Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

If you have the mechanical style fuel pump you may be able to use it for 
troubleshooting.
The pump has a mechanical primer in the form of a wire bail that goes around 
outside of
the body. Part way down here is a picture of the pump:

https://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410

There is a bail that holds the fuel cup on, and a second smaller one you can 
see in the left
picture around the lower part of the pump.

If there is fuel available then after levering it out a couple of times it will 
fill the carburetor
and tend to stay out. If you can prime the pump a dozen times then either there 
is no fuel,
there is a problem with the lines or maybe the carb is getting flooded.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C&C 30-1
 


From: Randy Stafford  
 
Update on this - went down to the boat today, pulled plugs, changed oil.  No 
sign whatsoever of water in the engine.  Then on testing, she started right up, 
ran smoothly at idle for several minutes, then shut down suddenly.  And 
wouldn?t restart after a few short cranking attempts (with raw water intake 
closed).  From that I was relieved that the starter and solenoid and starter 
circuit were working, and the ignition circuits. 
 
Per Occam?s Razor I removed and inspected the fuel petcock, as it?s been 
troublesome this year (it became increasingly difficult to turn, then suddenly 
easier to turn, hmmm?).  I believe it to be the culprit.  It was stuck in what 
appeared to be a closed position, and turning its handle didn?t change that.  I 
suspect it may have been just open enough to allow the fuel line to fill, given 
enough time.  But once the engine consumed the fuel in the line, it wasn?t open 
enough to keep supplying the engine. 
 
I bought a new fuel shut-off valve from West Marine and will install it 
tomorrow and report back.  As for my starter not working Sunday when I pushed 
the button, I?ll let that remain a mystery unless it happens again.  Maybe I 
didn?t have the ignition switch pulled out far enough when I pressed the 
button. 
 
Cheers, 
Randy 
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out

[Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List]

Good point Michael, and it is a very easy job, as the mechanical pumps also 
fill a cup that is designed to retain a strainer.  So, immediately after the 
engine dies, one can go down and ease off the thumb screw and check for fuel in 
the bowl.  If there is an electric pump, one could remove the main jet or 
bottom bowl of the carb and check for fuel there.  Probably easier would be to 
simply remove the fuel line at the carb and see how much fuel is in the line.  
I like the idea of replacing the rubber fuel line out of pure proactive 
maintenance, however. 

I still suspect an ignition problem more than a fuel blockage.  The way to know 
is *how* the engine shuts off.  If it sputters to a stop, it's generally fuel.  
Chug-chug-chug...  

If it simply goes from running to stopped, the its likely electrical, i.e., a 
condenser or coil going bad.  And, once it stops and won't restart, pulling a 
plug, connecting it to a spark plug wire and grounding the plug while cranking 
the engine will tell you if you have spark or not.
Good luck! 
 Bruce Whitmore

(847) 404-5092 (mobile)
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net


  From: Michael Brown via CnC-List 
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Michael Brown 
 Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 9:04 AM
 Subject: Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out
   
If you have the mechanical style fuel pump you may be able to use it for 
troubleshooting.
The pump has a mechanical primer in the form of a wire bail that goes around 
outside of
the body. Part way down here is a picture of the pump:

https://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410

There is a bail that holds the fuel cup on, and a second smaller one you can 
see in the left
picture around the lower part of the pump.

If there is fuel available then after levering it out a couple of times it will 
fill the carburetor
and tend to stay out. If you can prime the pump a dozen times then either there 
is no fuel,
there is a problem with the lines or maybe the carb is getting flooded.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C&C 30-1
 


From: Randy Stafford 

Update on this - went down to the boat today, pulled plugs, changed oil.  No 
sign whatsoever of water in the engine.  Then on testing, she started right up, 
ran smoothly at idle for several minutes, then shut down suddenly.  And 
wouldn?t restart after a few short cranking attempts (with raw water intake 
closed).  From that I was relieved that the starter and solenoid and starter 
circuit were working, and the ignition circuits.

Per Occam?s Razor I removed and inspected the fuel petcock, as it?s been 
troublesome this year (it became increasingly difficult to turn, then suddenly 
easier to turn, hmmm?).  I believe it to be the culprit.  It was stuck in what 
appeared to be a closed position, and turning its handle didn?t change that.  I 
suspect it may have been just open enough to allow the fuel line to fill, given 
enough time.  But once the engine consumed the fuel in the line, it wasn?t open 
enough to keep supplying the engine.

I bought a new fuel shut-off valve from West Marine and will install it 
tomorrow and report back.  As for my starter not working Sunday when I pushed 
the button, I?ll let that remain a mystery unless it happens again.  Maybe I 
didn?t have the ignition switch pulled out far enough when I pressed the button.

Cheers,
Randy

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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   ___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

C&C smile.  This is common where the lead keel meets the fiberglass keel
stub.  First order of business is to torque/check of the keel bolts.  This
is done on the hard.  Then check for water ingress in the water.  From the
pictures it looks like someone else already did some fill work.

Worst case scenario you'll have to drop the keel and re-bed.

Second to worst case is that you'll use some type of epoxy and filler and
fiberglass to patch a bandaid around the crack.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD
___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Hi Lisle,

I couldn’t confirm by looking at the third picture (of the keel) in the 
YachtWorld listing, but I suspect that is the seam between the actual lead keel 
and the fiberglass keel stub that is part of the hull.  The keel bolts to the 
hull at that keel stub.  That seam looks pretty darn good to me.  Google “C&C 
smile” and you’ll see worse seams, for example here’s a DIY article on fixing 
one: http://cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/smile/index.htm 
.

If you’re not already considering this, I might recommend you hire a reputable 
professional marine surveyor to survey the boat.  It might cost you $1000, but 
that will buy you peace of mind.  The survey would hopefully identify any 
deal-breaking issues with the boat, or else give you reassurance that you’re 
buying a sound boat.  If you buy the boat, the survey might give you an initial 
list of things that need attention, and a good survey report is generally 
valuable to have if you ever go to sell the boat.  In fact you should ask the 
seller to see any previous survey reports.

That is a good-looking boat.  I love the interior - it makes my 1972 C&C 30 MK 
I look quite spartan in comparison.

Cheers,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C&C 30-1 #7
Ken Caryl, CO

> On Sep 21, 2017, at 5:37 PM, Lisle Kingery, PhD via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> More questions from an aspiring C&C owner. :)
> 
> I'm considering this 1987 C&C 30mkii and overall it looks interesting. 
> 
> http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/C%26C-30-3079275/Rochester/NY/United-States#.WcRLTWiPJPY
>  
> 
> 
> I'm stuck with a draft of 5 or under where I'll be keeping the eventual 
> sailboat I get and this is the only wing keel version I see available at 
> least reasonably nearby. 
> 
> I have a question about what appears to be at least a surface crack along the 
> middle of the keel that goes pretty much the entire length of the keel. 
> 
> I've pasted the picture into the email below but not sure if that is going to 
> show up on the listserv. 
> 
> If not, if anyone familiar with this model in particular could let me know if 
> you could take a quick look at the picture and provide an opinion on normal 
> vs. abnormal I could email pics. Thanks for your consideration.
> 
> Lisle
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

[John Irvin via CnC-List]

I believe that the secret to a successful smile repair is to use a filling 
compound which flexes. The keel flexes under sail and hard fillers eventually 
crack, have to be routed out. Firefly (27-111) uses marine goop successfully in 
fresh water.
Good luck!

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List
Sent: September 22, 2017 10:15 AM
To: C&C List
Cc: Josh Muckley
Subject: Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

C&C smile.  This is common where the lead keel meets the fiberglass keel stub.  
First order of business is to torque/check of the keel bolts.  This is done on 
the hard.  Then check for water ingress in the water.  From the pictures it 
looks like someone else already did some fill work.

Worst case scenario you'll have to drop the keel and re-bed.

Second to worst case is that you'll use some type of epoxy and filler and 
fiberglass to patch a bandaid around the crack.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD

___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

[Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List]

Hi Josh,
Quick question which I've wrestled with in my mind - Why torque the keel bolts 
on the hard?  Since the keel will spend most of its time hanging from the 
bottom of the boat in the water, isn't it better to torque the bolts in the 
specific situation where the stresses will be applied?
Thanks for the insights, Bruce Whitmore

(847) 404-5092 (mobile)
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net


  From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
 To: C&C List  
Cc: Josh Muckley 
 Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 10:15 AM
 Subject: Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel
   
C&C smile.  This is common where the lead keel meets the fiberglass keel stub.  
First order of business is to torque/check of the keel bolts.  This is done on 
the hard.  Then check for water ingress in the water.  From the pictures it 
looks like someone else already did some fill work.
Worst case scenario you'll have to drop the keel and re-bed.
Second to worst case is that you'll use some type of epoxy and filler and 
fiberglass to patch a bandaid around the crack.
Josh MuckleyS/V Sea Hawk1989 C&C 37+Solomons, 
MD___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


   ___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

Randy, compared to that, our Mk 1s ARE spartan.But I still love it!RonWild 
CheriC&C 30-1STL


  From: Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Randy Stafford ; "Lisle Kingery, PhD" 

 Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 9:22 AM
 Subject: Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel
   
Hi Lisle,
I couldn’t confirm by looking at the third picture (of the keel) in the 
YachtWorld listing, but I suspect that is the seam between the actual lead keel 
and the fiberglass keel stub that is part of the hull.  The keel bolts to the 
hull at that keel stub.  That seam looks pretty darn good to me.  Google “C&C 
smile” and you’ll see worse seams, for example here’s a DIY article on fixing 
one: http://cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/smile/index.htm.
If you’re not already considering this, I might recommend you hire a reputable 
professional marine surveyor to survey the boat.  It might cost you $1000, but 
that will buy you peace of mind.  The survey would hopefully identify any 
deal-breaking issues with the boat, or else give you reassurance that you’re 
buying a sound boat.  If you buy the boat, the survey might give you an initial 
list of things that need attention, and a good survey report is generally 
valuable to have if you ever go to sell the boat.  In fact you should ask the 
seller to see any previous survey reports.
That is a good-looking boat.  I love the interior - it makes my 1972 C&C 30 MK 
I look quite spartan in comparison.
Cheers,Randy StaffordS/V GrenadineC&C 30-1 #7Ken Caryl, CO

On Sep 21, 2017, at 5:37 PM, Lisle Kingery, PhD via CnC-List 
 wrote:
Hi all,
More questions from an aspiring C&C owner. :)
I'm considering this 1987 C&C 30mkii and overall it looks interesting. 
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/C%26C-30-3079275/Rochester/NY/United-States#.WcRLTWiPJPY

I'm stuck with a draft of 5 or under where I'll be keeping the eventual 
sailboat I get and this is the only wing keel version I see available at least 
reasonably nearby. 
I have a question about what appears to be at least a surface crack along the 
middle of the keel that goes pretty much the entire length of the keel. 
I've pasted the picture into the email below but not sure if that is going to 
show up on the listserv. 
If not, if anyone familiar with this model in particular could let me know if 
you could take a quick look at the picture and provide an opinion on normal vs. 
abnormal I could email pics. Thanks for your consideration.
Lisle

___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


   ___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

[bushmark4--- via CnC-List]

 Lisle, you better buy that boat quickly, it won't be on the market long.

 


Richard
s/v Bushmark4; 1085 C&C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 584.4


Richard N. Bush 
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 
502-584-7255

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List 
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Ronald B. Frerker 
Sent: Fri, Sep 22, 2017 12:04 pm
Subject: Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel



Randy, compared to that, our Mk 1s ARE spartan.
But I still love it!
Ron
Wild Cheri
C&C 30-1
STL





  
 
 
  
 From: Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Randy Stafford ; "Lisle Kingery, PhD" 

 Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 9:22 AM
 Subject: Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel
  
 


Hi Lisle,


I couldn’t confirm by looking at the third picture (of the keel) in the 
YachtWorld listing, but I suspect that is the seam between the actual lead keel 
and the fiberglass keel stub that is part of the hull.  The keel bolts to the 
hull at that keel stub.  That seam looks pretty darn good to me.  Google “C&C 
smile” and you’ll see worse seams, for example here’s a DIY article on fixing 
one: http://cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/smile/index.htm.


If you’re not already considering this, I might recommend you hire a reputable 
professional marine surveyor to survey the boat.  It might cost you $1000, but 
that will buy you peace of mind.  The survey would hopefully identify any 
deal-breaking issues with the boat, or else give you reassurance that you’re 
buying a sound boat.  If you buy the boat, the survey might give you an initial 
list of things that need attention, and a good survey report is generally 
valuable to have if you ever go to sell the boat.  In fact you should ask the 
seller to see any previous survey reports.


That is a good-looking boat.  I love the interior - it makes my 1972 C&C 30 MK 
I look quite spartan in comparison.


Cheers,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C&C 30-1 #7
Ken Caryl, CO



On Sep 21, 2017, at 5:37 PM, Lisle Kingery, PhD via CnC-List 
 wrote:


Hi all,


More questions from an aspiring C&C owner. :)


I'm considering this 1987 C&C 30mkii and overall it looks interesting. 


http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/C%26C-30-3079275/Rochester/NY/United-States#.WcRLTWiPJPY



I'm stuck with a draft of 5 or under where I'll be keeping the eventual 
sailboat I get and this is the only wing keel version I see available at least 
reasonably nearby. 


I have a question about what appears to be at least a surface crack along the 
middle of the keel that goes pretty much the entire length of the keel. 


I've pasted the picture into the email below but not sure if that is going to 
show up on the listserv. 


If not, if anyone familiar with this model in particular could let me know if 
you could take a quick look at the picture and provide an opinion on normal vs. 
abnormal I could email pics. Thanks for your consideration.


Lisle











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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

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Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Lisle;

 

As others have said, you appear to be looking at the C&C Smile. That is a crack 
in the bottom paint or fairing compound covering the joint where the top of the 
lead keel meets the bottom of the fiberglass keel stub. As these things go, 
yours appears to be pretty minor. On older boats with a swept back keel, I’ve 
seen gaps at the leading edge of the joint of a quarter inch or so.

 

The probable cause is that the tension on the keel bolts is too low. When the 
boat was built, a sealing compound was put between the top of the keel and the 
bottom of the hull, and the bolts were torqued tight. As the boat heels when 
sailing, the keel flexes slightly to the side, and the bolts tend to lose 
torque over time. That leads to the crack – the C&C Smile – in the hard paint 
or fairing compound covering the joint. On older boats with the swept back 
keel, the crack can be accentuated if the boat is blocked at the back of the 
keel, or with too much of the boat’s weight supported to far back. Some of the 
listers have indicated damage to the keel stub from hard groundings, but I 
don’t see any real evidence of that in your photos.

 

The condition can be cosmetic, or a real problem. Probably cosmetic in well 
over 90% of the time. You can tell if it is a real problem if you put the boat 
in the water and water leaks into the bilge from the joint.

 

The solution is to torque the bolts properly, and retorque them periodically. 
My 38 had a fairly large smile when I bought her in 2003. The bolts got 
retorqued when I had some keel work done in 2004. Again in about 2009, when we 
also opened up a small groove along the smile, put 5200 sealer in the groove, 
faired the joint, and applied a layer of glass cloth from the leading edge of 
the joint to about 2 feet back  to address the cosmetic issues. No smile when 
the bottom was painted in 2013. A slight crack was evident last winter when I 
painted the bottom, and a little water seeped out of the 5200 sealer – so I 
retorqued the bolts again (it had been 8 years after all) and applied another 
layer of glass before the bottom paint. 

 

If you find you have a water leak – which I suspect is not likely given the 
appearance of the smile, the fix is to drop the keel, apply 5200 as a new layer 
of sealer, and torque the bolts properly. That stops the leak, but won’t stop 
the smile (5200, after all, is flexible and that is what causes the smile). 
Fairing and a fiberglass band over the joint will eliminate the cosmetic issues 
so long as you retorque the bolts every few years into the future.

 

As others have said, get a good survey. You are already paying a relatively 
high price for  late 80s boat, and I really doubt that putting another $5000 or 
more into rebidding the keel would be a desirable activity.

 

Bruce;

 

The reason that torqueing the bolts while on the hard is preferable to doing it 
in the water might be that, when in the water, a goodly portion of the effort 
is directed at supporting the weight of the keel instead of applying force to 
the seal. On the hard, with the weight of the boat holding the keel tightly to 
the stub, you would tend to get a tighter seal and more tension on the bolts, 
which should slow down the inevitable loosening of the bolts as the keel moves 
around while sailing – and thus require less frequent torqueing or reduce the 
development of the next smile.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bruce 
Whitmore via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 11:54 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Bruce Whitmore 
Subject: Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

 

Hi Josh,

 

Quick question which I've wrestled with in my mind - Why torque the keel bolts 
on the hard?  Since the keel will spend most of its time hanging from the 
bottom of the boat in the water, isn't it better to torque the bolts in the 
specific situation where the stresses will be applied?

 

Thanks for the insights,

 

Bruce Whitmore

(847) 404-5092 (mobile)
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net  

 

 

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

[Neil Gallagher via CnC-List]

Keel bolts should be torqued with the boat on the hard.  It's like any 
other bolted connection, you want to tighten it before you put the load 
on the connection so that you pretension the bolts and compress the 
joint.  For a boat, that's before the weight of the keel is hanging on 
the bolts.


Neil Gallagher
Weatherly 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

On 9/22/2017 11:53 AM, Bruce Whitmore via CnC-List wrote:

Hi Josh,

Quick question which I've wrestled with in my mind - Why torque the 
keel bolts on the hard?  Since the keel will spend most of its time 
hanging from the bottom of the boat in the water, isn't it better to 
torque the bolts in the specific situation where the stresses will be 
applied?


Thanks for the insights,
Bruce Whitmore

(847) 404-5092 (mobile)
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net



*From:* Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
*To:* C&C List 
*Cc:* Josh Muckley 
*Sent:* Friday, September 22, 2017 10:15 AM
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

C&C smile.  This is common where the lead keel meets the fiberglass 
keel stub.  First order of business is to torque/check of the keel 
bolts.  This is done on the hard.  Then check for water ingress in the 
water.  From the pictures it looks like someone else already did some 
fill work.


Worst case scenario you'll have to drop the keel and re-bed.

Second to worst case is that you'll use some type of epoxy and filler 
and fiberglass to patch a bandaid around the crack.


Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD
___

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you wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray


All Contributions are greatly appreciated!




___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

[David Miles via CnC-List]

Great explanation.
What is the correct torque to apply?
Thx.
David
C&C30MK2 Impulse


On September 22, 2017 11:23:45 AM Rick Brass via CnC-List 
 wrote:



Lisle;



As others have said, you appear to be looking at the C&C Smile. That is a 
crack in the bottom paint or fairing compound covering the joint where the 
top of the lead keel meets the bottom of the fiberglass keel stub. As these 
things go, yours appears to be pretty minor. On older boats with a swept 
back keel, I’ve seen gaps at the leading edge of the joint of a quarter 
inch or so.




The probable cause is that the tension on the keel bolts is too low. When 
the boat was built, a sealing compound was put between the top of the keel 
and the bottom of the hull, and the bolts were torqued tight. As the boat 
heels when sailing, the keel flexes slightly to the side, and the bolts 
tend to lose torque over time. That leads to the crack – the C&C Smile – in 
the hard paint or fairing compound covering the joint. On older boats with 
the swept back keel, the crack can be accentuated if the boat is blocked at 
the back of the keel, or with too much of the boat’s weight supported to 
far back. Some of the listers have indicated damage to the keel stub from 
hard groundings, but I don’t see any real evidence of that in your photos.




The condition can be cosmetic, or a real problem. Probably cosmetic in well 
over 90% of the time. You can tell if it is a real problem if you put the 
boat in the water and water leaks into the bilge from the joint.




The solution is to torque the bolts properly, and retorque them 
periodically. My 38 had a fairly large smile when I bought her in 2003. The 
bolts got retorqued when I had some keel work done in 2004. Again in about 
2009, when we also opened up a small groove along the smile, put 5200 
sealer in the groove, faired the joint, and applied a layer of glass cloth 
from the leading edge of the joint to about 2 feet back  to address the 
cosmetic issues. No smile when the bottom was painted in 2013. A slight 
crack was evident last winter when I painted the bottom, and a little water 
seeped out of the 5200 sealer – so I retorqued the bolts again (it had been 
8 years after all) and applied another layer of glass before the bottom paint.




If you find you have a water leak – which I suspect is not likely given the 
appearance of the smile, the fix is to drop the keel, apply 5200 as a new 
layer of sealer, and torque the bolts properly. That stops the leak, but 
won’t stop the smile (5200, after all, is flexible and that is what causes 
the smile). Fairing and a fiberglass band over the joint will eliminate the 
cosmetic issues so long as you retorque the bolts every few years into the 
future.




As others have said, get a good survey. You are already paying a relatively 
high price for  late 80s boat, and I really doubt that putting another 
$5000 or more into rebidding the keel would be a desirable activity.




Bruce;



The reason that torqueing the bolts while on the hard is preferable to 
doing it in the water might be that, when in the water, a goodly portion of 
the effort is directed at supporting the weight of the keel instead of 
applying force to the seal. On the hard, with the weight of the boat 
holding the keel tightly to the stub, you would tend to get a tighter seal 
and more tension on the bolts, which should slow down the inevitable 
loosening of the bolts as the keel moves around while sailing – and thus 
require less frequent torqueing or reduce the development of the next smile.




Rick Brass

Washington, NC







From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bruce 
Whitmore via CnC-List

Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 11:54 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Bruce Whitmore 
Subject: Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel



Hi Josh,



Quick question which I've wrestled with in my mind - Why torque the keel 
bolts on the hard?  Since the keel will spend most of its time hanging from 
the bottom of the boat in the water, isn't it better to torque the bolts in 
the specific situation where the stresses will be applied?




Thanks for the insights,



Bruce Whitmore

(847) 404-5092 (mobile)
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net 








--
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Stus-List boat insurance for Liveaboards

[Dan via CnC-List]

So as some of you may know I live aboard Breakaweigh full time here in
Canada. It's still new to me and I've been working out boat insurance and
weighing options. My current insurance is with Intact insurance and is
roughly $600 canadian dollars a year however when the topic of winter
liveaboard came up they decided to not cover me whatsoever and I've had to
look elsewhere. My local broker found me some insurance through "Yachtline
Insurance" in the UK which has amazing coverage for all seasons including
named storms, however it is very pricey at $2200 canadian per year. Does
this sound reasonable or should I be looking elsewhere?

Thanks guys,

Dan
Breakaweigh
C&C 44, 1986
Halifax, NS
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Stus-List where to begin.

[Bev Parslow via CnC-List]

The starting battery is showing a little over twelve volts but at the starter 
motor it is down to just over seven. As a result the engine will not turn over 
but starts easily on the house system. Somewhere we are loosing five volts. For 
a Luddite can anyone explain where we start to find the problem? Please use 
simple terms as I did not do well in science.___

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Re: Stus-List where to begin.

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Bad connection.

That’s as simple as I can make it…   :^)

Check ground wiring at the engine and battery for loose or corroded terminals 
and wire; check starter wiring connections for loose or corroded terminals and 
wire.  Same for the start button on the control panel.

— Fred


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Bev Parslow via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> The starting battery is showing a little over twelve volts but at the starter 
> motor it is down to just over seven. As a result the engine will not turn 
> over but starts easily on the house system. Somewhere we are loosing five 
> volts. For a Luddite can anyone explain where we start to find the problem? 
> Please use simple terms as I did not do well in science.

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Re: Stus-List where to begin.

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

One other thing — if the battery is just over 12 volts, it may be time to 
replace it.  A fully-charged wet cell battery should be at about 12.8 volts.  
And if your voltage at the starter is down to seven volts when trying to start, 
that say the battery is ready for replacement.

— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 2:06 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Bad connection.
> 
> That’s as simple as I can make it…   :^)
> 
> Check ground wiring at the engine and battery for loose or corroded terminals 
> and wire; check starter wiring connections for loose or corroded terminals 
> and wire.  Same for the start button on the control panel.
> 
> — Fred
> 
> 
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
> 
>> On Sep 22, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Bev Parslow via CnC-List > > wrote:
>> 
>> The starting battery is showing a little over twelve volts but at the 
>> starter motor it is down to just over seven. As a result the engine will not 
>> turn over but starts easily on the house system. Somewhere we are loosing 
>> five volts. For a Luddite can anyone explain where we start to find the 
>> problem? Please use simple terms as I did not do well in science.
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Re: Stus-List where to begin.

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

What he said…

My first thing to check would be the connections on the battery terminals (both 
of them, + and -). You can easily drop 5 V if they are even slightly corroded 
or not attached correctly (do you have wing nuts there?)

Marek

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G 
Street via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 15:07
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Frederick G Street 
Subject: Re: Stus-List where to begin.

Bad connection.

That’s as simple as I can make it…   :^)

Check ground wiring at the engine and battery for loose or corroded terminals 
and wire; check starter wiring connections for loose or corroded terminals and 
wire.  Same for the start button on the control panel.

— Fred


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

On Sep 22, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Bev Parslow via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

The starting battery is showing a little over twelve volts but at the starter 
motor it is down to just over seven. As a result the engine will not turn over 
but starts easily on the house system. Somewhere we are loosing five volts. For 
a Luddite can anyone explain where we start to find the problem? Please use 
simple terms as I did not do well in science.

___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List boat insurance for Liveaboards

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

I have no clue about liveaboard. I have a very good experience with the 
“Skipper Plan” it is underwritten by Aviva. I deal with a broker in the GTA 
(even though I am in Ottawa). You can always give them a call e.g. Petra Fisher 
at 647-725-9799 or the 1-800-661-7211.

No association other than a client (for almost 15 years).

Marek

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dan via 
CnC-List
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 14:55
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dan 
Subject: Stus-List boat insurance for Liveaboards

So as some of you may know I live aboard Breakaweigh full time here in Canada. 
It's still new to me and I've been working out boat insurance and weighing 
options. My current insurance is with Intact insurance and is roughly $600 
canadian dollars a year however when the topic of winter liveaboard came up 
they decided to not cover me whatsoever and I've had to look elsewhere. My 
local broker found me some insurance through "Yachtline Insurance" in the UK 
which has amazing coverage for all seasons including named storms, however it 
is very pricey at $2200 canadian per year. Does this sound reasonable or should 
I be looking elsewhere?

Thanks guys,

Dan
Breakaweigh
C&C 44, 1986
Halifax, NS
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Re: Stus-List boat insurance for Liveaboards

[svpegasus38 via CnC-List]

I live aboard in the Seattle area. I use Red Shield for insurance, it costs me 
about $800us a year. My agent is Annette at Taylor Thomason insurance in 
Seattle. Give her a call at 253-284-7900. Sorry I don't have a toll free 
number. 


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE DeviceDoug Mountjoy POYC Pegasus (for sale) Lf38 
Rebecca Leah LF39 
 Original message From: Dan via CnC-List 
 Date: 9/22/17  11:55  (GMT-08:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Dan  Subject: Stus-List boat 
insurance for Liveaboards 
So as some of you may know I live aboard Breakaweigh full time here in Canada. 
It's still new to me and I've been working out boat insurance and weighing 
options. My current insurance is with Intact insurance and is roughly $600 
canadian dollars a year however when the topic of winter liveaboard came up 
they decided to not cover me whatsoever and I've had to look elsewhere. My 
local broker found me some insurance through "Yachtline Insurance" in the UK 
which has amazing coverage for all seasons including named storms, however it 
is very pricey at $2200 canadian per year. Does this sound reasonable or should 
I be looking elsewhere?
Thanks guys,
DanBreakaweighC&C 44, 1986Halifax, NS
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Re: Stus-List Surveyor – Sarnia Ontario area

[John via CnC-List]

You can try Peter McGuire. He goes thru EVERYTHING, and knows C&C's

Contact:

Peter H McGuire SAMS AMS 
Fastnet Yacht Surveys Limited 
99 Farningham Crescent
Toronto, M9B 3B8
Ontario
(416) 239 5782 (o) / (416) 809 2186 (m)
http://www.marinesurveyor.com/fastnet


/J

> On Sep 1, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Sean Richardson  wrote:
> 
> I’m taking a run at another boat and may be in need of a reputable surveyor 
> in the Sarnia Ontario area. Any listers around there that know of a good 
> surveyor I can contact?
> 
>  
> 
> I haven’t seen the boat yet as it’s a good 7-8 hour drive from me and paying 
> a surveyor for a proper report and saving me a trip would be well worth it I 
> think.
> 
>  
> 
> Also looking for transport services within Ontario if anyone would like to 
> share their experiences and recommendations.
> 
>  
> 
> Sean
> 
> LYNX
> 
> C&C 27 MKIII
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Re: Stus-List where to begin.

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Do whichever is easier:

1) switch the batteries ( house and starting )
2) switch the battery cables, ie house positive and ground to the starting, 
starting positive and ground to house

If the selection of starting battery ( which is now the house battery ) starts 
the engine easily then the starting battery
needs to be checked.

If the selection of starting battery ( which is now the house battery ) does 
not start the engine and the connection
is seven volts then the wiring needs to be checked.

If both selections start the engine now you may have had a battery connection 
problem.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C&C 30-1


From: Bev Parslow  

 
The starting battery is showing a little over twelve volts but at the starter 
motor it is down to just over seven. As a result the engine will not turn over 
but starts easily on the house system. Somewhere we are loosing five volts. For 
a Luddite can anyone explain where we start to find the problem? Please use 
simple terms as I did not do well in science. 
___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List where to begin.

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

Bev,

When you say it starts easily on the house system, how exactly are you doing 
that? By combining at your battery switch? If that’s the case, there’s a 
connection issue between your engine battery and the switch — an issue that 
disappears when you combine. 

As Fred mentioned, low 12’s is very low for a battery bank and you should be 
thinking about replacing that. Should be more like 12.8 (or higher if you have 
a solar panel like I do). Fred Street knows his stuff. He has the "Street 
Smarts”.

That sounds like a second issue though — connections will probably explain that 
5V drop. 

Happy hunting. 

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY 
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 





> On Sep 22, 2017, at 3:00 PM, Bev Parslow via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> The starting battery is showing a little over twelve volts but at the starter 
> motor it is down to just over seven. As a result the engine will not turn 
> over but starts easily on the house system. Somewhere we are loosing five 
> volts. For a Luddite can anyone explain where we start to find the problem? 
> Please use simple terms as I did not do well in science.
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

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Stus-List MIT's C&C custom 43 X Dimension available for free

[Violeta M Ivanova via CnC-List]

Hi all,

MIT has decided to dispose of the 1973 C&C custom 43 X Dimension (or XD as
she is affectionately known). The boat is available for free - yes, free!
MIT Legal is preparing a no-cost transfer of title as we speak.

See below a copy of the email from the sailing master announcing the
decision to several mailing lists.

There will be a drawing for those interested to acquire the boat at 1800
next Thursday, October 28, at the MIT Sailing Pavilion in Cambridge, MA.
If you wish to own XD, either you or a friend/representative must be there
in person.

I hope XD finds a good new home, so I am posting on this list. What better
place to find a good owner for a C&C :)

There is information about the boat here:
http://sailing.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/X-Dimension_systems

XD needs a lot of TLC at present, but as far as I know all problems are
fixable. A recent survey found wet core and there is also a list of other
issues. I got a rough estimate from a boatyard in Maine for $35K to fix the
structural problems. How much the rest will cost depends on how much the
new owners could do themselves vs. paying someone else to do it.

The boat is currently in Southport, ME, in the facilities of Hodgdon Yacht
Serivces (or was there last time I heard). There is a plan in the works,
weather-dependent, to return her to Boston on the weekend of Sep 29-Oct 1
(i.e., after the drawing). The rudder (mentioned below) has been repaired.

Despite her problems, XD sailed beautifully every time I took her out
around Boston Harbor last year. I have not seen her at all this season,
because I have been mostly away from Boston / the east coast. I love that
boat and will miss her.

If you would like more information and/or are interested in acquiring the
boat, you can email or call the MIT sailing master - his contact is below.
Feel free to contact me with questions, too. I have a copy of the survey,
which I can email you, and some other useful information. However, I do not
know all details, so best to go through the powers that be at MIT.

Fair winds,

Violeta

--

857-366-1706

Violeta M Ivanova
C&C 43 X Dimension
(for a little bit longer)



Begin forwarded message:

*From: *Fran Charles 
*Subject: * *[bluewater-skippers] X-Dimension*
*Date: *September 13, 2017 at 3:08:34 PM EDT
*To: *Coastal Sailing at MIT , "
bluewater-skipp...@mit.edu" 

Greetings MIT Sailors,

After a recent structural survey in anticipation of lots of contracted
corrective work on our beloved X-D, it appears best to dispose of her.  The
balsa core is wet in many areas on the deck and in the transom area. The
rudder was whacked at some point this summer and we are having that
repaired right now in Maine. The boat is available immediately and I am
contacting other schools which might consider her for a donation. Yes,
that's right, she would be free to anyone who wants it.

If anyone is truly interested in having her, please write back to me
directly. I will be happy to share her survey with you and some quotations
which we have received for corrective surgery. However, this is going to be
a quick disposal. If necessary, she will be cut up.

Sad, sad news as so many have enjoyed her but she is unfit for our
university sailing program and must go.

Thanks in advance for your interest and we will soon be sailing again.

-Franny

-- 
Franny Charles
The Cucchiaro Family Sailing Master at MIT
The Northeast Harbor Fleet Manager

Mobile 857-221-0828 <%28857%29%20221-0828>

http://sailing.mit.edu/
http://www.nehfleet.org/

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Re: Stus-List Transmission ratio for LF38

[Anthony Mitchell via CnC-List]

Thanks for the replies and info.

Sorry, don't get on email much at the moment. Finally determined that the
existing 2.13:1 forward ratio appears to be correct. I found an old post
from Wal that had a prop calculator attached. Ran the specs, and the
gearbox ratio seems to check out for our 2 blade prop pitch and diameter. I
always thought the prop looked a bit small, and the owners manual shows and
18" prop with the 2.8:1 ratio - I guess at one stage they were spinning the
bigger prop a bit slower. We'll stick with the current setup - one step at
a time.

I managed to find a new gearbox in stock at Foley Engines (Dr Diesel) and
it's currently in transit to Fiji. There were also 3 available on eBay at
fredwarner1.net but he wasn't able to ship to Fiji. Quite a relief to get
one because the lead time from Australia was 17 weeks!

We are still in Fiji awaiting the gearbox before heading back to Australia
at the beginning of November. We have been in here for 3 years now with
summer storage in a cyclone pit at Vuda Marina. We got through Cyclone
Winston unscathed although very stressful at the time because we couldn't
get back here to baby sit.  My heart goes out to all those people who
weren't so lucky and are suffering in the Caribbean. It must seem
never-ending in that part of the world!

It will be good to get out there again after a long stint of work.

Tony Mitchell
SV Irish Melody,
1983 LF38 #150
Vuda, Fiji
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Re: Stus-List where to begin.

[bwhitmore via CnC-List]

Also pull & check the wires themselves.  We had ground wires corrode so badly 
they wouldn't carry voltage, much less serious amps.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 Date: 9/22/17  3:06 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Frederick G Street  Subject: Re: 
Stus-List where to begin. 
Bad connection.
That’s as simple as I can make it…   :^)
Check ground wiring at the engine and battery for loose or corroded terminals 
and wire; check starter wiring connections for loose or corroded terminals and 
wire.  Same for the start button on the control panel.
— Fred


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI


On Sep 22, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Bev Parslow via CnC-List  
wrote:
The starting battery is showing a little over twelve volts but at the starter 
motor it is down to just over seven. As a result the engine will not turn over 
but starts easily on the house system. Somewhere we are loosing five volts. For 
a Luddite can anyone explain where we start to find the problem? Please use 
simple terms as I did not do well in science.
___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List boat insurance for Liveaboards

[Rick Taillieu via CnC-List]

Try Dawn Marie at W.C.L. Bauld in Bedford, she handled my account when I had my 
25.

 

Dawn Marie Penney [dawn.ma...@wclbauld.com]

 

620 Nine Mile Drive, Unit 102, Bedford, NS B4A 0H4

ph: 902.832-6767  toll free ph: 877.925.2285

fax: 902.835.2604

 

 

Rick Taillieu

Cedar Island Yacht Club

Kingsville, Ontario

 

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dan via 
CnC-List
Sent: September-22-17 14:55
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dan
Subject: Stus-List boat insurance for Liveaboards

 

So as some of you may know I live aboard Breakaweigh full time here in Canada. 
It's still new to me and I've been working out boat insurance and weighing 
options. My current insurance is with Intact insurance and is roughly $600 
canadian dollars a year however when the topic of winter liveaboard came up 
they decided to not cover me whatsoever and I've had to look elsewhere. My 
local broker found me some insurance through "Yachtline Insurance" in the UK 
which has amazing coverage for all seasons including named storms, however it 
is very pricey at $2200 canadian per year. Does this sound reasonable or should 
I be looking elsewhere?

 

Thanks guys,

 

Dan

Breakaweigh

C&C 44, 1986

Halifax, NS

 


 

 

Virus-free.  

 www.avg.com 

 

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Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Torque specs are found here:

 http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/torquebolts/torquebolts.htm

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Sep 22, 2017 2:38 PM, "David Miles via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Great explanation.
> What is the correct torque to apply?
> Thx.
> David
> C&C30MK2 Impulse
>
> On September 22, 2017 11:23:45 AM Rick Brass via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Lisle;
>>
>>
>>
>> As others have said, you appear to be looking at the C&C Smile. That is a
>> crack in the bottom paint or fairing compound covering the joint where the
>> top of the lead keel meets the bottom of the fiberglass keel stub. As these
>> things go, yours appears to be pretty minor. On older boats with a swept
>> back keel, I’ve seen gaps at the leading edge of the joint of a quarter
>> inch or so.
>>
>>
>>
>> The probable cause is that the tension on the keel bolts is too low. When
>> the boat was built, a sealing compound was put between the top of the keel
>> and the bottom of the hull, and the bolts were torqued tight. As the boat
>> heels when sailing, the keel flexes slightly to the side, and the bolts
>> tend to lose torque over time. That leads to the crack – the C&C Smile – in
>> the hard paint or fairing compound covering the joint. On older boats with
>> the swept back keel, the crack can be accentuated if the boat is blocked at
>> the back of the keel, or with too much of the boat’s weight supported to
>> far back. Some of the listers have indicated damage to the keel stub from
>> hard groundings, but I don’t see any real evidence of that in your photos.
>>
>>
>>
>> The condition can be cosmetic, or a real problem. Probably cosmetic in
>> well over 90% of the time. You can tell if it is a real problem if you put
>> the boat in the water and water leaks into the bilge from the joint.
>>
>>
>>
>> The solution is to torque the bolts properly, and retorque them
>> periodically. My 38 had a fairly large smile when I bought her in 2003. The
>> bolts got retorqued when I had some keel work done in 2004. Again in about
>> 2009, when we also opened up a small groove along the smile, put 5200
>> sealer in the groove, faired the joint, and applied a layer of glass cloth
>> from the leading edge of the joint to about 2 feet back  to address the
>> cosmetic issues. No smile when the bottom was painted in 2013. A slight
>> crack was evident last winter when I painted the bottom, and a little water
>> seeped out of the 5200 sealer – so I retorqued the bolts again (it had been
>> 8 years after all) and applied another layer of glass before the bottom
>> paint.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you find you have a water leak – which I suspect is not likely given
>> the appearance of the smile, the fix is to drop the keel, apply 5200 as a
>> new layer of sealer, and torque the bolts properly. That stops the leak,
>> but won’t stop the smile (5200, after all, is flexible and that is what
>> causes the smile). Fairing and a fiberglass band over the joint will
>> eliminate the cosmetic issues so long as you retorque the bolts every few
>> years into the future.
>>
>>
>>
>> As others have said, get a good survey. You are already paying a
>> relatively high price for  late 80s boat, and I really doubt that putting
>> another $5000 or more into rebidding the keel would be a desirable activity.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce;
>>
>>
>>
>> The reason that torqueing the bolts while on the hard is preferable to
>> doing it in the water might be that, when in the water, a goodly portion of
>> the effort is directed at supporting the weight of the keel instead of
>> applying force to the seal. On the hard, with the weight of the boat
>> holding the keel tightly to the stub, you would tend to get a tighter seal
>> and more tension on the bolts, which should slow down the inevitable
>> loosening of the bolts as the keel moves around while sailing – and thus
>> require less frequent torqueing or reduce the development of the next smile.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rick Brass
>>
>> Washington, NC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Bruce
>> Whitmore via CnC-List
>> *Sent:* Friday, September 22, 2017 11:54 AM
>> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> *Cc:* Bruce Whitmore 
>> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Josh,
>>
>>
>>
>> Quick question which I've wrestled with in my mind - Why torque the keel
>> bolts on the hard?  Since the keel will spend most of its time hanging from
>> the bottom of the boat in the water, isn't it better to torque the bolts in
>> the specific situation where the stresses will be applied?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the insights,
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce Whitmore
>>
>> (847) 404-5092 (mobile)
>> bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
>> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>
>> All C

Re: Stus-List question about a C&C 30 mkii keel

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Torque specs are here: 
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/torquebolts/torquebolts.htm 


I used those when I torqued Grenadine’s keel bolts this past offseason (while 
she was on her trailer).  You’ll generally need a torque wrench that goes up to 
some pretty high torque numbers, with a long handle / breaker bar / pipe 
extension.  The right size wrench probably has 3/4” or 1” drive, so you’ll need 
sockets in the right size and drive size for the nuts, plus socket extensions 
in the right drive size, and any drive size adapters if necessary.  I was able 
to rent all that stuff from a local rental place for a half day for about $50 I 
think it was.  I wrote about it here: 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2017-April/092139.html 


Cheers,
Randy

> On Sep 22, 2017, at 12:37 PM, David Miles via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Great explanation.
> What is the correct torque to apply?
> Thx.
> David
> C&C30MK2 Impulse
> 
> On September 22, 2017 11:23:45 AM Rick Brass via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> 
>> Lisle;
>>  
>> As others have said, you appear to be looking at the C&C Smile. That is a 
>> crack in the bottom paint or fairing compound covering the joint where the 
>> top of the lead keel meets the bottom of the fiberglass keel stub. As these 
>> things go, yours appears to be pretty minor. On older boats with a swept 
>> back keel, I’ve seen gaps at the leading edge of the joint of a quarter inch 
>> or so.
>>  
>> The probable cause is that the tension on the keel bolts is too low. When 
>> the boat was built, a sealing compound was put between the top of the keel 
>> and the bottom of the hull, and the bolts were torqued tight. As the boat 
>> heels when sailing, the keel flexes slightly to the side, and the bolts tend 
>> to lose torque over time. That leads to the crack – the C&C Smile – in the 
>> hard paint or fairing compound covering the joint. On older boats with the 
>> swept back keel, the crack can be accentuated if the boat is blocked at the 
>> back of the keel, or with too much of the boat’s weight supported to far 
>> back. Some of the listers have indicated damage to the keel stub from hard 
>> groundings, but I don’t see any real evidence of that in your photos.
>>  
>> The condition can be cosmetic, or a real problem. Probably cosmetic in well 
>> over 90% of the time. You can tell if it is a real problem if you put the 
>> boat in the water and water leaks into the bilge from the joint.
>>  
>> The solution is to torque the bolts properly, and retorque them 
>> periodically. My 38 had a fairly large smile when I bought her in 2003. The 
>> bolts got retorqued when I had some keel work done in 2004. Again in about 
>> 2009, when we also opened up a small groove along the smile, put 5200 sealer 
>> in the groove, faired the joint, and applied a layer of glass cloth from the 
>> leading edge of the joint to about 2 feet back  to address the cosmetic 
>> issues. No smile when the bottom was painted in 2013. A slight crack was 
>> evident last winter when I painted the bottom, and a little water seeped out 
>> of the 5200 sealer – so I retorqued the bolts again (it had been 8 years 
>> after all) and applied another layer of glass before the bottom paint. 
>>  
>> If you find you have a water leak – which I suspect is not likely given the 
>> appearance of the smile, the fix is to drop the keel, apply 5200 as a new 
>> layer of sealer, and torque the bolts properly. That stops the leak, but 
>> won’t stop the smile (5200, after all, is flexible and that is what causes 
>> the smile). Fairing and a fiberglass band over the joint will eliminate the 
>> cosmetic issues so long as you retorque the bolts every few years into the 
>> future.
>>  
>> As others have said, get a good survey. You are already paying a relatively 
>> high price for  late 80s boat, and I really doubt that putting another $5000 
>> or more into rebidding the keel would be a desirable activity.
>>  
>> Bruce;
>>  
>> The reason that torqueing the bolts while on the hard is preferable to doing 
>> it in the water might be that, when in the water, a goodly portion of the 
>> effort is directed at supporting the weight of the keel instead of applying 
>> force to the seal. On the hard, with the weight of the boat holding the keel 
>> tightly to the stub, you would tend to get a tighter seal and more tension 
>> on the bolts, which should slow down the inevitable loosening of the bolts 
>> as the keel moves around while sailing – and thus require less frequent 
>> torqueing or reduce the development of the next smile.
>>  
>> Rick Brass
>> Washington, NC
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com 
>> ] On Behalf Of Bruce Whitmore via 
>> CnC-List
>> Sent: Friday, September 

Stus-List Replacement for ST6000+ control head

[Anthony Mitchell via CnC-List]

I guess this would be directed to Fred but any advice would be appreciated.

We have a Raymarine Type 150 course computer hooked up to a TP1 linear
drive with an ST6000+ control head. The display on the control head has
blacked out, but the controller still works - it's a bit hit and miss to
operate now! I've had a look around on the internet but can't seem to get a
definitive answer on a replacement control head to drive the Type 150 with
the advanced features.

So, does anyone know if any of the new series control heads are fully
compatible with the 150 course computer.

Thanks

Tony Mitchell
SV Irish Melody,
1983 LF38 #150
Vuda, Fiji
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Score another point for Occam’s Razor.  With the new fuel petcock she purred 
like a kitten again today, for an hour with no shutdown or issue.  And now she 
has 50 psi fresh oil at idle.  Cleaned her up and got her all ready for CSYC’s 
Autumn Winds Regatta tomorrow Michael.

Thanks all for the input.  Turned out to be a fuel supply issue, and a lucky / 
educated guess as to what was wrong.

Cheers,
Randy

> On Sep 21, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Michael Cotton via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Went through Moyers years ago. Absolutely great stuff. A short cut for 
> ignition problems is an induction timing light. You have spark or you don't. 
> Can't wait to find out what is wrong.
> Michael
> 
> On Thursday, September 21, 2017, 7:30:46 PM MDT, Paul Fountain via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> If the fuel hose is original replace it to - the inner wall can collapse and 
> starve the engine ... 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com 
> ] On Behalf Of Randy Stafford via 
> CnC-List
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 6:40 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> Cc: Randy Stafford  >
> Subject: Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out
> 
> Update on this - went down to the boat today, pulled plugs, changed oil.  No 
> sign whatsoever of water in the engine.  Then on testing, she started right 
> up, ran smoothly at idle for several minutes, then shut down suddenly.  And 
> wouldn’t restart after a few short cranking attempts (with raw water intake 
> closed).  From that I was relieved that the starter and solenoid and starter 
> circuit were working, and the ignition circuits.
> 
> Per Occam’s Razor I removed and inspected the fuel petcock, as it’s been 
> troublesome this year (it became increasingly difficult to turn, then 
> suddenly easier to turn, hmmm…).  I believe it to be the culprit.  It was 
> stuck in what appeared to be a closed position, and turning its handle didn’t 
> change that.  I suspect it may have been just open enough to allow the fuel 
> line to fill, given enough time.  But once the engine consumed the fuel in 
> the line, it wasn’t open enough to keep supplying the engine.
> 
> I bought a new fuel shut-off valve from West Marine and will install it 
> tomorrow and report back.  As for my starter not working Sunday when I pushed 
> the button, I’ll let that remain a mystery unless it happens again.  Maybe I 
> didn’t have the ignition switch pulled out far enough when I pressed the 
> button.
> 
> Cheers,
> Randy
> 
> > On Sep 18, 2017, at 8:29 AM, Randal Stafford via CnC-List 
> > mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > Listers-
> > 
> > I’m having a problem with my Atomic 4, and hoped you might have some 
> > thoughts to share.
> > 
> > When I went out for a sail yesterday, she started right up, as always.  But 
> > then she cut out heading away from the marina.  Initially I suspected a 
> > fuel flow problem, as the petcock on the tank has become difficult to turn. 
> >  After ensuring the petcock was in the open position and the tank was full, 
> > she started right up again and ran smoothly for a good 10 minutes.  Then 
> > she cut out again, and wouldn’t start back up after some cranking.  I 
> > sailed for a couple hours anyway.  When I tried to start her to come back 
> > in, nothing happened when I pressed the starter button.  I assumed my 
> > batteries didn’t have enough amperage for the starter, after all the 
> > previous cranking, though my other electronics were running fine.  So I 
> > docked under sail power, pulled the batteries, and brought them home to 
> > charge.  They both tested at 12.7 volts and 83% charge when I put them on 
> > my charger.  Now they’re both at 100% and 12.9 volts.
> > 
> > So I now suspect a faulty ignition circuit, and possibly a faulty starter 
> > circuit.  Perhaps a loose connection or broken wire is having the same 
> > effect as pushing in the ignition switch.  I’ve yet to get into the 
> > lazarette and start tracing the wiring and testing with a multimeter, but 
> > that’s my next step.  I thought I’d write the list first to see if anyone 
> > has any quick hypotheses.
> > 
> > Thanks in Advance,
> > Randy Stafford
> > S/V Grenadine
> > C&C 301- #7
> > Ken Caryl, CO
> > ___
> > 
> > This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you 
> > wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> > 
> > All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
> ___

Re: Stus-List MIT's C&C custom 43 X Dimension available for free

[Lee Youngblood via CnC-List]

Hi All, 
I may be on the west coast, but check out the MIT/X Dimension wiki - as a 
broker, I’ve never seen this much info, from an owner on their boat:  
http://sailing.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Systems_Descriptions#Anchors 


Wow, Lee


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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out

[svpegasus38 via CnC-List]

Glad it was a simple did. 


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE DeviceDoug Mountjoy POYC Pegasus  (for sale) Lf38 
Rebecca Leah LF39 
 Original message From: Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 Date: 9/22/17  16:43  (GMT-08:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Randy Stafford  Subject: 
Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out 
Score another point for Occam’s Razor.  With the new fuel petcock she purred 
like a kitten again today, for an hour with no shutdown or issue.  And now she 
has 50 psi fresh oil at idle.  Cleaned her up and got her all ready for CSYC’s 
Autumn Winds Regatta tomorrow Michael.
Thanks all for the input.  Turned out to be a fuel supply issue, and a lucky / 
educated guess as to what was wrong.
Cheers,Randy
On Sep 21, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Michael Cotton via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Went through Moyers years ago. Absolutely great stuff. A short cut 
for ignition problems is an induction timing light. You have spark or you 
don't. Can't wait to find out what is wrong.Michael






On Thursday, September 21, 2017, 7:30:46 PM MDT, Paul 
Fountain via CnC-List  wrote:





If the fuel hose is original replace it to - the inner wall 
can collapse and starve the engine ... 

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 6:40 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Randy Stafford 
Subject: Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out

Update on this - went down to the boat today, pulled plugs, changed oil.  No 
sign whatsoever of water in the engine.  Then on testing, she started right up, 
ran smoothly at idle for several minutes, then shut down suddenly.  And 
wouldn’t restart after a few short cranking attempts (with raw water intake 
closed).  From that I was relieved that the starter and solenoid and starter 
circuit were working, and the ignition circuits.

Per Occam’s Razor I removed and inspected the fuel petcock, as it’s been 
troublesome this year (it became increasingly difficult to turn, then suddenly 
easier to turn, hmmm…).  I believe it to be the culprit.  It was stuck in what 
appeared to be a closed position, and turning its handle didn’t change that.  I 
suspect it may have been just open enough to allow the fuel line to fill, given 
enough time.  But once the engine consumed the fuel in the line, it wasn’t open 
enough to keep supplying the engine.

I bought a new fuel shut-off valve from West Marine and will install it 
tomorrow and report back.  As for my starter not working Sunday when I pushed 
the button, I’ll let that remain a mystery unless it happens again.  Maybe I 
didn’t have the ignition switch pulled out far enough when I pressed the button.

Cheers,
Randy

> On Sep 18, 2017, at 8:29 AM, Randal Stafford via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Listers-
> 
> I’m having a problem with my Atomic 4, and hoped you might have some thoughts 
> to share.
> 
> When I went out for a sail yesterday, she started right up, as always.  But 
> then she cut out heading away from the marina.  Initially I suspected a fuel 
> flow problem, as the petcock on the tank has become difficult to turn.  After 
> ensuring the petcock was in the open position and the tank was full, she 
> started right up again and ran smoothly for a good 10 minutes.  Then she cut 
> out again, and wouldn’t start back up after some cranking.  I sailed for a 
> couple hours anyway.  When I tried to start her to come back in, nothing 
> happened when I pressed the starter button.  I assumed my batteries didn’t 
> have enough amperage for the starter, after all the previous cranking, though 
> my other electronics were running fine.  So I docked under sail power, pulled 
> the batteries, and brought them home to charge.  They both tested at 12.7 
> volts and 83% charge when I put them on my charger.  Now they’re both at 100% 
> and 12.9 volts.
> 
> So I now suspect a faulty ignition circuit, and possibly a faulty starter 
> circuit.  Perhaps a loose connection or broken wire is having the same effect 
> as pushing in the ignition switch.  I’ve yet to get into the lazarette and 
> start tracing the wiring and testing with a multimeter, but that’s my next 
> step.  I thought I’d write the list first to see if anyone has any quick 
> hypotheses.
> 
> Thanks in Advance,
> Randy Stafford
> S/V Grenadine
> C&C 301- #7
> Ken Caryl, CO
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


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make a contribution to offset our