world towards OO. Not that it should be followed religiously, but just learning it will force people to rethink their code. I'm also happy that I'm stuck on limited hardware. Too often people are on quad gigahertz machines with gigabytes of ram. This allows them to write poor code and not worry about performance or cleanliness. I'm on a 650mhz with 640 meg of ram. House of Fusion HAS to be written tight. I think everyone should be forced to write at least one project on inferior hardware just to force them to think of what they're doing. I think everyone should be FORCED to read a book on coding methodologies and design at least once a year. I think everyone should be FORCED to put their code up for review so others can pick it apart. Make the developer want to do it the best they can. at the risk of being publicly yelled at, I'll also say that in my experience, the quality of work of most CF Developers isn't deserving of a high salary. That's not to say that there aren't Java developers who write poor code, but Java pretty much forces you to use good coding techniques moreso than CF. CF makes it easy to write bad code. That's not a bad thing, unless people choose to take the easy route and write bad code (whch many do). There's no reason why a CF developer that's building complex enterprise applications shouldn't be earning as much as a java developer building complex enterprise applications, provided they're both competent. To be honest, most Java developers are more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java - there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them. An expert CF Developer is really worth more than an expert java developer in my opinion because they have complete mastery of their environment as opposed to mastery of part and competence in the rest. Just an observation I've had (and I've worked with A LOT of Java developers). ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in, let's say, downtown NY? Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is for CF developers who are doing only coding??? Daniel On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do. This is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent architect, programmer, or even tester. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than others?? Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena! Daniel On 4/29/05, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2479 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
well - that's the difference between a CF developer and a Java developer. ALL SITES (let's assume I mean all dynamic sites - ignore static things) require Objects according to the average Java developer. Even the simple ones. The average CF Developer probably wouldn't say the same. Yes - a 5 page brochure site should have at least one object representing the brochure - probably another representing the person looking at it. That's true whether you use CF or Java. You know, if you dump the session scope in most apps I write, there's nothing but objects in it. That's because I develop CF Apps the same way any other J2EE developer would. Is it overkill? That depends on who you ask... but I tell you what, to get back to the original topic, I'd take a CF Developer who's asking for a high salary much more seriously if they showed me a code sample and it was built that way. As a matter of fact, at my last job I made more money than any of the java developers! ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Ian Skinner wrote: I like that the question was build a simple site but this simple site needed objects, ties and business logic. Sounds a bit advance for a simple five page brochure site. Just an obsveration that one developers simple is anothers too complex for the job. Not saying anything about CF vs Java here, just commenting on the question. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning -Original Message- From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:50 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? Rob wrote: I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective). Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in java as it is in CF. Rob - I did say more so. Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code and I've seen a lot of bad CF code. However, if you chose 500 CF Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications would be designed and developed less than perfectly. Like I said, that's not the fault of CF it's the fault of the CF developers, BUT the reason behind it is partly CF's fault because it's easier to develop things the wrong way. Java is an Object Oriented language, and most Java developers will separate their app into objects and tiers. The code in their JSP tags, JSP pages, servlets, and Beans may not be great but at least the code IS encapsulated as such. With CF Developers it's more likely you'll end p with a mix of presentation and business logic, as well as unnecessary or poorly thought-out objects, because though it allows it, CF doesn't encourage encapsulation or object orientation. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2486 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
yes, a CF Developer would build the site quicker, but there's no reason not to build a simple site in Java if Java is what your company uses. As for full blown tiered architecture I disagreee with you (I think - it depends on what you mean, really). A simple site that needs two objects - a brochure and a user, and has a couple views of pages showing brochure information should most likely be represented this way (to me - and remember, I am a bit of a purist when it comes to architecture): In Java: two Beans (not EJBs in something simple like this) JSP Custom tags that talk to the beans and generate UI for pages and for Bean data JSP files that call the JSP tags In CF: two CFCs CFM Custom Tags that talk to the CFCs and generate UIs for pages and for CFC data CFM files that call the CF Tags Do you really see much difference betweeen the two? Hardly. This is how I develop everything for the most part. The last project I was on, I spent a great deal of my time advising a team of Java developers on architecture even though it was them who had to actually build it... because architecture isn't concerned with the inner workings... the way you design and model software should be the same whether it's going to be implemented in CF or Java. Obviously, Java does have one building construct for which there is no good equivellant in CFML, which is a servlet. There are sticky implementation issues when something's been modelled for implementation with servlets but is going to be implemented in CFML. Because the CF Server is a servlet pool of sorts, the easiest way to do that is to create the direcories required and a cfm (which then calls a tag which talks to CFCs) or to do the same but use SES URLs. If it's a servlet filter, CFMX 7's application framework fortunately lets you achieve the results you're looking for. It all depends on what the servlets are intended to do but like I said, these are stickier to implement. Fortunately, more often than not in my experience servlets aren't a requirement unless used for filtering requests and responses. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Brown wrote: For a simple site JAVA and a full blown tiered architecture are total overkill. I bet everything I've got that the CF developers would develop the simple site in a lot less time ;-) -Original Message- From: Simon Horwith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 4:50 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? Rob wrote: I disagree with that whole heartedly - I have seen some really bad java code that was totally wrong (from a methodology perspective). Methods that are thousands of lines long, classes used in the wrong place for the wrong thing. It's just as easy to write spaghetti in java as it is in CF. Rob - I did say more so. Believe me, I've seen a lot of bad Java Code and I've seen a lot of bad CF code. However, if you chose 500 CF Developers at random and asked them to build a simple site and you picked 500 Java developers at random and asked them to do the same, I'd bet everything I've got that a larger percentage of the CF applications would be designed and developed less than perfectly. Like I said, that's not the fault of CF it's the fault of the CF developers, BUT the reason behind it is partly CF's fault because it's easier to develop things the wrong way. Java is an Object Oriented language, and most Java developers will separate their app into objects and tiers. The code in their JSP tags, JSP pages, servlets, and Beans may not be great but at least the code IS encapsulated as such. With CF Developers it's more likely you'll end p with a mix of presentation and business logic, as well as unnecessary or poorly thought-out objects, because though it allows it, CF doesn't encourage encapsulation or object orientation. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2487 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
Maybe, maybe not. Yes there is some minor (very minor) overhead when instantiating an object and passing data (by reference) to it but not much more so than using a custom tag or UDF. If you know what your doing and cache the objects than this overhead is pretty much gone and all your left with is clean, organized code. The main drawback with OO is that people either don't know what they're doing or they are following it strictly to the OO letter rather than adapting the best of it to CF. Isn't one of the drawbacks of OO architecture that it tends to use more resources? Isn't it true that people are willing to make that sacrifice to make more manageable code? ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2489 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Where are all the mid-level CF developers?
I have not heard any comparisons between OO and Procedural programming in terms of performance. But, that said I would not expect the amount of resources needed to differ greatly between well-organized procedural code vs well organized OO code. However, most of the CF code out there is just a whole lot of mish-mash. Considering that any given application spends most of its life in maintenance mode, I think anything you can do to ease maintenance would be of high importance. At 05:05 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: Isn't one of the drawbacks of OO architecture that it tends to use more resources? Isn't it true that people are willing to make that sacrifice to make more manageable code? -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 4:51 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are all the mid-level CF developers? As I've seen a LOT of CF code in my life, I have to agree. CF is too easy. It allows someone to get away with murder and it'll still work. That's why I'm really happy for the push in the CF world towards OO. Not that it should be followed religiously, but just learning it will force people to rethink their code. I'm also happy that I'm stuck on limited hardware. Too often people are on quad gigahertz machines with gigabytes of ram. This allows them to write poor code and not worry about performance or cleanliness. I'm on a 650mhz with 640 meg of ram. House of Fusion HAS to be written tight. I think everyone should be forced to write at least one project on inferior hardware just to force them to think of what they're doing. I think everyone should be FORCED to read a book on coding methodologies and design at least once a year. I think everyone should be FORCED to put their code up for review so others can pick it apart. Make the developer want to do it the best they can. at the risk of being publicly yelled at, I'll also say that in my experience, the quality of work of most CF Developers isn't deserving of a high salary. That's not to say that there aren't Java developers who write poor code, but Java pretty much forces you to use good coding techniques moreso than CF. CF makes it easy to write bad code. That's not a bad thing, unless people choose to take the easy route and write bad code (whch many do). There's no reason why a CF developer that's building complex enterprise applications shouldn't be earning as much as a java developer building complex enterprise applications, provided they're both competent. To be honest, most Java developers are more competent with specific parts of java rather than all of java - there are too many APIs and core classes to master all of them. An expert CF Developer is really worth more than an expert java developer in my opinion because they have complete mastery of their environment as opposed to mastery of part and competence in the rest. Just an observation I've had (and I've worked with A LOT of Java developers). ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: If the CF developer does all thing (database design, application design, coding, testing, etc), how much is he/she going to be paid in, let's say, downtown NY? Are we understood that 50K in downtown NY is for CF developers who are doing only coding??? Daniel On 4/29/05, Simon Horwith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: they don't always get paid less but more often than not, they do. This is probably because the majority of the tasks performed by CF Developers are the kinds of things that don't require you to be a competent architect, programmer, or even tester. ~Simon Simon Horwith CIO, AboutWeb - http://www.aboutweb.com Editor-in-Chief, ColdFusion Developers Journal Member of Team Macromedia Macromedia Certified Master Instructor Blog - http://www.horwith.com Daniel Kang wrote: The fundamental question is why CF developers get paid less than others?? Perhaps, I need to switch to the Java arena! Daniel On 4/29/05, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if I wanted to pay $60-70k I could easily hire a very senior developers (which seem to be easier to find too!). A mid level J2EE developer makes 100K+ easy in SF where the cost of living is less than in NY... where do you think all the CF developers went? I am a senior developer and I find 60K rather insulting - Fast food restaurant managers make more than that. If you can get a senior developer for 60K I'd say grab him/her. (PS not to start an up roar - look at the cost of living in your area before you start demanding higher salary) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http
