Re: Ajax
Michael, I think the idea of a new list on Ajax is a good one. I've become quite interested in it lately, especially after seeing what people are doing with Google maps. http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/gmap2_flash.html I've seen quite a few mentions of Neuromancer. Is Neuromancer open source? I don't see it on CFOpen and unfortunately the link you provided doesn't work. Is there an alternative place it can be downloaded? I'd like to experiment with CF and Ajax but don't want to reinvent the wheel if an API for CF'ers has already been written. Rick Mason On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:38:35 -0500, Michael Dinowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > With the current interest in Ajax (Asynchronous Javascript + XML), I've > decided to open up a new list dedicated to it. This list should allow those > interested in the technology to discuss it outside of ColdFusion or any > specific platform. The list can be found here: > > http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/47 > > and a good article on the technology can be found here: > > http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000385.php > > some other links of interest on Ajax: > > http://www.rohanclan.com/products/neuromancer/index.cfm > http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/399.cfm > http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/messages.cfm/forumid:4/threadid:38991 > http://www.robrohan.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=101ABA29-B8B9-B9A5-875B12724E6716C8 > > ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199099 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
The correct URL for neuromancer is: http://www.robrohan.com/projects/neuromancer/index.cfm I believe it is open source, but you'd need to get confirmation from Rob on that. Spike Rick Mason wrote: > Michael, > > I think the idea of a new list on Ajax is a good one. I've become > quite interested in it lately, especially after seeing what people are > doing with Google maps. > > http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/gmap2_flash.html > > I've seen quite a few mentions of Neuromancer. Is Neuromancer open > source? I don't see it on CFOpen and unfortunately the link you > provided doesn't work. Is there an alternative place it can be > downloaded? > > I'd like to experiment with CF and Ajax but don't want to reinvent the > wheel if an API for CF'ers has already been written. > > > Rick Mason > > > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:38:35 -0500, Michael Dinowitz > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>With the current interest in Ajax (Asynchronous Javascript + XML), I've >>decided to open up a new list dedicated to it. This list should allow those >>interested in the technology to discuss it outside of ColdFusion or any >>specific platform. The list can be found here: >> >>http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/47 >> >>and a good article on the technology can be found here: >> >>http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000385.php >> >>some other links of interest on Ajax: >> >>http://www.rohanclan.com/products/neuromancer/index.cfm >>http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/399.cfm >>http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/messages.cfm/forumid:4/threadid:38991 >>http://www.robrohan.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=101ABA29-B8B9-B9A5-875B12724E6716C8 >> >> > > > ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199100 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Other projects worth a check: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sarissa/ http://xmljs.sourceforge.net/index.html Massimo Foti DW tools: http://www.massimocorner.com CF tools: http://www.olimpo.ch/tmt/ ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199101 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
Just a sidenote to the Ajax story: There isn't something like an API. You can use reusable components, but people, please keep in mind that true Ajax applications requires quite some experience in coding domscript. Ajax development is work for experts. Real Ajax applications are far from easy. There are toolkits available, like www.backstream.nl offers. These kits have been created by experts, and these kits have years of development time in it. The time of simple dynamicdrive scripting is over. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199105 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
I meant www.backbase.com btw.. my cats wrote the previous message Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199110 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
Dead link my friend Martin Parry Macromedia Certified Developer http://www.BeetrootStreet.co.uk -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 17 March 2005 15:06 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Ajax Real Ajax applications are far from easy. There are toolkits available, like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.backstream.nl <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< offers. These kits have been created by experts, and these kits have years of development time in it. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199109 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:14:17 +0100, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I meant www.backbase.com btw.. my cats wrote the previous message mine do that *all the time* -- mac jordan home: www.kestrel.org work: www.webhorus.net them: www.jordan-cats.org <<< ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199112 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Yes Neuromancer is open source, and it is quite a bit more powerful than ajax I think especially with coldfusion - but ajax is by google so ... :-/ I had the original computer it was on crash and burn (windows) so I am getting it setup in it's new home (linux :-D). I lost the chat demo in the crash - if anyone has a copy laying around please send it to me. You can use Neruomancer just like ajax, and it can do more too (unmarshal a cfc into a javascript object and is able to pass cf structs to and from js via web services). It works on cfmx and blue dragon (and theoretically with .net and java axis) Anyway... yadda yadda... I'll plan on doing a long blog on its usage and features soon, but with ajax on the scene, people will probably lean towards that because it's from google. (cept for the commercial sites that are already using Neuromancer) Neuromancer was/is written by me, Dick Applebaum, and Barney Boisvert If you have any questions about it feel free to email me Cheers, Rob On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:57:28 -0800, Spike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The correct URL for neuromancer is: > > http://www.robrohan.com/projects/neuromancer/index.cfm > > I believe it is open source, but you'd need to get confirmation from Rob > on that. > > Spike > > Rick Mason wrote: > > Michael, > > > > I think the idea of a new list on Ajax is a good one. I've become > > quite interested in it lately, especially after seeing what people are > > doing with Google maps. > > > > http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/gmap2_flash.html > > > > I've seen quite a few mentions of Neuromancer. Is Neuromancer open > > source? I don't see it on CFOpen and unfortunately the link you > > provided doesn't work. Is there an alternative place it can be > > downloaded? > > > > I'd like to experiment with CF and Ajax but don't want to reinvent the > > wheel if an API for CF'ers has already been written. > > > > > > Rick Mason > > > > > > > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:38:35 -0500, Michael Dinowitz > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>With the current interest in Ajax (Asynchronous Javascript + XML), I've > >>decided to open up a new list dedicated to it. This list should allow those > >>interested in the technology to discuss it outside of ColdFusion or any > >>specific platform. The list can be found here: > >> > >>http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/47 > >> > >>and a good article on the technology can be found here: > >> > >>http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000385.php > >> > >>some other links of interest on Ajax: > >> > >>http://www.rohanclan.com/products/neuromancer/index.cfm > >>http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/399.cfm > >>http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/messages.cfm/forumid:4/threadid:38991 > >>http://www.robrohan.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=101ABA29-B8B9-B9A5-875B12724E6716C8 > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199117 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
Rob, Ajax isn't from Google. It is a name "thought up" by someone from Adaptive Path which probably did it because of personal PR stunt, but the name eventually floated around the blogs as the new handle for the combination of xhtml + css + xmlhttprequest. It is easier to say Ajax, than Single Paged Interface, XmlHttpRequest, Dynamic JavaScript MuchoBlabla framework, etc. However, this approach to the web isn't something Google invented, it was available and in production even before Google had it's first office. It only took a large company as Google, to give this approach the exposure it needed. For example, in 1998 we already had MSXML implemented, .. only afterwards other vendors of browsers needed something similar, and came up with xmlHttpRequest(). IE 4.0 introduced XML for the first time, that was in November '97, and later on IE supported XML data islands, etc. The technique has always been there, it only needed a large company to expose it to the outside world on a larger scale. :) I built my first "Ajax" application in mid '98, it wasn't a full interface, but it involved dynamically loading ingredients of pharmaceutical products. So for me it is funny to see the "Google" invented it stamp on it, because others like Erik (webfx) have been using it for quite some time now. It only needed that enormous exposure, and I hope it continuous. So, just use Ajax, Google has nothing to do with it, except doing marketing for us developers. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 17 maart 2005 16:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ajax Yes Neuromancer is open source, and it is quite a bit more powerful than ajax I think especially with coldfusion - but ajax is by google so ... :-/ I had the original computer it was on crash and burn (windows) so I am getting it setup in it's new home (linux :-D). I lost the chat demo in the crash - if anyone has a copy laying around please send it to me. You can use Neruomancer just like ajax, and it can do more too (unmarshal a cfc into a javascript object and is able to pass cf structs to and from js via web services). It works on cfmx and blue dragon (and theoretically with .net and java axis) Anyway... yadda yadda... I'll plan on doing a long blog on its usage and features soon, but with ajax on the scene, people will probably lean towards that because it's from google. (cept for the commercial sites that are already using Neuromancer) Neuromancer was/is written by me, Dick Applebaum, and Barney Boisvert If you have any questions about it feel free to email me Cheers, Rob On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:57:28 -0800, Spike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The correct URL for neuromancer is: > > http://www.robrohan.com/projects/neuromancer/index.cfm > > I believe it is open source, but you'd need to get confirmation from Rob > on that. > > Spike > > Rick Mason wrote: > > Michael, > > > > I think the idea of a new list on Ajax is a good one. I've become > > quite interested in it lately, especially after seeing what people are > > doing with Google maps. > > > > http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/gmap2_flash.html > > > > I've seen quite a few mentions of Neuromancer. Is Neuromancer open > > source? I don't see it on CFOpen and unfortunately the link you > > provided doesn't work. Is there an alternative place it can be > > downloaded? > > > > I'd like to experiment with CF and Ajax but don't want to reinvent the > > wheel if an API for CF'ers has already been written. > > > > > > Rick Mason > > > > > > > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:38:35 -0500, Michael Dinowitz > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>With the current interest in Ajax (Asynchronous Javascript + XML), I've decided to open up a new list dedicated to it. This list should allow those interested in the technology to discuss it outside of ColdFusion or any specific platform. The list can be found here: > >> > >>http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/47 > >
RE: Ajax
I'm coming into this discussion late, but clicked on the backbase.com link and was intrigued by the site and its applications. If this is not being done in Flash, what technology is being utilized to provide the front-end? Rick -Original Message- From: mac jordan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 10:39 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ajax On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:14:17 +0100, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I meant www.backbase.com btw.. my cats wrote the previous message mine do that *all the time* -- mac jordan home: www.kestrel.org work: www.webhorus.net them: www.jordan-cats.org <<< ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199126 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
So that's the technologies involved with the demo apps on backbase.com... xhtml, css, xmlhttprequest? Where's the best place to start learning about these and how to employ them? Boy, the backbase demos really loaded quickly! Rick (I hate Flash...) -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:09 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Ajax Rob, Ajax isn't from Google. It is a name "thought up" by someone from Adaptive Path which probably did it because of personal PR stunt, but the name eventually floated around the blogs as the new handle for the combination of xhtml + css + xmlhttprequest. It is easier to say Ajax, than Single Paged Interface, XmlHttpRequest, Dynamic JavaScript MuchoBlabla framework, etc. However, this approach to the web isn't something Google invented, it was available and in production even before Google had it's first office. It only took a large company as Google, to give this approach the exposure it needed. For example, in 1998 we already had MSXML implemented, .. only afterwards other vendors of browsers needed something similar, and came up with xmlHttpRequest(). IE 4.0 introduced XML for the first time, that was in November '97, and later on IE supported XML data islands, etc. The technique has always been there, it only needed a large company to expose it to the outside world on a larger scale. :) I built my first "Ajax" application in mid '98, it wasn't a full interface, but it involved dynamically loading ingredients of pharmaceutical products. So for me it is funny to see the "Google" invented it stamp on it, because others like Erik (webfx) have been using it for quite some time now. It only needed that enormous exposure, and I hope it continuous. So, just use Ajax, Google has nothing to do with it, except doing marketing for us developers. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 17 maart 2005 16:52 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ajax Yes Neuromancer is open source, and it is quite a bit more powerful than ajax I think especially with coldfusion - but ajax is by google so ... :-/ I had the original computer it was on crash and burn (windows) so I am getting it setup in it's new home (linux :-D). I lost the chat demo in the crash - if anyone has a copy laying around please send it to me. You can use Neruomancer just like ajax, and it can do more too (unmarshal a cfc into a javascript object and is able to pass cf structs to and from js via web services). It works on cfmx and blue dragon (and theoretically with .net and java axis) Anyway... yadda yadda... I'll plan on doing a long blog on its usage and features soon, but with ajax on the scene, people will probably lean towards that because it's from google. (cept for the commercial sites that are already using Neuromancer) Neuromancer was/is written by me, Dick Applebaum, and Barney Boisvert If you have any questions about it feel free to email me Cheers, Rob On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:57:28 -0800, Spike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The correct URL for neuromancer is: > > http://www.robrohan.com/projects/neuromancer/index.cfm > > I believe it is open source, but you'd need to get confirmation from Rob > on that. > > Spike > > Rick Mason wrote: > > Michael, > > > > I think the idea of a new list on Ajax is a good one. I've become > > quite interested in it lately, especially after seeing what people are > > doing with Google maps. > > > > http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/gmap2_flash.html > > > > I've seen quite a few mentions of Neuromancer. Is Neuromancer open > > source? I don't see it on CFOpen and unfortunately the link you > > provided doesn't work. Is there an alternative place it can be > > downloaded? > > > > I'd like to experiment with CF and Ajax but don't want to reinvent the > > wheel if an API for CF'ers has already been written. > > > > > > Rick Mason > > > > > > > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:38:35 -0500, Michael Dinowitz > > <[EMAIL PROTE
Re: Ajax
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:08:51 +0100, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rob, > > Ajax isn't from Google. It is a name "thought up" by someone from > Adaptive Path which probably did it because of personal PR stunt, but > the name eventually floated around the blogs as the new handle for the > combination of xhtml + css + xmlhttprequest. It is easier to say Ajax, > than Single Paged Interface, XmlHttpRequest, Dynamic JavaScript > MuchoBlabla framework, etc. Ah I didn't know that - I've only perused the links as I kind of know how it works already > However, this approach to the web isn't something Google invented, yeah no kidding ;-D - Neuromancer was out around the same time as Flex which was well before this stuff started going around. > So for me it is funny to see the "Google" invented it stamp on it, > because others like Erik (webfx) have been using it for quite some time > now. It only needed that enormous exposure, and I hope it continuous. Yeah me too > So, just use Ajax, Google has nothing to do with it, except doing > marketing for us developers. Well, Neuromancer is a set of libraries that abstract, use, provide factories for, and marshal objects using Ajax then - :) Thanks for the clear up Micha -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199130 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Can someone explain in broad terms what Ajax et al can do? why would I want to use it? and yes Mike...I'll sign up for the new list ;-) Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com - Original Message - From: "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Ajax > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:08:51 +0100, Micha Schopman > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Rob, >> >> Ajax isn't from Google. It is a name "thought up" by someone from >> Adaptive Path which probably did it because of personal PR stunt, but >> the name eventually floated around the blogs as the new handle for the >> combination of xhtml + css + xmlhttprequest. It is easier to say Ajax, >> than Single Paged Interface, XmlHttpRequest, Dynamic JavaScript >> MuchoBlabla framework, etc. > > Ah I didn't know that - I've only perused the links as I kind of know > how it works already > >> However, this approach to the web isn't something Google invented, > > yeah no kidding ;-D - Neuromancer was out around the same time as Flex > which was well before this stuff started going around. > >> So for me it is funny to see the "Google" invented it stamp on it, >> because others like Erik (webfx) have been using it for quite some time >> now. It only needed that enormous exposure, and I hope it continuous. > > Yeah me too > >> So, just use Ajax, Google has nothing to do with it, except doing >> marketing for us developers. > > Well, Neuromancer is a set of libraries that abstract, use, provide > factories for, and marshal objects using Ajax then - :) > > Thanks for the clear up Micha > > -- > ~Blog~ > http://www.robrohan.com > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org > ~open source xslt IDE~ > http://treebeard.sourceforge.net > > ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199131 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
You want me to add an alias to the list for neuromancer? ;) I'd rename it, but Ajax has the 'mind space' now and it's kind of the default. > yeah no kidding ;-D - Neuromancer was out around the same time as Flex > which was well before this stuff started going around. > > > So for me it is funny to see the "Google" invented it stamp on it, > > because others like Erik (webfx) have been using it for quite some time > > now. It only needed that enormous exposure, and I hope it continuous. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199135 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
Imagine a web page with a search box on the side. When you type in a search term and hit submit, the space below the search box is 'filled' with search results. The page is not reloaded, there are no frames. You want to use it when you have a single page 'application' with multiple sections that you want altered without doing a page refresh. You want to refresh the specific section as if it was in its own frame but its not in a frame. > Can someone explain in broad terms what Ajax et al can do? why would I > want > to use it? > > and yes Mike...I'll sign up for the new list ;-) > > Cheers > > Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. > VP & Director of E-Commerce Development > Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. > phone: 250.480.0642 > fax: 250.480.1264 > cell: 250.920.8830 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > web: www.electricedgesystems.com > - Original Message - > From: "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 8:27 AM > Subject: Re: Ajax > > > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:08:51 +0100, Micha Schopman > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Rob, > >> > >> Ajax isn't from Google. It is a name "thought up" by someone from > >> Adaptive Path which probably did it because of personal PR stunt, but > >> the name eventually floated around the blogs as the new handle for the > >> combination of xhtml + css + xmlhttprequest. It is easier to say Ajax, > >> than Single Paged Interface, XmlHttpRequest, Dynamic JavaScript > >> MuchoBlabla framework, etc. > > > > Ah I didn't know that - I've only perused the links as I kind of know > > how it works already > > > >> However, this approach to the web isn't something Google invented, > > > > yeah no kidding ;-D - Neuromancer was out around the same time as Flex > > which was well before this stuff started going around. > > > >> So for me it is funny to see the "Google" invented it stamp on it, > >> because others like Erik (webfx) have been using it for quite some time > >> now. It only needed that enormous exposure, and I hope it continuous. > > > > Yeah me too > > > >> So, just use Ajax, Google has nothing to do with it, except doing > >> marketing for us developers. > > > > Well, Neuromancer is a set of libraries that abstract, use, provide > > factories for, and marshal objects using Ajax then - :) > > > > Thanks for the clear up Micha > > > > -- > > ~Blog~ > > http://www.robrohan.com > > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ > > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org > > ~open source xslt IDE~ > > http://treebeard.sourceforge.net > > > > > > ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199137 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Nah, but thanks Michael ;-D - Ajax is more generic it seems anyway. I guess in the grand scheme Neuromancer is a product that uses Ajax and I'll be we are going to start seeing more of Neuro type products in the future. Hella cool to offer though ;) On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:33:38 -0500, Michael Dinowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You want me to add an alias to the list for neuromancer? ;) > I'd rename it, but Ajax has the 'mind space' now and it's kind of the > default. > > > yeah no kidding ;-D - Neuromancer was out around the same time as Flex > > which was well before this stuff started going around. > > > > > So for me it is funny to see the "Google" invented it stamp on it, > > > because others like Erik (webfx) have been using it for quite some time > > > now. It only needed that enormous exposure, and I hope it continuous. > > ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199142 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
Sounds like how search is in the latest versions of Adobe Acrobat. -Original Message- From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:38 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Ajax Imagine a web page with a search box on the side. When you type in a search term and hit submit, the space below the search box is 'filled' with search results. The page is not reloaded, there are no frames. You want to use it when you have a single page 'application' with multiple sections that you want altered without doing a page refresh. You want to refresh the specific section as if it was in its own frame but its not in a frame. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199144 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
I've only read the first article that MD posted, but from that I was able to gather one huge advantage: faster reaction times between user initiated events and program responses. My main concern is the heavy reliance on javascript and elaborate client side scripting to perform these tasks. Isn't scripting something that can be easily turned off, and would that render these sites useless? Not to mention javascript-only functionality is a section 508 no-no. > Can someone explain in broad terms what Ajax et al can do? why would I > want > to use it? > > and yes Mike...I'll sign up for the new list ;-) > > Cheers > > Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. > VP & Director of E-Commerce Development > Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. > phone: 250.480.0642 > fax: 250.480.1264 > cell: 250.920.8830 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > web: www.electricedgesystems.com > - Original Message - > From: "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 8:27 AM > Subject: Re: Ajax > > >> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:08:51 +0100, Micha Schopman >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Rob, >>> >>> Ajax isn't from Google. It is a name "thought up" by someone from >>> Adaptive Path which probably did it because of personal PR stunt, but >>> the name eventually floated around the blogs as the new handle for the >>> combination of xhtml + css + xmlhttprequest. It is easier to say Ajax, >>> than Single Paged Interface, XmlHttpRequest, Dynamic JavaScript >>> MuchoBlabla framework, etc. >> >> Ah I didn't know that - I've only perused the links as I kind of know >> how it works already >> >>> However, this approach to the web isn't something Google invented, >> >> yeah no kidding ;-D - Neuromancer was out around the same time as Flex >> which was well before this stuff started going around. >> >>> So for me it is funny to see the "Google" invented it stamp on it, >>> because others like Erik (webfx) have been using it for quite some time >>> now. It only needed that enormous exposure, and I hope it continuous. >> >> Yeah me too >> >>> So, just use Ajax, Google has nothing to do with it, except doing >>> marketing for us developers. >> >> Well, Neuromancer is a set of libraries that abstract, use, provide >> factories for, and marshal objects using Ajax then - :) >> >> Thanks for the clear up Micha >> >> -- >> ~Blog~ >> http://www.robrohan.com >> ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ >> http://cfeclipse.tigris.org >> ~open source xslt IDE~ >> http://treebeard.sourceforge.net >> >> > > ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199149 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
ThanksI'm with ya now ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com - Original Message - From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 8:38 AM Subject: RE: Ajax > Imagine a web page with a search box on the side. When you type in a > search > term and hit submit, the space below the search box is 'filled' with > search > results. The page is not reloaded, there are no frames. > You want to use it when you have a single page 'application' with multiple > sections that you want altered without doing a page refresh. You want to > refresh the specific section as if it was in its own frame but its not in > a > frame. > >> Can someone explain in broad terms what Ajax et al can do? why would I >> want >> to use it? >> >> and yes Mike...I'll sign up for the new list ;-) >> >> Cheers >> >> Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. >> VP & Director of E-Commerce Development >> Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. >> phone: 250.480.0642 >> fax: 250.480.1264 >> cell: 250.920.8830 >> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> web: www.electricedgesystems.com >> - Original Message - >> From: "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "CF-Talk" >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 8:27 AM >> Subject: Re: Ajax >> >> >> > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:08:51 +0100, Micha Schopman >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Rob, >> >> >> >> Ajax isn't from Google. It is a name "thought up" by someone from >> >> Adaptive Path which probably did it because of personal PR stunt, but >> >> the name eventually floated around the blogs as the new handle for the >> >> combination of xhtml + css + xmlhttprequest. It is easier to say Ajax, >> >> than Single Paged Interface, XmlHttpRequest, Dynamic JavaScript >> >> MuchoBlabla framework, etc. >> > >> > Ah I didn't know that - I've only perused the links as I kind of know >> > how it works already >> > >> >> However, this approach to the web isn't something Google invented, >> > >> > yeah no kidding ;-D - Neuromancer was out around the same time as Flex >> > which was well before this stuff started going around. >> > >> >> So for me it is funny to see the "Google" invented it stamp on it, >> >> because others like Erik (webfx) have been using it for quite some >> >> time >> >> now. It only needed that enormous exposure, and I hope it continuous. >> > >> > Yeah me too >> > >> >> So, just use Ajax, Google has nothing to do with it, except doing >> >> marketing for us developers. >> > >> > Well, Neuromancer is a set of libraries that abstract, use, provide >> > factories for, and marshal objects using Ajax then - :) >> > >> > Thanks for the clear up Micha >> > >> > -- >> > ~Blog~ >> > http://www.robrohan.com >> > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ >> > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org >> > ~open source xslt IDE~ >> > http://treebeard.sourceforge.net >> > >> > >> >> > > ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199153 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
Ajax is all about efficiently using the available techniques today, and putting them to use by preventing full page reloads. Seperate presentation from markup, prevent full page reloads, dramatically improve the user experience. Currently 99% of the web applications are not put to their full potential. - Why are we still reloading entire grids when we only remove one row? - Why do we reload entire treeviews when we expand a level, when we can dynamically load the expanded part when necessary. - Why do we force complete reloads when we click a link and the resulting page behaves the same, only with the article shown. That's what Ajax is about. Ajax is about reusing the page, putting techniques to work result in only to reload parts of a page that have changed instead of reloading entire pages. The end result, responsive interfaces, bandwidth savings (we saved 83%), dynamic interfaces, customization options. The still static interface becomes truly a dynamic one like Google did with Gmail. About the Backbase question, yes it is all JavaScript. Section 508 does not deny you using Javascript, it only forces you to come up with alternative ways of displaying data. From: G [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 3/17/2005 5:50 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ajax I've only read the first article that MD posted, but from that I was able to gather one huge advantage: faster reaction times between user initiated events and program responses. My main concern is the heavy reliance on javascript and elaborate client side scripting to perform these tasks. Isn't scripting something that can be easily turned off, and would that render these sites useless? Not to mention javascript-only functionality is a section 508 no-no. > Can someone explain in broad terms what Ajax et al can do? why would I > want > to use it? > > and yes Mike...I'll sign up for the new list ;-) > > Cheers > > Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. > VP & Director of E-Commerce Development > Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. > phone: 250.480.0642 > fax: 250.480.1264 > cell: 250.920.8830 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > web: www.electricedgesystems.com > - Original Message - > From: "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 8:27 AM > Subject: Re: Ajax > > >> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:08:51 +0100, Micha Schopman >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Rob, >>> >>> Ajax isn't from Google. It is a name "thought up" by someone from >>> Adaptive Path which probably did it because of personal PR stunt, but >>> the name eventually floated around the blogs as the new handle for the >>> combination of xhtml + css + xmlhttprequest. It is easier to say Ajax, >>> than Single Paged Interface, XmlHttpRequest, Dynamic JavaScript >>> MuchoBlabla framework, etc. >> >> Ah I didn't know that - I've only perused the links as I kind of know >> how it works already >> >>> However, this approach to the web isn't something Google invented, >> >> yeah no kidding ;-D - Neuromancer was out around the same time as Flex >> which was well before this stuff started going around. >> >>> So for me it is funny to see the "Google" invented it stamp on it, >>> because others like Erik (webfx) have been using it for quite some time >>> now. It only needed that enormous exposure, and I hope it continuous. >> >> Yeah me too >> >>> So, just use Ajax, Google has nothing to do with it, except doing >>> marketing for us developers. >> >> Well, Neuromancer is a set of libraries that abstract, use, provide >> factories for, and marshal objects using Ajax then - :) >> >> Thanks for the clear up Micha >> >> -- >> ~Blog~ >> http://www.robrohan.com >> ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ >> http://cfeclipse.tigris.org >> ~open source xslt IDE~ >> http://treebeard.sourceforge.net >> >> > > ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199161 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> > However, this approach to the web isn't something Google > > invented, > > yeah no kidding ;-D - Neuromancer was out around the same > time as Flex which was well before this stuff started going > around. It's worth pointing out that similar DHTML interfaces have been around for many, many years. We've been building interfaces like this before the term DHTML existed, using hidden frames in Netscape 3.0. Being able to use XmlHTTPRequest is just icing on the cake, really. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199171 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
Forgive me if I'm missing something here but isn't this a bit of a step backwards? Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole Flash based RIA thing was supposed to address the difficulty with producing the kind of applications you can produce with AJAX - as Micha pointed out - these kind of applications require domscript gurus and are not for the faint hearted. I would I imagine due to cross browser issues. Flash has a few advantages such as a consistent look and feel across platforms, and mobile support (and yes I'm aware of the disadvantages) - I'm confused why the sudden uptake as a result of Google' recent applications. As others have pointed out this is nothing new. I guess Macromedia really did shoot themselves in the foot with the pricing of Flex - I can' help but wonder the type of applications and rapid uptake we would have seen had they not priced it so high. Just my 2 pence (before someone asks for this to be moved to cf-community) Kola > -Original Message- > From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 17 March 2005 17:41 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: Ajax > > Ajax is all about efficiently using the available techniques today, and > putting them to use by preventing full page reloads. > > Seperate presentation from markup, prevent full page reloads, dramatically > improve the user experience. > > Currently 99% of the web applications are not put to their full potential. > > - Why are we still reloading entire grids when we only remove one row? > > - Why do we reload entire treeviews when we expand a level, when we can > dynamically load the expanded part when necessary. > > - Why do we force complete reloads when we click a link and the resulting > page behaves the same, only with the article shown. > > That's what Ajax is about. Ajax is about reusing the page, putting > techniques to work result in only to reload parts of a page that have > changed instead of reloading entire pages. > > The end result, responsive interfaces, bandwidth savings (we saved 83%), > dynamic interfaces, customization options. The still static interface > becomes truly a dynamic one like Google did with Gmail. > > About the Backbase question, yes it is all JavaScript. > > Section 508 does not deny you using Javascript, it only forces you to come > up with alternative ways of displaying data. > > > > From: G [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thu 3/17/2005 5:50 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: Ajax > > > > I've only read the first article that MD posted, but from that I was able > to > gather one huge advantage: faster reaction times between user initiated > events and program responses. > > My main concern is the heavy reliance on javascript and elaborate client > side scripting to perform these tasks. Isn't scripting something that can > be > easily turned off, and would that render these sites useless? Not to > mention > javascript-only functionality is a section 508 no-no. > > > > Can someone explain in broad terms what Ajax et al can do? why would I > > want > > to use it? > > > > and yes Mike...I'll sign up for the new list ;-) > > > > Cheers > > > > Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. > > VP & Director of E-Commerce Development > > Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. > > phone: 250.480.0642 > > fax: 250.480.1264 > > cell: 250.920.8830 > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > web: www.electricedgesystems.com > > - Original Message - > > From: "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "CF-Talk" > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 8:27 AM > > Subject: Re: Ajax > > > > > >> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:08:51 +0100, Micha Schopman > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> Rob, > >>> > >>> Ajax isn't from Google. It is a name "thought up" by someone from > >>> Adaptive Path which probably did it because of personal PR stunt, but > >>> the name eventually floated around the blogs as the new handle for the > >>> combination of xhtml + css + xmlhttprequest. It is easier to say Ajax, > >>> than Single Paged Interface, XmlHttpRequest, Dynamic JavaScript > >>> MuchoBlabla framework, etc. > >> > >> Ah I didn't know that - I've only perused the links as I kind of know > >> how it works already > >> > >>> However, this approach to the web isn't something Google invented, > >> > >> yeah no kidding ;-D - Neuromancer was out around the same time as Flex > >> which was well be
Re: Ajax
> It's worth pointing out that similar DHTML interfaces have been around for > many, many years. We've been building interfaces like this before the term > DHTML existed, using hidden frames in Netscape 3.0. Being able to use > XmlHTTPRequest is just icing on the cake, really. Totally - Pongo (or something like that) was doing it with hidden frames and wddx I think for quite some time. The people who run Neuromancer in one of the commercial app just told me it was ok to say it was there and provide a link. The app is like Dell for Cloths, you pick out options and provide body profile questions, and then in the end you get a custom made article of clothing. When you are answering the questions, some selections disable others and there is some validation going on behind the scenes. This is not a "wow" example, but Neuromancers is used quite extensively (if you have the firefox Live HTTP Headers plug-in installed turn it on :-D) They did a soft launch with Tommy Hilfiger (advertising to come out shortly) http://shop.tommy.com/shop?dsp=804&pcr=804&R=1366 When you get to the questions part thats when it kicks in. BTW I tried to convince them to use Flex, but they said it was too expensive :-/ -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199177 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
What alternative ways are you using? The thought of building an app twice doesn't really appeal to me, so I'm curious as to your solution. - Original Message - From: "Micha Schopman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:40 AM Subject: RE: Ajax > Section 508 does not deny you using Javascript, it only forces you to come > up with alternative ways of displaying data. > ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199179 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> About the Backbase question, yes it is all JavaScript. Well, if JavaScript can do that, maybe it's time I learned JavaScript... Where can I learn more about Ajax? Rick -Original Message- From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 12:41 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Ajax Ajax is all about efficiently using the available techniques today, and putting them to use by preventing full page reloads. Seperate presentation from markup, prevent full page reloads, dramatically improve the user experience. Currently 99% of the web applications are not put to their full potential. - Why are we still reloading entire grids when we only remove one row? - Why do we reload entire treeviews when we expand a level, when we can dynamically load the expanded part when necessary. - Why do we force complete reloads when we click a link and the resulting page behaves the same, only with the article shown. That's what Ajax is about. Ajax is about reusing the page, putting techniques to work result in only to reload parts of a page that have changed instead of reloading entire pages. The end result, responsive interfaces, bandwidth savings (we saved 83%), dynamic interfaces, customization options. The still static interface becomes truly a dynamic one like Google did with Gmail. About the Backbase question, yes it is all JavaScript. Section 508 does not deny you using Javascript, it only forces you to come up with alternative ways of displaying data. From: G [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 3/17/2005 5:50 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ajax I've only read the first article that MD posted, but from that I was able to gather one huge advantage: faster reaction times between user initiated events and program responses. My main concern is the heavy reliance on javascript and elaborate client side scripting to perform these tasks. Isn't scripting something that can be easily turned off, and would that render these sites useless? Not to mention javascript-only functionality is a section 508 no-no. > Can someone explain in broad terms what Ajax et al can do? why would I > want > to use it? > > and yes Mike...I'll sign up for the new list ;-) > > Cheers > > Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. > VP & Director of E-Commerce Development > Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. > phone: 250.480.0642 > fax: 250.480.1264 > cell: 250.920.8830 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > web: www.electricedgesystems.com > - Original Message - > From: "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 8:27 AM > Subject: Re: Ajax > > >> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:08:51 +0100, Micha Schopman >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Rob, >>> >>> Ajax isn't from Google. It is a name "thought up" by someone from >>> Adaptive Path which probably did it because of personal PR stunt, but >>> the name eventually floated around the blogs as the new handle for the >>> combination of xhtml + css + xmlhttprequest. It is easier to say Ajax, >>> than Single Paged Interface, XmlHttpRequest, Dynamic JavaScript >>> MuchoBlabla framework, etc. >> >> Ah I didn't know that - I've only perused the links as I kind of know >> how it works already >> >>> However, this approach to the web isn't something Google invented, >> >> yeah no kidding ;-D - Neuromancer was out around the same time as Flex >> which was well before this stuff started going around. >> >>> So for me it is funny to see the "Google" invented it stamp on it, >>> because others like Erik (webfx) have been using it for quite some time >>> now. It only needed that enormous exposure, and I hope it continuous. >> >> Yeah me too >> >>> So, just use Ajax, Google has nothing to do with it, except doing >>> marketing for us developers. >> >> Well, Neuromancer is a set of libraries that abstract, use, provide >> factories for, and marshal objects using Ajax then - :) >> >> Thanks for the clear up Micha >> >> -- >> ~Blog~ >> http://www.robrohan.com >> ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ >> http://cfeclipse.tigris.org >> ~open source xslt IDE~ >> http://treebeard.sourceforge.net >> >> > > ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199180 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
No your are definately not wrong. Flex is meant as a rapid development framework for complex Rich Internet Applications. Flash has full ECMA support and has the ability in combination with for example, Flash Communication Server, for building complex web applications ... all in theory .. In practice, with the current flashplayer, flash applications are way too heavy. That is because the flash player in its current form isn't capable of giving the required performance for larger interfaces. On the Mac the player is even worse. On my dual opteron workstation for example scrolling the Flex Treeview example isn't going smoothly. Once the new flash player comes out I bet you will see more possibilities with RIA's in a Flash form. The previewed performance was dramatically, but we are not there yet. Javascript isn't the quickest scripting language either, it just isn't, but it is capable in its current capacity of doing all what you need today, and it has enough power to build truly large interfaces. A BIG disadvantage of using Ajax, is the lack of experienced developers. It requires several years of experience on multiple areas. It requires extensive knowledge of CSS, XML (XHTML), Markup and JavaScript, in combination with presentation layer architecture experience. There are very few people who can do this. But once you get a team of this type of geeks together you get things like Gmail. Things like checking logins with xmlHttp, most people can do, that is not difficult at all. It becomes truly powerfull, if you can build entire interfaces with it acting responsive, user friendly and cached (yes... js,css files are cached). ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199184 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Well, if you want to move this thread over to the Ajax list :) ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199185 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> Forgive me if I'm missing something here but isn't > this a bit of a step backwards? I don't know if I'd say backwards... I'm hoping the advent of standards-compliant browsers and the evolution of the standards will help make DOM more generally accepted if never required. I'm of the impression they're generally accepted by the average visitor / user now... There are a handful of exceptions - people with severe security "issues" or who refuse to accept any page that can't be easily viewed via a telnet session (which most users wouldn't even begin to know _how_ to use much less why). Though honestly with the market saturation of computers / internet technology only steadily increasing, these folks are in a minority that will only continue to shrink. > Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole Flash based > RIA thing was supposed to address the difficulty > with producing the kind of applications you can > produce with AJAX - as Micha pointed out - these > kind of applications require domscript gurus and > are not for the faint hearted. I don't use Ajax but I have a lot of dom gui widgets I use -- I mostly don't write DOM these days... I do on occasion, but mostly I just use my CF-wrapper API's ... of course, you could say that these also require you to become a guru of another kind... which would have some validity, but then there are lots of ways in which the complexity of the underlying API can be (and are) encapsulated into higher-level constructs, like xml... for example: Which is much more intuitive to read than the domscript this generates (this is paraphrased): // > I would I imagine due to cross browser issues. > Flash has a few advantages such as a > consistent look and feel across platforms, The disadvantages of html/dom in this regard aren't nearly the issue you might expect -- not anymore anyway -- haven't been for a few years. > and mobile support (and yes I'm aware of the > disadvantages) - I'm confused why the sudden > uptake as a result of Google' recent applications. > As others have pointed out this is nothing new. Because it's Google and any time Google does anything everybody reacts as though it's the most amazing discovery since penicilin -- even though they really haven't ever done anything genuinely new, just put new trenchcoats on old ideas. > I guess Macromedia really did shoot themselves in the foot > with the pricing of Flex - I can' help but wonder the type > of applications and rapid uptake we would have seen had > they not priced it so high. You're certainly not alone in that thinking. > Just my 2 pence > (before someone asks for this to be moved to cf-community) Wouldn't it make more sense to move this to the new Ajax list? s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p49777853/ http://www.sys-con.com/author/?id=4806 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199188 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Deanna, first let me say most Ajax applications cannot be made 508 complaint. Not due to the use of techniques, but due to the sort of application. A google maps for example, isn't a type of application which people with a disability (correct spelling?) can really use. What can be used is for example Gmail. An application perfectly possible with a screenreader. What this involves, is the use of for example noscript tags as defined by the W3, the use of alternative texts, and providing stylesheets for screenreaders by setting the media attribute of the link tag. The earlier posted screenshot of the application I am working on involves a content management application. This is a type of Ajax application not reaching 508 compliance. I don't see how a visual handicapped person could use this type of application even when I provided them with a text version of it. The Ajax application I posted earlier: http://www.mschopman.demon.nl/cms.jpg ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199189 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> Forgive me if I'm missing something here but isn't this a bit > of a step backwards? > > Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole Flash based RIA thing > was supposed to address the difficulty with producing the > kind of applications you can produce with AJAX - as Micha > pointed out - these kind of applications require domscript > gurus and are not for the faint hearted. I would I imagine > due to cross browser issues. Flash has a few advantages such > as a consistent look and feel across platforms, and mobile > support (and yes I'm aware of the disadvantages) - I'm > confused why the sudden uptake as a result of Google' recent > applications. As others have pointed out this is nothing new. > > I guess Macromedia really did shoot themselves in the foot > with the pricing of Flex - I can' help but wonder the type of > applications and rapid uptake we would have seen had they not > priced it so high. I wouldn't say it's a step backwards; it's more like walking side-by-side. A lot of the ideas behind Flash RIAs and Flex are intended to address the deficiencies in DHTML interfaces, and Flash (or something like it) will probably replace DHTML interfaces in the long term. But a few of the problems of DHTML have resolved themselves. For example, more-or-less cross-platform DHTML is easier now than it used to be. Also, DHTML programming isn't all that hard. Being a "domscript guru" simply isn't that hard for an experienced programmer. As for MM shooting themselves in the foot, the price of Flex is simply not that much given the typical development time for a complex web application, so I don't buy that at all. There are some interface problems that Flash is simply not ready to solve, and in the short term DHTML interfaces may be a better answer than Flash for those problems. The tables may turn when Flash Player 8 comes out, for all I know. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199194 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Rob, I think what you're doing would be defined as Ajax - the term is fairly new. Definitely interested in the offer of demos. Also the link posted was to the docs, was there a link to the code on that site that I missed? Rick Mason On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:51:44 -0800, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes Neuromancer is open source, and it is quite a bit more powerful > than ajax I think especially with coldfusion - but ajax is by google > so ... :-/ > > I had the original computer it was on crash and burn (windows) so I am > getting it setup in it's new home (linux :-D). I lost the chat demo in > the crash - if anyone has a copy laying around please send it to me. > > You can use Neruomancer just like ajax, and it can do more too > (unmarshal a cfc into a javascript object and is able to pass cf > structs to and from js via web services). It works on cfmx and blue > dragon (and theoretically with .net and java axis) > > Anyway... yadda yadda... I'll plan on doing a long blog on its usage > and features soon, but with ajax on the scene, people will probably > lean towards that because it's from google. (cept for the commercial > sites that are already using Neuromancer) > > Neuromancer was/is written by me, Dick Applebaum, and Barney Boisvert > > If you have any questions about it feel free to email me > > Cheers, > Rob > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:57:28 -0800, Spike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The correct URL for neuromancer is: > > > > http://www.robrohan.com/projects/neuromancer/index.cfm > > > > I believe it is open source, but you'd need to get confirmation from Rob > > on that. > > > > Spike > > > > Rick Mason wrote: > > > Michael, > > > > > > I think the idea of a new list on Ajax is a good one. I've become > > > quite interested in it lately, especially after seeing what people are > > > doing with Google maps. > > > > > > http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/gmap2_flash.html > > > > > > I've seen quite a few mentions of Neuromancer. Is Neuromancer open > > > source? I don't see it on CFOpen and unfortunately the link you > > > provided doesn't work. Is there an alternative place it can be > > > downloaded? > > > > > > I'd like to experiment with CF and Ajax but don't want to reinvent the > > > wheel if an API for CF'ers has already been written. > > > > > > > > > Rick Mason > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:38:35 -0500, Michael Dinowitz > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >>With the current interest in Ajax (Asynchronous Javascript + XML), I've > > >>decided to open up a new list dedicated to it. This list should allow > > >>those interested in the technology to discuss it outside of ColdFusion or > > >>any specific platform. The list can be found here: > > >> > > >>http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/47 > > >> > > >>and a good article on the technology can be found here: > > >> > > >>http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000385.php > > >> > > >>some other links of interest on Ajax: > > >> > > >>http://www.rohanclan.com/products/neuromancer/index.cfm > > >>http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/399.cfm > > >>http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/messages.cfm/forumid:4/threadid:38991 > > >>http://www.robrohan.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=101ABA29-B8B9-B9A5-875B12724E6716C8 > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199202 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
>> It's worth pointing out that similar DHTML interfaces >> have been around for >> many, many years. We've been building interfaces like >> this before the term >> DHTML existed, using hidden frames in Netscape 3.0. Being >> able to use >> XmlHTTPRequest is just icing on the cake, really. > Totally - Pongo (or something like that) was doing it with > hidden > frames and wddx I think for quite some time. Dan Switzer had one he called "Client/Server Gateway JSAPI" ... part of the problem with names -- I'd bet it would have had more ubiquity if it had a simpler name like qForms ... Matt Walker also had something similar he called Simple Remote Scripting (SRS). As names go, AJAX is a good name not only because it's short and easy to say but also because it has the kind of _sound_ that people remember (psychology of sound -- like the psychology of color). The onTap framework has some tools that accomplish the same ends, I just don't see the need for XmlHTTPRequest as a transport medium. Part of the reason I wasn't too hip to use Dan Switzer's API in spite of it being a pretty small library... I'd think you'd only need or want to use XML if you planned to send data between different domains hosted on separate servers, rather than within an individual application where it seems to me it would be much more efficient to _not_ need to continaully serialize and deserialize XML packets. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p49777853/ http://www.sys-con.com/author/?id=4806 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199203 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
> The earlier posted screenshot of the application I am > working on involves a content management application. This > is a type of Ajax application not reaching 508 compliance. > I don't see how a visual handicapped person could use this > type of application even when I provided them with a text > version of it. The sort of reason that I think things like section 508 while laudable are at least attempting to go way too far... So yes, it's good for handicapped people to be able to do the same things as the rest of us -- to a point... But to demand that all things must be accessible to all people regardless of handicap is just going to put handcuffs on everyone. Wait, no, you can't use graphics, because some people can't see... Wait, no you can't use audio, because some people can't hear... What about people who are deaf _and_ blind? How are we supposed to accomodate them? And is it really necessary that because some people can't see or can't see well that _no_one_, not even people with severe miopia should be declined a job where their primary responsibility is to manage content of a visual nature (text) which logically _should_ require at least average visual accuity? If you're that miopic, shouldn't you logically be trying to find some other way of making a living or moving in with family who can support you when you can't work anymore? When does the creep of the straightjacket stop? When can we stop and say "okay, some things are just not reasonable". Not that I'm really terribly read up on 508 -- what I know about it could probably fill a thimble... I just think about the possibility of LIBRARIES as typically government-run institutions demanding that their jobs be available to any person no matter how myopic they might be and I have to think "my god, what a freakishly frustrating handcuff to put on people -- a good cause taken to an extreme in a place where it logically shouldn't apply." And I wouldn't be surprised if it's not the case with the current state of 508 regulations that it will become that way. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p49777853/ http://www.sys-con.com/author/?id=4806 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199204 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
I forgot to mention FusionScript -- although I have no idea where that project's going -- or gone as the case may be... I'm under the impression that making the later versions commercial pretty much killed its advancement -- at least I remember hearing someone tell me the author gave a presentation in which he mentioned regretting not leaving it open-source ultimately. >> It's worth pointing out that similar DHTML interfaces >> have been around for >> many, many years. We've been building interfaces like >> this before the term >> DHTML existed, using hidden frames in Netscape 3.0. Being >> able to use >> XmlHTTPRequest is just icing on the cake, really. > Totally - Pongo (or something like that) was doing it with > hidden > frames and wddx I think for quite some time. Dan Switzer had one he called "Client/Server Gateway JSAPI" ... part of the problem with names -- I'd bet it would have had more ubiquity if it had a simpler name like qForms ... Matt Walker also had something similar he called Simple Remote Scripting (SRS). As names go, AJAX is a good name not only because it's short and easy to say but also because it has the kind of _sound_ that people remember (psychology of sound -- like the psychology of color). The onTap framework has some tools that accomplish the same ends, I just don't see the need for XmlHTTPRequest as a transport medium. Part of the reason I wasn't too hip to use Dan Switzer's API in spite of it being a pretty small library... I'd think you'd only need or want to use XML if you planned to send data between different domains hosted on separate servers, rather than within an individual application where it seems to me it would be much more efficient to _not_ need to continaully serialize and deserialize XML packets. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p49777853/ http://www.sys-con.com/author/?id=4806 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199207 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> The sort of reason that I think things like section 508 while > laudable are at least attempting to go way too far... So yes, > it's good for handicapped people to be able to do the same > things as the rest of us > -- to a point... But to demand that all things must be > accessible to all people regardless of handicap is just going > to put handcuffs on everyone. Compliance doesn't mean not using whatever features you like, it means providing interfaces for those who can't use these features. If you can't afford to build multiple interfaces, you're probably better off building something that everyone can use. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199208 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> The onTap framework has some tools that accomplish the same > ends, I just don't see the need for XmlHTTPRequest as a > transport medium. Part of the reason I wasn't too hip to use > Dan Switzer's API in spite of it being a pretty small > library... I'd think you'd only need or want to use XML if > you planned to send data between different domains hosted on > separate servers, rather than within an individual > application where it seems to me it would be much more > efficient to _not_ need to continaully serialize and > deserialize XML packets. You don't need to use XML to take advantage of XmlHTTPRequest, you can simply use it to fetch things via HTTP, which is a good thing to be able to do since you can avoid using frames/iframes/new windows, etc. You can just look into your responseText property instead of responseXML. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199210 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:16:42 -0500, S. Isaac Dealey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -- to a point... But to demand that all things must be accessible to > all people regardless of handicap is just going to put handcuffs on Go tell that to the government... > Not that > I'm really terribly read up on 508 -- what I know about it could > probably fill a thimble... Obviously, based on your somewhat specious comments in response to the accessibility issue :) Seriously, as a web developer, you owe it to yourself to read up on it and learn exactly what it does (and does NOT) mean for web design. It doesn't prevent you from using lots of techniques, it merely requires that there are alternatives (you *can* use images, but provide appropriate 'alt' tags; you *can* use Javascript but the site must also be usable without it; you *can* use Flash but you need to program in the accessibility - and Flash has support for that these days). -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199222 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
> I think what you're doing would be defined as Ajax - the term is > fairly new. Definitely interested in the offer of demos. Yeah I guess, but I've been doing it since before the term existed so it seems odd calling it that. Actually what neruomancer is is an abstraction layer above ajax so you do things like httpfactory.getInstance().doPost(myxml); in any browser - it takes care of the setup and browser differences for you. There is a bunch of other stuff too like turning a wsdl into a javascript object - that is *not* ajax but it uses it > Also the link posted was to the docs, was there a link to the code on > that site that I missed? I've been on a cleaning spree the past bit. I am going to do another release pretty soon (probably tonight if I get time) but there is no link at present (there was one but the server got hosed). I'll post the releases to the ajax list if you care (or just keep checking that documentation link) -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199228 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Rob, Thanks, it is much appreciated. Rick Mason ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199249 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Isaac, Actually I have used Dan's client server JSAPI for quite some time. I've found it much more stable and easier to implement than alternatives like the two selects related tag. I know he was planning a version 2.0 of QForms and I believe the JSAPI, but so far it hasn't been released. Our whole CFUG adapted QForms after Dan spoke to our group two years ago. Not many speakers would drive from Columbus to East Lansing and return the same night to speak about an open source product but we were glad that he did. Rick Mason On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:02:24 -0500, S. Isaac Dealey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> It's worth pointing out that similar DHTML interfaces > >> have been around for > >> many, many years. We've been building interfaces like > >> this before the term > >> DHTML existed, using hidden frames in Netscape 3.0. Being > >> able to use > >> XmlHTTPRequest is just icing on the cake, really. > > > Totally - Pongo (or something like that) was doing it with > > hidden > > frames and wddx I think for quite some time. > > Dan Switzer had one he called "Client/Server Gateway JSAPI" ... part > of the problem with names -- I'd bet it would have had more ubiquity > if it had a simpler name like qForms ... Matt Walker also had > something similar he called Simple Remote Scripting (SRS). > > As names go, AJAX is a good name not only because it's short and easy > to say but also because it has the kind of _sound_ that people > remember (psychology of sound -- like the psychology of color). > > The onTap framework has some tools that accomplish the same ends, I > just don't see the need for XmlHTTPRequest as a transport medium. Part > of the reason I wasn't too hip to use Dan Switzer's API in spite of it > being a pretty small library... I'd think you'd only need or want to > use XML if you planned to send data between different domains hosted > on separate servers, rather than within an individual application > where it seems to me it would be much more efficient to _not_ need to > continaully serialize and deserialize XML packets. > > > s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 > new epoch : isn't it time for a change? > > add features without fixtures with > the onTap open source framework > > http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p49777853/ > http://www.sys-con.com/author/?id=4806 > http://www.fusiontap.com > > ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199252 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
> Isaac, > Actually I have used Dan's client server JSAPI for > quite some time. I've found it much more stable and > easier to implement than alternatives like the two > selects related tag. I know he was planning a > version 2.0 of QForms and I believe the JSAPI, but > so far it hasn't been released. Yea, I remember hearing about a 2.0 version of qForms although iirc the last mention of it I'd seen was on his blog over a year ago... I could be wrong, but he seems to have largely fallen off the radar... not sure why... I know managing a popular open source project can be frustrating at times and I imagine he may have felt like he needed some "space"... Though didn't the qForms API have a two-selects related feature? I used qForms for a while -- actually was rather fond of it. For a while toward the beginning of the onTap project (or maybe even before onTap when I was still promoting the TAPI libraries) I had intended to integrate with the qForms library in the onTap framework. I'd created a preliminary management API -- something that would abstract the qForms API further to eliminate a lot of common, repetitive form-management tasks. I emailed Dan about it asking what his opinion was, but that was about the time he seemed to sort of disappear and I never heard anything back... Since then I've replicated many (most?) of the qForms features in the onTap framework, and a number of features that qForms simply couldn't accomodate due to it's client-side nature (the onTap equivalents are client-server bundled features, so just about anything you can do client-side you can also do server-side with similar cf syntax). I've also implemented a javascript client-server tool in the framework but didn't use wddx or xml (or any iframes) to accomplish it. > Our whole CFUG adapted QForms after Dan spoke to our > group two years ago. Not many speakers would drive > from Columbus to East Lansing and return the same > night to speak about an open source product but we > were glad that he did. Yea, that's dedication. I made a 4 hr drive from Dallas to Austin a little over a year ago to promote the onTap framework. Although I only had to make the drive once each direction. I wanted to make the same trip to present in Houston but at the time I couldn't find any information about a Houston CFUG and I hear from one of the guys there that there wasn't really an active CFUG at the time... there was one, but it wasn't active or was just getting started. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p49777853/ http://www.sys-con.com/author/?id=4806 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199257 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
It has a n-selects example, would not really call it a feature. The example is something he put up a couple years back after having helped me via emails to make a n-selects solution. On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:56:06 -0500, S. Isaac Dealey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Though didn't the qForms API have a two-selects related feature? ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199265 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
> It has a n-selects example, would not really call it a > feature. The > example is something he put up a couple years back after > having helped > me via emails to make a n-selects solution. Oh, so it's not a predesigned tool to do that... for some reason I thought the qForms API had one... I remember seeing an example on the site of "containers" -- which afaik is the same thing PLUM is calling "chooser controls". The ontap implementation is called a swapbox. s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p49777853/ http://www.sys-con.com/author/?id=4806 http://www.fusiontap.com ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199271 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
I am too lazy to go to his site right now, but I recall "containers" and "n-selects" being two completely different examples. The "containers" I think were essentially some built in functionality. I have always been a big fan of qForms and would have loved to see 2.0 come out but certainly do not get the impression it will be. On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:36:14 -0500, S. Isaac Dealey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It has a n-selects example, would not really call it a > > feature. The > > example is something he put up a couple years back after > > having helped > > me via emails to make a n-selects solution. > > Oh, so it's not a predesigned tool to do that... for some reason I > thought the qForms API had one... I remember seeing an example on the > site of "containers" -- which afaik is the same thing PLUM is calling > "chooser controls". The ontap implementation is called a swapbox. > > s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080 > new epoch : isn't it time for a change? > > add features without fixtures with > the onTap open source framework > > http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p49777853/ > http://www.sys-con.com/author/?id=4806 > http://www.fusiontap.com > > ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199286 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
" Oh, so it's not a predesigned tool to do that... for some reason I thought the qForms API had one... I remember seeing an example on the site of "containers" -- which afaik is the same thing PLUM is calling "chooser controls". The ontap implementation is called a swapbox." If you swap telephone numbers you might collaborate in defining a generic name. :P Micha Schopman Software Engineer Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199292 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
If you'd like to know a bit more about Neuromancer (which uses ajax ), download the libraries, or view the documentation you can check it out on my recent blog post (all the links are in there). http://www.robrohan.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=58682C84-10AD-6BB7-86B2ED2A27D78515 there is also a little movie on there that shows a bit how it works (it kind of suck though because I was trying to talk really fast to save bandwidth :-/ ) Hey MM, can I have a breeze account? On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:58:27 -0500, Rick Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rob, > > I think what you're doing would be defined as Ajax - the term is > fairly new. Definitely interested in the offer of demos. > > Also the link posted was to the docs, was there a link to the code on > that site that I missed? > > Rick Mason > > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:51:44 -0800, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Yes Neuromancer is open source, and it is quite a bit more powerful > > than ajax I think especially with coldfusion - but ajax is by google > > so ... :-/ > > > > I had the original computer it was on crash and burn (windows) so I am > > getting it setup in it's new home (linux :-D). I lost the chat demo in > > the crash - if anyone has a copy laying around please send it to me. > > > > You can use Neruomancer just like ajax, and it can do more too > > (unmarshal a cfc into a javascript object and is able to pass cf > > structs to and from js via web services). It works on cfmx and blue > > dragon (and theoretically with .net and java axis) > > > > Anyway... yadda yadda... I'll plan on doing a long blog on its usage > > and features soon, but with ajax on the scene, people will probably > > lean towards that because it's from google. (cept for the commercial > > sites that are already using Neuromancer) > > > > Neuromancer was/is written by me, Dick Applebaum, and Barney Boisvert > > > > If you have any questions about it feel free to email me > > > > Cheers, > > Rob > > > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:57:28 -0800, Spike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > The correct URL for neuromancer is: > > > > > > http://www.robrohan.com/projects/neuromancer/index.cfm > > > > > > I believe it is open source, but you'd need to get confirmation from Rob > > > on that. > > > > > > Spike > > > > > > Rick Mason wrote: > > > > Michael, > > > > > > > > I think the idea of a new list on Ajax is a good one. I've become > > > > quite interested in it lately, especially after seeing what people are > > > > doing with Google maps. > > > > > > > > http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/gems/gmap2_flash.html > > > > > > > > I've seen quite a few mentions of Neuromancer. Is Neuromancer open > > > > source? I don't see it on CFOpen and unfortunately the link you > > > > provided doesn't work. Is there an alternative place it can be > > > > downloaded? > > > > > > > > I'd like to experiment with CF and Ajax but don't want to reinvent the > > > > wheel if an API for CF'ers has already been written. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick Mason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:38:35 -0500, Michael Dinowitz > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > >>With the current interest in Ajax (Asynchronous Javascript + XML), I've > > > >>decided to open up a new list dedicated to it. This list should allow > > > >>those interested in the technology to discuss it outside of ColdFusion > > > >>or any specific platform. The list can be found here: > > > >> > > > >>http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/47 > > > >> > > > >>and a good article on the technology can be found here: > > > >> > > > >>http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000385.php > > > >> > > > >>some other links of interest on Ajax: > > > >> > > > >>http://www.rohanclan.com/products/neuromancer/index.cfm > > > >>http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/399.cfm > > > >>http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/messages.cfm/forumid:4/threadid:38991 > > > >>http://www.robrohan.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=101ABA29-B8B9-B9A5-875B12724E6716C8 > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199294 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
Rob, Both demos fail, or are you working on it? The store seems bankrupt, and the OS seems to fail on global activeItem variables. :) Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - - ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199295 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Hum... works for me. What browser are you using? If you've looked at the demos before you may want to dump your cache. On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:27:20 +0100, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rob, > > Both demos fail, or are you working on it? The store seems bankrupt, and > the OS seems to fail on global activeItem variables. :) > > Micha Schopman > Project Manager > > Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort > Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 > KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 > > > > - > Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren > de interactie met uw doelgroep. > Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer > informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl > > > - > > - > > ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199296 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
As a followup: Regarding Ajax, David Mendels of Macromedia stated the following, which I totally agree with: "It is really, really, really hard to build something like Gmail and Google Maps," said David Mendels, general manager of platform products for Macromedia. "Google hired rocket scientists--they hired Adam Bosworth, who invented DHTML when he was at Microsoft. Most companies can't go and repeat what Google has done." I can only say, don't be fooled when making promises to your boss. Doing Ajax on web application area is experts work. Doing Ajax on smaller parts anyone can do. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199297 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
> I can only say, don't be fooled when making promises to your boss. Doing > Ajax on web application area is experts work. Doing Ajax on smaller > parts anyone can do. Then if you break large web applications into smaller parts than anyone can do it. I am sorry, but your comment seems like you are saying people are stupid, and I don't think thats a very nice (or correct) thing to say. I could just be reading that wrong though. -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199299 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
Rob, What I meant is that there is still a lot of ignorance regarding complex web interfaces. People make the mistake if they see Ajax as "just do it". It involves much more because the largest browser today, does not function according to standards, but also requires attention on several points when you work with large interfaces. It also requires you to think about ui architecture, working with layers, how to communicatie between them, what functions do work on elements and what not, what are the differences between browsers, rendering, support. What browser support method a, method b etc.. When you are working with a small part, you don't have to really think this all through. It is just a part on the webpage which is Ajax enabled. When you look at for example Gmail, the entire application runs on an Ajax layer. Then it gets seriously complex, and then you really need experts like Google has. I hope a lot of people will do Ajax, I think it is an amazing new step in the web. But I only warn people, not too make promises too quickly, because many people underestimate the complexity. Was that more subtile? :P Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: vrijdag 18 maart 2005 11:08 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ajax > I can only say, don't be fooled when making promises to your boss. Doing > Ajax on web application area is experts work. Doing Ajax on smaller > parts anyone can do. Then if you break large web applications into smaller parts than anyone can do it. I am sorry, but your comment seems like you are saying people are stupid, and I don't think thats a very nice (or correct) thing to say. I could just be reading that wrong though. -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199300 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
>I hope a lot of people will do Ajax, I think it is an amazing new step >in the web. But I only warn people, not too make promises too quickly, >because many people underestimate the complexity. New step? This stuff's been around for a long time. Google just decided to go nuts with it. The technology's not new, but building applications of this scale with it is. http://news.com.com/Will+AJAX+help+Google+clean+up/2100-1032_3-5621010.html ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199309 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
The media exposure it gets is a new step. Blogs have been around for year too. It only needed that media attention for becoming what it is today. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199324 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
>The media exposure it gets is a new step. Blogs have been around for >year too. It only needed that media attention for becoming what it is >today. Agreed on that point. As with anything it takes a large, high-profile project or two for something to get widespread attention. I just was getting caught up on this thread and much of it had the tone of "I for one welcome our new AJAX overlords!" so I had a bit of a "Huh?" reaction. If it takes Google and Amazon doing it to get people aware of it and start utilizing the capabilities in their own apps where it makes sense to do so, then I'm all for it. There's a good Q&A at the bottom of this page that I think clears up some of the confusion that's been going through this thread: http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000385.php Matt ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199326 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
You mean the tone of "not everybody can do it"? :) To be honest, that is the just the case with Ajax. It isn't simple due to the large combination of factors involved with developing such applications. A lot of techniques involved, lack of descent debugging and profiling tools, buggy implementations of standards, proprietary implementations, different platforms with different browsers, mix this all up in a blender and you get complexity. Most stuff doesn't come out of the book, but is only achieved by years of experience. The learning curve is very steep. Even the most experienced JavaScript gurus find building these types of applications to be very complex and challenging, and those are people having no problem at all building dynamic menus, components or the most advanced types of XSLT layouts. And I don't want to be rude, but there aren't many people who can do such stuff. But people without all the knowledge just don't know why it is that complex and I don't blame them, because it is too much to explain in some simple posts. Also Jesse James Garrett made that warning in his posting and for a reason. "Ajax applications inevitably involve running complex JavaScript code on the client. Making that complex code efficient and bug-free is not a task to be taken lightly, and better development tools and frameworks will be needed to help us meet that challenge." You really need a lot of experience in the involved techniques. Ajax does not have the learning curve CF developers are used to, and it will never get that learning curve because implementations vary on the type of application, and the techniques behind them not only change very often, but also depend on the browser and the developers experience. Developers cannot rely on the standards with for example IE in its current form. Ajax in the end is nothing more than an approach. It depends on the type of application, if you take the usual approach, the Ajax approach, or the RIA approach. If you have to take care of vector/video/audio/animation an RIA is the best solution, not Ajax. It is not a technique, or a technology. It is a different way of architecture in web applications. XMLHttpRequest is just a little piece of this approach. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199350 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > And I don't want to be rude, but there aren't many people who > can do such stuff. But people without all the knowledge just > don't know why it is that complex and I don't blame them, > because it is too much to explain in some simple posts. Also > Jesse James Garrett made that warning in his posting and for a reason. A little arrogant of you to say considering you aren't aware of everyone's abilities. I am sure many of us could pick up on it and just because it is challenging does not mean it is impossible. Plus, as a programmer, challenges are what keeps our jobs interesting! C++ was hard when I first was learning it, now its not too bad. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199351 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> You mean the tone of "not everybody can do it"? :) To be > honest, that is the just the case with Ajax. It isn't simple > due to the large combination of factors involved with > developing such applications. Any competent programmer can do this stuff. It's simply not that hard. It is, however, quite tedious, and the available development tools range from primitive to non-existent, and many people simply don't want to pay for the amount of development time often needed for complex DHTML solutions. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199358 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:50:14 -0500, Michael T. Tangorre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A little arrogant of you to say considering you aren't aware of everyone's > abilities. I am sure many of us could pick up on it and just because it is > challenging does not mean it is impossible. Plus, as a programmer, > challenges are what keeps our jobs interesting! C++ was hard when I first > was learning it, now its not too bad. This is one of those extremely rare occasions when I find myself in agreement with Micha. This isn't just a technology issue, there's a lot of application design considerations behind this stuff and it *is* hard. Like OO is hard. Sure, a few folks get it straight away and some folks struggle and eventually get enough of it to become competent but most people don't (they *think* they get it but...). Google Maps and so on requires more than competence. Stuff like that is not within the reach of the average programmer. Sorry, but that's a fact of life. Scott Meyers (of "Effective C++") summed it up nicely many years back by saying there are three types of programmers: private, protected and public. The private guys are the gurus who build the really cool foundation stuff. The protected guys package that up and make usable tools and libraries. The public guys build applications with those tools and libraries. He said the real problem is that we as an industry have not accepted this 'layering' of programmer skills and we don't structure projects accordingly - so we don't leverage the private / protected skills properly. It's not always a popular view but it's also shared by Joel Spolsky to some extent. During his "fireside chat" last night he talked about successful methodologies and said that they all rely on a "magic happens here" which is where smart people solve hard problems. He said that you cannot simply throw a load of "grunt" programmers at a project and expect it to succeed. Micha is just saying don't promise your boss you can write an application like Google Maps. Start small (and make sure you test in every browser to make sure your application degrades gracefully if it doesn't work perfectly). -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199362 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> This is one of those extremely rare occasions when I find > myself in agreement with Micha. This isn't just a technology > issue, there's a lot of application design considerations > behind this stuff and it *is* hard. Like OO is hard. Sure, a > few folks get it straight away and some folks struggle and > eventually get enough of it to become competent but most > people don't (they *think* they get it but...). > > Google Maps and so on requires more than competence. Stuff > like that is not within the reach of the average programmer. > Sorry, but that's a fact of life. Yes, compared to CF programming in general, DHTML interfaces are hard. Just because something is hard doesn't make it out of reach of the average programmer. I'm sorry, but you're simply setting the bar too low. Programming is relatively hard, compared to many other occupations! We have been developing applications like this for years. Any attendee of the DC CFUG/WAMMO groups can attest to that, as we would present them very frequently. Typically, the initial development would be done by extremely skilled people, but we would regularly bring on developers to maintain (and extend) these applications. These developers would typically be competent, but relatively inexperienced with DHTML development. And yet they would be able to learn what they needed to successfully maintain the applications! Imagine that! Interestingly enough, we found we could make more money by providing simpler interfaces for most applications - clients simply didn't see the value of the more powerful interface. So, we haven't really been working on these sorts of interfaces nearly as much lately as, say, two years ago. Perhaps now that it has a snappy buzzword, we'll see an upturn in people wanting that sort of functionality. > Micha is just saying don't promise your boss you can write an > application like Google Maps. Start small (and make sure you > test in every browser to make sure your application degrades > gracefully if it doesn't work perfectly). Wise words, I'll agree. But I'm not sure that's what he was saying, and it sure isn't what you said above. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199365 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:03:15 -0500, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Programming is relatively hard, compared to many other occupations! I think a lot of people in the CF community would agree that there are quite a few non-programmers in this community. > We have been developing applications like this for years. I'm not saying that *no* CFers can do this. > Typically, the initial development would be done by extremely > skilled people, but we would regularly bring on developers to maintain (and > extend) these applications. Which is exactly what I'm saying: you use protected or even private programmers to build this stuff and then public programmers to maintain it. > These developers would typically be competent, > but relatively inexperienced with DHTML development. Agreed. > And yet they would be > able to learn what they needed to successfully maintain the applications! > Imagine that! I'd sure hope so - that's exactly what I was saying. They can learn to be competent. You've confirmed exactly what I said. But you wouldn't expect them to be able to write it from scratch, right? That's the purview of the "extremely skilled" to use your words. > Wise words, I'll agree. But I'm not sure that's what he was saying, and it > sure isn't what you said above. Apparently it is since we seem to be in violent agreement on most points... -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199373 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> I think a lot of people in the CF community would agree that > there are quite a few non-programmers in this community. Writing CF is programming. While there may be many people whose first programming experience is with CF, once they start building applications they are programmers. Whether they are competent or not is another question. > I'd sure hope so - that's exactly what I was saying. They can > learn to be competent. You've confirmed exactly what I said. Unfortunately, that is not what you said. Here's what you said: "Stuff like that is not within the reach of the average programmer. Sorry, but that's a fact of life." I disagree with that. > Which is exactly what I'm saying: you use protected or even > private programmers to build this stuff and then public > programmers to maintain it. However, my point was that these "public" programmers, once they learned the technology, could then use it not just to make minor modifications, but to extend the application or even build a similar application from scratch! We had plenty of people who, once exposed to the concepts, understood them fully and could use them. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199375 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> -Original Message- > From: Rick Faircloth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:27 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: Ajax > > So that's the technologies involved with the demo apps on backbase.com... > xhtml, css, xmlhttprequest? Just remember with all of this talk about xmlhttprequest some of us have been doing this for years using winhttp. ;^) On the IE side of the fence this is really what HTA's (hypertext applications) are all about: a rich, fully functional presentation layer running on the client. I've recently been working on my biggest HTA yet - very capable and completely client-side. Contact with the middleware is done exclusively via post-up, XML-return. I never thought this was anything beyond "n-tiered" application development myself. I guess I like that somebody has given it a name, but I'm with those that just don't know why everybody thinks it such a new idea. ;^) Jim Davis ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199376 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> -Original Message- > From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 4:25 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: Ajax > > As a followup: > > Regarding Ajax, David Mendels of Macromedia stated the following, which > I totally agree with: > > "It is really, really, really hard to build something like Gmail and > Google Maps," said David Mendels, general manager of platform products > for Macromedia. "Google hired rocket scientists--they hired Adam > Bosworth, who invented DHTML when he was at Microsoft. Most companies > can't go and repeat what Google has done." > > I can only say, don't be fooled when making promises to your boss. Doing > Ajax on web application area is experts work. Doing Ajax on smaller > parts anyone can do. It depends really. I pride myself on being able to "do this stuff" - but the goal at first isn't to do the app, it's to build the components of it. Nueromancer is a good example as is the JSGatewayAPI and others: once you have abstractions of the tools required putting the rest together isn't all that hard. So, yes, building the APIs are "rocket science", but once they're out there and available we start building up steam. Jim Davis ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199378 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:10:42 -0500, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Stuff like that is not within the reach of the average programmer. Sorry, > but that's a fact of life." > > I disagree with that. You talked about "extremely skilled" people. "extremely skilled" is not the average programmer. Once there are simpler APIs - built by "extremely skilled" programmers then this stuff will move into the reach of the "average" programmer. Right now, today, those simpler APIs do not exist in any meaningful way so "stuff like that is not within the reach of the average programmer". -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199415 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> You talked about "extremely skilled" people. "extremely > skilled" is not the average programmer. Once there are > simpler APIs - built by "extremely skilled" programmers then > this stuff will move into the reach of the "average" programmer. > > Right now, today, those simpler APIs do not exist in any > meaningful way so "stuff like that is not within the reach of > the average programmer". I talked about "extremely skilled" people building these sorts of applications with no prior experience or exposure, but went on to say that competent, average people could do the same work after training and practice. I'm sorry, Sean, but no matter how you slice it, client-side JavaScript is just not that hard, whether you have nice APIs for managing and exchanging data or not. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199432 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Sean, Don't you think with the interest in Ajax shown on the list this week that those simpler API's are but mere months away? Most developers aren't trying to build another Google maps, they just want to build better forms and navigation. Rick Mason On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:24:09 -0800, Sean Corfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:10:42 -0500, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Stuff like that is not within the reach of the average programmer. Sorry, > > but that's a fact of life." > > > > I disagree with that. > > You talked about "extremely skilled" people. "extremely skilled" is > not the average programmer. Once there are simpler APIs - built by > "extremely skilled" programmers then this stuff will move into the > reach of the "average" programmer. > > Right now, today, those simpler APIs do not exist in any meaningful > way so "stuff like that is not within the reach of the average > programmer". > -- > Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ > Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ > Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! > > "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." > -- Margaret Atwood > > ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199435 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Doing some dynamic data recall with async requests is not the same as building an ajax application. A real ajax app has a single page, and never refreshes. Every click by a user initiates some event, that event is processed via the app controller, possibly resulting in a call for data from the server, and then the view is updated if needed. Doing that requires a understanding of UI development from a hard-core programming perspective, even if you have some stellar APIs to work with to simplify the mundane tasks. If you just want the former, you don't need much. You can probably do it all manually, or pick up something like Neuromancer and you can make your first request with literally 2 lines of code. But if you want to do it for real, the task ahead is far from trivial. Google Maps is a SIMPLE ajax app. GMail is more complex, but neither one is really very complicated when you get right down to it. There's what, maybe 15 views in GMail? Think about how many views you've got in a basic ecom backend. I think Sean is talking about the latter, while you and Dave are talking about the former. Both are valuable. One is complex, one is simple[r]. But lets not get into a pissing fight that an apple is better than a cow, unless we agree what the task at hand is. cheers, barneyb On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:11:24 -0500, Rick Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sean, > > Don't you think with the interest in Ajax shown on the list this week > that those simpler API's are but mere months away? > > Most developers aren't trying to build another Google maps, they just > want to build better forms and navigation. > > Rick Mason -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.319.6145 http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 50 invites. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199438 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> I think Sean is talking about the latter, while you and Dave > are talking about the former. Oh, no. Hardly. The applications I'm talking about were far more complicated than g[maps|mail]. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199439 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
Dave, I understand the direction you are heading at, .. but the difficulty in building these types of applications is not in knowing the technology. There is much more involved in knowing Javascript. There is no such thing as training, because the implementations vary alot. This is not only with Javascript, but also with all other involved techniques.Only with handson experience you know the weak spots in browsers. And ofcourse everyone can build a Gmail ... but that takes years of practice. Then again, today you see specializations, and this results in people not being able to master all what is available today. I know people who can make things in Flash I just cannot achieve. Same counts for Java, Director, Not because I don't know the language. I just miss a large part of handson experience which disables me from setting up a strong professional frame. The same counts for Ajax, ... everybody can do it, it just requires those people to invest a huge amount of time in multiple sides of the technology. It has nothing to do with arrogance (and that was the last thing I wanted to communicate), it is just a fact of life, that people don't have time to learn it all. It is just to much nowadays, and that is why people specialize into what I called "expert level". Do you agree with this? :) From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sat 3/19/2005 1:09 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Ajax > You talked about "extremely skilled" people. "extremely > skilled" is not the average programmer. Once there are > simpler APIs - built by "extremely skilled" programmers then > this stuff will move into the reach of the "average" programmer. > > Right now, today, those simpler APIs do not exist in any > meaningful way so "stuff like that is not within the reach of > the average programmer". I talked about "extremely skilled" people building these sorts of applications with no prior experience or exposure, but went on to say that competent, average people could do the same work after training and practice. I'm sorry, Sean, but no matter how you slice it, client-side JavaScript is just not that hard, whether you have nice APIs for managing and exchanging data or not. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199461 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> I understand the direction you are heading at, .. but the > difficulty in building these types of applications is not in > knowing the technology. > > There is much more involved in knowing Javascript. There is > no such thing as training, because the implementations vary > alot. This is not only with Javascript, but also with all > other involved techniques.Only with handson experience you > know the weak spots in browsers. And ofcourse everyone can > build a Gmail ... but that takes years of practice. > > Then again, today you see specializations, and this results > in people not being able to master all what is available > today. I know people who can make things in Flash I just > cannot achieve. Same counts for Java, Director, Not because I > don't know the language. I just miss a large part of handson > experience which disables me from setting up a strong > professional frame. > > The same counts for Ajax, ... everybody can do it, it just > requires those people to invest a huge amount of time in > multiple sides of the technology. It has nothing to do with > arrogance (and that was the last thing I wanted to > communicate), it is just a fact of life, that people don't > have time to learn it all. It is just to much nowadays, and > that is why people specialize into what I called "expert level". > > Do you agree with this? :) I agree with the basic idea, but disagree with the timeframes. Again, I don't think years of practice are necessary, and my beliefs are supported by my own experience with these sorts of applications. I do agree that you can't know everything, of course. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199484 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> They did a soft launch with Tommy Hilfiger (advertising > to come out shortly) > http://shop.tommy.com/shop?dsp=804&pcr=804&R=1366 As an aside on this, when it asks "Select your Tommy Hilfiger flag logo preference" if you select either position and then decide you don't want their logo (maybe you don't want people to know you're a brand whore after all? j/k) it won't allow you to switch back to the "no" option. > BTW I tried to convince them to use Flex, but they said > it was too expensive :-/ Too expensive for Tommy? Say it ain't so! -Justin Scott ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199519 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> Section 508 does not deny you using Javascript, > it only forces you to come up with alternative > ways of displaying data. IOW, writing two interfaces instead of one. -Justin Scott ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199518 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:59:17 -0500, Justin D. Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > They did a soft launch with Tommy Hilfiger (advertising > > to come out shortly) > > http://shop.tommy.com/shop?dsp=804&pcr=804&R=1366 > > As an aside on this, when it asks "Select your Tommy Hilfiger flag logo > preference" if you select either position and then decide you don't want > their logo (maybe you don't want people to know you're a brand whore after > all? j/k) it won't allow you to switch back to the "no" option. Yeah when you get into a point of no return like that you have to hit "clear form" - they went round and round on the usability of that I hear. I didn't design it. > > BTW I tried to convince them to use Flex, but they said > > it was too expensive :-/ > > Too expensive for Tommy? Say it ain't so! It's a third party app, so it was more of a "too expensive for the little guy selling the technology to the big guy" kind of thing. I have no idea how the money for it works but when I showed them flex they were like "yes yes!" then I told them the price they said "no no use the neuromancer thing". -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199523 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
No defining a different presentation layer. Just like people should do already with print, screen stylesheets and learn the markup to accommodate you in defining different media types. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Justin D. Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: maandag 21 maart 2005 4:59 To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Ajax > Section 508 does not deny you using Javascript, > it only forces you to come up with alternative > ways of displaying data. IOW, writing two interfaces instead of one. -Justin Scott ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199524 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
It is too expensive, imho. Folks keep saying that 12,000 isn't much, but that's not the whole picture. It's 12,000 per server up to 2 cpus. So for Tommy, if they were to deploy it load balanced, that's at least 24,000. How about a test environment? There's another 12,000, or is it 24,000 there so that their test environment matches production? Support package too? That's going to start adding up. Pretty soon, when deploying for large companies you've met or exceeded a person's yearly salary. Say a Flash developer who can also bring other value (intellectually and creatively) to the company. So creative person or presentation layer only technology that still needs you develop the application/business logic functionality? Of course it might not be like this at all, but those are some thoughts that go through my head. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 12:35 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ajax On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:59:17 -0500, Justin D. Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > They did a soft launch with Tommy Hilfiger (advertising > > to come out shortly) > > http://shop.tommy.com/shop?dsp=804&pcr=804&R=1366 > > As an aside on this, when it asks "Select your Tommy Hilfiger flag logo > preference" if you select either position and then decide you don't want > their logo (maybe you don't want people to know you're a brand whore after > all? j/k) it won't allow you to switch back to the "no" option. Yeah when you get into a point of no return like that you have to hit "clear form" - they went round and round on the usability of that I hear. I didn't design it. > > BTW I tried to convince them to use Flex, but they said > > it was too expensive :-/ > > Too expensive for Tommy? Say it ain't so! It's a third party app, so it was more of a "too expensive for the little guy selling the technology to the big guy" kind of thing. I have no idea how the money for it works but when I showed them flex they were like "yes yes!" then I told them the price they said "no no use the neuromancer thing". -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199528 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> > Too expensive for Tommy? Say it ain't so! > It is too expensive, imho. Folks keep saying that > 12,000 isn't much, but that's not the whole picture. My point was that they should be able to afford it with the prices they charge for their merchandise. A sort of irony because I have some "brand conscious" friends who sometimes ask why I don't wear "brands" and I tell them "it is too expensive, IMHO." -Justin Scott ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199531 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
I really hate to be rude, seeing as I've just rejoined the list after being unsubscribed for a year or so, but I really could swear that I read a post saying that there was now AN ENTIRE MAILING LIST dedicated to Ajax. The volume of this list is quite heavy enough without having to dig through all of this type of thing, isn't it? --Ferg -Original Message- From: Justin D. Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:11 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Ajax > > Too expensive for Tommy? Say it ain't so! > It is too expensive, imho. Folks keep saying that > 12,000 isn't much, but that's not the whole picture. My point was that they should be able to afford it with the prices they charge for their merchandise. A sort of irony because I have some "brand conscious" friends who sometimes ask why I don't wear "brands" and I tell them "it is too expensive, IMHO." -Justin Scott ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199539 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Handbags at dawn Rob! ;) MD On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:11:08 -0800, Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ok you guys don't go blasting Tommy - you'll get me in trouble ;) > > > It is too expensive, imho. Folks keep saying that 12,000 isn't much, but > > that's not the whole picture. > > > > It's 12,000 per server up to 2 cpus. > > > > So for Tommy, if they were to deploy it load balanced, that's at least > > 24,000. How about a test environment? There's another 12,000, or is it > > 24,000 there so that their test environment matches production? > > Actually, there is a Dev System, QA, Staging (for integration QA), and > then the production system with a couple quad processor servers (with > more to come). So it would've been like 7*12,000 = $84,000 - plus > training and support. > > I would also like to say that Flex would've been totally worth it, but > the company (the one who makes the tool) just couldn't swing it. The > "you'll save developemnt time" didn't work they just shipped most of > the work to India. > > -- > ~Blog~ > http://www.robrohan.com > ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ > http://cfeclipse.tigris.org > ~open source xslt IDE~ > http://treebeard.sourceforge.net > > ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199558 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Ok you guys don't go blasting Tommy - you'll get me in trouble ;) > It is too expensive, imho. Folks keep saying that 12,000 isn't much, but > that's not the whole picture. > > It's 12,000 per server up to 2 cpus. > > So for Tommy, if they were to deploy it load balanced, that's at least > 24,000. How about a test environment? There's another 12,000, or is it > 24,000 there so that their test environment matches production? Actually, there is a Dev System, QA, Staging (for integration QA), and then the production system with a couple quad processor servers (with more to come). So it would've been like 7*12,000 = $84,000 - plus training and support. I would also like to say that Flex would've been totally worth it, but the company (the one who makes the tool) just couldn't swing it. The "you'll save developemnt time" didn't work they just shipped most of the work to India. -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199554 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
do weee do weee do --- wahh wahh wahh do weee do weee do --- wahh wahh wah On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:15:06 +, Mark Drew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Handbags at dawn Rob! ;) > > MD > > -- ~Blog~ http://www.robrohan.com ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~ http://cfeclipse.tigris.org ~open source xslt IDE~ http://treebeard.sourceforge.net ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199581 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
One last comment .. made by Erik Arvidsson.. seems he agrees. "Very, very, very hard indeed. Writing a mail application is hard using any toolkit. (Just look at Mozilla Thunderbird.) The same applies to Google maps. Sure some things might have been easier with WinForms, Avalon or Lazslo but the application in itself is the biggest part of the development time and cost. The biggest short coming with HTML/XML and scripting is indeed the lack of good reusable components (and sometime a unified application framework). I think if IE supported DOM level 2 and XBL2 I think it would totally kill the alternative frameworks (as long as some the different platforms are compatible enough with each other)." Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199649 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
> One last comment .. made by Erik Arvidsson.. seems he agrees. > > "Very, very, very hard indeed. > > Writing a mail application is hard using any toolkit. (Just > look at Mozilla Thunderbird.) The same applies to Google > maps. Sure some things might have been easier with WinForms, > Avalon or Lazslo but the application in itself is the biggest > part of the development time and cost. > > The biggest short coming with HTML/XML and scripting is > indeed the lack of good reusable components (and sometime a > unified application framework). I think if IE supported DOM > level 2 and XBL2 I think it would totally kill the > alternative frameworks (as long as some the different > platforms are compatible enough with each other)." I'm not sure whether he's agreeing with you or with me. He says it's hard to write a mail application using any toolkit, not that it's especially hard to do it with DHTML. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199782 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
> I'm not sure whether he's agreeing with you or with me. He says it's hard to > write a mail application using any toolkit, not that it's especially hard to > do it with DHTML. Yeah, that was more the point I was trying to make. CF-generated HTML is an amazingly simple way to create feature-rich UIs, if you don't mind the poor user experience (because of page loads). Any kind of "real" UI (Ajax, Flash/Flex, Java, C#, etc) is going to take a lot more work than HTML, but you get a lot of benefits. And that's even if the toolkit you use has a well designed and documented API. You still have to deal with programming against that API, which is necessarily going to be a lot harder than simple HTML. Definitely a shift from web programing to "real" programming, and that's hard. cheers, barneyb -- Barney Boisvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 360.319.6145 http://www.barneyb.com/ Got Gmail? I have 50 invites. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199789 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
Heh sorry if this thread was dead and burried an I resurrected (bored, sifting through the cf-talk archives). On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:37:37 +0100, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One last comment .. made by Erik Arvidsson.. seems he agrees. > > "Very, very, very hard indeed. > > Writing a mail application is hard using any toolkit. (Just look at > Mozilla Thunderbird.) The same applies to Google maps. Sure some things > might have been easier with WinForms, Avalon or Lazslo but the > application in itself is the biggest part of the development time and > cost. > > The biggest short coming with HTML/XML and scripting is indeed the lack > of good reusable components (and sometime a unified application > framework). I think if IE supported DOM level 2 and XBL2 I think it > would totally kill the alternative frameworks (as long as some the > different platforms are compatible enough with each other)." I thought i would focus on one key aspect that Erik has outlined. Re-usable Components. There is only a handful online that are actually worth anything, Eriks got one of them. The key aspect of what made AJAX - or what i like to call - DHTML Remoting, was that GMAIL made it look easy enough (in terms of UI not serverside). You compare Flex, Flash, Lazlo, Cocoon, .NET Window Forms etc list goes on...against Javascript and it feels like comparing a monkey to a human. Sure monkey can do certain things a human can, but it needs to be trained hard and taken lots of time / investement to do these things. Javascript is horrible, I am sorry but its borderline bugware as the amount of hurdles you have to overcome is sheer madness. As Micha pointed out, knowing which hurdles to jump and which ones to dodge are the key, and you can't get this from a course or textbook. Its something that you have to sit down daily and read website after website / forum after forum to grasp and hold in check. basic Behaviour building isn't that hard, architecting an application like GMAIL or a serious JavaScript driven UI framework is extremly hard - its why there aren't many around as its just a nightmare to get off the ground. I've build approx 4 of them, one using a combination of CF Custom Tags and JavaScript to emulate what FLEX does now - i ended up throwing in the towel as its just a big waste of time and energy. Reason I know its always going to be held hostage to a browser. JavaScript imho is a hard language to architect, not code. -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com http://www.flexcoder.com (Coming Soon) ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:200936 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
Soon we will see more applications on the market featuring functionality supporting the idea of a "reusable user interface" because that is what Ajax really is, but only from a specific area of people who are geek enough to spend the time. I have seen some promising examples in the mail lately :) Not to mention I am hoping to release my own part in some months which also features the spi approach. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 31 maart 2005 13:06 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ajax Heh sorry if this thread was dead and burried an I resurrected (bored, sifting through the cf-talk archives). On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:37:37 +0100, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One last comment .. made by Erik Arvidsson.. seems he agrees. > > "Very, very, very hard indeed. > > Writing a mail application is hard using any toolkit. (Just look at > Mozilla Thunderbird.) The same applies to Google maps. Sure some things > might have been easier with WinForms, Avalon or Lazslo but the > application in itself is the biggest part of the development time and > cost. > > The biggest short coming with HTML/XML and scripting is indeed the lack > of good reusable components (and sometime a unified application > framework). I think if IE supported DOM level 2 and XBL2 I think it > would totally kill the alternative frameworks (as long as some the > different platforms are compatible enough with each other)." I thought i would focus on one key aspect that Erik has outlined. Re-usable Components. There is only a handful online that are actually worth anything, Eriks got one of them. The key aspect of what made AJAX - or what i like to call - DHTML Remoting, was that GMAIL made it look easy enough (in terms of UI not serverside). You compare Flex, Flash, Lazlo, Cocoon, .NET Window Forms etc list goes on...against Javascript and it feels like comparing a monkey to a human. Sure monkey can do certain things a human can, but it needs to be trained hard and taken lots of time / investement to do these things. Javascript is horrible, I am sorry but its borderline bugware as the amount of hurdles you have to overcome is sheer madness. As Micha pointed out, knowing which hurdles to jump and which ones to dodge are the key, and you can't get this from a course or textbook. Its something that you have to sit down daily and read website after website / forum after forum to grasp and hold in check. basic Behaviour building isn't that hard, architecting an application like GMAIL or a serious JavaScript driven UI framework is extremly hard - its why there aren't many around as its just a nightmare to get off the ground. I've build approx 4 of them, one using a combination of CF Custom Tags and JavaScript to emulate what FLEX does now - i ended up throwing in the towel as its just a big waste of time and energy. Reason I know its always going to be held hostage to a browser. JavaScript imho is a hard language to architect, not code. -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com http://www.flexcoder.com (Coming Soon) ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:200946 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:49:33 +0200, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Soon we will see more applications on the market featuring functionality > supporting the idea of a "reusable user interface" because that is what > Ajax really is, but only from a specific area of people who are geek > enough to spend the time. > > I have seen some promising examples in the mail lately :) Not to mention > I am hoping to release my own part in some months which also features > the spi approach. Yeah, it requires some people to pioneer its efforts up front in a transparent enough manner in order to give that puppy some flight. I heard Amazon are using its concept and while XmlHttpRequest is all nice and cute to use and works on lots of browsers etc... that aside, you still have to use the data from your remoting in a rich UI approach - thats where people need to get onboard and understand something others have figured out... DHTML (remoting aside) is going to hurt to build. Bindows.net and DOMAPI do a nice enough job in regards to Controls/container development and all the power to them. Just there is more to AJAX than meets the eye imho. -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com http://www.flexcoder.com (Coming Soon) ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:200948 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax
It becomes interesting if the approach is built into the application as a service layer, instead of features or some enabled widgets on top of a purely static approach (which there are often off). I can throw in my xmlhttprequest treeview, menu, wysiwyg widget, but I see that only as parts of the approach. The underlying surface should be in that approach too. In the perfect situation you only load the app once, and update it from then. That is the stuff that will tickle your balls. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - -Original Message- From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 31 maart 2005 14:07 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Ajax On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:49:33 +0200, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Soon we will see more applications on the market featuring functionality > supporting the idea of a "reusable user interface" because that is what > Ajax really is, but only from a specific area of people who are geek > enough to spend the time. > > I have seen some promising examples in the mail lately :) Not to mention > I am hoping to release my own part in some months which also features > the spi approach. Yeah, it requires some people to pioneer its efforts up front in a transparent enough manner in order to give that puppy some flight. I heard Amazon are using its concept and while XmlHttpRequest is all nice and cute to use and works on lots of browsers etc... that aside, you still have to use the data from your remoting in a rich UI approach - thats where people need to get onboard and understand something others have figured out... DHTML (remoting aside) is going to hurt to build. Bindows.net and DOMAPI do a nice enough job in regards to Controls/container development and all the power to them. Just there is more to AJAX than meets the eye imho. -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com http://www.flexcoder.com (Coming Soon) ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:200952 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax
ehehe yeah, DHTML can be fun, i'm still partial to it as i've done some fun UI concepts in ol DHTML (translated well into Flash aswell) Just i get a bit annoyed in many ways at how everyone suddenly throws the word AJAX like its this awesome piece of technology that people haven't used properly or has gone un-used for generations of thine web. Its been used (under different names) and i've seen some much smarter apps in play using XmlhttpRequest (even the DHTML guru Erik - i think he has done enough work in dhtml to earn that title - has done some really interesting approaches with it, especially with Bindows.net) Key aspect is, AJAX is only 10% of the overall equation there is another 90% of "other" stuff that needs to co-incide before you can start raving how successful the concept is going to be. Just last night I had someone MSN me with "dude check out AJAX, its the ducks nutts" - I asked "why", reply "you can do server-side remoting like flash!" to which i then reply: "ok, then what..." silence. Thats my point. I am still waiting Micha to see your DHTML CMS thingy hehehehehe... On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:16:34 +0200, Micha Schopman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It becomes interesting if the approach is built into the application as > a service layer, instead of features or some enabled widgets on top of a > purely static approach (which there are often off). > > I can throw in my xmlhttprequest treeview, menu, wysiwyg widget, but I > see that only as parts of the approach. The underlying surface should be > in that approach too. In the perfect situation you only load the app > once, and update it from then. > > That is the stuff that will tickle your balls. > > Micha Schopman > Project Manager > > Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort > Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 > KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 > > > > - > Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren > de interactie met uw doelgroep. > Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer > informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl > > -------- > - > > -Original Message- > From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: donderdag 31 maart 2005 14:07 > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: Ajax > > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:49:33 +0200, Micha Schopman > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Soon we will see more applications on the market featuring > functionality > > supporting the idea of a "reusable user interface" because that is > what > > Ajax really is, but only from a specific area of people who are geek > > enough to spend the time. > > > > I have seen some promising examples in the mail lately :) Not to > mention > > I am hoping to release my own part in some months which also features > > the spi approach. > > Yeah, it requires some people to pioneer its efforts up front in a > transparent enough manner in order to give that puppy some flight. I > heard Amazon are using its concept and while XmlHttpRequest is all > nice and cute to use and works on lots of browsers etc... that aside, > you still have to use the data from your remoting in a rich UI > approach - thats where people need to get onboard and understand > something others have figured out... DHTML (remoting aside) is going > to hurt to build. > > Bindows.net and DOMAPI do a nice enough job in regards to > Controls/container development and all the power to them. Just there > is more to AJAX than meets the eye imho. > > -- > Regards, > Scott Barnes > http://www.mossyblog.com > http://www.flexcoder.com (Coming Soon) > > ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:201097 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax tutorials
I've found a few and will post them to the Ajax list as soon as I get back home. >Has anyone found an Ajax step-by-step tutorial? I am trying to explain the >technology to my team over here and they're hung up on the uninteresting >parts of it. > >Thanks, > >Don ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199184 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax tutorials
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:12:18 -, Smith, Don , CTR , WHS/ITMD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Has anyone found an Ajax step-by-step tutorial? I am trying to explain the > technology to my team over here and they're hung up on the uninteresting > parts of it. Bear in mind that "AJAX" is an acronym applied to an old concept - it is not a product. Google turns up some good stuff: http://www.google.com/search?q=xmlhttprequest+tutorial -- Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." -- Margaret Atwood ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199187 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax tutorials
http://www.webpasties.com/xmlHttpRequest/ is one of the easiest intros to the xmlHTTPRequest that i've come across. And to Sean's point...yes, it's like DHTML in that DHTML itself is not a technology, but a mix of existing technologies (in the case of DHTML, JS and CSS). On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:52:28 -0800, Sean Corfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:12:18 -, Smith, Don , CTR , WHS/ITMD > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Has anyone found an Ajax step-by-step tutorial? I am trying to explain the > > technology to my team over here and they're hung up on the uninteresting > > parts of it. > > Bear in mind that "AJAX" is an acronym applied to an old concept - it > is not a product. > > Google turns up some good stuff: > > http://www.google.com/search?q=xmlhttprequest+tutorial > -- > Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/ > Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/ > Got Gmail? -- I have 50, yes 50, invites to give away! > > "If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive." > -- Margaret Atwood > > ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199192 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax tutorials
And that xmlHttpRequest gives you much and much more power and functionality than hidden iframes do. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199195 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax tutorials
Sean Corfield wrote: > Bear in mind that "AJAX" is an acronym applied to an old concept - it > is not a product. Yup, it's basically an ad-hoc version of RPC. Or at least that's how people will inevitably end up using it. I find the whole fuss people are making about it just a little much myself. K. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199535 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Ajax tutorials
" Yup, it's basically an ad-hoc version of RPC. Or at least that's how people will inevitably end up using it. I find the whole fuss people are making about it just a little much myself." That is definitely not Ajax. Ajax is much more than simple remote procedure calls. Micha Schopman Project Manager Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388 KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380 - Modern Media, Making You Interact Smarter. Onze oplossingen verbeteren de interactie met uw doelgroep. Wilt u meer omzet, lagere kosten of een beter service niveau? Voor meer informatie zie www.modernmedia.nl - ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:199538 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Ajax tutorials
Micha Schopman wrote:
> " Yup, it's basically an ad-hoc version of RPC. Or at least that's how
> people will inevitably end up using it. I find the whole fuss people are
> making about it just a little much myself."
>
> That is definitely not Ajax. Ajax is much more than simple remote
> procedure calls.
No, it is. I didn't say that it was just RPC (which is hardly simple), I
said that's how people would end up using it.
Here's what AJAX boils down to: using XMLHttpRequest to pull data from
the server. How this will probably end up being (ab)used to do is to
implement some kind of ad-hoc RPC mechanism by abusing HTTP's GET verb.
Christ, I've been doing stuff like this for years (albeit *not* abusing
GET), the only difference being that it's been returning JavaScript to
execute rather than a block of raw data. And all my requests were
naturally asynchronous. Heck, here's the code I use too:
function JSRequest(responder)
{
return function(args)
{
var parent = document.getElementsByTagName("body")[0];
// Remove any existing request block, if possible.
try
{
var old = document.getElementById("jsreqScript");
if (old)
parent.removeChild(old);
}
catch (ex) { /* Ignore */ }
// Build the call string, appending on any arguments.
var call = responder;
for (var name in args)
call += (call.indexOf("?") == -1 ? "?" : "&") +
escape(name) + "=" escape(args[name]);
// Build the new script element and put it in the head. The
// script is automatically fetched and ran.
var script = document.createElement("script");
script.id= "jsreqScript";
script.src = call;
script.type = "text/javascript";
script.defer = true;
parent.appendChild(script);
}
}
To use it, I just do something like this:
var GetUserDetails =
JSRequest("http://example.com/remote/getUserDetails.cfm";);
GetUserDetails({id: 5});
And I can do everything with that that you can do with AJAX. And I do
mean *everything* because, at least with the IE implementation, you
can't use POST, which means no complex data, and all the calls need to
be idempotent. As I said, AJAX isn't interesting, not in the slightest.
K.
~|
Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking
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