Re: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
On Dec 23, 2007 11:13 PM, Brad Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll admit, it's nice how well CF simplifies the messy stuff, but messing with the mutli-server install has a way of dumping you waist-deep with the unfamiliar (and previously hidden) world of Java. True. I prefer the multiserver install because I have a Java background and I like the extra level of control and flexibility. The JRE (or SDK) runs on the OS. This is what defines what version of Java you are on. Would it best be described as a compiler, interpreter, a VM, or?? The VM is the Virtual Machine that interprets the Java bytecode and (on some JVMs like Sun's HotSpot system) compiles bytecode to machine code for extra performance. The JRE is the Java Runtime Environment which includes the JVM as well as all of the libraries needed to run (most) Java applications. This is also referred to as J2SE and, now, Java SE (Standard Edition) since we're a long way past Java 2. The JDK is the Java Development Kit and includes the compiler and some other stuff (as well as the JRE). Then there's J2EE which is now known as Java EE - Enterprise Edition. This includes all of the additional libraries and tools for writing Enterprise Java Beans and all of the optional stuff in the EE spec above and beyond the SE spec. Then your app server runs on that. This is JRun, or WebShpere or whatever. (This is the J2EE part, right?) Yes, a Java EE app server runs on top of the JRE and provides all of the libraries etc that are part of EE (above and beyond SE). But Tomcat - a Servlet container - also runs on top of the JRE. Think of a Servlet container as a (fairly small) subset of a Java EE app server. Then your CF instance(s) are deployed to the app server (possibly as an EAR or a WAR). Right, CF can run on any Servlet container such as Tomcat or any Java EE app server. A WAR can be deployed on a Servlet container. An EAR requires a Java EE server. Hope that helps? -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295326 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
Hope that helps? Very much so-- thanks. I need to find (or make) a big Venn diagram that shows all these relations... ~Brad ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295329 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
Actually, thank you for the clarification. There are many acronyms in the Java world that I only partially understand sometimes. JRE, J2EE, JDK, JVM, EAR, WAR, ANT, JRun, etc... I'll admit, it's nice how well CF simplifies the messy stuff, but messing with the mutli-server install has a way of dumping you waist-deep with the unfamiliar (and previously hidden) world of Java. Sometimes I wish I had a Java background since I'm a kind of guy who wants to understand how it all works. So, to get this straight: The JRE (or SDK) runs on the OS. This is what defines what version of Java you are on. Would it best be described as a compiler, interpreter, a VM, or?? Then your app server runs on that. This is JRun, or WebShpere or whatever. (This is the J2EE part, right?) Then your CF instance(s) are deployed to the app server (possibly as an EAR or a WAR). Did I say it right? ~Brad JRun is not a JRE. JRun uses whatever JRE (actually JDK) that you've configured. Same for JBoss, WebSphere, WebLogic etc. You need a JDK in order to run a Java app server. Sorry to nit-pick but I think it's an important point and it's indicative of how little most folks really understand about the underpinnings of ColdFusion (and that's not a criticism since the whole point of CFML is to hide all that stuff). ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295316 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
Thank you for the input Adam. ~Brad -Original Message- From: Adam Haskell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:53 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions) We use clustered CF servers, most sitting behind F5 switches. We do sticky sessions with Jboss and WebSphere and have session replication with WebSphere. Not being an admin I like jboss as websphere is not easy to admin for a non admin type, its also expensive and heavy. You might note though that as far as I recall Jboss is only offically supported in non-cluster, if I recall this is more due to a lack of testing rather than a statement that it doesn't work. In Feburary we are migrating all our servers to WebSphere, mainly for a cost advantage over Red Hat's support price hike on Jboss. I'm still a huge Jboss fan as Websphere does not supply a good development environment, unless you use WASD ($$ and bloated). The community edition of Websphere is completely different technology so do not think you can deploy to that locally and have the same results in production. For CF development I wouldn't expect it to be an issue but if you are doing Java development as well the Websphere Community edition is no good, for now you are just as well of developing on Jboss. If anyone ever has questions about CF on Websphere or Jboss I'm always happy to help, I'm a big fan of developing on jboss + CF. Adam Haskell ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295251 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
On Dec 20, 2007 12:26 PM, Brad Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can I get a show of hands (off-list probably) from people out there using any JRE other than JRUN? JRun is not a JRE. JRun uses whatever JRE (actually JDK) that you've configured. Same for JBoss, WebSphere, WebLogic etc. You need a JDK in order to run a Java app server. Sorry to nit-pick but I think it's an important point and it's indicative of how little most folks really understand about the underpinnings of ColdFusion (and that's not a criticism since the whole point of CFML is to hide all that stuff). In answer to your question, I use JRun as my underlying app server in almost 100% of cases. I have also used JBoss but I really don't like it much (it's fussy and clunky and spews endless informational garbage in its default configuration). However, I *always* use the multiserver installation of ColdFusion so I have the option of multiple instances and using Java code outside ColdFusion. I would argue most CFers should be perfectly happy with JRun (but then I also strongly advocate *against* session replication :) -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295292 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
Interesting. Updater 7, huh? Isn't it about time for JRun 5? :) ~Brad -Original Message- From: Matthew Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 9:22 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions) But wait! Adobe just released updater 7 for JRun 4. It's supposed to have vastly improved on the clustering interfacing by reducing a bunch of the overhead. I'm slated to test this on my shared servers for this coming year. Matthew Williams Geodesic GraFX www.geodesicgrafx.com/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295198 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
Interesting. Updater 7, huh? Isn't it about time for JRun 5? :) ~Brad You'd think. However, JRun is dead as an independent platform. From hence force forward, no new updates unless CF requires it. Not many care, however ;). Matthew Williams Geodesic GraFX www.geodesicgrafx.com/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295209 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
You'd think. However, JRun is dead as an independent platform. From hence force forward, no new updates unless CF requires it. Not many care, however ;). I see. There never seems to be an over-abundance of people on the list willing to answer questions about JRun, let along other J2EE servers. Maybe that is because most people are using single-instance installs and don't know/care about the man behind the Java curtain. Can I get a show of hands (off-list probably) from people out there using any JRE other than JRUN? Sometimes I think Dave W, Sean, and Jochem are the only people with experience in that realm. (And their help is always much appreciated!) Heck, raise your hand if you use JRun in Multi-Server mode too. One thing I don't want to do is move to another J2EE platform because it think it has more features and then find myself all alone. :) Thanks. ~Brad ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295211 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
+1 for Mutli-Instance on JRun ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295216 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
+1 for Mutli-Instance on JRun Here as well. Also running clustering. Matthew Williams ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295218 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
We use clustered CF servers, most sitting behind F5 switches. We do sticky sessions with Jboss and WebSphere and have session replication with WebSphere. Not being an admin I like jboss as websphere is not easy to admin for a non admin type, its also expensive and heavy. You might note though that as far as I recall Jboss is only offically supported in non-cluster, if I recall this is more due to a lack of testing rather than a statement that it doesn't work. In Feburary we are migrating all our servers to WebSphere, mainly for a cost advantage over Red Hat's support price hike on Jboss. I'm still a huge Jboss fan as Websphere does not supply a good development environment, unless you use WASD ($$ and bloated). The community edition of Websphere is completely different technology so do not think you can deploy to that locally and have the same results in production. For CF development I wouldn't expect it to be an issue but if you are doing Java development as well the Websphere Community edition is no good, for now you are just as well of developing on Jboss. If anyone ever has questions about CF on Websphere or Jboss I'm always happy to help, I'm a big fan of developing on jboss + CF. Adam Haskell On Dec 20, 2007 3:26 PM, Brad Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You'd think. However, JRun is dead as an independent platform. From hence force forward, no new updates unless CF requires it. Not many care, however ;). I see. There never seems to be an over-abundance of people on the list willing to answer questions about JRun, let along other J2EE servers. Maybe that is because most people are using single-instance installs and don't know/care about the man behind the Java curtain. Can I get a show of hands (off-list probably) from people out there using any JRE other than JRUN? Sometimes I think Dave W, Sean, and Jochem are the only people with experience in that realm. (And their help is always much appreciated!) Heck, raise your hand if you use JRun in Multi-Server mode too. One thing I don't want to do is move to another J2EE platform because it think it has more features and then find myself all alone. :) Thanks. ~Brad ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295221 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
I'd generally recommend you use an enterprise J2EE server that does replication in an intelligent way - i.e., not JRun). Funny you say that-- I had always assumed that people DID view JRUN as an enterprise J2EE server. I have always been reticent to move away from JRUN because I expected CF to work more reliably with it and support to be more readily available. Of course neither of those factors necessarily preclude the possibility that JRUN may lack in its session replication. We are in the process of trying to consolidate our CF apps and Java apps so they can be deployed on the same J2EE server. Our Java team has used WebSphere, JBoss, Tomcat and JRUN in the past. Do you have a personal preference over JRUN, Sean? Or anyone for that matter who has experience. ~Brad ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295148 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
Funny you say that-- I had always assumed that people DID view JRUN as an enterprise J2EE server. I have always been reticent to move away from JRUN because I expected CF to work more reliably with it and support to be more readily available. Of course neither of those factors necessarily preclude the possibility that JRUN may lack in its session replication. We are in the process of trying to consolidate our CF apps and Java apps so they can be deployed on the same J2EE server. Our Java team has used WebSphere, JBoss, Tomcat and JRUN in the past. Do you have a personal preference over JRUN, Sean? Or anyone for that matter who has experience. JRun is not an enterprise J2EE server, it's a midrange J2EE server. WebSphere and WebLogic are enterprise servers. I haven't worked with WebLogic, but WebSphere has LOTS of functionality beyond what JRun offers. Of course, that functionality comes at a cost - it's very complicated. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295153 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
Thanks for the insight as usual, Dave. Sean's comment has got me thinking about seriously considering a J2EE platform other than JRun. Can anyone find any good resources which juxtapose the features, ease of use, cost etc of major J2EE players. I Googled for a while and couldn't turn up much. Thanks. ~Brad JRun is not an enterprise J2EE server, it's a midrange J2EE server. WebSphere and WebLogic are enterprise servers. I haven't worked with WebLogic, but WebSphere has LOTS of functionality beyond what JRun offers. Of course, that functionality comes at a cost - it's very complicated. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295157 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
But wait! Adobe just released updater 7 for JRun 4. It's supposed to have vastly improved on the clustering interfacing by reducing a bunch of the overhead. I'm slated to test this on my shared servers for this coming year. Matthew Williams Geodesic GraFX www.geodesicgrafx.com/blog ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295163 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
On Dec 19, 2007 7:21 PM, Matthew Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But wait! Adobe just released updater 7 for JRun 4. It's supposed to have vastly improved on the clustering interfacing by reducing a bunch of the overhead. I'm slated to test this on my shared servers for this coming year. Ah, I haven't seen the release notes for that yet... As Dave says tho', JRun is a mid-range J2EE server but the question (for Brad) is what do you really need in a J2EE server that you're willing to pay, say, $10k per CPU for one? Whilst JRun's session replication may have its flaws, I contend that the vast majority of sites don't need anything more sophisticated. CF itself runs in a Servlet container perfectly happily, for example Tomcat, and you can now run CF on JBoss as a supported configuration. WebSphere and WebLogic are very sophisticated systems, very robust - and very expensive. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295167 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: JREE Servers (was Session Management - sticky sessions)
Sean, Any opinions on how JBoss compares against the two? Mark On Dec 20, 2007 6:07 PM, Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 19, 2007 7:21 PM, Matthew Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But wait! Adobe just released updater 7 for JRun 4. It's supposed to have vastly improved on the clustering interfacing by reducing a bunch of the overhead. I'm slated to test this on my shared servers for this coming year. Ah, I haven't seen the release notes for that yet... As Dave says tho', JRun is a mid-range J2EE server but the question (for Brad) is what do you really need in a J2EE server that you're willing to pay, say, $10k per CPU for one? Whilst JRun's session replication may have its flaws, I contend that the vast majority of sites don't need anything more sophisticated. CF itself runs in a Servlet container perfectly happily, for example Tomcat, and you can now run CF on JBoss as a supported configuration. WebSphere and WebLogic are very sophisticated systems, very robust - and very expensive. -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:295168 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
