RE: Safari Issues
> A lot of the benefits of web standards will only be available in the future, > so they offer little current benefit. However, if you're building a web > application that you expect will be around for three to five years, it makes > sense to build it in such a way that you won't have to replace things > unnecessarily over the lifespan of that application. Though I agree in principle, this hasn't proved an issue (yet). Most public Web sites I've worked on get a major look-and-feel overhaul (for marketing purposes if nothing else) every one to two years. There simply isn't any longevity as far as the public sites go. Designing intranets for corporate customers is a different story. They pick a version of Internet Explorer and use that for 4 years. So, we design to that version, using every proprietary trick Internet Explorer provides to provide the best experience, usability wise, that we can. If they chose Mozilla, we'd use every proprietary Mozilla trick. Some would argue about my definition of proprietary since Mozilla's open source. Nevertheless, Mozilla offers a lot of technologies that aren't Web standards (though they may utilize them). Regardless, corporations tend to pick one thing and stick with it for a long time. If they do upgrade, they generally pick the path of least resistance (i.e. the latest version of Internet Explorer) and Microsoft tends to be pretty good about backward compatibility (hence, the tangled mess that many of the applications and APIs are in). -ben [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Safari Issues
That is a great quote from Shaw. Your def right being that they are 'webstandards.org', I'm just not sure who would/should follow their lead. I once took over a contract where the client's site was having horrible HTML display issues across the browsers. When the client contacted noted these issues to the original vendor, the vendor responded "File a bug report with MS, it's not our problem. If everyone would just email Bill Gates and complain, your website would work across browsers". Needless to say that vendor was fired. But rather than web standards, why not limit the techniques or features if they are not cross browser compliant. Rather than blindly use things that won't work, why not boycott them. I dunno, as a mid 90s web developer I've always assumed it part of my job to ensure cross browser compatibility. This whole web standards thing just seems like a bunch of lazy developers to me. Adam Wayne Lehman Web Systems Developer Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Distance Education Division -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 10:38 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Safari Issues > As I fully agree with the concept of web standards, I see it > very much like world peace. It's just a concept not a reality. > I think its best not to code for browsers _or_ web standards, > but better to code for the users. For most websites, I'd probably agree with you, but if someone doesn't push for standards-based HTML, we'll be stuck with the status quo, which really sucks. "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw > Having a site with un-selectable text may be traced back to an > issue with how IE renders HTML, but I feel it's irresponsible > that the developers of webstandards.org would knowingly put > their ideals before the user experience. Normally, I would agree with you, but after all, this is "webstandards.org". Their entire reason for being is ... web standards! If they were to make compromises to deal with IE deficiencies, that wouldn't say very much for them, now would it? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Safari Issues
> I think the point I'm trying to make is, support what makes > sense to support. By and large, Web standards are difficult > to support while offering our customers little benefit. > Browser sniffing by user-agent is easy. If it solves a problem, > then use it. A lot of the benefits of web standards will only be available in the future, so they offer little current benefit. However, if you're building a web application that you expect will be around for three to five years, it makes sense to build it in such a way that you won't have to replace things unnecessarily over the lifespan of that application. To me, that's why (and when) it makes sense to emphasize web standards whenever possible. Yes, XHTML is harder than HTML, but not much, and there'll probably be lots of XHTML renderers out there in a year or so. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Safari Issues
> As I fully agree with the concept of web standards, I see it > very much like world peace. It's just a concept not a reality. > I think its best not to code for browsers _or_ web standards, > but better to code for the users. For most websites, I'd probably agree with you, but if someone doesn't push for standards-based HTML, we'll be stuck with the status quo, which really sucks. "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw > Having a site with un-selectable text may be traced back to an > issue with how IE renders HTML, but I feel it's irresponsible > that the developers of webstandards.org would knowingly put > their ideals before the user experience. Normally, I would agree with you, but after all, this is "webstandards.org". Their entire reason for being is ... web standards! If they were to make compromises to deal with IE deficiencies, that wouldn't say very much for them, now would it? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Safari Issues
As I fully agree with the concept of web standards, I see it very much like world peace. It's just a concept not a reality. I think its best not to code for browsers _or_ web standards, but better to code for the users. Having a site with un-selectable text may be traced back to an issue with how IE renders HTML, but I feel it's irresponsible that the developers of webstandards.org would knowingly put their ideals before the user experience. Adam Wayne Lehman Web Systems Developer Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Distance Education Division -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 4:37 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Safari Issues Adam Wayne Lehman wrote: > Aside from the title of that two paragraph article. What is that > supposed to mean? It is supposed to mean that you shouldn't code for the idiosyncracies of a browser, but for standards. HTML is a 2 way contract: browsers may expect a website to deliver valid HTML, website builders may expect a browser to understand valid HTML. > If I wrote an article on that site it would be titled 'Dear Web > Standards: Not Being Able To Select Text Is Retarded' > > (as I can't seem to be able to select text in IE, but can in Safari) You need to file a bug with Microsoft. Good luck ;-) Jochem -- Who needs virtual reality if you can just dream? - Loesje _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Safari Issues
Adam Wayne Lehman wrote: > Aside from the title of that two paragraph article. What is that > supposed to mean? It is supposed to mean that you shouldn't code for the idiosyncracies of a browser, but for standards. HTML is a 2 way contract: browsers may expect a website to deliver valid HTML, website builders may expect a browser to understand valid HTML. > If I wrote an article on that site it would be titled 'Dear Web > Standards: Not Being Able To Select Text Is Retarded' > > (as I can't seem to be able to select text in IE, but can in Safari) You need to file a bug with Microsoft. Good luck ;-) Jochem -- Who needs virtual reality if you can just dream? - Loesje [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Safari Issues
Aside from the title of that two paragraph article. What is that supposed to mean? If I wrote an article on that site it would be titled 'Dear Web Standards: Not Being Able To Select Text Is Retarded' (as I can't seem to be able to select text in IE, but can in Safari) Adam Wayne Lehman Web Systems Developer Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Distance Education Division -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 3:50 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Safari Issues Adam Wayne Lehman wrote: > > I'm sure you have already done this, but just in case: Make sure to > check your browser sniffing code to allow for Safari. "Dear Web Developers: Browser Sniffing is Stupid" http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2002_12.html#a000123 Jochem -- Who needs virtual reality if you can just dream? - Loesje _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Safari Issues
Adam Wayne Lehman wrote: > > I'm sure you have already done this, but just in case: Make sure to > check your browser sniffing code to allow for Safari. "Dear Web Developers: Browser Sniffing is Stupid" http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2002_12.html#a000123 Jochem -- Who needs virtual reality if you can just dream? - Loesje [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Safari Issues
Bruce, I'm sure you have already done this, but just in case: Make sure to check your browser sniffing code to allow for Safari. Previously I only determined the difference between IE and Netscape by searching for 'MSIE' in the agent. Worked great when there were only two stipulations. On the CF side I use something like this: CGI.HTTP_USER_AGENT)> Adam Wayne Lehman Web Systems Developer Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Distance Education Division -Original Message- From: Bruce Sorge [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 3:02 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Safari Issues They are using the latest. I have confirmed that. _ From: David Fafard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:48 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Safari Issues Make sure it's the lastest build of Safari. Safari 1.1 ??? If memory serves me, I recall an issue with _javascript_ values not being passed with older versions. HTH, Dave - Original Message - From: Bruce Sorge To: CF-Talk Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 2:38 PM Subject: RE: Safari Issues Since I cannot use session or client variables on this site (that is a whole other discussion), I have to use a frame set, and then I use form and/or URL variables for "session" state. The biggest problem is that some form variables or URL variables are not being passed. At first I thought that maybe the users were disabling JS, which I am using for form field validation, but then I remember that I have other checks in the system to trap these errors for user who disabled JS. Besides, one part that I have on the site uses the two select related tags, so they have to enable JS to make that work or they will never be able to register. So I am at a loss as to what could be causing these issues. At first I was not concerned, but since M$ has announced there will be no new upgrades to the MAC version of IE, and Apple has come out with Safari, it is a big enough problem that I have to start being concerned. Thanks, Bruce _ From: Adam Wayne Lehman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:03 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Safari Issues A good rule of thumb I've found is that Safari closely resembles IE's _javascript_/DOM. If it works on IE, it usually works on safari. What type of errors are you getting from Safari clients? Adam Wayne Lehman Web Systems Developer Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Distance Education Division -Original Message- From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:34 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Safari Issues The only things I've seen are a few CSS quirks and the obvious lack of ActiveX capability. I haven't spent a whole lot of time at it though. -Kevin - Original Message - From: "Bruce Sorge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:05 PM Subject: Safari Issues > Has anyone had any problems with their sites from users that are using the > Safari browser? I am getting several errors a day from Safari users, but > when I try to duplicate them with a powerbook I have access to, I cannot get > them to occur. Is there anything different about that browser than IE and > Netscape? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bruce > > > _ _ _ _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Safari Issues
They are using the latest. I have confirmed that. _ From: David Fafard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:48 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Safari Issues Make sure it's the lastest build of Safari. Safari 1.1 ??? If memory serves me, I recall an issue with _javascript_ values not being passed with older versions. HTH, Dave - Original Message - From: Bruce Sorge To: CF-Talk Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 2:38 PM Subject: RE: Safari Issues Since I cannot use session or client variables on this site (that is a whole other discussion), I have to use a frame set, and then I use form and/or URL variables for "session" state. The biggest problem is that some form variables or URL variables are not being passed. At first I thought that maybe the users were disabling JS, which I am using for form field validation, but then I remember that I have other checks in the system to trap these errors for user who disabled JS. Besides, one part that I have on the site uses the two select related tags, so they have to enable JS to make that work or they will never be able to register. So I am at a loss as to what could be causing these issues. At first I was not concerned, but since M$ has announced there will be no new upgrades to the MAC version of IE, and Apple has come out with Safari, it is a big enough problem that I have to start being concerned. Thanks, Bruce _ From: Adam Wayne Lehman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:03 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Safari Issues A good rule of thumb I've found is that Safari closely resembles IE's _javascript_/DOM. If it works on IE, it usually works on safari. What type of errors are you getting from Safari clients? Adam Wayne Lehman Web Systems Developer Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Distance Education Division -Original Message- From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:34 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Safari Issues The only things I've seen are a few CSS quirks and the obvious lack of ActiveX capability. I haven't spent a whole lot of time at it though. -Kevin - Original Message - From: "Bruce Sorge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:05 PM Subject: Safari Issues > Has anyone had any problems with their sites from users that are using the > Safari browser? I am getting several errors a day from Safari users, but > when I try to duplicate them with a powerbook I have access to, I cannot get > them to occur. Is there anything different about that browser than IE and > Netscape? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bruce > > > _ _ _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Safari Issues
Make sure it's the lastest build of Safari. Safari 1.1 ??? If memory serves me, I recall an issue with _javascript_ values not being passed with older versions. HTH, Dave - Original Message - From: Bruce Sorge To: CF-Talk Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 2:38 PM Subject: RE: Safari Issues Since I cannot use session or client variables on this site (that is a whole other discussion), I have to use a frame set, and then I use form and/or URL variables for "session" state. The biggest problem is that some form variables or URL variables are not being passed. At first I thought that maybe the users were disabling JS, which I am using for form field validation, but then I remember that I have other checks in the system to trap these errors for user who disabled JS. Besides, one part that I have on the site uses the two select related tags, so they have to enable JS to make that work or they will never be able to register. So I am at a loss as to what could be causing these issues. At first I was not concerned, but since M$ has announced there will be no new upgrades to the MAC version of IE, and Apple has come out with Safari, it is a big enough problem that I have to start being concerned. Thanks, Bruce _ From: Adam Wayne Lehman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:03 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Safari Issues A good rule of thumb I've found is that Safari closely resembles IE's _javascript_/DOM. If it works on IE, it usually works on safari. What type of errors are you getting from Safari clients? Adam Wayne Lehman Web Systems Developer Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Distance Education Division -Original Message- From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:34 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Safari Issues The only things I've seen are a few CSS quirks and the obvious lack of ActiveX capability. I haven't spent a whole lot of time at it though. -Kevin - Original Message - From: "Bruce Sorge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:05 PM Subject: Safari Issues > Has anyone had any problems with their sites from users that are using the > Safari browser? I am getting several errors a day from Safari users, but > when I try to duplicate them with a powerbook I have access to, I cannot get > them to occur. Is there anything different about that browser than IE and > Netscape? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bruce > > > _ _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Safari Issues
I am not doing session or client variables, so cookies are not an issue for this particular app, _ From: Venable, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:56 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Safari Issues I've had some cookie problems where it tells me cookies aren't enabled, even though they are. If I clear the cookies, it works fine. Haven't figured out if you can up the amount of cookie storage yet. John Venable -Original Message- From: Bruce Sorge [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Safari Issues Has anyone had any problems with their sites from users that are using the Safari browser? I am getting several errors a day from Safari users, but when I try to duplicate them with a powerbook I have access to, I cannot get them to occur. Is there anything different about that browser than IE and Netscape? Thanks, Bruce _ _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Safari Issues
Since I cannot use session or client variables on this site (that is a whole other discussion), I have to use a frame set, and then I use form and/or URL variables for "session" state. The biggest problem is that some form variables or URL variables are not being passed. At first I thought that maybe the users were disabling JS, which I am using for form field validation, but then I remember that I have other checks in the system to trap these errors for user who disabled JS. Besides, one part that I have on the site uses the two select related tags, so they have to enable JS to make that work or they will never be able to register. So I am at a loss as to what could be causing these issues. At first I was not concerned, but since M$ has announced there will be no new upgrades to the MAC version of IE, and Apple has come out with Safari, it is a big enough problem that I have to start being concerned. Thanks, Bruce _ From: Adam Wayne Lehman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:03 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Safari Issues A good rule of thumb I've found is that Safari closely resembles IE's _javascript_/DOM. If it works on IE, it usually works on safari. What type of errors are you getting from Safari clients? Adam Wayne Lehman Web Systems Developer Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Distance Education Division -Original Message- From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:34 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Safari Issues The only things I've seen are a few CSS quirks and the obvious lack of ActiveX capability. I haven't spent a whole lot of time at it though. -Kevin - Original Message - From: "Bruce Sorge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:05 PM Subject: Safari Issues > Has anyone had any problems with their sites from users that are using the > Safari browser? I am getting several errors a day from Safari users, but > when I try to duplicate them with a powerbook I have access to, I cannot get > them to occur. Is there anything different about that browser than IE and > Netscape? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bruce > > > _ _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Safari Issues
A good rule of thumb I've found is that Safari closely resembles IE's _javascript_/DOM. If it works on IE, it usually works on safari. What type of errors are you getting from Safari clients? Adam Wayne Lehman Web Systems Developer Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Distance Education Division -Original Message- From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:34 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Safari Issues The only things I've seen are a few CSS quirks and the obvious lack of ActiveX capability. I haven't spent a whole lot of time at it though. -Kevin - Original Message - From: "Bruce Sorge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:05 PM Subject: Safari Issues > Has anyone had any problems with their sites from users that are using the > Safari browser? I am getting several errors a day from Safari users, but > when I try to duplicate them with a powerbook I have access to, I cannot get > them to occur. Is there anything different about that browser than IE and > Netscape? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bruce > > > _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
RE: Safari Issues
I've had some cookie problems where it tells me cookies aren't enabled, even though they are. If I clear the cookies, it works fine. Haven't figured out if you can up the amount of cookie storage yet. John Venable -Original Message- From: Bruce Sorge [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 1:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Safari Issues Has anyone had any problems with their sites from users that are using the Safari browser? I am getting several errors a day from Safari users, but when I try to duplicate them with a powerbook I have access to, I cannot get them to occur. Is there anything different about that browser than IE and Netscape? Thanks, Bruce _ [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
Re: Safari Issues
The only things I've seen are a few CSS quirks and the obvious lack of ActiveX capability. I haven't spent a whole lot of time at it though. -Kevin - Original Message - From: "Bruce Sorge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:05 PM Subject: Safari Issues > Has anyone had any problems with their sites from users that are using the > Safari browser? I am getting several errors a day from Safari users, but > when I try to duplicate them with a powerbook I have access to, I cannot get > them to occur. Is there anything different about that browser than IE and > Netscape? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bruce > > > [Todays Threads] [This Message] [Subscription] [Fast Unsubscribe] [User Settings]
