Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Christopher Small]

I really like what you said here Mark:

>From a technological standpoint, I think we're there.  The things we most
> need are informational resources and higher-level shared resources, such as
> UI widgets.  For example:
>

I fully agree. I don't think we've moved in a wrong direction at all. Just
that we need to continue building on what we already have, and do so in the
right directions.

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[gvim]

On 03/05/2015 05:24, Sean Corfield wrote:

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Mark Engelberg mailto:mark.engelb...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Clojure is great for creating new, disruptive web models, but what's
the easiest path to creating something that can be done trivially
with, say, Drupal or Django?


The question tho' is why you'd want to use Clojure for something that is
already trivially solved with free packaged software for widely used
scripting languages where cheap, plentiful developers are falling over
themselves to help... :)

Clojure doesn't have to be the solution for every problem. It certainly
doesn't need to be the solution for low-value problems...


Forgive me if that sounds a little elitist. What if I want to do what 
Django can do but in Clojure? If Clojure is a better option there should 
be something which can do more than Django. If my only choice is library 
composition by definition it doesn't do what Django does well, ie. a 
fully-structured setup out of the box with a predictable, best of breed 
set of technologies.


There are many businesses, large and small, who will only go with a 
well-established web framework with a vibrant community. Sadly, 
Clojure's preference for protecting its niche means it will never be an 
option for these opportunities, hence its poor showing in job listings. 
Do we, as a community, want to be paid for what we do?


There's one factor missing from this discussion which is framework 
community. I think there's immense value in the community factor which 
emerges when a web framework gains a lot of mindshare. From what I've 
read in this thread there will probably never be anything like RailsConf 
for a Clojure web framework simply because shared knowledge can only go 
so far with the library composition approach.



Perfection is the enemy of the good (Gustave Flaubert).


"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." (Aristotle)

gvim

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Sven Richter]

Hi Colin,

Regarding payment I'd choose something like stripe or whatever fits your 
needs and look for a clojure api or wrapper around a java api. Implementing 
payment stuff yourself might get you in a lot of legal trouble anyhwere in 
the world.

However, I'd agree that there may be the need for better documentation on 
integration of all the libraries, whereas I have to say that luminus does a 
pretty good job for what it offers, regarding the documentation.

Best Regards,
Sven

Am Sonntag, 3. Mai 2015 08:21:31 UTC+2 schrieb Colin Fleming:
>
> Because, in my case, I'm going to need a website shortly that I can use to 
> sell Cursive. I'd really like to use Clojure for that. I could use Rails or 
> Django which would make the site itself trivial, except I don't know either 
> of them and then I'm stuck maintaining something in a language and 
> framework I have no interest in and don't understand how to deploy or 
> maintain. Or I could do it in Clojure which means that I understand the 
> libraries, frameworks, deployment and monitoring inside and out, except I 
> now have to implement a shopping cart and integrations with payments 
> gateways etc. Neither of these are great options for me.
>
> On 3 May 2015 at 16:24, Sean Corfield > 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Mark Engelberg > > wrote:
>>
>>> Clojure is great for creating new, disruptive web models, but what's the 
>>> easiest path to creating something that can be done trivially with, say, 
>>> Drupal or Django?
>>>
>>
>> The question tho' is why you'd want to use Clojure for something that is 
>> already trivially solved with free packaged software for widely used 
>> scripting languages where cheap, plentiful developers are falling over 
>> themselves to help... :)
>>
>> Clojure doesn't have to be the solution for every problem. It certainly 
>> doesn't need to be the solution for low-value problems...
>> -- 
>> Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
>> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
>> World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
>>
>> "Perfection is the enemy of the good."
>> -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
>>  
>> -- 
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>
>

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Sven Richter]

Hi,

Am Sonntag, 3. Mai 2015 11:38:14 UTC+2 schrieb g vim:
>
> On 03/05/2015 05:24, Sean Corfield wrote: 
> > On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Mark Engelberg   
> > > wrote: 
> > 
> > Clojure is great for creating new, disruptive web models, but what's 
> > the easiest path to creating something that can be done trivially 
> > with, say, Drupal or Django? 
> > 
> > 
> > The question tho' is why you'd want to use Clojure for something that is 
> > already trivially solved with free packaged software for widely used 
> > scripting languages where cheap, plentiful developers are falling over 
> > themselves to help... :) 
> > 
> > Clojure doesn't have to be the solution for every problem. It certainly 
> > doesn't need to be the solution for low-value problems... 
>
> Forgive me if that sounds a little elitist. What if I want to do what 
> Django can do but in Clojure? If Clojure is a better option there should 
> be something which can do more than Django. If my only choice is library 
> composition by definition it doesn't do what Django does well, ie. a 
> fully-structured setup out of the box with a predictable, best of breed 
> set of technologies. 
>
> There are many businesses, large and small, who will only go with a 
> well-established web framework with a vibrant community. Sadly, 
> Clojure's preference for protecting its niche means it will never be an 
> option for these opportunities, hence its poor showing in job listings. 
> Do we, as a community, want to be paid for what we do? 
>

Again I am missing some exact requests on what can be done in django that 
cannot be done in clojure? This by no means an offense, I am just curious 
about your experiences.

Best Regards,
Sven

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[ANN] Catacumba 0.1.0-alpha2: Asynchronous and non-blocking web toolkit for Clojure

[Andrey Antukh]

Hi!

I'm happy to announce the second alpha of catacumba, the asynchronous and
non-blocking web toolkit for Clojure build on top of ratpack[1] and
netty[2].

This release is focused in add a great a mount of features missing from the
first release and improve some internals for make it more flexible.

Here a incomplete list of added features:

- Add Server-Sent Events support.
- Add CORS support.
- Add security related chain helpers (x-frame-options,
strict-transport-security, the content-security-policy and
x-content-type-options).
- Add support for manifold deferreds and streams.
- Add support for get/set cookies.
- Add basic support for sessions (very experimental and internal api will
change in the next version).
- Add special functions for add callback function that will be executed
when connection is closed and just before send the response to client.
- Add dispatch by method to the routing system.
- Support for stuartsierra/component

You can see the complete release notes here:
https://github.com/funcool/catacumba/releases/tag/0.1.0-alpha2

Additionally, it comes with two examples (in the next release I have plans
add other two), one for see how we can use prone for better error reporting
and other is a multiuser chat using Server-Sent Events and stuartsierra
component.
More information about examples here:
https://funcool.github.io/catacumba/latest/#_examples

Documentation: https://funcool.github.io/catacumba/latest/
Github: https://github.com/funcool/catacumba

[1]: http://ratpack.io/
[2]: http://netty.io/

Cheers.
Andrey

-- 
Andrey Antukh - Андрей Антух -  / 
http://www.niwi.be 
https://github.com/niwibe

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Re: Adding components to a stuartsierra/component system at runtime

[Stuart Sierra]

Hi Chap,

There isn't, unfortunately, a good way to modify systems after they have 
are started. I have put a fair amount of thought into this but never come 
up with a  solution I was satisfied with.

In your case, I think I would suggest creating one system just to load the 
configuration data and then using it to bootstrap another system.

–S


On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 11:02:00 PM UTC+1, Chap Lovejoy wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm building a system which handles data synchronization with remote 
> services. The credentials and configuration parameters for the remote 
> services are stored in the database. I'd like to be able to build a 
> component which is constructed from the information from the database and 
> uses component to resolve the dependencies for other components in the 
> system (s3, etc). Is there a mechanism for either adding components to a 
> system at runtime or resolving the dependencies for a component which can 
> then be stored as part of the state of another?
>
> Thanks,
> Chap
>

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Dylan Bijnagte]

In my experience many applications are built using web frameworks because 
the often complex data models of corporate apps require significant UI for 
administration and UI or API for data entry. The application gets written 
using a language / framework that is optimized around that. Clojure is well 
positioned to handle the data processing portion of these applications 
where there real business value is derived, unfortunately that ends up 
getting implemented in the same language / framework due to developer 
familiarity and concerns about supportability.

Benefits of opinionated frameworks include:

   - free developers up from the need to make decisions about libraries 
   - consistent project structure enables people familiar with the 
   framework to quickly get oriented
   - keep less experienced developers from making major architecture 
   mistakes.
   - developers don't need to be experts on everything

Right now the cost of entry to Clojure web development is high because of 
the fragmentation, documentation, and paradigm shift. I believe that highly 
skilled developers can be far more productive using Clojure once familiar 
with the ecosystem and language. They have to get started though and there 
are often junior people on the team that will have a harder time coming up 
to speed.

My feeling is that if the "low value" portions of the application can't be 
trivially written in Clojure then the complex parts won't be either.

Dylan 

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 3:28:59 AM UTC-5, Christopher Small wrote:
>
> I really like what you said here Mark:
>
> From a technological standpoint, I think we're there.  The things we most 
>> need are informational resources and higher-level shared resources, such as 
>> UI widgets.  For example:
>>
>
> I fully agree. I don't think we've moved in a wrong direction at all. Just 
> that we need to continue building on what we already have, and do so in the 
> right directions.
>

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Herwig Hochleitner]

​To me, the idea of a framework is embodied by a set processing tools,
whose primary design goal is to work best in concert with each other.
I rather enjoy working with libraries, whose primary design goal is to work
well in any technology stack. I don't think those are mutually exclusive,
but working with libraries often sacrifices the ability to put a brand on
your technology stack, at first, because building out of libraries means
mixing and matching.

I think the right way towards a more coherent whole is to identify
libraries with overlapping concerns and for their maintainers to converge
on a common data format. Then "framework" brands can be created as specific
compositions of those general purpose libraries. Ring, for example, pull
this off with great success: I'm pretty sure that any clojure web framework
is going to support it as an http representation.
Of course, one might say that making it easy to create a framework hurts
the goal of getting the community unified behind a single brand. Then again
to me, being able to quickly create a highly specific surface to very
general and composable innards, is a big part to the purpose of
homoiconicity.

That said, I do feel positive towards providing orientation on how to get
stuff done, but I would urge anybody attempting to provide it, to first
view any of their puzzle pieces in isolation and ask: "How would somebody
use this, who took no part in the rest of my framework"

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[larry google groups]

The industry has been moving against frameworks for 15 years now. The peak 
of the monolithic framework craze was Struts, back in 2000. After that, 
people started craving something less bloated. That's why the whole 
industry was so excited when Rails emerged in 2004. Bruce Eckel summed up 
the sudden change of mood in his essay "The departure of the 
hyper-enthusiasts":

http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=141312

But after awhile, people began to feel that even Rails was bloated, which 
lead to the emergence of micro-frameworks like Sinatra. 

And then, continuing with the trend, we've seen the emergence of 
eco-systems, such as Clojure, that allow the trend to go further: Clojure 
supports such high levels composition that frameworks are no longer needed. 
And this is the direction the industry has been moving for the last 15 
years. Clojure is simply out in front. Most languages don't allow this 
level of composition. 




On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 8:15:54 PM UTC-4, g vim wrote:
>
> On 03/05/2015 00:53, Christopher Small wrote: 
> > I disagree with the premise entirely. I think that the Clojure community 
> > has just done a better job of building smaller, more modular tooling. 
> > And this is frankly something I prefer, and find refreshing in the 
> > Clojure sphere (as compared with my previous Rails webdev experience). 
> > 
> > Note that to put things on the same footing, you'd want to be noting 
> > that Luminus depend on Ring and Compojure, with commit counts 761 and 
> > 865 resp, and contributor counts 73 and 29 resp. 
> > 
> > I'm not saying that Clojure can't improve it's offering in web dev with 
> > added libraries etc, but I wouldn't want to see us move away from the 
> > modularity with which we've built things, because I think it's a win. 
> > 
> > Just my 2 c 
> > 
> > Chris Small 
>
> Most decent web frameworks these days are built from modular components 
> so this distinction is a bit laboured. Rails is built on top of Active* 
> and Rack so the Ring/Compojure distinction is illusory. Laravel is built 
> on top of Symfony components it could be argued that Symfony has played 
> a similar role to Ring/Compojure in the PHP community. 
>
> Clojure's modular approach is great but I just don't see the need to 
> polarise when there's such a strong business case for structured 
> frameworks. If you look at most of the jobs in web development at 
> Indeed.com they're almost exclusively framework-based. Modular is great 
> but it would also be nice to see a few more Clojure jobs advertised. 
>
> gvim 
>
>

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[gvim]

On 03/05/2015 14:39, larry google groups wrote:

The industry has been moving against frameworks for 15 years now. The
peak of the monolithic framework craze was Struts, back in 2000. After
that, people started craving something less bloated. That's why the
whole industry was so excited when Rails emerged in 2004. Bruce Eckel
summed up the sudden change of mood in his essay "The departure of the
hyper-enthusiasts":

http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=141312

But after awhile, people began to feel that even Rails was bloated,
which lead to the emergence of micro-frameworks like Sinatra.

And then, continuing with the trend, we've seen the emergence of
eco-systems, such as Clojure, that allow the trend to go further:
Clojure supports such high levels composition that frameworks are no
longer needed. And this is the direction the industry has been moving
for the last 15 years. Clojure is simply out in front. Most languages
don't allow this level of composition.



The web development industry as reflected in job postings at 
Indeed.co.uk is still dominated by the likes of Rails, Django, Laravel, 
Zend, Symfony & Spring so I'm not sure how you've concluded that there's 
been a 15-year trend towards composition. Ruby and Python have had 
lightweight composable alternatives for many years but Rails and Django 
still dominate. I'm not against the composition at all. I just think we 
need more structured alternatives that we can at least brand and market 
as well as teach to Clojure beginners.


gvim

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Timothy Baldridge]

And that's the power of a system written in Clojure. You're not forced into
some industry standard way of doing things that may not fit your needs.

When I read Colin's report on Clojure at RoomKey
http://www.colinsteele.org/post/23103789647/against-the-grain-aws-clojure-startup
or Paul talking about Clojure at Consumer Reports (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNkYYYyfF48), or how walmart uses Clojure (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av9Xi6CNqq4*), *I don't see
one-stop-solutions. That's the niche I see Clojure fitting in. Not in the
"Let's build a site in 10 hours", niche. But in the "We have a year to do
something no one has done before, so let's stop and think hard for a month
before we even start to write our code"

But isn't that what Rich has been ranting about for years? Clojure isn't
easy, but it is (mostly) simple. Simple software may slow you down at
first, but as your project matures, you'll make up that time in spades due
to the simplicity of your system.

Timothy

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 7:39 AM, larry google groups <
lawrencecloj...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The industry has been moving against frameworks for 15 years now. The peak
> of the monolithic framework craze was Struts, back in 2000. After that,
> people started craving something less bloated. That's why the whole
> industry was so excited when Rails emerged in 2004. Bruce Eckel summed up
> the sudden change of mood in his essay "The departure of the
> hyper-enthusiasts":
>
> http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=141312
>
> But after awhile, people began to feel that even Rails was bloated, which
> lead to the emergence of micro-frameworks like Sinatra.
>
> And then, continuing with the trend, we've seen the emergence of
> eco-systems, such as Clojure, that allow the trend to go further: Clojure
> supports such high levels composition that frameworks are no longer needed.
> And this is the direction the industry has been moving for the last 15
> years. Clojure is simply out in front. Most languages don't allow this
> level of composition.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 8:15:54 PM UTC-4, g vim wrote:
>>
>> On 03/05/2015 00:53, Christopher Small wrote:
>> > I disagree with the premise entirely. I think that the Clojure
>> community
>> > has just done a better job of building smaller, more modular tooling.
>> > And this is frankly something I prefer, and find refreshing in the
>> > Clojure sphere (as compared with my previous Rails webdev experience).
>> >
>> > Note that to put things on the same footing, you'd want to be noting
>> > that Luminus depend on Ring and Compojure, with commit counts 761 and
>> > 865 resp, and contributor counts 73 and 29 resp.
>> >
>> > I'm not saying that Clojure can't improve it's offering in web dev with
>> > added libraries etc, but I wouldn't want to see us move away from the
>> > modularity with which we've built things, because I think it's a win.
>> >
>> > Just my 2 c
>> >
>> > Chris Small
>>
>> Most decent web frameworks these days are built from modular components
>> so this distinction is a bit laboured. Rails is built on top of Active*
>> and Rack so the Ring/Compojure distinction is illusory. Laravel is built
>> on top of Symfony components it could be argued that Symfony has played
>> a similar role to Ring/Compojure in the PHP community.
>>
>> Clojure's modular approach is great but I just don't see the need to
>> polarise when there's such a strong business case for structured
>> frameworks. If you look at most of the jobs in web development at
>> Indeed.com they're almost exclusively framework-based. Modular is great
>> but it would also be nice to see a few more Clojure jobs advertised.
>>
>> gvim
>>
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Re: Embedded systems and transpiling Clojure to Nim

[Herwig Hochleitner]

Tim,

I agree that porting enough of rpython to run pixie seems like the best way
to get started on a given bare-metal platform. Not least because pypy's
contributors would certainly be sympathetic to that effort.

Still, a piece that I'd really love to see is, what I call rclojure: That
is, tools for working with an allocation-free subset of clojure (think
asm.js); optimizing it based on inference and/or profiling; transpiling it
into various various bytecodes that lack a built-in gc; finally a code
transformer that can map code with deterministic stack usage into that
subset.

That would be useful not only for native code generators, but also for
talking to APIs that let you define data formats that you pass, like OpenGL
vertex buffers.

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Andy Fingerhut]

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 2:37 AM, gvim  wrote:

> On 03/05/2015 05:24, Sean Corfield wrote:
>
>  Perfection is the enemy of the good (Gustave Flaubert).
>>
>
> "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." (Aristotle)
>
> gvim


“What you're supposed to do when you don't like a thing is change it. If
you can't change it, change the way you think about it. Don't complain.”
― Maya Angelou 

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Mohit Thatte]

+1 to what Sven said.

To quote from  Rails is Omakase


Rails is omakase. A team of chefs picked out the ingredients, designed the
> APIs, and arranged the order of consumption on your behalf according to
> their idea of what would make for a tasty full-stack framework. The menu
> can be both personal and quirky. It isn't designed to appeal to the taste
> of everyone, everywhere.
>

This is exactly what projects like Luminus do - curate a list of libraries
that play well together and give you the functionality you need to build a
web app.

The downside of a 'framework' like Rails is that you get the whole boatload
of dependencies whether you need them or not. With lein templates, you are
free to pick and choose what you like.

~Mohit


On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Andy Fingerhut 
wrote:

> On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 2:37 AM, gvim  wrote:
>
>> On 03/05/2015 05:24, Sean Corfield wrote:
>>
>>  Perfection is the enemy of the good (Gustave Flaubert).
>>>
>>
>> "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." (Aristotle)
>>
>> gvim
>
>
> “What you're supposed to do when you don't like a thing is change it. If
> you can't change it, change the way you think about it. Don't complain.”
> ― Maya Angelou 
>
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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Fluid Dynamics]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 2:12:02 AM UTC-4, Sven Richter wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Reading through all the discussion I don't get which features you are 
> actually missing. I love luminus and did a lot with it, however, for me it 
> was missing some standard stuff, that's why I put together closp, which is 
> just another leiningen template providing some more features out of the box.
> I'd consider adding even more features if you would become more specific 
> in terms of features.
>
> For the rest I agree with what is mostly said here, the beauty of clojure 
> lies in the nature of small composable building blocks and the same goes 
> for frameworks, so, basically it's all there, one just has to put it 
> together. And to not have to put it together by hand time and time again 
> there are leiningen templates.
>

So, basically, Clojure *is* the framework? :) 

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Colin Yates]

Clojure + developer's skill + existing libraries + custom code is the
framework.
On 3 May 2015 15:27, "Fluid Dynamics"  wrote:

>
>
> On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 2:12:02 AM UTC-4, Sven Richter wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Reading through all the discussion I don't get which features you are
>> actually missing. I love luminus and did a lot with it, however, for me it
>> was missing some standard stuff, that's why I put together closp, which is
>> just another leiningen template providing some more features out of the box.
>> I'd consider adding even more features if you would become more specific
>> in terms of features.
>>
>> For the rest I agree with what is mostly said here, the beauty of clojure
>> lies in the nature of small composable building blocks and the same goes
>> for frameworks, so, basically it's all there, one just has to put it
>> together. And to not have to put it together by hand time and time again
>> there are leiningen templates.
>>
>
> So, basically, Clojure *is* the framework? :)
>
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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Herwig Hochleitner]

2015-05-03 16:27 GMT+02:00 Fluid Dynamics :

>
> So, basically, Clojure *is* the framework? :)
>
> Exactly! As is any language that you choose to work in. That means that
buying into at least one framework is nessecary to get started with
programming anyway.
With clojure, the predominant attitude seems to be: If I can buy into one
framework, that gives me a skinnable, turing-complete language and focuses
on composition, why should I buy into further frameworks, that can only
distance me from my peers that use something else?

That said: I'd love to see a set of well-maintained, well-documented
project templates to emerge from a common brand, for the benefit of
beginners and 10h website creators.

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Plínio Balduino]

Mr Herwig

"That said: I'd love to see a set of well-maintained, well-documented
project templates to emerge from a common brand, for the benefit of
beginners and 10h website creators."

THIS is exactly what I was discussing right now with a friend.

I think you nailed it.

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Herwig Hochleitner 
wrote:

> 2015-05-03 16:27 GMT+02:00 Fluid Dynamics :
>
>>
>> So, basically, Clojure *is* the framework? :)
>>
>> Exactly! As is any language that you choose to work in. That means that
> buying into at least one framework is nessecary to get started with
> programming anyway.
> With clojure, the predominant attitude seems to be: If I can buy into one
> framework, that gives me a skinnable, turing-complete language and focuses
> on composition, why should I buy into further frameworks, that can only
> distance me from my peers that use something else?
>
> That said: I'd love to see a set of well-maintained, well-documented
> project templates to emerge from a common brand, for the benefit of
> beginners and 10h website creators.
>
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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Andrew Rosa]

Extending a little more on Herwig's previous idea, a good "Clojure 
framework" could be a collection of schemas, protocols and interfaces. A 
"ring for the whole stack".

Creating our stack will be a matter of composing our web pipeline with our 
desired libraries. Even templates could become unnecessary, despite being 
very helpful to lower the entry point for new developers. IMHO *that* is 
the power of data driven architectures that we like to sell, isn't?

[]'s
Andrew

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 11:51:36 AM UTC-3, Plinio Balduino wrote:
>
> Mr Herwig
>
> "That said: I'd love to see a set of well-maintained, well-documented 
> project templates to emerge from a common brand, for the benefit of 
> beginners and 10h website creators."
>
> THIS is exactly what I was discussing right now with a friend.
>
> I think you nailed it.
>
> On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Herwig Hochleitner  > wrote:
>
>> 2015-05-03 16:27 GMT+02:00 Fluid Dynamics > >:
>>
>>>
>>> So, basically, Clojure *is* the framework? :) 
>>>
>>> Exactly! As is any language that you choose to work in. That means that 
>> buying into at least one framework is nessecary to get started with 
>> programming anyway.
>> With clojure, the predominant attitude seems to be: If I can buy into one 
>> framework, that gives me a skinnable, turing-complete language and focuses 
>> on composition, why should I buy into further frameworks, that can only 
>> distance me from my peers that use something else?
>>
>> That said: I'd love to see a set of well-maintained, well-documented 
>> project templates to emerge from a common brand, for the benefit of 
>> beginners and 10h website creators.
>>
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>
>

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[larry google groups]

This can be read in a manner opposite to what you intended: 

> There's one factor missing from this discussion which is framework 
> community. I think there's immense value in the community factor which 
> emerges when a web framework gains a lot of mindshare. From what I've 
> read in this thread there will probably never be anything like RailsConf 
> for a Clojure web framework simply because shared knowledge can only go 
> so far with the library composition approach. 

A personal story: this week I was at a web agency that was discussing how 
to proceed with a new client. The web agency has several engineers who 
mostly work with PHP, and they love the Symfony framework. They had one 
engineer who wanted to start using Rails for their web projects. I was not 
part of their team, but I was invited to speak, so I said that Rails would 
offer them some benefits. 

One of the PHP engineers then asked me "Can you name any advantage that 
Rails has over PHP?" 

I said, "Ruby is more composable than PHP. Since 2005 PHP has been 
influenced by Java and it has developed a somewhat literal style. That 
makes it harder to integrate 3rd party code. Ruby allows a level of runtime 
reflextion and meta-programming that makes it easy to integrate 3rd party 
code. There is a great wealth of gems that allow you to implement all of 
the standard features that you might need. And it takes very little effort 
to integrate those 3rd party gems." 

And the PHP engineer replied: "Are you aware how huge the Symfony community 
is? Are you aware how many plugins there are? There is vast wealth of 
plugins for Symfony." 

And then I said something which he had apparently never realized, and it 
clearly had a big impact on him: "In Ruby, the gems exist at the level of 
the language. In PHP, the plugins exist at the level of the framework. You 
can not use a Symfony plugin with WordPress, nor can you use a WordPress 
plugin with CakePHP. In PHP, ever CMS has its own plugin system. In Ruby, 
there are few gems that are specific to Rails. Most gems can be used in a 
great variety of contexts, because composing code in Ruby is much easier 
than composing code in PHP." 

And that seemed to settle the debate: they would try Ruby. 

But I'll point out, if they had been open to hearing something a bit more 
radical, I could have continued and pointed out that Ruby has it limits, 
and the very fact that something like RailsConf exists suggests that Ruby 
has a limit. In a truly composable language, where all code can be used 
with any code, the community will exist at the level of the language, not 
at the level of any system written in that language.



On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 5:38:14 AM UTC-4, g vim wrote:
>
> On 03/05/2015 05:24, Sean Corfield wrote: 
> > On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Mark Engelberg   
> > > wrote: 
> > 
> > Clojure is great for creating new, disruptive web models, but what's 
> > the easiest path to creating something that can be done trivially 
> > with, say, Drupal or Django? 
> > 
> > 
> > The question tho' is why you'd want to use Clojure for something that is 
> > already trivially solved with free packaged software for widely used 
> > scripting languages where cheap, plentiful developers are falling over 
> > themselves to help... :) 
> > 
> > Clojure doesn't have to be the solution for every problem. It certainly 
> > doesn't need to be the solution for low-value problems... 
>
> Forgive me if that sounds a little elitist. What if I want to do what 
> Django can do but in Clojure? If Clojure is a better option there should 
> be something which can do more than Django. If my only choice is library 
> composition by definition it doesn't do what Django does well, ie. a 
> fully-structured setup out of the box with a predictable, best of breed 
> set of technologies. 
>
> There are many businesses, large and small, who will only go with a 
> well-established web framework with a vibrant community. Sadly, 
> Clojure's preference for protecting its niche means it will never be an 
> option for these opportunities, hence its poor showing in job listings. 
> Do we, as a community, want to be paid for what we do? 
>
> There's one factor missing from this discussion which is framework 
> community. I think there's immense value in the community factor which 
> emerges when a web framework gains a lot of mindshare. From what I've 
> read in this thread there will probably never be anything like RailsConf 
> for a Clojure web framework simply because shared knowledge can only go 
> so far with the library composition approach. 
>
> > Perfection is the enemy of the good (Gustave Flaubert). 
>
> "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts." (Aristotle) 
>
> gvim 
>

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Hildeberto Mendonça]

Hello Gvim,

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 11:37 AM, gvim  wrote:

> On 03/05/2015 05:24, Sean Corfield wrote:
>
>> On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Mark Engelberg > > wrote:
>>
>> Clojure is great for creating new, disruptive web models, but what's
>> the easiest path to creating something that can be done trivially
>> with, say, Drupal or Django?
>>
>> Clojure doesn't have to be the solution for every problem. It certainly
>> doesn't need to be the solution for low-value problems...
>>
>
> Forgive me if that sounds a little elitist. What if I want to do what
> Django can do but in Clojure? If Clojure is a better option there should be
> something which can do more than Django. If my only choice is library
> composition by definition it doesn't do what Django does well, ie. a
> fully-structured setup out of the box with a predictable, best of breed set
> of technologies.
>

I would recommend watching the video "Simple made easy" by Rich Hickey:
http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy . By watching this
video, I realized there is no sense writing frameworks in Clojure. Not
because the video says so, but because the approach of using libraries to
compose solutions makes a lot more sense. Django and Rails are examples of
easy technologies, while Clojure and its libraries are an example of
simple. You will also understand Sean when he said that Clojure "doesn't
need to be the solution for low-level problems".

Do you actually program in Clojure? Have you experienced web development in
Clojure? I'm asking that because my personal experience was actually good.
I'm happier writing Clojure web apps adding libraries on demand instead of
having a huge piece of software with a lot of things that I don't use at
all.

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[ANN] Fipp 0.6.0 release: Clojure 1.7 and experimental ClojureScript support

[Brandon Bloom]

Fipp is a better pretty printer for Clojure (and now/soon ClojureScript!)

https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp

Please give it a try and let me know how it goes.

Version 0.6.0 includes...
- Several nice performance improvements via Transducers
- A totally rewritten Edn printer with tagged literal support
- Experimental ClojureScript support

Known CLJS Issues
- No tagged literal support yet
- The cljs.jar repl does something funky to newlines when printing
- Lots of CLJS types with pr extensions are not yet specially handled
- A bunch more stuff, to be fixed soon!

Keep an eye out for related upgrades to the Pudget and Whidbey companion 
projects when I get some more free time.

Cheers,
Brandon


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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[larry google groups]

> The web development industry as reflected in job postings at 
> Indeed.co.uk is still dominated by the likes of Rails, Django, Laravel, 
> Zend, Symfony & Spring so I'm not sure how you've concluded that there's 
> been a 15-year trend towards composition. 

That is a good point, though I would also point out that, according to 
Indeed.com, the use of Clojure is also growing. To me, what's important is 
the growth of the Clojure community, rather than the growth of some 
sub-community focused on a particular niche. 

However, I acknowledge you may have a point about the failure of any of the 
Clojure frameworks to take off. It's possible this is another manifestation 
of the Bipolar Programmer problem: 

http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm

"Brilliance and failure are so often mixed together and our initial 
reaction is it shouldn't be.   But it happens and it happens a lot.  Why? 
...But brilliance is not enough.  You need application too, because the 
material is harder at university.   So pretty soon our man is getting B+, 
then Bs and then Cs for his assignments.   He experiences alternating 
feelings of failure cutting through his usual self assurance.  He can still 
stay up to 5.00AM and hand in his assignment before the 9.00AM deadline, 
but what he hands in is not so great.

...So BBMs love Lisp.  And the stunning originality of Lisp is reflective 
of the creativity of the BBM; so we have a long list of ideas that 
originated with Lispers - garbage collection, list handling, personal 
computing, windowing and areas in which Lisp people were amongst the 
earliest pioneers.  So we would think, off the cuff, that Lisp should be 
well established, the premiere programming language because hey - its great 
and we were the first guys to do this stuff.

But it isn't and the reasons why not are not in the language, but in the 
community itself, which contains not just the strengths but also the 
weaknesses of the BBM.

One of these is the inability to finish things off properly.  The phrase 
'throw-away design' is absolutely made for the BBM and it comes from the 
Lisp community.   Lisp allows you to just chuck things off so easily, and 
it is easy to take this for granted.  I saw this 10 years ago when looking 
for a GUI to my Lisp (Garnet had just gone West then).  No problem, there 
were 9 different offerings.  The trouble was that none of the 9 were 
properly documented and none were bug free. Basically each person had 
implemented his own solution and it worked for him so that was fine.   This 
is a BBM attitude; it works for me and I understand it.   It is also the 
product of not needing or wanting anybody else's help to do something."





On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 9:51:15 AM UTC-4, g vim wrote:
>
> On 03/05/2015 14:39, larry google groups wrote: 
> > The industry has been moving against frameworks for 15 years now. The 
> > peak of the monolithic framework craze was Struts, back in 2000. After 
> > that, people started craving something less bloated. That's why the 
> > whole industry was so excited when Rails emerged in 2004. Bruce Eckel 
> > summed up the sudden change of mood in his essay "The departure of the 
> > hyper-enthusiasts": 
> > 
> > http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=141312 
> > 
> > But after awhile, people began to feel that even Rails was bloated, 
> > which lead to the emergence of micro-frameworks like Sinatra. 
> > 
> > And then, continuing with the trend, we've seen the emergence of 
> > eco-systems, such as Clojure, that allow the trend to go further: 
> > Clojure supports such high levels composition that frameworks are no 
> > longer needed. And this is the direction the industry has been moving 
> > for the last 15 years. Clojure is simply out in front. Most languages 
> > don't allow this level of composition. 
> > 
>
> The web development industry as reflected in job postings at 
> Indeed.co.uk is still dominated by the likes of Rails, Django, Laravel, 
> Zend, Symfony & Spring so I'm not sure how you've concluded that there's 
> been a 15-year trend towards composition. Ruby and Python have had 
> lightweight composable alternatives for many years but Rails and Django 
> still dominate. I'm not against the composition at all. I just think we 
> need more structured alternatives that we can at least brand and market 
> as well as teach to Clojure beginners. 
>
> gvim 
>

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Leon Grapenthin]

No, it isn't. And never has this author proven that programmers with 
bipolar personality are programming more LISP then other languages. 

Many larger libraries in the Clojure community are well documented and 
"finished-off properly".

Web frameworks have been tried and not been picked up. Users have chosen 
the modular compose it yourself approach. Framework authors have simply 
stopped maintaining what nobody wanted anyway or split them up into smaller 
pieces. 


On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 8:25:22 PM UTC+2, larry google groups wrote:
>
>
> > The web development industry as reflected in job postings at 
> > Indeed.co.uk is still dominated by the likes of Rails, Django, Laravel, 
> > Zend, Symfony & Spring so I'm not sure how you've concluded that there's 
> > been a 15-year trend towards composition. 
>
> That is a good point, though I would also point out that, according to 
> Indeed.com, the use of Clojure is also growing. To me, what's important is 
> the growth of the Clojure community, rather than the growth of some 
> sub-community focused on a particular niche. 
>
> However, I acknowledge you may have a point about the failure of any of 
> the Clojure frameworks to take off. It's possible this is another 
> manifestation of the Bipolar Programmer problem: 
>
> http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
>
> "Brilliance and failure are so often mixed together and our initial 
> reaction is it shouldn't be.   But it happens and it happens a lot.  Why? 
> ...But brilliance is not enough.  You need application too, because the 
> material is harder at university.   So pretty soon our man is getting B+, 
> then Bs and then Cs for his assignments.   He experiences alternating 
> feelings of failure cutting through his usual self assurance.  He can still 
> stay up to 5.00AM and hand in his assignment before the 9.00AM deadline, 
> but what he hands in is not so great.
>
> ...So BBMs love Lisp.  And the stunning originality of Lisp is reflective 
> of the creativity of the BBM; so we have a long list of ideas that 
> originated with Lispers - garbage collection, list handling, personal 
> computing, windowing and areas in which Lisp people were amongst the 
> earliest pioneers.  So we would think, off the cuff, that Lisp should be 
> well established, the premiere programming language because hey - its great 
> and we were the first guys to do this stuff.
>
> But it isn't and the reasons why not are not in the language, but in the 
> community itself, which contains not just the strengths but also the 
> weaknesses of the BBM.
>
> One of these is the inability to finish things off properly.  The phrase 
> 'throw-away design' is absolutely made for the BBM and it comes from the 
> Lisp community.   Lisp allows you to just chuck things off so easily, and 
> it is easy to take this for granted.  I saw this 10 years ago when looking 
> for a GUI to my Lisp (Garnet had just gone West then).  No problem, there 
> were 9 different offerings.  The trouble was that none of the 9 were 
> properly documented and none were bug free. Basically each person had 
> implemented his own solution and it worked for him so that was fine.   This 
> is a BBM attitude; it works for me and I understand it.   It is also the 
> product of not needing or wanting anybody else's help to do something."
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 9:51:15 AM UTC-4, g vim wrote:
>>
>> On 03/05/2015 14:39, larry google groups wrote: 
>> > The industry has been moving against frameworks for 15 years now. The 
>> > peak of the monolithic framework craze was Struts, back in 2000. After 
>> > that, people started craving something less bloated. That's why the 
>> > whole industry was so excited when Rails emerged in 2004. Bruce Eckel 
>> > summed up the sudden change of mood in his essay "The departure of the 
>> > hyper-enthusiasts": 
>> > 
>> > http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=141312 
>> > 
>> > But after awhile, people began to feel that even Rails was bloated, 
>> > which lead to the emergence of micro-frameworks like Sinatra. 
>> > 
>> > And then, continuing with the trend, we've seen the emergence of 
>> > eco-systems, such as Clojure, that allow the trend to go further: 
>> > Clojure supports such high levels composition that frameworks are no 
>> > longer needed. And this is the direction the industry has been moving 
>> > for the last 15 years. Clojure is simply out in front. Most languages 
>> > don't allow this level of composition. 
>> > 
>>
>> The web development industry as reflected in job postings at 
>> Indeed.co.uk is still dominated by the likes of Rails, Django, Laravel, 
>> Zend, Symfony & Spring so I'm not sure how you've concluded that there's 
>> been a 15-year trend towards composition. Ruby and Python have had 
>> lightweight composable alternatives for many years but Rails and Django 
>> still dominate. I'm not against the composition at all. I just think we 
>> need more structured alternatives that

Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Christopher Small]

Perhaps we need to see an example of a minimalistic/modular approach that 
_has_ won out.

Node's express has > 5k commits, 177 contribs, >18k stars. Possibly the 
most popular node framework out there. Tagline?

> Fast, unopinionated, minimalist web framework for node.



On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 11:52:22 AM UTC-7, Leon Grapenthin wrote:
>
> No, it isn't. And never has this author proven that programmers with 
> bipolar personality are programming more LISP then other languages. 
>
> Many larger libraries in the Clojure community are well documented and 
> "finished-off properly".
>
> Web frameworks have been tried and not been picked up. Users have chosen 
> the modular compose it yourself approach. Framework authors have simply 
> stopped maintaining what nobody wanted anyway or split them up into smaller 
> pieces. 
>
>
> On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 8:25:22 PM UTC+2, larry google groups wrote:
>>
>>
>> > The web development industry as reflected in job postings at 
>> > Indeed.co.uk is still dominated by the likes of Rails, Django, 
>> Laravel, 
>> > Zend, Symfony & Spring so I'm not sure how you've concluded that 
>> there's 
>> > been a 15-year trend towards composition. 
>>
>> That is a good point, though I would also point out that, according to 
>> Indeed.com, the use of Clojure is also growing. To me, what's important is 
>> the growth of the Clojure community, rather than the growth of some 
>> sub-community focused on a particular niche. 
>>
>> However, I acknowledge you may have a point about the failure of any of 
>> the Clojure frameworks to take off. It's possible this is another 
>> manifestation of the Bipolar Programmer problem: 
>>
>> http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
>>
>> "Brilliance and failure are so often mixed together and our initial 
>> reaction is it shouldn't be.   But it happens and it happens a lot.  Why? 
>> ...But brilliance is not enough.  You need application too, because the 
>> material is harder at university.   So pretty soon our man is getting B+, 
>> then Bs and then Cs for his assignments.   He experiences alternating 
>> feelings of failure cutting through his usual self assurance.  He can still 
>> stay up to 5.00AM and hand in his assignment before the 9.00AM deadline, 
>> but what he hands in is not so great.
>>
>> ...So BBMs love Lisp.  And the stunning originality of Lisp is reflective 
>> of the creativity of the BBM; so we have a long list of ideas that 
>> originated with Lispers - garbage collection, list handling, personal 
>> computing, windowing and areas in which Lisp people were amongst the 
>> earliest pioneers.  So we would think, off the cuff, that Lisp should be 
>> well established, the premiere programming language because hey - its great 
>> and we were the first guys to do this stuff.
>>
>> But it isn't and the reasons why not are not in the language, but in the 
>> community itself, which contains not just the strengths but also the 
>> weaknesses of the BBM.
>>
>> One of these is the inability to finish things off properly.  The phrase 
>> 'throw-away design' is absolutely made for the BBM and it comes from the 
>> Lisp community.   Lisp allows you to just chuck things off so easily, and 
>> it is easy to take this for granted.  I saw this 10 years ago when looking 
>> for a GUI to my Lisp (Garnet had just gone West then).  No problem, there 
>> were 9 different offerings.  The trouble was that none of the 9 were 
>> properly documented and none were bug free. Basically each person had 
>> implemented his own solution and it worked for him so that was fine.   This 
>> is a BBM attitude; it works for me and I understand it.   It is also the 
>> product of not needing or wanting anybody else's help to do something."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 9:51:15 AM UTC-4, g vim wrote:
>>>
>>> On 03/05/2015 14:39, larry google groups wrote: 
>>> > The industry has been moving against frameworks for 15 years now. The 
>>> > peak of the monolithic framework craze was Struts, back in 2000. After 
>>> > that, people started craving something less bloated. That's why the 
>>> > whole industry was so excited when Rails emerged in 2004. Bruce Eckel 
>>> > summed up the sudden change of mood in his essay "The departure of the 
>>> > hyper-enthusiasts": 
>>> > 
>>> > http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=141312 
>>> > 
>>> > But after awhile, people began to feel that even Rails was bloated, 
>>> > which lead to the emergence of micro-frameworks like Sinatra. 
>>> > 
>>> > And then, continuing with the trend, we've seen the emergence of 
>>> > eco-systems, such as Clojure, that allow the trend to go further: 
>>> > Clojure supports such high levels composition that frameworks are no 
>>> > longer needed. And this is the direction the industry has been moving 
>>> > for the last 15 years. Clojure is simply out in front. Most languages 
>>> > don't allow this level of composition. 
>>> > 
>>>
>>> The web development indust

Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Angel Java Lopez]

I could add something about NodeJS arena:

There are web frameworks, but the most popular (AFAIK) way is the use of:

- Express for MVC routing and middleware management (before middle ware
management was Connect task), and template engine coordination
- NPM ecosystem for any library or middleware needed

I guess that "big web frameworks" are more suitable for simple application
without a lot of changing requirements. Every time I got an application
with non-trivial logic, and agile embracing the change, I preferred the
"simple-way" insteof the "easy-way".

And "small web frameworks" are in charge of:
- middleware chaining
- routing a la MVC
- coordinate template rendering

In contrast, PayPal developed kraken http://krakenjs.com/ adding some
conventions and libraries

Angel "Java" Lopez
@ajlopez


On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Christopher Small 
wrote:

>
> Perhaps we need to see an example of a minimalistic/modular approach that
> _has_ won out.
>
> Node's express has > 5k commits, 177 contribs, >18k stars. Possibly the
> most popular node framework out there. Tagline?
>
> > Fast, unopinionated, minimalist web framework for node.
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 11:52:22 AM UTC-7, Leon Grapenthin wrote:
>>
>> No, it isn't. And never has this author proven that programmers with
>> bipolar personality are programming more LISP then other languages.
>>
>> Many larger libraries in the Clojure community are well documented and
>> "finished-off properly".
>>
>> Web frameworks have been tried and not been picked up. Users have chosen
>> the modular compose it yourself approach. Framework authors have simply
>> stopped maintaining what nobody wanted anyway or split them up into smaller
>> pieces.
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 8:25:22 PM UTC+2, larry google groups wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> > The web development industry as reflected in job postings at
>>> > Indeed.co.uk is still dominated by the likes of Rails, Django,
>>> Laravel,
>>> > Zend, Symfony & Spring so I'm not sure how you've concluded that
>>> there's
>>> > been a 15-year trend towards composition.
>>>
>>> That is a good point, though I would also point out that, according to
>>> Indeed.com, the use of Clojure is also growing. To me, what's important is
>>> the growth of the Clojure community, rather than the growth of some
>>> sub-community focused on a particular niche.
>>>
>>> However, I acknowledge you may have a point about the failure of any of
>>> the Clojure frameworks to take off. It's possible this is another
>>> manifestation of the Bipolar Programmer problem:
>>>
>>> http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
>>>
>>> "Brilliance and failure are so often mixed together and our initial
>>> reaction is it shouldn't be.   But it happens and it happens a lot.  Why?
>>> ...But brilliance is not enough.  You need application too, because the
>>> material is harder at university.   So pretty soon our man is getting B+,
>>> then Bs and then Cs for his assignments.   He experiences alternating
>>> feelings of failure cutting through his usual self assurance.  He can still
>>> stay up to 5.00AM and hand in his assignment before the 9.00AM deadline,
>>> but what he hands in is not so great.
>>>
>>> ...So BBMs love Lisp.  And the stunning originality of Lisp is
>>> reflective of the creativity of the BBM; so we have a long list of ideas
>>> that originated with Lispers - garbage collection, list handling, personal
>>> computing, windowing and areas in which Lisp people were amongst the
>>> earliest pioneers.  So we would think, off the cuff, that Lisp should be
>>> well established, the premiere programming language because hey - its great
>>> and we were the first guys to do this stuff.
>>>
>>> But it isn't and the reasons why not are not in the language, but in the
>>> community itself, which contains not just the strengths but also the
>>> weaknesses of the BBM.
>>>
>>> One of these is the inability to finish things off properly.  The phrase
>>> 'throw-away design' is absolutely made for the BBM and it comes from the
>>> Lisp community.   Lisp allows you to just chuck things off so easily, and
>>> it is easy to take this for granted.  I saw this 10 years ago when looking
>>> for a GUI to my Lisp (Garnet had just gone West then).  No problem, there
>>> were 9 different offerings.  The trouble was that none of the 9 were
>>> properly documented and none were bug free. Basically each person had
>>> implemented his own solution and it worked for him so that was fine.   This
>>> is a BBM attitude; it works for me and I understand it.   It is also the
>>> product of not needing or wanting anybody else's help to do something."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 9:51:15 AM UTC-4, g vim wrote:

 On 03/05/2015 14:39, larry google groups wrote:
 > The industry has been moving against frameworks for 15 years now. The
 > peak of the monolithic framework craze was Struts, back in 2000.
 After
 > that, people started 

Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Luc Préfontaine]

Here in Morocco, the dominant web technology is... PHP.  Tadaaa !

The're not even considering Raills or anything more 'advanced' for that matter.

It's really an evolution ladder. People got on the 'framework' 'one fit for all 
band after trying
things like PHP, JSP, ... and now realizing that it does not solve the issues 
they just leave.
It will certainly happened with PHP and Rails.

These solutions are geared toward some specific problem scopes. As soon as the 
business
needs outrun what they can easily solve you are short of something else.

The industry has been searching for a silver bullet solution for decades.
In the early 80s, late 70s, CASE tools were suppose to be that bullet, (basic 
stuff in today's 
world, git, ant, ).

Open systems then picked up, blabla,  None of that fully delivered their 
promises. Ever.
They helped climb the ladder however. In small steps...

And now we have these frameworks that  supposedly can ease the pain in any 
circumstances. They do fill the role up to a certain glass  ceiling, the 
unforeseen business needs 
that make them blow in pieces because they can't be easily  stretched, twisted, 
bended, ...

Each of these initiatives were motivated by software creation automating and
supposedly shrinking the costs while trying to downplay the need for an 
essential ingredient...
Us. Wetware.

I think it's a mirage.

Maybe the solution has been there for decades under our eyes. Human beings. 
Capable of assembling solutions grater than the sum of their parts. Capable of 
bending the 
software as needed to do new stuff instead of having to fully rewrite stuff 
because shoes
are becoming to tight. In one word adapt.

This assumes that you have components to build from and people that can compose 
them
as needed.
Not some kind of frozen approach in time to software development were roles are 
pre-assigned
and any change outside of this limited scope becomes a challenge by itself.

The 'structure' needed here has nothing to do with walls and concrete. We need 
brain power
to tear down/recompose things and stop thinking that processes, normalization, 
herd tagging,
etc can lead us to work more efficiently. Processes, conventions, ... may help 
but at a low scale. 

Not pushed by at the scale of the whole software industry like these days 
Variety is the key.

Luc P.

> On 03/05/2015 14:39, larry google groups wrote:
> > The industry has been moving against frameworks for 15 years now. The
> > peak of the monolithic framework craze was Struts, back in 2000. After
> > that, people started craving something less bloated. That's why the
> > whole industry was so excited when Rails emerged in 2004. Bruce Eckel
> > summed up the sudden change of mood in his essay "The departure of the
> > hyper-enthusiasts":
> >
> > http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=141312
> >
> > But after awhile, people began to feel that even Rails was bloated,
> > which lead to the emergence of micro-frameworks like Sinatra.
> >
> > And then, continuing with the trend, we've seen the emergence of
> > eco-systems, such as Clojure, that allow the trend to go further:
> > Clojure supports such high levels composition that frameworks are no
> > longer needed. And this is the direction the industry has been moving
> > for the last 15 years. Clojure is simply out in front. Most languages
> > don't allow this level of composition.
> >
> 
> The web development industry as reflected in job postings at 
> Indeed.co.uk is still dominated by the likes of Rails, Django, Laravel, 
> Zend, Symfony & Spring so I'm not sure how you've concluded that there's 
> been a 15-year trend towards composition. Ruby and Python have had 
> lightweight composable alternatives for many years but Rails and Django 
> still dominate. I'm not against the composition at all. I just think we 
> need more structured alternatives that we can at least brand and market 
> as well as teach to Clojure beginners.
> 
> gvim
> 
> -- 
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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Colin Fleming]

A shopping cart. All the available Java ones require a J2EE stack.

On 3 May 2015 at 21:49, Sven Richter  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Am Sonntag, 3. Mai 2015 11:38:14 UTC+2 schrieb g vim:
>>
>> On 03/05/2015 05:24, Sean Corfield wrote:
>> > On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Mark Engelberg > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > Clojure is great for creating new, disruptive web models, but
>> what's
>> > the easiest path to creating something that can be done trivially
>> > with, say, Drupal or Django?
>> >
>> >
>> > The question tho' is why you'd want to use Clojure for something that
>> is
>> > already trivially solved with free packaged software for widely used
>> > scripting languages where cheap, plentiful developers are falling over
>> > themselves to help... :)
>> >
>> > Clojure doesn't have to be the solution for every problem. It certainly
>> > doesn't need to be the solution for low-value problems...
>>
>> Forgive me if that sounds a little elitist. What if I want to do what
>> Django can do but in Clojure? If Clojure is a better option there should
>> be something which can do more than Django. If my only choice is library
>> composition by definition it doesn't do what Django does well, ie. a
>> fully-structured setup out of the box with a predictable, best of breed
>> set of technologies.
>>
>> There are many businesses, large and small, who will only go with a
>> well-established web framework with a vibrant community. Sadly,
>> Clojure's preference for protecting its niche means it will never be an
>> option for these opportunities, hence its poor showing in job listings.
>> Do we, as a community, want to be paid for what we do?
>>
>
> Again I am missing some exact requests on what can be done in django that
> cannot be done in clojure? This by no means an offense, I am just curious
> about your experiences.
>
> Best Regards,
> Sven
>
> --
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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[gvim]

On 03/05/2015 19:01, Hildeberto Mendonça wrote:

I would recommend watching the video "Simple made easy" by Rich Hickey:
http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy . By watching this
video, I realized there is no sense writing frameworks in Clojure. Not
because the video says so, but because the approach of using libraries
to compose solutions makes a lot more sense. Django and Rails are
examples of easy technologies, while Clojure and its libraries are an
example of simple. You will also understand Sean when he said that
Clojure "doesn't need to be the solution for low-level problems".

Do you actually program in Clojure? Have you experienced web development
in Clojure? I'm asking that because my personal experience was actually
good. I'm happier writing Clojure web apps adding libraries on demand
instead of having a huge piece of software with a lot of things that I
don't use at all.


Rich Hickey's videos got me into Clojure so, yes, I've watched all of 
them several times.


Yes, I do program in Clojure. Exclusively at the moment as I'm currently 
free to work on my own startup project. I'm using Luminus and enjoy it 
so I didn't start this thread out of dissatisfaction with Luminus itself 
but more from a sense of frustration at seeing so little input coming 
from the community compared with other languages.


gvim

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[James Reeves]

On 3 May 2015 at 23:36, gvim  wrote:

> Yes, I do program in Clojure. Exclusively at the moment as I'm currently
> free to work on my own startup project. I'm using Luminus and enjoy it so I
> didn't start this thread out of dissatisfaction with Luminus itself but
> more from a sense of frustration at seeing so little input coming from the
> community compared with other languages.


By what measurement?

- James

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[gvim]

On 03/05/2015 23:55, James Reeves wrote:

On 3 May 2015 at 23:36, gvim mailto:gvi...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Yes, I do program in Clojure. Exclusively at the moment as I'm
currently free to work on my own startup project. I'm using Luminus
and enjoy it so I didn't start this thread out of dissatisfaction
with Luminus itself but more from a sense of frustration at seeing
so little input coming from the community compared with other languages.


By what measurement?

- James


I posted some figures at the beginning of this thread where I was 
comparing frameworks, not components. A framework is more than the sum 
of it's components so I don't think comparing Ring and Compojure to 
Phoenix or Play is relevant. Clojure frameworks aren't the only ones 
built from components.


gvim



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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Leon Grapenthin]

If it is more than the sum of its components, what does it add? 

What are you missing that couldn't be done in a component or template, that 
other languages have because they have frameworks?

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 1:02:56 AM UTC+2, g vim wrote:
>
> On 03/05/2015 23:55, James Reeves wrote: 
> > On 3 May 2015 at 23:36, gvim  
> > > wrote: 
> > 
> > Yes, I do program in Clojure. Exclusively at the moment as I'm 
> > currently free to work on my own startup project. I'm using Luminus 
> > and enjoy it so I didn't start this thread out of dissatisfaction 
> > with Luminus itself but more from a sense of frustration at seeing 
> > so little input coming from the community compared with other 
> languages. 
> > 
> > 
> > By what measurement? 
> > 
> > - James 
>
> I posted some figures at the beginning of this thread where I was 
> comparing frameworks, not components. A framework is more than the sum 
> of it's components so I don't think comparing Ring and Compojure to 
> Phoenix or Play is relevant. Clojure frameworks aren't the only ones 
> built from components. 
>
> gvim 
>
>
>
>

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[James Reeves]

On 4 May 2015 at 00:02, gvim  wrote:
>
> I posted some figures at the beginning of this thread where I was
> comparing frameworks, not components. A framework is more than the sum of
> it's components so I don't think comparing Ring and Compojure to Phoenix or
> Play is relevant. Clojure frameworks aren't the only ones built from
> components.


So you're using measurements that are clearly biased toward monolithic
codebases, and you've discovered that Clojure, a language that has few
monolithic codebases, is underrepresented?

- James

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Re: Clojure community organisation

[Tom Marble]

@deepbluelambda:

Thank you for bringing this up! I am, like you, a huge fan of Clojure
and Free/Libre Open Source Software (and building community).

In the interest of full disclosure I on the Software Freedom
Conservancy [0] Evaluation Committee and I am a member of Software in
the Public Interest [1] (and a contributor to Debian -- one of the big
SPI projects). I would, therefore, need to recuse myself from voting
on any Clojure community organization.

The key rational you give on the wiki page [2] in asking for
support from a fiscal sponsorship organization is (in summary):

  A. GSoC (or a program like it) and student conference travel
  B. Infrastructure (like Clojars)
  C. User group/event support
  D. Provide beginner materials and training
  E. A place to donate to

Let me comment on each of these...


A. GSoC

First of all thank you for being being a GSoC mentor!
As long as Google continues GSoC (and the Clojure community
can provide motivated mentors and students) there is reduced
pressure for additional fiscal sponsorship. Often times mentoring
organizations will use their $500 portion [3] to help subsidize
student travel. I would guess that if we asked conference
organizers to support approved GSoC student travel they may
be able to help bridge any gaps.

I also want to make everyone aware of Outreachy -- a related internship
program intended to increase diversity in FLOSS [4]. Outreachy
is symbiotic with GSoC during the "summer" sessions: Outreachy
applicants that qualify for GSoC are encouraged to do so.
Unlike GSoC Outreachy applicants do *not* need to be students and
Outreachy offers a "winter" session. Outreachy is now a member
of SFC (and thus can take donations).


B. Infrastructure (like Clojars)

I think everyone will agree with me that we owe a lot of gratitude
to @atosborne @technomancy @tcrawley and @xeqixeqi for making
Clojars awesome (and an essential part of our Clojure workflow).

I notice that some of the costs are (or at least were) covered
by sponsors such as Heroku [5]. I am not clear on how additional
funding could or would be used for Clojars: I think we'd need hear
opinions on that from the Clojars maintainers directly.
(That being said I'd definitely donate!)

Both @htmfilho and @albinst brainstormed about additional
infrastructure ideas (which are cool and I bet there many more)!  One
tool I use all the time is Grimoire [6] and I wonder if @arrdem has
what he needs for this (or could do more with more support)?

I'm sort of torn about this... on the one hand I love the idea
of supporting cool tools, but on the other hand I'm worried
about how funds would be managed/distributed to toolmakers.
I think many of the cool tools we already have are works
of pure passion.


C. User group/event support

Typically fiscal sponsorship organizations help projects
run their own conferences. I can't even imagine trying to outdo
the amazing conferences put on by @puredanger @lynngrogan
and Cognitect. What's more I have to recognize conferences like
Clojure Conj, Clojure/West and Strangeloop for offering
opportunity grants [7] and diversity scholarships [8].

So if we don't run the conferences and the conferences already support
diversity and we might have at least a partial solution for students
(see above) then there may not be very much additional sponsorship
needed???

It's important to point out that our really cool ClojureBridge
events [9] benefit already from the fiscal sponsorship of
BridgeFoundry [10]. (advertisement: @ClojureBridgeMN [11] is
hosting three more workshops this year in the Twin Cities...
ask me how you can sponsor ClojureBridge to be even more awesome!)

As for user groups my guess is that local groups can attract local
sponsors for any other events. I'm not sure there's enough events in
this category (not covered by conferences and ClojureBridge) to
justify having a fiscal sponsorship organization.


D. Provide beginner materials and training

Providing fiscal sponsorship for beginner materials is tricky
in the same way funding B. Infrastructure is.

And I'll point out that there already are some community
resources for beginner materials (including ClojureBridge [12]).
Don't get me wrong.. I'm all in favor of more and better
beginner materials! (Well, maybe is fewer/concise materials
are "more", but that's another story...)

My guess is that training is tricky for a different reason:
training involves more money, more engineer time (vs. supporting
infrastructure) and already has competitive commercial offerings.
I'll try to find out how SFC handles this sort of thing.


E. A place to donate to

Any place that accepts donations (esp. in the non-profit sense)
must make explicitly clear how the donations will be used.
Therefore the to the question "what is the mission" (i.e.
the topics above) is a prerequisite for accepting donations.


In terms of organization you offer the options
  i) for-profit
  ii) 501(c)3 Non-profit
  iii) 501(c)6 Trade association
  iv)

Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[James Reeves]

On 4 May 2015 at 00:51, Jason Whitlark  wrote:
>
> While I agree that g vim's metrics aren't terribly meaningful, the
> conclusion he's arriving at is an important one.  I've heavily used Clojure
> in production for years, and there have been a number of times where having
> to hand assemble everything cost lots of support from other engineers.
> Luminus is an improvement, but doesn't always generate correct code for
> specific sets of options, and is tricky to extend.
>

I don't disagree. Improving code generation was my motivation for writing
lein-generate, and my partial motivation for cljfmt.

- James

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Need JIRA permissions to edit my ticket.

[Jason Whitlark]

I've got a CA on file since the early days, but *ahem* hadn't made any 
contributions.  I don't have the jira-developers permission which seems to 
be needed to change fields on my ticket/patch.

http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1673

Thanks,

~Jason (jwhitlark)

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Jason Whitlark]

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 4:18:26 PM UTC-7, James Reeves wrote:
>
> On 4 May 2015 at 00:02, gvim > wrote:
>>
>> I posted some figures at the beginning of this thread where I was 
>> comparing frameworks, not components. A framework is more than the sum of 
>> it's components so I don't think comparing Ring and Compojure to Phoenix or 
>> Play is relevant. Clojure frameworks aren't the only ones built from 
>> components.
>
>
> So you're using measurements that are clearly biased toward monolithic 
> codebases, and you've discovered that Clojure, a language that has few 
> monolithic codebases, is underrepresented?
>
> - James
>

While I agree that g vim's metrics aren't terribly meaningful, the 
conclusion he's arriving at is an important one.  I've heavily used Clojure 
in production for years, and there have been a number of times where having 
to hand assemble everything cost lots of support from other engineers. 
 Luminus is an improvement, but doesn't always generate correct code for 
specific sets of options, and is tricky to extend.

What Andrew said above: 

Extending a little more on Herwig's previous idea, a good "Clojure 
framework" could be a collection of schemas, protocols and interfaces. A 
"ring for the whole stack".


hit the nail on the head.  

The problem with not being able to solve low value problems with Clojure is 
that it forces people to split their attention between Clojure web 
development and Rails/Django/whatever development.  Like it or not, lots of 
decisions get made on "adequate across a wide range of problems", with 
languages like Python or Ruby winning out.  

Polyglot programming is a necessity, but resorting to it unnecessarily is a 
trade off many people won't make.

~Jason

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Re: Need JIRA permissions to edit my ticket.

[Andy Fingerhut]

Permissions bumped up on your JIRA account named 'jwhitlark'.

Andy

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 3:17 PM, Jason Whitlark  wrote:

> I've got a CA on file since the early days, but *ahem* hadn't made any
> contributions.  I don't have the jira-developers permission which seems to
> be needed to change fields on my ticket/patch.
>
> http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1673
>
> Thanks,
>
> ~Jason (jwhitlark)
>
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Re: Clojure community organisation

[myriam abramson]

I did ask Peter Norvig to show support for Clojure with simple programs
like he did with his Python spellchecker. He could even use Clojure for a
new edition of AIMA. But I am not sure he is going to do that.

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 7:29 PM, Tom Marble  wrote:

> @deepbluelambda:
>
> Thank you for bringing this up! I am, like you, a huge fan of Clojure
> and Free/Libre Open Source Software (and building community).
>
> In the interest of full disclosure I on the Software Freedom
> Conservancy [0] Evaluation Committee and I am a member of Software in
> the Public Interest [1] (and a contributor to Debian -- one of the big
> SPI projects). I would, therefore, need to recuse myself from voting
> on any Clojure community organization.
>
> The key rational you give on the wiki page [2] in asking for
> support from a fiscal sponsorship organization is (in summary):
>
>   A. GSoC (or a program like it) and student conference travel
>   B. Infrastructure (like Clojars)
>   C. User group/event support
>   D. Provide beginner materials and training
>   E. A place to donate to
>
> Let me comment on each of these...
>
>
> A. GSoC
>
> First of all thank you for being being a GSoC mentor!
> As long as Google continues GSoC (and the Clojure community
> can provide motivated mentors and students) there is reduced
> pressure for additional fiscal sponsorship. Often times mentoring
> organizations will use their $500 portion [3] to help subsidize
> student travel. I would guess that if we asked conference
> organizers to support approved GSoC student travel they may
> be able to help bridge any gaps.
>
> I also want to make everyone aware of Outreachy -- a related internship
> program intended to increase diversity in FLOSS [4]. Outreachy
> is symbiotic with GSoC during the "summer" sessions: Outreachy
> applicants that qualify for GSoC are encouraged to do so.
> Unlike GSoC Outreachy applicants do *not* need to be students and
> Outreachy offers a "winter" session. Outreachy is now a member
> of SFC (and thus can take donations).
>
>
> B. Infrastructure (like Clojars)
>
> I think everyone will agree with me that we owe a lot of gratitude
> to @atosborne @technomancy @tcrawley and @xeqixeqi for making
> Clojars awesome (and an essential part of our Clojure workflow).
>
> I notice that some of the costs are (or at least were) covered
> by sponsors such as Heroku [5]. I am not clear on how additional
> funding could or would be used for Clojars: I think we'd need hear
> opinions on that from the Clojars maintainers directly.
> (That being said I'd definitely donate!)
>
> Both @htmfilho and @albinst brainstormed about additional
> infrastructure ideas (which are cool and I bet there many more)!  One
> tool I use all the time is Grimoire [6] and I wonder if @arrdem has
> what he needs for this (or could do more with more support)?
>
> I'm sort of torn about this... on the one hand I love the idea
> of supporting cool tools, but on the other hand I'm worried
> about how funds would be managed/distributed to toolmakers.
> I think many of the cool tools we already have are works
> of pure passion.
>
>
> C. User group/event support
>
> Typically fiscal sponsorship organizations help projects
> run their own conferences. I can't even imagine trying to outdo
> the amazing conferences put on by @puredanger @lynngrogan
> and Cognitect. What's more I have to recognize conferences like
> Clojure Conj, Clojure/West and Strangeloop for offering
> opportunity grants [7] and diversity scholarships [8].
>
> So if we don't run the conferences and the conferences already support
> diversity and we might have at least a partial solution for students
> (see above) then there may not be very much additional sponsorship
> needed???
>
> It's important to point out that our really cool ClojureBridge
> events [9] benefit already from the fiscal sponsorship of
> BridgeFoundry [10]. (advertisement: @ClojureBridgeMN [11] is
> hosting three more workshops this year in the Twin Cities...
> ask me how you can sponsor ClojureBridge to be even more awesome!)
>
> As for user groups my guess is that local groups can attract local
> sponsors for any other events. I'm not sure there's enough events in
> this category (not covered by conferences and ClojureBridge) to
> justify having a fiscal sponsorship organization.
>
>
> D. Provide beginner materials and training
>
> Providing fiscal sponsorship for beginner materials is tricky
> in the same way funding B. Infrastructure is.
>
> And I'll point out that there already are some community
> resources for beginner materials (including ClojureBridge [12]).
> Don't get me wrong.. I'm all in favor of more and better
> beginner materials! (Well, maybe is fewer/concise materials
> are "more", but that's another story...)
>
> My guess is that training is tricky for a different reason:
> training involves more money, more engineer time (vs. supporting
> infrastructure) and already has competitive commercial offerings.
> I'

Re: Clojure community organisation

[Alex Miller]

Re gsoc, last year Cognitect was a receiving organization for the funds and 
distributed them to students for travel to Clojure conferences. This incurs 
some cost on Cognitect for the accounting effort but overall seemed worth it. 
We also offer free tickets to all gsoc students for any Clojure conf we run. We 
are happy to keep doing this but would be happier to be more out of the loop on 
money issues if there was some org that could act in this capacity.

Re the Cognitect position on this stuff, I forwarded it to the appropriate 
people - I don't yet have anything to share.

Alex

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Brian Marick]

Sven Richter wrote:

For the rest I agree with what is mostly said here, the beauty of
clojure lies in the nature of small composable building blocks and the
same goes for frameworks, so, basically it's all there, one just has to
put it together.


If composable building blocks are superior to frameworks (which I'm 
inclined to believe), there should be impressive examples to point 
people at. What are those?


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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Ilya Ivanov]

>
> I recently did some research into web frameworks on Github. Here's what I 
> found
>

I've noticed that you didn't include pedestal 
(https://github.com/pedestal/pedestal). I don't have personal experience 
with it, but I think it is aimed at providing framework-like functionality 
with a Clojure feel.

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Re: Clojure needs a web framework with more momentum

[Mark Engelberg]

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Sven Richter 
wrote:

> Reading through all the discussion I don't get which features you are
> actually missing. I love luminus and did a lot with it, however, for me it
> was missing some standard stuff, that's why I put together closp, which is
> just another leiningen template providing some more features out of the box.
> I'd consider adding even more features if you would become more specific
> in terms of features.
>

For me, one of the killer features that keeps me coming back to
Python/Django for web development is the auto-generated admin interface
that lets non-programmers add new content to the database.

Clojure's Caribou is the only Clojure system I've seen to offer something
similar, but as I recall, Caribou is no longer being actively developed.

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Re: Clojure community organisation

[Mikera]

This is a great initiative. Would love to see an "official" community 
organisation.

Some things I think are particularly important on the content side:
a) Maintain and improve the clojure.org website as the "front page" for the 
community
b) Produce "official" user guides and documentation for Clojure (and key 
contrib libraries, as appropriate)
c) Maintain a "curated" list of recommend tools / libraries / frameworks 
 (ideally with some expert commentary on when they should be used). should 
include stuff like Ring etc.
d) Maintain a directory of links to other useful content (videos, 
tutorials, tools like cross-clj etc.) 

All of these I feel are very important for continued Clojure adoption. 
There are a lot of good resources already, but they are quite fragmented 
and difficult for a beginner to navigate. From the point of view of 
engaging the community to held develop all this content, I strongly believe 
an "official" organisation would be much more likely to attract good 
content contributions.

On the administrative and operational side, I think the organisation could 
take over some key tasks (I'm assuming the people who currently do this 
would be willing to either hand these over or become part of the 
organisation team):
a) Maintaining CLAs
b) Development process and tools (Github org, clojure-dev, JIRA etc.)
c) Conference sponsorship
d) Programmes like GSoC etc.

Just some ideas, hope they are useful!

On Wednesday, 29 April 2015 06:02:50 UTC+8, Daniel Solano Gómez wrote:
>
> Hello, all, 
>
> I've brought up the idea of some sort of Clojure community organisation 
> a few times on this mailing list.  The ideas is to help grow the Clojure 
> community by doing things like supporting GSoC students, run 
> infrastructure like Clojars, help run conferences, etc.  I have decided 
> to start moving forward and apply for fiscal sponsorship from the 
> Software Freedom Conservancy and Software in the Public Interest.  Those 
> things take time to work themselves out.  In the meantime, I appreciate 
> any input/feedback about what this org should do or what it should look 
> like.  As such, I have posted a page on the community wiki to start 
> braainstorming and discussing ideas 
> . 
>
>
> A big thank you to everyone.  Participating in this community has been a 
> very positive experience for me, and I would love to see it to continue 
> to flourish.  I appreciate any help or advice on how to make this 
> initiative succeed in supporting the community. 
>
> Sincerely, 
>
> Daniel 
>

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[ANN] lein-jammin

[Zach Tellman]

https://github.com/ztellman/lein-jammin

This one's pretty simple: you put `lein jammin ` in front of any 
other Leiningen task, and if it gets stuck for the specified duration, it 
prints out a thread dump.  This especially useful for tests, and 
extra-especially useful for tests in a CI environment where using `jstack` 
or similar tools is difficult or impossible.

Enjoy,
Zach

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