Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
Hey Everyone This is not a job posting- just a frustrated question. A year ago my company could post a CF job ad and get tens of responses. Now we post one and get 2 or 3 bad resumes. Now I realize that myspace has snatched up a lot of the CF'ers in Los Angeles, but could they really have gotten them all? We have tried this board, Craigslist, monster, dice - you name it - its just slim pickins. We pay competitively and have a growing company and compelling product. Any tips? Help appreciated! Ben Shichman ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3196 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
I'll echo many of the other responses...why is being local important? - Daily face to face interaction with clients in an agile development environment. No one can argue that away and everyone of my clients pays for that premium. I found that more projects in the million $ plus arena require in-person developers than don't. Also I used to work with secure government systems that may not be accessed in remote facilities that aren't secured by US law. And by secured, I mean armed guards 24/7. In Washington, DC it's getting harder to find office buildings without an armed guards and often metal detectors. Telecommuter's stolen laptop with thousands of SSNs recovered: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/29/AR2006062900352.html Los Angeles never developed a programming industry like DC, SF, etc. But to say that it's a matter of housing economics is silly given that DC and San Francisco are close to or surpass LA in terms of housing costs and have the largest programming communities and groups of IT contracts in the country. When houses in my childhood neighborhood topped the $2 million mark I was surprised, but it's supply and demand, some neighborhoods are in-demand and people will pay a premium to live there. Don ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3215 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
I have one available... and Jim has a Secret Clearence as well... however he's in the Washington, D.C. area. There's got to be some out there on the "left" coast ;-) Maybe the wording is throwing some of them off; just a thought... Happy Holdays -Robert Foster Dir., Business Development Symbionics, Inc. The Large Scale Data Integration Experts 4100 Lafayette Center Drive Suite 105 Chantilly, VA 20151 P. 571.234.4600 F. 571.234.4606 From: Ben Shichman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 12/19/2006 5:51 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? Hey Everyone This is not a job posting- just a frustrated question. A year ago my company could post a CF job ad and get tens of responses. Now we post one and get 2 or 3 bad resumes. Now I realize that myspace has snatched up a lot of the CF'ers in Los Angeles, but could they really have gotten them all? We have tried this board, Craigslist, monster, dice - you name it - its just slim pickins. We pay competitively and have a growing company and compelling product. Any tips? Help appreciated! Ben Shichman ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3197 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
I suspect that CF jobs in LA, like most major cities does not pay well enough for developers to actually have any decent standard of living. Just my opinion, I could be wrong ;-) Warmest Regards, Phillip B. Holmes http://www.phillipholmes.com -Original Message- From: Ben Shichman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:51 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? Hey Everyone This is not a job posting- just a frustrated question. A year ago my company could post a CF job ad and get tens of responses. Now we post one and get 2 or 3 bad resumes. Now I realize that myspace has snatched up a lot of the CF'ers in Los Angeles, but could they really have gotten them all? We have tried this board, Craigslist, monster, dice - you name it - its just slim pickins. We pay competitively and have a growing company and compelling product. Any tips? Help appreciated! Ben Shichman ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3198 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
I agree with this. Also, many more developers are able to work remotely and live in 'less expensive' areas but still work for companies where the cost of living is higher. I have a contract with a Fortune 500 company based in Arkansas, my manager is in Pennsylvania, and I live and work from my home office in Texas. It's a regular 40 hour a week contract position, they just don't require to be on site. If they required me to be on site in Pennsylvania, there's no way I would take the contract. I own a 4,000 square foot house in the Dallas Fort Worth area for $200k but in Pennsylvania, that would cost a minimum of $600k (if I'm lucky). I suggest finding a way to hire EXPERIENCED remote employees. This will expand your base of potential talent, and if you get someone experienced, you have a better chance of not hiring someone who 'abuses' the opportunity to work remotely, but instead, is actually more productive because they're not always dealing with 'working in the office' issues such as jacking around with the other developers and not working very hard. Yes, there is risk with hiring remote employees, but it can work if you find the right person. Maybe you can even offer to have them come work on site for one month on a 'temporary' basis, and if you like them (and their work ethic) and they like you, then go perm after a month and go back to work from home. Even people with families can spring for a month on the road if they know it could turn into a long term perm position where they can work from home. The technology is readily available for app develepors to work remotely successfully, more companies need to just start doing it. That's my 3 cents... ;) Dave -Original Message- From: Phillip B. Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:43 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? I suspect that CF jobs in LA, like most major cities does not pay well enough for developers to actually have any decent standard of living. Just my opinion, I could be wrong ;-) Warmest Regards, Phillip B. Holmes http://www.phillipholmes.com -Original Message- From: Ben Shichman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:51 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? Hey Everyone This is not a job posting- just a frustrated question. A year ago my company could post a CF job ad and get tens of responses. Now we post one and get 2 or 3 bad resumes. Now I realize that myspace has snatched up a lot of the CF'ers in Los Angeles, but could they really have gotten them all? We have tried this board, Craigslist, monster, dice - you name it - its just slim pickins. We pay competitively and have a growing company and compelling product. Any tips? Help appreciated! Ben Shichman ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3199 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
Ben, I have to agree with the other replies. I live in Tampa Florida in a beautiful home that I couldn't dream of owning in LA or NYC. I moved down here from NYC for that very reason. Also, I think people just aren't as willing to move themselves and their families for a job; especially with two income families. I currently have a local contract, but I have telecommuted in the past both locally and nationally, and will again. It's the wave of the future (if not the present) in the programming world. Why not use telecommuters, when we email or IM each other from two cubicles away when we are in the same office; what's the difference. Kathryn - Original Message From: Ben Shichman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: CF-Jobs-Talk Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 5:51:02 PM Subject: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? Hey Everyone This is not a job posting- just a frustrated question. A year ago my company could post a CF job ad and get tens of responses. Now we post one and get 2 or 3 bad resumes. Now I realize that myspace has snatched up a lot of the CF'ers in Los Angeles, but could they really have gotten them all? We have tried this board, Craigslist, monster, dice - you name it - its just slim pickins. We pay competitively and have a growing company and compelling product. Any tips? Help appreciated! Ben Shichman ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3200 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
Hello Ben, Not sure if my boss subscribed to this list or not, hope he isn't, but, personally, I will work for my current company as long as I'm paid. It was quite difficult to find a CF job a few years ago, so (as I think) a lot of people value the fact that they are employed. Wednesday, December 20, 2006, 12:51:02 AM, you wrote: > Hey Everyone > This is not a job posting- just a frustrated question. > A year ago my company could post a CF job ad and get tens of > responses. Now we post one and get 2 or 3 bad resumes. > Now I realize that myspace has snatched up a lot of the CF'ers in > Los Angeles, but could they really have gotten them all? We have > tried this board, Craigslist, monster, dice - you name it - its just slim > pickins. > We pay competitively and have a growing company and compelling product. > Any tips? > Help appreciated! > Ben Shichman > ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3201 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
I'll second this suggestion. Setting up a VPN is a snap, as well as a code repository available from remote locations. By expanding your search to other areas vastly increases your chances of getting a top-notch employee. If you're looking for a code monkey (someone who you just need for coding software and possibly IT support) this is the way to go as it saves you overhead and you get a more motivated workforce. There is greater risk as you may need to go through a few people to find someone who has the right work ethic to work from home, but the greater the risk, the greater the reward. As for finding good CF people, my experience over the past 5 years is that a large portion of them have moved to the Java realm as that job market is booming and CF market is either stagnant or only growing slightly (except in a few areas). Good luck, Ben. Steve Brownlee http://www.fusioncube.net/ > -Original Message- > From: Kathryn Butterly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:00 AM > To: CF-Jobs-Talk > Subject: Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? > > Ben, > > I have to agree with the other replies. I live in Tampa > Florida in a beautiful home that I couldn't dream of owning > in LA or NYC. I moved down here from NYC for that very > reason. Also, I think people just aren't as willing to move > themselves and their families for a job; especially with two > income families. > > I currently have a local contract, but I have telecommuted in > the past both locally and nationally, and will again. It's > the wave of the future (if not the present) in the > programming world. Why not use telecommuters, when we email > or IM each other from two cubicles away when we are in the > same office; what's the difference. > > Kathryn > ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3202 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
I'll echo many of the other responses...why is being local important? I do contract work for a small company about 15 miles from where I live and I only go into the office every couple of weeks. VPN, remote desktop to manage servers, and a local development environment set up on my workstation really means that there's nothing I can do there (at the office) that I can't do here (at home). With IM, email, and Vonage, keeping in touch with someone anywhere in the world is really not a big deal. Apps like Groove make managing geographically disparate groups simpler and keeps communication and sharing flowing like water. Probably the only thing I miss about being in an office is free pizza on Fridays (of course, I'm also the only geek at this place, so there's nobody to bounce tech stuff off of). I'm better equipped at home and am more comfortable, and my kids like being able to come home after school rather than going to aftercare. There are just way too many pluses. Pete ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3203 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
I ran the So Cal CF User Group until it disbanded in the summer of '05. My impression was that many CF developers in the LA area moved into other technologies - .NET, Java, php, etc. CF jobs were relatively scarce and still are. Just MHO... -- Leon Chalnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] P.O. Box 4105 www.AdvantaSolutions.com Palos Verdes Peninsula, CA 90274 310-377-0300 -Original Message- From: Alex Puritche [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:23 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? Hello Ben, Not sure if my boss subscribed to this list or not, hope he isn't, but, personally, I will work for my current company as long as I'm paid. It was quite difficult to find a CF job a few years ago, so (as I think) a lot of people value the fact that they are employed. Wednesday, December 20, 2006, 12:51:02 AM, you wrote: > Hey Everyone > This is not a job posting- just a frustrated question. > A year ago my company could post a CF job ad and get tens of > responses. Now we post one and get 2 or 3 bad resumes. > Now I realize that myspace has snatched up a lot of the CF'ers in > Los Angeles, but could they really have gotten them all? We have > tried this board, Craigslist, monster, dice - you name it - its just slim pickins. > We pay competitively and have a growing company and compelling product. > Any tips? > Help appreciated! > Ben Shichman > ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3204 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
"I own a 4,000 square foot house in the Dallas Fort Worth area for $200k" And in Los Angeles.. that would be over $1 million. -Original Message- From: Dave Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:23 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? I agree with this. Also, many more developers are able to work remotely and live in 'less expensive' areas but still work for companies where the cost of living is higher. I have a contract with a Fortune 500 company based in Arkansas, my manager is in Pennsylvania, and I live and work from my home office in Texas. It's a regular 40 hour a week contract position, they just don't require to be on site. If they required me to be on site in Pennsylvania, there's no way I would take the contract. I own a 4,000 square foot house in the Dallas Fort Worth area for $200k but in Pennsylvania, that would cost a minimum of $600k (if I'm lucky). I suggest finding a way to hire EXPERIENCED remote employees. This will expand your base of potential talent, and if you get someone experienced, you have a better chance of not hiring someone who 'abuses' the opportunity to work remotely, but instead, is actually more productive because they're not always dealing with 'working in the office' issues such as jacking around with the other developers and not working very hard. Yes, there is risk with hiring remote employees, but it can work if you find the right person. Maybe you can even offer to have them come work on site for one month on a 'temporary' basis, and if you like them (and their work ethic) and they like you, then go perm after a month and go back to work from home. Even people with families can spring for a month on the road if they know it could turn into a long term perm position where they can work from home. The technology is readily available for app develepors to work remotely successfully, more companies need to just start doing it. That's my 3 cents... ;) Dave -Original Message- From: Phillip B. Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:43 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? I suspect that CF jobs in LA, like most major cities does not pay well enough for developers to actually have any decent standard of living. Just my opinion, I could be wrong ;-) Warmest Regards, Phillip B. Holmes http://www.phillipholmes.com -Original Message- From: Ben Shichman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:51 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? Hey Everyone This is not a job posting- just a frustrated question. A year ago my company could post a CF job ad and get tens of responses. Now we post one and get 2 or 3 bad resumes. Now I realize that myspace has snatched up a lot of the CF'ers in Los Angeles, but could they really have gotten them all? We have tried this board, Craigslist, monster, dice - you name it - its just slim pickins. We pay competitively and have a growing company and compelling product. Any tips? Help appreciated! Ben Shichman ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3205 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
I was recently hired by a So. Cal. company, but I live in Colorado and am soon moving to Kentucky. The company looked locally, worked with remote contractors for 6 months, and then hired 2 of them as full-time remote team members. There does seem to be a trend to having part of your team remote. Doing it full time will be a new venture for the company and for me. > I agree with this. Also, many more developers are able to work remotely and > live in 'less expensive' areas but still work for companies where the cost > of living is higher. I have a contract with a Fortune 500 company based in > Arkansas, my manager is in Pennsylvania, and I live and work from my home > office in Texas. It's a regular 40 hour a week contract position, they just > don't require to be on site. If they required me to be on site in > Pennsylvania, there's no way I would take the contract. I own a 4,000 square > foot house in the Dallas Fort Worth area for $200k but in Pennsylvania, that > would cost a minimum of $600k (if I'm lucky). -- Matt Williams "It's the question that drives us." ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3206 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
If anyone knows any strong CF talent in the Chicago area, you can contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm searching for a Sr. Web Developer full-time. Thank you, Bill -Original Message- From: Matt Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:22 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? I was recently hired by a So. Cal. company, but I live in Colorado and am soon moving to Kentucky. The company looked locally, worked with remote contractors for 6 months, and then hired 2 of them as full-time remote team members. There does seem to be a trend to having part of your team remote. Doing it full time will be a new venture for the company and for me. > I agree with this. Also, many more developers are able to work > remotely and live in 'less expensive' areas but still work for > companies where the cost of living is higher. I have a contract with > a Fortune 500 company based in Arkansas, my manager is in > Pennsylvania, and I live and work from my home office in Texas. It's > a regular 40 hour a week contract position, they just don't require to > be on site. If they required me to be on site in Pennsylvania, > there's no way I would take the contract. I own a 4,000 square foot > house in the Dallas Fort Worth area for $200k but in Pennsylvania, > that would cost a minimum of $600k (if I'm lucky). -- Matt Williams "It's the question that drives us." ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3207 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
Considering the trend of this thread, how about a telecommuter in Philly? Heck, I'm even a certified teacher and have used Destiny with my students. On 12/20/06, McCabe, Bill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If anyone knows any strong CF talent in the Chicago area, you can > contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm searching for a Sr. Web > Developer full-time. > > Thank you, > > Bill > > -Original Message- > From: Matt Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:22 AM > To: CF-Jobs-Talk > Subject: Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? > > > I was recently hired by a So. Cal. company, but I live in Colorado and > am soon moving to Kentucky. The company looked locally, worked with > remote contractors for 6 months, and then hired 2 of them as full-time > remote team members. There does seem to be a trend to having part of > your team remote. Doing it full time will be a new venture for the > company and for me. > > > > > I agree with this. Also, many more developers are able to work > > remotely and live in 'less expensive' areas but still work for > > companies where the cost of living is higher. I have a contract with > > a Fortune 500 company based in Arkansas, my manager is in > > Pennsylvania, and I live and work from my home office in Texas. It's > > a regular 40 hour a week contract position, they just don't require to > > > be on site. If they required me to be on site in Pennsylvania, > > there's no way I would take the contract. I own a 4,000 square foot > > house in the Dallas Fort Worth area for $200k but in Pennsylvania, > > that would cost a minimum of $600k (if I'm lucky). > -- > Matt Williams > "It's the question that drives us." > > > > ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3208 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
Companies want local people because their management can't get it through their heads that working remotely can be productive. These companies have to be able to "keep tabs" on what their people are doing. They don't believe in giving people the freedom to do what needs to be done, "as long as the work gets done on time." I recently worked remotely for a company in San Diego while I was in Montana. I was there for seven months, the pay rate was extremely low (but there is NO CF work in Montana -- and how I ended up there is another story entirely), and then after seven months they inform me that they're cutting their remote developers to outsource them to CHINA because for what (little) they were paying me, they could have a TEAM of people. Talk about cutthroat. It nearly left my wife and I stranded up there; we pulled out all the stops, spent every last dime we had, and moved back to Reno (where my wife's family is) because at least there is work here, though not necessarily CF work. Since then I've picked up one remote gig out of the east coast that is part-time, and a local one working with a design firm that needed a programmer. It's still not as much work as I'd like, but at least it's work. CF work is definitely scarce. I want to get into Java and some other technologies, but haven't really figured out how to make the move yet. Rob ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3209 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
Well, that's not always true. There's a couple major reasons that some companies frown on telecommuting: 1) From HR's perspective, believe me, if you do it for one person, you have to let EVERYONE telecommute at least a portion of the time. This is of course an enormous headache and too many people have ruined it by not legitimiately working from home. Once the floodgates open, productivity plummets. If you can get away with some doing it and others not (without complaining to mgt or HR) then go for it. 2) Like I told Pete, what seems like a position that lends itself well to telecommmuting (Web Development), in certain environments like ours, it is far too collaborative. Our position would have this person meeting cross functionally w/ Marketing and too many other groups so having that person here on site lends far more value. While people assume companies want to restrict telecommuting simply to "keep tabs" or be difficult is not really fair. There are sound business reasons for requiring on-site work, at least for full-timers. -Original Message- From: RobG [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:40 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? Companies want local people because their management can't get it through their heads that working remotely can be productive. These companies have to be able to "keep tabs" on what their people are doing. They don't believe in giving people the freedom to do what needs to be done, "as long as the work gets done on time." I recently worked remotely for a company in San Diego while I was in Montana. I was there for seven months, the pay rate was extremely low (but there is NO CF work in Montana -- and how I ended up there is another story entirely), and then after seven months they inform me that they're cutting their remote developers to outsource them to CHINA because for what (little) they were paying me, they could have a TEAM of people. Talk about cutthroat. It nearly left my wife and I stranded up there; we pulled out all the stops, spent every last dime we had, and moved back to Reno (where my wife's family is) because at least there is work here, though not necessarily CF work. Since then I've picked up one remote gig out of the east coast that is part-time, and a local one working with a design firm that needed a programmer. It's still not as much work as I'd like, but at least it's work. CF work is definitely scarce. I want to get into Java and some other technologies, but haven't really figured out how to make the move yet. Rob ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3210 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
Bill, Your point #1 is one well made, however, I think that some positions could be designated as "telecommutable" and not have issues with EEOC or any other regulatory agency. Then the whiners can just be told "no" and the HR dept doesn't have to worry about repercussions. Heck, if they get ticked off and leave, then the company will probably be better off without them anyway. Who wants a whiner working for them anyway? As for point 2, I would make the argument that any kind of collaboration that is needed on any application development project can be done remotely. You do not need to be 'face to face' with anyone (regardless of who is involved with the project) and even if you do, just use video conferencing, webcams, etc. The internet lends itself to collaboration and if a company is willing to spend the money on the collaborative tools, then a higher productivity will result because when you are getting together 'in person' for meetings, there is a lot of unproductive stuff that ends up happening anyway. I would argue here that the issue is CHANGEmeetings of 10 people on a design project could be a thing of the past if the right tools are used. I can't tell you how many meetings were wasted, and how much time was wasted when I was in an on-site team. I am a hundred times more productive working remotely and I can meet with anyone by e-mail, IM, phone, chat, web cam conference, or even web presentations and whiteboarding if necessary. All the tools are out there, it is simply an issue of a paradigm shift for hiring managers (and their managers, and their managers, all the way up the pole). I think this is the point Rob was trying to make, not so much that they don't 'trust' their remote employees, but that they just gotta get it through their heads that things are different. Consider when the first computer was used in the office place. Can you imagine the resistance to 'trusting' all of our documents to something electronic? Now, we hardly print anything now adays (unless you are in an industry that still doesn't trust computers, like the legal industry!) :) Dave -Original Message- From: McCabe, Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:32 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? Well, that's not always true. There's a couple major reasons that some companies frown on telecommuting: 1) From HR's perspective, believe me, if you do it for one person, you have to let EVERYONE telecommute at least a portion of the time. This is of course an enormous headache and too many people have ruined it by not legitimiately working from home. Once the floodgates open, productivity plummets. If you can get away with some doing it and others not (without complaining to mgt or HR) then go for it. 2) Like I told Pete, what seems like a position that lends itself well to telecommmuting (Web Development), in certain environments like ours, it is far too collaborative. Our position would have this person meeting cross functionally w/ Marketing and too many other groups so having that person here on site lends far more value. While people assume companies want to restrict telecommuting simply to "keep tabs" or be difficult is not really fair. There are sound business reasons for requiring on-site work, at least for full-timers. -Original Message- From: RobG [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:40 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? Companies want local people because their management can't get it through their heads that working remotely can be productive. These companies have to be able to "keep tabs" on what their people are doing. They don't believe in giving people the freedom to do what needs to be done, "as long as the work gets done on time." I recently worked remotely for a company in San Diego while I was in Montana. I was there for seven months, the pay rate was extremely low (but there is NO CF work in Montana -- and how I ended up there is another story entirely), and then after seven months they inform me that they're cutting their remote developers to outsource them to CHINA because for what (little) they were paying me, they could have a TEAM of people. Talk about cutthroat. It nearly left my wife and I stranded up there; we pulled out all the stops, spent every last dime we had, and moved back to Reno (where my wife's family is) because at least there is work here, though not necessarily CF work. Since then I've picked up one remote gig out of the east coast that is part-time, and a local one working with a design firm that needed a programmer. It's still not as much work as I'd like, but at least
Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
And here in San Francisco is would be worth 20 million. On 12/20/06, Jacob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "I own a 4,000 square foot house in the Dallas Fort Worth area for $200k" > > And in Los Angeles.. that would be over $1 million. > > -Original Message- > From: Dave Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 10:23 PM > To: CF-Jobs-Talk > Subject: RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? > > I agree with this. Also, many more developers are able to work remotely and > live in 'less expensive' areas but still work for companies where the cost > of living is higher. I have a contract with a Fortune 500 company based in > Arkansas, my manager is in Pennsylvania, and I live and work from my home > office in Texas. It's a regular 40 hour a week contract position, they just > don't require to be on site. If they required me to be on site in > Pennsylvania, there's no way I would take the contract. I own a 4,000 square > foot house in the Dallas Fort Worth area for $200k but in Pennsylvania, that > would cost a minimum of $600k (if I'm lucky). > > I suggest finding a way to hire EXPERIENCED remote employees. This will > expand your base of potential talent, and if you get someone experienced, > you have a better chance of not hiring someone who 'abuses' the opportunity > to work remotely, but instead, is actually more productive because they're > not always dealing with 'working in the office' issues such as jacking > around with the other developers and not working very hard. > > Yes, there is risk with hiring remote employees, but it can work if you find > the right person. Maybe you can even offer to have them come work on site > for one month on a 'temporary' basis, and if you like them (and their work > ethic) and they like you, then go perm after a month and go back to work > from home. Even people with families can spring for a month on the road if > they know it could turn into a long term perm position where they can work > from home. > > The technology is readily available for app develepors to work remotely > successfully, more companies need to just start doing it. > > That's my 3 cents... ;) > > Dave > > -Original Message- > From: Phillip B. Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 8:43 PM > To: CF-Jobs-Talk > Subject: RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? > > > I suspect that CF jobs in LA, like most major cities does not pay well > enough for developers to actually have any decent standard of living. > > Just my opinion, I could be wrong ;-) > > Warmest Regards, > > Phillip B. Holmes > http://www.phillipholmes.com > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Ben Shichman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:51 PM > To: CF-Jobs-Talk > Subject: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? > > Hey Everyone > > This is not a job posting- just a frustrated question. > > A year ago my company could post a CF job ad and get tens of responses. Now > we post one and get 2 or 3 bad resumes. > > Now I realize that myspace has snatched up a lot of the CF'ers in Los > Angeles, but could they really have gotten them all? We have tried this > board, Craigslist, monster, dice - you name it - its just slim pickins. > > We pay competitively and have a growing company and compelling product. > > Any tips? > > Help appreciated! > > Ben Shichman > > > > > > > > ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3212 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
Too bad I can't move it there! -Original Message- From: Maureen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:26 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? And here in San Francisco is would be worth 20 million. On 12/20/06, Jacob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "I own a 4,000 square foot house in the Dallas Fort Worth area for > $200k" > > And in Los Angeles.. that would be over $1 million. > ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3213 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
Bill, Your point #1 is one well made, however, I think that some positions could be designated as "telecommutable" and not have issues with EEOC or any other regulatory agency. Then the whiners can just be told "no" and the HR dept doesn't have to worry about repercussions. Heck, if they get ticked off and leave, then the company will probably be better off without them anyway. Who wants a whiner working for them anyway? As for point 2, I would make the argument that any kind of collaboration that is needed on any application development project can be done remotely. You do not need to be 'face to face' with anyone (regardless of who is involved with the project) and even if you do, just use video conferencing, webcams, etc. The internet lends itself to collaboration and if a company is willing to spend the money on the collaborative tools, then a higher productivity will result because when you are getting together 'in person' for meetings, there is a lot of unproductive stuff that ends up happening anyway. I would argue here that the issue is CHANGEmeetings of 10 people on a design project could be a thing of the past if the right tools are used. I can't tell you how many meetings were wasted, and how much time was wasted when I was in an on-site team. I am a hundred times more productive working remotely and I can meet with anyone by e-mail, IM, phone, chat, web cam conference, or even web presentations and whiteboarding if necessary. All the tools are out there, it is simply an issue of a paradigm shift for hiring managers (and their managers, and their managers, all the way up the pole). I think this is the point Rob was trying to make, not so much that they don't 'trust' their remote employees, but that they just gotta get it through their heads that things are different. Consider when the first computer was used in the office place. Can you imagine the resistance to 'trusting' all of our documents to something electronic? Now, we hardly print anything now adays (unless you are in an industry that still doesn't trust computers, like the legal industry!) :) Dave -Original Message- From: McCabe, Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:32 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? Well, that's not always true. There's a couple major reasons that some companies frown on telecommuting: 1) From HR's perspective, believe me, if you do it for one person, you have to let EVERYONE telecommute at least a portion of the time. This is of course an enormous headache and too many people have ruined it by not legitimiately working from home. Once the floodgates open, productivity plummets. If you can get away with some doing it and others not (without complaining to mgt or HR) then go for it. 2) Like I told Pete, what seems like a position that lends itself well to telecommmuting (Web Development), in certain environments like ours, it is far too collaborative. Our position would have this person meeting cross functionally w/ Marketing and too many other groups so having that person here on site lends far more value. While people assume companies want to restrict telecommuting simply to "keep tabs" or be difficult is not really fair. There are sound business reasons for requiring on-site work, at least for full-timers. ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3214 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
RE: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
If you were considering spending a quarter of a million dollars to have some contractors build you a house that you planned to live in for 10 years, would you prefer someone who was local or someone from out of state? Okay, it's not a perfect analogy, but there's some truth in it. Moreover, it as absolutely NOT THE SAME thing to have a team of developers working together under one roof where they can easily and instantly get together, ask quick questions, pow-wow over a drawing on board, develop commraderie and so on when you compare it to trying to do the same thing with a team that's geographically dispersed and across multiple time zones. Sorry, but it is NOT the same. That isn't to say that you can't get the job with remote staff. But IMHO, you can't get the same kind of relationship and timely communication that is often key to getting something done and time and within budget. One last point. Trust is not something that I'm accustomed to just dishing out an endless supply of to whomever asks for it. Not when it comes to me putting my company, dollars and *my* reputation on the line. It's something that someone must earn. In *some* cases, that require me getting to know them and see how they work before they get my trust. I'm not speaking out from a theoretical standpoint, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who has had a very negative experience trusting a remote developer based on his rep. All it took was one. I don't believe that all projects require local developers...but some do. --Leon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 7:41 AM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Where are the Los Angeles Developers? I'll echo many of the other responses...why is being local important? - Daily face to face interaction with clients in an agile development environment. No one can argue that away and everyone of my clients pays for that premium. I found that more projects in the million $ plus arena require in-person developers than don't. Also I used to work with secure government systems that may not be accessed in remote facilities that aren't secured by US law. And by secured, I mean armed guards 24/7. In Washington, DC it's getting harder to find office buildings without an armed guards and often metal detectors. Telecommuter's stolen laptop with thousands of SSNs recovered: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/29/AR2006062900 352.html Los Angeles never developed a programming industry like DC, SF, etc. But to say that it's a matter of housing economics is silly given that DC and San Francisco are close to or surpass LA in terms of housing costs and have the largest programming communities and groups of IT contracts in the country. When houses in my childhood neighborhood topped the $2 million mark I was surprised, but it's supply and demand, some neighborhoods are in-demand and people will pay a premium to live there. Don ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3216 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
Re: Where are the Los Angeles Developers?
Wow! Lots of responses. Thanks everyone. To address a few points: 1) We're a software company delivering an ASP oriented product, so remote developers is a challenge, as it is a HIGHLY collaborative atmostphere with meetings and whiteboards 3 times a week. We would most certainly consider telecommuters if we could - its not a trust issue, its just not practical to have remote devs. 2) We pay very competitively - we've even gotten devs through recruiters and they demand competitive salaries. We do not over pay - but we most certainly do not underpay. 3) I think LA is a desolate non-techy place coupled with the fact CF is a small language in the big scheme. My guess is if we were Java or .Net, this wouldnt be an issue. 4) LA yes is an expensive place to live, but in many areas cheaper than DC and most certainly cheaper than SF or NYC. I used to live in NYC and DC and can vouch for this. LA can be $2500 for a 1 BR or $1000 depending on your neighborhood - and none of those choices are "the 'hood". And living near the beach in this sunny weather is like getting a raise anyway. Thanks again to everyone and wish me a collective good luck And of course, if anyone wants to move to LA, we do offer a relocation package :) Anyway - thanks to everyone for your thoughts... Our search continues! ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade & integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;56760587;14748456;a?http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=LVNU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:3217 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Jobs-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11
