Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[Steve Thomas via CnC-List]

True. 

Our last sail at the end of October was with the genoa only, and the boat was 
remarkably well balanced and still had a bit of weather helm. If the boat is 
actually moving along then weather helm comes from hydrodynamic forces as well 
as the wind pressure on the sails. We all know this in theory, but I find it 
easy to forget sometimes. Out of sight, out of mind.  

Steve Thomas
C&C27 MKIII
on the hard, north shore Lake Erie
  - Original Message - 
  From: D.J. Platt via CnC-List 
  To: dwight veinot ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 9:39 AM
  Subject: Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?


  Which ever reduces weather helm the most.  As reefing the main moves the 
center of effort forward, it usually balances most masthead boats better by 
reducing weather helm.


  From: dwight veinot via CnC-List 
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 7:47 AM
  To: Jean-Francois J Rivard ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
  Subject: Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?


  my experience reefing is better...helps more to keep the boat upright...in 
18-22 apparent upwind on y 35 MKII she's faster with the 135 not furled and 
first reef in the main



  Dwight Veinot

  C&C 35 MKII, Alianna

  Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS

  d.ve...@bellaliant.net




  On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List 
 wrote:

  Here's another one on heavier winds:   Reef 1st or Furl 1st?  

  Up 'till a few weeks back, when the boat gets over-powered I typically 
furl long before I reef because it's so much easier + it's quick to un-furl 
when going on a reach. But then I watched the "in port" race with the Volvo 
'round the world thing where the ladies team reefed instead of going for the 
smaller gib and seemed to gain speed from that tactic.  When I tried reefing 
before it seemed to remove too much power ( In 18-22 breeze)  but I was not 
looking at the boat speed closely.   

  Has anybody done some tests on reefing vs furling in terms of outright 
speed on a close haul for a given wind speed?  

  -Francois Rivard
  1990 34+ "Take Five"
  Lake Lanier, GA   


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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[D.J. Platt via CnC-List]

Which ever reduces weather helm the most.  As reefing the main moves the center 
of effort forward, it usually balances most masthead boats better by reducing 
weather helm.


From: dwight veinot via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 7:47 AM
To: Jean-Francois J Rivard ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?


my experience reefing is better...helps more to keep the boat upright...in 
18-22 apparent upwind on y 35 MKII she's faster with the 135 not furled and 
first reef in the main



Dwight Veinot

C&C 35 MKII, Alianna

Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS

d.ve...@bellaliant.net




On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Here's another one on heavier winds:   Reef 1st or Furl 1st?  

Up 'till a few weeks back, when the boat gets over-powered I typically furl 
long before I reef because it's so much easier + it's quick to un-furl when 
going on a reach. But then I watched the "in port" race with the Volvo 'round 
the world thing where the ladies team reefed instead of going for the smaller 
gib and seemed to gain speed from that tactic.  When I tried reefing before it 
seemed to remove too much power ( In 18-22 breeze)  but I was not looking at 
the boat speed closely.   

Has anybody done some tests on reefing vs furling in terms of outright 
speed on a close haul for a given wind speed?  

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA   


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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

my experience reefing is better...helps more to keep the boat upright...in
18-22 apparent upwind on y 35 MKII she's faster with the 135 not furled and
first reef in the main

Dwight Veinot
C&C 35 MKII, *Alianna*
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net


On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>
>Here's another one on heavier winds:   Reef 1st or Furl 1st?
>
>Up 'till a few weeks back, when the boat gets over-powered I typically
>furl long before I reef because it's so much easier + it's quick to un-furl
>when going on a reach. But then I watched the "in port" race with the Volvo
>'round the world thing where the ladies team reefed instead of going for
>the smaller gib and seemed to gain speed from that tactic.  When I tried
>reefing before it seemed to remove too much power ( In 18-22 breeze)  but I
>was not looking at the boat speed closely.
>
>Has anybody done some tests on reefing vs furling in terms of outright
>speed on a close haul for a given wind speed?
>
>-Francois Rivard
>1990 34+ "Take Five"
>Lake Lanier, GA
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

On the Chesapeake there is one rating unless you exceed 155.

Joel

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Alan Bergen via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Besides looking at boat speed, you have to also look at wind angle, or in
> other words VMG.  I was overpowered so often with a 155, that I stopped
> using it and switched to a 135.  I heeled less, and gained five degrees
> wind angle and six seconds of handicap.  This year I stopped using the 135,
> and switched to a 105.  I gained an additional five degrees, and I'm
> waiting to see how much my handicap will change.  With the 105, I can sheet
> inside the shrouds, and quite often I beat faster rated boats to the
> weather mark.  An additional benefit, is my main doesn't get back winded as
> it did with the 155.
>
> Alan Bergen
> 35 Mk III Thirsty
> Rose City YC
> Portland, OR
>
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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st

[Alan Bergen via CnC-List]

Besides looking at boat speed, you have to also look at wind angle, or in other 
words VMG. I was overpowered so often with a 155, that I stopped using it and 
switched to a 135. I heeled less, and gained five degrees wind angle and six 
seconds of handicap. This year I stopped using the 135, and switched to a 105. 
I gained an additional five degrees, and I'm waiting to see how much my 
handicap will change. With the 105, I can sheet inside the shrouds, and quite 
often I beat faster rated boats to the weather mark. An additional benefit, is 
my main doesn't get back winded as it did with the 155. 

Alan Bergen 
35 Mk III Thirsty 
Rose City YC 
Portland, OR 
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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[Steve Thomas via CnC-List]

My 153 genoa still works good upwind when furled to a few inches above the bow 
pulpit. 
It is a Spike Boston, Doyle square weave polyester sail, with a piece of line 
sewn in to flatten the sail when partially furled. 
I discovered by accident that this has the added advantage of allowing to boat 
to self steer on a close reach in 20 knots.
Of course the conditions and the trim have to be just right, but I really had 
no choice but to give it a try since auto had lost his mind and I was single 
handing a 48 mile race.  
We, the boat and I, won. 

Steve Thomas
C&C27 MKIII
On the hard in Ontario
  - Original Message - 
  From: Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List 
  To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
  Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 10:34 AM
  Subject: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?


Here's another one on heavier winds:   Reef 1st or Furl 1st?  

Up 'till a few weeks back, when the boat gets over-powered I typically furl 
long before I reef because it's so much easier + it's quick to un-furl when 
going on a reach. But then I watched the "in port" race with the Volvo 'round 
the world thing where the ladies team reefed instead of going for the smaller 
gib and seemed to gain speed from that tactic.  When I tried reefing before it 
seemed to remove too much power ( In 18-22 breeze)  but I was not looking at 
the boat speed closely.   

Has anybody done some tests on reefing vs furling in terms of outright 
speed on a close haul for a given wind speed?  

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA   



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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[Burt Stratton via CnC-List]

When single handing (tiller boat, no auto helm) or even when sailing with
the admiral, reefing is not an option for me unless I choose to do it when
raising the main. I confess that I do furl the jib when needed and will also
just spill a little air from the main to the point of a mild luff when
needed to control heel in the gusts. I have yet to experience excess weather
helm. We don't fly our Kevlar jib on the furler any more just so I have the
option of reducing head sail if needed. I'm sure it is not made for that but
it works. We have also gone out a few times on just the jib (135%) and the
boat handles very nicely in that configuration. Never tried just the main
but my guess is that she would be rather unbalanced and really push hard on
the rudder in a stiff breeze.

 

Full disclosure: We don't race. well not when the other boats think we are.

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Edd
Schillay via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 10:59 AM
To: Paul Baker; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

 

I've been told by sailmakers that partially furling your sail is very, very
bad for the sail, especially on racing sails where the stress loads are
designed to be in particular places. 

 

That being said, when I was in a race and was suddenly faced with a 40-mph
storm, furling was the easiest and fastest way to reduce sail. 

 

All the best,

 

Edd

 

 

Edd M. Schillay

Starship Enterprise

C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B

City Island, NY 

Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log
<http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/> 

 

 

 

On Dec 4, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Paul Baker via CnC-List 
wrote:

 

I reef before I furl.

Cheers,
Paul
Orange Crush
C&C27MkII, Sidney, BC.

On 14-12-04 07:34 AM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List wrote:

Here's another one on heavier winds:   Reef 1st or Furl 1st?  

Up 'till a few weeks back, when the boat gets over-powered I typically furl
long before I reef because it's so much easier + it's quick to un-furl when
going on a reach. But then I watched the "in port" race with the Volvo
'round the world thing where the ladies team reefed instead of going for the
smaller gib and seemed to gain speed from that tactic.  When I tried reefing
before it seemed to remove too much power ( In 18-22 breeze)  but I was not
looking at the boat speed closely.   

Has anybody done some tests on reefing vs furling in terms of outright speed
on a close haul for a given wind speed?  

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA   






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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Cruising mode, I will very likely roll in the genoa first. Reefing the main is 
a better bet to go faster.
Funny story – I had a non-furling #3 genoa and full main up. We are crashing 
through a steep chop going to windward at 7.6 knots with the rail frequently 
under water. I was having a fun time steering, but the helm was heavy. My wife 
complained from below being heeled over that far was disturbing her nap time – 
argh ☹
So I threw in a double reef in the main. The helm got much easier, the motion 
was easier, we were only heeled about 20-25 degrees, and the boat speed was 7.8 
☺

Joe Della Barba
Coquina
C&C 35 MK I

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Joel Aronson 
via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 11:19 AM
To: Bill Bina - gmail; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

Jean-Francois,

I have not speed tested it, but the helm is nicely balanced with a reef and 
full 135.  I have a cruising jib from Rolly Tasker with a foam luff, so I could 
furl it, and will do so if the wind comes up suddenly and I want everyone in 
the cockpit.  The racing 155 has no foam luff and is a laminate, so I prefer 
not to furl.  When single handed, if I am not concerned about pointing I will 
go jib only.  Of course, you have a newer design, so your boat may handle 
differently.
Joel
35/3
Annapolis

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Not a universal truth. I have a genoa specifically designed and built to be 
furled from 150% to 135% and 100%. It has tape marks along the foot for those 
points. The sailmaker, Clarke Bassett, who designed and built this sail, made 
from graduated weights of sailcloth, also has designed and built sails for 
America's Cup (1987 Stars & Stripes) among other notables. The sail maintains a 
great shape at all points of furling, and because the forward part of the sail 
is made from the lightest weight cloth, the sausage is very thin and tight. He 
has patents on it.

Bill Bina

On 12/4/2014 10:58 AM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List wrote:
I’ve been told by sailmakers that partially furling your sail is very, very bad 
for the sail, especially on racing sails where the stress loads are designed to 
be in particular places.

That being said, when I was in a race and was suddenly faced with a 40-mph 
storm, furling was the easiest and fastest way to reduce sail.

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log<http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/>




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301 541 8551
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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Jean-Francois,

I have not speed tested it, but the helm is nicely balanced with a reef and
full 135.  I have a cruising jib from Rolly Tasker with a foam luff, so I
could furl it, and will do so if the wind comes up suddenly and I want
everyone in the cockpit.  The racing 155 has no foam luff and is a
laminate, so I prefer not to furl.  When single handed, if I am not
concerned about pointing I will go jib only.  Of course, you have a newer
design, so your boat may handle differently.
Joel
35/3
Annapolis

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>  Not a universal truth. I have a genoa specifically designed and built to
> be furled from 150% to 135% and 100%. It has tape marks along the foot for
> those points. The sailmaker, Clarke Bassett, who designed and built this
> sail, made from graduated weights of sailcloth, also has designed and built
> sails for America's Cup (1987 Stars & Stripes) among other notables. The
> sail maintains a great shape at all points of furling, and because the
> forward part of the sail is made from the lightest weight cloth, the
> sausage is very thin and tight. He has patents on it.
>
> Bill Bina
>
>
> On 12/4/2014 10:58 AM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List wrote:
>
> I’ve been told by sailmakers that partially furling your sail is very,
> very bad for the sail, especially on racing sails where the stress loads
> are designed to be in particular places.
>
>  That being said, when I was in a race and was suddenly faced with a
> 40-mph storm, furling was the easiest and fastest way to reduce sail.
>
>
>  All the best,
>
>  Edd
>
>
>  Edd M. Schillay
>  Starship Enterprise
>  C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
>  City Island, NY
>   Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 
>
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List]

Not a universal truth. I have a genoa specifically designed and built to 
be furled from 150% to 135% and 100%. It has tape marks along the foot 
for those points. The sailmaker, Clarke Bassett, who designed and built 
this sail, made from graduated weights of sailcloth, also has designed 
and built sails for America's Cup (1987 Stars & Stripes) among other 
notables. The sail maintains a great shape at all points of furling, and 
because the forward part of the sail is made from the lightest weight 
cloth, the sausage is very thin and tight. He has patents on it.


Bill Bina


On 12/4/2014 10:58 AM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List wrote:
I've been told by sailmakers that partially furling your sail is very, 
very bad for the sail, especially on racing sails where the stress 
loads are designed to be in particular places.


That being said, when I was in a race and was suddenly faced with a 
40-mph storm, furling was the easiest and fastest way to reduce sail.



All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 




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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

I’ve been told by sailmakers that partially furling your sail is very, very bad 
for the sail, especially on racing sails where the stress loads are designed to 
be in particular places. 

That being said, when I was in a race and was suddenly faced with a 40-mph 
storm, furling was the easiest and fastest way to reduce sail. 


All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
C&C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY 
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 



> On Dec 4, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Paul Baker via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> I reef before I furl.
> 
> Cheers,
> Paul
> Orange Crush
> C&C27MkII, Sidney, BC.
> 
> On 14-12-04 07:34 AM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List wrote:
>> Here's another one on heavier winds:   Reef 1st or Furl 1st?  
>> 
>> Up 'till a few weeks back, when the boat gets over-powered I typically furl 
>> long before I reef because it's so much easier + it's quick to un-furl when 
>> going on a reach. But then I watched the "in port" race with the Volvo 
>> 'round the world thing where the ladies team reefed instead of going for the 
>> smaller gib and seemed to gain speed from that tactic.  When I tried reefing 
>> before it seemed to remove too much power ( In 18-22 breeze)  but I was not 
>> looking at the boat speed closely.   
>> 
>> Has anybody done some tests on reefing vs furling in terms of outright speed 
>> on a close haul for a given wind speed?  
>> 
>> -Francois Rivard
>> 1990 34+ "Take Five"
>> Lake Lanier, GA  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
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>> page at:
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>> 
> 
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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[David via CnC-List]

Reef first.

A reefed headsail upwind is a poor second choice to a properly sized headsail.  

The shape is just not here.   In addition, it puts strains and stresses on 
points of the sail that may not have been designed for them.   

I find that a 110 moves the boat fast enough for most conditions and we can 
handle 30+ with a double reef or no mainsail quite comfortably.  

David F. Risch
1981 40-2
(401) 419-4650 (cell)


Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 07:46:26 -0800
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com


  

  
  
I reef before I furl.

  

  Cheers,

  Paul

  Orange Crush

  C&C27MkII, Sidney, BC.

  

  On 14-12-04 07:34 AM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List wrote:



  
Here's another one on
heavier winds:   Reef 1st or Furl 1st?  

  

  Up 'till a few weeks back,
when the boat gets over-powered I typically furl long before
I reef because it's so much easier + it's quick to un-furl
when going on a reach. But then I watched the "in port" race
with the Volvo 'round the world thing where the ladies team
reefed instead of going for the smaller gib and seemed to
gain speed from that tactic.  When I tried reefing before it
seemed to remove too much power ( In 18-22 breeze)  but I
was not looking at the boat speed closely.   

  

  Has anybody done some tests
on reefing vs furling in terms of outright speed on a close
haul for a given wind speed?  

  

  -Francois Rivard

  1990 34+ "Take Five"

  Lake Lanier, GA   

  
  

  
  

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Re: Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[Paul Baker via CnC-List]

I reef before I furl.

Cheers,
Paul
Orange Crush
C&C27MkII, Sidney, BC.

On 14-12-04 07:34 AM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List wrote:


Here's another one on heavier winds:   Reef 1st or Furl 1st?

Up 'till a few weeks back, when the boat gets over-powered I
typically furl long before I reef because it's so much easier +
it's quick to un-furl when going on a reach. But then I watched
the "in port" race with the Volvo 'round the world thing where the
ladies team reefed instead of going for the smaller gib and seemed
to gain speed from that tactic.  When I tried reefing before it
seemed to remove too much power ( In 18-22 breeze)  but I was not
looking at the boat speed closely.

Has anybody done some tests on reefing vs furling in terms of
outright speed on a close haul for a given wind speed?

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA



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Stus-List Furl 1st or Reef 1st ?

[Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List]

Here's another one on heavier winds:   Reef 1st or Furl 1st?

 Up 'till a few weeks back, when the boat gets over-powered I typically
 furl long before I reef because it's so much easier + it's quick to
 un-furl when going on a reach. But then I watched the "in port" race with
 the Volvo 'round the world thing where the ladies team reefed instead of
 going for the smaller gib and seemed to gain speed from that tactic.  When
 I tried reefing before it seemed to remove too much power ( In 18-22
 breeze)  but I was not looking at the boat speed closely.

 Has anybody done some tests on reefing vs furling in terms of outright
 speed on a close haul for a given wind speed?

 -Francois Rivard
 1990 34+ "Take Five"
 Lake Lanier, GA___
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