Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
Thanks guys! (And also to the other announcement.) On Oct 4, 2:07 pm, Mayank Jain wrote: > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:58 AM, Michael Fogus wrote: > > > Here's one approach: Make a github of the code and content that runs the > > site. People fork and make pull requests. > > > You talked me into it. > > >https://github.com/fogus/www-readevalprintlove-org > > Awesome! So beautiful! I can just keep staring at it :) > > Can you share what all exactly do we need to add to this site for now? > And how do you think we can go about it? > Thanks :) > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Clojure" group. > > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > > your first post. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > -- > Regards, > Mayank. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:58 AM, Michael Fogus wrote: > > Here's one approach: Make a github of the code and content that runs the > site. People fork and make pull requests. > > You talked me into it. > > https://github.com/fogus/www-readevalprintlove-org > Awesome! So beautiful! I can just keep staring at it :) Can you share what all exactly do we need to add to this site for now? And how do you think we can go about it? Thanks :) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > -- Regards, Mayank. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
I loved Mathematica's documentation that had "lovingly maintained by..." in the sidebar or something to that effect. It was really apparent that the maintainer did lovingly maintain it. Can't seem to find it at the moment though. On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Brent Millare wrote: > lol, That is really awesome! > > I'm going to have to really read through the sources now. > > > On Thursday, October 4, 2012 3:28:41 PM UTC-4, Fogus wrote: >> >> > Here's one approach: Make a github of the code and content that runs the >> > site. People fork and make pull requests. >> >> You talked me into it. >> >> https://github.com/fogus/www-readevalprintlove-org > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- ((λ (x) (x x)) (λ (x) (x x))) http://www.wisdomandwonder.com/ ACM, AMA, COG, IEEE -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
lol, That is really awesome! I'm going to have to really read through the sources now. On Thursday, October 4, 2012 3:28:41 PM UTC-4, Fogus wrote: > > > Here's one approach: Make a github of the code and content that runs the > site. People fork and make pull requests. > > You talked me into it. > > https://github.com/fogus/www-readevalprintlove-org > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
> Here's one approach: Make a github of the code and content that runs the > site. People fork and make pull requests. You talked me into it. https://github.com/fogus/www-readevalprintlove-org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
What's the best way to allow collaborative contribution on content that must be agreed upon? Here's one approach: Make a github of the code and content that runs the site. People fork and make pull requests. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
On Oct 3, 8:42 pm, Grant Rettke wrote: > Set up a new site, get users, tweak it, > perfect it, it will become the defacto site, and you will make it > really easy for Rich et al to make the switch :). It may take loads of > hard and unappreciated labor though :(. That is why it has to be a > labor of love. +1 Shantanu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
You guys are over-thinking it. Set up a new site, get users, tweak it, perfect it, it will become the defacto site, and you will make it really easy for Rich et al to make the switch :). It may take loads of hard and unappreciated labor though :(. That is why it has to be a labor of love. On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 8:57 AM, aboy021 wrote: > The general feeling seems to be that there is good content out there, but it > would be nice if it were on Clojure.org, especially from the perspective of > new users and promoting the language. > > The copyright on the site is to Rich Hickey, and the logo and site design > are credited to Tom Hickey. Normally I'd try and contact them directly but > it seems like Rich has got a lot of other (rather wonderful) things to keep > himself busy, and I'm not sure how to contact Tom. > > A contribution process would be nice. I've heard it mooted that markdown > files in a git repo might be a nice way of handling it. > > > > On Tuesday, 2 October 2012 14:07:56 UTC-5, nchurch wrote: >> >> Clojuredocs is already out there and quite good (though not modified >> much as of late). However, it doesn't show up very high on Google >> (not even on the first page for "Clojure"). There's also Learn >> Clojure, which has a clean design but hasn't been updated in a while >> (and also doesn't seem to have a Github link, so unsure how to >> contribute). >> >> It would be nice to see Clojure.org itself have a contribution >> process, not unlike Clojure itself. >> >> On Oct 2, 3:46 am, Yakovlev Roman wrote: >> > You can make your site with many examples and good documentation and >> > maybe >> > it will be at first place at google if it will have great value. >> > >> > A lot of people here will agree with that. Site could be better place to >> > get started ! but old site still there. >> > >> > As far as i know there is a company behind Scala called "TypeSafe" and >> > they >> > got tons of money recently to make the lanugage more popular and >> > attractive >> > to newbie users. So maybe we see good main site and good web frameworks >> > around Scala ( lift and play). >> > So maybe Clojure also need something like this. Though "Relevance" >> > company >> > supports clojure somehow but i guess not enough for now. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:13:49 AM UTC+4, aboy021 wrote: >> > >> > > I decided to quickly compare the website experience of starting >> > > Clojure >> > > and starting Scala. >> > >> > > I do a Google search for Clojure >> > > I decide to try the first link, Clojure.org >> > > There's some basic information. I follow the somewhat obscure link >> > > halfway >> > > down the side, "Getting Started" >> > > Ok, that looks promising, now I can get a REPL to interact with. >> > > I follow the link to the Getting Started Documentation ( >> > >http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started) (isn't that where I >> > > already was?) >> > > Still flailing a bit, I follow the link to Mark Volkmann's Tutorial. >> > > This is the first chance I've had to see what Clojure actually looks >> > > like >> > > and how to program in it. >> > >> > > In stark contrast, I try searching for Scala. >> > > I get presented with an appealing, nicely laid out page with large >> > > links >> > > to an introduction to the language and a page on getting started. >> > > There are links in an easy to navigate menu with Information about the >> > > language, documentation, code examples, Software, and Developer >> > > information. >> > >> > > Now, I'm no Scala developer, but at first glance it seems like I've >> > > found >> > > a great touch stone that I can use to find out what's happening in the >> > > language, how it looks, what it can do for me, and I can learn how to >> > > write >> > > it. >> > >> > > Another thing that the scala-lang site has is Code Examples. Code >> > > examples >> > > are a really nice way for you to get a taste of how a language can >> > > solve >> > > common problems, and they can give you a real sense of the flavour of >> > > the >> > > language. >> > >> > > A lot of the information for Clojure seems to be there, it's just not >> > > laid >> > > out in an attractive easy to use format. Perhaps we could have a >> > > fundraiser >> > > to pay for a web designer to make a nice modern website that contains >> > > the >> > > information in an easier to digest and more centralised way >> > >> > > The getting started issue is an ongoing problem for Clojure. It's an >> > > issue >> > > that keeps coming up in the surveys and on the mailing list. Other >> > > languages are doing it really well, Scala is just a convenient >> > > example. >> > > What does the Clojure community need to do to help support the >> > > creation of >> > > something that is on par? > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new membe
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
The general feeling seems to be that there is good content out there, but it would be nice if it were on Clojure.org, especially from the perspective of new users and promoting the language. The copyright on the site is to Rich Hickey, and the logo and site design are credited to Tom Hickey. Normally I'd try and contact them directly but it seems like Rich has got a lot of other (rather wonderful) things to keep himself busy, and I'm not sure how to contact Tom. A contribution process would be nice. I've heard it mooted that markdown files in a git repo might be a nice way of handling it. On Tuesday, 2 October 2012 14:07:56 UTC-5, nchurch wrote: > > Clojuredocs is already out there and quite good (though not modified > much as of late). However, it doesn't show up very high on Google > (not even on the first page for "Clojure"). There's also Learn > Clojure, which has a clean design but hasn't been updated in a while > (and also doesn't seem to have a Github link, so unsure how to > contribute). > > It would be nice to see Clojure.org itself have a contribution > process, not unlike Clojure itself. > > On Oct 2, 3:46 am, Yakovlev Roman wrote: > > You can make your site with many examples and good documentation and > maybe > > it will be at first place at google if it will have great value. > > > > A lot of people here will agree with that. Site could be better place to > > get started ! but old site still there. > > > > As far as i know there is a company behind Scala called "TypeSafe" and > they > > got tons of money recently to make the lanugage more popular and > attractive > > to newbie users. So maybe we see good main site and good web frameworks > > around Scala ( lift and play). > > So maybe Clojure also need something like this. Though "Relevance" > company > > supports clojure somehow but i guess not enough for now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:13:49 AM UTC+4, aboy021 wrote: > > > > > I decided to quickly compare the website experience of starting > Clojure > > > and starting Scala. > > > > > I do a Google search for Clojure > > > I decide to try the first link, Clojure.org > > > There's some basic information. I follow the somewhat obscure link > halfway > > > down the side, "Getting Started" > > > Ok, that looks promising, now I can get a REPL to interact with. > > > I follow the link to the Getting Started Documentation ( > > >http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started) (isn't that where > I > > > already was?) > > > Still flailing a bit, I follow the link to Mark Volkmann's Tutorial. > > > This is the first chance I've had to see what Clojure actually looks > like > > > and how to program in it. > > > > > In stark contrast, I try searching for Scala. > > > I get presented with an appealing, nicely laid out page with large > links > > > to an introduction to the language and a page on getting started. > > > There are links in an easy to navigate menu with Information about the > > > language, documentation, code examples, Software, and Developer > information. > > > > > Now, I'm no Scala developer, but at first glance it seems like I've > found > > > a great touch stone that I can use to find out what's happening in the > > > language, how it looks, what it can do for me, and I can learn how to > write > > > it. > > > > > Another thing that the scala-lang site has is Code Examples. Code > examples > > > are a really nice way for you to get a taste of how a language can > solve > > > common problems, and they can give you a real sense of the flavour of > the > > > language. > > > > > A lot of the information for Clojure seems to be there, it's just not > laid > > > out in an attractive easy to use format. Perhaps we could have a > fundraiser > > > to pay for a web designer to make a nice modern website that contains > the > > > information in an easier to digest and more centralised way > > > > > The getting started issue is an ongoing problem for Clojure. It's an > issue > > > that keeps coming up in the surveys and on the mailing list. Other > > > languages are doing it really well, Scala is just a convenient > example. > > > What does the Clojure community need to do to help support the > creation of > > > something that is on par? > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
Clojuredocs is already out there and quite good (though not modified much as of late). However, it doesn't show up very high on Google (not even on the first page for "Clojure"). There's also Learn Clojure, which has a clean design but hasn't been updated in a while (and also doesn't seem to have a Github link, so unsure how to contribute). It would be nice to see Clojure.org itself have a contribution process, not unlike Clojure itself. On Oct 2, 3:46 am, Yakovlev Roman wrote: > You can make your site with many examples and good documentation and maybe > it will be at first place at google if it will have great value. > > A lot of people here will agree with that. Site could be better place to > get started ! but old site still there. > > As far as i know there is a company behind Scala called "TypeSafe" and they > got tons of money recently to make the lanugage more popular and attractive > to newbie users. So maybe we see good main site and good web frameworks > around Scala ( lift and play). > So maybe Clojure also need something like this. Though "Relevance" company > supports clojure somehow but i guess not enough for now. > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:13:49 AM UTC+4, aboy021 wrote: > > > I decided to quickly compare the website experience of starting Clojure > > and starting Scala. > > > I do a Google search for Clojure > > I decide to try the first link, Clojure.org > > There's some basic information. I follow the somewhat obscure link halfway > > down the side, "Getting Started" > > Ok, that looks promising, now I can get a REPL to interact with. > > I follow the link to the Getting Started Documentation ( > >http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started) (isn't that where I > > already was?) > > Still flailing a bit, I follow the link to Mark Volkmann's Tutorial. > > This is the first chance I've had to see what Clojure actually looks like > > and how to program in it. > > > In stark contrast, I try searching for Scala. > > I get presented with an appealing, nicely laid out page with large links > > to an introduction to the language and a page on getting started. > > There are links in an easy to navigate menu with Information about the > > language, documentation, code examples, Software, and Developer information. > > > Now, I'm no Scala developer, but at first glance it seems like I've found > > a great touch stone that I can use to find out what's happening in the > > language, how it looks, what it can do for me, and I can learn how to write > > it. > > > Another thing that the scala-lang site has is Code Examples. Code examples > > are a really nice way for you to get a taste of how a language can solve > > common problems, and they can give you a real sense of the flavour of the > > language. > > > A lot of the information for Clojure seems to be there, it's just not laid > > out in an attractive easy to use format. Perhaps we could have a fundraiser > > to pay for a web designer to make a nice modern website that contains the > > information in an easier to digest and more centralised way > > > The getting started issue is an ongoing problem for Clojure. It's an issue > > that keeps coming up in the surveys and on the mailing list. Other > > languages are doing it really well, Scala is just a convenient example. > > What does the Clojure community need to do to help support the creation of > > something that is on par? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
You can make your site with many examples and good documentation and maybe it will be at first place at google if it will have great value. A lot of people here will agree with that. Site could be better place to get started ! but old site still there. As far as i know there is a company behind Scala called "TypeSafe" and they got tons of money recently to make the lanugage more popular and attractive to newbie users. So maybe we see good main site and good web frameworks around Scala ( lift and play). So maybe Clojure also need something like this. Though "Relevance" company supports clojure somehow but i guess not enough for now. On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:13:49 AM UTC+4, aboy021 wrote: > > I decided to quickly compare the website experience of starting Clojure > and starting Scala. > > I do a Google search for Clojure > I decide to try the first link, Clojure.org > There's some basic information. I follow the somewhat obscure link halfway > down the side, "Getting Started" > Ok, that looks promising, now I can get a REPL to interact with. > I follow the link to the Getting Started Documentation ( > http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started) (isn't that where I > already was?) > Still flailing a bit, I follow the link to Mark Volkmann's Tutorial. > This is the first chance I've had to see what Clojure actually looks like > and how to program in it. > > In stark contrast, I try searching for Scala. > I get presented with an appealing, nicely laid out page with large links > to an introduction to the language and a page on getting started. > There are links in an easy to navigate menu with Information about the > language, documentation, code examples, Software, and Developer information. > > Now, I'm no Scala developer, but at first glance it seems like I've found > a great touch stone that I can use to find out what's happening in the > language, how it looks, what it can do for me, and I can learn how to write > it. > > Another thing that the scala-lang site has is Code Examples. Code examples > are a really nice way for you to get a taste of how a language can solve > common problems, and they can give you a real sense of the flavour of the > language. > > A lot of the information for Clojure seems to be there, it's just not laid > out in an attractive easy to use format. Perhaps we could have a fundraiser > to pay for a web designer to make a nice modern website that contains the > information in an easier to digest and more centralised way > > The getting started issue is an ongoing problem for Clojure. It's an issue > that keeps coming up in the surveys and on the mailing list. Other > languages are doing it really well, Scala is just a convenient example. > What does the Clojure community need to do to help support the creation of > something that is on par? > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
I should clarify that the issue with Clojure.org isn't really \design, per seit's the choice of what to present on what level. Scala gives you pointers for what you need to know, right away at the top: About Scala, Documentation, Code Examples, Software, Scala Developers. Whereas Clojure has a sidebar taller that the average screen; one of the subjects is: Multimethods and Hierarchies Which doesn't \mean anything unless you already know multimethods \well. A lot of good material is on the site already; but it seems to have been added incrementally without any big choices being made about how to organize it. On Oct 1, 11:20 pm, nchurch wrote: > To cite some concrete examples: > > "Datomic" > > 0 hits on Clojure.org > > "Clojurescript" > > 1 hit > > On Oct 1, 11:09 pm, nchurch wrote: > > > > > > > > > I put together the Getting Started confluence page. I'm sure it could > > still be improved, but adding further to it won't really fix the > > problems you've noticed, and that many other people have noted. It's > > still on a secondary site, and Confluence doesn't really give you a > > lot of design optionsalso ordinary Clojure Contributors don't have > > the ability to \delete existing pages, so new material will for now > > just add clutter on the sidebar. > > > At least one respected Clojurian that I know of has offered to write a > > new clojure.org site, but replacing or updating it has not been a > > priority. > > > Brent is right that you can find what you need on Clojure.org without > > it being "pretty", but the current (and now quite old) site sends new > > users some messages we may not necessarily intend: > > > 1. People hoping merely to Get Something Done will be looking to a > > streamlined site as evidence that they won't have to waste too much > > time getting up and running with their work. These users will note, > > consciously or not, that the information they really need is one among > > many choices buried on a link off the bottom of a page linked from the > > \sixth subheading on the sidebar of the main site. (Yes, Getting > > Started apparently falls under 'Reference'which is itself > > secondary to 'Swag'.) > > > 2. People looking to make a creative contribution will look for > > evidence that what they have to offer is valued. If that contribution > > is tools for building well-designed websites, Clojure.org will not > > give the impression that anyone in the community would care. This > > impression would be false, but you'd have to look quite a bit harder > > to realize this. > > > Some people may not mind turning away new user #1; but turning away > > new user #2 is unfortunate in any possible world. > > > If I wanted to give someone an elevator pitch for Clojure, I'd admit > > that it is new and has some rough edges; but that it offers tremendous > > flexibility, power, and concision; and that it is evolving into an > > environment where an entire web application, from data all the way up > > to presentation, can be written in the same carefully-designed > > language and environment. > > > That's \huge, but it doesn't come across in Clojure.org at all. > > > On Oct 1, 2:13 pm, aboy021 wrote: > > > > I decided to quickly compare the website experience of starting Clojure > > > and > > > starting Scala. > > > > I do a Google search for Clojure > > > I decide to try the first link, Clojure.org > > > There's some basic information. I follow the somewhat obscure link halfway > > > down the side, "Getting Started" > > > Ok, that looks promising, now I can get a REPL to interact with. > > > I follow the link to the Getting Started Documentation > > > (http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started) (isn't that where I > > > already was?) > > > Still flailing a bit, I follow the link to Mark Volkmann's Tutorial. > > > This is the first chance I've had to see what Clojure actually looks like > > > and how to program in it. > > > > In stark contrast, I try searching for Scala. > > > I get presented with an appealing, nicely laid out page with large links > > > to > > > an introduction to the language and a page on getting started. > > > There are links in an easy to navigate menu with Information about the > > > language, documentation, code examples, Software, and Developer > > > information. > > > > Now, I'm no Scala developer, but at first glance it seems like I've found > > > a > > > great touch stone that I can use to find out what's happening in the > > > language, how it looks, what it can do for me, and I can learn how to > > > write > > > it. > > > > Another thing that the scala-lang site has is Code Examples. Code examples > > > are a really nice way for you to get a taste of how a language can solve > > > common problems, and they can give you a real sense of the flavour of the > > > language. > > > > A lot of the information for Clojure seems to be there, it's just not laid > > > out in an attractive easy to use format. Perhaps we could have a
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
To cite some concrete examples: "Datomic" 0 hits on Clojure.org "Clojurescript" 1 hit On Oct 1, 11:09 pm, nchurch wrote: > I put together the Getting Started confluence page. I'm sure it could > still be improved, but adding further to it won't really fix the > problems you've noticed, and that many other people have noted. It's > still on a secondary site, and Confluence doesn't really give you a > lot of design optionsalso ordinary Clojure Contributors don't have > the ability to \delete existing pages, so new material will for now > just add clutter on the sidebar. > > At least one respected Clojurian that I know of has offered to write a > new clojure.org site, but replacing or updating it has not been a > priority. > > Brent is right that you can find what you need on Clojure.org without > it being "pretty", but the current (and now quite old) site sends new > users some messages we may not necessarily intend: > > 1. People hoping merely to Get Something Done will be looking to a > streamlined site as evidence that they won't have to waste too much > time getting up and running with their work. These users will note, > consciously or not, that the information they really need is one among > many choices buried on a link off the bottom of a page linked from the > \sixth subheading on the sidebar of the main site. (Yes, Getting > Started apparently falls under 'Reference'which is itself > secondary to 'Swag'.) > > 2. People looking to make a creative contribution will look for > evidence that what they have to offer is valued. If that contribution > is tools for building well-designed websites, Clojure.org will not > give the impression that anyone in the community would care. This > impression would be false, but you'd have to look quite a bit harder > to realize this. > > Some people may not mind turning away new user #1; but turning away > new user #2 is unfortunate in any possible world. > > If I wanted to give someone an elevator pitch for Clojure, I'd admit > that it is new and has some rough edges; but that it offers tremendous > flexibility, power, and concision; and that it is evolving into an > environment where an entire web application, from data all the way up > to presentation, can be written in the same carefully-designed > language and environment. > > That's \huge, but it doesn't come across in Clojure.org at all. > > On Oct 1, 2:13 pm, aboy021 wrote: > > > > > > > > > I decided to quickly compare the website experience of starting Clojure and > > starting Scala. > > > I do a Google search for Clojure > > I decide to try the first link, Clojure.org > > There's some basic information. I follow the somewhat obscure link halfway > > down the side, "Getting Started" > > Ok, that looks promising, now I can get a REPL to interact with. > > I follow the link to the Getting Started Documentation > > (http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started) (isn't that where I > > already was?) > > Still flailing a bit, I follow the link to Mark Volkmann's Tutorial. > > This is the first chance I've had to see what Clojure actually looks like > > and how to program in it. > > > In stark contrast, I try searching for Scala. > > I get presented with an appealing, nicely laid out page with large links to > > an introduction to the language and a page on getting started. > > There are links in an easy to navigate menu with Information about the > > language, documentation, code examples, Software, and Developer information. > > > Now, I'm no Scala developer, but at first glance it seems like I've found a > > great touch stone that I can use to find out what's happening in the > > language, how it looks, what it can do for me, and I can learn how to write > > it. > > > Another thing that the scala-lang site has is Code Examples. Code examples > > are a really nice way for you to get a taste of how a language can solve > > common problems, and they can give you a real sense of the flavour of the > > language. > > > A lot of the information for Clojure seems to be there, it's just not laid > > out in an attractive easy to use format. Perhaps we could have a fundraiser > > to pay for a web designer to make a nice modern website that contains the > > information in an easier to digest and more centralised way > > > The getting started issue is an ongoing problem for Clojure. It's an issue > > that keeps coming up in the surveys and on the mailing list. Other > > languages are doing it really well, Scala is just a convenient example. > > What does the Clojure community need to do to help support the creation of > > something that is on par? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
I put together the Getting Started confluence page. I'm sure it could still be improved, but adding further to it won't really fix the problems you've noticed, and that many other people have noted. It's still on a secondary site, and Confluence doesn't really give you a lot of design optionsalso ordinary Clojure Contributors don't have the ability to \delete existing pages, so new material will for now just add clutter on the sidebar. At least one respected Clojurian that I know of has offered to write a new clojure.org site, but replacing or updating it has not been a priority. Brent is right that you can find what you need on Clojure.org without it being "pretty", but the current (and now quite old) site sends new users some messages we may not necessarily intend: 1. People hoping merely to Get Something Done will be looking to a streamlined site as evidence that they won't have to waste too much time getting up and running with their work. These users will note, consciously or not, that the information they really need is one among many choices buried on a link off the bottom of a page linked from the \sixth subheading on the sidebar of the main site. (Yes, Getting Started apparently falls under 'Reference'which is itself secondary to 'Swag'.) 2. People looking to make a creative contribution will look for evidence that what they have to offer is valued. If that contribution is tools for building well-designed websites, Clojure.org will not give the impression that anyone in the community would care. This impression would be false, but you'd have to look quite a bit harder to realize this. Some people may not mind turning away new user #1; but turning away new user #2 is unfortunate in any possible world. If I wanted to give someone an elevator pitch for Clojure, I'd admit that it is new and has some rough edges; but that it offers tremendous flexibility, power, and concision; and that it is evolving into an environment where an entire web application, from data all the way up to presentation, can be written in the same carefully-designed language and environment. That's \huge, but it doesn't come across in Clojure.org at all. On Oct 1, 2:13 pm, aboy021 wrote: > I decided to quickly compare the website experience of starting Clojure and > starting Scala. > > I do a Google search for Clojure > I decide to try the first link, Clojure.org > There's some basic information. I follow the somewhat obscure link halfway > down the side, "Getting Started" > Ok, that looks promising, now I can get a REPL to interact with. > I follow the link to the Getting Started Documentation > (http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started) (isn't that where I > already was?) > Still flailing a bit, I follow the link to Mark Volkmann's Tutorial. > This is the first chance I've had to see what Clojure actually looks like > and how to program in it. > > In stark contrast, I try searching for Scala. > I get presented with an appealing, nicely laid out page with large links to > an introduction to the language and a page on getting started. > There are links in an easy to navigate menu with Information about the > language, documentation, code examples, Software, and Developer information. > > Now, I'm no Scala developer, but at first glance it seems like I've found a > great touch stone that I can use to find out what's happening in the > language, how it looks, what it can do for me, and I can learn how to write > it. > > Another thing that the scala-lang site has is Code Examples. Code examples > are a really nice way for you to get a taste of how a language can solve > common problems, and they can give you a real sense of the flavour of the > language. > > A lot of the information for Clojure seems to be there, it's just not laid > out in an attractive easy to use format. Perhaps we could have a fundraiser > to pay for a web designer to make a nice modern website that contains the > information in an easier to digest and more centralised way > > The getting started issue is an ongoing problem for Clojure. It's an issue > that keeps coming up in the surveys and on the mailing list. Other > languages are doing it really well, Scala is just a convenient example. > What does the Clojure community need to do to help support the creation of > something that is on par? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
Sounds like the main beef is with the official website's styling and layout. I agree its not necessarily the prettiest but all the information is there. On the other hand, there are plenty of great resources that provide a great "getting started" experience in my opinion. Just typing clojure in google I see tryclojure, which provides a interactive guide with a simple click. Then next, the clojure wiki, which has a lot of free content as well as places to go. Next is the JoyOfClojure book, which is *the* book I'd recommend to any beginning clojure user. Also there is learn-clojure.com which looks nice and seems to address a lot of those "getting started" points. Personally, the styling/layout wasn't an issue for me. I found there to be a lot of good resources out there, but I couldn't just point to one. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
Probably they wouldn't, but that's not the point. The clojure community is doing something wrong for providing a coherent beginner experience. Maybe we aren't good at encouraging people to contribute documentation. Or the composability of Clojure leads to small "library islands" without much community. Don't really know, but something is clearly wrong when so many complains about it. On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Grant Rettke wrote: > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 PM, aboy021 wrote: > > The getting started issue is an ongoing problem for Clojure. It's an > issue > > that keeps coming up in the surveys and on the mailing list. Other > languages > > are doing it really well, Scala is just a convenient example. What does > the > > Clojure community need to do to help support the creation of something > that > > is on par? > > Surely they wouldn't mind you contributing to the website. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Regarding Starting Clojure
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 PM, aboy021 wrote: > The getting started issue is an ongoing problem for Clojure. It's an issue > that keeps coming up in the surveys and on the mailing list. Other languages > are doing it really well, Scala is just a convenient example. What does the > Clojure community need to do to help support the creation of something that > is on par? Surely they wouldn't mind you contributing to the website. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Regarding Starting Clojure
I decided to quickly compare the website experience of starting Clojure and starting Scala. I do a Google search for Clojure I decide to try the first link, Clojure.org There's some basic information. I follow the somewhat obscure link halfway down the side, "Getting Started" Ok, that looks promising, now I can get a REPL to interact with. I follow the link to the Getting Started Documentation (http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started) (isn't that where I already was?) Still flailing a bit, I follow the link to Mark Volkmann's Tutorial. This is the first chance I've had to see what Clojure actually looks like and how to program in it. In stark contrast, I try searching for Scala. I get presented with an appealing, nicely laid out page with large links to an introduction to the language and a page on getting started. There are links in an easy to navigate menu with Information about the language, documentation, code examples, Software, and Developer information. Now, I'm no Scala developer, but at first glance it seems like I've found a great touch stone that I can use to find out what's happening in the language, how it looks, what it can do for me, and I can learn how to write it. Another thing that the scala-lang site has is Code Examples. Code examples are a really nice way for you to get a taste of how a language can solve common problems, and they can give you a real sense of the flavour of the language. A lot of the information for Clojure seems to be there, it's just not laid out in an attractive easy to use format. Perhaps we could have a fundraiser to pay for a web designer to make a nice modern website that contains the information in an easier to digest and more centralised way The getting started issue is an ongoing problem for Clojure. It's an issue that keeps coming up in the surveys and on the mailing list. Other languages are doing it really well, Scala is just a convenient example. What does the Clojure community need to do to help support the creation of something that is on par? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
