Re: Stus-List Antifreeze Mystery
Sounds more probable than Rich's theory.might putting paper towel around the area that might indicate if there is a leak. And it only happens during the winter so the cold is obviously causing the leakagejust exactly where. Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. On 2015-05-24 1:03 PM, S Thomas via CnC-List wrote: Maybe the pump shaft seal leaks a bit when it is super cold? Steve Thomas CC27 MKIII Port Stanley, ON - Original Message - From: robert via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: robert robertabb...@eastlink.ca Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 11:24 Subject: Stus-List Antifreeze Mystery After the engine is winterized in the Fall, I place a plastic pan under it.not sure why but I do. Every Spring, there is approximately a half a cup or 250 ml of antifreeze in the pan. I have looked everywhere for the source of this antifreeze but I can't find out where it is coming from. The boat was launched 3 weeks ago, the engine has about 3 hours on it since then, the pan is still under the engine but there is no antifreeze in it. And the antifreeze does not appear during the sailing season. I notice every Spring the level of the antifreeze in the 'overflow container' is down a bit and I refill to the 'FULL LEVEL' but that container is not leaking. It's a mystery! Anybody experience this and/or have any ideas where this antifreeze could be originating from? Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List Antifreeze Mystery
After the engine is winterized in the Fall, I place a plastic pan under it.not sure why but I do. Every Spring, there is approximately a half a cup or 250 ml of antifreeze in the pan. I have looked everywhere for the source of this antifreeze but I can't find out where it is coming from. The boat was launched 3 weeks ago, the engine has about 3 hours on it since then, the pan is still under the engine but there is no antifreeze in it. And the antifreeze does not appear during the sailing season. I notice every Spring the level of the antifreeze in the 'overflow container' is down a bit and I refill to the 'FULL LEVEL' but that container is not leaking. It's a mystery! Anybody experience this and/or have any ideas where this antifreeze could be originating from? Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Teak oil suggestions?
Hi Bill, I with you on encouraging anybody to do a good varnish job. Then everyone can enjoy the best finish possible. However, the last couple of times the missus I have done Cetol, due to laziness which we convince ourselves as being too busy, and the results are entirely acceptable. Someday we will return to varnish. But this is not the day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either... maybe next year. :) Cheers, Russ Sweet 35 mk-1 P.S. my varnish routine from freshly wooded is: - turps wipe - 2 coats of 50/50 varnish in one day - light sand turps wipe followed by varnish with a wee bit of Penetrol (for smooth brushing) - repeat each day until at least 5 coats - maintenance EVERY spring fall is a minimum two coats (the second coat in the fall can be done same day if weather is brilliant) - take varnish gear cruising with good intention but do nothing with it :) At 03:30 PM 23/05/2015, you wrote: Come on varnish guys, speak up. Varnish varnish varnish. Nuff said Bill 8 coats Walker Evening Star, cnc 36 Pentwater, Mi. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail -- On Saturday, May 23, 2015 Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: http://www.amazon.com/Starbrite-Tropical-Teak-Classic-Dark/dp/B00DNBGCC8http://www.amazon.com/Starbrite-Tropical-Teak-Classic-Dark/dp/B00DNBGCC8 That's the teak oil I use on my cockpit seat, because varnish is too slippery. It holds up well. I painted everything else. The funny thing about paint is people ask me if it's Cetol. Wal On 5/23/2015 4:39 PM, davidrisch75 via CnC-List wrote: Done with sanding and varnish. What say you? -- s/v Stella Blue http://www.wbryant.comwww.wbryant.com ___ Email address: mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.comCnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.comhttp://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Antifreeze Mystery
Check to insure your engine block drain valves are tight before winter storage. Second thought is weird but offered anyhow. Is antifreeze fresh? Could there be a blockage somewhere where the antifreeze is diluted and freezes which would expand and force the top stuff out somehow. I said it was a weird thought! I will discuss it with the mechanic at the yard who is pretty sharp and seen most things. John CC 32 Arpeggio -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of robert via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 11:25 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: robert Subject: Stus-List Antifreeze Mystery After the engine is winterized in the Fall, I place a plastic pan under it.not sure why but I do. Every Spring, there is approximately a half a cup or 250 ml of antifreeze in the pan. I have looked everywhere for the source of this antifreeze but I can't find out where it is coming from. The boat was launched 3 weeks ago, the engine has about 3 hours on it since then, the pan is still under the engine but there is no antifreeze in it. And the antifreeze does not appear during the sailing season. I notice every Spring the level of the antifreeze in the 'overflow container' is down a bit and I refill to the 'FULL LEVEL' but that container is not leaking. It's a mystery! Anybody experience this and/or have any ideas where this antifreeze could be originating from? Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start
Listers, I find I'm having a harder time getting the engine started and seeing a little bit of darker smoke when it does turn over, as compared to last season. Once running, everything seems fine -- temperature, water flow, revolutions, etc. Any ideas or suggestions? Usually, my solution to engine problems is get the jib out. All the best, Edd --- Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise NCC-1701-B CC 37+ | City Island, NY www.StarshipSailing.com --- 914.332.4400 | Office 914.774.9767 | Mobile --- Sent via iPhone 6 iPhone. iTypos. iApologize___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start
If it is cranking at the usual speed, then the compression might be off a bit in one of the cylinders. This can happen if one of the piston rings has got stuck over the winter. I would warm up the engine good and hot and then take for a run. Run it fairly hard for a couple of hours so long as everything appears to be ok. That should get the carbon out, if there is any, and it might loosen up a seized ring. Black smoke is a sign of a rich mix, but it means little if you have just started the engine after a period of cranking it for a while. If you did not change the oil last fall, then now is the time to change it. I don't know why, but I have found that lubricating oil sitting for a while in diesel engines is more likely to go bad than in gasoline engines. Maybe it is climate dependent, but that has been my experience limited though that may be. Steve Thomas CC27 MKIII Port Stanley, ON - Original Message - From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List To: cnc-list Cnc-List Cc: Edd Schillay Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 18:07 Subject: Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start Listers, I find I'm having a harder time getting the engine started and seeing a little bit of darker smoke when it does turn over, as compared to last season. Once running, everything seems fine -- temperature, water flow, revolutions, etc. Any ideas or suggestions? Usually, my solution to engine problems is get the jib out. All the best, Edd --- Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise NCC-1701-B CC 37+ | City Island, NY www.StarshipSailing.com --- 914.332.4400 | Office 914.774.9767 | Mobile --- Sent via iPhone 6 iPhone. iTypos. iApologize -- ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start
What does bad lubrication oil look like? sam:-)From: S Thomas via CnC-ListSent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 5:01 PMTo: cnc-list@cnc-list.comReply To: cnc-list@cnc-list.comCc: S ThomasSubject: Re: Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start If it is cranking at the usual speed, then the compression might be off a bit in one of the cylinders. This can happen if one of the piston rings has got stuck over the winter. I would warm up the engine good and hot and then take for a run.Run it fairly hard for a couple of hours so long as everything appears to be ok. That should get the carbon out, if there is any, and it might loosen up a seized ring. Black smoke is a sign of a rich mix, but it means little if you have just started the engine after a period of cranking it for a while. If you did not change the oil last fall, then now is the time to change it. I don't know why, but I have found that lubricating oil sitting for a while in diesel engines is more likely to go bad than in gasoline engines.Maybe it isclimate dependent, but that has been my experience limited thoughthat may be. Steve Thomas CC27 MKIII Port Stanley, ON - Original Message - From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List To: cnc-list Cnc-List Cc: Edd Schillay Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 18:07 Subject: Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start Listers, I find I'm having a harder time getting the engine started and seeing a little bit of darker smoke when it does turn over, as compared to last season. Once running, everything seems fine -- temperature, water flow, revolutions, etc. Any ideas or suggestions? Usually, my solution to engine problems is "get the jib out." All the best, Edd --- Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise NCC-1701-B CC 37+ | City Island, NY www.StarshipSailing.com --- 914.332.4400 | Office 914.774.9767 | Mobile --- Sent via iPhone 6 iPhone. iTypos. iApologize ___Email address:CnC-List@cnc-list.comTo change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at:http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Starting problems
Thanks to everyone who offered advice and expertise re my starting problem. It turned out to be a loose ground wire at the engine. I needn't have installed a new ignition switch, but now I have a spare. And I've learned a couple of valuable lessons. Lesson number one is: Ask first. Temperature for tomorrow is predicted to be mid-20s here. That's about 300 Kelvin, I think. A good day to slalom among the lobster buoys in St George's Bay. -- Derek Kennedy Tortuga, CC30 mk1 Ballantyne's Cove, NS ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start
It's black. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift CC 35 Mk III Victoria, BC On 24 May 2015 at 16:59, Sam Salter via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: What does bad lubrication oil look like? sam :-) *From: *S Thomas via CnC-List *Sent: *Sunday, May 24, 2015 5:01 PM *To: *cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Reply To: *cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Cc: *S Thomas *Subject: *Re: Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start If it is cranking at the usual speed, then the compression might be off a bit in one of the cylinders. This can happen if one of the piston rings has got stuck over the winter. I would warm up the engine good and hot and then take for a run. Run it fairly hard for a couple of hours so long as everything appears to be ok. That should get the carbon out, if there is any, and it might loosen up a seized ring. Black smoke is a sign of a rich mix, but it means little if you have just started the engine after a period of cranking it for a while. If you did not change the oil last fall, then now is the time to change it. I don't know why, but I have found that lubricating oil sitting for a while in diesel engines is more likely to go bad than in gasoline engines. Maybe it is climate dependent, but that has been my experience limited though that may be. Steve Thomas CC27 MKIII Port Stanley, ON - Original Message - *From:* Edd Schillay via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com *To:* cnc-list Cnc-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Cc:* Edd Schillay e...@schillay.com *Sent:* Sunday, May 24, 2015 18:07 *Subject:* Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start Listers, I find I'm having a harder time getting the engine started and seeing a little bit of darker smoke when it does turn over, as compared to last season. Once running, everything seems fine -- temperature, water flow, revolutions, etc. Any ideas or suggestions? Usually, my solution to engine problems is get the jib out. All the best, Edd --- Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise NCC-1701-B CC 37+ | City Island, NY www.StarshipSailing.com --- 914.332.4400 | Office 914.774.9767 | Mobile --- Sent via iPhone 6 iPhone. iTypos. iApologize -- ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Starting problems
Congrats on the easy fix! Chuck B CC 34 Elusive Somerset, MA On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Derek Kennedy via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Thanks to everyone who offered advice and expertise re my starting problem. It turned out to be a loose ground wire at the engine. I needn't have installed a new ignition switch, but now I have a spare. And I've learned a couple of valuable lessons. Lesson number one is: Ask first. Temperature for tomorrow is predicted to be mid-20s here. That's about 300 Kelvin, I think. A good day to slalom among the lobster buoys in St George's Bay. -- Derek Kennedy Tortuga, CC30 mk1 Ballantyne's Cove, NS ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start
Diesel engine oil is supposed to look black - it's like that a half hour after you start the engine - by design. sam:-)From: Jim Watts via CnC-ListSent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 6:48 PMTo: 1 CnC ListReply To: cnc-list@cnc-list.comCc: Jim WattsSubject: Re: Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to StartIt's black. Jim WattsParadigm ShiftCC 35 Mk IIIVictoria, BC On 24 May 2015 at 16:59, Sam Salter via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: What does bad lubrication oil look like? sam:-)From: S Thomas via CnC-ListSent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 5:01 PMTo: cnc-list@cnc-list.comReply To: cnc-list@cnc-list.comCc: S ThomasSubject: Re: Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start If it is cranking at the usual speed, then the compression might be off a bit in one of the cylinders. This can happen if one of the piston rings has got stuck over the winter. I would warm up the engine good and hot and then take for a run.Run it fairly hard for a couple of hours so long as everything appears to be ok. That should get the carbon out, if there is any, and it might loosen up a seized ring. Black smoke is a sign of a rich mix, but it means little if you have just started the engine after a period of cranking it for a while. If you did not change the oil last fall, then now is the time to change it. I don't know why, but I have found that lubricating oil sitting for a while in diesel engines is more likely to go bad than in gasoline engines.Maybe it isclimate dependent, but that has been my experience limited thoughthat may be. Steve Thomas CC27 MKIII Port Stanley, ON - Original Message - From: Edd Schillay via CnC-List To: cnc-list Cnc-List Cc: Edd Schillay Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 18:07 Subject: Stus-List Darker Smoke, Harder to Start Listers, I find I'm having a harder time getting the engine started and seeing a little bit of darker smoke when it does turn over, as compared to last season. Once running, everything seems fine -- temperature, water flow, revolutions, etc. Any ideas or suggestions? Usually, my solution to engine problems is "get the jib out." All the best, Edd --- Edd M. Schillay Starship Enterprise NCC-1701-B CC 37+ | City Island, NY www.StarshipSailing.com --- 914.332.4400 | Office 914.774.9767 | Mobile --- Sent via iPhone 6 iPhone. iTypos. iApologize ___Email address:CnC-List@cnc-list.comTo change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at:http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List Antifreeze Mystery
John: Thank you both good tips...your first one could be the culprit but your second one could also be the culprit.the antifreeze (Preston) is approx. 8 years oldI will flush and replace it before Fall layup and see what happens. As I said earlier, it does not happen after launch and before hauljust during the cold of winter. A few years back, one of the engine block antifreeze drain valves came loose during the sailing motoring season which was noticed when antifreeze entered the bilgea little stress until the loose valve was detected. Some times we get lucky! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. On 2015-05-24 3:33 PM, John Russo via CnC-List wrote: Check to insure your engine block drain valves are tight before winter storage. Second thought is weird but offered anyhow. Is antifreeze fresh? Could there be a blockage somewhere where the antifreeze is diluted and freezes which would expand and force the top stuff out somehow. I said it was a weird thought! I will discuss it with the mechanic at the yard who is pretty sharp and seen most things. John CC 32 Arpeggio -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of robert via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 11:25 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: robert Subject: Stus-List Antifreeze Mystery After the engine is winterized in the Fall, I place a plastic pan under it.not sure why but I do. Every Spring, there is approximately a half a cup or 250 ml of antifreeze in the pan. I have looked everywhere for the source of this antifreeze but I can't find out where it is coming from. The boat was launched 3 weeks ago, the engine has about 3 hours on it since then, the pan is still under the engine but there is no antifreeze in it. And the antifreeze does not appear during the sailing season. I notice every Spring the level of the antifreeze in the 'overflow container' is down a bit and I refill to the 'FULL LEVEL' but that container is not leaking. It's a mystery! Anybody experience this and/or have any ideas where this antifreeze could be originating from? Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Antifreeze Mystery
Interesting problem. I have a small John Deere tractor with a 23 hp Yanmar engine. When the temperature is hovering lower than minus 15c a small amount of antifreeze leeks out onto the garage floor. I've always wondered why. There's little change in the overall volume of the cooling system and all summer long there's no issue. Maybe a Yanmar thing. Brent 27-5 Lake Winnipeg. Sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2015, at 8:24 PM, robert via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: John: Thank you both good tips...your first one could be the culprit but your second one could also be the culprit.the antifreeze (Preston) is approx. 8 years oldI will flush and replace it before Fall layup and see what happens. As I said earlier, it does not happen after launch and before hauljust during the cold of winter. A few years back, one of the engine block antifreeze drain valves came loose during the sailing motoring season which was noticed when antifreeze entered the bilgea little stress until the loose valve was detected. Some times we get lucky! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. On 2015-05-24 3:33 PM, John Russo via CnC-List wrote: Check to insure your engine block drain valves are tight before winter storage. Second thought is weird but offered anyhow. Is antifreeze fresh? Could there be a blockage somewhere where the antifreeze is diluted and freezes which would expand and force the top stuff out somehow. I said it was a weird thought! I will discuss it with the mechanic at the yard who is pretty sharp and seen most things. John CC 32 Arpeggio -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of robert via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 11:25 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: robert Subject: Stus-List Antifreeze Mystery After the engine is winterized in the Fall, I place a plastic pan under it.not sure why but I do. Every Spring, there is approximately a half a cup or 250 ml of antifreeze in the pan. I have looked everywhere for the source of this antifreeze but I can't find out where it is coming from. The boat was launched 3 weeks ago, the engine has about 3 hours on it since then, the pan is still under the engine but there is no antifreeze in it. And the antifreeze does not appear during the sailing season. I notice every Spring the level of the antifreeze in the 'overflow container' is down a bit and I refill to the 'FULL LEVEL' but that container is not leaking. It's a mystery! Anybody experience this and/or have any ideas where this antifreeze could be originating from? Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
