Re: ANN: Tom Faulhaber: "Lisp, Functional Programming, and the State of Flow" video available

[Sean Corfield]

On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Paul  Mooser  wrote:
> Thanks for posting these for those of us that were not able to make it
> to the conj!

+1

I'm loving that I can watch these on my iPhone!
-- 
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An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

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Re: Loading JNI

[George Jahad]

> At this point I have ugly looking Clojure code that looks as
>Java-like as possible, so that I'm doing the exact same thing in the
>exact same order as I do in a Java example, but I get exceptions when
>I do it in Clojure.

if they are short enough, post both the working java and broken
clojure versions.  i'm bet someone on this list will spot your
problem.

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Re: Knuth's literate programming "tangle" function in Clojure

[Tim Daly]

 The new version of Clojure in Small Pieces is up at:

http://daly.axiom-developer.org/clojure.pdf
http://daly.axiom-developer.org/clojure.pamphlet
http://daly.axiom-developer.org/clojure.sty

This version of the literate document contains a
complete, working system. The steps for building
it are in the preface.

Essentially you compile the tangle function from
the document (or use the same source code here:
http://daly.axiom-developer.org/tangle.c )

Then you run tangle to extract the Makefile.
Then you type make.

Or, for the programmers:

1) edit the file, clip out and save tangle.c
2) gcc -o tangle tangle.c
3) tangle clojure.pamphlet Makefile >Makefile
4) make

It should extract the sources, build Clojure,
test it, build the pdf, and leave you at a
REPL prompt.

The source tree lives under the 'tpd' directory.
You can put it anywhere with an argument to make, e.g.

4) make WHERE=myplace

This means that you only need the latex document
to develop (resist the urge to edit the other
files).

Now the problem is to write the ideas and connect
them to the code. I started doing this for the
Red Black tree idea and PersistentTreeMap. Feel
free to pick an idea (or suggest one) and work
out the details.

I urge you to try the edit/build cycle using
literate tools as a possible different way to
work. My usual command line after every change is:

rm -rf tpd && tangle clojure.pamphlet Makefile >Makefile && make

A complete rebuild from scratch takes less than a
minute on a fast machine.

Tim

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Re: Funding 2011?

[Jon Seltzer]

Why not update the funding from simple donation to a purchase of
clojure/core software like a refined version of the eclipse plugin or
some other incentive based approach?  I think I understand why rich
might find 'donation' approach a bit uncomfortable.

On Jan 4, 2:24 pm, Mark Engelberg  wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Luke VanderHart
>
>  wrote:
> > For what it's worth, I am really glad of the position Rich is taking
> > on a roadmap and Clojure's future development. I would much rather
> > Clojure remained fresh, innovative and agile, and that it continues to
> > offer unexpected, delightful new features and abilities. It can't
> > really do that if Rich has to work through a years worth of mundane
> > improvements he's already committed to before he can implement a new
> > idea.
>
> About roadmaps:
>
> I think there are a core set of Clojure developers who meet regularly
> on IRC and discuss all kinds of interesting issues surrounding
> Clojure.  They post ideas on the separate dev list, and on the various
> group development sites (assembla, github, confluence, etc. -- it has
> changed over time where the active discussions are happening).
>
> I believe that those "in the core" don't fully realize how little of
> that information trickles out to the masses.  Improved information
> flow can generate excitement and enthusiasm in the community.
>
> For example, to those outside the core, sometimes it feels like
> development is proceeding at a slow pace.  We mainly see the new,
> stable releases, which occur only occasionally (just 1.2 in the last
> year, right?).  The inner group knows what's going into 1.3.  They
> know how much effort has been spent testing out ideas, some of which
> were discarded, and some of which are highly likely to remain in the
> pipeline for a future stable release.  The know what time has gone
> into creating build tools and other mundane things that are necessary
> as the project's infrastructure grows.  For those outside the core,
> seeing a summary of the past year's accomplishments is tremendously
> exciting, creating a sense of "Wow, Clojure's development is really
> progressing, with lots of great things happening.  This is a
> fast-moving train that I want to be a part of."
>
> Similarly, when looking ahead, it is possible to provide a glimpse in
> the form of "Here are the areas we're actively investigating (e.g.,
> primitive math, pods, etc.).  It's hard to know exactly which will
> bear fruit, but these are some of the things we're trying out, and
> some of the problems we'd like to solve."  Furthermore, it's useful to
> know when past ideas have been officially discarded.  For example, a
> couple years back there was a lot of discussion surrounding streams,
> as a way to handle stateful i/o interactions.  Are those ideas
> officially dead, or are they just lower priority than a lot of things,
> or are we awaiting a fresh new insight?
>
> These sorts of communications to the community are certainly essential
> when trying to generate excitement about Clojure's forward momentum
> for funding purposes, but even if Rich has abandoned funding in the
> interest of not being tied to a specific set of commitments or
> expectations, I hope that the core developers will still realize the
> great community-building value of summarizing "where we have been and
> where we hope to go".
>
> About funding:
>
> Last year, when Rich appealed for funding, he explained that without
> the funding, it did not make rational economic sense for him to devote
> his full time to Clojure development.  He would be forced to take
> other contracting jobs, and less of his time would be spent on
> Clojure.  So to me, the sad part of this announcement is that it
> carries with it the implication that Clojure development is going to
> slow down, because Rich will have to focus on things other than
> Clojure in order to make money.  Is there any kind of middle ground
> possible here?

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Re: #clojure in 2010

[Miki]

If someone is interested in some other statistics, please let me know and 
I'll try to make it happen.

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Re: map destructuring with defaults

[Chas Emerick]

The :as option in destructuring forms binds the original value being 
destructured -- no "entire" map is being formed in the background ahead of time.

So, build that "entire" map as you require; e.g.:

=> (let [{:keys [a] :as b} (merge {:b 3} {:a 4})] b)
{:a 4, :b 3}

- Chas

On Jan 4, 2011, at 7:38 PM, Seth wrote:

> Is there any way to get the entire map when destructuring plus the
> defaults?
> (let [{:keys [a] :or {a 4} :as b} {:b 3}] b)
> returns {:b 3}
> 
> but i would like it to return {:b 3 :a 4}
> 
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Re: Quick question about str/join....

[John Szakmeister]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 8:29 PM, MiltondSilva  wrote:
> Again from inspection it seems the way it's implemented in contrib,
> the code makes one pass. With (apply str (interpose sep coll)) you
> make two, one to interpose the other to convert (seq->str).

Well, interpose does return a lazy sequence, but it does appear that
would get realized passing them in as args to str.  Thanks!  That's
was the tidbit I was looking for!

-John

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Re: Quick question about str/join....

[MiltondSilva]

Again from inspection it seems the way it's implemented in contrib,
the code makes one pass. With (apply str (interpose sep coll)) you
make two, one to interpose the other to convert (seq->str).

On Jan 5, 1:08 am, John Szakmeister  wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 8:01 PM, MiltondSilva  wrote:
> > I believe it's for performance reasons. Strings in java are immutable,
> > so they use the StringBuilder(mutable) to achieve better performance.
>
> But str use StringBuilder too.  Maybe it was better to avoid the extra
> call overhead?
>
> -John
>
> > On Jan 5, 12:18 am, John Szakmeister  wrote:
> >> I was looking at a commit that updated a docstring for str/join, which
> >> enticed me to take a look at the implementation.  I was kind of
> >> surprised to see that it wasn't:
> >>   (apply str (interpose sep coll))
>
> >> I'm just curious about the developer was thinking.  Here's a link to the 
> >> code:
> >>   
> >> 
>
> >> Thanks!
>
> >> -John
>
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Re: Quick question about str/join....

[John Szakmeister]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Stuart Halloway
 wrote:
> Several people had hands in that code, and the final result is all about 
> perf. Do not treat string.clj as a reference for idiomatic code. :-)

That's what I suspected. :-)  Thanks Stuart!

-John

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Re: Quick question about str/join....

[Stuart Halloway]

Several people had hands in that code, and the final result is all about perf. 
Do not treat string.clj as a reference for idiomatic code. :-)

Stu

> On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 8:01 PM, MiltondSilva  wrote:
>> I believe it's for performance reasons. Strings in java are immutable,
>> so they use the StringBuilder(mutable) to achieve better performance.
> 
> But str use StringBuilder too.  Maybe it was better to avoid the extra
> call overhead?
> 
> -John
> 
> 
>> On Jan 5, 12:18 am, John Szakmeister  wrote:
>>> I was looking at a commit that updated a docstring for str/join, which
>>> enticed me to take a look at the implementation.  I was kind of
>>> surprised to see that it wasn't:
>>>   (apply str (interpose sep coll))
>>> 
>>> I'm just curious about the developer was thinking.  Here's a link to the 
>>> code:
>>>   
>>> 
>>> Thanks!
>>> 
>>> -John
>> 
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Re: Quick question about str/join....

[John Szakmeister]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 8:01 PM, MiltondSilva  wrote:
> I believe it's for performance reasons. Strings in java are immutable,
> so they use the StringBuilder(mutable) to achieve better performance.

But str use StringBuilder too.  Maybe it was better to avoid the extra
call overhead?

-John


> On Jan 5, 12:18 am, John Szakmeister  wrote:
>> I was looking at a commit that updated a docstring for str/join, which
>> enticed me to take a look at the implementation.  I was kind of
>> surprised to see that it wasn't:
>>   (apply str (interpose sep coll))
>>
>> I'm just curious about the developer was thinking.  Here's a link to the 
>> code:
>>   
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> -John
>
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Re: Quick question about str/join....

[MiltondSilva]

I believe it's for performance reasons. Strings in java are immutable,
so they use the StringBuilder(mutable) to achieve better performance.

On Jan 5, 12:18 am, John Szakmeister  wrote:
> I was looking at a commit that updated a docstring for str/join, which
> enticed me to take a look at the implementation.  I was kind of
> surprised to see that it wasn't:
>   (apply str (interpose sep coll))
>
> I'm just curious about the developer was thinking.  Here's a link to the code:
>   
>
> Thanks!
>
> -John

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map destructuring with defaults

[Seth]

Is there any way to get the entire map when destructuring plus the
defaults?
(let [{:keys [a] :or {a 4} :as b} {:b 3}] b)
returns {:b 3}

but i would like it to return {:b 3 :a 4}

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Re: Having trouble with "reader.tasklist" class from Programming Clojure

[Randy J. Ray]

On 01/04/2011 01:17 PM, Stuart Halloway wrote:

Things to try:

(1) Is the directory that contains "reader" on your classpath?

(2) Does it run with the provided script/repl.sh or script\repl.bat scripts?


When I ran it, I was in the directory that contains "reader" (and "classes"), 
and "." was in my classpath.


I ran it with the "bin/repl.sh" in the github distro, and it successfully 
compiled the class. I noticed that *that* REPL was using 1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT. 
So from the exact same directory (with "reader" and "classes" in the current 
directory) I ran:


java -cp 
.:/home/users/rjray/lib/clojure/clojure-contrib.jar:/home/users/rjray/lib/clojure/clojure.jar:/home/users/rjray/lib/java/jline.jar 
jline.ConsoleRunner clojure.main


Note the "." at the head of classpath (plus, it's finding the class to start 
compiling it, it just isn't finding it when it references itself). The paths to 
clojure.jar and clojure-contrib.jar are the 1.2.0 distribution jars, stock 
downloads from clojure.org. And with that REPL, it reported the error.


Randy

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Quick question about str/join....

[John Szakmeister]

I was looking at a commit that updated a docstring for str/join, which
enticed me to take a look at the implementation.  I was kind of
surprised to see that it wasn't:
  (apply str (interpose sep coll))

I'm just curious about the developer was thinking.  Here's a link to the code:
  


Thanks!

-John

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Re: java 7

[Ken Wesson]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Devrim Baris Acar  wrote:
> Hi list,
> I wonder what would Clojure exploit from Java 7 .
> Any ideas?

If Java 7 ever actually arrives, that question could become
interesting. But I'm not holding my breath. :)

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java 7

[Devrim Baris Acar]

Hi list,
I wonder what would Clojure exploit from Java 7 .
Any ideas?

Devrim Baris Acar

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Re: Funding 2011?

[MiltondSilva]

Why must many pay for some?
I'm certain that of all the contributions you had, there are only an
handful of people who don't understand what a donation is. So with
that in mind what is the rational for this kind of action?

I mean, you never said that if we donated you would implement our
ideas right? So why do you feel this action is necessary? This only
cuts you from a source of support, and people who feel that they
should get a say in the direction clojure is taking, could perhaps be
refunded.

One possible solution would be to open a virtual gift shop where you
would buy clojure mugs and t-shirts etc... they would be a bit pricier
but the profit would serve to fund clojure, that way if I want to fund
clojure development I know where to go and there is no room for
complains, because you are getting something for your money.

On Jan 4, 2:31 pm, Rich Hickey  wrote:
> On Nov 28, 2010, at 9:07 PM, Jeremy Dunck wrote:
>
> > In Dec 2009, Rich asked the community to step up and support core
> > development -- and the community came through.
>
> > I'm interested in clojure, but not using it professionally yet.  I was
> > wondering if funding for 2011 has already been worked out, or if it is
> > an open question?
>
> I was going to continue the funding effort, but have decided against  
> it for the reasons given here:
>
> http://clojure.org/funding
>
> Many thanks to those who participated,
>
> Rich
>
> p.s. If you participated during the brief interval when funding was  
> directed at Clojure/core, your contribution will be refunded.

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Re: Funding 2011?

[Mark Engelberg]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Luke VanderHart
 wrote:
> For what it's worth, I am really glad of the position Rich is taking
> on a roadmap and Clojure's future development. I would much rather
> Clojure remained fresh, innovative and agile, and that it continues to
> offer unexpected, delightful new features and abilities. It can't
> really do that if Rich has to work through a years worth of mundane
> improvements he's already committed to before he can implement a new
> idea.

About roadmaps:

I think there are a core set of Clojure developers who meet regularly
on IRC and discuss all kinds of interesting issues surrounding
Clojure.  They post ideas on the separate dev list, and on the various
group development sites (assembla, github, confluence, etc. -- it has
changed over time where the active discussions are happening).

I believe that those "in the core" don't fully realize how little of
that information trickles out to the masses.  Improved information
flow can generate excitement and enthusiasm in the community.

For example, to those outside the core, sometimes it feels like
development is proceeding at a slow pace.  We mainly see the new,
stable releases, which occur only occasionally (just 1.2 in the last
year, right?).  The inner group knows what's going into 1.3.  They
know how much effort has been spent testing out ideas, some of which
were discarded, and some of which are highly likely to remain in the
pipeline for a future stable release.  The know what time has gone
into creating build tools and other mundane things that are necessary
as the project's infrastructure grows.  For those outside the core,
seeing a summary of the past year's accomplishments is tremendously
exciting, creating a sense of "Wow, Clojure's development is really
progressing, with lots of great things happening.  This is a
fast-moving train that I want to be a part of."

Similarly, when looking ahead, it is possible to provide a glimpse in
the form of "Here are the areas we're actively investigating (e.g.,
primitive math, pods, etc.).  It's hard to know exactly which will
bear fruit, but these are some of the things we're trying out, and
some of the problems we'd like to solve."  Furthermore, it's useful to
know when past ideas have been officially discarded.  For example, a
couple years back there was a lot of discussion surrounding streams,
as a way to handle stateful i/o interactions.  Are those ideas
officially dead, or are they just lower priority than a lot of things,
or are we awaiting a fresh new insight?

These sorts of communications to the community are certainly essential
when trying to generate excitement about Clojure's forward momentum
for funding purposes, but even if Rich has abandoned funding in the
interest of not being tied to a specific set of commitments or
expectations, I hope that the core developers will still realize the
great community-building value of summarizing "where we have been and
where we hope to go".

About funding:

Last year, when Rich appealed for funding, he explained that without
the funding, it did not make rational economic sense for him to devote
his full time to Clojure development.  He would be forced to take
other contracting jobs, and less of his time would be spent on
Clojure.  So to me, the sad part of this announcement is that it
carries with it the implication that Clojure development is going to
slow down, because Rich will have to focus on things other than
Clojure in order to make money.  Is there any kind of middle ground
possible here?

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Re: Knuth's literate programming "tangle" function in Clojure

[Tim Daly]

 I looked at org-mode.

Note that 'literate programming' involves writing literature
for other people to read. The executable code is included as
a 'reduction to practice' but the emphasis is on describing
the ideas. Rich has some powerful ideas that he has reduced
to running code. What we need to do is start with a description
of the ideas and bridge the gap to the actual implementation.

Ideally you can read a literate program like a novel, from
beginning to end, and find that every line of code has a
'motivation' for being introduced. The side-effect is that
there is a reason why the idea is implemented in a particular
way rather than 'just because it worked'. Literate programming
tends to improve code quality because you have to explain it.

Emacs org-mode, on the other hand, is a useful development
technology but it really isn't literate programming.

Tim Daly

On 1/4/2011 9:34 AM, Seth wrote:

have you guys checked out org-mode + babel for emacs? This would be an
excellent place to start  to do literate programming. Interesting
ideas ... maybe i will try this in my own code ...



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Re: Funding 2011?

[Luke VanderHart]

For what it's worth, I am really glad of the position Rich is taking
on a roadmap and Clojure's future development. I would much rather
Clojure remained fresh, innovative and agile, and that it continues to
offer unexpected, delightful new features and abilities. It can't
really do that if Rich has to work through a years worth of mundane
improvements he's already committed to before he can implement a new
idea.

-Luke


On Jan 4, 11:45 am, Rich Hickey  wrote:
> On Jan 4, 2011, at 11:10 AM, Daniel Werner wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Rich,
>
> > On 4 January 2011 06:31, Rich Hickey  wrote:
> >> I was going to continue the funding effort, but have decided  
> >> against it for
> >> the reasons given here:
>
> > Regarding the "entitlement [...] as to what I do with my time", I
> > believe I know of one of the discussions that lead you to this
> > conclusion. It seems this discussion originated from a community
> > member's desire for a Clojure roadmap of some sorts, but quickly died
> > from emotional buttons having been pushed.
>
> > As for me, I too would appreciate a central place to read about the
> > "next big things" you are working on (apparently dev.clojure.org is in
> > the process of becoming this place), but am excited about the
> > direction Clojure is taking right now and would gladly donate if you
> > decided to accept funding again in the future.
>
> The Confluence instance at:
>
> http://dev.clojure.org/
>
> is definitely that place and is positively overflowing with design  
> docs and plans. And:
>
> http://dev.clojure.org/jira/
>
> lets you follow issues and changes being made.
>
> Clojure has never had a roadmap and won't have one any time soon.  
> Things get done when they can get done, given need and people with the  
> inclination, willingness, time and ability to do them (myself  
> included). That has always been the case.
>
> It has never been the case that at the beginning of a particular year  
> I could have predicted what would have been the big features developed  
> that year. Some things get hot and get done, while others need more  
> thinking time. I'm comfortable with that and happy with the results.  
> People need to be cautious not to become too infatuated with planning  
> and the ability to see the future than is supportable by an open  
> source project of this size.
>
> Rich

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Re: Having trouble with "reader.tasklist" class from Programming Clojure

[Stuart Halloway]

Things to try:

(1) Is the directory that contains "reader" on your classpath?

(2) Does it run with the provided script/repl.sh or script\repl.bat scripts?

Stu

> Hello everyone.
> 
> I am just starting out in Clojure by working through Programming Clojure. I 
> have run into a snag, though, on the reader/tasklist.clj example in chapter 
> 3. I am getting the following error consistently:
> 
> user=> (compile 'reader.tasklist)
> java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: reader.tasklist (tasklist.clj:13)
> 
> Line 13 is this line in the task-list defn:
> 
>(let [handler (new reader.tasklist)]
> 
> My complete reader/tasklist.clj is:
> 
> (ns reader.tasklist
>  (:gen-class
>   :extends org.xml.sax.helpers.DefaultHandler
>   :state state
>   :init init)
>  (:use [clojure.contrib.duck-streams :only (reader)])
>  (:import [java.io File]
>   [org.xml.sax InputSource]
>   [org.xml.sax.helpers DefaultHandler]
>   [javax.xml.parsers SAXParserFactory]))
> 
> (defn task-list [arg]
>  (let [handler (new reader.tasklist)]
>(.. SAXParserFactory newInstance newSAXParser
>(parse (InputSource. (reader (File. arg)))
>   handler))
>@(.state handler)))
> 
> (defn -main [& args]
>  (doseq [arg args]
>(println (task-list arg
> 
> (defn -init []
>  [[] (atom [])])
> 
> (defn -startElement [this uri local qname atts]
>  (when (= qname "target")
>(swap! (.state this) conj (.getValue atts "name"
> 
> I've compared this very thoroughly to examples/tasklist.clj in the Github 
> dist, but can't find any errors.
> 
> I'm working in a directory that has a "reader" sub-dir and a "classes" 
> sub-dir. "tasklist.clj" is in the "reader" directory. My REPL is launched 
> from my own hand-rolled launcher, but the command it executes is basically:
> 
> java -cp 
> .:/home/users/rjray/lib/clojure/clojure-contrib.jar:/home/users/rjray/lib/clojure/clojure.jar:/home/users/rjray/lib/java/jline.jar
>  jline.ConsoleRunner clojure.main
> 
> Everything up to now has run fine from within the REPL, this is the first 
> time I've tried compiling a class. I get the same error if I try C-c C-k from 
> a SLIME-enabled buffer in Emacs, as well.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Randy
> 
> -- 
> """
> Randy J. Ray Sunnyvale, CA 
> http://www.rjray.org
> rj...@blackperl.com 
> http://www.svsm.org
> randy.j@gmail.com
> 
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Re: c.c.sql 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT and lesser JDBC drivers

[Shantanu Kumar]

Sorry for the noise - please ignore the previous message. The test is
now failing in 1.2.0 too rather spectacularly. MS-Excel ODBC seems to
be a gross misfit for the JDBC-ODBC bridge driver, especially for
"optional" features as per the JDBC spec.

Shantanu

On Jan 4, 11:38 am, Shantanu Kumar  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I came across this when testing clojure.contrib.sql/insert-values with
> JDBC-ODBC bridge driver for MS-Excel files.
>
> c.c.sql/insert-values implementation has changed from 1.2.0 to 1.3.0-
> SNAPHOT wherein it uses a PreparedStatement (in 1.3.0-
> SNAPSHOT, .prepareStatement) instead of Statement
> (1.2.0, .createStatement). In my test this causes to break the use-
> case of inserting a new row into an Excel sheet because apparently the
> Excel ODBC driver does not support the JDBC PreparedStatement
> semantics.
>
> While it has been decided to use PreparedStatement for insert-values,
> it might be a good idea to introduce an alternative where the lesser
> JDBC drivers can work as well.
>
> Regards,
> Shantanu

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Re: Infinite recursion bug in clojure.lang.Keyword.intern()?

[Eric Tschetter]

Great!  No clue what I was looking at then.

--Eric


On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 5:53 AM, Rich Hickey  wrote:
>
> On Jan 3, 2011, at 5:43 PM, Eric Tschetter wrote:
>
>> I started getting StackOverflow exceptions today around
>> clojure.lang.Keyword (I'm running clojure 1.2.0, but the code doesn't
>> seem to be different in github master).
>
> It is different in master, this was already fixed.
>
> https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/167a73857a746e8dbeeb6d9ea8f99083aca7dc69
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rich
>
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Re: Loading JNI

[ax2groin]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look at the JNA soon to see if that
fits. But I already have working examples of Java code which uses the
JNI wrapper classes (generated by swig - by someone else). I'm not
making direct JNI calls myself, but trying to instantiate the Java
classes that are a part of this generated library. That's my confusion
and frustration, because seemingly identical code works in Java, but
doesn't work for me in Clojure ... either in Eclipse or from a command-
line, actually.

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#clojure in 2010

[Miki]

Greetings,

I ran some statistics on #clojure logs from 2010, you can view the results 
at http://clojurewise.blogspot.com/2011/01/clojure-in-2010.html
The code used to generate the statistics (if they can be called that) can be 
found at https://bitbucket.org/tebeka/clj2010/src/tip/src/clj2010.clj

All the best,
--
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Re: Knuth's literate programming "tangle" function in Clojure

[Tim Daly]

 I thought it was also but it appears to be used in place
of string, which I thought was odd. I'll look again.
Thanks for the answers.

On 1/4/2011 11:38 AM, Robert McIntyre wrote:

the #"" is a reader macro for regexes.

hope that helps,
--Robert McIntyre

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Tim Daly  wrote:

  The latest version of clojure.pamphlet can build Clojure
directly from the book. It dynamically builds the source
tree from the book, runs tests, creates the pdf, and
starts the REPL.

At least in theory. I am stuck with running a couple
tests. The only real change I've made to the sources
is to make it fit a printable page which involves
changing a line to make it shorter.

I've run into a syntax for strings that I don't understand.
The string #"some string" is used in the test files. The
documentation on the reader does not list this as a possible
input case. What does it mean?

Once I cross this hurdle everything else works and I can
post a new version for your experiments.

Tim

On 1/4/2011 10:49 AM, Hubert Iwaniuk wrote:

I would say start here:
http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/ob-doc-clojure.html

Cheers,
Hubert



On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Robert McIntyrewrote:

Just discovered org-mode myself --- does anyone know of guide to using
it with clojure for a total newbie?

sincerely,
--Robert McIntyre

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Hubert Iwaniukwrote:

Hi Seth,

Yes I did play with org-mode + babel for clojure.
It works great :-)
Just make sure you are using latest and greatest of org-mode.

Cheers,
Hubert.



On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Sethwrote:

have you guys checked out org-mode + babel for emacs? This would be an
excellent place to start  to do literate programming. Interesting
ideas ... maybe i will try this in my own code ...

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Re: Funding 2011?

[Rich Hickey]

On Jan 4, 2011, at 11:10 AM, Daniel Werner wrote:


Hi Rich,

On 4 January 2011 06:31, Rich Hickey  wrote:
I was going to continue the funding effort, but have decided  
against it for

the reasons given here:


Regarding the "entitlement [...] as to what I do with my time", I
believe I know of one of the discussions that lead you to this
conclusion. It seems this discussion originated from a community
member's desire for a Clojure roadmap of some sorts, but quickly died
from emotional buttons having been pushed.

As for me, I too would appreciate a central place to read about the
"next big things" you are working on (apparently dev.clojure.org is in
the process of becoming this place), but am excited about the
direction Clojure is taking right now and would gladly donate if you
decided to accept funding again in the future.




The Confluence instance at:

http://dev.clojure.org/

is definitely that place and is positively overflowing with design  
docs and plans. And:


http://dev.clojure.org/jira/

lets you follow issues and changes being made.

Clojure has never had a roadmap and won't have one any time soon.  
Things get done when they can get done, given need and people with the  
inclination, willingness, time and ability to do them (myself  
included). That has always been the case.


It has never been the case that at the beginning of a particular year  
I could have predicted what would have been the big features developed  
that year. Some things get hot and get done, while others need more  
thinking time. I'm comfortable with that and happy with the results.  
People need to be cautious not to become too infatuated with planning  
and the ability to see the future than is supportable by an open  
source project of this size.


Rich

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Re: Knuth's literate programming "tangle" function in Clojure

[Robert McIntyre]

the #"" is a reader macro for regexes.

hope that helps,
--Robert McIntyre

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Tim Daly  wrote:
>  The latest version of clojure.pamphlet can build Clojure
> directly from the book. It dynamically builds the source
> tree from the book, runs tests, creates the pdf, and
> starts the REPL.
>
> At least in theory. I am stuck with running a couple
> tests. The only real change I've made to the sources
> is to make it fit a printable page which involves
> changing a line to make it shorter.
>
> I've run into a syntax for strings that I don't understand.
> The string #"some string" is used in the test files. The
> documentation on the reader does not list this as a possible
> input case. What does it mean?
>
> Once I cross this hurdle everything else works and I can
> post a new version for your experiments.
>
> Tim
>
> On 1/4/2011 10:49 AM, Hubert Iwaniuk wrote:
>>
>> I would say start here:
>> http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/ob-doc-clojure.html
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Hubert
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Robert McIntyre  wrote:
>>>
>>> Just discovered org-mode myself --- does anyone know of guide to using
>>> it with clojure for a total newbie?
>>>
>>> sincerely,
>>> --Robert McIntyre
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Hubert Iwaniuk  wrote:

 Hi Seth,

 Yes I did play with org-mode + babel for clojure.
 It works great :-)
 Just make sure you are using latest and greatest of org-mode.

 Cheers,
 Hubert.



 On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Seth  wrote:
>
> have you guys checked out org-mode + babel for emacs? This would be an
> excellent place to start  to do literate programming. Interesting
> ideas ... maybe i will try this in my own code ...
>
> --
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>>>
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Re: Knuth's literate programming "tangle" function in Clojure

[Jeff Valk]

On Tuesday, January 04, 2011 at 10:18 am, Tim Daly wrote:
> I've run into a syntax for strings that I don't understand.
> The string #"some string" is used in the test files. The
> documentation on the reader does not list this as a possible
> input case. What does it mean?

It's reader syntax for a regular expression.

user=> (type #"some string")
java.util.regex.Pattern

It and its reader macro friends can be found here:
http://clojure.org/reader

> Once I cross this hurdle everything else works and I can
> post a new version for your experiments.

Thanks for your efforts on this. I'm quite interested in its potential!

- Jeff

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Re: Knuth's literate programming "tangle" function in Clojure

[Tim Daly]

 The latest version of clojure.pamphlet can build Clojure
directly from the book. It dynamically builds the source
tree from the book, runs tests, creates the pdf, and
starts the REPL.

At least in theory. I am stuck with running a couple
tests. The only real change I've made to the sources
is to make it fit a printable page which involves
changing a line to make it shorter.

I've run into a syntax for strings that I don't understand.
The string #"some string" is used in the test files. The
documentation on the reader does not list this as a possible
input case. What does it mean?

Once I cross this hurdle everything else works and I can
post a new version for your experiments.

Tim

On 1/4/2011 10:49 AM, Hubert Iwaniuk wrote:

I would say start here:
http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/ob-doc-clojure.html

Cheers,
Hubert



On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Robert McIntyre  wrote:

Just discovered org-mode myself --- does anyone know of guide to using
it with clojure for a total newbie?

sincerely,
--Robert McIntyre

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Hubert Iwaniuk  wrote:

Hi Seth,

Yes I did play with org-mode + babel for clojure.
It works great :-)
Just make sure you are using latest and greatest of org-mode.

Cheers,
Hubert.



On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Seth  wrote:

have you guys checked out org-mode + babel for emacs? This would be an
excellent place to start  to do literate programming. Interesting
ideas ... maybe i will try this in my own code ...

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Re: Funding 2011?

[Daniel Werner]

Hi Rich,

On 4 January 2011 06:31, Rich Hickey  wrote:
> I was going to continue the funding effort, but have decided against it for
> the reasons given here:

Regarding the "entitlement [...] as to what I do with my time", I
believe I know of one of the discussions that lead you to this
conclusion. It seems this discussion originated from a community
member's desire for a Clojure roadmap of some sorts, but quickly died
from emotional buttons having been pushed.

As for me, I too would appreciate a central place to read about the
"next big things" you are working on (apparently dev.clojure.org is in
the process of becoming this place), but am excited about the
direction Clojure is taking right now and would gladly donate if you
decided to accept funding again in the future.

Regards,
--
Daniel

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Re: Has Clojure Fixed the Social Problem that LISP is Too Powerful?

[André Thieme]

Am 03.01.2011 21:45, schrieb pavelludiq:


On Jan 3, 11:24 am, Jozef Wagner  wrote:

Some of my arguments are:
- Clojure has no custom reader macros, makes it easier to read others code
- Protocols and the way clojure handles data helps to explicitly formulate
specifications and designs
- Fresh syntax which improves readability
- Easy integration with familiar technologies thanks to JVM
- Modern collection types, not just lists


I've been playing a lot with common lisp these last few months, I'll
just share my oppinion on these points:

- Reader macros. How often are they used in common lisp anyway? And
how many of these uses are abusive or inappropriate? I don't believe
this has such a great impact on clojures popularity.


I also don’t think that the lack of RMs is what made Clojure popular.



- Im no expert in neither clojure protocols or CLOS, and I'd love for
someone more knowledgeable to confirm or deny my suspicions, but
aren't clojure protocols a variation on lisp generic functions, made
to fit the jvm better and give better performance? What, other than
absence of inheritance, do they give you over GFs? You can write java-
like code in CLOS, but the way I've been using it is very similar to
the way i use protocols in clojure.


Yes, you are right. Protocols are a special case of Clojures GFs, which
cover, say, 90% of all cases and do so more efficiently.
In principle they are syntactic sugar for hand written dispatch code.
From that perspective
Protocols < CLs GFs < Clojures GFs < Pattern Matching



- If by fresh syntax you mean reader support for vectors and hash-
tables, i agree, it's very convenient to have it built in, in common
lisp I'd have to write my own reader macros to do it. And i'd have to
document it, and tell everyone on my team to use it and not to get
confused.


Unfortunately all code that is already written does not use those RMs.
It is of high value that Clojure enforces these RMs on all its users,
and being able to reproduce this in CL does not make up for it.
If you wish to end up with a modern and readable version of CL you would
have to make it look like Clojure. But then one could take the original
right away…



- I don't believe i understand this completely, do you mean library
support? If so, i agree.


ABCL, a CL implementation has the same support for libraries. It can
even use Clojures persistent data structures.



- Yes, clojures persistent collections are a huge win, and i miss them
in common lisp


There is fset. Not as nice as what Clojure offers, but still better than
nothing. Also, if ABCL meets your requirements you can add Clojure as a
dependency and use it as a lib.



In my opinion, and im sure some might disagree, even though clojure
has a lot of technical advantages over other lisp dialects, and is
generally a very well designed language, its popularity is mostly the
result of exceptionally good marketing.


I could believe that more if other Lisps had not a few more decades of
time to develop/evolve a better marketing strategy. There were big
amounts of money in, Apple tried to do Dylan, and as mentioned tons of time.
I can agree that Rich’s marketing skills are involved in Clojures
success, but I doubt that they are the main reason.

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Re: Knuth's literate programming "tangle" function in Clojure

[Hubert Iwaniuk]

I would say start here:
http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/ob-doc-clojure.html

Cheers,
Hubert



On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Robert McIntyre  wrote:
> Just discovered org-mode myself --- does anyone know of guide to using
> it with clojure for a total newbie?
>
> sincerely,
> --Robert McIntyre
>
> On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Hubert Iwaniuk  wrote:
>> Hi Seth,
>>
>> Yes I did play with org-mode + babel for clojure.
>> It works great :-)
>> Just make sure you are using latest and greatest of org-mode.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Hubert.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Seth  wrote:
>>> have you guys checked out org-mode + babel for emacs? This would be an
>>> excellent place to start  to do literate programming. Interesting
>>> ideas ... maybe i will try this in my own code ...
>>>
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Re: Funding 2011?

[Laurent PETIT]

2011/1/4 Rich Hickey 

>
> On Nov 28, 2010, at 9:07 PM, Jeremy Dunck wrote:
>
>  In Dec 2009, Rich asked the community to step up and support core
>> development -- and the community came through.
>>
>> I'm interested in clojure, but not using it professionally yet.  I was
>> wondering if funding for 2011 has already been worked out, or if it is
>> an open question?
>>
>>
>
> I was going to continue the funding effort, but have decided against it for
> the reasons given here:
>
> http://clojure.org/funding
>
> Many thanks to those who participated,
>

I was going to reiterate my participation to the funding effort, without any
hesitation, so right now I'm a little bit surprised, and am having mixed
feelings about this.

I think I'll let things calm down, and maybe react non-emotionally later if
I find it appropriate.

Rich, we're *with* you ! (and hopefully not *on your* shoulders)

-- 
Laurent

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Re: Funding 2011?

[Mike Meyer]

On Tue, 4 Jan 2011 09:31:13 -0500
Rich Hickey  wrote:
> On Nov 28, 2010, at 9:07 PM, Jeremy Dunck wrote:
> > In Dec 2009, Rich asked the community to step up and support core
> > development -- and the community came through.
> > I'm interested in clojure, but not using it professionally yet.  I was
> > wondering if funding for 2011 has already been worked out, or if it is
> > an open question?

> I was going to continue the funding effort, but have decided against  
> it for the reasons given here:
> 
> http://clojure.org/funding
> 
> Many thanks to those who participated,

That is very sad, but I do understand the problem.

Possibly an approach like that taken by FreeBSD - with a foundation
that is legally distinct from the core developers - might work for
you:

http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about.shtml

 http://www.mired.org/consulting.html
Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information.

O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org

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Re: Knuth's literate programming "tangle" function in Clojure

[Robert McIntyre]

Just discovered org-mode myself --- does anyone know of guide to using
it with clojure for a total newbie?

sincerely,
--Robert McIntyre

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Hubert Iwaniuk  wrote:
> Hi Seth,
>
> Yes I did play with org-mode + babel for clojure.
> It works great :-)
> Just make sure you are using latest and greatest of org-mode.
>
> Cheers,
> Hubert.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Seth  wrote:
>> have you guys checked out org-mode + babel for emacs? This would be an
>> excellent place to start  to do literate programming. Interesting
>> ideas ... maybe i will try this in my own code ...
>>
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Re: Knuth's literate programming "tangle" function in Clojure

[Hubert Iwaniuk]

Hi Seth,

Yes I did play with org-mode + babel for clojure.
It works great :-)
Just make sure you are using latest and greatest of org-mode.

Cheers,
Hubert.



On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Seth  wrote:
> have you guys checked out org-mode + babel for emacs? This would be an
> excellent place to start  to do literate programming. Interesting
> ideas ... maybe i will try this in my own code ...
>
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Re: Funding 2011?

[Baishampayan Ghose]

> I was going to continue the funding effort, but have decided against it for
> the reasons given here:
>
> http://clojure.org/funding
>
> Many thanks to those who participated,

I donated in 2010 and was going to donate for 2011 in a week's time. I
never had any sense of entitlement -- for a lot of people funding the
project was a way of showing that we care.

I understand what you are talking about and this is very depressing...

Regards,
BG

-- 
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b.ghose at gmail.com

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Re: Knuth's literate programming "tangle" function in Clojure

[Seth]

have you guys checked out org-mode + babel for emacs? This would be an
excellent place to start  to do literate programming. Interesting
ideas ... maybe i will try this in my own code ...

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Re: Funding 2011?

[Rich Hickey]

On Nov 28, 2010, at 9:07 PM, Jeremy Dunck wrote:


In Dec 2009, Rich asked the community to step up and support core
development -- and the community came through.

I'm interested in clojure, but not using it professionally yet.  I was
wondering if funding for 2011 has already been worked out, or if it is
an open question?




I was going to continue the funding effort, but have decided against  
it for the reasons given here:


http://clojure.org/funding

Many thanks to those who participated,

Rich

p.s. If you participated during the brief interval when funding was  
directed at Clojure/core, your contribution will be refunded.


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Re: Infinite recursion bug in clojure.lang.Keyword.intern()?

[Rich Hickey]

On Jan 3, 2011, at 5:43 PM, Eric Tschetter wrote:


I started getting StackOverflow exceptions today around
clojure.lang.Keyword (I'm running clojure 1.2.0, but the code doesn't
seem to be different in github master).


It is different in master, this was already fixed.

https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/167a73857a746e8dbeeb6d9ea8f99083aca7dc69

Thanks,

Rich

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Re: Insertion - The clojure way [HTDP]

[Eli Barzilay]

> In other words, this kind of stack-consuming implementation would be a
> perfectly practical, useful implementation in Racket

Even more than that -- in some cases the simple non-TCO version can be
faster than the usual TCO + reverse-the-accumulator thing.  Here's a
random example:

Welcome to Racket v5.0.99.6.
-> (define (append1 l1 l2) (if (null? l1) l2 (cons (car l1) (append (cdr l1) 
l2
-> (define (append2 l1 l2) (let loop ([l1 (reverse l1)] [l2 l2]) (if (null? l1) 
l2 (loop (cdr l1) (cons (car l1) l2)
-> (define l1 (make-list 100 2))
-> (define l2 (make-list 100 2))
-> ,time 11 (for ([i (in-range 20)]) (append1 l1 l2))
;; run #1... -> #
...
;; run #11... -> #
;; 11 runs, 3 best/worst removed, 5 left for average:
;; cpu time: 2529ms = 453ms + 2076ms gc; real time: 2530ms
-> ,time 11 (for ([i (in-range 20)]) (append2 l1 l2))
;; run #1... -> #
...
;; run #11... -> #
;; 11 runs, 3 best/worst removed, 5 left for average:
;; cpu time: 4026ms = 896ms + 3130ms gc; real time: 4026ms


-- 
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Having trouble with "reader.tasklist" class from Programming Clojure

[Randy J. Ray]

Hello everyone.

I am just starting out in Clojure by working through Programming Clojure. I 
have run into a snag, though, on the reader/tasklist.clj example in chapter 3. 
I am getting the following error consistently:


user=> (compile 'reader.tasklist)
java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: reader.tasklist (tasklist.clj:13)

Line 13 is this line in the task-list defn:

(let [handler (new reader.tasklist)]

My complete reader/tasklist.clj is:

(ns reader.tasklist
  (:gen-class
   :extends org.xml.sax.helpers.DefaultHandler
   :state state
   :init init)
  (:use [clojure.contrib.duck-streams :only (reader)])
  (:import [java.io File]
   [org.xml.sax InputSource]
   [org.xml.sax.helpers DefaultHandler]
   [javax.xml.parsers SAXParserFactory]))

(defn task-list [arg]
  (let [handler (new reader.tasklist)]
(.. SAXParserFactory newInstance newSAXParser
(parse (InputSource. (reader (File. arg)))
   handler))
@(.state handler)))

(defn -main [& args]
  (doseq [arg args]
(println (task-list arg

(defn -init []
  [[] (atom [])])

(defn -startElement [this uri local qname atts]
  (when (= qname "target")
(swap! (.state this) conj (.getValue atts "name"

I've compared this very thoroughly to examples/tasklist.clj in the Github dist, 
but can't find any errors.


I'm working in a directory that has a "reader" sub-dir and a "classes" sub-dir. 
"tasklist.clj" is in the "reader" directory. My REPL is launched from my own 
hand-rolled launcher, but the command it executes is basically:


java -cp 
.:/home/users/rjray/lib/clojure/clojure-contrib.jar:/home/users/rjray/lib/clojure/clojure.jar:/home/users/rjray/lib/java/jline.jar 
jline.ConsoleRunner clojure.main


Everything up to now has run fine from within the REPL, this is the first time 
I've tried compiling a class. I get the same error if I try C-c C-k from a 
SLIME-enabled buffer in Emacs, as well.


Any suggestions?

Randy

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"""
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Re: Has Clojure Fixed the Social Problem that LISP is Too Powerful?

[Shantanu Kumar]

On Jan 3, 2:24 pm, Jozef Wagner  wrote:
> Our team works on big EU projects, where there are many technical partners
> from different countries cooperating. Most of our work is about choosing a
> good technology and then about customizing and integrating it into our
> system. Usually SOA, Enterprise Java and semantic web technologies are in
> place.
>
> Many people argue (and my colleagues are among them) that LISP is not
> suitable for such environments (many coders, tests and use cases, have
> to produce explicit designs and specifications e.g. because other team who
> builds on your work is in different country). They say LISP is a hacker
> language for lone warriors, not suited for big teams, where code must be
> understood by many.
>
> See 
> alsohttp://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LispIsTooPowerful,http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SocialProblemsOfLispandhttp://c2.com/cgi/wiki?HackerLanguage
>
> They are IMO right if by LISP a Common Lisp is meant. But I have a feeling
> (and I want to believe) that Clojure has largely fixed this social problem
> of LISP, just like it has fixed the other big social problems of LISP,
> namelyhttp://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LispUsersAreArrogant:)
>
> My colleagues all know and have been using LISP (in academics), we are an AI
> department after all. How can I explain them that Clojure is also useful
> for enterprise projects and big teams? Or is it not?
>
> Some of my arguments are:
> - Clojure has no custom reader macros, makes it easier to read others code
> - Protocols and the way clojure handles data helps to explicitly formulate
> specifications and designs
> - Fresh syntax which improves readability
> - Easy integration with familiar technologies thanks to JVM
> - Modern collection types, not just lists
>
> What are your thoughts? How would you argue?

I answered some of those questions (w.r.t. Clojure 1.0) here:
http://bitumenframework.blogspot.com/2009/09/benefits-of-using-clojure-lisp-in.html

My main agenda is Clojure's overall power-to-weight ratio and the way
it blends with the Java eco-system. I'd leave the _social-angle_ for
subject-matter experts to comment upon. :)

Regards,
Shantanu

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Re: Clojure Newbie trying to represent electrical circuit

[Saul Hazledine]

Hello Michael,

On Jan 3, 7:40 pm, MS <5lvqbw...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
> Hi, I'm new to clojure (though I've messed around in scheme a little)
> and I'm trying to represent an electrical circuit with "pins" and
> "nets" (ie in graph terminology vertices and edges).
>
> I'd like to represent the nets as {:name "net_name" :pins #{pin1 pin2
> pin3}} etc.
> I'd like to represent each pin as {:name "pin_name" :net the_net :type
> pin_type}
>
> I want to query the net for all its attached pins, and to query any
> pin to see what net it's attached to.  The problem here is that these
> are mutually-referring things.  The net refers to the pins and each
> pin refers back to the net.
>

I found it difficult to find, but I remembered a thread on something
similar:

http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/604b48a520aa0253/5e3f5d3d1d870557?lnk=gst&q=cross+referencing+objects#5e3f5d3d1d870557

The answer from David Nolen mentioned some little used functions of
the Clojure language that may be useful for you.

Saul

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