RE: SOT: Flash Remoting vs Web Services vs XML
I recommend Colin Moock's book'Flash Remoting' the definitive guide. I pretty much agree with everything Brook Davies said, except that I think Tom Muck wrote the O'Reilly Flash Remoting: The Definitive Guide. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ phone: 202-797-5496 fax: 202-797-5444 [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: SOT: Flash Remoting vs Web Services vs XML
Chris, There's a good (IHMO) ramp-up article in MXDJ (vol 2 issue 4) (http://sys-con.com/mx/ - I can't find the exact link to the article) ) entitled FlashFusion that describes how to consume webservices based around SOAP. A short comparison to Remoting is included as well. Sincerely, Andrew On Apr 13, 2004, at 12:06 PM, Chris Alvarado wrote:) Hello all, I am starting a new project that will require some fairly heavy Flash / CF integration including but not limited to: visual display of data stored in a database, insertion of data into a database supplied in Flash forms, a complete security model that requires not only authentication but user level access restrictions (role based model). I just ready the article on Macromedia DevNet about the various options for developing RIAs (Remoting, Web Services, XML) and am having a bit of a hard time deciding which route to pursue. Are there any RIA specific mailing lists etc that anyone can recommend. Additionally can anyone here point me in the right direction? I am a complete rookie when it comes to Flash but have nearly 7years of CF experience so the CF concepts are easy to grasp for me, im just sort of a bit inundated with the Flash portion. If anyone has any suggestions on where to get started they would be greatly appreciated. I picked up Macromedia Flash MX Profession 2004 for Server Geeks and it seems like an excellent book, but if anyone has any other suggestions that would fit well within the project described above I would really appreciate it. Thanks everyone, Looking forward to seeing any feedback. -chris.alvarado [ application developer ] 4 Guys Interactive, Inc. 281.807.4344 x1716 _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: SOT: Flash Remoting vs Web Services vs XML
Chris, Theres a great (IHMO) ramp-up article in MXDJ (vol 2 issue 4) (http://sys-con.com/mx/ - I cant find the exact link to the article)entitled FlashFusion that describes how to consume webservices based around SOAP. A short comparison to Remoting is included as well. Sincerely, Andrew [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: SOT: Flash Remoting vs Web Services vs XML
Have you considered Flex (or as I like to call it FlexFlash) In my very limited experience Flex programming of RIAs is much easier than Flash programming unless you are into heavy animation, visual effects, etc. You can get all you need for development with the Flex evaluation CD. Then you can install flex to run in conjunction with CFMX -- which is the best of both worlds (server-side power and client-side RIA) The big barrier may be the price of Flex but I understand that this may be negotiable. Your timeframe may also be a consideration -- there have been hints that the next release of CFMX (BlackGuard, BlackHart, BlackMagic, BlackBeauty, BlackStone, whatever) will include Flex capabilities. The way it(current CFMX Flex) appears to work is this: 1) You create CF templates with imbedded (or included) Flex source containing special XML (MXXML) and ActionScript (similar to _javascript_). The CF template gets compiled to Java Byte code The Flash portion of the template gets compiled to a SWF Both are served to the requestor; Here are the headers for a very simple CFMX Flex program (a Menu Tree) GET /cfusion/flex/CFFlexTree.cfm HTTP/1.1 200 1753 GET /cfusion/flex/CFFlexTree.cfm HTTP/1.1 200 1753 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 1244 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 1244 GET /cfusion/flex-internal/history/history.html HTTP/1.1 200 1257 GET /cfusion/flex-internal/history/history.html HTTP/1.1 200 1257 GET /cfusion/Flex/244813253.mxml.swf HTTP/1.1 200 116528 GET /cfusion/Flex/244813253.mxml.swf HTTP/1.1 200 116528 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 2656 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 2656 It appears as if there are separate requests generated for: 1) the cf template 2) flex js 3) flex history 4) a swf containing the Flex portion of the CF template (mxml.swf) 5) a generic swf This is quite a fewf connections for a simple program, but I am told that as complexity increases, there should be fewer connections than with a typical html page. FlexFlash and Flash remoting tend to change the way you program -- not always for the better 1) rather then populate the initial page with initial data as with CF/HTML it is cleaner to do the following with FR: --download the RIA client --the client, when loaded, makes the request for initial data. 2) from a programming standpoint it is easy to ignore the overhead of exchanging large XML packets between host and client 3) if you give a lot of capability to the client (updating records on the client with out contacting the host) you can add orders of magnitude of complexity to the host (lockouts, deadlocks, synchronization) and to the RIA client -- what happens if the browser crashes after you've made 20 minutes of updates? 4) Multiple browser windows with a Flash RIA clients, each consume client resources even when inactive. They compete with each other and other desktop apps. So, everything you've learned with CF still applies -- Flash can improve the UI, and the UE (User Experience)-- but, better to be a little skeptical HTH Dick On Apr 13, 2004, at 12:06 PM, Chris Alvarado wrote:) Hello all, I am starting a new project that will require some fairly heavy Flash / CF integration including but not limited to: visual display of data stored in a database, insertion of data into a database supplied in Flash forms, a complete security model that requires not only authentication but user level access restrictions (role based model). I just ready the article on Macromedia DevNet about the various options for developing RIAs (Remoting, Web Services, XML) and am having a bit of a hard time deciding which route to pursue. Are there any RIA specific mailing lists etc that anyone can recommend. Additionally can anyone here point me in the right direction? I am a complete rookie when it comes to Flash but have nearly 7years of CF experience so the CF concepts are easy to grasp for me, im just sort of a bit inundated with the Flash portion. If anyone has any suggestions on where to get started they would be greatly appreciated. I picked up Macromedia Flash MX Profession 2004 for Server Geeks and it seems like an excellent book, but if anyone has any other suggestions that would fit well within the project described above I would really appreciate it. Thanks everyone, Looking forward to seeing any feedback. -chris.alvarado [ application developer ] 4 Guys Interactive, Inc. 281.807.4344 x1716 [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: SOT: Flash Remoting vs Web Services vs XML
I don't really know much about Flex other than the few articles I have read and the little bit of sample code I have seen. The problems I have with going the Flex route are as follows: 1) this project is extremely time sensitive. - thus the web service route seems more feasible. I already know how to program a web service using CF (CFCs) and consuming a web service with Flash is supposed to be pretty straight forward. Learning Flex (the way I take it) and integrating CF would be quite a bit more time consuming than simply using AS to handle data returned by CF. 2) the interfaces that the design team has come up with for this project are VERY detailed and do have quite a bit of animation I guess the biggest challenge at the moment is making these decisions. At the moment the choice seems pretty simple as I stated above. Web Services + Flash, as I already know how to develop Web Services so all that would be needed it so learn how to consume said web services with Flash. However, the last thing I want to do is head down the wrong path. Id like to explore all the options out there and I agree, Flex seems like a very viable option if this application had been designed to harness it from the get go. -chris.alvarado [ application developer ] 4 Guys Interactive, Inc. 281.807.4344 x1716 _ From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 3:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Flash Remoting vs Web Services vs XML Have you considered Flex (or as I like to call it FlexFlash) In my very limited experience Flex programming of RIAs is much easier than Flash programming unless you are into heavy animation, visual effects, etc. You can get all you need for development with the Flex evaluation CD. Then you can install flex to run in conjunction with CFMX -- which is the best of both worlds (server-side power and client-side RIA) The big barrier may be the price of Flex but I understand that this may be negotiable. Your timeframe may also be a consideration -- there have been hints that the next release of CFMX (BlackGuard, BlackHart, BlackMagic, BlackBeauty, BlackStone, whatever) will include Flex capabilities. The way it(current CFMX Flex) appears to work is this: 1) You create CF templates with imbedded (or included) Flex source containing special XML (MXXML) and ActionScript (similar to _javascript_). The CF template gets compiled to Java Byte code The Flash portion of the template gets compiled to a SWF Both are served to the requestor; Here are the headers for a very simple CFMX Flex program (a Menu Tree) GET /cfusion/flex/CFFlexTree.cfm HTTP/1.1 200 1753 GET /cfusion/flex/CFFlexTree.cfm HTTP/1.1 200 1753 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 1244 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 1244 GET /cfusion/flex-internal/history/history.html HTTP/1.1 200 1257 GET /cfusion/flex-internal/history/history.html HTTP/1.1 200 1257 GET /cfusion/Flex/244813253.mxml.swf HTTP/1.1 200 116528 GET /cfusion/Flex/244813253.mxml.swf HTTP/1.1 200 116528 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 2656 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 2656 It appears as if there are separate requests generated for: 1) the cf template 2) flex js 3) flex history 4) a swf containing the Flex portion of the CF template (mxml.swf) 5) a generic swf This is quite a fewf connections for a simple program, but I am told that as complexity increases, there should be fewer connections than with a typical html page. FlexFlash and Flash remoting tend to change the way you program -- not always for the better 1) rather then populate the initial page with initial data as with CF/HTML it is cleaner to do the following with FR: --download the RIA client --the client, when loaded, makes the request for initial data. 2) from a programming standpoint it is easy to ignore the overhead of exchanging large XML packets between host and client 3) if you give a lot of capability to the client (updating records on the client with out contacting the host) you can add orders of magnitude of complexity to the host (lockouts, deadlocks, synchronization) and to the RIA client -- what happens if the browser crashes after you've made 20 minutes of updates? 4) Multiple browser windows with a Flash RIA clients, each consume client resources even when inactive. They compete with each other and other desktop apps. So, everything you've learned with CF still applies -- Flash can improve the UI, and the UE (User Experience)-- but, better to be a little skeptical HTH Dick On Apr 13, 2004, at 12:06 PM, Chris Alvarado wrote:) Hello all, I am starting a new project that will require some fairly heavy Flash / CF integration including but not limited to: visual display of data stored in a database, insertion of data into a database supplied in Flash forms, a complete security model that requires not only authentication
Re: SOT: Flash Remoting vs Web Services vs XML
On Apr 13, 2004, at 1:46 PM, Chris Alvarado wrote: I don't really know much about Flex other than the few articles I have read and the little bit of sample code I have seen. The problems I have with going the Flex route are as follows: 1) this project is extremely time sensitive. - thus the web service route seems more feasible. I already know how to program a web service using CF (CFCs) and consuming a web service with Flash is supposed to be pretty straight forward. Learning Flex (the way I take it) and integrating CF would be quite a bit more time consuming than simply using AS to handle data returned by CF. You can do it almost exactly the same with FlexFlash -- you have action script and remoting But, on a time sensitive project, you are wise to go with familiar, established approaches -- rather than trying to learn implement a release 1.0 product. 2) the interfaces that the design team has come up with for this project are VERY detailed and do have quite a bit of animation Flash may be preferable for this reason too! I guess the biggest challenge at the moment is making these decisions. At the moment the choice seems pretty simple as I stated above. Web Services + Flash, as I already know how to develop Web Services so all that would be needed it so learn how to consume said web services with Flash. However, the last thing I want to do is head down the wrong path. Id like to explore all the options out there and I agree, Flex seems like a very viable option if this application had been designed to harness it from the get go. It does sound as if web services are in order for this project, at this time. You should be able to get all you need for interfacing Flash with web services from Chapter 9 of the server geek book. At some later time, when the pressure's off, you may wish to investigate the alternative of Flash Remoting -- binary data interchange rather than XML -- possible better performance lower bandwidth. HTH Dick -chris.alvarado [ application developer ] 4 Guys Interactive, Inc. 281.807.4344 x1716 _ From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 3:06 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: SOT: Flash Remoting vs Web Services vs XML Have you considered Flex (or as I like to call it FlexFlash) In my very limited experience Flex programming of RIAs is much easier than Flash programming unless you are into heavy animation, visual effects, etc. You can get all you need for development with the Flex evaluation CD. Then you can install flex to run in conjunction with CFMX -- which is the best of both worlds (server-side power and client-side RIA) The big barrier may be the price of Flex but I understand that this may be negotiable. Your timeframe may also be a consideration -- there have been hints that the next release of CFMX (BlackGuard, BlackHart, BlackMagic, BlackBeauty, BlackStone, whatever) will include Flex capabilities. The way it (current CFMX Flex) appears to work is this: 1) You create CF templates with imbedded (or included) Flex source containing special XML (MXXML) and ActionScript (similar to _javascript_). The CF template gets compiled to Java Byte code The Flash portion of the template gets compiled to a SWF Both are served to the requestor; Here are the headers for a very simple CFMX Flex program (a Menu Tree) GET /cfusion/flex/CFFlexTree.cfm HTTP/1.1 200 1753 GET /cfusion/flex/CFFlexTree.cfm HTTP/1.1 200 1753 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 1244 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 1244 GET /cfusion/flex-internal/history/history.html HTTP/1.1 200 1257 GET /cfusion/flex-internal/history/history.html HTTP/1.1 200 1257 GET /cfusion/Flex/244813253.mxml.swf HTTP/1.1 200 116528 GET /cfusion/Flex/244813253.mxml.swf HTTP/1.1 200 116528 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 2656 GET /cfusion/flex-internal?action="" HTTP/1.1 200 2656 It appears as if there are separate requests generated for: 1) the cf template 2) flex js 3) flex history 4) a swf containing the Flex portion of the CF template (mxml.swf) 5) a generic swf This is quite a fewf connections for a simple program, but I am told that as complexity increases, there should be fewer connections than with a typical html page. FlexFlash and Flash remoting tend to change the way you program -- not always for the better 1) rather then populate the initial page with initial data as with CF/HTML it is cleaner to do the following with FR: --download the RIA client --the client, when loaded, makes the request for initial data. 2) from a programming standpoint it is easy to ignore the overhead of exchanging large XML packets between host and client 3) if you give a lot of capability to the client (updating records on the client with out contacting the host) you can add orders of magnitude of complexity to the host (lockouts, deadlocks, synchronizatio
Re: SOT: Flash Remoting vs Web Services vs XML
Are you asking how the above options compare? If so, then a Google search on term 'flash remoting' 'web services' pulls up existing assets on choosing between server-specific binary and server-independent XML/SOAP. (There are other discussions, too, but they're mixed in with other hits on those two query phrases.) ... or is it that you already read Steven Webster's article at DevNet (the top hit on the above term), and have an additional question? or...? ...am having a bit of a hard time deciding which route to pursue Well, it's trite of me, but one reliable approach is to keep things as simple as possible to solve the problem. You're already using ColdFusion so I'm assuming you can produce web services for consumption. Is there a reason why you couldn't go this way, and would instead be considering the tighter connectivity of the remoting approach...? (There are RIA mailing lists out there, but they tend to be focused on user experience rather than plumbing type, but I may not yet understand what is being sought.) Hmm, or maybe it's What's an easy way to approach creating data-driven UIs in the Macromedia Flash authoring environment? If so, then there's a portal which seems tuned to this need: http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/flash/data_integration.html Or...? jd John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco (Best to reply on-list, to avoid my mighty spam filters!) Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ Column: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/ Technical daily diary: http://www.macromedia.com/go/blog_jd [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: SOT: Flash Remoting vs Web Services vs XML
I tend to like Flash Remoting and I think it has been proven to be a bit faster than consuming web services. And since the code in the CFC is the same for flash remoting as it is for web service's you should be cool on the CFMX side of things. Flash works really nicely with CFMX and remoting is super fast. The net connection debugger is a great tool for seeing what is going back and forth to the server. I recommend Colin Moock's book'Flash Remoting' the definitive guide. I just moved from CFMX programming only to actionscript 2.0 - it was a huge shock to the system since I hadn't done much scripting before and did not understand OOP. But after struggling for a while (especially with the scope chain) I really like the way remoting and CFMX work together. Combine that with databinding and dataholders, its pretty cool. You should search the archives of the flash coders and/or flashnewbies lists (http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/ - maybe subscribe) to see if the answer to this has been covered. There was also an article on MM specifically about when to use what technology (remoting,web services, xml). Brook At 03:14 PM 4/13/2004, you wrote: Are you asking how the above options compare? If so, then a Google search on term 'flash remoting' 'web services' pulls up existing assets on choosing between server-specific binary and server-independent XML/SOAP. (There are other discussions, too, but they're mixed in with other hits on those two query phrases.) ... or is it that you already read Steven Webster's article at DevNet (the top hit on the above term), and have an additional question? or...? ...am having a bit of a hard time deciding which route to pursue Well, it's trite of me, but one reliable approach is to keep things as simple as possible to solve the problem. You're already using ColdFusion so I'm assuming you can produce web services for consumption. Is there a reason why you couldn't go this way, and would instead be considering the tighter connectivity of the remoting approach...? (There are RIA mailing lists out there, but they tend to be focused on user experience rather than plumbing type, but I may not yet understand what is being sought.) Hmm, or maybe it's What's an easy way to approach creating data-driven UIs in the Macromedia Flash authoring environment? If so, then there's a portal which seems tuned to this need: http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/flash/data_integration.html Or...? jd John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco (Best to reply on-list, to avoid my mighty spam filters!) Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ Column: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/ Technical daily diary: http://www.macromedia.com/go/blog_jd -- [http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=t:4Todays Threads] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:159824This Message] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4Subscription] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=905.825.4Fast Unsubscribe] [http://www.houseoffusion.com/signin/User Settings] -- http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=40 [] [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
