RE: CSS and Firefox

[Rick Faircloth]

Thanks for the feedback, Cutter...

Rick



-Original Message-
From: Cutter (CF-Talk) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:30 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CSS and Firefox


Inconsistencies between browsers (IE, Firefox, etc.) does present minor
issues on occasion, not just in basic terms (like slight differences to
the DOM style references), but also in broader issues (like how each
browser is affected by the use of a particular DTD). When IE7 is finally
released hopefully some of this will be relieved (if they can convince
everyone to upgrade [yeah, right...]).

All of that being said though, it's worth the tradeoff. I've been slowly
implementing styles in my work for the last few years. I've even totally
rewritten 3rd party code to make it HTML 4/XHTML compliant with styles
(and later stylesheets) so that they were easier to change/maintain.
It's nice to change one line of CSS to change the appearance of an item
across an entire site (like changing the font-type, or the font-size, or
the background color). Sure, sometimes there are issues (especially with
the box model), but generally a little time of tweaking/testing will
work it out, with an occasional trip to Google or the W3CSchool.

I generally start with a layout that works with Firefox (my browser of
choice) and then look at it within IE to see what needs to be
changed/adjusted. I pre-plan my layout prior to coding, which helps me
develop with an eye for encapsulating pods of content and pre-defining
default and block level styles. Since the view layer is usually the last
area of code I work on it typically doesn't take much of my time. Since
code/dev is only about 10% of my current work week then that is time
well spent (I can't wait to get back to core dev. Now, where was that
resume?...)

Minor things will drive you nuts, but typically only you will notice.
It's worth the initial effort.

Cutter

Rick Faircloth wrote:

>Thanks for the reply, Cutter...
>
>It does seem an elegant and efficient way to design,
>but I've been following discussions on the css-discuss
>mailing list, and they sure spend a lot of time figuring out
>design issues.
>
>I'm just wondering if I'll be spending too much time trying
>to make CSS design behave and not enough time coding CF.
>
>I guess there's probably a common set of functional design
>patterns that work well with all (mostly all) browsers and I
>could learn what to stay away from...
>
>What's been the key for making CSS work well for you
>in dealing with incompatabilities between browsers?  Or does
>it just seem that there are a lot of issues because the problems
>are usually the only hot topics that are discussed on lists...
>
>Rick
>
>
>-Original Message-----
>From: Cutter (CF-Talk) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:33 PM
>To: CF-Talk
>Subject: Re: CSS and Firefox
>
>
>Rick,
>
>Yes, I'm using CSS for all of my design (only using tables for tabular
>data). Irie Radio is my first foray into Mach II, and every page
>contains some dynamic data (much more to come). I've really had to
>rethink some things structurally to leverage CF with a total CSS layout,
>but in the end run I'm finding it to be much more flexible from a design
>standpoint, especially as I modularize my code. Much easier to change
>and maintain.
>
>Cutter
>
>
>
>Rick Faircloth wrote:
>
>
>
>>Hi, Cutter...
>>
>>Are you using CSS as your primary design approach or tables?
>>I say primary, because I'm sure you use both, but what do you
>>use to do your basic page layout?
>>
>>And if you use CSS, how has it worked with dynamic pages and CF?
>>
>>Rick
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Cutter (CF-Talk) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:08 AM
>>To: CF-Talk
>>Subject: Re: CSS and Firefox
>>
>>
>>! Thanks Damien. I had tried adjusting the internal content
>>block sizes and forgot about my primaryContent container.
>>
>>The WebDeveloper Toolbar extension for Firefox is great for this as
>>well. It's got an option in the Outline menu to Outline Block Level
>>Elements, so I don't have to adjust my stylesheet to see all of these
>>elements. Overall it's not perfect, but it has been a great tool.
>>
>>Thanks again Damien (and all those others who posted). Dropping that
>>width just 5px (460px) was all it needed.
>>
>>Cutter
>>
>>Damien McKenna wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Its simply a case of your content being too wide.  I made the following
>>>change and it worked fine:
>>>
>&

Re: CSS and Firefox

[Cutter (CF-Talk)]

Inconsistencies between browsers (IE, Firefox, etc.) does present minor 
issues on occasion, not just in basic terms (like slight differences to 
the DOM style references), but also in broader issues (like how each 
browser is affected by the use of a particular DTD). When IE7 is finally 
released hopefully some of this will be relieved (if they can convince 
everyone to upgrade [yeah, right...]).

All of that being said though, it's worth the tradeoff. I've been slowly 
implementing styles in my work for the last few years. I've even totally 
rewritten 3rd party code to make it HTML 4/XHTML compliant with styles 
(and later stylesheets) so that they were easier to change/maintain. 
It's nice to change one line of CSS to change the appearance of an item 
across an entire site (like changing the font-type, or the font-size, or 
the background color). Sure, sometimes there are issues (especially with 
the box model), but generally a little time of tweaking/testing will 
work it out, with an occasional trip to Google or the W3CSchool.

I generally start with a layout that works with Firefox (my browser of 
choice) and then look at it within IE to see what needs to be 
changed/adjusted. I pre-plan my layout prior to coding, which helps me 
develop with an eye for encapsulating pods of content and pre-defining 
default and block level styles. Since the view layer is usually the last 
area of code I work on it typically doesn't take much of my time. Since 
code/dev is only about 10% of my current work week then that is time 
well spent (I can't wait to get back to core dev. Now, where was that 
resume?...)

Minor things will drive you nuts, but typically only you will notice. 
It's worth the initial effort.

Cutter

Rick Faircloth wrote:

>Thanks for the reply, Cutter...
>
>It does seem an elegant and efficient way to design,
>but I've been following discussions on the css-discuss
>mailing list, and they sure spend a lot of time figuring out
>design issues.
>
>I'm just wondering if I'll be spending too much time trying
>to make CSS design behave and not enough time coding CF.
>
>I guess there's probably a common set of functional design
>patterns that work well with all (mostly all) browsers and I
>could learn what to stay away from...
>
>What's been the key for making CSS work well for you
>in dealing with incompatabilities between browsers?  Or does
>it just seem that there are a lot of issues because the problems
>are usually the only hot topics that are discussed on lists...
>
>Rick
>
>
>-Original Message-----
>From: Cutter (CF-Talk) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:33 PM
>To: CF-Talk
>Subject: Re: CSS and Firefox
>
>
>Rick,
>
>Yes, I'm using CSS for all of my design (only using tables for tabular
>data). Irie Radio is my first foray into Mach II, and every page
>contains some dynamic data (much more to come). I've really had to
>rethink some things structurally to leverage CF with a total CSS layout,
>but in the end run I'm finding it to be much more flexible from a design
>standpoint, especially as I modularize my code. Much easier to change
>and maintain.
>
>Cutter
>
>
>
>Rick Faircloth wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi, Cutter...
>>
>>Are you using CSS as your primary design approach or tables?
>>I say primary, because I'm sure you use both, but what do you
>>use to do your basic page layout?
>>
>>And if you use CSS, how has it worked with dynamic pages and CF?
>>
>>Rick
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Cutter (CF-Talk) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:08 AM
>>To: CF-Talk
>>Subject: Re: CSS and Firefox
>>
>>
>>! Thanks Damien. I had tried adjusting the internal content
>>block sizes and forgot about my primaryContent container.
>>
>>The WebDeveloper Toolbar extension for Firefox is great for this as
>>well. It's got an option in the Outline menu to Outline Block Level
>>Elements, so I don't have to adjust my stylesheet to see all of these
>>elements. Overall it's not perfect, but it has been a great tool.
>>
>>Thanks again Damien (and all those others who posted). Dropping that
>>width just 5px (460px) was all it needed.
>>
>>Cutter
>>
>>Damien McKenna wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Its simply a case of your content being too wide.  I made the following
>>>change and it worked fine:
>>>
>>>#primaryContent {
>>> width:455px;
>>>}
>>>
>>>I suggest adding the following to your main DIVs to see where everything
>>

RE: CSS and Firefox

[Rick Faircloth]

Thanks for the reply, Cutter...

It does seem an elegant and efficient way to design,
but I've been following discussions on the css-discuss
mailing list, and they sure spend a lot of time figuring out
design issues.

I'm just wondering if I'll be spending too much time trying
to make CSS design behave and not enough time coding CF.

I guess there's probably a common set of functional design
patterns that work well with all (mostly all) browsers and I
could learn what to stay away from...

What's been the key for making CSS work well for you
in dealing with incompatabilities between browsers?  Or does
it just seem that there are a lot of issues because the problems
are usually the only hot topics that are discussed on lists...

Rick


-Original Message-
From: Cutter (CF-Talk) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:33 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CSS and Firefox


Rick,

Yes, I'm using CSS for all of my design (only using tables for tabular
data). Irie Radio is my first foray into Mach II, and every page
contains some dynamic data (much more to come). I've really had to
rethink some things structurally to leverage CF with a total CSS layout,
but in the end run I'm finding it to be much more flexible from a design
standpoint, especially as I modularize my code. Much easier to change
and maintain.

Cutter



Rick Faircloth wrote:

>Hi, Cutter...
>
>Are you using CSS as your primary design approach or tables?
>I say primary, because I'm sure you use both, but what do you
>use to do your basic page layout?
>
>And if you use CSS, how has it worked with dynamic pages and CF?
>
>Rick
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Cutter (CF-Talk) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:08 AM
>To: CF-Talk
>Subject: Re: CSS and Firefox
>
>
>! Thanks Damien. I had tried adjusting the internal content
>block sizes and forgot about my primaryContent container.
>
>The WebDeveloper Toolbar extension for Firefox is great for this as
>well. It's got an option in the Outline menu to Outline Block Level
>Elements, so I don't have to adjust my stylesheet to see all of these
>elements. Overall it's not perfect, but it has been a great tool.
>
>Thanks again Damien (and all those others who posted). Dropping that
>width just 5px (460px) was all it needed.
>
>Cutter
>
>Damien McKenna wrote:
>
>
>>Its simply a case of your content being too wide.  I made the following
>>change and it worked fine:
>>
>>#primaryContent {
>>  width:455px;
>>}
>>
>>I suggest adding the following to your main DIVs to see where everything
>>is *really* positioning:
>>
>>  border: 1px dashed red;
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>



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Re: CSS and Firefox

[Cutter (CF-Talk)]

Rick,

Yes, I'm using CSS for all of my design (only using tables for tabular 
data). Irie Radio is my first foray into Mach II, and every page 
contains some dynamic data (much more to come). I've really had to 
rethink some things structurally to leverage CF with a total CSS layout, 
but in the end run I'm finding it to be much more flexible from a design 
standpoint, especially as I modularize my code. Much easier to change 
and maintain.

Cutter



Rick Faircloth wrote:

>Hi, Cutter...
>
>Are you using CSS as your primary design approach or tables?
>I say primary, because I'm sure you use both, but what do you
>use to do your basic page layout?
>
>And if you use CSS, how has it worked with dynamic pages and CF?
>
>Rick
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Cutter (CF-Talk) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:08 AM
>To: CF-Talk
>Subject: Re: CSS and Firefox
>
>
>! Thanks Damien. I had tried adjusting the internal content
>block sizes and forgot about my primaryContent container.
>
>The WebDeveloper Toolbar extension for Firefox is great for this as
>well. It's got an option in the Outline menu to Outline Block Level
>Elements, so I don't have to adjust my stylesheet to see all of these
>elements. Overall it's not perfect, but it has been a great tool.
>
>Thanks again Damien (and all those others who posted). Dropping that
>width just 5px (460px) was all it needed.
>
>Cutter
>
>Damien McKenna wrote:
>  
>
>>Its simply a case of your content being too wide.  I made the following
>>change and it worked fine:
>>
>>#primaryContent {
>>  width:455px;
>>}
>>
>>I suggest adding the following to your main DIVs to see where everything
>>is *really* positioning:
>>
>>  border: 1px dashed red;
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

~|
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RE: CSS and Firefox

[Sandy Clark]

You are using the following doctype

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd";>

Take out the xml prolog ().  That
throws IE into quirks mode, which uses a broken box model (width = borders +
padding + content).  The box model that firefox uses (and IE in standards
mode) is (width = content)   

Sandy Clark
-Original Message-
From: Cutter (CF-Talk) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:26 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: OT: CSS and Firefox

OK, I'm working on making all new sites I work on XHTML/CSS compliant, one
step at a time. Not a heavy learning curve, but I am running into some small
odd things that I don't understand. For instance, on
http://i05.irieradio.com, on pages other than the home page and the blogs
page, my central content area has decided to displace itself to below the
left nav. This only occurs in Firefox, it displays fine in IE. 
This is a pretty common layout so I'm going nuts trying to figure out why it
would be doing this. Any suggestions?

Cutter



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RE: CSS and Firefox

[Rick Faircloth]

Hi, Cutter...

Are you using CSS as your primary design approach or tables?
I say primary, because I'm sure you use both, but what do you
use to do your basic page layout?

And if you use CSS, how has it worked with dynamic pages and CF?

Rick


-Original Message-
From: Cutter (CF-Talk) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:08 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: CSS and Firefox


! Thanks Damien. I had tried adjusting the internal content
block sizes and forgot about my primaryContent container.

The WebDeveloper Toolbar extension for Firefox is great for this as
well. It's got an option in the Outline menu to Outline Block Level
Elements, so I don't have to adjust my stylesheet to see all of these
elements. Overall it's not perfect, but it has been a great tool.

Thanks again Damien (and all those others who posted). Dropping that
width just 5px (460px) was all it needed.

Cutter

Damien McKenna wrote:
> Its simply a case of your content being too wide.  I made the following
> change and it worked fine:
>
> #primaryContent {
>   width:455px;
> }
>
> I suggest adding the following to your main DIVs to see where everything
> is *really* positioning:
>
>   border: 1px dashed red;
>



~|
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Re: CSS and Firefox

[Cutter (CF-Talk)]

! Thanks Damien. I had tried adjusting the internal content 
block sizes and forgot about my primaryContent container.

The WebDeveloper Toolbar extension for Firefox is great for this as 
well. It's got an option in the Outline menu to Outline Block Level 
Elements, so I don't have to adjust my stylesheet to see all of these 
elements. Overall it's not perfect, but it has been a great tool.

Thanks again Damien (and all those others who posted). Dropping that 
width just 5px (460px) was all it needed.

Cutter

Damien McKenna wrote:
> Its simply a case of your content being too wide.  I made the following
> change and it worked fine:
> 
> #primaryContent {
>   width:455px;
> }
> 
> I suggest adding the following to your main DIVs to see where everything
> is *really* positioning:
> 
>   border: 1px dashed red;
> 

~|
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Re: OT: CSS and Firefox

[Claude Schneegans]

 >> If you try it the other way around, you'll have a nightmare time 
trying to
force compliant browsers like Firefox to do what IE does. It's possible, 
but
it is a LOT harder.

On the contrary, I always use IE for developing:
1º For Mozilla, I use an IE emulator that makes almost all 
functionalities in IE transparently available,
so it is not necessary to test for the browser,
2º Documentation for Mozilla is inexistent, at most very poor,
3º Mozilla also has bugs that you must work around anyway.
4º Most of the non standard features in IE are also supported by Mozilla 
anyway, but not documented.

-- 
___
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See http://www.contentbox.com/claude/customtags/tagstore.cfm
(Please send any spam to this address: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
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Re: OT: CSS and Firefox

[Mike Kear]

As a general rule, I seriously suggest NOT using IE to develop with. I 
suggest using Firefox instead as your main browser. This is not any 
ideological, anti-Microsoft thing, it's a simple truth that Firefox is CSS 
compliant and IE isnt. (It's not the only CSS compliant browser, but it's 
the one I know, which is why I mention it.) Microsoft have acknowledged this 
too, and their next browser, IE7 will have a standards compliant mode, as I 
understand it.
 In case that's not too clear, let me put that another way - Firefox behaves 
how proper standards-compliant browsers should, and IE doesnt. 
 So ... what experienced CSS developers do, is use Firefox for development 
(and the toolbars available for developers make many aspects a lot easier 
too). Get the layout how you want it using Firefox, THEN tweak and hack to 
get it to behave the same in IE. 
 If you try it the other way around, you'll have a nightmare time trying to 
force compliant browsers like Firefox to do what IE does. It's possible, but 
it is a LOT harder.
 Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET  hosting from AUD$15/month 
 On 9/13/05, Cutter (CF-Talk) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> OK, I'm working on making all new sites I work on XHTML/CSS compliant,
> one step at a time. Not a heavy learning curve, but I am running into
> some small odd things that I don't understand. For instance, on
> http://i05.irieradio.com, on pages other than the home page and the
> blogs page, my central content area has decided to displace itself to
> below the left nav. This only occurs in Firefox, it displays fine in IE.
> This is a pretty common layout so I'm going nuts trying to figure out
> why it would be doing this. Any suggestions?
> 
> Cutter


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Re: CSS and Firefox

[John Paul Ashenfelter]

On 9/13/05, Damien McKenna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Its simply a case of your content being too wide.  I made the following
> change and it worked fine:
> 
> #primaryContent {
> width:455px;
> }
> 
> I suggest adding the following to your main DIVs to see where everything
> is *really* positioning:
> 
> border: 1px dashed red;
> 

Or use the Web Developers Toolbar (chrispederick.com) for FireFox to
do the same thing. As can GreaseMonkey and Aadrvark -- which are both
even more powerful.
-- 
John Paul Ashenfelter
CTO/Transitionpoint
(blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com
(email) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: CSS and Firefox

[Damien McKenna]

Its simply a case of your content being too wide.  I made the following
change and it worked fine:

#primaryContent {
width:455px;
}

I suggest adding the following to your main DIVs to see where everything
is *really* positioning:

border: 1px dashed red;

-- 
Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014
#include 


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Re: OT: CSS and Firefox

[Ryan Guill]

If the css isnt changing from one page to another, its probably
flowing too wide on those pages.  Try taking your content div a little
more narrow and see if that helps.

On 9/13/05, Cutter (CF-Talk) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OK, I'm working on making all new sites I work on XHTML/CSS compliant,
> one step at a time. Not a heavy learning curve, but I am running into
> some small odd things that I don't understand. For instance, on
> http://i05.irieradio.com, on pages other than the home page and the
> blogs page, my central content area has decided to displace itself to
> below the left nav. This only occurs in Firefox, it displays fine in IE.
> This is a pretty common layout so I'm going nuts trying to figure out
> why it would be doing this. Any suggestions?
> 
> Cutter
> 
> 

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OT: CSS and Firefox

[Cutter (CF-Talk)]

OK, I'm working on making all new sites I work on XHTML/CSS compliant, 
one step at a time. Not a heavy learning curve, but I am running into 
some small odd things that I don't understand. For instance, on 
http://i05.irieradio.com, on pages other than the home page and the 
blogs page, my central content area has decided to displace itself to 
below the left nav. This only occurs in Firefox, it displays fine in IE. 
This is a pretty common layout so I'm going nuts trying to figure out 
why it would be doing this. Any suggestions?

Cutter

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Re: OT: CSS and Firefox

[Marlon Moyer]

What's interesting is when I use the webdeveloper toolbar 'edit css'
option, the screen will redraw quickly and have the correct spacing on
the top.   It looks like FF is having trouble parsing that second
stylesheet.  You might want to try to get rid of everything but the
definition for that div narrow it down from there.



On 7/21/05, Cutter (CF-Talk) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can't get my head around this. Small but significant problem with
> external stylesheets. I've got this page (http://s05.seacrets.com) where
> the flash item in the middle of the page is supposed to be flush on the
> top of the div containing it (#primaryContent). This (oddly) is working
> great in IE 6.x, but isn't working within Firefox 1.0.5.
> 
> I have a global.css file loading first, setting initial style properties
> of all base elements of the site (header graphic, nav menu, etc.). I use
> another stylesheet to define styles for elements specific to the page
> being viewed. This file may also be used to override style settings set
> previously by the global stylesheet. In this case I'm overriding the
> padding property of the primaryContent Div (well, I am in IE anyway).
> 
> I just can't seem to get this secondary style sheet to take. I've run
> the W3C Validators on the page. CSS validates fine, the XHTML only bombs
> on the embed tag used for the flash element (anyone know how to get
> around that?). Anybody with any ideas I am open to suggestions.
> 
> Any and all help greatly appreciated,
> Cutter
> 
> 

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RE: CSS and Firefox

[Aldon]

Place the swf within a table inside the div.

Aldon

-Original Message-
From: Cutter (CF-Talk) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:19 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: OT: CSS and Firefox


I can't get my head around this. Small but significant problem with
external stylesheets. I've got this page (http://s05.seacrets.com) where
the flash item in the middle of the page is supposed to be flush on the
top of the div containing it (#primaryContent). This (oddly) is working
great in IE 6.x, but isn't working within Firefox 1.0.5.

I have a global.css file loading first, setting initial style properties
of all base elements of the site (header graphic, nav menu, etc.). I use
another stylesheet to define styles for elements specific to the page
being viewed. This file may also be used to override style settings set
previously by the global stylesheet. In this case I'm overriding the
padding property of the primaryContent Div (well, I am in IE anyway).

I just can't seem to get this secondary style sheet to take. I've run
the W3C Validators on the page. CSS validates fine, the XHTML only bombs
on the embed tag used for the flash element (anyone know how to get
around that?). Anybody with any ideas I am open to suggestions.

Any and all help greatly appreciated,
Cutter



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OT: CSS and Firefox

[Cutter (CF-Talk)]

I can't get my head around this. Small but significant problem with 
external stylesheets. I've got this page (http://s05.seacrets.com) where 
the flash item in the middle of the page is supposed to be flush on the 
top of the div containing it (#primaryContent). This (oddly) is working 
great in IE 6.x, but isn't working within Firefox 1.0.5.

I have a global.css file loading first, setting initial style properties 
of all base elements of the site (header graphic, nav menu, etc.). I use 
another stylesheet to define styles for elements specific to the page 
being viewed. This file may also be used to override style settings set 
previously by the global stylesheet. In this case I'm overriding the 
padding property of the primaryContent Div (well, I am in IE anyway).

I just can't seem to get this secondary style sheet to take. I've run 
the W3C Validators on the page. CSS validates fine, the XHTML only bombs 
on the embed tag used for the flash element (anyone know how to get 
around that?). Anybody with any ideas I am open to suggestions.

Any and all help greatly appreciated,
Cutter

~|
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application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a 
client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account.
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