Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
I like this statement "Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the technology was complex. Certification was important because it told an employer and customers that the certified professional could find his way around complicated networks. But now networks are easier to install and maintain. "Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a 12-year-old can install a Cisco router," Mazurek said. Mazurek says that he pays little attention to certification when he is hiring. It is experience that matters to him. - A 12 year old, huh? wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > From the web...just posted for dicussion fodder, I'm not making any > statements here or trying to discourage anyone... > > http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid7_gci8434 00,00.html Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51072&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
Robert D. Cluett wrote: > > I like this statement > > "Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the technology was > complex. > Certification was important because it told an employer and > customers that > the certified professional could find his way around > complicated networks. > But now networks are easier to install and maintain. > "Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a 12-year-old > can install a > Cisco router," Mazurek said. That's ridiculous, to put it bluntly. :-) The technology becomes more complex every year. > > Mazurek says that he pays little attention to certification > when he is > hiring. It is experience that matters to him. > > > > - A 12 year old, huh? Hey, I have experience trying to teach Cisco Networking Academy at the high school level. It doesn't work. Many of the students didn't even have the reading skills to follow the materials, let alone the sophisticated brain CPU power required to understand the concepts. Only a few of the math whiz types even got subnet maksing, and they don't plan to install routers for a living. They plan to be computer scientists. Cisco Networking Academy does work at the college level, though. Priscilla > > wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > From the web...just posted for dicussion fodder, I'm not > making any > > statements here or trying to discourage anyone... > > > > > http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid7_gci8434 > 00,00.html > > Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51080&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
At 6:02 PM + 8/9/02, Robert D. Cluett wrote: >I like this statement > >"Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the technology was complex. >Certification was important because it told an employer and customers that >the certified professional could find his way around complicated networks. >But now networks are easier to install and maintain. >"Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a 12-year-old can install a >Cisco router," Mazurek said. "A" router? Quite possibly. A network of real complexity? Probably not. > >Mazurek says that he pays little attention to certification when he is >hiring. It is experience that matters to him. > > > >- A 12 year old, huh? Good point. Although I know people that did their first (simple) programs at 7. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51082&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
And, can you stand one more message on this topic? ;-) Instead of reading that rather silly interpretation of the salary study, be sure to go to the actual study at TCP Magazine. It's very interesting, and one could easily come away with a good impression of the market, not the bad one that we are hearing from the interpretation. Sure the market isn't as good as it was, but network industry wages are still way ahead of the average American household income. There's also a great interview with our own Howard C. Berkowitz! ;-) Anyway, the TCP Magazine salary survey pages are here: http://tcpmag.com/salarysurveys/article.asp?EditorialsID=198 Priscilla Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: > > At 6:02 PM + 8/9/02, Robert D. Cluett wrote: > >I like this statement > > > >"Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the technology was > complex. > >Certification was important because it told an employer and > customers that > >the certified professional could find his way around > complicated networks. > >But now networks are easier to install and maintain. > >"Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a 12-year-old > can install a > >Cisco router," Mazurek said. > > "A" router? Quite possibly. A network of real complexity? > Probably not. > > > > >Mazurek says that he pays little attention to certification > when he is > >hiring. It is experience that matters to him. > > > > > > > >- A 12 year old, huh? > > > Good point. Although I know people that did their first > (simple) programs at 7. > > Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51086&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
Quoting "Robert D. Cluett" : > I like this statement > > "Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the > technology was complex. > Certification was important because it told an > employer and customers that > the certified professional could find his way around > complicated networks. > But now networks are easier to install and maintain. > "Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a > 12-year-old can install a > Cisco router," Mazurek said. Spoken like a true member of upper management. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51085&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
I agree that the statement of the 12-year-old is going too far. Having said that, I do agree that knowledge of basic networking has been commoditized. To be perfectly honest, if all you know how to do is connect a router and configure some basic static routes, you don't know much, not in this economy. And just knowing routing protocols probably isn't going to cut it either. The fact of the matter is that many enterprises get along just fine with basic static routes. I believe that people who can see how the network fits into the rest of the IT infrastructure will still continue to do well. Those who can articulate an integrated fully-functional technological system, combining knowledge of networks, security, servers, storage, databases, applications, etc. etc. rather than just point-pieces will do well. But that means that network jockeys will have to start diversifying away from just knowing networks. ""Mark Smith"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Quoting "Robert D. Cluett" : > > > I like this statement > > > > "Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the > > technology was complex. > > Certification was important because it told an > > employer and customers that > > the certified professional could find his way around > > complicated networks. > > But now networks are easier to install and maintain. > > "Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a > > 12-year-old can install a > > Cisco router," Mazurek said. > > > > Spoken like a true member of upper management. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51089&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
But can the twelve year old solve a BGP neighbor issue? More then likely his answer will be, "well I put everything in the GUI where it asked." --- Mark Smith wrote: > Quoting "Robert D. Cluett" : > > > I like this statement > > > > "Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the > > technology was complex. > > Certification was important because it told an > > employer and customers that > > the certified professional could find his way > around > > complicated networks. > > But now networks are easier to install and > maintain. > > "Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a > > 12-year-old can install a > > Cisco router," Mazurek said. > > > > Spoken like a true member of upper management. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51090&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
Priscilla, I'd have to disagree with you here. We have many, many programs that are doing well in the high schools. We supervise 20 Local Acadamies of which 18 are high schools. In fact, the Academy Program was originally intended just for high schools and they comprise the bulk of our acadamies. The key, we have found, is to be selective in the students you allow into the program. Without that, it can indeed be a very difficult curriculum to teach at the high school level. Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI Community College of Southern Nevada Cisco ATC/Regional Networking Academy Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: > Robert D. Cluett wrote: > > > > I like this statement > > > > "Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the technology was > > complex. > > Certification was important because it told an employer and > > customers that > > the certified professional could find his way around > > complicated networks. > > But now networks are easier to install and maintain. > > "Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a 12-year-old > > can install a > > Cisco router," Mazurek said. > > That's ridiculous, to put it bluntly. :-) The technology becomes more > complex every year. > > > > > Mazurek says that he pays little attention to certification > > when he is > > hiring. It is experience that matters to him. > > > > > > > > - A 12 year old, huh? > > Hey, I have experience trying to teach Cisco Networking Academy at the high > school level. It doesn't work. Many of the students didn't even have the > reading skills to follow the materials, let alone the sophisticated brain > CPU power required to understand the concepts. Only a few of the math whiz > types even got subnet maksing, and they don't plan to install routers for a > living. They plan to be computer scientists. > > Cisco Networking Academy does work at the college level, though. > > Priscilla > > > > > wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > From the web...just posted for dicussion fodder, I'm not > > making any > > > statements here or trying to discourage anyone... > > > > > > > > > http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid7_gci8434 > > 00,00.html Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51091&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
At 7:04 PM + 8/9/02, Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: >Robert D. Cluett wrote: >> >> I like this statement >> >> "Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the technology was >> complex. >> Certification was important because it told an employer and >> customers that >> the certified professional could find his way around >> complicated networks. >> But now networks are easier to install and maintain. >> "Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a 12-year-old >> can install a >> Cisco router," Mazurek said. > >That's ridiculous, to put it bluntly. :-) The technology becomes more >complex every year. > >> >> Mazurek says that he pays little attention to certification >> when he is >> hiring. It is experience that matters to him. >> >> >> >> - A 12 year old, huh? > >Hey, I have experience trying to teach Cisco Networking Academy at the high >school level. It doesn't work. Many of the students didn't even have the >reading skills to follow the materials, let alone the sophisticated brain >CPU power required to understand the concepts. Only a few of the math whiz >types even got subnet maksing, and they don't plan to install routers for a >living. They plan to be computer scientists. > >Cisco Networking Academy does work at the college level, though. > >Priscilla But do they understand how many computer scientists it takes to change a light bulb? Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51093&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
Can't agree more. If I've been through subnet masks once I've been through it ten times with my son. He's still not happy with wildcard masks and goes off the handle if the addresses aren't contiguous. I'm going to leave it until he's at least six years old now. I'm wasting my time with him. :-) Gaz ""Priscilla Oppenheimer"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Robert D. Cluett wrote: > > > > I like this statement > > > > "Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the technology was > > complex. > > Certification was important because it told an employer and > > customers that > > the certified professional could find his way around > > complicated networks. > > But now networks are easier to install and maintain. > > "Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a 12-year-old > > can install a > > Cisco router," Mazurek said. > > That's ridiculous, to put it bluntly. :-) The technology becomes more > complex every year. > > > > > Mazurek says that he pays little attention to certification > > when he is > > hiring. It is experience that matters to him. > > > > > > > > - A 12 year old, huh? > > Hey, I have experience trying to teach Cisco Networking Academy at the high > school level. It doesn't work. Many of the students didn't even have the > reading skills to follow the materials, let alone the sophisticated brain > CPU power required to understand the concepts. Only a few of the math whiz > types even got subnet maksing, and they don't plan to install routers for a > living. They plan to be computer scientists. > > Cisco Networking Academy does work at the college level, though. > > Priscilla > > > > > wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > From the web...just posted for dicussion fodder, I'm not > > making any > > > statements here or trying to discourage anyone... > > > > > > > > > http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid7_gci8434 > > 00,00.html Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51098&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
Tom Lisa wrote: > > Priscilla, > > I'd have to disagree with you here. We have many, many > programs that > are doing well in the high schools. We supervise 20 Local > Acadamies > of which 18 are high schools. > In fact, the Academy Program was > originally intended just for high schools and they comprise the > bulk of > our acadamies. > > The key, we have found, is to be selective in the students you > allow into > the program. Sure you can be selective in the students allowed into the program. Then you get smart, well-to-do students who are probably going to go on to college and not immediately get a job configuring routers. So, while they could have been studying AP Math, Chemistry, etc., they have learned the file naming convention for Cisco IOS images. Very useful thing to know as a college student. The program was meant to be a vocational program for students who will work out of high school. It doesn't work for those students. They don't have the requisite reading skills, problem-solving skills, or analytical abilities. High school brains are not well developed, in general. In the case of the vocational students, their brains just can't handle networking concepts in many cases. The small percentage of high school students that the program works for are the smart students who will work part-time while in college and may find a job doing networking instead of working in the dorm cafeteria. That's a really small number of people. At high schools where there is a shortages of resources, teachers, etc., Cisco Networking Academy is a waste. Instead of teaching the vocational students file naming conventions, subnet masking, OSI, etc. etc., why not teach them something they can actually be good at and use on the outside right out of high school, such as tech support, hardware configuration and repair, desktop support, etc. Of course, your situation may be very different from what we have here in Southern Oregon. Priscilla > Without that, it can indeed be a very difficult > curriculum > to teach at the high school level. > > Prof. Tom Lisa, CCAI > Community College of Southern Nevada > Cisco ATC/Regional Networking Academy > > > > Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: > > > Robert D. Cluett wrote: > > > > > > I like this statement > > > > > > "Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the technology > was > > > complex. > > > Certification was important because it told an employer and > > > customers that > > > the certified professional could find his way around > > > complicated networks. > > > But now networks are easier to install and maintain. > > > "Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a 12-year-old > > > can install a > > > Cisco router," Mazurek said. > > > > That's ridiculous, to put it bluntly. :-) The technology > becomes more > > complex every year. > > > > > > > > Mazurek says that he pays little attention to certification > > > when he is > > > hiring. It is experience that matters to him. > > > > > > > > > > > > - A 12 year old, huh? > > > > Hey, I have experience trying to teach Cisco Networking > Academy at the high > > school level. It doesn't work. Many of the students didn't > even have the > > reading skills to follow the materials, let alone the > sophisticated brain > > CPU power required to understand the concepts. Only a few of > the math whiz > > types even got subnet maksing, and they don't plan to install > routers for a > > living. They plan to be computer scientists. > > > > Cisco Networking Academy does work at the college level, > though. > > > > Priscilla > > > > > > > > wrote in message > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > From the web...just posted for dicussion fodder, I'm not > > > making any > > > > statements here or trying to discourage anyone... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid7_gci8434 > > > 00,00.html > > Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51103&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
I thought you were supposed to write about what you know. This guy probably thinks the lab is just a typing test. D. At 03:15 PM 8/9/2002 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >From the web...just posted for dicussion fodder, I'm not making any >statements here or trying to discourage anyone... > >http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid7_gci8434 >00,00.html x$:0`0:$xx$:0`0:$xx$:0`0:$xx$:0`0:$x International Network Services Darren S. Crawford - CCNP, CCDP, CISSP Sr. Network Systems Consultant Northwest Region - Sacramento Office Voicemail (916) 859-5200 x310 Pager (800) 467-1467 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] x$:0`0:$xx$:0`0:$xx$:0`0:$xx$:0`0:$x Every Job is a Self-Portrait of the person Who Did It Autograph Your Work With EXCELLENCE! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51108&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
""Howard C. Berkowitz"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > At 6:02 PM + 8/9/02, Robert D. Cluett wrote: > >I like this statement > > > >"Times have changed, he said. Six years ago the technology was complex. > >Certification was important because it told an employer and customers that > >the certified professional could find his way around complicated networks. > >But now networks are easier to install and maintain. > >"Now they've dumbed it down to the point where a 12-year-old can install a > >Cisco router," Mazurek said. > > "A" router? Quite possibly. A network of real complexity? Probably not. > > > > >Mazurek says that he pays little attention to certification when he is > >hiring. It is experience that matters to him. > > > > > > > >- A 12 year old, huh? > > > Good point. Although I know people that did their first (simple) programs at > 7. > > CL: Mozart died at 35. Eisnstein published relativity at 26. Most of the rest of us just do the best we can with what we have. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51125&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
- Original Message - From: "Priscilla Oppenheimer" To: Sent: 09 August 2002 5:57 pm Subject: Re: Notes on salaries [7:51052] > > The key, we have found, is to be selective in the students you > > allow into > > the program. > > Sure you can be selective in the students allowed into the program. Then you > get smart, well-to-do students who are probably going to go on to college > and not immediately get a job configuring routers. So, while they could have > been studying AP Math, Chemistry, etc., they have learned the file naming > convention for Cisco IOS images. Very useful thing to know as a college > student. > I'm probably mixing subthreads here. Sorry about that. If you're capable of understanding data networking (as sharply contrasted with merely the capability to correctly configure participating intermediate systems) at age 12, or even in high school, and you're relying on your coursework as your primary source of information about math & chemistry, you're usually squandering whatever potential you seem to exhibit. Then again (Out of respect for intellectual property rights, I'm forced to rely upon secondhand reports such as those posted to online communities such as this one), it seems as if much of the program's content is readily gleaned by those individuals without the benefit of participation in the program itself. > The program was meant to be a vocational program for students who will work > out of high school. It doesn't work for those students. They don't have the > requisite reading skills, problem-solving skills, or analytical abilities. > > High school brains are not well developed, in general. In the case of the > vocational students, their brains just can't handle networking concepts in > many cases. > > The small percentage of high school students that the program works for are > the smart students who will work part-time while in college and may find a > job doing networking instead of working in the dorm cafeteria. That's a > really small number of people. As you point out, it's sort of arbitrary. Violent reactions to non-decimal numbering systems and an unflinching determination to oversimplify & invalidly categorize newly received information, as well as a profound lack of understanding of the fundamental concepts you enumerated, might be quenched before they emerge if those skills are actually developed during the course of prior interactions with formal education (or, for efficiency's sake, less cumbersome methods). > At high schools where there is a shortages of resources, teachers, etc., > Cisco Networking Academy is a waste. Waste might be a bit strong. A bigger danger would come when brief exposure to fundamentals leads people to overestimate their ability to understand and deal with situations that don't identically correspond to instructional scenarios they were spoon-fed (we'll call it "fresh-out-of-college-CS-major-with-no-real-world-experience-and-only-progra mming-skills-who-insist-that-their-academic-credentials-entitle-them-to-high -level-networking-jobs-and-attendant-respect" syndrome). Cf. Alexander Pope & musings on pierian (sp?) springs. >Instead of teaching the vocational > students file naming conventions, subnet masking, OSI, etc. etc., why not > teach them something they can actually be good at and use on the outside > right out of high school, such as tech support, hardware configuration and > repair, desktop support, etc. It remains an executive-level fantasy that, as skills associated with data communications become commoditized, that many associated activities will become entirely deterministic/cookie-cutter, thereby lowering the skill level necessary to perform such tasks. As usual, their coarse & vehemently unreflective approach prevents them from taking advantage of any truth that might be found within the conceptual confines of the oversimplifications they so deeply cherish & swear by. Example: the 1st person who takes an IT support call could (in many cases) be trained to enable a switch port and hardcode duplex & speed settings, but the wisdom required to know whether they should, or how to troubleshoot unexpected consequences might not be as readily disseminated. A better example from another realm would involve DNS record changes. I'd agree that the skills you mentioned would constitute a better choice in the relevant forums, but for a different reason: the need for a greater percentage of well-rounded networking professionals, who understand technologies commonly delegated to different individuals within an IT organizations, such as operating systems, messaging, microcomputer hardware & many other topics. > Of course, your situation may be very different from what we have here in > Southern Orego
RE: Notes on salaries [7:51052]
With more applications becoming internet ready everyday. With rapid changed in technology, with companies using the internet in new ways. With files getting larger, requiring more bandwidth, with video apps becoming more commonplace, with common users using and editing streaming video/Tivo. With DSL speed increasing, with the predictions of the 2nd coming of the internet boom. With Voice over IP becoming more standard, with XML ready to come onboard to integrate the web. With handhelds and wirless internet ready to break. Also, thousands of new companies are waiting to implement their internet ideas, the economy is just not stable enough for them right now. Someone needs to support this stuff! Too many new technologies to mention. I would say that the few left standing though the hard times, which we are experiencing now, will be paid seven fold. There are too many reasons to mention why to get Cisco certified. Just like investing, it takes time and patience. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=51229&t=51052 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
