Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-29 Thread Sean A Corfield
On Tuesday, Mar 25, 2003, at 05:35 US/Pacific, Calvin Ward wrote:
 This is great stuff! Which application example provides us a view of
 utilizing CFCs in this manner?

Is this what you're looking for? (I couldn't reply to your post until 
this article was published! :)

http://www.macromedia.com/special/under_the_hood/report1/

Sean A Corfield -- Director, Architecture
Web Technology Group -- Macromedia, Inc.
tel: (415) 252-2287 -- cell: (415) 717-8473
aim/iChat: seancorfield -- http://www.macromedia.com
An Architect's View -- http://www.macromedia.com/go/arch_blog

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Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-29 Thread Marius Milosav
Sean,

Any news on the cfcs (cffunctions) and transaction limitation?

I have raised the issue before and almost one year later there is no
official response if\ when this limitation  will be addressed.

In the mean time I would like to know how you had approach this issues in
re-designing the MM site.


thanks.
Marius Milosav
www.scorpiosoft.com
It's not about technology, it's about people.
Virtual Company (VICO) Application Demo
www.scorpiosoft.com/vicodemo/login.cfm

- Original Message -
From: Sean A Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML


 On Tuesday, Mar 25, 2003, at 05:35 US/Pacific, Calvin Ward wrote:
  This is great stuff! Which application example provides us a view of
  utilizing CFCs in this manner?

 Is this what you're looking for? (I couldn't reply to your post until
 this article was published! :)

 http://www.macromedia.com/special/under_the_hood/report1/

 Sean A Corfield -- Director, Architecture
 Web Technology Group -- Macromedia, Inc.
 tel: (415) 252-2287 -- cell: (415) 717-8473
 aim/iChat: seancorfield -- http://www.macromedia.com
 An Architect's View -- http://www.macromedia.com/go/arch_blog

 Announcing Macromedia DevNet Subscriptions
 Maximize your power with our new premium software subscription
 Find out more: http://www.macromedia.com/go/devnetsubs

 
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Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-29 Thread Sean A Corfield
On Saturday, Mar 29, 2003, at 16:18 US/Pacific, Marius Milosav wrote:
 Any news on the cfcs (cffunctions) and transaction limitation?

It's in the bugbase, it's being looked at, but of course I can't give 
any indication of when it might get fixed. Sorry.

 In the mean time I would like to know how you had approach this issues 
 in
 re-designing the MM site.

We don't actually have too many complex queries where cftransaction is 
an issue (except in some of the underlying membership system - since 
that is fairly complex and designed to be very flexible / extensible) 
but one option is to code it directly in the database as a stored 
procedure and have the database deal with rollback issues that way...

Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood

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Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-25 Thread Jochem van Dieten
Jim Davis wrote:
 Personally I use the Application scope for session data and roll my own
 timeout simply to gain the ability for end of session event
 processing.

If you use J2EE sessions you can create a listener in Java that listens 
for end of session events and acts on them. Although I am not sure if 
that works on all versions of CF MX, it might be CF MX for J2EE only.

Jochem

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Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-25 Thread Calvin Ward
Sean,

This is great stuff! Which application example provides us a view of
utilizing CFCs in this manner?

Calvin


- Original Message -
From: Sean A Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML


 On Monday, Mar 24, 2003, at 09:30 US/Pacific, Bryan Stevenson wrote:
  Could someone explain the benefit of holding CFCs in a session var?
  Say in
  the case of security or identifying details about a logged in user.

 Instead of having, say, half a dozen separate session variables holding
 information about a user, just have a CFC user.cfc and have it keep all
 that data internally (in the unnamed scope as instance data) and
 provide methods to manipulate it. It's really about the clarity of your
 model, keeping all your user state and user admin functions together in
 a CFC.

 Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/

 If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
 -- Margaret Atwood

 
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Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-25 Thread jon hall
The CF Pet Store is probably one of the best examples available.

-- 
 jon
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tuesday, March 25, 2003, 8:35:19 AM, you wrote:
CW Sean,

CW This is great stuff! Which application example provides us a view of
CW utilizing CFCs in this manner?

CW Calvin


CW - Original Message -
CW From: Sean A Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CW To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CW Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 11:40 PM
CW Subject: Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML


 On Monday, Mar 24, 2003, at 09:30 US/Pacific, Bryan Stevenson wrote:
  Could someone explain the benefit of holding CFCs in a session var?
  Say in
  the case of security or identifying details about a logged in user.

 Instead of having, say, half a dozen separate session variables holding
 information about a user, just have a CFC user.cfc and have it keep all
 that data internally (in the unnamed scope as instance data) and
 provide methods to manipulate it. It's really about the clarity of your
 model, keeping all your user state and user admin functions together in
 a CFC.

 Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/

 If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
 -- Margaret Atwood

 
CW 
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RE: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-25 Thread Jim Davis
 -Original Message-
 From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 3:52 AM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML
 
 
 Jim Davis wrote:
  Personally I use the Application scope for session data and roll my 
  own timeout simply to gain the ability for end of session event 
  processing.
 
 If you use J2EE sessions you can create a listener in Java 
 that listens 
 for end of session events and acts on them. Although I am not sure if 
 that works on all versions of CF MX, it might be CF MX for J2EE only.

Of course I'm still on v4.5 for most of my apps... ;^)

Jim Davis


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RE: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-24 Thread Jim Davis
Thanks to Sean and Dave and others for lending a hand.  I've updated the
guide with corrections and suggestions:

http://www.depressedpress.com/DepressedPress/Content/ColdFusion/Guides/V
ariables/Index.cfm

If you've got a minute I'd still some some more opinions.

Thanks in advance,

Jim Davis


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RE: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-24 Thread Matt Robertson
Hi Jim,

Isn't it possible for CFMX to scale session vars across a cluster now?
You don't mention that, or I missed it (whether it's a good idea or not
is another matter entirely).

Did you hit on session management in a cluster?  If it were me I'd go
with client vars, but I guess using either client or session is now
possible.

Just a coupla thoughts at a godawful late (early for some) hour of the
morning.


 Matt Robertson   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 MSB Designs, Inc.  http://mysecretbase.com



I've stopped 47,815 spam messages. You can too!
Get your free, safe spam protection at
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-Original Message-
From: Jim Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 12:06 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: Request for Review: Variables in CFML


Thanks to Sean and Dave and others for lending a hand.  I've updated the
guide with corrections and suggestions:

http://www.depressedpress.com/DepressedPress/Content/ColdFusion/Guides/V
ariables/Index.cfm

If you've got a minute I'd still some some more opinions.

Thanks in advance,

Jim Davis



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Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-24 Thread jon hall
Monday, March 24, 2003, 11:46:36 AM, you wrote:

SAC Client variables are restricted to simple data types, session variables 
SAC can be anything (including CFCs). That alone may be sufficient reason 
SAC to prefer session variables to client variables. Also, with client 
SAC variables, you are restricted to cookies (increasing download / get / 
SAC post time), registry (very bad!) or a database (serialization overhead 
SAC and data access times). I can't see the appeal of client variables so 
SAC I'd be interested to hear from folks - like Matt - who use them and 
SAC prefer them to session variables.

Pre MX, session variables required locking, and pre 5.0 they were
pretty unreliable imo. After being burned by disappearing session
variables, pccode errors, and very strange locking issues/bugs in
4.0/4.5 I swore them off.

Only very recently in MX have I started using them to hold cfcs.

-- 
 jon
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-24 Thread Bryan Stevenson
Personally I've always used client vars because of the less than stellar
track record of session vars and clustered servers.  If this issue has gone
away with CFMX, then I may look at session vars again (as they sure can make
life easier) ;-)

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP  Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
t. 250.920.8830
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-
Macromedia Associate Partner
www.macromedia.com
-
Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group
Founder  Director
www.cfug-vancouverisland.com
- Original Message -
From: Sean A Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML


 On Monday, Mar 24, 2003, at 02:57 US/Pacific, Matt Robertson wrote:
  Isn't it possible for CFMX to scale session vars across a cluster now?

 Yes, since you can use J2EE session variables and leverage the
 scalability of the underlying J2EE system.

  Did you hit on session management in a cluster?  If it were me I'd go
  with client vars, but I guess using either client or session is now
  possible.

 Client variables are restricted to simple data types, session variables
 can be anything (including CFCs). That alone may be sufficient reason
 to prefer session variables to client variables. Also, with client
 variables, you are restricted to cookies (increasing download / get /
 post time), registry (very bad!) or a database (serialization overhead
 and data access times). I can't see the appeal of client variables so
 I'd be interested to hear from folks - like Matt - who use them and
 prefer them to session variables.

 Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/

 If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
 -- Margaret Atwood

 
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RE: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-24 Thread Matt Robertson
Sean wrote:
 I'd be interested to hear from folks - like Matt - who use them and 
 prefer them to session variables.

You can pretty much take Jon Hall's post and add 'me too' to that.  I
had horrifying experiences with disappearing session vars, mostly
related to code running on shared servers and the instability that comes
from relying on memory-based storage.  

Using cvars for session management insulated my apps from cf service
restarts, even cold reboots, so long as the next page request falls
within the inactivity-based 'session' expiration the app still retains
the user's session.  

Now, that's not the same environment as a cluster at all, but take that
and couple it to the hoops necessary to jump thru when using an app that
requires a lot of persistent vars (i.e. Step 1: copy to request scope.
Step 2 process Step 3 copy back to session scope, and use locks... Or
lock everything individually everywhere) compared to the relative
simplicity of simply using cvars in code.  

I never missed the inability to store complex values given the ability
to use CFWDDX to handle that issue.  This is extra coding just like the
locking I was whining about above, but my frequency of need for complex
values isn't anything like the frequency associated with locking, and
planning efficient use of same.

I've never had a site that had high enough traffic to be able to notice
the load coming off the cvar storage db, so I can't say at what point a
cvar-based session management scheme will fall down where a svar-based
one will not.

To me, cvars are simpler to use and are, in my admittedly not
all-encompassing experience, inherently more stable given their more
permanent storage medium (a db, of course).

Question: CFMX uses J2EE's session variables.  I'm not up on this at
all, but doesn't that mean I have to be using the much more expensive
Enterprise for J2EE?  

Happy Monday :)


 Matt Robertson   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 MSB Designs, Inc.  http://mysecretbase.com


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RE: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-24 Thread Jim Davis
Personally I use the Application scope for session data and roll my own
timeout simply to gain the ability for end of session event
processing.

Even properly locked (and using CF 4.5) it's plenty fast enough if done
right.

Jim Davis

 -Original Message-
 From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 11:47 AM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML
 
 
 On Monday, Mar 24, 2003, at 02:57 US/Pacific, Matt Robertson wrote:
  Isn't it possible for CFMX to scale session vars across a 
 cluster now?
 
 Yes, since you can use J2EE session variables and leverage the 
 scalability of the underlying J2EE system.
 
  Did you hit on session management in a cluster?  If it were 
 me I'd go 
  with client vars, but I guess using either client or session is now 
  possible.
 
 Client variables are restricted to simple data types, session 
 variables 
 can be anything (including CFCs). That alone may be sufficient reason 
 to prefer session variables to client variables. Also, with client 
 variables, you are restricted to cookies (increasing download / get / 
 post time), registry (very bad!) or a database (serialization 
 overhead 
 and data access times). I can't see the appeal of client variables so 
 I'd be interested to hear from folks - like Matt - who use them and 
 prefer them to session variables.
 
 Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/
 
 If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
 -- Margaret Atwood
 
 
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RE: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-24 Thread Jim Davis
 -Original Message-
 From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 11:47 AM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML
 
 
 On Monday, Mar 24, 2003, at 02:57 US/Pacific, Matt Robertson wrote:
  Isn't it possible for CFMX to scale session vars across a 
 cluster now?
 
 Yes, since you can use J2EE session variables and leverage the 
 scalability of the underlying J2EE system.

So how does this actually work across a cluster?  I have to assume that
the data is still stored in server RAM (since we're not setting an
external storage area) so does every creation/update a session var send
out a message to all of the severs in the cluster?  Does one server poll
the others for data when a customer hits it?  Does it require the use of
CF Clustering or will it work using any clustering tech?

I know it's hard to believe - but I'm confused.  ;^)

Jim Davis


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Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-24 Thread Sean A Corfield
On Monday, Mar 24, 2003, at 18:58 US/Pacific, Jim Davis wrote:
 Yes, since you can use J2EE session variables and leverage the
 scalability of the underlying J2EE system.
 So how does this actually work across a cluster?

See my blog:

http://www.corfield.org/blog/archives/2003_01.html#55

and the immediately preceding few articles on how to set it all up!


Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood

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Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-24 Thread Sean A Corfield
On Monday, Mar 24, 2003, at 11:18 US/Pacific, Matt Robertson wrote:
[snip experience with session vars]

Hmm, sounds like you (and others) have been burned by pre-MX CF in this 
area... I didn't realize it was that bad...

 Question: CFMX uses J2EE's session variables.  I'm not up on this at
 all, but doesn't that mean I have to be using the much more expensive
 Enterprise for J2EE?

Depends what you want to do exactly. All versions of CF let you use 
J2EE Session Variables. Not all versions let you set up J2EE clustering 
and session replication. In fact, if you want the full monty, so to 
speak, you need CFMX for J2EE (so that you can leverage all the J2EE 
session stuff). However, even with CFMX Pro you get stable J2EE 
sessions using the built-in version of JRun.

Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood

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Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-24 Thread Sean A Corfield
On Monday, Mar 24, 2003, at 09:30 US/Pacific, Bryan Stevenson wrote:
 Could someone explain the benefit of holding CFCs in a session var?  
 Say in
 the case of security or identifying details about a logged in user.

Instead of having, say, half a dozen separate session variables holding 
information about a user, just have a CFC user.cfc and have it keep all 
that data internally (in the unnamed scope as instance data) and 
provide methods to manipulate it. It's really about the clarity of your 
model, keeping all your user state and user admin functions together in 
a CFC.

Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood

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RE: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-24 Thread Jim Davis
 -Original Message-
 From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 11:35 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML
 
 
 On Monday, Mar 24, 2003, at 18:58 US/Pacific, Jim Davis wrote:
  Yes, since you can use J2EE session variables and leverage the 
  scalability of the underlying J2EE system.
  So how does this actually work across a cluster?
 
 See my blog:
 
http://www.corfield.org/blog/archives/2003_01.html#55

and the immediately preceding few articles on how to set it all up!


So lemme check for understanding here:

Unless we specifially set up buddies sessions act just like they always
did.  (Server dies, session dies)

When you DO set up buddies ALL session traffic (updates, creates, etc)
are maintained on both/all buddies in REAL TIME.  So a server goes down,
another server has that data.

Meaning this isn't a performance solution (allowing any server in a
cluster to use any session from another) but a stability/reliabilty
solution (preventing angry people when servers go belly-up).

So in a normal, simple (ignorant) cluster network traffic between the
boxes is pretty minimal.  But in a session-sharing buddy cluster network
traffic can be very high between the servers.  I'm assuming that session
mirroring is working in real-time for the best possible disaster
response and not caching or otherwise delaying updates.  Right?

All this only works with J2EE sessions, not with regular old
CFTOKEN/CFID sessions.

Have I got it or did I miss the boat (again)?

Thanks in advance.  A damn fine Director of Architecture you are.

Jim Davis


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Re: Request for Review: Variables in CFML

2003-03-23 Thread Sean A Corfield
On Saturday, Mar 22, 2003, at 22:51 US/Pacific, Jim Davis wrote:
 I'm looking specifically for mistakes I may have made or language  
 that's
 confusing or otherwise craptastic.

A typo on this page:

http://www.depressedpress.com/DepressedPress/Content/ColdFusion/Guides/ 
Variables/ScopesOverview.cfm

You say arguments/this/function local were introduced in CF 5.0, you  
mean CF MX.

Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood

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