Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: > > >Robert Edmonds wrote: > >> > >> Here's another benefit I see from certifications like this: > >> there are > >> things that all of us know how to do, but if asked to walk > >> someone through > >> it over the phone, couldn't do it. For example, for me it > >> would be DNS > >> configuration. I can do it, but I can't tell YOU how to do > >> it. I know it > >> just well enough to kind of stumble through it and get it > >> working. And I > >> can get it working CORRECTLY. It's just that I am weak in > that > >> area. With > >> a performance based test in a lab situation, I could pass by > >> getting it to > >> work, but I may not be able to answer the question > correctly on > >> paper. And, > >> in my opinion, it's more important to be able to "walk the > >> walk" than "talk > >> the talk". What do you think? > > > >Talking the talk is very important too. Think proactively. > Hopefully, before > >long, you'll be moving up in the world. If you can train your > replacement to > >do what you did, then you can move up with fewer impediments. > If you can't > >train a replacement, then you may not be able to move up, or > you may move up > >and continually get calls from your replacement asking for > your help. > > Increasingly, I like my conceit of talking the walk. I should have said talking the walk. That's what I had in mind. > Talking > the talk > may be more characteristic of sales. Remember, some of the > important > distinctions between a seller of used cars and an account > executive > for networking are that the seller of used cars both knows when > he is > lying and how to drive. > > Walking the talk also makes more sense -- it is the ability to > listen > and learn, and can be generalized to researching who has talked > about > what. Or it could be trying to implement what that talkative sales person sold you?? ;-) Priscilla > > > > > > >I have worked with engineers who have never given any thought > to learning, > >training, etc. You know the type who can only work with > concrete things and > >considers any social science like education or psychology to > be hogwash. ;-) > > Were it not for social sciences like anthropology, you and I > couldn't > be tribal elders or shamans. > > >These types get stuck doing all sorts of mundane things that > are beneath > >them because they can't explain to someone else how to do it. > This probably > >doesn't apply to you, but it's just something to think about. > > > >It's funny that you use DNS as an example. I'm working with an > engineer > >right now who has said he will show me his DNS tasks but he > has failed to do > >this. I wonder if it's because he only does it once in a while > and is afraid > >that he won't be able to explain it to me. I'll try to go easy > on him, now > >that you have helped me see his side of the story. :-) > > > >Priscilla > > Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54572&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
>Robert Edmonds wrote: >> >> Here's another benefit I see from certifications like this: >> there are >> things that all of us know how to do, but if asked to walk >> someone through >> it over the phone, couldn't do it. For example, for me it >> would be DNS >> configuration. I can do it, but I can't tell YOU how to do >> it. I know it >> just well enough to kind of stumble through it and get it >> working. And I >> can get it working CORRECTLY. It's just that I am weak in that >> area. With >> a performance based test in a lab situation, I could pass by >> getting it to >> work, but I may not be able to answer the question correctly on >> paper. And, >> in my opinion, it's more important to be able to "walk the >> walk" than "talk >> the talk". What do you think? > >Talking the talk is very important too. Think proactively. Hopefully, before >long, you'll be moving up in the world. If you can train your replacement to >do what you did, then you can move up with fewer impediments. If you can't >train a replacement, then you may not be able to move up, or you may move up >and continually get calls from your replacement asking for your help. Increasingly, I like my conceit of talking the walk. Talking the talk may be more characteristic of sales. Remember, some of the important distinctions between a seller of used cars and an account executive for networking are that the seller of used cars both knows when he is lying and how to drive. Walking the talk also makes more sense -- it is the ability to listen and learn, and can be generalized to researching who has talked about what. > > >I have worked with engineers who have never given any thought to learning, >training, etc. You know the type who can only work with concrete things and >considers any social science like education or psychology to be hogwash. ;-) Were it not for social sciences like anthropology, you and I couldn't be tribal elders or shamans. >These types get stuck doing all sorts of mundane things that are beneath >them because they can't explain to someone else how to do it. This probably >doesn't apply to you, but it's just something to think about. > >It's funny that you use DNS as an example. I'm working with an engineer >right now who has said he will show me his DNS tasks but he has failed to do >this. I wonder if it's because he only does it once in a while and is afraid >that he won't be able to explain it to me. I'll try to go easy on him, now >that you have helped me see his side of the story. :-) > >Priscilla Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54570&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
Robert Edmonds wrote: > > Here's another benefit I see from certifications like this: > there are > things that all of us know how to do, but if asked to walk > someone through > it over the phone, couldn't do it. For example, for me it > would be DNS > configuration. I can do it, but I can't tell YOU how to do > it. I know it > just well enough to kind of stumble through it and get it > working. And I > can get it working CORRECTLY. It's just that I am weak in that > area. With > a performance based test in a lab situation, I could pass by > getting it to > work, but I may not be able to answer the question correctly on > paper. And, > in my opinion, it's more important to be able to "walk the > walk" than "talk > the talk". What do you think? Talking the talk is very important too. Think proactively. Hopefully, before long, you'll be moving up in the world. If you can train your replacement to do what you did, then you can move up with fewer impediments. If you can't train a replacement, then you may not be able to move up, or you may move up and continually get calls from your replacement asking for your help. I have worked with engineers who have never given any thought to learning, training, etc. You know the type who can only work with concrete things and considers any social science like education or psychology to be hogwash. ;-) These types get stuck doing all sorts of mundane things that are beneath them because they can't explain to someone else how to do it. This probably doesn't apply to you, but it's just something to think about. It's funny that you use DNS as an example. I'm working with an engineer right now who has said he will show me his DNS tasks but he has failed to do this. I wonder if it's because he only does it once in a while and is afraid that he won't be able to explain it to me. I'll try to go easy on him, now that you have helped me see his side of the story. :-) Priscilla > ""Kevin Cullimore"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > inline > > - Original Message - > > From: "Robert Edmonds" > > To: > > Sent: 29 September 2002 12:00 am > > Subject: Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications [7:54435] > > > > > > > I don't think it's accurate to say that Cisco, Microsoft > and Novell have > > > contributed to the "paper cert syndrome". They simply > created > > > certifications in an effort to distinguish those who are > familiar with > > their > > > products from those who don't. > > > > As part of the process of actuating those certifications, they > commissioned > > tests containing questions that could be answered "correctly" > without > > possessing an adequate knowledge of the subject matter. Even > if you are > only > > concerned with their ability to gauge book learning, the > questions have > > tended to fall far, far short of useful expectations. > > > > >The > people who use > > brain-dumps and boot > > > camps are the real culprits. They get the certifications > that get them > > the > > > jobs, then prove they don't know what they're doing, and in > turn it > casts > > a > > > shadow of doubt on those who do (know what they're doing). > You can't > > blame > > > them. Besides, all three have made their more recent > certifications > more > > > difficult with simulations, etc. And I don't think many > people doubt > that > > > someone who has passed the CCIE lab knows at least enough > to stumble > > through > > > and succeed. Anyway, I think the idea is great, and I hope > they > succeed. > > I > > > will definitely be in line to get my FCP certification. > Maybe it will > be > > > the difference between me and that other guy. Maybe you > (not anyone > > > specific -- generally). > > > > > > ""Chuck's Long Road"" wrote in message > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > ""Kevin Wigle"" wrote in message > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > > If you read further into the site you will that the > FCPA is > proposing > > to > > > > > deliver hands-on testing at both junior and senior > levels of > > > > certification. > > > > > > > > > &
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
[snip] >>work, but I may not be able to answer the question correctly on paper. And, >>in my opinion, it's more important to be able to "walk the walk" than "talk >>the talk". What do you think? > > > You make some excellent points. I think it's more than a binary "talk > the talk" vs. "walk the walk," the first being answering tests and > the second being demonstrating performance. > > It's long been a Cisco instructional principle that people learn in > different ways. Some are visual, some are conceptual, some are aural, > and some are tactile (i.e., hands on). I tend to be visual and > conceptual. > > You describe a very real-world requirement to "talk the walk" -- to > teach something, which is yet another skill set. Mind you, I find > that teaching or the equivalent writing is a good way to learn. > the whole thing sounds nice, yes, but i guess it fixes something that needs to be cured. i sometimes get the opinion that everyone is doing certs to make hr jobs easier. it's not a hard job to sort the cv in two piles: certification and no certification. so know you add a third one? i doubt that it will give more credit to your cert, just another one. as long as people get jobs only on their certs and not on what they are and what they have done so far, nothing will change... oh, yes, someone is making more money... just my 2cents -bis Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54542&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
At 5:04 PM + 9/29/02, Robert Edmonds wrote: >Here's another benefit I see from certifications like this: there are >things that all of us know how to do, but if asked to walk someone through >it over the phone, couldn't do it. For example, for me it would be DNS >configuration. I can do it, but I can't tell YOU how to do it. I know it >just well enough to kind of stumble through it and get it working. And I >can get it working CORRECTLY. It's just that I am weak in that area. With >a performance based test in a lab situation, I could pass by getting it to >work, but I may not be able to answer the question correctly on paper. And, >in my opinion, it's more important to be able to "walk the walk" than "talk >the talk". What do you think? You make some excellent points. I think it's more than a binary "talk the talk" vs. "walk the walk," the first being answering tests and the second being demonstrating performance. It's long been a Cisco instructional principle that people learn in different ways. Some are visual, some are conceptual, some are aural, and some are tactile (i.e., hands on). I tend to be visual and conceptual. You describe a very real-world requirement to "talk the walk" -- to teach something, which is yet another skill set. Mind you, I find that teaching or the equivalent writing is a good way to learn. Mind you, I'm trying to complete the matrix and figure out what "walk the talk" would be--the ability to listen without using your mouth? :-) Howard Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54501&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
Here's another benefit I see from certifications like this: there are things that all of us know how to do, but if asked to walk someone through it over the phone, couldn't do it. For example, for me it would be DNS configuration. I can do it, but I can't tell YOU how to do it. I know it just well enough to kind of stumble through it and get it working. And I can get it working CORRECTLY. It's just that I am weak in that area. With a performance based test in a lab situation, I could pass by getting it to work, but I may not be able to answer the question correctly on paper. And, in my opinion, it's more important to be able to "walk the walk" than "talk the talk". What do you think? ""Kevin Cullimore"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > inline > - Original Message - > From: "Robert Edmonds" > To: > Sent: 29 September 2002 12:00 am > Subject: Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications [7:54435] > > > > I don't think it's accurate to say that Cisco, Microsoft and Novell have > > contributed to the "paper cert syndrome". They simply created > > certifications in an effort to distinguish those who are familiar with > their > > products from those who don't. > > As part of the process of actuating those certifications, they commissioned > tests containing questions that could be answered "correctly" without > possessing an adequate knowledge of the subject matter. Even if you are only > concerned with their ability to gauge book learning, the questions have > tended to fall far, far short of useful expectations. > > >The people who use > brain-dumps and boot > > camps are the real culprits. They get the certifications that get them > the > > jobs, then prove they don't know what they're doing, and in turn it casts > a > > shadow of doubt on those who do (know what they're doing). You can't > blame > > them. Besides, all three have made their more recent certifications more > > difficult with simulations, etc. And I don't think many people doubt that > > someone who has passed the CCIE lab knows at least enough to stumble > through > > and succeed. Anyway, I think the idea is great, and I hope they succeed. > I > > will definitely be in line to get my FCP certification. Maybe it will be > > the difference between me and that other guy. Maybe you (not anyone > > specific -- generally). > > > > ""Chuck's Long Road"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > ""Kevin Wigle"" wrote in message > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > If you read further into the site you will that the FCPA is proposing > to > > > > deliver hands-on testing at both junior and senior levels of > > > certification. > > > > > > > > They have buy in from the major vendors such as Cisco, Microsoft, > Novell > > > and > > > > > > > > > CL: ironically, all three of the above have contributed mightily to the > > > whole "paper cert" syndrome! > > > > > > > > > > Red Hat. > > > > > > > > Both Novell and Red Hat and talking it up as the "capstone" to their > > > certs, > > > > but not as a replacement. > > > > > > > > People who have CCIE / CDE / RHCE certs will be awarded a FCPA cert > > > without > > > > being tested. > > > > > > > > Which is a bit funny as the list has from time to time "discussed" > paper > > > > CCIEs. > > > > > > > > Since the FCPA cert is just another lab, I don't know how it would be > > > > different from any other. It still doesn't "automatically" mean yoou > > have > > > > real world experience, just real lab experience. > > > > > > > > However, it is almost a daily discussion where I work about how > someone > > > has > > > > some initials but can't seem to troubleshoot out of a paper bag. > Quite > > > > often people are sent off on courses but are not "motivated" to take > the > > > > exam. Anybody can sit at the back of the classroom and play > solitaire - > > > not > > > > everyone passes the exam. > > > > > > > > A "hands-on" exam I think would b
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
inline - Original Message - From: "Robert Edmonds" To: Sent: 29 September 2002 12:00 am Subject: Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435] > I don't think it's accurate to say that Cisco, Microsoft and Novell have > contributed to the "paper cert syndrome". They simply created > certifications in an effort to distinguish those who are familiar with their > products from those who don't. As part of the process of actuating those certifications, they commissioned tests containing questions that could be answered "correctly" without possessing an adequate knowledge of the subject matter. Even if you are only concerned with their ability to gauge book learning, the questions have tended to fall far, far short of useful expectations. >The people who use brain-dumps and boot > camps are the real culprits. They get the certifications that get them the > jobs, then prove they don't know what they're doing, and in turn it casts a > shadow of doubt on those who do (know what they're doing). You can't blame > them. Besides, all three have made their more recent certifications more > difficult with simulations, etc. And I don't think many people doubt that > someone who has passed the CCIE lab knows at least enough to stumble through > and succeed. Anyway, I think the idea is great, and I hope they succeed. I > will definitely be in line to get my FCP certification. Maybe it will be > the difference between me and that other guy. Maybe you (not anyone > specific -- generally). > > ""Chuck's Long Road"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > ""Kevin Wigle"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > If you read further into the site you will that the FCPA is proposing to > > > deliver hands-on testing at both junior and senior levels of > > certification. > > > > > > They have buy in from the major vendors such as Cisco, Microsoft, Novell > > and > > > > > > CL: ironically, all three of the above have contributed mightily to the > > whole "paper cert" syndrome! > > > > > > > Red Hat. > > > > > > Both Novell and Red Hat and talking it up as the "capstone" to their > > certs, > > > but not as a replacement. > > > > > > People who have CCIE / CDE / RHCE certs will be awarded a FCPA cert > > without > > > being tested. > > > > > > Which is a bit funny as the list has from time to time "discussed" paper > > > CCIEs. > > > > > > Since the FCPA cert is just another lab, I don't know how it would be > > > different from any other. It still doesn't "automatically" mean yoou > have > > > real world experience, just real lab experience. > > > > > > However, it is almost a daily discussion where I work about how someone > > has > > > some initials but can't seem to troubleshoot out of a paper bag. Quite > > > often people are sent off on courses but are not "motivated" to take the > > > exam. Anybody can sit at the back of the classroom and play solitaire - > > not > > > everyone passes the exam. > > > > > > A "hands-on" exam I think would be very beneficial as another tool to > > assess > > > a person's ability. Still, as mentioned we will always be able to > debate > > > the "lab/real world" gambit but at least the whole discussion would be > on > > a > > > higher plane. > > > > > > However, being on a "vendor neutral" plain, anyone can walk in and take > > the > > > exam without pre-requisites. This could be enhanced by having a real > > > pre-requisite of having the vendor's "paper" cert before attempting the > > lab. > > > > > > But this can be debated also. On the site in one of the meeting minutes > > was > > > an interesting quote: > > > > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/Composition/Steering_Committee_Meeting_Min > > > utes_06-18-01.htm > > > > > > Eighty Pound Weight: Mr. Brown commented that he believed a company > > could > > > spend a million dollars designing a multiple-choice test which > accurately > > > predicts whether a person is likely able to lift an eighty-pound weight > > or, > > > the test taker could prove this ability merely by
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
I don't think it's accurate to say that Cisco, Microsoft and Novell have contributed to the "paper cert syndrome". They simply created certifications in an effort to distinguish those who are familiar with their products from those who don't. The people who use brain-dumps and boot camps are the real culprits. They get the certifications that get them the jobs, then prove they don't know what they're doing, and in turn it casts a shadow of doubt on those who do (know what they're doing). You can't blame them. Besides, all three have made their more recent certifications more difficult with simulations, etc. And I don't think many people doubt that someone who has passed the CCIE lab knows at least enough to stumble through and succeed. Anyway, I think the idea is great, and I hope they succeed. I will definitely be in line to get my FCP certification. Maybe it will be the difference between me and that other guy. Maybe you (not anyone specific -- generally). ""Chuck's Long Road"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > ""Kevin Wigle"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > If you read further into the site you will that the FCPA is proposing to > > deliver hands-on testing at both junior and senior levels of > certification. > > > > They have buy in from the major vendors such as Cisco, Microsoft, Novell > and > > > CL: ironically, all three of the above have contributed mightily to the > whole "paper cert" syndrome! > > > > Red Hat. > > > > Both Novell and Red Hat and talking it up as the "capstone" to their > certs, > > but not as a replacement. > > > > People who have CCIE / CDE / RHCE certs will be awarded a FCPA cert > without > > being tested. > > > > Which is a bit funny as the list has from time to time "discussed" paper > > CCIEs. > > > > Since the FCPA cert is just another lab, I don't know how it would be > > different from any other. It still doesn't "automatically" mean yoou have > > real world experience, just real lab experience. > > > > However, it is almost a daily discussion where I work about how someone > has > > some initials but can't seem to troubleshoot out of a paper bag. Quite > > often people are sent off on courses but are not "motivated" to take the > > exam. Anybody can sit at the back of the classroom and play solitaire - > not > > everyone passes the exam. > > > > A "hands-on" exam I think would be very beneficial as another tool to > assess > > a person's ability. Still, as mentioned we will always be able to debate > > the "lab/real world" gambit but at least the whole discussion would be on > a > > higher plane. > > > > However, being on a "vendor neutral" plain, anyone can walk in and take > the > > exam without pre-requisites. This could be enhanced by having a real > > pre-requisite of having the vendor's "paper" cert before attempting the > lab. > > > > But this can be debated also. On the site in one of the meeting minutes > was > > an interesting quote: > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/Composition/Steering_Committee_Meeting_Min > > utes_06-18-01.htm > > > > Eighty Pound Weight: Mr. Brown commented that he believed a company > could > > spend a million dollars designing a multiple-choice test which accurately > > predicts whether a person is likely able to lift an eighty-pound weight > or, > > the test taker could prove this ability merely by being asked to lift an > > eighty-pound weight. Mr. Brown believed the FCPA. effort is attempting to > > have technology workers prove themselves by "lifting eighty pound > weights." > > > > > > I think I like what FCPA wants to accomplish but the devil is always in > the > > details and whether yet another certification will gain industry > acceptance. > > > > In this regard, the FCPA seems to have attracted participation from a lot > of > > the industry's top vendors so maybe the time is right for performance > based > > testing. > > > > Kevin Wigle > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Chuck's Long Road" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 6:00 PM > > Subject: Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications [7:54435] > > > > > > > check further into the site: > > > > > > http://www.fie
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
""Kevin Wigle"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > If you read further into the site you will that the FCPA is proposing to > deliver hands-on testing at both junior and senior levels of certification. > > They have buy in from the major vendors such as Cisco, Microsoft, Novell and CL: ironically, all three of the above have contributed mightily to the whole "paper cert" syndrome! > Red Hat. > > Both Novell and Red Hat and talking it up as the "capstone" to their certs, > but not as a replacement. > > People who have CCIE / CDE / RHCE certs will be awarded a FCPA cert without > being tested. > > Which is a bit funny as the list has from time to time "discussed" paper > CCIEs. > > Since the FCPA cert is just another lab, I don't know how it would be > different from any other. It still doesn't "automatically" mean yoou have > real world experience, just real lab experience. > > However, it is almost a daily discussion where I work about how someone has > some initials but can't seem to troubleshoot out of a paper bag. Quite > often people are sent off on courses but are not "motivated" to take the > exam. Anybody can sit at the back of the classroom and play solitaire - not > everyone passes the exam. > > A "hands-on" exam I think would be very beneficial as another tool to assess > a person's ability. Still, as mentioned we will always be able to debate > the "lab/real world" gambit but at least the whole discussion would be on a > higher plane. > > However, being on a "vendor neutral" plain, anyone can walk in and take the > exam without pre-requisites. This could be enhanced by having a real > pre-requisite of having the vendor's "paper" cert before attempting the lab. > > But this can be debated also. On the site in one of the meeting minutes was > an interesting quote: > http://www.fieldcertification.org/Composition/Steering_Committee_Meeting_Min > utes_06-18-01.htm > > Eighty Pound Weight: Mr. Brown commented that he believed a company could > spend a million dollars designing a multiple-choice test which accurately > predicts whether a person is likely able to lift an eighty-pound weight or, > the test taker could prove this ability merely by being asked to lift an > eighty-pound weight. Mr. Brown believed the FCPA. effort is attempting to > have technology workers prove themselves by "lifting eighty pound weights." > > > I think I like what FCPA wants to accomplish but the devil is always in the > details and whether yet another certification will gain industry acceptance. > > In this regard, the FCPA seems to have attracted participation from a lot of > the industry's top vendors so maybe the time is right for performance based > testing. > > Kevin Wigle > > - Original Message - > From: "Chuck's Long Road" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 6:00 PM > Subject: Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications [7:54435] > > > > check further into the site: > > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/Field_Certification.htm > > > > read all about "field certification" > > > > also > > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/How_It_Works.htm > > > > sure looks like a whole new level of certification to me. > > > > not that I disagree with the principal here. But the home page ( and > Cisco's > > site ) does talk about this > > > > "Get the Field Certified Professional (FCPT) credential to assert yourself > > as the real IT professional with actual skills and set your credential > apart > > from the paper ones! " > > > > Like I said - a whole new certification to certify that your certification > > is better than some "paper" certification. > > > > I can hardly wait. > > > > Chuck > > > > -- > > > > www.chuckslongroad.info > > like my web site? > > take the survey! > > > > > > > > ""Steven A. Ridder"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > Not sure I saw any new certifications, just a new org. to certify > > > ""Chuck's Long Road"" wrote in message > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > Check this out" > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/fcpa.html > > > > > > > > AND > > > > > > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org > > > > > > > > AND > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/Membership/Pre_Qualification.htm > > > > > > > > Now you can get a certification that certifies that you are > certified!!! > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > www.chuckslongroad.info > > > > like my web site? > > > > take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54459&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
If you read further into the site you will that the FCPA is proposing to deliver hands-on testing at both junior and senior levels of certification. They have buy in from the major vendors such as Cisco, Microsoft, Novell and Red Hat. Both Novell and Red Hat and talking it up as the "capstone" to their certs, but not as a replacement. People who have CCIE / CDE / RHCE certs will be awarded a FCPA cert without being tested. Which is a bit funny as the list has from time to time "discussed" paper CCIEs. Since the FCPA cert is just another lab, I don't know how it would be different from any other. It still doesn't "automatically" mean yoou have real world experience, just real lab experience. However, it is almost a daily discussion where I work about how someone has some initials but can't seem to troubleshoot out of a paper bag. Quite often people are sent off on courses but are not "motivated" to take the exam. Anybody can sit at the back of the classroom and play solitaire - not everyone passes the exam. A "hands-on" exam I think would be very beneficial as another tool to assess a person's ability. Still, as mentioned we will always be able to debate the "lab/real world" gambit but at least the whole discussion would be on a higher plane. However, being on a "vendor neutral" plain, anyone can walk in and take the exam without pre-requisites. This could be enhanced by having a real pre-requisite of having the vendor's "paper" cert before attempting the lab. But this can be debated also. On the site in one of the meeting minutes was an interesting quote: http://www.fieldcertification.org/Composition/Steering_Committee_Meeting_Min utes_06-18-01.htm Eighty Pound Weight: Mr. Brown commented that he believed a company could spend a million dollars designing a multiple-choice test which accurately predicts whether a person is likely able to lift an eighty-pound weight or, the test taker could prove this ability merely by being asked to lift an eighty-pound weight. Mr. Brown believed the FCPA. effort is attempting to have technology workers prove themselves by "lifting eighty pound weights." I think I like what FCPA wants to accomplish but the devil is always in the details and whether yet another certification will gain industry acceptance. In this regard, the FCPA seems to have attracted participation from a lot of the industry's top vendors so maybe the time is right for performance based testing. Kevin Wigle ----- Original Message - From: "Chuck's Long Road" To: Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 6:00 PM Subject: Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications [7:54435] > check further into the site: > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/Field_Certification.htm > > read all about "field certification" > > also > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/How_It_Works.htm > > sure looks like a whole new level of certification to me. > > not that I disagree with the principal here. But the home page ( and Cisco's > site ) does talk about this > > "Get the Field Certified Professional (FCPT) credential to assert yourself > as the real IT professional with actual skills and set your credential apart > from the paper ones! " > > Like I said - a whole new certification to certify that your certification > is better than some "paper" certification. > > I can hardly wait. > > Chuck > > -- > > www.chuckslongroad.info > like my web site? > take the survey! > > > > ""Steven A. Ridder"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Not sure I saw any new certifications, just a new org. to certify > > ""Chuck's Long Road"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > Check this out" > > > > > > > > > http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/fcpa.html > > > > > > AND > > > > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org > > > > > > AND > > > > > > > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/Membership/Pre_Qualification.htm > > > > > > Now you can get a certification that certifies that you are certified!!! > > > > > > -- > > > > > > www.chuckslongroad.info > > > like my web site? > > > take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54458&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
it always gets back to the chicken somehow >-Original Message- >From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Sunday, 29 September 2002 09:49 >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications [7:54435] > > >>check further into the site: >> >>http://www.fieldcertification.org/Field_Certification.htm >> >>read all about "field certification" >> >>also >> >>http://www.fieldcertification.org/How_It_Works.htm >> >>sure looks like a whole new level of certification to me. >> >>not that I disagree with the principal here. But the home >page ( and Cisco's >>site ) does talk about this >> >>"Get the Field Certified Professional (FCPT) credential to >assert yourself >>as the real IT professional with actual skills and set your >credential apart >>from the paper ones! " >> >>Like I said - a whole new certification to certify that your >certification >>is better than some "paper" certification. >> >>I can hardly wait. >> >>Chuck > >But who certified the field certifiers? >Report misconduct >and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54457&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > >check further into the site: > > > >http://www.fieldcertification.org/Field_Certification.htm > > > >read all about "field certification" > > > >also > > > >http://www.fieldcertification.org/How_It_Works.htm > > > >sure looks like a whole new level of certification to me. > > > >not that I disagree with the principal here. But the home page ( and Cisco's > >site ) does talk about this > > > >"Get the Field Certified Professional (FCPT) credential to assert yourself > >as the real IT professional with actual skills and set your credential apart > >from the paper ones! " > > > >Like I said - a whole new certification to certify that your certification > >is better than some "paper" certification. > > > >I can hardly wait. > > > >Chuck > > But who certified the field certifiers? probably the same people who certified the first CCIE ;-> Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54456&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
>check further into the site: > >http://www.fieldcertification.org/Field_Certification.htm > >read all about "field certification" > >also > >http://www.fieldcertification.org/How_It_Works.htm > >sure looks like a whole new level of certification to me. > >not that I disagree with the principal here. But the home page ( and Cisco's >site ) does talk about this > >"Get the Field Certified Professional (FCPT) credential to assert yourself >as the real IT professional with actual skills and set your credential apart >from the paper ones! " > >Like I said - a whole new certification to certify that your certification >is better than some "paper" certification. > >I can hardly wait. > >Chuck But who certified the field certifiers? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54454&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
I guess you are correct. I wonder if it will ever take off. ""Chuck's Long Road"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > check further into the site: > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/Field_Certification.htm > > read all about "field certification" > > also > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/How_It_Works.htm > > sure looks like a whole new level of certification to me. > > not that I disagree with the principal here. But the home page ( and Cisco's > site ) does talk about this > > "Get the Field Certified Professional (FCPT) credential to assert yourself > as the real IT professional with actual skills and set your credential apart > from the paper ones! " > > Like I said - a whole new certification to certify that your certification > is better than some "paper" certification. > > I can hardly wait. > > Chuck > > -- > > www.chuckslongroad.info > like my web site? > take the survey! > > > > ""Steven A. Ridder"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Not sure I saw any new certifications, just a new org. to certify > > ""Chuck's Long Road"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > Check this out" > > > > > > > > > http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/fcpa.html > > > > > > AND > > > > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org > > > > > > AND > > > > > > > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/Membership/Pre_Qualification.htm > > > > > > Now you can get a certification that certifies that you are certified!!! > > > > > > -- > > > > > > www.chuckslongroad.info > > > like my web site? > > > take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54447&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
check further into the site: http://www.fieldcertification.org/Field_Certification.htm read all about "field certification" also http://www.fieldcertification.org/How_It_Works.htm sure looks like a whole new level of certification to me. not that I disagree with the principal here. But the home page ( and Cisco's site ) does talk about this "Get the Field Certified Professional (FCPT) credential to assert yourself as the real IT professional with actual skills and set your credential apart from the paper ones! " Like I said - a whole new certification to certify that your certification is better than some "paper" certification. I can hardly wait. Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! ""Steven A. Ridder"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Not sure I saw any new certifications, just a new org. to certify > ""Chuck's Long Road"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Check this out" > > > > > > http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/fcpa.html > > > > AND > > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org > > > > AND > > > > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/Membership/Pre_Qualification.htm > > > > Now you can get a certification that certifies that you are certified!!! > > > > -- > > > > www.chuckslongroad.info > > like my web site? > > take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54446&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
Not sure I saw any new certifications, just a new org. to certify ""Chuck's Long Road"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Check this out" > > > http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/fcpa.html > > AND > > http://www.fieldcertification.org > > AND > > > http://www.fieldcertification.org/Membership/Pre_Qualification.htm > > Now you can get a certification that certifies that you are certified!!! > > -- > > www.chuckslongroad.info > like my web site? > take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54443&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: Lookee Lookie - new certifications!!!! [7:54435]
Check this out" http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/fcpa.html AND http://www.fieldcertification.org AND http://www.fieldcertification.org/Membership/Pre_Qualification.htm Now you can get a certification that certifies that you are certified!!! -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=54435&t=54435 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
