Re: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one.
That's the one problem I can't get around with PLUM. As soon as they can support MySQL, I will certainly revisit the possibility of using PLUM. You know, come to think of it, I wonder if the new Oracle Express free version would work with PLUM; maybe I'll go check that out. Express is 10g and PLUM's system requirements do say 9i, so I don't know whether it'll work or not. --Ferg Barney Boisvert wrote: Yep, you're correct about only the IDE requiring windows. But PLUM itself only supports MSSQL, Access and Oracle 9i. Granted, Oracle isn't Windows-only, but it's also massively non-free. You might be able to develop on one of those, and then deploy to something else, but it'd undoubtedly be a bunch of work. cheers, barneyb On 11/13/05, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sadly doesn't mind working on a windows machine rules out a lot more than just Sean. Not to belittle the work they've done in any way (from what I understand, it's pretty impressive), but using Java, Ruby, Python, etc. rather than .NET would have made for a much larger target audience. Java seems the obvious choice, since CF is itself a Java application, but any cross-platform environment would have worked just as well. The only part of PLUM that requires Windows is the IDE, if I recall correctly. The generated application runs on any CF server. The vast majority of CF developers run Windows desktops - despite the popularity of OSX among developers now, I seriously doubt that more than one out of, say, every five hundred CF developers runs something other than Windows. It's worth pointing out that the membership of this list isn't necessarily representative of CF users in general - I suspect that the percentage of non-Windows users is higher here than elsewhere. My evidence for this is purely anecdotal, but I've met a lot of CF developers, most of whom are not readers of this list. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.319.6145 http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 100 invites. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:224059 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one.
The latest update concerning supporting additional databases, (and other updates) was a call for interested parties to help with the porting. The plan is to open up further development to the community. I know you are not alone in wanting MYSQL support, but I think, being as it is a freely supplied piece of software, which took huge effort to put together, Adam and David choose what they felt were the most common databases for version 1.0 (plus I don't think Adam has much respect for MySql, maybe that will change with 5.0). www.productivityenhancement.com Mark -Original Message- From: Ken Ferguson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 9:02 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one. That's the one problem I can't get around with PLUM. As soon as they can support MySQL, I will certainly revisit the possibility of using PLUM. You know, come to think of it, I wonder if the new Oracle Express free version would work with PLUM; maybe I'll go check that out. Express is 10g and PLUM's system requirements do say 9i, so I don't know whether it'll work or not. --Ferg Barney Boisvert wrote: Yep, you're correct about only the IDE requiring windows. But PLUM itself only supports MSSQL, Access and Oracle 9i. Granted, Oracle isn't Windows-only, but it's also massively non-free. You might be able to develop on one of those, and then deploy to something else, but it'd undoubtedly be a bunch of work. cheers, barneyb On 11/13/05, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sadly doesn't mind working on a windows machine rules out a lot more than just Sean. Not to belittle the work they've done in any way (from what I understand, it's pretty impressive), but using Java, Ruby, Python, etc. rather than .NET would have made for a much larger target audience. Java seems the obvious choice, since CF is itself a Java application, but any cross-platform environment would have worked just as well. The only part of PLUM that requires Windows is the IDE, if I recall correctly. The generated application runs on any CF server. The vast majority of CF developers run Windows desktops - despite the popularity of OSX among developers now, I seriously doubt that more than one out of, say, every five hundred CF developers runs something other than Windows. It's worth pointing out that the membership of this list isn't necessarily representative of CF users in general - I suspect that the percentage of non-Windows users is higher here than elsewhere. My evidence for this is purely anecdotal, but I've met a lot of CF developers, most of whom are not readers of this list. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.319.6145 http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 100 invites. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:224060 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one.
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. I looked at it for a couple of weeks and was REALLY impressed. Adam and David have done incredibly strong work. They probably picked the correct databases to support in the beginning too, given the limited resources... If I could change what I use at work to fit around what they've got going already, I'd take a strong look at doing that. I'm one of the OS X users here on the list, but I've got Virtual PC and would have no problems using it once in a while to run the PLUM IDE; that's exactly the kind of thing I bought it for in the first place. --Ferg Mark Fuqua wrote: The latest update concerning supporting additional databases, (and other updates) was a call for interested parties to help with the porting. The plan is to open up further development to the community. I know you are not alone in wanting MYSQL support, but I think, being as it is a freely supplied piece of software, which took huge effort to put together, Adam and David choose what they felt were the most common databases for version 1.0 (plus I don't think Adam has much respect for MySql, maybe that will change with 5.0). www.productivityenhancement.com Mark ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:224062 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one.
On 11/11/05, Mark Fuqua [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good morning, Could one of the guys who has done work with RoR work through the tutorials for PLUM? It seems to me the two have similar features. It would have to be someone who doesn't mind working on a windows machine (rules out Sean, who might be the best suited). There are certainly similarities -- *any* tool for autogenerating web application skeletons will be similar since the fundamental problem they are trying to solve it the same. I really can't believe Ruby would be/could be quicker than PLUM. It might be more OO, but it can't be more RAD. Do the mappings, point plum at your database, spend an hour or so in the IDE and modifying the CSS files and tweaking the generated code...and a HUGE amount of work is done. siderbarRuby is not equivalent to PLUM -- *Rails* is. Ruby is the language, so it takes the place of CF. Rails is a set of Ruby libraries./sidebar Speed depends on your point of view -- PLUM takes infintely longer if you want to use a non-supported database or develop on MacOS or Linux. And it's important to point out that Rails doesn't have an IDE -- it's got some generation scripts that can build your skeleton, but you use your own IDE (eg ActiveState's Komodo, RadRails for Eclipse, Apple's XCode, or the very popular MacOS TextMate are common). But I'd heartily suggest that if you're not comfortable with Ruby or with OO in general, taking a pass on Rails and focus on CF. A lot of *my* part of this Rails discussion has specfically focused on ActiveRecord -- which is an ORM for Ruby that is fundamental to the model layer of Rails. You can have everything listed below, in less than 15 minutes, but to have it the way you really want it will take a few hours. But seriously, in a few hours you can have all the below, formatted the way you want it. sniplots of cool PLUM features/snip Rails has some really sexy features for building web apps as well * great AJAX implementation * hook-ins for web services (though CF is pretty sweet in that regard as well) * cool data structure handling, like acts_as_tree and acts_as_list in ActiveRecord but a feature-by-feature comparison isn't really all that important -- both will get your app built. The tools are aimed at different audiences -- PLUM is oriented around an IDE, which is a very different approach from Rails. Rails is heavily steeped in open source while PLUM focuses (quite correctly IMHO) on the features common to the majority of CF developers (e.g. Win desktop, MS-SQL/Oracle db) I know this shows off my selfishness and insecurity more than I would like to admit, but I am really torn between trying to make sure everyone gives PLUM a good look and selfishly keeping this secret to myself. So pay attention, if you really want to see RAD, spend a day exploring PLUM. David and Adam Churvis have created quite a labor of love. Rails is about more than RAD, which is a fundamental distinction between it and PLUM. Doesn't make it better or worse, just different. What a lot of people from other languages find specifically interesting about Rails is ActiveRecord -- which is an implementation of a well-known design pattern. The implementation is *sweet* though, and Joe Rineheart's giving it a go with Arf. Looking at other frameworks (including PLUM, natch) is the only way to really improve and extend existing frameworks and libraries -- and that's why looking at Rails is really healthy. -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:224067 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one.
Sadly doesn't mind working on a windows machine rules out a lot more than just Sean. Not to belittle the work they've done in any way (from what I understand, it's pretty impressive), but using Java, Ruby, Python, etc. rather than .NET would have made for a much larger target audience. Java seems the obvious choice, since CF is itself a Java application, but any cross-platform environment would have worked just as well. The only part of PLUM that requires Windows is the IDE, if I recall correctly. The generated application runs on any CF server. The vast majority of CF developers run Windows desktops - despite the popularity of OSX among developers now, I seriously doubt that more than one out of, say, every five hundred CF developers runs something other than Windows. It's worth pointing out that the membership of this list isn't necessarily representative of CF users in general - I suspect that the percentage of non-Windows users is higher here than elsewhere. My evidence for this is purely anecdotal, but I've met a lot of CF developers, most of whom are not readers of this list. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:224030 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one.
Yep, you're correct about only the IDE requiring windows. But PLUM itself only supports MSSQL, Access and Oracle 9i. Granted, Oracle isn't Windows-only, but it's also massively non-free. You might be able to develop on one of those, and then deploy to something else, but it'd undoubtedly be a bunch of work. cheers, barneyb On 11/13/05, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sadly doesn't mind working on a windows machine rules out a lot more than just Sean. Not to belittle the work they've done in any way (from what I understand, it's pretty impressive), but using Java, Ruby, Python, etc. rather than .NET would have made for a much larger target audience. Java seems the obvious choice, since CF is itself a Java application, but any cross-platform environment would have worked just as well. The only part of PLUM that requires Windows is the IDE, if I recall correctly. The generated application runs on any CF server. The vast majority of CF developers run Windows desktops - despite the popularity of OSX among developers now, I seriously doubt that more than one out of, say, every five hundred CF developers runs something other than Windows. It's worth pointing out that the membership of this list isn't necessarily representative of CF users in general - I suspect that the percentage of non-Windows users is higher here than elsewhere. My evidence for this is purely anecdotal, but I've met a lot of CF developers, most of whom are not readers of this list. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.319.6145 http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 100 invites. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:224034 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one.
Hey, just for the record, I sent this out yesterday at 10:30 am. Don't know why it didn't post til today (most likely on my side since everyone elses posts came through). I am sorry about the triple post, only meant to post once, but posted again when I noticed it was not comming through. Mark -Original Message- From: Barney Boisvert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 1:00 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one. Yep, you're correct about only the IDE requiring windows. But PLUM itself only supports MSSQL, Access and Oracle 9i. Granted, Oracle isn't Windows-only, but it's also massively non-free. You might be able to develop on one of those, and then deploy to something else, but it'd undoubtedly be a bunch of work. cheers, barneyb On 11/13/05, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sadly doesn't mind working on a windows machine rules out a lot more than just Sean. Not to belittle the work they've done in any way (from what I understand, it's pretty impressive), but using Java, Ruby, Python, etc. rather than .NET would have made for a much larger target audience. Java seems the obvious choice, since CF is itself a Java application, but any cross-platform environment would have worked just as well. The only part of PLUM that requires Windows is the IDE, if I recall correctly. The generated application runs on any CF server. The vast majority of CF developers run Windows desktops - despite the popularity of OSX among developers now, I seriously doubt that more than one out of, say, every five hundred CF developers runs something other than Windows. It's worth pointing out that the membership of this list isn't necessarily representative of CF users in general - I suspect that the percentage of non-Windows users is higher here than elsewhere. My evidence for this is purely anecdotal, but I've met a lot of CF developers, most of whom are not readers of this list. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.319.6145 http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 100 invites. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:224035 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one.
Good morning, Could one of the guys who has done work with RoR work through the tutorials for PLUM? It seems to me the two have similar features. It would have to be someone who doesn't mind working on a windows machine (rules out Sean, who might be the best suited). I really can't believe Ruby would be/could be quicker than PLUM. It might be more OO, but it can't be more RAD. Do the mappings, point plum at your database, spend an hour or so in the IDE and modifying the CSS files and tweaking the generated code...and a HUGE amount of work is done. You can have everything listed below, in less than 15 minutes, but to have it the way you really want it will take a few hours. But seriously, in a few hours you can have all the below, formatted the way you want it. Search, add, edit, delete, view and list pages for any table or group of parent/child tables, done. Qforms client side validation and server side validation, done. Complete security system, by module, page or page section, real simple real easy. Along with emailing lost passwords and the whole shebang, done. Verity search capabilities completely set up for you. With easy to add/update indexes, done. Plus easily generate unit testing and stored proceedures. Plus a ton of custom tags which make development of most pages a piece of cake. Plus, the flexibility to not use any of the custom tag on any page you need to do complicated coding for, Just put this line at the top of the page cfmodule template=#Request.layout#/Header.cfm pageType=pageType ( the pageType attribute determines layout and page level access) and the application security and CSS and qforms stuff is there for your page. I know this shows off my selfishness and insecurity more than I would like to admit, but I am really torn between trying to make sure everyone gives PLUM a good look and selfishly keeping this secret to myself. So pay attention, if you really want to see RAD, spend a day exploring PLUM. David and Adam Churvis have created quite a labor of love. www.productivityenhancement.com Mark ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:224018 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one.
Good morning, Could one of the guys who has done work with RoR work through the tutorials for PLUM? It seems to me the two have similar features. It would have to be someone who doesn't mind working on a windows machine (rules out Sean, who might be the best suited). I really can't believe Ruby would be/could be quicker than PLUM. It might be more OO, but it can't be more RAD. Do the mappings, point plum at your database, spend an hour or so in the IDE and modifying the CSS files and tweaking the generated code...and a HUGE amount of work is done. You can have everything listed below, in less than 15 minutes, but to have it the way you really want it will take a few hours. But seriously, in a few hours you can have all the below, formatted the way you want it. Search, add, edit, delete, view and list pages for any table or group of parent/child tables, done. Qforms client side validation and server side validation, done. Complete security system, by module, page or page section, real simple real easy. Along with emailing lost passwords and the whole shebang, done. Verity search capabilities completely set up for you. With easy to add/update indexes, done. Plus easily generate unit testing and stored proceedures. Plus a ton of custom tags which make development of most pages a piece of cake. Plus, the flexibility to not use any of the custom tag on any page you need to do complicated coding for, Just put this line at the top of the page cfmodule template=#Request.layout#/Header.cfm pageType=pageType ( the pageType attribute determines layout and page level access) and the application security and CSS and qforms stuff is there for your page. I know this shows off my selfishness and insecurity more than I would like to admit, but I am really torn between trying to make sure everyone gives PLUM a good look and selfishly keeping this secret to myself. So pay attention, if you really want to see RAD, spend a day exploring PLUM. David and Adam Churvis have created quite a labor of love. www.productivityenhancement.com Mark -Original Message- From: Marlon Moyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 1:00 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: OT: Ruby on Rails That's the thing, RoR made it so easy to be able to store the image in a database, but still have the speed of a cached copy on the file server. In essence, the first time /image/show/1.jpg is called, RoR will notice there is no file called 1.jpg and will automatically create the 1.jpg file on the filesystem. So from them on, I get the benefit of a quick file serve with the portability to different servers. I'm sure you could do the same with CF, but with RoR it's built in. That's where the main difference is for me between the 2. RoR has a ton of stuff built in that most developers do everyday. It may not be the most efficient, but it can get a lot of stuff done quick. On 11/10/05, Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why can't you do thumbnailing like that with CF? I've done almost exactly that, they only difference is that I store the thumbnail on the filesystem (though it's still served through CF), rather than the DB. cheers, barneyb -- Marlon I am the eagle, I live in high country, In rocky cathedrals that reach to the sky ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:224020 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails hey, read this one.
Sadly doesn't mind working on a windows machine rules out a lot more than just Sean. Not to belittle the work they've done in any way (from what I understand, it's pretty impressive), but using Java, Ruby, Python, etc. rather than .NET would have made for a much larger target audience. Java seems the obvious choice, since CF is itself a Java application, but any cross-platform environment would have worked just as well. cheers, barneyb On 11/11/05, Mark Fuqua [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good morning, Could one of the guys who has done work with RoR work through the tutorials for PLUM? It seems to me the two have similar features. It would have to be someone who doesn't mind working on a windows machine (rules out Sean, who might be the best suited). I really can't believe Ruby would be/could be quicker than PLUM. It might be more OO, but it can't be more RAD. Do the mappings, point plum at your database, spend an hour or so in the IDE and modifying the CSS files and tweaking the generated code...and a HUGE amount of work is done. You can have everything listed below, in less than 15 minutes, but to have it the way you really want it will take a few hours. But seriously, in a few hours you can have all the below, formatted the way you want it. Search, add, edit, delete, view and list pages for any table or group of parent/child tables, done. Qforms client side validation and server side validation, done. Complete security system, by module, page or page section, real simple real easy. Along with emailing lost passwords and the whole shebang, done. Verity search capabilities completely set up for you. With easy to add/update indexes, done. Plus easily generate unit testing and stored proceedures. Plus a ton of custom tags which make development of most pages a piece of cake. Plus, the flexibility to not use any of the custom tag on any page you need to do complicated coding for, Just put this line at the top of the page cfmodule template=#Request.layout#/Header.cfm pageType=pageType ( the pageType attribute determines layout and page level access) and the application security and CSS and qforms stuff is there for your page. I know this shows off my selfishness and insecurity more than I would like to admit, but I am really torn between trying to make sure everyone gives PLUM a good look and selfishly keeping this secret to myself. So pay attention, if you really want to see RAD, spend a day exploring PLUM. David and Adam Churvis have created quite a labor of love. www.productivityenhancement.com Mark -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.319.6145 http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 100 invites. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:224021 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
I'm sorry, but the whole RoR site kinda gives me tired-head. Maybe I'm just getting old, but I'm rarely ever excited by the next new thing in this industry anymore. --Ferg ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223938 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
I was considering using CF to serve the thumbnail a feature - they're access controlled. ; ) I suppose the automated writing of the DB-stored image to disk is a useful feature, but c'mon, it's one line of code in CF (a CFFILE tag). But it really doesn't matter. Both are good, both are bad, and unless you're discussing a specific application, neither is better than the other. cheers, barneyb On 11/10/05, Marlon Moyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's the thing, RoR made it so easy to be able to store the image in a database, but still have the speed of a cached copy on the file server. In essence, the first time /image/show/1.jpg is called, RoR will notice there is no file called 1.jpg and will automatically create the 1.jpg file on the filesystem. So from them on, I get the benefit of a quick file serve with the portability to different servers. I'm sure you could do the same with CF, but with RoR it's built in. That's where the main difference is for me between the 2. RoR has a ton of stuff built in that most developers do everyday. It may not be the most efficient, but it can get a lot of stuff done quick. -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.319.6145 http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 100 invites. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223984 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
Correct, I don't plan on abandoning CF anytime soon. I just figure RoR is one more tool in my toolset. It's also opened my eyes to different ways of doing things. I'd become so comfortable with CF, I just always did things pretty much the same way. At least now I consider different ways :) On 11/11/05, Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was considering using CF to serve the thumbnail a feature - they're access controlled. ; ) I suppose the automated writing of the DB-stored image to disk is a useful feature, but c'mon, it's one line of code in CF (a CFFILE tag). But it really doesn't matter. Both are good, both are bad, and unless you're discussing a specific application, neither is better than the other. cheers, barneyb On 11/10/05, Marlon Moyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's the thing, RoR made it so easy to be able to store the image in a database, but still have the speed of a cached copy on the file server. In essence, the first time /image/show/1.jpg is called, RoR will notice there is no file called 1.jpg and will automatically create the 1.jpg file on the filesystem. So from them on, I get the benefit of a quick file serve with the portability to different servers. I'm sure you could do the same with CF, but with RoR it's built in. That's where the main difference is for me between the 2. RoR has a ton of stuff built in that most developers do everyday. It may not be the most efficient, but it can get a lot of stuff done quick. -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.319.6145 http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 100 invites. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223985 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
OT: Ruby on Rails
Not looking for a huge thread herebut I just watched a demo on Ruby on Rails and am left with these impressions/questions: 1) On the surface...DAMN! Sure could be better than CF for RAD 2) Demo was WAY too simple (basic blog). I'd bet that if you had conditional form validation (i.e. start date must be before end date), then Ruby starts to fall down (as it seems to derive form validation from data types and constraints). Sofor those that have used or looked further into RoRhow does it stack up when you have to build something other than a basic web app like a blog/cart/webmail/etc.?? Does development take longer as you need to tweak things from the basic functionality? TIA Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223862 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
The auto generated stuff is very sweet, but it doesn't build applications. You (the developer) still have to develop it. It just helps you with some of the common tasks. So yes, a full-scale app will take longer than something that relies soley on the generated stuff. But even if you don't use much of the automatic stuff, the automated bean persistance and the templating libraries are quite useful on their own. cheers, barneyb On 11/10/05, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not looking for a huge thread herebut I just watched a demo on Ruby on Rails and am left with these impressions/questions: 1) On the surface...DAMN! Sure could be better than CF for RAD 2) Demo was WAY too simple (basic blog). I'd bet that if you had conditional form validation (i.e. start date must be before end date), then Ruby starts to fall down (as it seems to derive form validation from data types and constraints). Sofor those that have used or looked further into RoRhow does it stack up when you have to build something other than a basic web app like a blog/cart/webmail/etc.?? Does development take longer as you need to tweak things from the basic functionality? TIA Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.319.6145 http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 100 invites. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223868 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
Thanks Barneylooks like my impression was pretty closeI'll play when I have some time ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223869 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
On 11/10/05, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not looking for a huge thread herebut I just watched a demo on Ruby on Rails and am left with these impressions/questions: 1) On the surface...DAMN! Sure could be better than CF for RAD Yes, it sure can work as a killer RAD tool for web apps. 2) Demo was WAY too simple (basic blog). I'd bet that if you had conditional form validation (i.e. start date must be before end date), then Ruby starts to fall down (as it seems to derive form validation from data types and constraints). Not at all -- Ruby's *really* flexible for that sort of thing. (As an aside, *Rails* is what handles the automatic validation -- Ruby is the language it's written in) You just have to actually write a little code (just as you would in any language). You'd do something like class someObject ActiveRecord::Base def validate if end_datestart_date errors.add(:end_date, must be before start data) end end There's a lot of helpers for validation and it's easy to write your own into reusable libraries. Most of the magic is built into the ActiveRecord library Sofor those that have used or looked further into RoRhow does it stack up when you have to build something other than a basic web app like a blog/cart/webmail/etc.?? Does development take longer as you need to tweak things from the basic functionality? Assuming you know Ruby, it's *really* fast. I've worked on several RoR sites -- including a moderately sized ecommerce site. This is fast. But it's important to realize, Ruby vs. CF isn't really the issue -- it's the Rails framework vs CF framework X (MachII/FB/MG/onTap/Batfink/whatever). Rails has a killer ORM in ActiveRecord, testing built-in in a really nice way, several templating languages, and a simple, flexible MVC controller in a package that can generate scaffolding by itself. Nothing stops CF from having a similar framework :) As an aside -- pick up the Rails book from the pragmatic programmers if you really want to get into rails... though there's been a ton added to Rails since Aug. -- John Paul Ashenfelter CTO/Transitionpoint (blog) http://www.ashenfelter.com (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223871 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
Thanks John Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223876 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
And while we are talking about ActiveRecord its only fare to bring up Joe's new enry into this field. Arf is an active record inspired ORM tool for CF. Joe blogged about it on his site http://www.clearsoftware.net and arf has a community project page at http://projects.simb.net/arf/trac.cgi Take a look its really a neat projects. And in cf! simeon On 11/10/05, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks John Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com http://www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223888 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
Welcome to the service, please grab a cup of kool-aid from the table there and have a seat. :) Actually, ever since messing around with ruby, I sometimes get frustrated with CF because there's just not as elegant solutions possible to some problems. Take for instance thumbnailing. In one of my apps, I let the user upload whatever size image the user wants to. On the fly, my program resizes it to constraints and stuffs it in a db blob field. The image never has to go to the file system. In all, it takes about 6~8 lines of code. The code to pull the image out of the db and serve it to the browser is 2 lines and the code to cache the image on the file system for the next request is 1 line. That said, the learning curve and ease of doing some things in CF still keeps it near the king of RAD status On 11/10/05, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not looking for a huge thread herebut I just watched a demo on Ruby on Rails and am left with these impressions/questions: 1) On the surface...DAMN! Sure could be better than CF for RAD 2) Demo was WAY too simple (basic blog). I'd bet that if you had conditional form validation (i.e. start date must be before end date), then Ruby starts to fall down (as it seems to derive form validation from data types and constraints). Sofor those that have used or looked further into RoRhow does it stack up when you have to build something other than a basic web app like a blog/cart/webmail/etc.?? Does development take longer as you need to tweak things from the basic functionality? TIA Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223899 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
Why can't you do thumbnailing like that with CF? I've done almost exactly that, they only difference is that I store the thumbnail on the filesystem (though it's still served through CF), rather than the DB. cheers, barneyb On 11/10/05, Marlon Moyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Welcome to the service, please grab a cup of kool-aid from the table there and have a seat. :) Actually, ever since messing around with ruby, I sometimes get frustrated with CF because there's just not as elegant solutions possible to some problems. Take for instance thumbnailing. In one of my apps, I let the user upload whatever size image the user wants to. On the fly, my program resizes it to constraints and stuffs it in a db blob field. The image never has to go to the file system. In all, it takes about 6~8 lines of code. The code to pull the image out of the db and serve it to the browser is 2 lines and the code to cache the image on the file system for the next request is 1 line. That said, the learning curve and ease of doing some things in CF still keeps it near the king of RAD status On 11/10/05, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not looking for a huge thread herebut I just watched a demo on Ruby on Rails and am left with these impressions/questions: 1) On the surface...DAMN! Sure could be better than CF for RAD 2) Demo was WAY too simple (basic blog). I'd bet that if you had conditional form validation (i.e. start date must be before end date), then Ruby starts to fall down (as it seems to derive form validation from data types and constraints). Sofor those that have used or looked further into RoRhow does it stack up when you have to build something other than a basic web app like a blog/cart/webmail/etc.?? Does development take longer as you need to tweak things from the basic functionality? TIA Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223904 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
On 11/10/05, Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) On the surface...DAMN! Sure could be better than CF for RAD Yes, the first impressions of RoR are usually Wow!. 2) Demo was WAY too simple (basic blog). I'd bet that if you had conditional form validation (i.e. start date must be before end date), then Ruby starts to fall down (as it seems to derive form validation from data types and constraints). As JPA pointed out, you can do all of that BUT you have to write code to do it. Sofor those that have used or looked further into RoRhow does it stack up when you have to build something other than a basic web app like a blog/cart/webmail/etc.?? Does development take longer as you need to tweak things from the basic functionality? Well... Yes, the more complex your app, the more code you have to write. I wrote up my experience of installing it and running through some tutorials: http://corfield.org/blog/index.cfm/do/blog.entry/entry/Ruby_on_Rails__Part_I I'll be writing up more in due course, as and when I get some of that elusive free time. First off, ActiveRecord works magic *if* your database tables match Rails' protocols (table naming, primary key naming etc). If your database doesn't match, you have to write mapping information into your objects (no big deal in and of itself but the start of a slope). You have to explicitly tell RoR about the relationships between the tables (and the foreign key fields need to follow Rails' protocol too - unless you want to write mappings for those). Then there's the basic CRUD scaffolding. Yes, it auto-generates the bare bones add / show / edit / delete / list UI for you but if you want to change anything, you need to start editing forms and modifying the controllers. So, to get a quick'n'dirty prototype up takes next to no time and that *is* impressive. I personally have concerns about the scalability of RoR (in terms of application complexity as well as raw performance) but there are some sites that get a reasonable amount of traffic that seem to run just fine on RoR - I suspect they're not really doing anything particularly complex and I don't think their traffic is high enough that I would expect to see problems. My opinion. -- Sean A Corfield -- http://corfield.org/ Got frameworks? If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive. -- Margaret Atwood ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223914 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: Ruby on Rails
That's the thing, RoR made it so easy to be able to store the image in a database, but still have the speed of a cached copy on the file server. In essence, the first time /image/show/1.jpg is called, RoR will notice there is no file called 1.jpg and will automatically create the 1.jpg file on the filesystem. So from them on, I get the benefit of a quick file serve with the portability to different servers. I'm sure you could do the same with CF, but with RoR it's built in. That's where the main difference is for me between the 2. RoR has a ton of stuff built in that most developers do everyday. It may not be the most efficient, but it can get a lot of stuff done quick. On 11/10/05, Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why can't you do thumbnailing like that with CF? I've done almost exactly that, they only difference is that I store the thumbnail on the filesystem (though it's still served through CF), rather than the DB. cheers, barneyb -- Marlon I am the eagle, I live in high country, In rocky cathedrals that reach to the sky ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:223915 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
