Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

I'd always heard that you could carry a bubble in the main up to 50% back and 
still be fast upwind in a masthead boat.  It seemed to be true for my SJ24 and 
for the 30-1.Didn't work well on the J29 frac rig I crewed on.RonWild CheriC&C 
30-1STL


  From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Rick Brass 
 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 12:09 PM
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction
   
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Josh;  The sailmaker who made my (now retired) 155 called the bubble in the 
main forward of the max draft a “speed bump”, said it was no big deal on a 
headsail driven boat like my mid-70s 38 mk2, and indicated it as a sign I could 
probably point a degree or two higher when going upwind.  Heck, he had sailed 
in the Americas Cup back in the 80s. Who am I to argue?  Rick BrassWashington, 
NC      From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh 
Muckley via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 12:26 PM
To: C&C List 
Cc: Josh Muckley 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction  Joel, With the 
narrow slot didn't you notice that the main got more back wind?  How did you 
handle this?Josh   
  

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

I second that based on my old San Juan 24.  The 135 just couldn't do as well as 
the 150 upwind in light air.  Once over 15kt it was a different story.  Because 
of the swept back spreaders and less heeling, I could go faster and more close 
winded than with the 150.RonWild CheriC&C 30-1STL


  From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List 
 To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
Cc: Joel Aronson 
 Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 10:25 AM
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction
   
David,
When I added a 155 I was shocked at how much boat speed I gained over the 135 
in light air.  We also had the inboard jib tracks for use with the 155.  The 
inboard tracks made for a very narrow slot, but it was fast if you paid 
attention!Its not you!
JoelFormerly 35/3The Office

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Rick,

I can understand losing the shape advantage with a tri-radial while furled
but double check about a bi-radial. A bi-radial should have nearly the same
shape furled or unfurled but would have the advantage of aligning the
fibers in the direction of stress (diagonally luff to clew) hopefully
eliminating any bias stretch...theoretically.

http://img.nauticexpo.com/images_ne/photo-g/25615-454011.jpg

I have also found that in my area (middle Chesapeake Bay) my 145 rarely
needs furled. We just don't get too many days consistently over 10kts.

Something else which may not have come up in discussion is the material
used for a padded luff. Many sailmakers default to a foam pad. It is my
opinion that these foams collapse and take on a set as a result of being
rolled or folded up during storage. Consider asking the sailmaker about
using a rope/series of ropes in the pocket instead of foam.

FWIW: I'm not convinced that the sailmakers necessarily have your best
interests in mind. The sooner your sail fails the sooner they get more
business.

Here's some reading material from Practical Sailor.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8pEh5lnvP1yakFDZERscXFTaUE

Josh

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016, 12:48 PM Rick Brass via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Interesting that you should mention furling. I’ve always considered roller
> furling to be about the same as roller reefing. But they are not the same
> thing to a sailmaker.
>
>
>
> I had a follow up discussion with a sailmaker for Ullman this morning and
> we discussed how much I might be reefing the headsail. Recall that I had
> planned on a 135 reefable to about 100. He indicated that they don’t
> recommend tri-radial construction for a reefing headsail because the shape
> advantage disappears. And for coastal cruising and durability, they
> recommend using one of the high modulus Dacrons over laminates.
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
> Washington, NC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh
> Muckley via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 16, 2016 12:07 PM
> *To:* C&C List 
> *Cc:* Josh Muckley 
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction
>
>
>
> There is a third option which you may not have been aware of.  Bi-radial.
> For a furling sail this might be a good option.
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C&C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Jake Brodersen via CnC-List]

Yes, the 155 will backwind the main a bit more, but the overall effect is still 
very positive.  I will run the traveler a little higher in light air to 
minimize back winding.  As the breeze picks up, the bubble isn’t as pronounced.

 

Jake

 

Jake Brodersen

C&C 35 Mk-III “Midnight Mistress”

Hampton VA

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Joel Aronson 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 12:31
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Joel Aronson 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

 

Josh,

 

I didn't notice a big difference, but the wind was less than 10 knots.  I 
generally trim the main by looking at the leech. and position of the boom.

Maybe Jake can chime in - it was his sail on my boat for Bermuda.

 

Joel

 

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:26 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Joel, 

With the narrow slot didn't you notice that the main got more back wind?  How 
did you handle this?

Josh 

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[evans.in.gibsons via CnC-List]

When we race, we carry 6 to 10 more people which equates to 2000 lbs of rail 
meat.As the vessel heels she wants to luff.  To stop the juff,  you must 
counter with rudder.  The more rudder you use the more drag is created.  Reef 
the sail and she goes faster because she is upright.
When it is just my wife and I there is no one on the rail.  It is amazing how 
much more sail you can carry when you have extra weight on the high side.

 Original message 
From: Rick Brass via CnC-List  
Date: 08-16-2016  4:41 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Rick Brass  
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction 

I’m curious. Why must you reef the main at 12 knots with the 135, while you can 
carry the full main and 150 to 15, and full main and 100 to 20? Rick 
BrassWashington, NC   From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On 
Behalf Of evans.in.gibsons via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 6:32 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: evans.in.gibsons 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction I have a 39.  
When we race I can carry a 150 in 15 knots.  When we started cruise i bought a 
135 rolller furl.  It was great up to 12 knots then I have to reef the main.  I 
finally gave up and got a 100% for cruising.  Easier to handle and I can keep 
full sail to 20 knots.  ___

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

I’m curious. Why must you reef the main at 12 knots with the 135, while you can 
carry the full main and 150 to 15, and full main and 100 to 20?

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of 
evans.in.gibsons via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 6:32 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: evans.in.gibsons 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

 

I have a 39.  When we race I can carry a 150 in 15 knots.

 

 When we started cruise i bought a 135 rolller furl.  It was great up to 12 
knots then I have to reef the main.  I finally gave up and got a 100% for 
cruising.  Easier to handle and I can keep full sail to 20 knots.

 

 

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[evans.in.gibsons via CnC-List]

I have a 39.  When we race I can carry a 150 in 15 knots.
 When we started cruise i bought a 135 rolller furl.  It was great up to 12 
knots then I have to reef the main.  I finally gave up and got a 100% for 
cruising.  Easier to handle and I can keep full sail to 20 knots.
We find that we miss the performance only in very little winds..i.e. 3 to 4 
knots.Go with the 100%.

 Original message 
From: jtsails via CnC-List  
Date: 08-16-2016  3:12 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: jtsails  
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction 




Rick,
My advice is to keep in mind that a racing sail is a racing sail and a 
cruising sail is a cruising sail. Anything in between is a compromise and won’t 
be outstanding for either! I’m really happy with my 125% cross cut cruising 
sail, if I did it again, I would go even smaller (especially if I had an 
asymmetrical for off the wind). With our 16’ J, a 125% is still 20’ LP and 500 
sq ft, not exactly small!! A 135% only has 40 sq ft more area but has an extra 
1.6’ to pull around in a tack. From what I have seen, putting a UV cover on the 
leech screws up the shape of the sail a whole lot more than the difference 
between construction methods. I don’t know what kind of shape the 155% is in, 
but why not keep it for racing and buy a pure cruising sail? Another 
thought 
From a racing perspective, the lead angle on a 135% is wider than the 155% 
which 
sucks for pointing I wonder if we could use a 100-110% that would sheet 
inside the shrouds? It would point much higher than a 135% and be a breeze to 
handle. Maybe mount a track on the old winch base on the cabin top?
James
Delaney
C&C 38 Mk2
Oriental, NC


 

From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 1:09 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail 
construction
 


Josh;
 
The 
sailmaker who made my (now retired) 155 called the bubble in the main forward 
of 
the max draft a “speed bump”, said it was no big deal on a headsail driven boat 
like my mid-70s 38 mk2, and indicated it as a sign I could probably point a 
degree or two higher when going upwind.
 
Heck, 
he had sailed in the Americas Cup back in the 80s. Who am I to 
argue?
 
Rick 
Brass
Washington, 
NC
 
 
 
From: CnC-List 
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley via 
CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 12:26 PM
To: C&C 
List 
Cc: Josh Muckley 

Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new 
headsail construction
 
Joel, 
With the narrow slot didn't you notice that the 
main got more back wind?  How did you handle this?
Josh 

 


   


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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[jtsails via CnC-List]

Rick,
My advice is to keep in mind that a racing sail is a racing sail and a cruising 
sail is a cruising sail. Anything in between is a compromise and won’t be 
outstanding for either! I’m really happy with my 125% cross cut cruising sail, 
if I did it again, I would go even smaller (especially if I had an asymmetrical 
for off the wind). With our 16’ J, a 125% is still 20’ LP and 500 sq ft, not 
exactly small!! A 135% only has 40 sq ft more area but has an extra 1.6’ to 
pull around in a tack. From what I have seen, putting a UV cover on the leech 
screws up the shape of the sail a whole lot more than the difference between 
construction methods. I don’t know what kind of shape the 155% is in, but why 
not keep it for racing and buy a pure cruising sail? Another thought From a 
racing perspective, the lead angle on a 135% is wider than the 155% which sucks 
for pointing I wonder if we could use a 100-110% that would sheet inside 
the shrouds? It would point much higher than a 135% and be a breeze to handle. 
Maybe mount a track on the old winch base on the cabin top?
James
Delaney
C&C 38 Mk2
Oriental, NC

From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 1:09 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Rick Brass 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

Josh;

 

The sailmaker who made my (now retired) 155 called the bubble in the main 
forward of the max draft a “speed bump”, said it was no big deal on a headsail 
driven boat like my mid-70s 38 mk2, and indicated it as a sign I could probably 
point a degree or two higher when going upwind.

 

Heck, he had sailed in the Americas Cup back in the 80s. Who am I to argue?

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 12:26 PM
To: C&C List 
Cc: Josh Muckley 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

 

Joel, 

With the narrow slot didn't you notice that the main got more back wind?  How 
did you handle this?

Josh 

 

   




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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

The main is dacron full batten that I got last year (Mack Sails).  I am still 
trying to discover how it likes to be trimmed, but think I have it reasonably 
optimized from VMG testing.  Dave
  
Dr. David Knecht
Professor of Molecular and Cell Biology
Core Microscopy Facility Director
University of Connecticut   
91 N. Eagleville Rd.
Storrs, CT 06269
860-486-2200

> On Aug 16, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> David;
>  
> In 5 knots the 155 would have a big advantage – in 12 knots not so much. In 
> 15 the Dacron 135 I use now (instead of the old carbon 155) gets me to hull 
> speed just fine.
>  
> With big winches, the difference in effort from a 135 to a 155 is pretty 
> manageable. So lightweight female crew may not be a significant problem.
>  
> But the 155 can be persnickety about trim, so the “novice” part of your crew 
> might make a big difference.
>  
> As I recall, the 36 was like a lot of the mid-70s C&Cs and was driven 
> primarily by the headsail. Your 90s vintage boat likely has a significantly 
> smaller J and is driven by a higher aspect main. What shape is your mainsail 
> in?
>  
> Rick Brass
> Washington, NC
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com 
> <mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>] On Behalf Of David Knecht via CnC-List
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 11:18 AM
> To: CnC CnC discussion list  <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction
>  
> I would like to add one more twist to this interesting discussion.  I have a 
> 140% UK tape drive genoa I got 3 years ago.  My main competitor in Wednesday 
> night beer can racing is a C&C 36 which has a 150-155 racing triradial 
> laminate genoa (no UV protective, kevlar I think).  In 5-12 knots of wind, he 
> just powers away from us upwind and he is supposed to be 20-30 seconds a mile 
> slower.  Admittedly, he is really good with experienced crew and knows his 
> boat well from years of competitive racing, but I don't ever go faster than 
> him upwind.  I fear that a 150% with my crew will be too much too handle much 
> of the time (3-4 lightweight female novices where he has 7-8 big strong guys) 
> but I wonder if the 140 vs. 150 is a reasonable explanation or if a “racing 
> briradial” is that much faster than a “cruising” tape drive?  Dave
>  
> Aries
> 1990 C&C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
>  
>  
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Josh;

 

The sailmaker who made my (now retired) 155 called the bubble in the main 
forward of the max draft a “speed bump”, said it was no big deal on a headsail 
driven boat like my mid-70s 38 mk2, and indicated it as a sign I could probably 
point a degree or two higher when going upwind.

 

Heck, he had sailed in the Americas Cup back in the 80s. Who am I to argue?

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 12:26 PM
To: C&C List 
Cc: Josh Muckley 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

 

Joel, 

With the narrow slot didn't you notice that the main got more back wind?  How 
did you handle this?

Josh 

 

 

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

 I picked up a < 100% #3 with battens for 22+ kts. North quoted three
different materials including their new warp oriented polyester cloth.

http://nsdnn.northsails.com/Radian/tabid/17344/Default.aspx

I ordered it in NorDac Radian NDR 7.5.
It works well, so much so that even down to 18 kts it is comparable
in VMG to my 140% #2. Well, at least upwind.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C&C 30-1


 

From: Josh Muckley  

As others have said at such a heavy weight you probably won't notice a 
difference between the tri-radial and the cross cut.  I experience the same 
thing with wines.  A great wine doesn't distinguish itself from a good one 
unless tasted side by side.  A crosscut sail tends to stretch diagonally to 
the lay of the weave, on the bias.  The tighter the weave the less bias 
stretch.  Fabric makers heat shrink and urethane coat their products to 
reduce this type of stretch.  As the material gets heavier the thicker the 
threads get and the tighter they can be packed which further reduces bias 
stretch.  Spinnakers, being made of such light weight and untreated 
materials are most likely to experience stretch.  Since downwind stretch 
isn't much of a concern but strength IS aligning the fibers in the 
direction of stress (tri-radial) is a method of strengthening the sail. 
 
Unless serious offshore aspirations are in your future I would consider 
reducing the cloth weight.  If tri-radial is absolutely desired then even 
lower weight may be acceptable.  Couple those options with some of the 
newer cloths which incorporate vectran, spectra or other hi-tech fiber and 
you could achieve a lower weight.  All of this builds into the reason why 
we see racing sails built with tri-radial designs and lightweight, hi-tech 
fabrics.  Obviously, as with everything, it is a compromise. 
 
There is a third option which you may not have been aware of.  Bi-radial. 
For a furling sail this might be a good option. 
 
Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C&C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 
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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Actually, I'm not proposing the cloth or weight. All the headsail quotes
have recommended Challenge High Mass Fiber in 8.88 to 9.1 oz cloth. 

 

For the main they are recommending either the HMF fabric at 8.88 oz or
Challenge High Aspect High Modulus 8.3 oz. 

 

I presume the cloth recommendations are driven by durability based on the
idea that I do coastal cruising (and the trip to Bermuda for the AC next
June) and only 4 or 5 charity (fun) races each summer.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of robert
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 9:18 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: robert 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

 

Rick:

If you were getting say, a 150% genoa made from a lighter cloth than what
you are proposing (8.88 and 9.1 oz.), 

 

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Interesting that you should mention furling. I’ve always considered roller 
furling to be about the same as roller reefing. But they are not the same thing 
to a sailmaker.

 

I had a follow up discussion with a sailmaker for Ullman this morning and we 
discussed how much I might be reefing the headsail. Recall that I had planned 
on a 135 reefable to about 100. He indicated that they don’t recommend 
tri-radial construction for a reefing headsail because the shape advantage 
disappears. And for coastal cruising and durability, they recommend using one 
of the high modulus Dacrons over laminates.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 12:07 PM
To: C&C List 
Cc: Josh Muckley 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

 

There is a third option which you may not have been aware of.  Bi-radial.  For 
a furling sail this might be a good option.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD

 

 

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Josh,

I didn't notice a big difference, but the wind was less than 10 knots.  I
generally trim the main by looking at the leech. and position of the boom.
Maybe Jake can chime in - it was his sail on my boat for Bermuda.

Joel

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:26 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Joel,
>
> With the narrow slot didn't you notice that the main got more back wind?
> How did you handle this?
>
> Josh
>
> On Aug 16, 2016 11:26 AM, "Joel Aronson via CnC-List" <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> When I added a 155 I was shocked at how much boat speed I gained over the
>> 135 in light air.  We also had the inboard jib tracks for use with the
>> 155.  The inboard tracks made for a very narrow slot, but it was fast if
>> you paid attention!
>> Its not you!
>>
>> Joel
>> Formerly 35/3
>> The Office
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:18 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to add one more twist to this interesting discussion.  I
>>> have a 140% UK tape drive genoa I got 3 years ago.  My main competitor in
>>> Wednesday night beer can racing is a C&C 36 which has a 150-155 racing
>>> triradial laminate genoa (no UV protective, kevlar I think).  In 5-12 knots
>>> of wind, he just powers away from us upwind and he is supposed to be 20-30
>>> seconds a mile slower.  Admittedly, he is really good with experienced crew
>>> and knows his boat well from years of competitive racing, but I don't ever
>>> go faster than him upwind.  I fear that a 150% with my crew will be too
>>> much too handle much of the time (3-4 lightweight female novices where he
>>> has 7-8 big strong guys) but I wonder if the 140 vs. 150 is a reasonable
>>> explanation or if a “racing briradial” is that much faster than a
>>> “cruising” tape drive?  Dave
>>>
>>> Aries
>>> 1990 C&C 34+
>>> New London, CT
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 16, 2016, at 9:53 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List <
>>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Rick — I don’t know if it will help you any, but I’ve posted a photo
>>> taken this past weekend of my new Rolly Tasker 135 genoa on my web server.
>>> This was under light air (maybe 6-8 knots apparent — I don’t have a wind
>>> instrument, so I’m just guessing). It’s a cross cut design, and seems to
>>> work pretty well.
>>>
>>> http://www.postaudio.net/webserver/headsail.jpg
>>>
>>> — Fred
>>>
>>> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
>>> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
>>>
>>> On Aug 16, 2016, at 8:41 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List <
>>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> It’s the end of summer and business must be getting slow. I’ve already
>>> been offered the 15% discount (though it was off the highest quote) and
>>> delivery in 3 to 4 weeks.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>>
>>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>>> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
>>> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>>
>>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>>> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
>>> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Joel
>> 301 541 8551
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
>> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>
>>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

David;

 

In 5 knots the 155 would have a big advantage – in 12 knots not so much. In 15 
the Dacron 135 I use now (instead of the old carbon 155) gets me to hull speed 
just fine.

 

With big winches, the difference in effort from a 135 to a 155 is pretty 
manageable. So lightweight female crew may not be a significant problem.

 

But the 155 can be persnickety about trim, so the “novice” part of your crew 
might make a big difference.

 

As I recall, the 36 was like a lot of the mid-70s C&Cs and was driven primarily 
by the headsail. Your 90s vintage boat likely has a significantly smaller J and 
is driven by a higher aspect main. What shape is your mainsail in?

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Knecht 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 11:18 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

 

I would like to add one more twist to this interesting discussion.  I have a 
140% UK tape drive genoa I got 3 years ago.  My main competitor in Wednesday 
night beer can racing is a C&C 36 which has a 150-155 racing triradial laminate 
genoa (no UV protective, kevlar I think).  In 5-12 knots of wind, he just 
powers away from us upwind and he is supposed to be 20-30 seconds a mile 
slower.  Admittedly, he is really good with experienced crew and knows his boat 
well from years of competitive racing, but I don't ever go faster than him 
upwind.  I fear that a 150% with my crew will be too much too handle much of 
the time (3-4 lightweight female novices where he has 7-8 big strong guys) but 
I wonder if the 140 vs. 150 is a reasonable explanation or if a “racing 
briradial” is that much faster than a “cruising” tape drive?  Dave

 

Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT




 

 

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Joel,

With the narrow slot didn't you notice that the main got more back wind?
How did you handle this?

Josh

On Aug 16, 2016 11:26 AM, "Joel Aronson via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> David,
>
> When I added a 155 I was shocked at how much boat speed I gained over the
> 135 in light air.  We also had the inboard jib tracks for use with the
> 155.  The inboard tracks made for a very narrow slot, but it was fast if
> you paid attention!
> Its not you!
>
> Joel
> Formerly 35/3
> The Office
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:18 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> I would like to add one more twist to this interesting discussion.  I
>> have a 140% UK tape drive genoa I got 3 years ago.  My main competitor in
>> Wednesday night beer can racing is a C&C 36 which has a 150-155 racing
>> triradial laminate genoa (no UV protective, kevlar I think).  In 5-12 knots
>> of wind, he just powers away from us upwind and he is supposed to be 20-30
>> seconds a mile slower.  Admittedly, he is really good with experienced crew
>> and knows his boat well from years of competitive racing, but I don't ever
>> go faster than him upwind.  I fear that a 150% with my crew will be too
>> much too handle much of the time (3-4 lightweight female novices where he
>> has 7-8 big strong guys) but I wonder if the 140 vs. 150 is a reasonable
>> explanation or if a “racing briradial” is that much faster than a
>> “cruising” tape drive?  Dave
>>
>> Aries
>> 1990 C&C 34+
>> New London, CT
>>
>>
>> On Aug 16, 2016, at 9:53 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>> Rick — I don’t know if it will help you any, but I’ve posted a photo
>> taken this past weekend of my new Rolly Tasker 135 genoa on my web server.
>> This was under light air (maybe 6-8 knots apparent — I don’t have a wind
>> instrument, so I’m just guessing). It’s a cross cut design, and seems to
>> work pretty well.
>>
>> http://www.postaudio.net/webserver/headsail.jpg
>>
>> — Fred
>>
>> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
>> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
>>
>> On Aug 16, 2016, at 8:41 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>> It’s the end of summer and business must be getting slow. I’ve already
>> been offered the 15% discount (though it was off the highest quote) and
>> delivery in 3 to 4 weeks.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
>> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
>> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Joel
> 301 541 8551
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

As others have said at such a heavy weight you probably won't notice a
difference between the tri-radial and the cross cut.  I experience the same
thing with wines.  A great wine doesn't distinguish itself from a good one
unless tasted side by side.  A crosscut sail tends to stretch diagonally to
the lay of the weave, on the bias.  The tighter the weave the less bias
stretch.  Fabric makers heat shrink and urethane coat their products to
reduce this type of stretch.  As the material gets heavier the thicker the
threads get and the tighter they can be packed which further reduces bias
stretch.  Spinnakers, being made of such light weight and untreated
materials are most likely to experience stretch.  Since downwind stretch
isn't much of a concern but strength IS aligning the fibers in the
direction of stress (tri-radial) is a method of strengthening the sail.

Unless serious offshore aspirations are in your future I would consider
reducing the cloth weight.  If tri-radial is absolutely desired then even
lower weight may be acceptable.  Couple those options with some of the
newer cloths which incorporate vectran, spectra or other hi-tech fiber and
you could achieve a lower weight.  All of this builds into the reason why
we see racing sails built with tri-radial designs and lightweight, hi-tech
fabrics.  Obviously, as with everything, it is a compromise.

There is a third option which you may not have been aware of.  Bi-radial.
For a furling sail this might be a good option.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD

On Aug 15, 2016 7:05 PM, "Rick Brass via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’m in the process of getting a new set
> of sails for Imzadi. Thank you to the listers who recommended lofts and
> commented on their experiences.
>
>
>
> The specs for the new main are pretty well set. All the quotes so far have
> recommended cross cut, loose foot, full batten sails (using my existing
> Strong Track hardware), made from Challenge sailcloth.
>
>
>
> But there seems to be a range of opinion about the 135% roller reefing
> headsail. I’m looking for a 135% sail that can be reefed down to about
> 100%, with a balance of durability and good performance – and performance
> is probably worth some extra money to me. The quotes I’ve gotten all
> recommend a cross-cut sail made from Challenge High Mass Fiber sailcloth
> between 8.88 and 9.1 oz.
>
>
>
> I’ve always understood that tri-radial construction offered superior
> performance and shape over cross-cut construction.
>
>
>
> But one of the sailmakers has commented that both his cross-cut and
> tri-radial headsails would be designed using the same (virtual) mold so
> there would be little performance difference – not enough to justify the
> increased cost for a cruising sail. A second sailmaker says the tri-radial
> sail will “hold its shape better over the long term”, but said the
> significant increased cost (about 15% for tri-radial construction) make
> cross-cut a better option.
>
>
>
> So what is the experience (or opinion) of the list about the value of
> tri-radial construction? Give me some guidance.
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
> *Imzadi  *C&C 38 mk 2
>
> *la Belle Aurore *C&C 25 mk1
>
> Washington, NC
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

David,

When I added a 155 I was shocked at how much boat speed I gained over the
135 in light air.  We also had the inboard jib tracks for use with the
155.  The inboard tracks made for a very narrow slot, but it was fast if
you paid attention!
Its not you!

Joel
Formerly 35/3
The Office

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:18 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I would like to add one more twist to this interesting discussion.  I have
> a 140% UK tape drive genoa I got 3 years ago.  My main competitor in
> Wednesday night beer can racing is a C&C 36 which has a 150-155 racing
> triradial laminate genoa (no UV protective, kevlar I think).  In 5-12 knots
> of wind, he just powers away from us upwind and he is supposed to be 20-30
> seconds a mile slower.  Admittedly, he is really good with experienced crew
> and knows his boat well from years of competitive racing, but I don't ever
> go faster than him upwind.  I fear that a 150% with my crew will be too
> much too handle much of the time (3-4 lightweight female novices where he
> has 7-8 big strong guys) but I wonder if the 140 vs. 150 is a reasonable
> explanation or if a “racing briradial” is that much faster than a
> “cruising” tape drive?  Dave
>
> Aries
> 1990 C&C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> On Aug 16, 2016, at 9:53 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Rick — I don’t know if it will help you any, but I’ve posted a photo taken
> this past weekend of my new Rolly Tasker 135 genoa on my web server.  This
> was under light air (maybe 6-8 knots apparent — I don’t have a wind
> instrument, so I’m just guessing). It’s a cross cut design, and seems to
> work pretty well.
>
> http://www.postaudio.net/webserver/headsail.jpg
>
> — Fred
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
>
> On Aug 16, 2016, at 8:41 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> It’s the end of summer and business must be getting slow. I’ve already
> been offered the 15% discount (though it was off the highest quote) and
> delivery in 3 to 4 weeks.
>
> Rick
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

I would like to add one more twist to this interesting discussion.  I have a 
140% UK tape drive genoa I got 3 years ago.  My main competitor in Wednesday 
night beer can racing is a C&C 36 which has a 150-155 racing triradial laminate 
genoa (no UV protective, kevlar I think).  In 5-12 knots of wind, he just 
powers away from us upwind and he is supposed to be 20-30 seconds a mile 
slower.  Admittedly, he is really good with experienced crew and knows his boat 
well from years of competitive racing, but I don't ever go faster than him 
upwind.  I fear that a 150% with my crew will be too much too handle much of 
the time (3-4 lightweight female novices where he has 7-8 big strong guys) but 
I wonder if the 140 vs. 150 is a reasonable explanation or if a “racing 
briradial” is that much faster than a “cruising” tape drive?  Dave

Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT



> On Aug 16, 2016, at 9:53 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Rick — I don’t know if it will help you any, but I’ve posted a photo taken 
> this past weekend of my new Rolly Tasker 135 genoa on my web server.  This 
> was under light air (maybe 6-8 knots apparent — I don’t have a wind 
> instrument, so I’m just guessing). It’s a cross cut design, and seems to work 
> pretty well.
> 
> http://www.postaudio.net/webserver/headsail.jpg 
> 
> 
> — Fred
> 
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
> 
>> On Aug 16, 2016, at 8:41 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List > > wrote:
>> 
>> It’s the end of summer and business must be getting slow. I’ve already been 
>> offered the 15% discount (though it was off the highest quote) and delivery 
>> in 3 to 4 weeks.
>>  
>> Rick
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!

___

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Rick — I don’t know if it will help you any, but I’ve posted a photo taken this 
past weekend of my new Rolly Tasker 135 genoa on my web server.  This was under 
light air (maybe 6-8 knots apparent — I don’t have a wind instrument, so I’m 
just guessing). It’s a cross cut design, and seems to work pretty well.

http://www.postaudio.net/webserver/headsail.jpg 


— Fred

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

> On Aug 16, 2016, at 8:41 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> It’s the end of summer and business must be getting slow. I’ve already been 
> offered the 15% discount (though it was off the highest quote) and delivery 
> in 3 to 4 weeks.
>  
> Rick

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

It’s the end of summer and business must be getting slow. I’ve already been 
offered the 15% discount (though it was off the highest quote) and delivery in 
3 to 4 weeks.

 

Rick

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Danny 
Haughey via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 7:27 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Danny Haughey 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

 

Rick, 

Have you considered that the boat show season is coming up fast and you will 
likely be able to score a 15% discount if you wait and order at the boat show? 

 

Danny

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

I'm surprised it is only a 15% difference!  What cloth is he proposing for
the tri radial?  I would not go with a cheaper cloth and a tri-radial.

FWIW, The Office had an 8 ounce cross cut. You got a good look at it.

Joel

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 9:17 AM, robert via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Rick:
>
> If you were getting say, a 150% genoa made from a lighter cloth than what
> you are proposing (8.88 and 9.1 oz.), I would definitely spend the extra
> money and get a tri-radial.
>
> For a 135% from cloth this weight, I doubt there is much of a performance
> difference between the tri-radical and the cross cut.
>
> I have a 150% tri-radical which I used for the first 3 years when I got
> the boat..nice sail and really holds its shape but I found  be too much
> sail most days here.  I had Doyle make me a 135% from 8.3 oz. cloth, its a
> cross cut, and I doubt I could tell the difference if it was tri-radial.
>
> Nevertheless, I do believe the tri-radial is a superior design which will
> hold its shape over time but you will pay for the extra cloth (much wastes)
> and extra stitching (labor) needed to make it.  If you can afford the extra
> 15%, then why not get the better design.
>
> Rob Abbott
> AZURA
> C&C 32 - 84
> Halifax, N.S.
>
> On 2016-08-15 8:05 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List wrote:
>
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’m in the process of getting a new set
> of sails for Imzadi. Thank you to the listers who recommended lofts and
> commented on their experiences.
>
>
>
> The specs for the new main are pretty well set. All the quotes so far have
> recommended cross cut, loose foot, full batten sails (using my existing
> Strong Track hardware), made frhallenge sailcloth.
>
>
>
> But there seems to be a range of opinion about the 135% roller reefing
> headsail. I’m looking for a 135% sail that can be reefed down to about
> 100%, with a balance of durability and good performance – and performance
> is probably worth some extra money to me. The quotes I’ve gotten all
> recommend a cross-cut sail made from Challenge High Mass Fiber sailcloth
> between 8.88 and 9.1 oz.
>
>
>
> I’ve always understood that tri-radial construction offered superior
> performance and shape over cross-cut construction.
>
>
>
> But one of the sailmakers has commented that both his cross-cut and
> tri-radial headsails would be designed using the same (virtual) mold so
> there would be little performance difference – not enough to justify the
> increased cost for a cruising sail. A second sailmaker says the tri-radial
> sail will “hold its shape better over the long term”, but said the
> significant increased cost (about 15% for tri-radial construction) make
> cross-cut a better option.
>
>
>
> So what is the experience (or opinion) of the list about the value of
> tri-radial construction? Give me some guidance.
>
>
>
> Rick Brass
>
> *Imzadi  *C&C 38 mk 2
>
> *la Belle Aurore *C&C 25 mk1
>
> Washington, NC
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[robert via CnC-List]

Rick:

If you were getting say, a 150% genoa made from a lighter cloth than 
what you are proposing (8.88 and 9.1 oz.), I would definitely spend the 
extra money and get a tri-radial.


For a 135% from cloth this weight, I doubt there is much of a 
performance difference between the tri-radical and the cross cut.


I have a 150% tri-radical which I used for the first 3 years when I got 
the boat..nice sail and really holds its shape but I found be too 
much sail most days here.  I had Doyle make me a 135% from 8.3 oz. 
cloth, its a cross cut, and I doubt I could tell the difference if it 
was tri-radial.


Nevertheless, I do believe the tri-radial is a superior design which 
will hold its shape over time but you will pay for the extra cloth (much 
wastes) and extra stitching (labor) needed to make it.  If you can 
afford the extra 15%, then why not get the better design.


Rob Abbott
AZURA
C&C 32 - 84
Halifax, N.S.

On 2016-08-15 8:05 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List wrote:


As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’m in the process of getting a new 
set of sails for Imzadi. Thank you to the listers who recommended 
lofts and commented on their experiences.


The specs for the new main are pretty well set. All the quotes so far 
have recommended cross cut, loose foot, full batten sails (using my 
existing Strong Track hardware), made frhallenge sailcloth.


But there seems to be a range of opinion about the 135% roller reefing 
headsail. I’m looking for a 135% sail that can be reefed down to about 
100%, with a balance of durability and good performance – and 
performance is probably worth some extra money to me. The quotes I’ve 
gotten all recommend a cross-cut sail made from Challenge High Mass 
Fiber sailcloth between 8.88 and 9.1 oz.


I’ve always understood that tri-radial construction offered superior 
performance and shape over cross-cut construction.


But one of the sailmakers has commented that both his cross-cut and 
tri-radial headsails would be designed using the same (virtual) mold 
so there would be little performance difference – not enough to 
justify the increased cost for a cruising sail. A second sailmaker 
says the tri-radial sail will “hold its shape better over the long 
term”, but said the significant increased cost (about 15% for 
tri-radial construction) make cross-cut a better option.


So what is the experience (or opinion) of the list about the value of 
tri-radial construction? Give me some guidance.


Rick Brass

*Imzadi *C&C 38 mk 2

*la Belle Aurore *C&C 25 mk1

Washington, NC



___

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Danny Haughey via CnC-List]

Rick, Have you considered that the boat show season is coming up fast and you 
will likely be able to score a 15% discount if you wait and order at the boat 
show? 
Danny


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
 Original message From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
 Date: 8/15/16  7:05 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Rick Brass  Subject: 
Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction 
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’m in the process of getting a new set of 
sails for Imzadi. Thank you to the listers who recommended lofts and commented 
on their experiences. The specs for the new main are pretty well set. All the 
quotes so far have recommended cross cut, loose foot, full batten sails (using 
my existing Strong Track hardware), made from Challenge sailcloth.  But there 
seems to be a range of opinion about the 135% roller reefing headsail. I’m 
looking for a 135% sail that can be reefed down to about 100%, with a balance 
of durability and good performance – and performance is probably worth some 
extra money to me. The quotes I’ve gotten all recommend a cross-cut sail made 
from Challenge High Mass Fiber sailcloth between 8.88 and 9.1 oz. I’ve always 
understood that tri-radial construction offered superior performance and shape 
over cross-cut construction.  But one of the sailmakers has commented that both 
his cross-cut and tri-radial headsails would be designed using the same 
(virtual) mold so there would be little performance difference – not enough to 
justify the increased cost for a cruising sail. A second sailmaker says the 
tri-radial sail will “hold its shape better over the long term”, but said the 
significant increased cost (about 15% for tri-radial construction) make 
cross-cut a better option. So what is the experience (or opinion) of the list 
about the value of tri-radial construction? Give me some guidance. Rick 
BrassImzadi  C&C 38 mk 2la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1Washington, NC ___

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Re: Stus-List Opinions about new headsail construction

[Dave Godwin via CnC-List]

Rick,

Tri-Radials are just sexier.

There. I had to say it.

Seriously though, I’m a big fan of tri-radial sails. I have an old 140%  
tri-radial on Ronin that has well withstood the test of time in terms of 
keeping its shape and performance. It hasn’t been used for years and is in the 
attic but if I were to bend it back on when she goes back in the water I would 
not be displeased.

I look at the extra expense amortized over the life-time of the sail as opposed 
to the initial cost and for me it’s worth the uptick.

I guess I would ask myself how much will it be up and sailing. If I were not 
sailing constantly then I would think that a cross-cut sail will save me money 
and give me a great sail for a long time. If I were sailing a lot and in 
challenging conditions, then I would probably opt for the tri-radial.

OT: Interesting choice of a 135%. When Ronin goes back in the water I’m 
probably going to go with a 110% max. After wrestling with the 140% it will be 
a relief. Our racing-style days are over with.

My $0.02.

Best,
Dave Godwin
1982 C&C 37 - Ronin
Reedville - Chesapeake Bay
Ronin’s Overdue Refit 
> On Aug 15, 2016, at 7:05 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’m in the process of getting a new set of 
> sails for Imzadi. Thank you to the listers who recommended lofts and 
> commented on their experiences.
>  
> The specs for the new main are pretty well set. All the quotes so far have 
> recommended cross cut, loose foot, full batten sails (using my existing 
> Strong Track hardware), made from Challenge sailcloth. 
>  
> But there seems to be a range of opinion about the 135% roller reefing 
> headsail. I’m looking for a 135% sail that can be reefed down to about 100%, 
> with a balance of durability and good performance – and performance is 
> probably worth some extra money to me. The quotes I’ve gotten all recommend a 
> cross-cut sail made from Challenge High Mass Fiber sailcloth between 8.88 and 
> 9.1 oz.
>  
> I’ve always understood that tri-radial construction offered superior 
> performance and shape over cross-cut construction. 
>  
> But one of the sailmakers has commented that both his cross-cut and 
> tri-radial headsails would be designed using the same (virtual) mold so there 
> would be little performance difference – not enough to justify the increased 
> cost for a cruising sail. A second sailmaker says the tri-radial sail will 
> “hold its shape better over the long term”, but said the significant 
> increased cost (about 15% for tri-radial construction) make cross-cut a 
> better option.
>  
> So what is the experience (or opinion) of the list about the value of 
> tri-radial construction? Give me some guidance.
>  
> Rick Brass
> Imzadi  C&C 38 mk 2
> la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1
> Washington, NC
>  
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!