Re: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
What is CMS? No one until now know what is Really CMS Some vendors provides application for web site management or page management and they think they are providing CMS When you see a system that only give you the ability to create pages depending on Template and, manage the created pages, you are working with design or HTML editing tool If you see, in addition to that, a Workflow and authorization that can be assigned to these pages, you are working with web or pages management tool But if you see a system that work with content elements and give you the ability to use or re-use these content elements to create different type of content blocks that can be used to create different format of unlimited number of pages with workflow and authorization assigned to them, you are working with CMS And also, if you see a system that in addition to all above enables you to create personalization and content delivery, you are working with extended-CMS or portal solution This is CMS CMS must help you define you content elements as you need CMS must help you sharing and publishing information in different format CMS must help you create as many pages as you want form specific content element CMS help users create and edit content NOT pages CMS Create Pages from content NOT content from Pages CMS Manage the pages that are created by CMS itself NOT by user CMS provide Workflow and authorization in the content element itself NOT in Pages Thanks Emad Sarhan Tech Manager - Arab IT - Original Message - From: "Alvin Tan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 3:24 PM Subject: [cms-list] new to list/cm > Hi List Members, > > My name is Alvin Tan from the Philippines and im new > to this list. I(along with 3 groupmates) am proposing > a thesis topic this coming Monday regarding CM. For a > week, we have been reading through articles online but > we always get confused on what really is CM because > each article or vendor case study we read are defining > or scoping CM differently. Some CM defines as purely > web site management and some are not. I hope some list > members can help us out on this. We also need to > propose an application using CM concept to solve a > particular IT/IS problem. Real world examples or CM > experiences will really help us understand it. Another > uncertainty we are dealing/anwering is that , should > there be a EDMS (Document Management) in place for CM > to work? Well, i'll stop here for now. Any > suggestions? Replies will really be appreciated. Thank > yuo and im glad i found this list! > > Regards, > Alvin Tan > > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > -- > http://cms-list.org/ > more signal, less noise. -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
Re: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
emad, thank you for the reply. i agree on your definition however given a publishing scenario, how would i apply CMS? how would content be broken down? im actually doing a publishing(online magazine or newsletter) management system(believing that it will be conceptualize from CM) but my professor is insisting that my proposal is a document management not a content management. i hope you can use a publishing application as an example. thank you! regards, alvin --- emad Sarhan - Arab IT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What is CMS? > > No one until now know what is Really CMS > Some vendors provides application for web site > management or page management > and they think they are providing CMS > When you see a system that only give you the ability > to create pages > depending on Template and, manage the created pages, > you are working with > design or HTML editing tool > If you see, in addition to that, a Workflow and > authorization that can be > assigned to these pages, you are working with web or > pages management tool > > But if you see a system that work with content > elements and give you the > ability to use or re-use these content elements to > create different type of > content blocks that can be used to create different > format of unlimited > number of pages with workflow and authorization > assigned to them, you are > working with CMS > > And also, if you see a system that in addition to > all above enables you to > create personalization and content delivery, you are > working with > extended-CMS or portal solution > > > > This is CMS > > CMS must help you define you content elements as you > need > CMS must help you sharing and publishing information > in different format > CMS must help you create as many pages as you want > form specific content > element > CMS help users create and edit content NOT pages > CMS Create Pages from content NOT content from Pages > CMS Manage the pages that are created by CMS itself > NOT by user > CMS provide Workflow and authorization in the > content element itself NOT in > Pages > > > Thanks > > Emad Sarhan > Tech Manager - Arab IT > - Original Message - > From: "Alvin Tan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 3:24 PM > Subject: [cms-list] new to list/cm > > > > Hi List Members, > > > > My name is Alvin Tan from the Philippines and im > new > > to this list. I(along with 3 groupmates) am > proposing > > a thesis topic this coming Monday regarding CM. > For a > > week, we have been reading through articles online > but > > we always get confused on what really is CM > because > > each article or vendor case study we read are > defining > > or scoping CM differently. Some CM defines as > purely > > web site management and some are not. I hope some > list > > members can help us out on this. We also need to > > propose an application using CM concept to solve a > > particular IT/IS problem. Real world examples or > CM > > experiences will really help us understand it. > Another > > uncertainty we are dealing/anwering is that , > should > > there be a EDMS (Document Management) in place for > CM > > to work? Well, i'll stop here for now. Any > > suggestions? Replies will really be appreciated. > Thank > > yuo and im glad i found this list! > > > > Regards, > > Alvin Tan > > > > > > > > __ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up > now. > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > -- > > http://cms-list.org/ > > more signal, less noise. > > > -- > http://cms-list.org/ > more signal, less noise. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Good overall list. The only thing I'd quibble with: > CMS help users create and edit content NOT pages The ultimate look and feel of your content IS important and is not something that should be left to the DBA or whover who oversees the overall CMS. If you ask me, a CMS should make it as easy for designers and artists to design, manipulate and output "pages" (essentially, the shells into which content is poured) as it should for writers and editors to create and output content. Adam Gaffin Executive Editor, Network World Fusion [EMAIL PROTECTED] / (508) 490-6433 / http://www.nwfusion.com "I programmed my robotic dog to bite the guy who delivers the electronic mail." -- Kibo -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
Re: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Well I'd more than just quibble with Emad's emphasis on "NOT pages". Of course a CMS must separate content from presentation (or "page structure" if you like). But from a usability perspective, it is very often better not to make that separation too explicit in the authoring process. I've often seen editorial users frankly baffled by complex hierarchies of content elements that do not (in their view) naturally map to their website structure. In many contexts, you can get the best of both worlds by offering WYSIWYG "page" authoring to editorial users and only separating out the content objects for reuse behind the scenes. Even where workflow or other concerns make authoring of smaller elements desirable, these still have to be edited through some interface: you can treat this document as a "page" also, albeit not a publishable one. We need to remember that CMS *users* are not interested in the theory of CMS: they have business problems to solve around authoring and managing content. We need to make that process as simple and intuitive as possible. michael -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Totally agree that users can have lots of difficulty when presented with Content Wysiwyg pages that allow the user to "get the feel" of what he is entering or creating is the real requirement. Complicated stuff should be kept to the end. We have seen many demo's of product that they say is easy, but it may be to the techies but not to the normal mortals. Kind Regards Kay Kennedy NBS Solutions Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:www.nbs-solutions.com Tel:+44 (0)1293 442797 Fax:+44 (0)1293 565661 Privileged/confidential information and/or copyright material may be contained in this E-mail. This information and material is intended for the use of the addressee only, or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended addressee, and so you may not copy it or deliver it to anyone else, or use it in any unauthorised manner. To do so is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you receive this E-mail by mistake, please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your E-mail software. -Original Message- From: Michael Kowalski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 30 January 2003 16:43 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS? Well I'd more than just quibble with Emad's emphasis on "NOT pages". Of course a CMS must separate content from presentation (or "page structure" if you like). But from a usability perspective, it is very often better not to make that separation too explicit in the authoring process. I've often seen editorial users frankly baffled by complex hierarchies of content elements that do not (in their view) naturally map to their website structure. In many contexts, you can get the best of both worlds by offering WYSIWYG "page" authoring to editorial users and only separating out the content objects for reuse behind the scenes. Even where workflow or other concerns make authoring of smaller elements desirable, these still have to be edited through some interface: you can treat this document as a "page" also, albeit not a publishable one. We need to remember that CMS *users* are not interested in the theory of CMS: they have business problems to solve around authoring and managing content. We need to make that process as simple and intuitive as possible. michael -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise. -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
> Totally agree that users can have lots of difficulty when > presented with > Content > Wysiwyg pages that allow the user to "get the feel" of what > he is entering > or creating is the real requirement. Is this an issue of human nature, or simply learned behavior? I agree that content should be content...devoid of any specific presentation initially. I also agree that many content authors have trouble grasping that. So, I guess is more of a theoretical type question: why is that? Is it that content authors aren't properly acquainted with the new concept of content autonomy? Is it a remnant of our past (ie, we are used to paper documents)? Is it only natural behavior to want to build a 'page' vs. content? I've worked at newspapers before and that was the closest I had come to 'raw content' and it didn't seem to be overly difficult for anyone to understand. Writers wrote simple text devoid of presentation. Copysetters did the presentation and layout. In an office environment, it's different, of course, but I'd like to throw out the argument that having authors fully understand the concept of seperating their content completely from any presentational structure is a critical concept to grasp for the content management system/process to work properly. Thoughts? -Darrel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
Re: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Ahhh my favorite two questions... What is CM? and What should a CMS do? Seeing that you don't yet have access to my ramblings in the cms-list archive, I'll throw in my 2 cents again. And I promise I'll keep my response short(er) this time. ;-) If you're out there evaluating/comparing products, then product classifications can provide at least a starting point. But I wouldn't recommend that you get hung up with definitions. You'll quickly find that there are several generally accepted definitions for CM and CMS - the answer depending on the perspective and personal experience of the respondent. Fact is, a few years ago, so-coined CMSs held very specific roles in the enterprise. Some evolved from roots in DM and SCM, while others evolved from areas such as website management and publishing. As these systems evolved they engulfed hundreds of new features, assimilated dozens of complementary products, and became so closely integrated with other software applications that it's often difficult, if not impossible, to tell where CM ends and other products/processes begin.To further complicate your lives, we've created several new product categories such as KM, WCMS, ECMS, LMS, and LCMS - all variations of a common theme: the aggregation, management, and dissemination of so-called "content". I'll leave the word "content" to your imagination. Despite what others might tell you, content is whatever you believe it to be, whatever makes sense to your organization. Think about the content you wish to manage, and how you need to manage it. Now, find a product, or develop one, that meets your needs. When you're done, and it's installed, and you're up and running, and "managing" your "content"...feel free to call it whatever you like. I grown fond of calling mine a Stuff Management System because it manages all sorts of stuff. Joe -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Re: the statements below. I think the difficulty everyday non-technical business users have with completely divorcing content from presentation is that it makes it difficult for them to understand how they need to structure their text according. For example - if I work in Marketing Communications and am tasked to write Press Releases, how can I insure that my press release headline, when truncated down to a link or shortened to appear on a WAP phone interface will still make sense and communicate effectively? Format matters to writers, it informs the writing process and serves as the "rules of the road" they must follow in structuring their text and communication agenda. Even in the newspaper example cited below, journalists have some foresight into how their end editorial product will appear as in "Johnson, I need 1,000 words on the trial down at the courthouse and give me a sidebar on who the players are." Even that minimal amount of "presentation" information is critical in helping them structure their copy accordingly. -Original Message- From: Austin, Darrel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 2:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS? Is this an issue of human nature, or simply learned behavior? I agree that content should be content...devoid of any specific presentation initially. I also agree that many content authors have trouble grasping that. So, I guess is more of a theoretical type question: why is that? Is it that content authors aren't properly acquainted with the new concept of content autonomy? Is it a remnant of our past (ie, we are used to paper documents)? Is it only natural behavior to want to build a 'page' vs. content? I've worked at newspapers before and that was the closest I had come to 'raw content' and it didn't seem to be overly difficult for anyone to understand. Writers wrote simple text devoid of presentation. Copysetters did the presentation and layout. In an office environment, it's different, of course, but I'd like to throw out the argument that having authors fully understand the concept of seperating their content completely from any presentational structure is a critical concept to grasp for the content management system/process to work properly. Thoughts? -Darrel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
I certainly don't want this topic to veer off into the realm of off topicness, so if it does, someone shoot it down. That said, I find it a very interesting topic... > For example - if I work in Marketing Communications and am tasked to > write Press Releases, how can I insure that my press release headline, > when truncated down to a link or shortened to appear on a WAP phone > interface will still make sense and communicate effectively? Simply have an additional structural element: - Title - Short title (granted, getting someone in PR to write a short title for a press release is an entirely other discussion... ;o) > Format > matters to writers, it informs the writing process and serves as the > "rules of the road" they must follow in structuring their text and > communication agenda. Is it format or media that matters? When working at the paper, every story was done in a word document. Completely out of context from the final printed paper. This didn't seem to hinder the writing process. I think knowing the media is important. Ie, you write differently for newspapers than for radio...but that is simply different content. If you are writing for radio, you don't necessarily need to know who's doing the voiceover. If you are writing for newspaper, you don't necessarily have to known the column width or type size (though cahracter count might be an issue...) > Even in the newspaper example cited below, journalists have some > foresight into how their end editorial product will appear as in > "Johnson, I need 1,000 words on the trial down at the courthouse and > give me a sidebar on who the players are." Even that minimal amount of > "presentation" information is critical in helping them structure their > copy accordingly. It doesn't really effect structure...just the amount of content needed: A story of a certain length and a related story of a certain length. I agree that the author needs to know a minimum to ideally craft the content for the medium, but beyond that, I think any direct attemt at correlating content with presentation at the authoring point isn't necessary and, at times, can be a detriment. -Darrel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Hi Darrel, I think you get a better idea of the problem when you see different types of users play with the system. We deal a lot with a sales company based here in Montreal. They are all "sales guys". They consider themselves "visual" even though what they produce hurts my eyes. Even though we have a nice little WYSIWYG editor that automatically adopts the CSS of the site, they complain about the fact that it doesn't properly display the width of the final output. They edit large blocks of texts but when they click preview, it suddenly gets squeezed into a narrow column and then scrolls for several pages on end. To them, knowing where the line wraps is important. They almost base their content's structure on it. Now I completely disagree with the approach but the client is always right, right? The solution is our preview edit mode for inline editing. And to be quite honest, it has become a very popular feature. I don't think we can ever really get away from "visual" editing but that doesn't bother me as long as what's produced is structured. We can still take the inline edited content and spit it out with a different css on a different publication. a. André Milton www.mlore.com -Original Message- Behalf Of Austin, Darrel > Totally agree that users can have lots of difficulty when > presented with > Content > Wysiwyg pages that allow the user to "get the feel" of what > he is entering > or creating is the real requirement. Is this an issue of human nature, or simply learned behavior? I agree that content should be content...devoid of any specific presentation initially. I also agree that many content authors have trouble grasping that. So, I guess is more of a theoretical type question: why is that? Is it that content authors aren't properly acquainted with the new concept of content autonomy? Is it a remnant of our past (ie, we are used to paper documents)? Is it only natural behavior to want to build a 'page' vs. content? I've worked at newspapers before and that was the closest I had come to 'raw content' and it didn't seem to be overly difficult for anyone to understand. Writers wrote simple text devoid of presentation. Copysetters did the presentation and layout. In an office environment, it's different, of course, but I'd like to throw out the argument that having authors fully understand the concept of seperating their content completely from any presentational structure is a critical concept to grasp for the content management system/process to work properly. Thoughts? -Darrel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise. -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
> > In an office environment, it's different, of course, but I'd > like to throw > out the argument that having authors fully understand the concept of > seperating their content completely from any presentational > structure is a > critical concept to grasp for the content management > system/process to work > properly. > Well, it's obviously because newspaper writers and editors are a more highly evolved species, who innately grasp the concept of XML and taxonomy. Has absolutely nothing to do with growing up with systems such as Atex and its 900-key, 20-pound keyboards, nuh uh :-). Whateve the reasons, Darrel is quite right about reporters and editors. We're currently very happy with our CMS (yay!). The vendor has invested quite a lot of effort (and no doubt money) into building a really snazzy WYSIWYG interface for end users that lets them play around with templates and move stuff around a screen and just in general have hours of fun playing graphics designer. We never use it. We like the older interface, which basically consists of a) menus you pick content from and b) "editors" that consist largely of dropdown boxes and radio buttons wrapped around a text editor. When we do have to do fancy-shmancy stuff, well, we have enough people on staff who can use HomeSite to create tables to drop into the HTML (fortunately, we can expose that in those editors). But I'm not sure I understand why the rest of the world should be forced into this mindset. From what little experience I've had with it, the graphical interface of our system (and we're not even up to the version with the really gee-whizzy stuff, I hear) can force all the sorts of stuff you'd expect from an XML-in-your-face system (i.e., you can't transition a document until you fill in a taxonomy form). Why do we keep trying to force people to adapt to the software instead of the other way around? Adam Gaffin Executive Editor, Network World Fusion [EMAIL PROTECTED] / (508) 490-6433 / http://www.nwfusion.com "I programmed my robotic dog to bite the guy who delivers the electronic mail." -- Kibo -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Agreed. But this means that you have to be able to manipulate also the graphic content. And so far, I haven't heard any comment or concern from the list about that. If the look is important, then, you need to be able to generate dynamically buttons, drop-down menus, banners and so on. I am curious to read how the list feels about that. Marc Verstaen CEO - Beatware Inc. http://www.beatware.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Adam Gaffin Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 6:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS? . The ultimate look and feel of your content IS important and is not something that should be left to the DBA or whover who oversees the overall CMS. If you ask me, a CMS should make it as easy for designers and artists to design, manipulate and output "pages" (essentially, the shells into which content is poured) as it should for writers and editors to create and output content. Adam Gaffin Executive Editor, Network World Fusion [EMAIL PROTECTED] / (508) 490-6433 / http://www.nwfusion.com "I programmed my robotic dog to bite the guy who delivers the electronic mail." -- Kibo -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise. -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
> To them, knowing where the line wraps > is important. But is it? It's not. This is just an issue the content author has. Where the line wraps is really irrelevant to most everyone except maybe the graphic designer who is laying out a printed piece...which always takes manual handiwork anyways. In the context of the web, it's not even a concrete concept. So, I guess my point (I should make one, I suppose) is that these types of problems are perceived issues, but not real issues in terms of content quality, and can be a detriment as people are focused on other issues than the quality of the content. A CMS still needs to adopt to perceived issues if they want to make a sale. Is that a good thing or bad thing? I dunno. From the sales POV, the CMS makes a sale and the client is happy because they got what they asked for (as opposed to what they need, but that's nothing new) but the 'idealistic Darrel' thinks that's just getting in the way of moving people away from that mindset. I see it as a problem like those that still double-space after periods. It's not necessary to create the content, but those that have just gotten that habit in their head can't be helped. This isn't meant to sound like client or end-user bashing. I just wonder how often technology goes too far in pampering a user's perceived issues at the cost of not having a better product (and, in the case of a CMS) better content. > Now I > completely disagree > with the approach but the client is always right, right? Well, (putting on my business hat), yes. But of course the real issue is that the client simply isn't prioritizing and separating real needs from perceived needs. But that's nothing new either. > We can still take the inline edited content > and spit it out > with a different css on a different publication. Is that really single-source content management, or is that content repurposing? Or does it really matter in the real world? Adam added: > The vendor has invested > quite a lot of effort (and no doubt money) into building a really snazzy > WYSIWYG interface for end users that lets them play around with templates > and move stuff around a screen and just in general have hours of fun playing > graphics designer. > We never use it. Ha! At least I'm not alone in thinking this, then. ;o) You did mention that "newspaper writers and editors are a more highly evolved species" and that there is really the issue. It's a people issue, not really a technology issue. If you're investing in a CMS, then, by rights, you should be investing in content. That means helping the writers and editors evolve a bit. There's no point in buying a $5000 fridge to store frozen TV dinners. (Bad anology?) > But I'm not sure I understand why the rest of the world should be forced > into this mindset. I concede that forcing end-users into anything is usually a bad idea. From an idealistic standpoint, I think forcing people into that kind of mindset would put an emphasis on the content. In every big web project I've ever worked on, the project was always compromised in the end because the client became enthralled with the presentation and never got around to making good content. It's like taking away the XBox so the kids get their chores done. (Another bad anology?) > Why do we keep trying to force > people to adapt to the software instead of the other way around? It's always a compromise. Interfaces and toolsets should accomodate user needs, while at the same time users should be expected to learn a bit. Checks and balances. (Like I said, though, if you want to sell something, all my arguments go out the window...) -Darrel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Little A, I am sick and tired hearing you talk about "sales guys" and what they present to the CMS market. Believe it or not, alot of sales people enjoy reading these emails, learning about what the "people" are talking about and ultimately learning from all the feedback. You always tout your company and services (WYSIWYG editor) in every email that you participate in and it is fucking anyoying. You are the biggest sales weasle on this list. Lets call a spade a spade. Big B André_Milton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Darrel, I think you get a better idea of the problem when you see different types of users play with the system. We deal a lot with a sales company based here in Montreal. They are all "sales guys". They consider themselves "visual" even though what they produce hurts my eyes. Even though we have a nice little WYSIWYG editor that automatically adopts the CSS of the site, they complain about the fact that it doesn't properly display the width of the final output. They edit large blocks of texts but when they click preview, it suddenly gets squeezed into a narrow column and then scrolls for several pages on end. To them, knowing where the line wraps is important. They almost base their content's structure on it. Now I completely disagree with the approach but the client is always right, right? The solution is our preview edit mode for inline editing. And to be quite honest, it has become a very popular feature. I don't think we can ever really get away from "visual" editing but that doesn't bother me as long as what's produced is structured. We can still take the inline edited content and spit it out with a different css on a different publication. a. André Milton www.mlore.com -Original Message- Behalf Of Austin, Darrel > Totally agree that users can have lots of difficulty when > presented with > Content > Wysiwyg pages that allow the user to "get the feel" of what > he is entering > or creating is the real requirement. Is this an issue of human nature, or simply learned behavior? I agree that content should be content...devoid of any specific presentation initially. I also agree that many content authors have trouble grasping that. So, I guess is more of a theoretical type question: why is that? Is it that content authors aren't properly acquainted with the new concept of content autonomy? Is it a remnant of our past (ie, we are used to paper documents)? Is it only natural behavior to want to build a 'page' vs. content? I've worked at newspapers before and that was the closest I had come to 'raw content' and it didn't seem to be overly difficult for anyone to understand. Writers wrote simple text devoid of presentation. Copysetters did the presentation and layout. In an office environment, it's different, of course, but I'd like to throw out the argument that having authors fully understand the concept of seperating their content completely from any presentational structure is a critical concept to grasp for the content management system/process to work properly. Thoughts? -Darrel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise. -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise. - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
> I am sick and tired hearing you talk about "sales guys" > and what they present to the CMS market. I belive Andre's point was that the CMS client was a sales force. A salesperson isn't necessarily a graphic designer, typographer, or copy editor, and the argument was that they really shouldn't need those tools to create good content. > fucking anyoying. > You are the biggest sales weasle on this list. Lets call a spade a spade. I have no idea what you are referring to, though. -Darrel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
OMG! "Big B", I don't think you read my post closely enough. I like these "sales guys". In fact, they've helped the most in shaping our product over the last year. Their feedback has been invaluable. Who are you and what gives you the right to make such a claim? This'll be my last post for the day... maybe for a while actually so you'll be happy. I'm sorry for being so open about my opinions and experiences. If I have offended anyone else, I apologize and I'm also sorry this ended up on-list. Wow... a. -Original Message- From: Barry Tuthill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Little A, I am sick and tired hearing you talk about "sales guys" and what they present to the CMS market. Believe it or not, alot of sales people enjoy reading these emails, learning about what the "people" are talking about and ultimately learning from all the feedback. You always tout your company and services (WYSIWYG editor) in every email that you participate in and it is fucking anyoying. You are the biggest sales weasle on this list. Lets call a spade a spade. Big B --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
> The ultimate look and feel of your content IS important and is not > something that should be left to the DBA or whover who oversees the > overall CMS. If you ask me, a CMS should make it as easy for > designers > and artists to design, manipulate and output "pages" (essentially, the > shells into which content is poured) as it should for writers and > editors to create and output content. I absolutetly agree. The difference here is that the content authors write, the graphic designers design. There is still clear separation between the two. This ultimately allows for the most flexibility down the road in terms of redesigns, content portability/repurposing, etc...and allows each party to focus on their strengths. -Darrel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Andre_Milton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:OMG! "Big B", I don't think you read my post closely enough. I like these "sales guys". In fact, they've helped the most in shaping our product over the last year. Their feedback has been invaluable. Who are you and what gives you the right to make such a claim? I'm BATMAN! This'll be my last post for the day... maybe for a while actually so you'll be happy. I'm sorry for being so open about my opinions and experiences. If I have offended anyone else, I apologize and I'm also sorry this ended up on-list. Wow... a.-Original Message- From: Barry Tuthill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Little A, I am sick and tired hearing you talk about "sales guys" and what they present to the CMS market. Believe it or not, alot of sales people enjoy reading these emails, learning about what the "people" are talking about and ultimately learning from all the feedback. You always tout your company and services (WYSIWYG editor) in every email that you participate in and it is fucking anyoying. You are the biggest sales weasle on this list. Lets call a spade a spade. Big B - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
At 03:38 PM 1/30/2003 -0500, André Milton wrote: they complain about the fact that it doesn't properly display the width of the final output. They edit large blocks of texts but when they click preview, it suddenly gets squeezed into a narrow column and then scrolls for several pages on end. To them, knowing where the line wraps is important. They almost base their content's structure on it. OK, time to play devil's advocate. One thing I notice both "sales guys" and newspaper copy editors have in common is that they have to get the gist of the article across in the 1st paragraph or two. Sales guys are in a constant battle with short attention spans (of the prospect). I notice longer newspaper stories on pages 1-3 usually want to get the basics of the story across before the dreaded "continued on page D-49". On the web, this all translates to "it must be visible w/out scrolling". In very real terms, the format does dictate the content. This is neither good or bad. It is just a fact. Anyway, separation of content and presentation is a guideline, not a rule. take it easy, Charles Reitzel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
Re: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
> I absolutetly agree. The difference here is that the content authors write, > the graphic designers design. Of course Darrel we know you mean that this is true only in organizations where there is a clear separation between the two roles right? :-) If you look at a breakdown of businesses in the US alone, by size, you'll discover that more than 95% of the businesses are, oh how do I put this nicely, teenie weenie.I was a bit surprised by the large number of people who have no choice but to fill multiple roles. And with the current economy this (wearing multiple hats) has gotten worse, not better. So you're more likely nowadays to run into folks that are both author and novice designer. What to do? Well separate interfaces, to perform separate activities might work for large teams at say the New York Times or Forbes, but it is a pain in the butt when the same person is performing the tasks. So, some vendors do indeed differentiate themselves by combining certain things togetherlike writing and presentation via a WYSIWYG. >There is still clear separation between the > two. This ultimately allows for the most flexibility down the road in terms > of redesigns, content portability/repurposing, etc...and allows each party > to focus on their strengths. Flexibility costs money. Not all companies are looking for the ultimate flexibility...some are simply looking for adequate functionality at a reasonable cost. And for smaller teams, and smaller companies, blended functionality makes sense. Joe -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
Re: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
"Austin, Darrel" wrote: > > Format > > matters to writers, it informs the writing process and serves as the > > "rules of the road" they must follow in structuring their text and > > communication agenda. > > Is it format or media that matters? When working at the paper, every story > was done in a word document. Completely out of context from the final > printed paper. This didn't seem to hinder the writing process. > > I think knowing the media is important. Ie, you write differently for > newspapers than for radio...but that is simply different content. If you are > writing for radio, you don't necessarily need to know who's doing the > voiceover. If you are writing for newspaper, you don't necessarily have to > known the column width or type size (though cahracter count might be an > issue...) [snip for length] > > Even in the newspaper example cited below, journalists have some > > foresight into how their end editorial product will appear as in > > "Johnson, I need 1,000 words on the trial down at the courthouse and > > give me a sidebar on who the players are." Even that minimal amount of > > "presentation" information is critical in helping them structure their > > copy accordingly. > > It doesn't really effect structure...just the amount of content needed: A > story of a certain length and a related story of a certain length. > > I agree that the author needs to know a minimum to ideally craft the content > for the medium, but beyond that, I think any direct attemt at correlating > content with presentation at the authoring point isn't necessary and, at > times, can be a detriment. I'd like to play devil's advocate here. One of the intrinsically different things about presentation on the web -- to say nothing about alternative formats like WAP -- is that you have no idea what the physical presentation parameters are going to be. To give an example of the difference, above mentioned hypothetical journalist knows that his 1,000 word article is going to flowed into one-column wide space. Think that doesn't change the content? On the contrary -- narrower text spaces essentially require shorter paragraphs for readability. The same content on a screen-wide browser window looks ridiculous. For that matter, consider a cleverness I have detected on salon.com. Since they break their articles across pages, some of their writers build up to a "cliff-hanger" comment at the bottom of one page, to get the reader to click-through to the next section of story. If an author cannot anticipate where that break will fall, how can he utilize it? You use the example of radio. How about the example of a "movie". A movie designed for broadcast TV is designed *differently* than one for the big screen, if only to adjust pacing to accommodate commercial breaks, and adjust cinematography to accommodate the different aspect ratio. Should makers of cinema films break their content into small chunks easily digested by broadcast TV, knowing that their film might be aired that way? If content is divorced from format, how can you anticipate and accommodate the medium? You argue that one shouldn't. I certainly know why -- I am a developer, after all, and am inclined to feel likewise. But my understanding of the craft of writing (I presume there are analogs in graphical design) says that *is* a part of the craft, and not to be sacrificed in the name of "flexibility". As a programmer, I too fancy thinking of text as interchangeable cogs. Yet those CMS implementations I have observed which conscientiously structured document sub-assets to permit the re-purposing of text, were *not* used for such. The authors and editors insisted, no, in this other context, new content had to be generated, appropriate to the context. (I have in mind a particular VSS implementation I worked with/on for a company that shall remain nameless. Every article had to be lumped into standardized sections (different article types had different standard sections). Each section of each document was stored as its own asset/record. And *not once* in the history of that system had any section of a document been reused in another document, or elsewhere in the site. Well, not deliberately. Accidents happened. There were only several hundred sections titled "Conclusions" in the system -- it was a very simple mistake to accidentally assign the wrong "Conclusion" section to a document. But I digress.) Might it not be more appropriate to think of the internet not as "a medium", but as "a proliferation of media". To expect internet content to be independent of individual internet media, and equally available and appropriate to all media which constitute the internet is like expecting all content transmitted via electromagnetic radiation to work equally well on both TV and radio. -- Vanessa Layne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Web Toolsmith TERC * 2069 Massachusetts Ave. * Cambridge, MA * 617 547-0430 -- http://cms-list.org/ m
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
> Of course Darrel we know you mean that this is true only in > organizations > where there is a clear separation between the two roles right? :-) Right. I'm certainly speaking theoretically. Still...while the roles may be handled by one person, they really are still two different tasks. Content needs to be established, then it needs to be delivered (with a presentation). There are times when these two need to be developed tightly together, but when that's the case, there really isn't a need for CM as much as DM. > So, some vendors > do indeed differentiate themselves by combining certain things > togetherlike writing and presentation via a WYSIWYG. As you say, there's certainly a market for that. If that's the procedure, though, I'm not sure if you're really going to get a good ROI on a full CMS vs. just getting a copy of Dreamweaver. > Flexibility costs money. And saves money. ;o) > Not all companies are looking for > the ultimate > flexibility...some are simply looking for adequate functionality at a > reasonable cost. Absolutely. And in those cases, they may not actually need a full CMS. Like I said, my arguments begin to show holes when applied to real-world-gotta-sell-a-product scenarios. ;o) -Darrel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Sure, but where do you place the modification of the title in a template or a button? Is it design or content? Marc -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Austin, Darrel Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 1:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS? > The ultimate look and feel of your content IS important and is not > something that should be left to the DBA or whover who oversees the > overall CMS. If you ask me, a CMS should make it as easy for > designers and artists to design, manipulate and output "pages" > (essentially, the shells into which content is poured) as it should > for writers and editors to create and output content. I absolutetly agree. The difference here is that the content authors write, the graphic designers design. There is still clear separation between the two. This ultimately allows for the most flexibility down the road in terms of redesigns, content portability/repurposing, etc...and allows each party to focus on their strengths. -Darrel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise. -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Ok...my last post on the topic (I think people are getting bored with me)... > I'd like to play devil's advocate here. One of the intrinsically > different things about presentation on the web -- to say nothing about > alternative formats like WAP -- is that you have no idea what the > physical presentation parameters are going to be. Right. I agree. > For that matter, consider a cleverness I have detected on salon.com. > Since they break their articles across pages, some of their writers > build up to a "cliff-hanger" comment at the bottom of one page, to get > the reader to click-through to the next section of story. If > an author > cannot anticipate where that break will fall, how can he utilize it? Well, he/she needs to anticipate it happens after so many characters, but he/she doesn't need to know where on the screen it will appear. As you point out, you wouldn't know that anyways. It's going to show up in a different spot on a PDA vs. a 640x480 monitor at the library vs. someone sitting at home with a portrait 1200x1800 monitor. > If content is divorced from format, how can you anticipate and > accommodate the medium? Very true. But if you are going to design for a specific medium's format to begin with, then there's absolutely no reason for the separation argument as you will need to write unique content for each medium. You'll have to write a PDA article, a web article, a pdf article, a RSS article, etc. etc. The separation argument is important for repurposing content. If you are crafting content for specific media, then I completely agree that presentation and content need to be integrated. > You argue that one shouldn't. I certainly know why -- I am a > developer, > after all, and am inclined to feel likewise. But my understanding of > the craft of writing (I presume there are analogs in graphical design) > says that *is* a part of the craft, and not to be sacrificed > in the name > of "flexibility". Well, I'm certainly not a writer. That said, IMHO, if you are a good writer, you should be able to communicate eloquently with ASCII text. Good content can overcome bad presentation. The reverse is less true. If you have x units of employee time for both content and presentation, I'd always argue to maximize the content side of it. (And, for the record, I'm a graphic designer) In summary (I need to wrap this up as I imagine people are getting a bit bored...): Ehmad had a nice list of what a CMS should be used for: - help you define you content elements as you need - help you sharing and publishing information in different format - help you create as many pages as you want form specific content element - help users create and edit content NOT pages - Create Pages from content NOT content from Pages - CMS Manage the pages that are created by CMS itself NOT by user - provide Workflow and authorization in the content element itself NOT in Pages Any attempt at the content author trying to format content based on a specific presentation at the time of authoring makes most of the above bullet points moot. At that point, I believe the user needs to consider a document management model, or a simple page editing system. -Darrel -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
--- "Austin, Darrel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Content needs to be > established, then it needs to be > delivered (with a presentation). There are times > when these two need to be > developed tightly together, but when that's the > case, there really isn't a > need for CM as much as DM. > > can you give an example on.. lets say a magazine company? Alvin __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
The same old questions all over again :) The same old rants all over again :) The same old conclusions all over again :) :) A CMS is just that, a Content Management System. Can be the core of a Portal, the Core of your Web Site, the Core of a Library, the Core of an eLearning Site, the core of a Book making system, a system to manage documents. What they have in common? Most CM systems focus on writers and editor, syndications, integrators (the ones that provide information). They help this people whose primary focus is to provide accessible information to readers on multiple (1...*) devices. The focus is on managing human readable information. In other words, they focus on content that readers do see explicitly. A CMS achieves that by providing the suppliers of information with artifacts (templates, categories, workflows, etc etc) that help them to provide human readable information fast in a systematic fashion according to their organization policies. Teel us what do you want do to do, and what do you need to do it. A CM will not tell you that. Best regards, Nuno Lopes -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
Re: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
OK OK CMS is just a content management system But this system must work Mainly with CONTENT. All services that CMS offers must deal with content first Simply, if the CMS works with Structured content, it is real CMS, even if it provide for users the ability to work with presentation or WYSIWYG editor. It is passable to work with Structured content and in the same time provide for users the ability to enable them get the feel of whole page that specific content appear on it or even there ia an ability to let users manipulate the graphic content and menus. The mist importan is that the CONTENT is the core of the CMS system But if the CMS works only with Pages without the ability to handle content element, it is not CMS, It is simply type of DMS "What users need" is anthor sory, we are talking here about what is CMS, Users could need CMS or could need DMS according to thier requirments Thanks Emad Sarhan - Original Message - From: "Nuno Lopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'cms-list'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:16 AM Subject: RE: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS? > The same old questions all over again :) > The same old rants all over again :) > The same old conclusions all over again :) > :) > > A CMS is just that, a Content Management System. Can be the core of a > Portal, the Core of your Web Site, the Core of a Library, the Core of an > eLearning Site, the core of a Book making system, a system to manage > documents. > > What they have in common? > > Most CM systems focus on writers and editor, > syndications, integrators (the ones that provide information). They help > this people whose primary focus is to provide accessible information to > readers on multiple (1...*) devices. > > The focus is on managing human readable information. In other words, > they focus on content that readers do see explicitly. A CMS achieves > that by providing the suppliers of information with artifacts > (templates, categories, workflows, etc etc) that help them to provide > human readable information fast in a systematic fashion according to > their organization policies. > > Teel us what do you want do to do, and what do you need to do it. A CM > will not tell you that. > > Best regards, > > Nuno Lopes > > > > -- > http://cms-list.org/ > more signal, less noise. -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
Re: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Emad, you're right of course. You just have to bear in mind that the content could (and in many cases, should) *look* like a page in the user interface. It's therefore quite possible for a CMS to *look* rather like a DMS. I can't really agree with Darrel about needing to change the perceptions of content authors. This isn't just about making a sale either: it's about delivering user-focused application design. michael -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
Re: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS?????
Yes, the interface could work with content elements as pages But when we talk about users, we have tow types of users: Admin and Author For Admin, we can force him to work with CMS concept but Authors, We can not do that, the Interface for them must be near to what they understabd Thanks - Original Message - From: "Michael Kowalski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 3:31 AM Subject: Re: [cms-list] new to list/cm - What is CMS? > Emad, you're right of course. > > You just have to bear in mind that the content could (and in many > cases, should) *look* like a page in the user interface. It's therefore > quite possible for a CMS to *look* rather like a DMS. > > I can't really agree with Darrel about needing to change the > perceptions of content authors. This isn't just about making a sale > either: it's about delivering user-focused application design. > > michael > > -- > http://cms-list.org/ > more signal, less noise. -- http://cms-list.org/ more signal, less noise.
