RE: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
I am writing in spaghetti code because the client is not paying me enough to do otherwise. When you get good at it, you can't help but write OO-inspired code for all but the most trivial applications. Writing good code (OO or otherwise) will always be faster than writing crap. (Assuming you want the program to work and you still have that job.) Stick with it and you'll get there. Mark -Original Message- From: Aaron Roberson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 8:31 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't @Dean A self-posting form is a view page with a form on it that has the action set to itself (or left blank, which is the same). The problem with it is that 95% of the time people put business logic right into the view page, hence they are not separating out the logic from the view (separation of concerns). As Dinner has stated you can use cfincludes or even cflocation to keep the business logic on a separate page for better maintainability, but for most spaghetti coders the whole purpose of self-posting forms is to not have to create a new page. Spaghetti coders like to keep all the meatballs, noodles and sauce mixed together because it takes less time to plan and organize, which speeds up development, but makes it almost impossible to maintain. BTW, I have been a spaghetti coder all the way up until now and I am currently only working on one project where I have implemented OOP for the entire application. Also, I am not a computer science major (though I may minor in it eventually) but I am learning OOP just to get my AS at my local junior college. In fact, I am working on a website right now that I am writing in spaghetti code because the client is not paying me enough to do otherwise. -Aaron ~| Deploy Web Applications Quickly across the enterprise with ColdFusion MX7 Flex 2 Free Trial http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJU Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273704 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
Mark, You are absolutely right. Once I get a little more fluent with OO the client will not be able to pay me enough to write crappy code. ~| Create Web Applications With ColdFusion MX7 Flex 2. Build powerful, scalable RIAs. Free Trial http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJS Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273731 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
On 3/23/07, Dean L wrote: back to the same form (controller)? Even if you are using a framework, your requests are typically routed back through a single page. Someone else had made a similar statement regarding self-posting forms and I'm just don't understand where that is coming from. I think that at the core, there is nothing wrong with posting to a page, but that sorta lends itself to actually putting business logic in the display... FWIW, I don't think there is anything wrong with self-posting forms, so long as you've got stuff organized good- which, heck, could just be using includes-- that's how I used to do it. Was easy to find stuff... Not that my code is organized... :-) It's all about the abstraction, I reckon. I like that word. heh. ~| ColdFusion MX7 and Flex 2 Build sales marketing dashboard RIAâs for your business. Upgrade now http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2?sdid=RVJT Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273641 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
@Dean A self-posting form is a view page with a form on it that has the action set to itself (or left blank, which is the same). The problem with it is that 95% of the time people put business logic right into the view page, hence they are not separating out the logic from the view (separation of concerns). As Dinner has stated you can use cfincludes or even cflocation to keep the business logic on a separate page for better maintainability, but for most spaghetti coders the whole purpose of self-posting forms is to not have to create a new page. Spaghetti coders like to keep all the meatballs, noodles and sauce mixed together because it takes less time to plan and organize, which speeds up development, but makes it almost impossible to maintain. BTW, I have been a spaghetti coder all the way up until now and I am currently only working on one project where I have implemented OOP for the entire application. Also, I am not a computer science major (though I may minor in it eventually) but I am learning OOP just to get my AS at my local junior college. In fact, I am working on a website right now that I am writing in spaghetti code because the client is not paying me enough to do otherwise. -Aaron ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273679 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
On Thursday 22 Mar 2007, Jonathan Block wrote: Why do so many articles get published in the CFMX world about OOP. Because people are building large applications. Because people want to build applications that can be understood. Because people want applications that are not brittle when changed. I've read though several, not going to mention names here... but you read it and it makes you think.. wow .. i thought I understood OOP but maybe I don't. Factories... abstraction... models... patterns... that's too much crap for someone to learn. Yup. And in general in OO training you might have had at Uni. or whatever is totally useless for a modern environment, where you do have Factories and Workers and so on. I feel like anybody who's trying to learn CFMX need not worry about whether or not they know OOP or any of these crazy buzzwords. Your feelings are spot on. Is there such a resource? There are several blogs and web sites out there (mine included :-) ) that talk about how to build things in a nice OO fashion. The rouble is, 'recommended way' means very different things to different people writing different applications. If all you're doing is slinging the results of 'select *' into a HTML table, there's no point writing a whole multi-tier'ed, dependancy-injected, object-relation-modeled CFML application. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to globally streamline cutting-edge channels On: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| ColdFusion MX7 and Flex 2 Build sales marketing dashboard RIAâs for your business. Upgrade now http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2?sdid=RVJT Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273493 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
Hi Jonathan, if it is two tier architecture, with out OOP knowledge u can build CFML web sites . if you want to seperate business logic from presentation layer and data layer,u have to go for CFCs. it is worth to follow OOP concepts ,it saves ur programmers time(Inheritence) and gives security(abstraction) and reduce the reccurance of coding(polymorphism). there is no rule that u have to implement coldfusion on oops concepts. u can implement on procedural code,if u dont have skilled programmers and if it is simple application. hope the following link make you sense. http://www.quackit.com/coldfusion/tutorial/coldfusion_components.cfm Thanks Srinivas On 3/23/07, Jonathan Block [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do so many articles get published in the CFMX world about OOP. I've read though several, not going to mention names here... but you read it and it makes you think.. wow .. i thought I understood OOP but maybe I don't. Factories... abstraction... models... patterns... that's too much crap for someone to learn. I feel like anybody who's trying to learn CFMX need not worry about whether or not they know OOP or any of these crazy buzzwords. If we think OOP is important, or any other buzz word for that matter, we really aught to make a simple application that shows you the recommended way to do something in CFMX. Is there such a resource? Jon ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 The most significant release in over 10 years. Upgrade see new features. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJR Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273497 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
Jacob, I agree that those who make frameworks should focus more on making them more approachable. There is quite a debate regarding XML vs. programmatic configurations and I lean on the side of programattic configs because most XML configs introduce vender specific terms and mark up that you have to learn. However, the time and energy it takes to learn the configs to leverage the power of any framework will end up paying for itself in the end. For those who would like to continue writing poorly architectured code (if you use any architecture at all!) can continue doing so if they like, but don't expect to get paid more than $45,000/yr. However, I plead with you to at least learn the basics of the MVC design pattern. Even if you throw all of your crummy code in each layer, without any CFCs or OO, do yourself a favor and seperate out your business logic (model) from your view and use a controller layer for your action pages (just say NO to self posting forms). Regardless, one must keep in mind that you can use the MVC design pattern without a lick of OOP, can use OOP without a implementing a single framework, but cannot get paid the big bucks to write less code and build more applications using frameworks which do approx. 60% of the work for you. MVC NEQ OOP AND OOP NEQ frameworks. Jonathan - quit winning about how hard it is to learn OOP and avail yourself of the plethora of resources available to you. Coders are lazy, but they are not stupid. Neither are you! You can learn it - every other computer science major has learned OOP to some degree. -Aaron On 3/22/07, Jacob Munson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, actually, this isn't entirely true. The idea of a controller predates MVC, and was commonly used in CGI programs written in procedural languages. For example, one of the first primitive web applications I wrote was in Visual Basic (!), and it was modelled after the example VB code provided with WebSite, an early Windows web server. It consisted of a main subroutine which acted as a controller, using URL parameters to invoke other specific subroutines, which were part of the same compiled executable. Thanks Dave, that is what I meant. If you look at the Java world, I've heard there truly are hundreds of frameworks. And from what you've said, the idea of a controller is not new to Fusebox nor ColdFusion. I don't want to paint myself as a frameworks basher, if people find them valuable, more power to them. I just think the frameworks authors could put more effort into making their framework approachable, and one way to do that is to use common langauge that everybody understands. It's already asking a lot for someone to learn a new XML dialect, and how to properly configure/use said framework. But throwing new terms into the mix seems unnecessary, imo. -- My Sites: http://www.techfeed.net/blog/ http://www.cfquickdocs.com/ http://cfformprotect.riaforge.org/ ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273590 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
every other computer science major has learned OOP to some degree. Yeah, and even us uneducated rubes get it eventually;) Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com ~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273609 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
On 3/23/07, Aaron Roberson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (just say NO to self posting forms). Aaron, I'm a little confused. If you are using a controller to traffic your requests to your different objects and methods, are you not posting back to the same form (controller)? Even if you are using a framework, your requests are typically routed back through a single page. Someone else had made a similar statement regarding self-posting forms and I'm just don't understand where that is coming from. Thanks, Dean -- __ Dean Lawrence, CIO/Partner Internet Data Technology 888.GET.IDT1 ext. 701 * fax: 888.438.4381 http://www.idatatech.com/ Corporate Internet Development and Marketing Specialists ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 The most significant release in over 10 years. Upgrade see new features. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJR Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273611 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
Why do so many articles get published in the CFMX world about OOP. Because, for many CF programmers who don't know other languages, it's a new (and potentially powerful) thing. I've read though several, not going to mention names here... but you read it and it makes you think.. wow .. i thought I understood OOP but maybe I don't. Factories... abstraction... models... patterns... that's too much crap for someone to learn. I feel like anybody who's trying to learn CFMX need not worry about whether or not they know OOP or any of these crazy buzzwords. If we think OOP is important, or any other buzz word for that matter, we really aught to make a simple application that shows you the recommended way to do something in CFMX. That too much crap is what people using practically every other mainstream programming language learn as a matter of course. So it can't be that hard! If you're trying to learn CFML, and don't know OOP, and haven't learned any other languages, that can be tough. But these aren't just crazy buzzwords, they're useful descriptions for how to solve problems. If, for example, I wanted to explain to you how a web application works, I wouldn't say you don't need to understand HTTP or forms or HTML or any of these crazy buzzwords. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| ColdFusion MX7 by Adobe® Dyncamically transform webcontent into Adobe PDF with new ColdFusion MX7. Free Trial. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJV Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273425 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
On 3/22/07, Jonathan Block [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do so many articles get published in the CFMX world about OOP. I've read though several, not going to mention names here... but you read it and it makes you think.. wow .. i thought I understood OOP but maybe I don't. Factories... abstraction... models... patterns... that's too much crap for someone to learn. I feel like anybody who's trying to learn CFMX need not worry about whether or not they know OOP or any of these crazy buzzwords. If we think OOP is important, or any other buzz word for that matter, we really aught to make a simple application that shows you the recommended way to do something in CFMX. Is there such a resource? I think the problem is that recommended is a very subjective term. There's no one right way to do anything. There are a number of good OO intro resources... off the top of my head: http://www.cfoop.org/ http://www.dougboude.com/documents/dougboudeslexicon.cfm Volume 1 Issue 2 of the FAQU (http://fusionauthority.com/quarterly/) and basically just reading (and asking) questions on forums. this forum, model-glue, fusebox, etc. Nobody can sit down and say here's the exact right way to do this specific task. Trust me, I wish that they could :) -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| ColdFusion MX7 by Adobe® Dyncamically transform webcontent into Adobe PDF with new ColdFusion MX7. Free Trial. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJV Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273426 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
It's funny that you mention that, we've started a discussion about just that on the Model-Glue list. Want to put together a good (and usable/useful) sample application built upon some 'best practices' concepts that is a) easy to understand, b) well documented, and c) can be extended and attached to an existing application. Steve Cutter Blades Adobe Certified Professional Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer _ http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Jonathan Block wrote: Why do so many articles get published in the CFMX world about OOP. I've read though several, not going to mention names here... but you read it and it makes you think.. wow .. i thought I understood OOP but maybe I don't. Factories... abstraction... models... patterns... that's too much crap for someone to learn. I feel like anybody who's trying to learn CFMX need not worry about whether or not they know OOP or any of these crazy buzzwords. If we think OOP is important, or any other buzz word for that matter, we really aught to make a simple application that shows you the recommended way to do something in CFMX. Is there such a resource? Jon ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273427 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
Why do so many articles get published in the CFMX world about OOP. Because OOP rocks. I would dispute your statement though; OOP is less prevalent in CF than in other languages (from what I hear anyway). I feel like anybody who's trying to learn CFMX need not worry about whether or not they know OOP or any of these crazy buzzwords. I think CF is pretty friendly for beginners, moreso than a lot of other languages...just my opinion though. If we think OOP is important, or any other buzz word for that matter, we really aught to make a simple application that shows you the recommended way to do something in CFMX. Is there such a resource? For cf/oop, check out cfoop.org. It's a good place to get started. -- Josh ~| Create Web Applications With ColdFusion MX7 Flex 2. Build powerful, scalable RIAs. Free Trial http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJS Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273429 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
I've always felt that learning OO for a specific language isn't the best way. To learn the theories and concepts behind it and than find guidance how to implement it properly in whatever language you're using makes for a more solid grasp of the basics. @@ two cents !k -Original Message- From: Jonathan Block [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: You think you know OOP.. but you don't Why do so many articles get published in the CFMX world about OOP. I've read though several, not going to mention names here... but you read it and it makes you think.. wow .. i thought I understood OOP but maybe I don't. Factories... abstraction... models... patterns... that's too much crap for someone to learn. I feel like anybody who's trying to learn CFMX need not worry about whether or not they know OOP or any of these crazy buzzwords. If we think OOP is important, or any other buzz word for that matter, we really aught to make a simple application that shows you the recommended way to do something in CFMX. Is there such a resource? Jon ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 The most significant release in over 10 years. Upgrade see new features. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJR Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273430 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
If you're trying to learn CFML, and don't know OOP, and haven't learned any other languages, that can be tough. But these aren't just crazy buzzwords, they're useful descriptions for how to solve problems. I agree with most of your post, Dave. But one thing that bothers me about the 100 CF frameworks out there is that often times these guys make up their own dialect instead of trying to use existing terms that mean the same thing. I'm not a frameworks expert, but from the reading I've done, Fusebox and Model Glue each introduce new terms for concepts that have been around for a long time (for example, fuse and all of its variants). I really wish people would stop trying to be cool, and just use existing standard language. -- My Sites: http://www.techfeed.net/blog/ http://www.cfquickdocs.com/ http://cfformprotect.riaforge.org/ ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273432 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
If you're trying to learn CFML, and don't know OOP, and haven't learned any other languages, that can be tough. But these aren't just crazy buzzwords, they're useful descriptions for how to solve problems. I agree with most of your post, Dave. But one thing that bothers me about the 100 CF frameworks out there is that often times these guys make up their own dialect instead of trying to use existing terms that mean the same thing. I'm not a frameworks expert, but from the reading I've done, Fusebox and Model Glue each introduce new terms for concepts that have been around for a long time (for example, fuse and all of its variants). I really wish people would stop trying to be cool, and just use existing standard language. All the more reason to learn the crazy buzzwords. It's important to understand terms of art in programming just like any other profession. That said, I haven't seen any examples of this with Model-Glue that I can think of. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| Create Web Applications With ColdFusion MX7 Flex 2. Build powerful, scalable RIAs. Free Trial http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJS Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273441 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
On 3/22/07, Jacob Munson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you're trying to learn CFML, and don't know OOP, and haven't learned any other languages, that can be tough. But these aren't just crazy buzzwords, they're useful descriptions for how to solve problems. I agree with most of your post, Dave. But one thing that bothers me about the 100 CF frameworks out there is that often times these guys make up their own dialect instead of trying to use existing terms that mean the same thing. I'm not a frameworks expert, but from the reading I've done, Fusebox and Model Glue each introduce new terms for concepts that have been around for a long time (for example, fuse and all of its variants). I really wish people would stop trying to be cool, and just use existing standard language. do you just like bashing frameworks for the sake of bashing something or is it more for the attention it gets you? fusebox came about LONG before there was any sort of OO integration into CF. the concept of a fuse and a circuit had (and to this day really have) little if nothing at ALL to do with any sort of OO concepts. fusebox was a procedural framework. It still -is- (mostly) a procedural framework. yes, you can write fusebox in an OO style (Sean has samples on his blog showing the structure of a traditional (procedural) fusebox app, an MVC fusebox app, and an OO fusebox app). i can't speak for model-glue as i've not done much more than scratch the surface of it...but to suggest that the authors of fusebox were trying to be cool by introducing new terminology instead of using existing terminology is just ridiculously silly since there was no existing terminology to describe a fuse or a circuit at the time the framework was created. from the little i know of Model-Glue, it uses terms like Model...Controller... those aren't new. what specific language is there in Model-Glue that you object to? -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 The most significant release in over 10 years. Upgrade see new features. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJR Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273443 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
I agree with most of your post, Dave. But one thing that bothers me about the 100 CF frameworks out there is that often times these guys make up their own dialect instead of trying to use existing terms that mean the same thing. I'm not a frameworks expert, but from the reading I've done, Fusebox and Model Glue each introduce new terms for concepts that have been around for a long time (for example, fuse and all of its variants). I really wish people would stop trying to be cool, and just use existing standard language. I have to disagree to an extent. Of all the frameworks in CF that I have seen, each attempts to leverage methodologies proven in other languages and bring them to CF (MVC, ORM, etc.). Inside each framework, each attempts to communicate the moving bits as best they can as there is not always a 1-1 relationship with other languages. For example, in many event driven applications you either broadcast an 'event' or broadcast a 'message'. In both MG and MII, the exact names change, but the intent is carried through. Learning CF has nothing to do with learning a framework. Leveraging a framework or a design pattern helps developers solve specific problems they encounter. Too much business logic tied to your display? Use the MVC pattern (and perhaps a MVC framework). How someone learns CF is based on a myriad of factors and varies greatly from person to person. Each of these Buzz words solves REAL problems that developers face day to day. The Buzz words are buzz words in CF, but have long since become standard practice in most modern languages. My 2 cents Rich Kroll ~| ColdFusion MX7 and Flex 2 Build sales marketing dashboard RIAâs for your business. Upgrade now http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2?sdid=RVJT Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273446 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
i can't speak for model-glue as i've not done much more than scratch the surface of it...but to suggest that the authors of fusebox were trying to be cool by introducing new terminology instead of using existing terminology is just ridiculously silly since there was no existing terminology to describe a fuse or a circuit at the time the framework was created. Well, actually, this isn't entirely true. The idea of a controller predates MVC, and was commonly used in CGI programs written in procedural languages. For example, one of the first primitive web applications I wrote was in Visual Basic (!), and it was modelled after the example VB code provided with WebSite, an early Windows web server. It consisted of a main subroutine which acted as a controller, using URL parameters to invoke other specific subroutines, which were part of the same compiled executable. That said, I don't think there was anything wrong in using fuse, circuit, etc, because those names were implementation-specific. But even then, there was very little new under the sun. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! This email has been processed by SmoothZap - www.smoothwall.net ~| Create robust enterprise, web RIAs. Upgrade integrate Adobe Coldfusion MX7 with Flex 2 http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJP Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273447 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
On 3/22/07, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i can't speak for model-glue as i've not done much more than scratch the surface of it...but to suggest that the authors of fusebox were trying to be cool by introducing new terminology instead of using existing terminology is just ridiculously silly since there was no existing terminology to describe a fuse or a circuit at the time the framework was created. Well, actually, this isn't entirely true. The idea of a controller predates MVC, and was commonly used in CGI programs written in procedural languages. For example, one of the first primitive web applications I wrote was in Visual Basic (!), and it was modelled after the example VB code provided with WebSite, an early Windows web server. It consisted of a main subroutine which acted as a controller, using URL parameters to invoke other specific subroutines, which were part of the same compiled executable. That said, I don't think there was anything wrong in using fuse, circuit, etc, because those names were implementation-specific. But even then, there was very little new under the sun. Fair enough. I guess I went to the -other- extreme :) I'll still take issue with the notion that the authors of the framework are intentionally introducing new terminology with the explicit intent of being cool. And the notion that there are 100 coldfusion frameworks :D -- Charlie Griefer ...All the world shall be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with a swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed. ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273451 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
Very well put Richard. I would also add that I don't think the use of Buzz Words here is fair. It connotes a sense of meaninglessness about the words or phrases involved, and these OO terms have longs since left the realm of buzz word, in my opinion. You'll have to drink from the Firehose unless you drill down and check the dashboard to see why the bloatware bubbled up from the bake-off. - From a Dilbert strip Now those are some buzz words! Chris Richard Kroll wrote: I agree with most of your post, Dave. But one thing that bothers me about the 100 CF frameworks out there is that often times these guys make up their own dialect instead of trying to use existing terms that mean the same thing. I'm not a frameworks expert, but from the reading I've done, Fusebox and Model Glue each introduce new terms for concepts that have been around for a long time (for example, fuse and all of its variants). I really wish people would stop trying to be cool, and just use existing standard language. I have to disagree to an extent. Of all the frameworks in CF that I have seen, each attempts to leverage methodologies proven in other languages and bring them to CF (MVC, ORM, etc.). Inside each framework, each attempts to communicate the moving bits as best they can as there is not always a 1-1 relationship with other languages. For example, in many event driven applications you either broadcast an 'event' or broadcast a 'message'. In both MG and MII, the exact names change, but the intent is carried through. Learning CF has nothing to do with learning a framework. Leveraging a framework or a design pattern helps developers solve specific problems they encounter. Too much business logic tied to your display? Use the MVC pattern (and perhaps a MVC framework). How someone learns CF is based on a myriad of factors and varies greatly from person to person. Each of these Buzz words solves REAL problems that developers face day to day. The Buzz words are buzz words in CF, but have long since become standard practice in most modern languages. My 2 cents Rich Kroll ~| Upgrade to Adobe ColdFusion MX7 Experience Flex 2 MX7 integration create powerful cross-platform RIAs http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJQ Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273455 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
Well, actually, this isn't entirely true. The idea of a controller predates MVC, and was commonly used in CGI programs written in procedural languages. For example, one of the first primitive web applications I wrote was in Visual Basic (!), and it was modelled after the example VB code provided with WebSite, an early Windows web server. It consisted of a main subroutine which acted as a controller, using URL parameters to invoke other specific subroutines, which were part of the same compiled executable. Thanks Dave, that is what I meant. If you look at the Java world, I've heard there truly are hundreds of frameworks. And from what you've said, the idea of a controller is not new to Fusebox nor ColdFusion. I don't want to paint myself as a frameworks basher, if people find them valuable, more power to them. I just think the frameworks authors could put more effort into making their framework approachable, and one way to do that is to use common langauge that everybody understands. It's already asking a lot for someone to learn a new XML dialect, and how to properly configure/use said framework. But throwing new terms into the mix seems unnecessary, imo. -- My Sites: http://www.techfeed.net/blog/ http://www.cfquickdocs.com/ http://cfformprotect.riaforge.org/ ~| Create Web Applications With ColdFusion MX7 Flex 2. Build powerful, scalable RIAs. Free Trial http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion/flex2/?sdid=RVJS Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273459 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: You think you know OOP.. but you don't
Jon, Yes - it's called Smalltalk ;P Also, check out Nando's series of articles http://aria-media.com/blog/index.cfm/oo-in-cf Seriously, I agree there's a lot of crap to learn, although my crap list is different. And IMHO, a lot of the crap is there because a) J2EE has a lot of stuff to support highly specific use cases surrounding distributed transactions and the performance and reliability issues thereof and b) ColdFusion has some serious performance problems as an OO language in that you are very restricted in the number of objects you can reasonably instantiate. So you *do* know OOP - what you're seeing is OOP PLUS the Java baggage PLUS the performance workarounds. I.e. we're not in Kansas anymore. Jaime -Original Message- From: Jonathan Block [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 23 March 2007 5:16 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: You think you know OOP.. but you don't Why do so many articles get published in the CFMX world about OOP. I've read though several, not going to mention names here... but you read it and it makes you think.. wow .. i thought I understood OOP but maybe I don't. Factories... abstraction... models... patterns... that's too much crap for someone to learn. I feel like anybody who's trying to learn CFMX need not worry about whether or not they know OOP or any of these crazy buzzwords. If we think OOP is important, or any other buzz word for that matter, we really aught to make a simple application that shows you the recommended way to do something in CFMX. Is there such a resource? Jon ~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:273473 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
