date:20070720

IRC and lists are great tools at sending and distributing information 
fast.  However, as more users, especially ones with little to no 
experience with linux, begin purchasing neo's these lists will be 
inundated with drivel.  There is only ~1000 people on this list and look 
at simple problems with a glitch with gmail.  I get 90+ messages about 
"is gmail broken," "gmail isn't working," "I think it is gmail," etc.  
Do you really want to check your inbox and get 5000-1+ messages 
about simple mundane things as the neo's are released to the mass 
market?  I suggested a forum to act as a buffer between the public and 
IRC/lists.  The IRC/lists can be for developers/advanced users and 
consumers can stay in the forums.


adam


Jeff Rush wrote:

Steven ** wrote:
  

Is that searchable?  Is it threaded?  Will there be someone on 24/7 that
is knowledgable and helpful?

I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists.  But users
expect to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and
IRC.  I think it's about time for some forums.



I'm not sure where you get "users expect to search and ask questions in a
forum" from.  And how does a forum provide "24/7 someone knowledgeable" in
such a way that a mailing list cannot.  I'm confused.

Mailing lists aren't exactly fading away, and many people dislike forums.  In
this case, it won't help if those with questions i.e. users flock to the
forums, if those with the answers, the more core developers use mailing lists.
You'll need community concensus, or a team to copy material between the two
discussion arenas, similiar to how we have people who have stepped forward
(thanks!) who clip useful stuff from the lists and put it on the wiki.

-Jeff

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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

2007-07-20 Thread Tim Knapp

Hello Kero/Jeff et al,

A NZ-grown opensource project that addresses the mailing list VS forum
problem might help here - http://onlinegroups.net/

It functions a lot like Yahoo Groups and gives people the *option* of
choosing their desired interface, i.e. mail client or web forum.

Just my 2c.

Kind regards,
Tim

On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 08:19 +0200, Kero van Gelder wrote:

> > Is that searchable?  Is it threaded?  Will there be someone on 24/7 that is
> > knowledgable and helpful?
> >
> > I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists.  But users expect
> > to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC.  I
> > think it's about time for some forums.
> 
> Funny, I expect to ask questions at IRC and search archives.
> and I expect messages to be archived indefinitely, as a mailing list does
> (I've seen many forums that don't, unless you mark "sticky"...)
> 
> Besides, the usabilty of those forums is very clunky compared to a decent
> email client. And if you want a webpage for these things? Use gmail.
> 
> Now, if you like the subforums feature of forums, perhaps the conclusion
> would be that we need more mailing lists. Atm, I doubt that. What would
> be bad is to start a forum with the same scope next to an existing mailing
> list, so we would have two places to search for the same thing.
> 
> Bye,
> Kero.
> 
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Re: Openembedded with openSUSE 10.2

2007-07-20 Thread Peter Trapp

Thanks for the information, asap my computer is running again, I'll mess 
 around with the open problems (if not closed so far)...

George Barta wrote:

I have been able to build the environment with the MokoMakefile, and
run the emulator after a couple of workarounds.  Unfortunatelly, I'm
having no luck getting gadgetfs to behave properly in order to SSH
into the phone.

See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile for more information on
the makefile, and
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:MokoMakefile#openSUSE_10.2_workarounds
for the hacks.

George

On 7/19/07, Peter Trapp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Are there news on that?

thx
-homyx

Hans van der Merwe wrote:
> Anyone had luck getting the dev platform working in openSUSE 10.2?
>

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Re: Hooks in Base Code

2007-07-20 Thread Henry Law

Jim McDonald wrote:

Giles Jones wrote:

Jim McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :

This is why you send the event to the notification system and then wait for the response. The notification system would read the users rules and act appropriately.

For an incoming call if you had a rule which says you are busy then the process
would be as such:

1.Phone process receives incoming call event.

2.Phone process sends call details and incoming call event to notification
system.

3.Notification system checks user settings.

Agree up until now, but this is the bit where we diverge; I believe that
if done properly there could be any number of responses to the fact that
there is an incoming call, and they won't all fit happily in to a
simplistic event code model.

Let's pick a simple example mentioned earlier on the list, where the
'phone is set to reject all calls but if someone calls three times in
five minutes then you want to make the 'phone ring because it may be
urgent. Now, the really important bit here is not the technical details
of how it accomplishes the requirement but the fact that it is highly
questionable if you want to put this type of functionality within your
base 'phone. It being just one of no doubt 100 esoteric features that
end users will come up with you don't want to be faced with a massive
set of options or a slow 'phone because it's checking so many things
every time someone calls you. You want this to be a much more flexible
system, and to do that you need to think of the 'notification' system as
a central messaging hub where it can pass on the fact that there is an
incoming call, along with the details of that call, to any module that

The diversity seems base on assumption that notification system
will broadcast the event and allow multiple response from different
modules.

What about using a system similar to iptables? Each module only
provide function to "match" against some call info. Some "target actions"
are defined by the notification system. And rules is setup by user
so that when a call event come in, the notification system can
check the call info against the rules one by one until one is match and
do the "target action" in that rule. Normally each "target action" will
do their jobs and then terminate the matching process.

For more complex situation, "target action" may allow continue
of the matching process (e.g. call history logging or send out sms),
but this own exist when both the module is allow and user have
add addition option on that "target action".

This should cover all condition which can be represent by AND/OR logic
and is easy to implement. The only drawback is the rule setup interface
may not be friendly enough for normal user.

Regards,
Henry

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Re: Hooks in Base Code

2007-07-20 Thread Jim McDonald


Henry Law wrote:




What about using a system similar to iptables? Each module only
provide function to "match" against some call info. Some "target actions"
are defined by the notification system. And rules is setup by user
so that when a call event come in, the notification system can
check the call info against the rules one by one until one is match and
do the "target action" in that rule. Normally each "target action" will
do their jobs and then terminate the matching process.
Yep that's pretty much what I'm talking about here.  But to do this we 
will need the low-level code to send us the methods/signals so that we 
can take the appropriate actions, which is the bit that I'm worried is 
not being considered and so this type of functionality will just not be 
possible without being a 'core' developer.



Cheers,
Jim.


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Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?

2007-07-20 Thread Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd.


Hi.

ramsesoriginal pisze:

On 7/20/07, *Jeff Rush* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:

I've been reading the archives of the various OpenMoko lists and
I've noticed
a significant number of people who admit they are not programmers
at all, or
that this is their first exposure to Linux.

But it's a wonderful thing that a lot of people are curious what is 
going on. I'm sure that a few of the would become a real programmers.


I'm curious what a non-programmer is going to do with this device
in the next
few months.  And if your first use of Linux is on the device
itself, and you
run Windows on your desktop, how you're going to grow your Linux
skills and
effectively develop applications.  Just seems odd to me, but maybe
I'm
overlooking something. ;-)

Thet will be very good beta testers. And about that linux, always should 
be the first time. But linux has its own magnetism. Jeff, I think that 
some of them will install linux distro on their PC and a new linux 
adventure will happen for them.
In some points i agree, but i think as an application developer you 
should not have to look into the code of gsmd, or whatever. As an 
application programmaer, i (usually) expect some sort of interface 
wich i can use, and wich is documented. Because if every application 
diggs deap in some sort of demons/driver/whatever, and some piece of 
code changes, then we're all fucked up (sorry for the expression).
I do agree with you. The code should be modular and there should be no 
need to look inside of it if someone only uses services provided by some 
daemon. Only interface/api should be known. Ofcourse it needs a good 
documentation but it's the part of libraries developers.


All non-developers -  keep tracking the OpenMoko!!! :-)
Greetings to all.
--
*Bartlomiej Zdanowski*
Programmer
Product Research & Development Department
AutoGuard & Insurance Ltd.

Omulewska 27 street
04-128 Warsaw
Poland
phone +48 22 611 69 23
www.autoguard.pl 
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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

2007-07-20 Thread Niels L. Ellegaard


"Ryan Lozier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Is there an openmoko forum? I am really sick of reading this mailing list for
> the last year to find subjects im interested in. If there is one, please
> someone point me to it, and im not talking about the wiki. I mean, where
> would someone go if they had a question about a particular function of 
> the phone or one of the softwares? This mailinglist? If there is no 
> forum yet, we need one.
> ryan.

Gmane provides a web-interface to the lists. It is fairly easy to
navigate, but I don't know if it remembers which messages you have
read. 

http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community

   Niels



 


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Re: Hooks in Base Code

2007-07-20 Thread Jim McDonald


Jeff Andros wrote:

ok, but here's the thing with having full plugin framework: what if 
two plugins take mutually exclusive actions (I.E. one plugin has a 
whitelist, it tries to answer the phone because it's the girlfriend, 
but the other plugin attempts to send the call to voicemail because 
your gps says you're in a movie theatre) who should win?  I think we 
need to take one step beyond independent plugins:
This could be handled through either ordering or priority, either would 
work.  There still needs to be a control center that receives the basic 
message from the core code (e.g. incoming call), works out which modules 
are interested in the message and then sends it on to them.  If you are 
using ordering then you would probably chain the messages so that if the 
message was altered by one module the altered message would be received 
by the next/./  If you were using priority then you could send the 
message to every module at the same time and wait for all responses 
before continuing.


  Ordering would probably be easier both to develop and for end users 
to manage.  Priorities *may* by faster, although that's not guaranteed 
by any stretch.  The best solution would probably be a combination of 
ordering and priorities.  As you mention, although this would be a very 
useful system a lot of the ability of it to be end-user friendly would 
rely on a very intuitive GUI (or alternatively a system that is 
restricted in such a way that a configuation GUI is not required).



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Re: Shipping, Billing, etc

2007-07-20 Thread Andreas Kaeser


Rodolphe Ortalo wrote:

Hmm, btw, I did not even get a "YES_I_DO" message personnally... has
everyone on the list received one against their order?

Rodolphe
...


I didn't receive one either. Don't know whether my order got lost,
I mistyped my email or I ordered too early or too late (2. day) ;-)

Andreas

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Re: Perfect set of Neo companion (and power questions).

2007-07-20 Thread Sander van Grieken

Here, check this out:

http://www.voltaicsystems.com/index.shtml

This would be my perfect Neo companion..

I need a new backpack anyway

grtz,
Sander


> 1) A powered 4 port hub that accept 5-6V external power (hacked to power
> a usb host connection). The perfect charger for the neo.. and, well, a
> hub as extra function.
>
> 2) A 2.2A 5V power supply (4x500 mA = 2A + overhead).
>
> 3) A led flashlight powered by 4 D-cell (LR20) batteries that also can
> power the hub. (possibly also usable with 5 D-cell for rechargeable
> batteries (NiCd/NiMH) at 1.2V each).
>
> 4) usb keyboard and any other gadget...
>
> 5) An extra set of batteries :-)
>
> according to wikipedia, alkaline D-cell have a capacity of ~20 000
> mAh... At 6V given 4 D-cell but I guess no more will come out of the
> hub at 5V.
>
> That's 16.7 times 1200 mAh... but how efficient is the charging of the
> phone... can one expect 1 or 5 or 10 full charges?
>
> And how much dose the phone consume over usb when already charged?
>
> Would be nice to be able to get a rough estimate on have long lifetime
> one can expect.
>
> /LaH
>
>
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Re: Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

2007-07-20 Thread Santiago Crespo

El lun, 16-07-2007 a las 13:10 -0400, Ian Darwin escribió:

> Calling it "the free(d) phone" to consumers (as opposed to developers) 
> is going to engender an enormous amount of confusion and ill-will.

> Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The 
> Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know.

I like the spanish term: "libre" (like in ubuntu cd-box).

The "libre" phone.


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Geek holsters

2007-07-20 Thread Ewan Oughton


Hi,


	Has there been any research into any geek holsters that would fit 
the moko?




Thanks


Ewan



Ewan Oughton B.Sc. Comp Sys
DB / AnonFTP / Orac Root Admin SkyNet


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Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?

2007-07-20 Thread Vincent


On 20/07/07, Jeff Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I've been reading the archives of the various OpenMoko lists and I've
noticed
a significant number of people who admit they are not programmers at all,
or
that this is their first exposure to Linux.

I'm curious what a non-programmer is going to do with this device in the
next
few months.  And if your first use of Linux is on the device itself, and
you
run Windows on your desktop, how you're going to grow your Linux skills
and
effectively develop applications.  Just seems odd to me, but maybe I'm
overlooking something. ;-)



Well, I'm not an OpenMoko developer, but I just find it very interesting to
follow this list, and be amazed by all the talent that has gathered around
this project :D

Plus, I don't think a lot of non-developers ordered a Neo yet (I didn't) so
there's not that much to do.

-Jeff


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--
Vincent
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Re: Hooks in Base Code

Jim McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :

> which is the bit that I'm worried is 
> not being considered and so this type of functionality will just not be 
> possible without being a 'core' developer.
> 

I don't think the project will last long if there's too much snobbery about who 
does what. 

By all means reject bad code, but don't create a closed off team like XFree86. 
We don't want someone forking the project creating confusion.

---
G O Jones





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Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?

Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :

> Thet will be very good beta testers. And about that linux, always
> should be the first time. But linux has its own magnetism. Jeff, I
> think that some of them will install linux distro on their PC and a new
> linux adventure will happen for them.

If OpenMoko can be used to boot Linux on a PC then it will be even easier for 
them.

Such an approach has been used for the Wizpy mp3 player, it will boot any PC 
into Linux.

http://www.turbolinux.com/products/wizpy/

---
G O Jones





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Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?

2007-07-20 Thread Ian Stirling


Giles Jones wrote:

Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :



Thet will be very good beta testers. And about that linux, always
should be the first time. But linux has its own magnetism. Jeff, I
think that some of them will install linux distro on their PC and a new
linux adventure will happen for them.



If OpenMoko can be used to boot Linux on a PC then it will be even easier for 
them.

Such an approach has been used for the Wizpy mp3 player, it will boot any PC 
into Linux.

http://www.turbolinux.com/products/wizpy/


http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:LiveUSB_distro

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Re: projects of interest?

2007-07-20 Thread Allan Savolainen



On Jul 17, 2007, at 8:58 PM, Daniel Robinson wrote:


What are the projects of interest for people?


I hope to port some bittorrent and emule client for openmoko, or  
perhaps even some sort of download module that could be utilized by  
other programs.

IRC is another important app for me as is VNC.

Also I hope to soon see if Neo1973 blends, though I wont be donating  
MY phone for that experiment.


- Allan Savolainen



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Re: Hooks in Base Code

2007-07-20 Thread Jim McDonald

 
Giles Jones wrote:


I don't think the project will last long if there's too much snobbery about who does what. 
  
In this case it isn't snobbery so much as ensuring that there is a 
simple way to put the right functionality in the right place.  
Overloading gsmd with lots of (potentially conflicting) user 
requirements would lead to code that was hard to maintain and with a 
steep learning curve, hence the point that only those who put the time 
and effort in to understand all of the wrinkles would be able to make 
safe changes, and these people would be 'core' developers purely because 
that's where they would have to do the development to get the 
functionality they required.


'core' isn't a synonym for 'better' here, it just refers to developers 
that work on the core functionality of the product rather than the (in 
my opinion) more interesting stuff of the higher-level applications.


Cheers,
Jim.


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Re: Bonus Order

2007-07-20 Thread Marc-Olivier Barre


On 7/20/07, Esben Stien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Isn't there like a bonus order if you order 5 neos'?, for the whole
family?;)



I bet you want to run a cluster of portable jack servers ;-) I'm
wondering if it's possible to rack mount NEOs...
__
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Re: Bonus Order

2007-07-20 Thread Al Johnson

Single connector for power and networking, battery backed. Think of it as a 
very small blade - all you need is a chassis full of USB hubs ;-)

On Friday 20 July 2007 13:12, Marc-Olivier Barre wrote:
> On 7/20/07, Esben Stien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Isn't there like a bonus order if you order 5 neos'?, for the whole
> > family?;)
>
> I bet you want to run a cluster of portable jack servers ;-) I'm
> wondering if it's possible to rack mount NEOs...
> __
> Marc-Olivier Barre.
>
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Re: Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts


On Jul 20, 2007, at 2:31 AM, Santiago Crespo wrote:

I like the spanish term: "libre" (like in ubuntu cd-box).


It's not a bad word, but unfortunately when I hear it I get an image  
of a guy wearing army fatigues and carrying an automatic weapon.   To  
some extent I think choosing a branding that will work in every  
country is a hopeless task.   I mean, Coke and McDonald's seem to  
have done it, but I don't know of a lot of others...



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Re: Real Time Audio (SCHED_FIFO)

2007-07-20 Thread Esben Stien

"Brad Midgley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> neo is running pulseaudio which is also an audio server with an
> option to use sched_fifo.

Yeah, I know PulseAudio, but that doesn't help interconnecting modules
in a real time fashion.

-- 
Esben Stien is [EMAIL PROTECTED] s  a 
 http://www. s tn m
  irc://irc.  b  -  i  .   e/%23contact
   sip:b0ef@   e e 
   jid:b0ef@n n

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Password manager app?

2007-07-20 Thread Dirk Bergstrom


The killer app on my Treo is Keyring, a password manager:

http://gnukeyring.sourceforge.net/

Has anyone thought of adding something like this to OpenMoko?  Perhaps 
gnome-keyring can be easily ported?


--
Dirk

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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45


Adam Krikstone wrote:
IRC and lists are great tools at sending and distributing information 
fast.  However, as more users, especially ones with little to no 
experience with linux, begin purchasing neo's these lists will be 
inundated with drivel.  There is only ~1000 people on this list and 
look at simple problems with a glitch with gmail.  I get 90+ messages 
about "is gmail broken," "gmail isn't working," "I think it is gmail," 
etc.  Do you really want to check your inbox and get 5000-1+ 
messages about simple mundane things as the neo's are released to the 
mass market?  I suggested a forum to act as a buffer between the 
public and IRC/lists.  The IRC/lists can be for developers/advanced 
users and consumers can stay in the forums. 
From the consumers standpoint, I think that a forum is mandatory.  If 
the plan is really to mass market this then IRC and/or mailinglists are 
*NOT* no matter how useful/easy/better *YOU* think they are going to 
work. If someone can't get to information easily with their web browser, 
and do something that they are familiar with (ie. forums are a VERY 
common tool), then they will NOT be able to get the help that they need 
and will be disappointed.


Mass marketing a device *IS* different from developing a device, not 
matter how hard you try to convince yourself otherwise.  You might have 
to succumb to using (or at least allowing) what YOU feel is an inferior 
tool if it will make things easier for the other less technical 
users/consumers out there.  Besides, do you really want to have to 
answer the same questions over and over on the mailing list?


Bottom line, keep an open mind.  Realize that just because something 
works for you doesn't mean that it will work for everyone.  And trust me 
when I say that IRC and mailinglists will not work for everyone.


-Jonathon

PS, I wasn't targeting my rant at you Adam.

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Re: Replying to digests Was: Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 48

2007-07-20 Thread Ortwin Regel

Seems like we need the right software then. http://gbatemp.net , running IPB
Portal v2 ( http://www.invisionpower.com/ ), does what you describe pretty
reliably as far as I can tell. Don't know if any other board software has
that functionality.

I find the hostality towards forums here pretty astounding... Forums should
not replace the mailing list but complement it. They would take some load
off the mailing list. If the list grows any bigger, I will have to cancel my
subscription, because I can't read through all this stuff anymore. The great
thing about forums is that they designed for selective reading. You only
read what interests you. It doesn't push all the crap to your inbox, you go
and get what you need.

Ortwin

On 7/20/07, Knight Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 05:44:29PM -0400, Jon Radel wrote:
> [Entire digest that has nothing at all to do with the above that both
> you sent out again removed.]
>
> Spam the whole mailing list?  Ah, at least you're forthright and know
> yourself well...
>
> Ever occur to you two forum fans that the mailing list would work better
> if you used it right?  Little matters such as:
>
> * If you're starting a new discussion thread, don't reply to an existing
> e-mail; it throws off the people who use thread-aware MUAs.
>
> * If you're replying to something in a digest cut out all the stuff
> you're not replying to and fix up the subject line.
>
> * TRIM!
>
> * TRIM SOME MORE!
>
> * If you're sending a "Me Too" reply, TRIM YET SOME MORE!
>
> (See Mathew Davis's follow up for a beautiful example of trimming. :-)

I agree. My main problem with a forum is that all the ones I've have
serious deficiencies, the biggest one being that it's really easy to lose
new messages if you don't dedicate a block of time to reading all new
messages (Sometimes in just one forum, sometimes site-wide). I have yet
to see a forum software that doesn't mark them all read if you have an
emergency in the middle and have to come back later. For some people
that's fine, but I prefer that my e-mail box stores a flag in each
message and lets me read on my own time.

As for the rest, I concur. Good netiquette goes a long way. Too bad it's
a dying art.

-KW

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Re: Password manager app?

2007-07-20 Thread Al Johnson

I've certainly considered it. I use a similar app on my Psion and will need a 
replacement if I'm to switch over to OpenMoko. Perhaps when I get that darned 
qemu to compile...

On Friday 20 July 2007 06:54, Dirk Bergstrom wrote:
> The killer app on my Treo is Keyring, a password manager:
>
> http://gnukeyring.sourceforge.net/
>
> Has anyone thought of adding something like this to OpenMoko?  Perhaps
> gnome-keyring can be easily ported?
>
> --
> Dirk
>
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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

2007-07-20 Thread Terrence Barr - Evangelist, Java Mobile & Embedded


On 7/20/07, Adam Krikstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


IRC and lists are great tools at sending and distributing information
fast.  However, as more users, especially ones with little to no
experience with linux, begin purchasing neo's these lists will be
inundated with drivel.  There is only ~1000 people on this list and look
at simple problems with a glitch with gmail.  I get 90+ messages about
"is gmail broken," "gmail isn't working," "I think it is gmail," etc.
Do you really want to check your inbox and get 5000-1+ messages
about simple mundane things as the neo's are released to the mass
market?  I suggested a forum to act as a buffer between the public and
IRC/lists.  The IRC/lists can be for developers/advanced users and
consumers can stay in the forums.



I agree.  I don't understand why people are so opposed to having a forum.
It doesn't mean that if we had a forum we had to shut down the mailing
list.  And no one is suggesting that mailing lists are outdated.  I think,
at least for me, adding the strengths of another great tool to the growing
list of already great tools is a good idea, especially once this starts
hitting the market.  I think there are some definate strengths that a
mailing list has that a forum could never have.  From my experiance I have
found forums to be a great tool for the novice to advanced user.  People who
know what they are talking about can help the beginer users and people who
have more dificult questions can turn to the mailing list.  And if people on
the dev team want to poke around in the forums the merrier but they don't
have to.  I for one think that forums could really enhance the community.
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community communication option review

2007-07-20 Thread Daniel Robinson


Here are the community communication options:

1) email lists

   email lists are available as single emails or as a digest.  These
lists can be searched via Google proxy.  Inherent organization is
chronological.  Can be threaded, but threads on similar topics are not
connected.

2) IRC

  and you got me there.  I don't do IRC. I can't get my sampling
frequency that high.

3) forum

 forums allow for submissions according to topic.  Discussions are,
by definition, threaded.  Search functions may or may not be limited
to what ever the forum software supports.  Some forum software search
functions allow for all postings between dates.  Some forum software
supports email notification for posts on boards, subboards or threads.
Forum software would require some amount of supervision.

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Re: freetheiphone.org


Adam,

Thanks for this important link. I decided to blog on the topic,
in case you're interested:

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/terrencebarr/archive/2007/07/open_technologi.html

-- Terrence

Adam Krikstone wrote:
I'm with the idiots for a wireless carterfone decision.  I don't think 
we were better off with with renting landline phones from AT&T.  There's 
nothing stopping a GSM provider from blocking all unbranded IMEI's,  
including your neo.


The idiots other website:  http://www.savetheinternet.com/

Mark wrote:

First of all I really don't think its the legislatures business to
prevent a company from making their device however they want.  The
consumers are dumb enough to buy it, thats their problem.  Secondly I
fail to see what the 700MHz sale has to do with that.  It will have
not affect on the iPhone because it doesn't use the 700Mhz frequency
and if they are forced to meet these proposed requirements cell phones
will never use said frequency, as their are several other perfectly
good ones to use.

So these people are either just trying to get support from some idiots
that believe what they say, or are themselves idiots.

And If this offends you then see the above paragraph and guess which
category I put you in.

On 7/13/07, Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Just launched today, I figure we should be aware. Maybe we could turn
this into an opportunity to increase awareness of the neo:

http://freetheiphone.org/



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begin:vcard
fn:Terrence Barr
n:Barr;Terrence
org:Sun Microsystems
adr:;;Zettachring 10 A;Stuttgart;;70587;Germany
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:Evangelist, Java Mobile & Embedded Community
tel;work:+49 711 720 98185
url:http://www.mobileandembedded.com
version:2.1
end:vcard

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Re: Perfect set of Neo companion (and power questions).

2007-07-20 Thread Eric van Horssen


Sander van Grieken wrote:

Here, check this out:

http://www.voltaicsystems.com/index.shtml

This would be my perfect Neo companion..


Do take notice of the hours of DIRECT sunlight needed to charge devices.

With less direct sunlight you need even more hours!!!

This comes from their own site:
"NOTE: For maximum power output, angle the panels towards the sun. When the panels 
are in direct sunlight but not angled towards the sun the power declines about 20%. When 
they are angled away from the sun the power drops off 80-90%. Dirt and scratches on the 
face of the solar panels will reduce the amount of light hitting the solar cells and 
reduce the power generated. To clean them use a damp non-abrasive cloth."

In other words, when walking around, you would normally only reach 20% of the 
power, unless you can always walk with your back to the sun?  ;-)

BTW any further offtopic discussions should probably not go the mailing list

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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

2007-07-20 Thread Joe Pfeiffer

Jeff Rush writes:
>
>Mailing lists aren't exactly fading away, and many people dislike forums.  In
>this case, it won't help if those with questions i.e. users flock to the
>forums, if those with the answers, the more core developers use mailing lists.
>You'll need community concensus, or a team to copy material between the two
>discussion arenas, similiar to how we have people who have stepped forward
>(thanks!) who clip useful stuff from the lists and put it on the wiki.

Since you've brought this up -- I'm one who definitely prefers the
dynamic of the mailling list over forums.  And with some people
harvesting information as it goes by and putting it in the wiki, it
really seems like the best of all worlds.

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Marketing...

People who are interested in marketing OpenMoko might want to read  
this article:


  http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/07/ 
just_because_it_saves_the_world.php


It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing  
OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in  
OpenMoko as something they care about.



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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

2007-07-20 Thread kent

On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 09:06:02AM -0600, Mathew Davis wrote:
> On 7/20/07, Adam Krikstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >IRC and lists are great tools at sending and distributing information
> >fast.  However, as more users, especially ones with little to no
> >experience with linux, begin purchasing neo's these lists will be
> >inundated with drivel.  There is only ~1000 people on this list and look
> >at simple problems with a glitch with gmail.  I get 90+ messages about
> >"is gmail broken," "gmail isn't working," "I think it is gmail," etc.
> >Do you really want to check your inbox and get 5000-1+ messages
> >about simple mundane things as the neo's are released to the mass
> >market?  I suggested a forum to act as a buffer between the public and
> >IRC/lists.  The IRC/lists can be for developers/advanced users and
> >consumers can stay in the forums.
> 
> 
> I agree.  I don't understand why people are so opposed to having a forum.

It's because it's yet another place that you have to look.  

> It doesn't mean that if we had a forum we had to shut down the mailing
> list.

Then everyone has to look *both* at the forum and at the list, if they want
to keep up, or research a particular issue.  If things had started out as a
forum, then adding a list would be bad, for exactly the same reason. 

>  And no one is suggesting that mailing lists are outdated.  I think,
> at least for me, adding the strengths of another great tool to the growing
> list of already great tools is a good idea, especially once this starts
> hitting the market.  I think there are some definate strengths that a
> mailing list has that a forum could never have.  From my experiance I have
> found forums to be a great tool for the novice to advanced user.  People who
> know what they are talking about can help the beginer users and people who
> have more dificult questions can turn to the mailing list.  And if people on
> the dev team want to poke around in the forums the merrier but they don't
> have to.  I for one think that forums could really enhance the community.

At this point it's clearly a developer community, not a consumer community --
there are no consumers using a neo, and there won't be for 6 months to a
year, at least.  From my perspective, then, the time to start forums would be
when there is a significant consumer community. 

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Re: freetheiphone.org

2007-07-20 Thread Shakthi Kannan


Hi,


Adam Krikstone wrote:
There's
nothing stopping a GSM provider from blocking all unbranded IMEI's,
including your neo.


Different operators have different implementation of the GSM standard,
which they call it their "IP-crap-R".

Now, if we want Operator Acceptance Testing with Neo, we have to sign
NDA, SLA with the operators?

In which case, we cannot implement the same on the Neo as the source
code is open, and operators will not like that?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks,

SK

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Re: Replying to digests Was: Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 48

2007-07-20 Thread Kero van Gelder

> Seems like we need the right software then. http://gbatemp.net , running 
> IPB
> Portal v2 ( http://www.invisionpower.com/ ), does what you describe pretty
> reliably as far as I can tell. Don't know if any other board software has
> that functionality.

Yup, that one is the main forum I'm using...

> I find the hostality towards forums here pretty astounding...

... and it messes up what I've read and not read regularly.


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Re: freetheiphone.org

2007-07-20 Thread Ian Darwin




There's
nothing stopping a GSM provider from blocking all unbranded IMEI's,
including your neo.


There's nothing stopping a toll highway operator from blocking unbranded 
cars either. But do they?  Does any GSM provider block unbranded IMEIs?
I know in Canada we have one GSM carrier (under two brands, Rogers + 
Fido), and I have used several "generic" phones on this network without 
trouble. It's the CDMA carriers that are used to blocking phones, 
because there you have to take the phone into their store. With GSM you 
just move the SIM over.



Now, if we want Operator Acceptance Testing with Neo, we have to sign
NDA, SLA with the operators?


You were planning to *ask* if you can use YOUR phone on YOUR plan?

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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45




It's because it's yet another place that you have to look.



This is true but it's a place where novices will look.  And I don't think
questions on the forums will be as technical as the mailing list.  I think
it will boil down to what you need answered.  If it's a simple question you
think can be answered on the forums then free up some space on the mailing
list and let the mailing list focus on more developer/important on topic
discussions.  Let the off topic/interesting but not important stuff go on in
the forum.  I think it will naturally go that way.  If you want to tighten
it up a little just add some moderators I am sure there are plenty of
knowledgable people who would be fine with volunteering for that.


It doesn't mean that if we had a forum we had to shut down the mailing
> list.

Then everyone has to look *both* at the forum and at the list, if they
want
to keep up, or research a particular issue.  If things had started out as
a
forum, then adding a list would be bad, for exactly the same reason.



I don't agree.  I think the things in the forum will be way more basic than
on the mailing list.  If there is something important being said on the
mailing list I am sure there will be people who will post it on the forums.
I will anyways.  So if your looking for something technical or important
stick to the list.  I don't think there will be anything new/important said
exclusivly on the forums.  If you don't want to look in two places then
stick with the mailing list I am sure you won't miss anything.  If you want
to help out some of the less technical users go to the forums and help
answer some questions.


 And no one is suggesting that mailing lists are outdated.  I think,
> at least for me, adding the strengths of another great tool to the
growing
> list of already great tools is a good idea, especially once this starts
> hitting the market.  I think there are some definate strengths that a
> mailing list has that a forum could never have.  From my experiance I
have
> found forums to be a great tool for the novice to advanced user.  People
who
> know what they are talking about can help the beginer users and people
who
> have more dificult questions can turn to the mailing list.  And if
people on
> the dev team want to poke around in the forums the merrier but they
don't
> have to.  I for one think that forums could really enhance the
community.

At this point it's clearly a developer community, not a consumer community
--
there are no consumers using a neo, and there won't be for 6 months to a
year, at least.  From my perspective, then, the time to start forums would
be
when there is a significant consumer community.



I agree.  But it's only 6 months away why not get things started.  I am sure
it will take a bit of time to get a forums started and a generous comunity
built.  If the neo's hit the market and there is a forum but no one uses it
yet, or it's not very polished or it's still buggy they will not use it.
And if non-technical users who purchas the phones can't figure out how to
customize thier neo and don't like the phone that will not be good for the
neo no matter how you look at it.

Sorry for writing so much but I really feel strongly that a forum will only
be a positive thing.  The more information we can get out to general users
and the more help we can offer them the better.  I personally thing the
forums and the mailing list will be two seperate tools.  I don't think there
will be that much overlap.  By that I mean people who use the mailing list
now will probably want to stick to the mailing list.  But I also see a lot
of things that really don't need to be on the mailing list.  General topics
about equipment to go with the neo, new way's they will use the neo, and
just general questions about network providers and plans don't need to go
here.  Let them ask those question in the forums.  I think the forums would
be a good place for people to ask general questions get general answers and
just enjoy discussing a wide range of things.  I think the mailing list
could benifit a great deal from a forum.  Just my $0.02.
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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

On 7/20/07, Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Jeff Rush writes:
>
>Mailing lists aren't exactly fading away, and many people dislike
forums.  In
>this case, it won't help if those with questions i.e. users flock to the
>forums, if those with the answers, the more core developers use mailing
lists.
>You'll need community concensus, or a team to copy material between the
two
>discussion arenas, similiar to how we have people who have stepped
forward
>(thanks!) who clip useful stuff from the lists and put it on the wiki.

Since you've brought this up -- I'm one who definitely prefers the
dynamic of the mailling list over forums.  And with some people
harvesting information as it goes by and putting it in the wiki, it
really seems like the best of all worlds.

I am still having a hard time understanding why we can't have both.  For me
I am fine using the mailing list and wiki, I think they offer more
flexibuility and scalibuility, but I also enjoy using forums.  I know a lot
of non-technical people who feel comfortable using forums.  I have tried and
tried to get my wife to use a wiki.  I can't for the life of me get her to
want to go to a wiki, but she uses forums all day long.  I think for right
now a wiki and mailing list coupled with IRC is a good team for developers.
I think for the basic user it won't cut it.  Really how many non-technical
users do you know use a mailing list, wiki, or IRC?  Seriously I know so
many more people that use Forums.  And I don't understand why we can't have
both.  I really don't see the problem so if someone could explain why not
having a forum would be advantageous and not just personal preferance I am
all ears, because I could list a lot of reasons why forums could be
advantageous.

P.S.- Sorry for sending this directly to you joe.  I keep forgetting to add
the community when I reply.
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Re: freetheiphone.org

2007-07-20 Thread Shakthi Kannan


Hi,

On 7/20/07, Ian Darwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

You were planning to *ask* if you can use YOUR phone on YOUR plan?


Yes.

SK

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http://www.shakthimaan.com

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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

2007-07-20 Thread Andy Powell

On Thursday 19 July 2007 23:39, Steven ** wrote:
> Is that searchable?  Is it threaded?  Will there be someone on 24/7 that is
> knowledgable and helpful?
>
> I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists.  But users expect
> to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC.  I
> think it's about time for some forums.
>
> -Steven

Those were never specified as requirements at all.  What they asked for was 
somewhere they could ask questions without  "spamming the list"  - irc is 
perfect for those little questions.

Andy

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Re: freetheiphone.org

As far as I know, no GSM provider blocks IMEI's.  I was responding to a 
person who asked whether it was possible. I do see troubling signs ahead 
coming from Telecommunication providers as consolidation continues.  
Their argument for net neutrality can easily be applied to wireless 
under the guise of maintaining "network quality."  All they have to do 
is spread FUD about linux and network "hackers" "compromising" GSM 
networks.  While it won't happen anytime soon, I wouldn't put anything 
past their ability and desires for greater customer control.


Ian Darwin wrote:



There's
nothing stopping a GSM provider from blocking all unbranded IMEI's,
including your neo.


There's nothing stopping a toll highway operator from blocking 
unbranded cars either. But do they?  Does any GSM provider block 
unbranded IMEIs?
I know in Canada we have one GSM carrier (under two brands, Rogers + 
Fido), and I have used several "generic" phones on this network 
without trouble. It's the CDMA carriers that are used to blocking 
phones, because there you have to take the phone into their store. 
With GSM you just move the SIM over.



Now, if we want Operator Acceptance Testing with Neo, we have to sign
NDA, SLA with the operators?


You were planning to *ask* if you can use YOUR phone on YOUR plan?

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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45


Mathew Davis wrote:
Sorry for writing so much but I really feel strongly that a forum will 
only
be a positive thing.  The more information we can get out to general 
users

and the more help we can offer them the better.  I personally thing the
forums and the mailing list will be two seperate tools.  I don't think 
there
will be that much overlap.  By that I mean people who use the mailing 
list
now will probably want to stick to the mailing list.  But I also see a 
lot
of things that really don't need to be on the mailing list.  General 
topics

about equipment to go with the neo, new way's they will use the neo, and
just general questions about network providers and plans don't need to go
here.  Let them ask those question in the forums.  I think the forums 
would
be a good place for people to ask general questions get general 
answers and

just enjoy discussing a wide range of things.  I think the mailing list
could benifit a great deal from a forum.  Just my $0.02. 
I think Matthew's post was 100% correct.  People need to get off their 
high horse and realize that just because the mailing list and wiki works 
for them, doesn't mean that is the best tool for everyone.  A forum is a 
great tool, that allows people to follow threads based on what interests 
them instead of having to receive ALL of the messages.  Not providing 
one would be a great disservice to a lot of the people that (possibly) 
will be purchasing the "Mass Marketed" phones.


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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45


Andy Powell wrote:

On Thursday 19 July 2007 23:39, Steven ** wrote:
  

Is that searchable?  Is it threaded?  Will there be someone on 24/7 that is
knowledgable and helpful?

I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists.  But users expect
to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and IRC.  I
think it's about time for some forums.

-Steven



Those were never specified as requirements at all.  What they asked for was 
somewhere they could ask questions without  "spamming the list"  - irc is 
perfect for those little questions.
IRC is great for technical people to ask quick little questions without 
"spamming the list".  However, IRC is not an option for those 
less-technical.  Basically, if they can't get the information they are 
looking for using their browser and ONLY their browser, then they will 
NOT find what they are looking for...


IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums.  I honestly 
don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum.  Other than 
people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand how 
people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question already.


So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give FOSS 
a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that can 
actually perform social interaction can help people out in the forums.


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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

2007-07-20 Thread Andy Powell

On Friday 20 July 2007 17:35, Jonathon Suggs wrote:
> IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums.  I honestly
> don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum.  Other than
> people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand how
> people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question already.

At what point did I actually say *anything* against forums? Please, show me. A 
question was asked and I made a suggestion - just because you don't like it 
doesn't mean others weren't aware of it as an option or whatever.

> So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give FOSS
> a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that can
> actually perform social interaction can help people out in the forums.

Wait, did you just insult everyone who uses irc / mailing lists. Good move.
You just failed 'social interaction 101'

Andy

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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45




Those were never specified as requirements at all.  What they asked for
was
somewhere they could ask questions without  "spamming the list"  - irc is
perfect for those little questions.




Yes for developers, or technicaly inclided users.  What will we do when it
goes to mass market?  Have an instruction book detailing how to use an IRC
channel?  I don't know any non-technical user who would ever even read that,
let alone try to conntect to an IRC channel.  I think this solution is good
for now, but I still think a forum is necessary if the neo is to be useful
in the hands of non-technical users.
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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

"7.  Most everything else can be designed by taking dumb and going 5 
steps below that for a public launch. "


IRC and mailing lists will not cut it for the target market public 
launch.  The only reason I care about the general public is that their 
acceptance is the only way more neo's will be made.


The social jab was unnecessary and uncalled for.

Jonathon Suggs wrote:

Andy Powell wrote:

On Thursday 19 July 2007 23:39, Steven ** wrote:
 
Is that searchable?  Is it threaded?  Will there be someone on 24/7 
that is

knowledgable and helpful?

I understand that some people love IRC and mailing lists.  But users 
expect
to search and ask questions in a forum, not on a mailing list and 
IRC.  I

think it's about time for some forums.

-Steven



Those were never specified as requirements at all.  What they asked 
for was somewhere they could ask questions without  "spamming the 
list"  - irc is perfect for those little questions.
IRC is great for technical people to ask quick little questions 
without "spamming the list".  However, IRC is not an option for those 
less-technical.  Basically, if they can't get the information they are 
looking for using their browser and ONLY their browser, then they will 
NOT find what they are looking for...


IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums.  I honestly 
don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum.  Other than 
people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand 
how people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question 
already.


So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give 
FOSS a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that 
can actually perform social interaction can help people out in the 
forums.


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Re: Marketing...


Make it simple and relate value to the consumer.  Nothing really new.

Design a stable openmoko platform with a aGPS application that geocodes 
a cached US map from an SD card.  Show them what that can do for them in 
a course of a day.  Then tell them the GPS is free and will always be 
free.  You should have no problem selling units and you don't have to 
explain openmoko.  If people are still hesitant, show them the 
application and formats supported that are available through the 
community that would relate to their use.


Ted Lemon wrote:
People who are interested in marketing OpenMoko might want to read 
this article:


  
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/07/just_because_it_saves_the_world.php 



It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing OpenMoko: 
how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in OpenMoko as 
something they care about.



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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

2007-07-20 Thread Jeff Rush

Mathew Davis wrote:
> 
> And I don't understand why we can't have both.  I really don't see the
> problem so if someone could explain why not having a forum would be
> advantageous and not just personal preferance I am all ears, because I
> could list a lot of reasons why forums could be advantageous.

I appreciate your viewpoint but here are a few reasons:

1. Our community is small -- spreading the discussions thinly before we have
reached critical mass will dilute the synergy.  We are just now starting to
come together as a community, and I think we even have too many mailing lists
as it is (not always clear on which one to discuss X).

2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the time/resources
to research and establish a forum themselves.  They were overloaded just
getting a basic storefront up.  I don't understand why a company the size of
FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on the
hardware/software but that's the way it is today.

3. Because of #2 and the fact this is the world of free/open, groups are
welcome to establish a forum someplace and announce it here.  In fact no one
can stop it.  Then instead of debating it you apply the governance principle
of open source, in that if you build it will they come.  If so, you were
right.  If not, you were wrong.  A very objective approach.

And for those (another thread) who are looking for someone official to tell
them how this or that is going to be done on the device, I think we as a
community will be applying #3 above - teams will form and follow their (quite
likely divergent) visions.  Those who (1) produce results that (2) some
significant portion of the community approve of will have their work
integrated into the core as required/optional packages.  And some fraction of
those will be cherry-picked by FIC for delivery in the consumer distribution.
 And perhaps other flash images will arise targeted at "the power user" and
"the gaming user" and "the multimedia user".

Being open source folks and time-constrained themselves, I rather think that
the OpenMoko team will be blessing running code and not managing the various
teams that form.  And that is good, because they cannot see the future uses of
this device any better than we at this point.  Not a planned economy but a
chaotic marketplace of competing ideas, where decisions are made in the
free/opensource tradition of "running code" and "rough concensus".  Scary
sure, but also refreshing and very exciting.

-Jeff

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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

2007-07-20 Thread Eric van Horssen




2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the time/resources
to research and establish a forum themselves.  They were overloaded just
getting a basic storefront up.  I don't understand why a company the size of
FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on the
hardware/software but that's the way it is today.


Have a look at what Harald wrote in his weblog on the 17th.
FIC is a B2B not a B2C, I don't think they ever before sold directly to 
customers.
So FIC can't provide them with any knowledge about B2C, this is just totally 
new for them

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Re: Marketing...

2007-07-20 Thread Raphaël Jacquot

Adam Krikstone wrote:
> Make it simple and relate value to the consumer.  Nothing really new.
> 
> Design a stable openmoko platform with a aGPS application that geocodes
> a cached US map from an SD card.  Show them what that can do for them in
> a course of a day.  Then tell them the GPS is free and will always be
> free.  You should have no problem selling units and you don't have to
> explain openmoko.  If people are still hesitant, show them the
> application and formats supported that are available through the
> community that would relate to their use.

bleh, why limit this to the US when most of the map of the UK is
available for free at openstreetmap.org ?

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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45


Andy Powell wrote:

On Friday 20 July 2007 17:35, Jonathon Suggs wrote:
  

IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums.  I honestly
don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum.  Other than
people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand how
people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question already.



At what point did I actually say *anything* against forums? Please, show me. A 
question was asked and I made a suggestion - just because you don't like it 
doesn't mean others weren't aware of it as an option or whatever.


  

So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give FOSS
a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that can
actually perform social interaction can help people out in the forums.



Wait, did you just insult everyone who uses irc / mailing lists. Good move.
You just failed 'social interaction 101'

Andy
Ok, before this turns into an argument, I was not referring directly to 
you.  Very sorry for not stating that explicitly.


As far as insulting people, I do not mean to offend.  However, you can't 
honestly think that the general consensus of the FOSS "help groups" is 
positive, do you?  There is a time and a place for RTFM to be a legit 
response, but 9 times out of 10, it is someone asking a simple question 
that they don't know the answer to, and someone doesn't take the extra 
few seconds to give a link or reference instead of belittling them.


So my point is to keep the mailing list technical, but offer forums for 
those who are less-technical and are inevitably going to ask "stupid" 
questions.


-Jonathon

P.S. I did not fail, social interaction 101.  But you are certainly up 
for the jumps to conclusions award for 2007


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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45


Jonathon Suggs wrote:
IRC is great for technical people to ask quick little questions 
without "spamming the list".  However, IRC is not an option for those 
less-technical.  Basically, if they can't get the information they are 
looking for using their browser and ONLY their browser, then they will 
NOT find what they are looking for...


IRC and mailing lists have their uses, but so do forums.  I honestly 
don't understand the resistance to the idea of a forum.  Other than 
people being so closed minded and elitist that they can't understand 
how people are soo stupid not to have know the answer to the question 
already.


So if anything, hopefully those people (who are the people who give 
FOSS a bad rep) will stick to IRC and mailing lists, and people that 
can actually perform social interaction can help people out in the 
forums.
I will again apologize for the social interaction comment.  It did not 
come across as I meant it (especially after re-reading my own post).


But the fact remains that we must be conscious of the less technical 
users.  I personally do not feel that mailing lists and IRC are 
sufficient to provide a broader audience with the information that they 
will be looking for.  If you think that the spamming of the lists, and 
improper "netiquette" is bad now, just wait till the userbase is more 
diluted (meant in a positive way) with non-technical people.  Will 
simply having a forum "solve" the problem...obviously no.  However, it 
will be a LOT more user friendly, and that in itself could be a deal 
breaker for some.


Sorry if I offended,
Jonathon

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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

I can respect that.  I understand that the Openmoko team is streached pretty
thin.  And I wish I had some skills to volunteer to build a forum, but I
can't I am more software driven and have no experiance with web
development.  Maybe someone else can do this.  I don't think opening a forum
will dilute much energy, but I can see where you are coming from.  We are
not really a big enough community to launch another communication avenue.  I
just hope that the openmoko can see how this will help support a good
customer base without much intervention on their part, hopefully.  What I
would hate to see is that when the phone is launched in 6 months that we
don't have anything waiting for those novice users and they get turned off
by the idea and it get's a bad rep from the start.

I want this project to suceed so badly.  I think this is exactly what the
communication world needs.  I think it offers the strength of linux and the
community, but bands it together around a common goal.  I think that really
emboldens linux and it's users to know that there is support for those who
are a littly weiry about trying linux.  Linux is a scary word to a lot of
people, but if you say don't worry about it we have 1000+ people ready and
willing to help with what ever you might have then I think they would be
much more willing to accept.  I think a forum would be a very easy and cost
effective way to do this.  I noticed the trouble they had with trying to
open a store front end and I am worried that if they wait to long to get a
forum up we could run into the same problem, and for a general consumer that
could spell disaster.  I am very impressed with the progress that the
openmoko team don't get me wrong I just really think that a forums is
necessary for the sucess of the neo 1973 and I am afraid that no resources
will be devoted to this.

So maybe what a solution could be is if someone can get a forum up.  And let
openmoko just route forums.openmoko.com to it.  I noticed that
openmokoforums.com has been snatched up and along with a few other domains.
I would like to see a forum sponsered by FIC/OpenMoko team.  Maybe I am jsut
blowing smoke and irritating people, but I just really really want openmoko
to be sucessful and for me I think that means forums.

On 7/20/07, Jeff Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Mathew Davis wrote:
>
> And I don't understand why we can't have both.  I really don't see the
> problem so if someone could explain why not having a forum would be
> advantageous and not just personal preferance I am all ears, because I
> could list a lot of reasons why forums could be advantageous.

I appreciate your viewpoint but here are a few reasons:

1. Our community is small -- spreading the discussions thinly before we
have
reached critical mass will dilute the synergy.  We are just now starting
to
come together as a community, and I think we even have too many mailing
lists
as it is (not always clear on which one to discuss X).

2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the
time/resources
to research and establish a forum themselves.  They were overloaded just
getting a basic storefront up.  I don't understand why a company the size
of
FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on
the
hardware/software but that's the way it is today.

3. Because of #2 and the fact this is the world of free/open, groups are
welcome to establish a forum someplace and announce it here.  In fact no
one
can stop it.  Then instead of debating it you apply the governance
principle
of open source, in that if you build it will they come.  If so, you were
right.  If not, you were wrong.  A very objective approach.

And for those (another thread) who are looking for someone official to
tell
them how this or that is going to be done on the device, I think we as a
community will be applying #3 above - teams will form and follow their
(quite
likely divergent) visions.  Those who (1) produce results that (2) some
significant portion of the community approve of will have their work
integrated into the core as required/optional packages.  And some fraction
of
those will be cherry-picked by FIC for delivery in the consumer
distribution.
And perhaps other flash images will arise targeted at "the power user" and
"the gaming user" and "the multimedia user".

Being open source folks and time-constrained themselves, I rather think
that
the OpenMoko team will be blessing running code and not managing the
various
teams that form.  And that is good, because they cannot see the future
uses of
this device any better than we at this point.  Not a planned economy but a
chaotic marketplace of competing ideas, where decisions are made in the
free/opensource tradition of "running code" and "rough concensus".  Scary
sure, but also refreshing and very exciting.

-Jeff

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Fwd: community communication option review

2007-07-20 Thread Daniel Robinson


Here are the community communication options:

1) email lists

   email lists are available as single emails or as a digest.  These
lists can be searched via Google proxy.  Inherent organization is
chronological.  Can be threaded, but threads on similar topics are not
connected.

2) IRC

  and you got me there.  I don't do IRC. I can't get my sampling
frequency that high.

3) forum

 forums allow for submissions according to topic.  Discussions are,
by definition, threaded.  Search functions may or may not be limited
to what ever the forum software supports.  Some forum software search
functions allow for all postings between dates.  Some forum software
supports email notification for posts on boards, subboards or threads.
Forum software would require some amount of supervision.

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Re: Replying to digests Was: Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 48

2007-07-20 Thread Vincent

On 20/07/07, Kero van Gelder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Seems like we need the right software then. http://gbatemp.net , running
> IPB
> Portal v2 ( http://www.invisionpower.com/ ), does what you describe
pretty
> reliably as far as I can tell. Don't know if any other board software
has
> that functionality.

Yup, that one is the main forum I'm using...

> I find the hostality towards forums here pretty astounding...

... and it messes up what I've read and not read regularly.

But if there are a lot of people that don't care, what is the problem?

--
Vincent
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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45


Jeff Rush wrote:

1. Our community is small -- spreading the discussions thinly before we have
reached critical mass will dilute the synergy.  We are just now starting to
come together as a community, and I think we even have too many mailing lists
as it is (not always clear on which one to discuss X).
  
~1000 users isn't necessarily that small.  And I would be willing to bet 
that there are quite a decent number of people that actually are 
interested but just don't want to sign up with a mailing list.  I'll be 
honest and say that this is the first mailing list that I have ever 
participated in despite being very much involved with the technical 
industry.  I was very hesitant to sign up (fear of the unknown, maybe).  
Anyway, even now that I am getting involved with it, I still do not like 
this interface.  I would much prefer a forum style, and would think that 
quite a few people (non-techies) would be of the same opinion.

2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the time/resources
to research and establish a forum themselves.  They were overloaded just
getting a basic storefront up.  I don't understand why a company the size of
FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on the
hardware/software but that's the way it is today.
  
Agreed.  But I don't think that is a very valid point.  What percentage 
of the communication of this list comes from actual FIC employees, 
pretty low.  So, just like it is now, the community would provide the 
bulk of the answers.

3. Because of #2 and the fact this is the world of free/open, groups are
welcome to establish a forum someplace and announce it here.  In fact no one
can stop it.  Then instead of debating it you apply the governance principle
of open source, in that if you build it will they come.  If so, you were
right.  If not, you were wrong.  A very objective approach.
  
Again, you are correct.  There are plenty of examples where the dominant 
discussions of products/services/whatever comes from a non-official 
source.  So, if someone wants to put this together, then I think that 
would be a great thing to do.  However, having all of the information be 
in a single location would provide a much better unified experience for 
the users.

And for those (another thread) who are looking for someone official to tell
them how this or that is going to be done on the device, I think we as a
community will be applying #3 above - teams will form and follow their (quite
likely divergent) visions.  Those who (1) produce results that (2) some
significant portion of the community approve of will have their work
integrated into the core as required/optional packages.  And some fraction of
those will be cherry-picked by FIC for delivery in the consumer distribution.
 And perhaps other flash images will arise targeted at "the power user" and
"the gaming user" and "the multimedia user".

Being open source folks and time-constrained themselves, I rather think that
the OpenMoko team will be blessing running code and not managing the various
teams that form.  And that is good, because they cannot see the future uses of
this device any better than we at this point.  Not a planned economy but a
chaotic marketplace of competing ideas, where decisions are made in the
free/opensource tradition of "running code" and "rough concensus".  Scary
sure, but also refreshing and very exciting.

-Jeff
I think its healthy to discuss both pros and cons of the ideas, so feel 
free to rebuttal my comments.  However, I am of the opinion that a forum 
would do a greater benefit than harm.  Feel free to disagree, but that 
is just my take in this situation.


-Jonathon

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Re: Shipping, Billing, etc

FYI, I am #2575 because I am generally a wise and patient man...
(Grr!!! I made my order less than 24hours after the opening)

Rodolphe

Le jeudi 19 juillet 2007 à 22:13 +0200, Peter Trapp a écrit :
> YES_I_DID
> 
> 
> :) or better we => group purchasing :)
> 
>  From our side everything went fine (#1952 -> also not that fare away 
> from Jason (#1820) if this mean something at all). I'm just curios...
> 
> 
> 
> Rodolphe Ortalo schrieb:
> > Hmm, btw, I did not even get a "YES_I_DO" message personnally... has
> > everyone on the list received one against their order?



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Re: Shipping, Billing, etc

Le jeudi 19 juillet 2007 à 13:35 -0700, Daniel Robinson a écrit :
> My number was 3585.  Does that mean there are 1747 nerds ahead of me?

Hmm, possible. But maybe there are even more after you... Comforting
no? ;-)



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Re: Bonus Order

Le vendredi 20 juillet 2007 à 02:08 +0200, Esben Stien a écrit :
> Isn't there like a bonus order if you order 5 neos'?, for the whole
> family?;)

Wow... A whole family of linux-based mobile phone _developers_?
Happy man, indeed.



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Re: Marketing...

2007-07-20 Thread Ian Stirling


Raphaël Jacquot wrote:

Adam Krikstone wrote:


Make it simple and relate value to the consumer.  Nothing really new.

Design a stable openmoko platform with a aGPS application that geocodes
a cached US map from an SD card.  Show them what that can do for them in
a course of a day.  Then tell them the GPS is free and will always be
free.  You should have no problem selling units and you don't have to
explain openmoko.  If people are still hesitant, show them the
application and formats supported that are available through the
community that would relate to their use.



bleh, why limit this to the US when most of the map of the UK is
available for free at openstreetmap.org ?


No, it's not.
A tiny fraction of the UK is available for free at openstreetmap.co.uk.
There are a few dozen highly mapped areas, but the rest is from sparse 
to damn-near-nonexistant.

My local city of 140K had one road.
My local town of 40K was entirely absent.
(I've since added)

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Re: Geek holsters

2007-07-20 Thread Jeff Andros


On 7/20/07, Ewan Oughton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi,
Has there been any research into any geek holsters that would fit
the moko?

Thanks

Ewan

Ewan Oughton B.Sc. Comp Sys
DB / AnonFTP / Orac Root Admin SkyNet



well... according to the site there's a simple pouch provided:
http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-base-00-stdkit.html#tab_standard_kit_article_3
you're probably talking about something more substantial though... I'd think
you've got to stick with generic holsters for the time being

PS... remember that openmoko is just a software distro... I'm assuming your
asking about the NEO1973 (Yeah, it's a pretty rough-to-say designation)
--
Jeff "not a fan of the bat-belt" Andros
Go Devils!!
O|||O
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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45


Jeff Rush wrote:

Mathew Davis wrote:
  

And I don't understand why we can't have both.  I really don't see the
problem so if someone could explain why not having a forum would be
advantageous and not just personal preferance I am all ears, because I
could list a lot of reasons why forums could be advantageous.



I appreciate your viewpoint but here are a few reasons:

1. Our community is small -- spreading the discussions thinly before we have
reached critical mass will dilute the synergy.  We are just now starting to
come together as a community, and I think we even have too many mailing lists
as it is (not always clear on which one to discuss X).
  
I completely agree.  A forum at this point is overkill but necessity 
should become apparent as more devices are sold.

2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the time/resources
to research and establish a forum themselves.  They were overloaded just
getting a basic storefront up.  I don't understand why a company the size of
FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on the
hardware/software but that's the way it is today.
  
With the rampant ADHD of users here, how much of that energy has gone 
into answering the same emails over and over.  I'm sure they are 
personally reading and responding to all emails themselves and that was 
only with ~1-2k orders.  I can only imagine the clusterfuck that would 
result if the current structure and implementation remained as orders 
ramp up to 10-20k for a mass release.  I also question FIC's 
organizational structure but for an open source project they have still 
exceeded my expectations.



3. Because of #2 and the fact this is the world of free/open, groups are
welcome to establish a forum someplace and announce it here.  In fact no one
can stop it.  Then instead of debating it you apply the governance principle
of open source, in that if you build it will they come.  If so, you were
right.  If not, you were wrong.  A very objective approach.

  
While I expect the openmoko project to fork as people seem to inherently 
love to bicker over what is included, free vs restricted, and default 
options, I didn't expect someone to suggest it so soon.  Consumers 
should be able to go to the openmoko site and get all the documentation, 
source, products, and support from an official site. 

I feel that most people here only look at the problems and solutions 
from a developer's perspective.  Sean has stated that there will be 
other neo's and maybe even carrier sales/support.  These devices are 
aimed at the mass market and a coherent support network covering all 
bases should be available.  You are asking people to switch from their 
comfort zone to a completely foreign manufacturer with an unknown mobile 
OS.  There is no real way for people to demo a neo in person unlike a 
linux livecd for the desktop so this process will be riddled with 
apprehension and problems guaranteed.  Instead of hand-holding new 
consumers, people are suggesting that the public can just deal with what 
is available.  I believe that thinking is a disservice to the adoption 
of openmoko and embedded linux.  Most of the new (windows)users will 
have to go through trial and error to get things to work for them.  
Having that new user explain to other incoming users how to replicate 
their experience is better than any written documentation with that 
process best shown in a recognizable forum format.  I am realistic of 
what support is actually attainable but developers and openmoko 
employees don't need to be omnipresent.

And for those (another thread) who are looking for someone official to tell
them how this or that is going to be done on the device, I think we as a
community will be applying #3 above - teams will form and follow their (quite
likely divergent) visions.  Those who (1) produce results that (2) some
significant portion of the community approve of will have their work
integrated into the core as required/optional packages.  And some fraction of
those will be cherry-picked by FIC for delivery in the consumer distribution.
 And perhaps other flash images will arise targeted at "the power user" and
"the gaming user" and "the multimedia user".

Being open source folks and time-constrained themselves, I rather think that
the OpenMoko team will be blessing running code and not managing the various
teams that form.  And that is good, because they cannot see the future uses of
this device any better than we at this point.  Not a planned economy but a
chaotic marketplace of competing ideas, where decisions are made in the
free/opensource tradition of "running code" and "rough concensus".  Scary
sure, but also refreshing and very exciting.

-Jeff

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Re: Marketing...


It was an example.  Just replace US with .

Raphaël Jacquot wrote:

Adam Krikstone wrote:
  

Make it simple and relate value to the consumer.  Nothing really new.

Design a stable openmoko platform with a aGPS application that geocodes
a cached US map from an SD card.  Show them what that can do for them in
a course of a day.  Then tell them the GPS is free and will always be
free.  You should have no problem selling units and you don't have to
explain openmoko.  If people are still hesitant, show them the
application and formats supported that are available through the
community that would relate to their use.



bleh, why limit this to the US when most of the map of the UK is
available for free at openstreetmap.org ?

  



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Re: Geek holsters

2007-07-20 Thread openmoko-comm

On Friday 20 July 2007 11:46, Ewan Oughton wrote:
> Has there been any research into any geek holsters that would fit
> the moko?

Check out this one:
http://tabletblog.com/2007/05/urban-tool-gadget-hip-holster-review.html

For me it is a little too geeky though ;-)

Felix

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Re: Marketing...

I am not even sure they need to know about "Open" if only they are aware
of the "Moko".
Look at this other buzz word: "Linux", M&Mme Dupond do not really
understand what it relates to. (Unix, free, freedom, even Mac
sometimes...;-)

_We_ need to know that it's actually Linux, or sometimes
{Free,Open,Net}BSD or X.org or GNU or etc.
I suspect we should only ask the average people to follow us [1], not to
understand the full software stack. That may even be beneficial in the
end.

Rodolphe

[1] Or possibly question the motivations of our participation more than
the various interpretations, a reaction that could prove even more
challenging if "average" Joe or Jane is really interested... ;-)

Le vendredi 20 juillet 2007 à 08:34 -0700, Ted Lemon a écrit :
> People who are interested in marketing OpenMoko might want to read  
> this article:
> 
>http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/07/ 
> just_because_it_saves_the_world.php
> 
> It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing  
> OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in  
> OpenMoko as something they care about.
> 
> 
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Re: Geek holsters

2007-07-20 Thread Jeff Andros


On 7/20/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


On Friday 20 July 2007 11:46, Ewan Oughton wrote:
> Has there been any research into any geek holsters that would fit
> the moko?

Check out this one:
http://tabletblog.com/2007/05/urban-tool-gadget-hip-holster-review.html

For me it is a little too geeky though ;-)

Felix

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if you want to go that route, the maxpedition versipacks are same idea,
different style...
http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=4

--
Jeff
O|||O
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Re: Marketing...


co
On 20 Jul 2007, at 19:48, Rodolphe Ortalo wrote:

I am not even sure they need to know about "Open" if only they are  
aware

of the "Moko".
Look at this other buzz word: "Linux", M&Mme Dupond do not really
understand what it relates to. (Unix, free, freedom, even Mac
sometimes...;-)


If the phone is in a shop then people will buy on looks and any POS  
literature.


If they are buying the phone online then the marketing will help, but  
still the phone's appearance will matter still.


A lot of people want a good looking device. I think the Neo1973 looks  
ok, but I've yet to see one in the flesh.


The fact that it is missing a camera will eliminate some buyers  
straight away. But people rate battery life, reception and sound  
quality more than camera when it comes to priorities (The Register  
did a survey).




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Re: Marketing...


On Jul 20, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Rodolphe Ortalo wrote:
I suspect we should only ask the average people to follow us [1],  
not to

understand the full software stack. That may even be beneficial in the
end.


This is precisely why I suggest reading the article.


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Re: Marketing...



On 20 Jul 2007, at 20:29, Jeff Andros wrote:




On 7/20/07, Giles Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
If the phone is in a shop then people will buy on looks and any POS
literature.


I just think back to when the razr  went on sale... people went to  
stores JUST to buy one... somehow we just have to generate that  
kind of buzz (is there someone who knows a celeb or two who's  
willing to be seen using our phone?)





If the phone looks nice many people buy it, if it looks average but  
the software is amazing then geeks buy it. If it looks good and the  
software is amazing then everyone buys it :)



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Re: community Digest, Vol 36, Issue 45

2007-07-20 Thread Ortwin Regel

On 7/20/07, Jeff Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Mathew Davis wrote:
>
> And I don't understand why we can't have both.  I really don't see the
> problem so if someone could explain why not having a forum would be
> advantageous and not just personal preferance I am all ears, because I
> could list a lot of reasons why forums could be advantageous.

I appreciate your viewpoint but here are a few reasons:

1. Our community is small -- spreading the discussions thinly before we
have
reached critical mass will dilute the synergy.  We are just now starting
to
come together as a community, and I think we even have too many mailing
lists
as it is (not always clear on which one to discuss X).

The community is artificially kept small by not providing a place for
non-developers to gather. I hate mailing lists and I only signed up on this
one because I'm desperate for OpenMoko information. Hundreds of other people
probably aren't quite as desperate or hate mailing lists even more but they
would have signed up at a forum.

2. The OpenMoko team at FIC are spread _very_ thin and lack the

time/resources
to research and establish a forum themselves.  They were overloaded just
getting a basic storefront up.  I don't understand why a company the size
of
FIC isn't providing more logistics support to them, so they can focus on
the
hardware/software but that's the way it is today.

3. Because of #2 and the fact this is the world of free/open, groups are
welcome to establish a forum someplace and announce it here.  In fact no
one
can stop it.  Then instead of debating it you apply the governance
principle
of open source, in that if you build it will they come.  If so, you were
right.  If not, you were wrong.  A very objective approach.

We need a central official forum. We've got an official mailing list, wiki
and chat. If efforts are not centralized, energy is wasted on answering the
same questions and discussing the same stuff parallel at three places. The
community probably isn't strong enough for THAT (yet).
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Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?

2007-07-20 Thread John Locke

Hi,

Jeff Rush asks,
> I'm curious what a non-programmer is going to do with this device in the next
> few months.  And if your first use of Linux is on the device itself, and you
> run Windows on your desktop, how you're going to grow your Linux skills and
> effectively develop applications.  Just seems odd to me, but maybe I'm
> overlooking something. ;-)
>
>   
Okay, I probably fall into this group, of non-programmers buying the
first available version... you tell me. I am a web programmer and system
administrator, and have built a company to five people now doing open
source web projects and system administration, but I've never learned C
or embedded development, and my coding expertise is limited to PHP,
Javascript, and a little Perl or Python here and there. So why did I do
one of the first 10 orders? (Order #1828 - still no credit card charge,
though)

1. I need a new PDA. My last one was a Palm V, and it died years ago.
I've been getting by without one, but as the company has grown, I find I
need better access to my addressbook/schedule, and a Smart Phone sounded
ideal. Just when I was starting to look (late last fall), the OpenMoko
project was announced, and my immediate thought was "that's it. That's
exactly what I want." I've even been thinking about buying a GPS, so
that's a nice bonus. I already have a decent camera, so I don't care
about that. And this week, my cell phone is starting to cut people off,
too--I'm hoping the OpenMoko dialer will be usable enough soon...

2. The idea of an open, Linux phone is irresistible. I have been using
Linux full time on the desktop/laptop for over 4 years, and on servers
for over 7. I spend as much time in a shell as I do in the rest of the
desktop. While I'm not really a programmer, I have no fear of setting up
a development environment and doing whatever is necessary to get it to
work, and I have no fear of seeing a console window or anything else
here. And the thought that maybe I could write some cool little
application in Python to do whatever I want the phone to do--that lowers
the bar to the point I just might start developing apps for the thing.

3. I'm patient. Mostly. I mean, I've been waiting 9 months for this
thing. I can't wait to get it in my hands, but once I have it, I don't
need it to be fully functional--I can wait a little longer for that, and
if I can help put the pieces together, maybe I can contribute something
to make it smoother for the next people to pick it up. I do have a
technical writing background ;-)

4. I want to evaluate it as a strategic direction for my company. I
think there could be lots of ways this could become a fantastic tool for
businesses who wouldn't think of it now... things like adding an RFID
reader/bar-code scanner and use it for warehouse inventories, hooked up
to LedgerSMB. Or creating a daily log file for commercial truck drivers,
automatically associating location and time and sending entries back to
the company's server. Or a home-inspection report that can be checked
off at the home, and when done, a report automatically emailed from the
company server to the customer and realtor. Or dozens of other custom
applications that have people doing things away from a computer, which
might be able to be hooked to a web application that uses OpenMoko as a
client. The earlier I get my hands on one, the sooner I can see how
realistic these ideas might be... and the sooner we can start working on
a platform for doing this type of thing that we'd happily contribute
back to the community.


I'll almost certainly get a GTA2 as well, and hand the GTA1 over to my
wife when it's usable enough...

P.S. I am going to Ubuntu Live on Sunday, at least to the exhibit hall
and the BOF... I'll look forward to meeting people there!

Cheers,

-- 
John Locke
"Open Source Solutions for Small Business Problems"
published by Charles River Media, June 2004
http://www.freelock.com


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Re: Geek holsters

2007-07-20 Thread Brad Pitcher

What about an armband holster for jogging?  I saw this generic one that I
liked:
http://www.shop.com/Tune_Belt_AB3_MP3_Player_Armband_-12294293-18446807-p!.shtml
but then I realized that it would be a pain in the butt without access to
the screen... unless someone figured out how to make the music control
buttons on some headphones work... ;)

On 7/20/07, Jeff Andros <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 7/20/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
wrote:
>
> On Friday 20 July 2007 11:46, Ewan Oughton wrote:
> > Has there been any research into any geek holsters that would fit
> > the moko?
>
> Check out this one:
> http://tabletblog.com/2007/05/urban-tool-gadget-hip-holster-review.html
>
> For me it is a little too geeky though ;-)
>
> Felix
>
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if you want to go that route, the maxpedition versipacks are same idea,
different style...
http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=4

--
Jeff
O|||O
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Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?

2007-07-20 Thread Ortwin Regel


Order #1833 here and not a developer at all. My last Linux experience was
that I changed the screen resolution in Suse 9 to something that didn't work
and wasn't able to change it back and get back to the GUI. :P Still, I need
this phone and I need it now. It's the phone I've been waiting for for about
four years. Pretty much since I got my Tapwave Zodiac and wondered what
would happen if it was also a phone. I love to be an early adopter, even if
it takes time for stuff to get usable. This is just too fascinating to wait
any longer. I'll probably buy a GTA 02 in October, too, and sell my GTA 01
or give it to one of my favourite Palm game developers if I'm feeling
generous.
I hope people will help me if I'm stuck in some scary command line. ;)

Ortwin Regel
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Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?



On 20 Jul 2007, at 22:25, Ortwin Regel wrote:

Order #1833 here and not a developer at all. My last Linux  
experience was that I changed the screen resolution in Suse 9 to  
something that didn't work and wasn't able to change it back and  
get back to the GUI. :P Still, I need this phone and I need it now.  
It's the phone I've been waiting for for about four years. Pretty  
much since I got my Tapwave Zodiac and wondered what would happen  
if it was also a phone. I love to be an early adopter, even if it  
takes time for stuff to get usable. This is just too fascinating to  
wait any longer. I'll probably buy a GTA 02 in October, too, and  
sell my GTA 01 or give it to one of my favourite Palm game  
developers if I'm feeling generous.

I hope people will help me if I'm stuck in some scary command line. ;)

Ortwin Regel


No, you want the phone. :P

At the moment it's not a fully working device, it will do very  
little. It will be frustrating to have a phone which does nothing. If  
you haven't ever had to flash a phone or use recovery methods to  
repair a bricked phone then you'll end up with a paperweight.


I've not done much embedded development for a while, my background is  
in C development. I started on the Amiga and wrote some MIDI software  
such as MIDI drivers, audio output plugins. I did embedded  
development for a year, developing firmware for network hardware.  
Trust me, even I am a little nervous about having a Neo and not being  
able to contribute. So if you're not a developer you'll feel even  
more frustrated and impatient.


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Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?

2007-07-20 Thread Mark Eichin

Giles Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On 20 Jul 2007, at 22:25, Ortwin Regel wrote:
>
>> Order #1833 here and not a developer at all. My last Linux
>> experience was that I changed the screen resolution in Suse 9 to
>> something that didn't work and wasn't able to change it back and
>> get back to the GUI. :P Still, I need this phone and I need it now.
>> It's the phone I've been waiting for for about four years. Pretty
>> much since I got my Tapwave Zodiac and wondered what would happen
>> if it was also a phone. I love to be an early adopter, even if it
>> takes time for stuff to get usable. This is just too fascinating to
>> wait any longer. I'll probably buy a GTA 02 in October, too, and
>> sell my GTA 01 or give it to one of my favourite Palm game
>> developers if I'm feeling generous.
>> I hope people will help me if I'm stuck in some scary command line. ;)
>>
>> Ortwin Regel
>
> No, you want the phone. :P
>
> At the moment it's not a fully working device, it will do very
> little. It will be frustrating to have a phone which does nothing. If
> you haven't ever had to flash a phone or use recovery methods to
> repair a bricked phone then you'll end up with a paperweight.
>
> I've not done much embedded development for a while, my background is
> in C development. I started on the Amiga and wrote some MIDI software
> such as MIDI drivers, audio output plugins. I did embedded
> development for a year, developing firmware for network hardware.
> Trust me, even I am a little nervous about having a Neo and not being
> able to contribute. So if you're not a developer you'll feel even
> more frustrated and impatient.
>
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This isn't early adopter - this is *pre* adopter - I'd suggest that
the 02 model is going to be early adopter, realistically...

I ordered one because I think I'm ready to do something useful with
it, because
  * I've already done some of the relevant code in python on my Nokia
6630 with an external GPS 
  * I've done from-scratch build and installs for the Gumstix
  * embedded gcc/g++ used to be my full-time job (anyone remember Cygnus? :-)
  * I've written code on an iCreate too
  * I've used an oscilliscope within the last 6 months...

Remember that the one recent live demo we've seen (on youtube, that
user's group meeting) involved several iterations of killing and
restarting daemons from a remote session on a laptop, and answering a
call with AT commands; while we *hope* it's a little more solid than
that, I'm expecting that to be part of the debugging to be done in the
first batch.

Remember also that this one doesn't have 802.11, so until you build
yourself a power+usbwifi lashup, it won't really count as a PDA either
(why yes, after about 2005 if it doesn't have net it's not really a PDA :-)

(I'm also expecting to pick up a cheap pay-as-you go SIM for operating
the FIC with, since I actually still need to call and SMS people :-)

There's also some gadget-lust going on - I'd probably buy this phone
*without* a software install, if it had sufficiently documented
hardware, just because (esp. as an Amateur Radio operator) it's the
level of control I believe I *should* have of a piece of hardware that
I'm paying for.

It's pretty clear from this list that there are a lot of wildly
varying fantasies built up around the phone, but I don't think
anything we've heard officially that suggests that anyone for whom a
command line is "scary" is going to get any value out of it...

_Mark_ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
The Herd Of Kittens

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Re: Shipping, Billing, etc

2007-07-20 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Rodolphe Ortalo wrote:

Le jeudi 19 juillet 2007 à 13:35 -0700, Daniel Robinson a écrit :

My number was 3585.  Does that mean there are 1747 nerds ahead of me?


Hmm, possible. But maybe there are even more after you... Comforting
no? ;-)



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My order was assigned ID# 2012.  I placed my order 4 hours and 36 
minutes after Sean's "Get them while they're hot" email came out.  I 
also got the "YES_I_DO" email, and YES_I_DID.  I haven't gotten any 
other reply since then and my credit card hasn't been charged yet either.


~~ I dream of Moko! ~~

/.Cassj~
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Nice coverage over at the Economist

2007-07-20 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]


FYI...

http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9531007


AlsoJust wonderin'Has anyone been delivered their phone yet??  

Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller? 


mail2web.com  Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft®
Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail



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Re: Marketing...

2007-07-20 Thread Torfinn Ingolfsen


Hello,

On 7/20/07, Ted Lemon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing
OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in
OpenMoko as something they care about.


Don't do rthat then. As in "don't limit the marketing to only focus on
the Open part". The Open part will only get to the people who are
really, interested anyway.

So how do we get all the Jane's and Joe's hooked then?
Easy; think up (or "invent" if you like) design and implement at least
three killer apps (think functionality here) before the phone is
launched for the masses. Make sure that we have enough feedback so
these killer apps are so easy to use as possible.
Oh, and these killer apps must be something new; not seen on a phone before.

Which means that none of the following will do it (just examples):
- camera
- bluetooth headset
- bluetooth remote control

(I'm not saying that these should be left out, I'm just saying that
they aren't killer apps anymore)

A few things that might work:
- good GPS functionality
- getting pictures / other data from another device via bluetooth
(from your camera for example)
- a MythTV remote control via WLAN (but MythTV is probably known to
only a very narrow group)

And my personal favorite:
- allow the user to send a message (SMS) to another person which
inlcludes the users current location as a POI / waypoint. If the other
user have another phone, he or she will only get a standard SMS
message. If she or he has a Neo, they can (automatically) loookup that
location on a map.

I'm sure you all can think of a few others.
--
Regards,
Torfinn

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Re: Marketing...

2007-07-20 Thread Andy Loughran

Keep it simple.

Users don't want to know it's got hammerhead GPS, or runs on Linux.  They want 
to know that it is reliable, cna do for them what their current phone does - 
and be aware of how the extra stuff can benefit them.

I like the idea of sending a quick sms with your coordinates, that gets read on 
a neo and places someone on a map - but I think that this would need to be a 
unique procedure - rather than embedded with a normal sms.  Good Idea though.

I'm getting excited more and more about the potential for the neo - even with 
the hardware it currently has the ability to create mash-up software of all of 
these different functionalities is fantastic, but at the end of the day it's 
about selling it to the end users.

I think the focus should be on the integration of utilities in a way that _you_ 
choose.  People might think 'ooh that GPS location message is a good idea, for 
only the costs of a single text.  wouldn't it be good if...'

The job of the marketing group is to build on that if... to provide people with 
a sense of individuality as well as being part of a bigger picture.

Since 1973, phones have been generic and very 'industrial.'  Customisation has 
been lax.  Phones are now a personal item, so the ability to customise is 
paramount in many peoples minds.  We need to make this clear.

It's not just a Penguin Phone.. it's your Penguin Phone.

Andy Loughran
www.zrmt.com
m: 07921076319

- Original Message -
From: "Torfinn Ingolfsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "OpenMoko" 
Sent: 21 July 2007 00:25:33 o'clock (GMT) Europe/London
Subject: Re: Marketing...

Hello,

On 7/20/07, Ted Lemon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing
> OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in
> OpenMoko as something they care about.

Don't do rthat then. As in "don't limit the marketing to only focus on
the Open part". The Open part will only get to the people who are
really, interested anyway.

So how do we get all the Jane's and Joe's hooked then?
Easy; think up (or "invent" if you like) design and implement at least
three killer apps (think functionality here) before the phone is
launched for the masses. Make sure that we have enough feedback so
these killer apps are so easy to use as possible.
Oh, and these killer apps must be something new; not seen on a phone before.

Which means that none of the following will do it (just examples):
- camera
- bluetooth headset
- bluetooth remote control

(I'm not saying that these should be left out, I'm just saying that
they aren't killer apps anymore)

A few things that might work:
- good GPS functionality
- getting pictures / other data from another device via bluetooth
(from your camera for example)
- a MythTV remote control via WLAN (but MythTV is probably known to
only a very narrow group)

And my personal favorite:
- allow the user to send a message (SMS) to another person which
inlcludes the users current location as a POI / waypoint. If the other
user have another phone, he or she will only get a standard SMS
message. If she or he has a Neo, they can (automatically) loookup that
location on a map.

I'm sure you all can think of a few others.
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn

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Re: Marketing...


On Jul 20, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:

It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing
OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in
OpenMoko as something they care about.


Don't do rthat then. As in "don't limit the marketing to only focus on
the Open part". The Open part will only get to the people who are
really, interested anyway.


I guess reading the article before commenting on it would be too much  
to ask?



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Re: Marketing...

2007-07-20 Thread openmoko

I think most people are jumping way too far ahead..

If this is to be used by anyone other than linux geeks it has to have
windows support.  It has to synch with outlook.  If it does not work
seemlessly with windows, it will never have mass appeal (and maybe thats
the goal??)  Users need to be able to drag and drop files between the
device and windows.  Mp3's, pictures, and to some degree videos need to be
user friendly to move between the 2..  Videos need atleast a converter app
to run on windows to resample to something the neo can handle with the
simple push of 1 button..

The ability to customize this forever is a good thing, it needs to be
available.  But i think to the end user it has to be hidden.  No average
joe wants to spend 5 hours a day re-building the tip of the kernel so he
can ftp the latest new kids on the block track to his phone, and then ssh
in to start it playing

All of these apps and ideas are awesome.  I hope to be active in writing
some of these.. But for this to be more than a science experiment and
become a viable product for the masses, it all has to be dumbed down and
point and click and work without thinking about it..

Maybe I stated the obvious, but I would like this phone to be a success
and thats how i see it happening.. start with the basics...

thanks for listening

PS - I vote for a forum





> Keep it simple.
>
> Users don't want to know it's got hammerhead GPS, or runs on Linux.  They
> want to know that it is reliable, cna do for them what their current phone
> does - and be aware of how the extra stuff can benefit them.
>
> I like the idea of sending a quick sms with your coordinates, that gets
> read on a neo and places someone on a map - but I think that this would
> need to be a unique procedure - rather than embedded with a normal sms.
> Good Idea though.
>
> I'm getting excited more and more about the potential for the neo - even
> with the hardware it currently has the ability to create mash-up software
> of all of these different functionalities is fantastic, but at the end of
> the day it's about selling it to the end users.
>
> I think the focus should be on the integration of utilities in a way that
> _you_ choose.  People might think 'ooh that GPS location message is a good
> idea, for only the costs of a single text.  wouldn't it be good if...'
>
> The job of the marketing group is to build on that if... to provide people
> with a sense of individuality as well as being part of a bigger picture.
>
> Since 1973, phones have been generic and very 'industrial.'  Customisation
> has been lax.  Phones are now a personal item, so the ability to customise
> is paramount in many peoples minds.  We need to make this clear.
>
> It's not just a Penguin Phone.. it's your Penguin Phone.
>
> 
> Andy Loughran
> www.zrmt.com
> m: 07921076319
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Torfinn Ingolfsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "OpenMoko" 
> Sent: 21 July 2007 00:25:33 o'clock (GMT) Europe/London
> Subject: Re: Marketing...
>
> Hello,
>
> On 7/20/07, Ted Lemon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing
>> OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in
>> OpenMoko as something they care about.
>
> Don't do rthat then. As in "don't limit the marketing to only focus on
> the Open part". The Open part will only get to the people who are
> really, interested anyway.
>
> So how do we get all the Jane's and Joe's hooked then?
> Easy; think up (or "invent" if you like) design and implement at least
> three killer apps (think functionality here) before the phone is
> launched for the masses. Make sure that we have enough feedback so
> these killer apps are so easy to use as possible.
> Oh, and these killer apps must be something new; not seen on a phone
> before.
>
> Which means that none of the following will do it (just examples):
> - camera
> - bluetooth headset
> - bluetooth remote control
>
> (I'm not saying that these should be left out, I'm just saying that
> they aren't killer apps anymore)
>
> A few things that might work:
> - good GPS functionality
> - getting pictures / other data from another device via bluetooth
> (from your camera for example)
> - a MythTV remote control via WLAN (but MythTV is probably known to
> only a very narrow group)
>
> And my personal favorite:
> - allow the user to send a message (SMS) to another person which
> inlcludes the users current location as a POI / waypoint. If the other
> user have another phone, he or she will only get a standard SMS
> message. If she or he has a Neo, they can (automatically) loookup that
> location on a map.
>
> I'm sure you all can think of a few others.
> --
> Regards,
> Torfinn
>
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>
>
>
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Re: Significant Numbers of Non-Developers?

2007-07-20 Thread Oliver


Just joined the list, hope this message ends up where it's supposed to go.
I'm an it-hobbyist who is proficient in a number of languages and has some
linux (and bash) exposure. I bet there are lots of people like me who
salivate over this phone.

What drives my lust for it the most is to dynamically switch between voip
and gsm depending on availability, to cut down costs and to make it possible
for me to live without a land-line-phone, but still with costs lower than
that.

Oh, and all of the cool apps that have been discussed in the list over the
last three days.

Oliver
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Re: Marketing...

2007-07-20 Thread Tim Newsom



On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:47, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
/snip
user friendly to move between the 2..  Videos need atleast a converter 
app

to run on windows to resample to something the neo can handle with the
simple push of 1 button..



/quietly patents 1-Click converting
--Tim

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Re: Marketing...


On Jul 20, 2007, at 5:10 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Maybe I stated the obvious, but I would like this phone to be a  
success

and thats how i see it happening.. start with the basics...


Like the iPhone, you mean?   :')

Of course it would be great to be able to sync with Microsoft  
Exchange, and if someone takes that on it'll be great, but you can't  
legislate volunteer effort.   Something like that is a royal pain in  
the neck, so it probably won't happen if it's not funded.   If you  
care about it, you might want to take it on.


But even if you don't, we have the example of the iPhone - you can  
sell at least a half million units without Exchange support!



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Tally of Order ID's

2007-07-20 Thread Cosmo

While we wait for our Neo's to arrive, maybe we could all whip-out our 
order ID #'s and compare them (you know...see who's got the biggest)


I've got an 1870 I was quite proud of until recently.  While I did the 
YES_I_DO, I still haven't heard anything since then.  Nor has my card 
been charged.


Anyone else?

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Re: Marketing... aGPS uses

AGPS is where focus needs to be.  This natural (and free) comparative 
advantage needs to be developed to attract new developers and customers.


1. Silent/loud/vibrate depending on location, programmable or based on 
courtesy settings-- max goes silent near schools, libraries, etc.
2. shopping list/reminder if you drive walk by something, walk into 
costco/supermarket weekly sales paper appears
3. Lost phone mode - send a text to your phone, get coordinates back, 
remote change silent to ring mode.
4. Stolen phone mode - broadcast alarm when ever turned on or gives 
location for police.  Remotely retrieve SIM/IEMI/phone book for 
identification.
5. Auto sync location dependent - arrive at home wifi/bt turn on and 
attempt to sync, sync when movement is sensed in the morning
6. Neo tracking - family plan able to track users at a distance or 
locally.  Maybe an alert when within wifi range, sms/alert when phone 
deviates from expected location or arrives.
7. Neo ping - wifi/bt in conjunction with accelerometers able to find 
location phones when aGPS is unavailable. short distance
8. Vanilla GPS mapping - POI, trip tip, traffic, follow me, statistics 
of trip (rate of travel, mph...), sight seeing, etc.  aGPS updated via 
SMS/WiFi/GPRS.  Maps cached to SD card.
9. Broadcast - friends want to meet somewhere or where you currently 
are, you can select gps location or current location to broadcast to 
people you select in contacts menu. Maybe mute, end call, and 
accept/send gps buttons while in call.
10. Weather tracker - gives estimate of how long before front/severe 
weather will reach current location. Might give false 
positives/inaccurate time.  Highlight areas that are flooded and map around.
11. Business Phone number ping - gets phone numbers of businesses in 
current location, may also opt for website instead.
12. Coverage mapper - ability to remember when phone loses GSM coverage, 
warn next time about dead spot or have ability for all users to submit 
data to compile more realistic coverage maps
13. Gas prices/Highway driving - calculates best/safest/cheapest rest 
areas or exits for gas.  Able to input car MPG and let neo tell you 
which exits to get off for gas.  Maybe interface with gasbuddy on the 
fly to get the cheapest gas.  Maybe suggest more efficient routes after 
comparing month of driving data.
14. Language/currency/dialing codes - changes as you drive, of course it 
can be locked to your language.  Might help visitors as they travel, 
helpful phrases/translation, current currency conversion--how much, 
normal prices, etc.
15. Crime geocode - warns when entering high crime area, reminds to lock 
doors, etc.
16. WiFi mapper - remembers past locations or finds new ones and where 
coverage ended/began
17. Public transport - sync with train/bus/subway schedule, realtime 
updates or just provide normal times.
18. Panic mode - disables power off switch, dims LCD, and locks keybad, 
dials 911/sends coordinates/emergency number, must have battery removed 
to stop and should give time enough for automated dialing of 
help---might get abused.
19. Sports mode - for runners, bikers, etc.  Follow me, journey 
statistics, pace, laps, etc.
20. Charging patterns - remembers where battery dies, suggests to charge 
when stopped after calculating when/where your neo usually dies after 
last stop.

21. Social - IM, games, etc when near other neos.
22. Adhoc wifi/bt VoIP/PTT connection - GSM disabled when reaching 
certain sites, maybe construction/fleet, phones would only be able to 
VoIP/PTT between phones--limited use and range without AP/repeater


Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:

Hello,

On 7/20/07, Ted Lemon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing
OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in
OpenMoko as something they care about.


Don't do rthat then. As in "don't limit the marketing to only focus on
the Open part". The Open part will only get to the people who are
really, interested anyway.

So how do we get all the Jane's and Joe's hooked then?
Easy; think up (or "invent" if you like) design and implement at least
three killer apps (think functionality here) before the phone is
launched for the masses. Make sure that we have enough feedback so
these killer apps are so easy to use as possible.
Oh, and these killer apps must be something new; not seen on a phone 
before.


Which means that none of the following will do it (just examples):
- camera
- bluetooth headset
- bluetooth remote control

(I'm not saying that these should be left out, I'm just saying that
they aren't killer apps anymore)

A few things that might work:
- good GPS functionality
- getting pictures / other data from another device via bluetooth
(from your camera for example)
- a MythTV remote control via WLAN (but MythTV is probably known to
only a very narrow group)

And my personal favorite:
- allow the user to send a message (SMS) to another person which
inlcludes the

Re: Tally of Order ID's